COMMENTS: 224
Hitchens Gets Waterboarded, Withdraws from Iraq in 11 Seconds
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Hitchens announced the news like he'd brought it down from Mount Sinai, in a Vanity Fair article. "Believe me," he told a waiting nation, "it's torture." Well, yeah. It usually is, when it happens to you. When it happens to somebody else, it's "extreme interrogation." I thought everybody over the age of 5 knew that, but as usual, I misoverestimated the media. Hitchens' tame little torture session is the biggest S&M video on the web since "9½ Weeks."
Hitchens' video is totally fake -- there's even soft-rock background music playing on the video, better music than you usually get at the dentist's office, and his "interrogators" treat him more like a client getting a mud pack at a spa than a real suspect in Iraq. That makes it even more disgusting that Hitch caved in after only 11 seconds of having water poured over a towel on his face. Eleven seconds! Think about the timeline here: For five long years he supported this stuff when it was happening to other people. Once it happened to him, he needed exactly 11 seconds to see the light.
Of course if Hitchens had been a real Iraqi suspect, they'd never have had to waterboard him at all. They do that to tough suspects, not wimps like him. In a real torture cell, everything would be a lot tougher from the start. For example, Chris wouldn't be in the nice dress shirt and slacks he's wearing on the video. He'd be naked -- a gross image, what a lifetime of booze and lying does to the body, but we have to be hard-nosed here -- because keeping the prisoner naked is basic interrogation strategy, especially with a culture as horrified of gettin' nekkid as Arabs are. You'll recall that in those Abu Ghraib pictures, the prisoners were naked.
So that's fake already, and the video gets faker as it goes. The guys "interrogating" him are fat, middle-aged, mild-mannered dudes. They don't even yell at him. A real suspect in Iraq would be snatched off the street, smacked around until he passes out, stripped and dumped into a cell with a hood over his head. He wouldn't be able to sleep off his misery, either, because sleep deprivation is one of the oldest, most effective tortures. The interrogators would maintain this schedule for hours, days, weeks, depending on how well and how soon the victim breaks down. When they think he's ready -- like, they notice with satisfaction that he screams like a steam whistle every time he hears footsteps in the corridor -- they drag him out of his cell and strap him onto that waterboarding table.
Well, Chris is a busy man and didn't have time for all that background research, so what you see in this video is a guy who hasn't been so much as slapped or yelled at. Who probably just finished a 10-martini lunch at some upscale restaurant. That's ridiculous enough, but the interrogators make it even more ridiculous with their little introduction to the torture session. One guy says, "All right, listen up, I'm going to give you some instructions ..." Then he tells the fat man on the table, "We're going to place metal objects in each of your hands," and if he feels "unbearable stress" at any time, all he has to do is drop the objects and they'll stop.
I've had dentists who did root canals on me without being that nice; they stuck to "this is going to hurt." More to the point here, putting the victim in "unbearable stress" is, uh, the whole point of torture, or "extreme interrogation," or whatever you want to call it. The last thing you'd ever do is give the victim a sense of power, like he can stop the process by dropping a "metal object" on the floor.
That kind of etiquette is what you get from those expensive dominatrixes English dudes like to get whipped by, or those nerf BDSM sites that talk about "consensual power exchanges." What reminded me most of those BDSM sites is the "code word" they tell Hitchens he can use to stop the waterboarding: "That word is red, R-E-D." They ask him if he understands and he says, "Yes, sir." That "sir" only added to the ridiculous porn feel here, like Hitchens was paying a hundred pounds an hour to have Baron Whipsong or Lady Cruella, whichever way he likes it, wear out their riding crop on his eager little bum.
The real thing isn't nearly so nice. After you've been beaten on bruises (which hurt more each time) for a few days, they slam the cell door open, screaming abuse at you, kick you to your feet and take you down the corridor, slamming your head into the walls as often as they feel like it, and strap you down. And all the time they're screaming: "OK, you worthless (Arabic obscenity here) -- We're through with you! We don't even want you any more! Ever drown before, (obscenity)? Ever go swimming head-first, (obscenity)?"
If you remember "The Big Lebowski," you can get a better idea of what waterboarding is like by remembering the scene where the Dude walks into his bungalow, where Jackie Treehorn's yuppie thugs are waiting for him. The blond one grabs the Dude's hair and runs him headfirst into the toilet, screaming, "Where's the money, Lebowski? Where's the money, shithead?" See, the point is to show overwhelming, terrifying power over the suspect, not give him little safety words.
But all that niceness doesn't matter once the torturer's helper takes a plastic milk container full of water and pours it, bit by bit, over a towel covering Hitch's face. The "metal object," whatever it is, drops after 11 seconds. And of course these fake interrogators are all over Hitch, making sure he's OK. That's also totally fake, but why bother listing any more fake features of this nonsense? The truth is that anybody who's been through as much dentistry as I have knows that nobody holds out under torture. It's not just the pain, it's the fear of the pain. I used to try to be a hero like the ones in my war books every time I went to have a root canal from the mean old Armenian who did our dental work. He scrimped on the Novocain, so I had plenty of scope to practice. And I learned the same thing any sane person knows by the time they grow up: Nobody can resist torture. Just like anybody knows what having water poured over a towel on your face is like: It's like drowning. Duh. Anybody who wanted to know that already knew it.
So why does Hitchens make such a big show of just realizing it now, after five years of supporting it? To me, the answer's easy: He's withdrawing from Iraq, making a big Jesus-on-the-cross demonstration, like a public punishment, for supporting the war all this time. By getting himself tortured in this half-assed way, he gives himself a reason to see the light, desert from the Neocon forces before it's too late. Karl Rove won't be happy, though, because the last thing the GOP wants is for people to start realizing what we're actually doing in Iraq. Reminds me of the debate about abolishing flogging with the cat-o'-nine-tails in the British Navy. The first time the bill was introduced, everybody laughed at how ridiculous a notion that was. Then somebody thought of having a real cat-o'-nine-tails introduced to the House of Commons, a bloody old Exhibit A. Nobody said a thing; they just voted unanimously to forbid it.
That's all it takes to change anybody's mind about torture, getting one little 11-second whiff of it, even if it's nowhere close to the real thing. The interesting thing is not that Hitchens changed his mind; it's the strategic thinking that made him decide to do it now. The timing of this little martyr is the key here, and what it tells you is that Hitchens is declaring martyrdom and getting out. He just unilaterally withdrew from Iraq, and in only 11 seconds.
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 2, 2008 6:53 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And he had to grandstand, because any drivel that he writes is all about he, himself and him, as the centerpiece of our attention as he tells us what's up.
The number's been up on his self-aggrandizing crap for quite a while now.
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» RE: Christopher Hitchens now knows what any seven-year-old would have told him.
Posted by: Expired
» Dolan rants
Posted by: Richard House
» Troll
Posted by: chuckjs
» RE: Troll
Posted by: Richard House
» GAWRSH!!! Mr. Hitchens!!! You done changed your name!!!!!
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
» RE: Christopher Hitchens now knows what any seven-year-old would have told him.
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Christopher Hitchens now knows what any seven-year-old would have told him.
Posted by: Richard House
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Posted by: robgo2b on Jul 2, 2008 8:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: christianslayer1955
» Christoffer Hitchens is a reformed communist
Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist
» RE: Christoffer Hitchens is a reformed communist
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Christoffer Hitchens is a reformed communist
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Christoffer Hitchens is [(Do you know what Ad Hominem means?)
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: FrozenFox
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: FrozenFox
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: Expired
» lot of assumptions
Posted by: Richard House
» RE: What's Wrong With Assumptions?
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: lot of assumptions
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: lot of assumptions
Posted by: masthead
» RE: lot of assumptions
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: robgo2b
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: kenhymes
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: robgo2b
» I'll provide my own reference that Hitchens is not pro-torture.
Posted by: robgo2b
» RE: I'll provide my own reference that Hitchens is not pro-torture.
Posted by: Expired
» RE: I'll provide my own reference that Hitchens is not pro-torture.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I'll provide my own reference that Hitchens is not pro-torture.
Posted by: Joni50
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Posted by: Expired on Jul 2, 2008 9:04 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're obviously simply posting complete bullshit in order to smear him either for his stance against religion (more bullshit) and his pro stance on the Iraq war. He simply has good arguments, you however, do not.
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» snicker
Posted by: owlbear1
» RE: Fake Video?
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Fake Video?
Posted by: Expired
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 2, 2008 9:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Lauren on Jul 3, 2008 4:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the uncle Tom agreeing with him today, I used to like that guy. What a creep.
Anyone who would argue FOR the telecoms' immunity (including themselves - how awkward!) is obviously in the tank with the drug dealers like McCain. They don't just deal in drugs, but also in people.
Anyone defending FISA spying is also defending torture and slavery. It makes me very angry to hear that kind of hate speech, especially from a black man.
It is not a harmless thing they were doing or they wouldn't have been doing it against the law, in secret. Use your head man!
"Doing Iran." Wow what a term, we raped Iraq, now we go do her sister. Sick bastards on TV.
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» RE: Watching Pat Buchanan makes me sick, literally
Posted by: herronsmith
» RE: Watching Pat Buchanan makes me sick, literally
Posted by: Lauren
» ??
Posted by: emmas
» RE: ??
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: jumping the shark
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: Watching Pat Buchanan makes me sick, literally
Posted by: Joni50
» uhh...
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: uhh...
Posted by: Lauren
» Maybe a blog would be a better place for this kind of commentary
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: Maybe a blog would be a better place for this kind of commentary
Posted by: NicoSuave
» RE: Maybe a blog would be a better place for this kind of commentary
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: uhh...
Posted by: lovercat2942
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Posted by: hester on Jul 3, 2008 4:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitchens wrote an article in 11/01 quite clearly stating his opposition to torture. John Dolan is blinded by his ideology.
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» RE: OMG
Posted by: Erik1968
» RE: OMG
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: He's just reading the handwriting on the wall.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: OMG
Posted by: Expired
» RE: OMG
Posted by: mkdelta69
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Jul 3, 2008 4:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am looking forward to reading Hitchens' article, which I expect to contain a lot more insight than this one.
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» RE: Why all the personal attacks?
Posted by: Erik1968
» RE: Why all the personal attacks?
Posted by: Lector
» RE: Why all the personal attacks?
Posted by: nolafugees
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Posted by: eksommer on Jul 3, 2008 4:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: Turiye
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: Lauren
» Native American religious leader?
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: lovercat2942
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: Quannah
» In the interests of accuracy, John Yoo (not Woo) is of Korean, not Chinese, ancestry.
Posted by: mclemens
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Posted by: Turiye on Jul 3, 2008 5:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We kidnap and TORTURE people now, we F$$ked every Article of the Constitution, 2 Rights that the Murderer hasn't declared gone sight unseen, 2 and 10. We have children, women and mentally impaired at GITMO, we added to their plight by TORTURING them, burying them alive and the ones left I can assure you suffer from every mental disease known to mankind by now, PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, Psychosis of all names and we've made them great Terrorists by now. [which they weren't before] Man the lot of you are so self-absorbed all you've ranted about is poor Hitchen's, Torture is the problem, I could give two shits @ Hitchen's.
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» RE: Is this the Hitchen's fan club or is this article really about Torture, Stay on topic...
Posted by: popsicle67
» RE: Yelling and Bolding?
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Is this the Hitchen's fan club or is this article really about Torture, Stay on topic...
Posted by: robgo2b
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Posted by: lively56 on Jul 3, 2008 5:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Thank You Mr. John Dolan
Posted by: Vik
» Thank You Mr. John Dolan
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: nolafugees on Jul 3, 2008 5:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where's the links to articles in which Hitch advocates waterboarding, or other nefarious and disgusting, undemocratic tortures?
As far as I've read, Hitchens has never advocated torture, and in fact one of the primary reasons for his initial support of the war in Iraq was the continued human rights violations of the Hussein regime.
Hitchens sees himself in the tradition of Orwell, an individual who's youth was spent far to the Left, so far to the Left it becomes the Right. Hitchens has advocated the toppling of dictators for the whole of his career, has written resolutely against totalitarianism and fascism (to the extent that he even uses the terms- something the current popular Left runs from); he's come out solidly critical of Conservative deities (Thatcher, Reagan, Kissinger, Pinochet, Churchill) and advocated a harder, more clear eyed Left response than Dolan's mealy, millenial liberalism.
Sadly, this article stinks of an audition for the Huffington Post; as journalists, ad hominem attacks do not become us, but they are fun, and provide the opportunity for young, internet teens to slay that most deadly of beasts: our fathers.
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» RE: Puerile Polemic
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Puerile Polemic
Posted by: nolafugees
» RE: Puerile Polemic
Posted by: BigElectricCat
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Posted by: EinMD on Jul 3, 2008 5:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which is more than you can say for all the people who advocated the use of this technique against real targets.
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» RE: Of course it's fake you douchebag!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Of course it's fake you douchebag!
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: Quasar on Jul 3, 2008 6:23 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 3, 2008 6:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do yourself a favor--don't debate with them, just let them bore each other to death.
Want to know who they are?
They'll be the ones ranting their outrage in response to this comment.
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» RE: The Trolls Are Here Already.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Trolls Are Here Already.
Posted by: robgo2b
» RE: The Trolls Are Here Already.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: eirikr on Jul 3, 2008 7:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The points about the difference between this experiment and the actual torture that occurs in the field are valid, but they don't detract from what Hitchens has done.
How can you be against torture, and at the same time call Hitchens a wimp and this experiment a sham because it just wasn't cruel enough?
This is a ridiculous article, stick to topics you know something about: coked out rock stars and fake memoirs.
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Posted by: OnlyJesusSaves on Jul 3, 2008 7:22 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com
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» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Kcanadensis
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Expired
» What has Morality got to do with the Bible?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Baloney, sir....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: gradioc
» RE: More unspeakable things than can even be imagined.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: robgo2b
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: scearfo
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: scearfo
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Squarehead
» Tell US, please, OJSaves, how you reached the conclusion that only believers have ethics
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: ozonehole on Jul 3, 2008 7:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All that having been said, in the interests of responsible journalism it would be nice if Alternet would invite Christopher Hitchens to respond. That would be "fair and balanced."
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» Let Christopher Hitchens respond
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Hitchens respond??
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hitchens respond??
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Hitchens respond??
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: let Christopher Hitchens respond
Posted by: sumac3
» What Constitution?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: let Christopher Hitchens respond
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Let Christopher Hitchens go to hell.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: coldmoon on Jul 3, 2008 7:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: You're a very good writer and you're spot on about Hitchens
Posted by: robgo2b
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Posted by: avatar_singh on Jul 3, 2008 7:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
see and watch todays bbc and realize how much bbc and other british propaganda machinary is responsible for bush war crimes.
He also assuredly told that this "white house is quite safe"as wished for by the british ofocurse. during gore-bush florida tussle bbc was advocating gore to leave bush alone as britian was waiting for american missile defence to come her shore soon and so no delay in small matter of who should be presidentof usa be allowed.d-bit belicve it? look at all british propaganda between 1st novembr till 20th novembr of 2000.
it is high time that engish spies in american establishment be eliminated..
it is high time that these english spies in usa are taken care of .
also during and after the gulf war(first iraq war) the british were taking full creidit for insitagating bush 1 to start and persue war agasint iraq. the reason war criminal blair diidnto take full creidt for iraq war 2 was because that went sour(failure has no fathers claming thiers). itis a fact that merciless war done by america has benen perpetauted by the british agents inside america( and not some indepdnet israli agents as claimed-it jsut so happend that only know israli interest happend to coinside with those of english parasites -that is why war on and for behalf of england is being waged by america the world over.
By the way in IN '88 when Dalai lama, at the height of Tibetan disturbances, visited west, the then british prime minister refused to meet Him. Later on with the demise of Russia and usefulness of China gone and with manipulation to keep power in Hong Kong somehow intact, the same british media and government ,like dog, started barking at China. It is interesting that amnesty international selectively targets those very countries( as it did china after cold war) who are out of favour (because they would not be a british stooge) of the british media and govt. This is not surprising as amnesty international is the creation of british govt, and british media. england with the most appalling record of human rights in last 200 years of her evil rule, needed some organisation to keep the others from charging england off her past and current evil practices. In other words it went for aggressive posture in propaganda war so that others can be demoralized and stopped from pointing out the real evil which is england. That is why amnesty international is one armour of the british lies to exploit the rest of the world. Amnesty international must be ignored and an independent human watchdog (which england will simply ignore) created. One purpose of amnesty international is to create an atmosphere for hatred towards the would be victims of british exploitation so that a victim could be blamed to have deserved the consequences. That is why ,now amnesty international sometimes threatens China, sometimes India and etc.
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» RE: I support torture-for the likes of christopher Hitichins like british parasites.
Posted by: Expired
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Posted by: avatar_singh on Jul 3, 2008 7:47 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apart from various Islamic preachers, two major Islamic groups function in the Ferghana Valley, whose common objective is to change the regimes in Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Kazakhstan. These are the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) and the HT. While the IMU openly thrives on violence, the HT is strongly promoted by the United Kingdom, where it is headquartered, as peaceful. But records indicate that that the IMU and the HT work hand-in-hand. Most of the IMU recruits are from the HT, according to Rohan Gunaratna, an expert on world terrorist outfits. Gunaratna claims that Khaled Sheikh Muhammad, the alleged mastermind of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks in the US, and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian of Chechen origin who has remained active in the Iraqi insurgency against the US occupying forces, were both once members of the HT. . . .
The West's policy - in other words, the policy of the Anglo-Americans, as the European Union does not have a policy worth citing - toward the Middle East has long been formulated by Bernard Lewis. The British-born Lewis started his career as an intelligence officer and has remained in bed with British intelligence ever since. Avowedly anti-Russia and pro-Israel, Lewis reaped a rich harvest among US academia and policymakers. He brought president Jimmy Carter's virulently anti-Russian National Security Council chief, Zbigniew Brzezinski, into his fold in the 1980s, and made the US neo-conservatives, led by Vice President Dick Cheney, dance to his tune on the Middle East in 2001. In between, he penned dozens of books and was taken seriously by people as a historian. But, in fact, Lewis is what he always was: a British intelligence officer. . . .
The recent developments in Uzbekistan have all the hallmarks of the same process. This time the objective is to weaken China, Russia, and possibly India, using the HT to unleash the dogs of war in Central Asia. It is not difficult for those on the ground to see what is happening. The leader of the Islamic Party of Tajikistan, Deputy Prime Minister Hoji Akbar Turajonzoda, has identified HT as a Western-sponsored bogeyman for "remaking Central Asia". . . .
It is not a lack of understanding on the part of American neo-conservatives associated with the Bush administration, but their keenness to use the "Lewis Doctrine" to achieve what they believe is justified that promises untold danger. How important a brains-trust is Lewis to the neo-conservatives? Just read the words of Richard Perle, a leading neo-conservative who remains a close adviser to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld: "Bernard Lewis has been the single-most important intellectual influence countering the conventional wisdom on managing the conflict between radical Islam and the West."
So -- we end by coming back round again to Richard Perle, but hopefully in a larger context.
It ain't really about the Middle East, boys and girls -- it's about world domination, by any means necessary. The only question is one of identifying the moves as they happen, instead of many years later."".
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» RE: Likes of christopher Hitchens msut be briought to justice and killed after torture.
Posted by: beautifulady2003
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Posted by: avatar_singh on Jul 3, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
July 2, 2008
We, the Salt of the Earth,
Take Precedence
by Paul Craig Roberts
Which country is the rogue nation? Iraq? Iran? Or the United States? Syndicated columnist Charley Reese asks this question in a recently published article.
Reese notes that it is the U.S. that routinely commits "acts of aggression around the globe." The U.S. government has no qualms about dropping bombs on civilians, whether they be in Serbia, the Middle East, or Africa. It is all in a good cause – our cause.
This slaughtering of foreigners doesn't seem to bother the American public. Americans take it for granted that Americans are superior and that American purposes, whatever they be, take precedence over the rights of other people to life and to a political existence independent of American hegemony.
The Bush regime has come up with a preemption doctrine that justifies attacking a country in order to prevent the country from possibly becoming a future threat to the U.S. "Threat" is broadly defined. It appears to mean the ability to withstand the imposition of U.S. hegemony. This insane doctrine justifies attacking China and Russia, a direction in which the Republican presidential candidate John McCain seems to lean.
The callousness of Americans toward the lives of other peoples is stunning. How many Christian churches ask God's forgiveness for having been rushed into an error that has killed, maimed, or displaced a quarter of the Iraqi population?
How many Christian churches ask God to give better guidance to our government so that it does not repeat the error and crime by attacking Iran?
The indifference of Americans to others flows from "American exceptionalism," the belief that Americans are graced with a special mission to impose their virtue on the rest of the world. Like the French revolutionaries, Americans don't seem to care how many people they kill in the process of spreading their exceptionalism.
American exceptionalism has swelled Americans' heads, filling them with hubris and self-righteousness and making Americans believe that they are the salt of the earth.
Three recent books are good antidotes for this unjustified self-esteem. One is Patrick J. Buchanan's Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War. Another is After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation by Giles MacDonogh, and a third is John Pilger's Freedom Next Time.
Buchanan's latest book is by far his best. It is spellbinding from his opening sentence: "All about us we can see clearly now that the West is passing away." As the pages turn, the comfortable myths, produced by history written by the victors, are swept aside. The veil is lifted to reveal the true faces of British and American exceptionalism: stupidity and deceit.
Buchanan's strength is that he lets the story be told by Britain's greatest 20th-century historians and the memoirs of the participants in the events that destroyed the West's dominance and moral character. Buchanan's contribution is to assemble the collective judgment of a hundred historians.
As I read the tale, it is a story of hubris destroying judgment and substituting in its place blunder and miscalculation. Both world wars began when England, for no sound or sensible reason, declared war on Germany. Winston Churchill was a prime instigator of both wars. He seems to have been a person who needed a war stage in order to be a "great man."
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» RE: christopher hitchens like english spies be tortured to death-anything less is unjustice.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: christopher hitchens like english spies be tortured to death-anything less is unjustice.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: christopher hitchens like english spies be tortured to death-anything less is unjustice.
Posted by: Harris20
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Posted by: Kcanadensis on Jul 3, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No attention is paid to the fact that this guy had the guts to do this and find out for himself. The writer just just pouring out their hatred for Hitchens. How about some unbiased reporting? This is just juvenile.
Although Hitchens has some pretty questionable views with war, he has other views on the human condition which he has written about and I and many others enjoy thoroughly. I commend him for having the guts to try this, while the writer just goes on and on about his LUNCH that day, etc. What, did you expect him to turn into a convict and get smacked around first? Completely unreasonable.
Hey, why don't you try water boarding hmm? Then write to us about how long you lasted.
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» RE: Wow...Indeed!
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: Wow...Indeed!
Posted by: Drume
» RE: Wow...Indeed!
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: RobNLA on Jul 3, 2008 8:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to some Republicans, it's sorta like frat house hazing right? So let them have a couple beers, lay down and have some fun.
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jul 3, 2008 9:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Believe me I know..
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Posted by: Cathyc on Jul 3, 2008 1:10 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I am not sure why Hitchens needed to do this.
Posted by: outsideagitator
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Posted by: Quannah on Jul 4, 2008 9:17 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 4, 2008 3:49 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the challenge was made because Carter was fed up with Hitchens dancing the Liar's Fandango with the worst of them about torture, fact or fancy.
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Posted by: outsideagitator on Jul 3, 2008 1:55 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really don't know what happened to Hitchens. He was great in exposing the absurdity and often cruelty of organized religions and often a lonely voice out there exposing the emptiness and hypocrisy of so many countries and their political leaders who wrapped themselves in the mantle of one religion or another and presented themselves as great patriots.
I think that Hitch just freaked our for some reason. He seems to be unhinged and a little crazy. After all those years of bashing both religious hypocrisy and fascism how could he not see it at work here in the U.S. Why could he not see what a shallow and duplicitous person George Bush was and is? How is it that he was not immediately alarmed when the right wing Supreme Court handed the presidency over to a coke sniffing, draft dodging, fundamentalist christian fanatic?
I miss the old Hitch but I applaud Dolan's contempt, caustic wit and yes, his anger.
Joseph
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» Gonzo journalism
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Gonzo journalism
Posted by: outsideagitator
» RE: Gonzo journalism
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: JackonFire on Jul 3, 2008 2:15 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: JackonFire on Jul 3, 2008 2:17 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: zuse000 on Jul 3, 2008 2:46 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all of those who poo pooh waterboarding as less than torture, it is at least good to see one of them try it. What did those who are berating him want to see here, including the author, perhaps to see him really tortured?
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» See Hitchens being 'really tortured' ?
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale on Jul 3, 2008 3:52 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the story and weep.
Mark Daily
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» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier [He has SOME
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: theosophus on Jul 3, 2008 3:57 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The contempt and denigration is boring because, while it may make those who do the denigrating feel good, it's completely ineffective where winning others to one's position is concerned.
While Hitchens has moved far to the right, he's seemed to do it with honesty, willing, even anxious to defend his reactionary conclusions, and, in this case, to openly acknowledge that physical courage isn't among his strongest suits.
Ted
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» RE: Theosophus
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: Theosophus
Posted by: rideyourbike11
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Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale on Jul 3, 2008 4:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: gradioc on Jul 3, 2008 7:08 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The REAL Torture
Posted by: Expired
» RE: The REAL Torture
Posted by: Harris20
» I Was Wrong And I Apologize
Posted by: gradioc
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Posted by: Dboy on Jul 3, 2008 7:35 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He's an odd mix of neocon, intellectual, rascist, and atheist. I noticed several people in the messages claiming he is NOT a neocon...he plainly IS. I've read (some of) his stuff, and have watched everything I could find on him at YouTube. He LIKES the current role that the US is playing in foreign policy. He sees world domination as the US's rightful role (since, after all the US is genetically superior to the brown races, right?) and he WANTS the US to maintain that role in order to establish and maintain global order (New World Order). So he pretty much has all the signs of neocon right there.
Where it gets clouded though is that Hitchen's has an element of introspection about him, which is absolutely unlike any other neocon...he thinks. He may be thinking about creating a master race...but he's thinking. He wants Islam wiped out. He wants Buddhism wiped out...he's a fascist, but a pragmatist as well. He sees that monotheistic beliefs are flawed and wants them gone. Of course he wants christianity wiped out as well, but he'd rather use the christian blood lust to FIRST wipe out Islam...and then christianity is next...that's his pragmatism:-)
He is also unlike normal intellectuals in that (even though this was no doubt calculated to improve his street cred) he chose to actually *experience* waterboarding rather than just drone on about it like an intellectual normally would. Regardless of his motives, I'm impressed by his willingness to do that. The video was really bad, and their use of Enigma's music annoyed me. Enigma has always been great sex music, and this may have ruined it. It reminded me of the torture scenes in Clockwork Orange, in that afterward the victim was unable to listen to beethoven's 9th Symphony without throwing up.
Several people here on Alternet obviously have hangups about Hitchen's atheism...due to their own ignorance. Christians seem to have this idea that if you don't have christianity, then you automatically have no morality...I'd say the OPPOSITE is generally true. If you look at the reality of what christianity has actually brought to this world it should be obvious that christianity (and christians) are a VERY mixed bag. Christianity has not cornered the market on morality. In fact, from what I've seen, christians use their christianity in order to rationalize whatever immorality they are doing. It's the ignorance and fear that fills the christian mind that blinds them to this fact.
So, Hitchen's is a complex guy. He was an asshole before he did this video, and he's still an asshole afterward. But he thinks, he learns, and he improves himself...which we are all hopefully doing as well.
dboy
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» RE: Hitchens is not an easy guy to label...
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hitchens is not an easy guy to label...
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: common intelligence on Jul 3, 2008 7:43 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The media as a whole simply ignores devulging truth to readers / viewers.
We all have to find outwhat happened to buiding 7, where is the debris from any of the plane reckages. Why is it a secret? National security ?
Right!
I wonder what is the weight of the carbon foot print of a whole nation blowing up fireworks to redirectv the whole populations atention away from the fasicist nation America has become.
yup the media hides the truth from the masses that are surely loosing site of the attrocities of the last 8 years.
Screw impeachment, Get out the guiotine.
Man Alternet has even cooled off. These little bits of evidence that confirm war crimes that should be made punishible need to be compiled in one continues news item day after day. Not just intermittantly spot dropped.
Carry on.
Same old, same old.
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Posted by: kenhymes on Jul 3, 2008 8:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have no problem, as a follower of Jesus, laying a whole lot of crap at the feet of the church, it's a mess, and has been as much of a problem as a gift since its inception, it's only the proportions that have varied from place to place and time to time. But Hitchens' writing on the subject is ignorant, ahistorical, and racist, - if you want critiques of religion that are intelligent, try Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw, or for that matter pastors like Brian McClaren or scholars like John Dominic Crossan; Hitchens and Dawkins are amateurs and posers, with no real ideas, just strong opinions swaddled in nasty rhetoric - so when people stick up for him for his views on atheism, it calls into question for me their judgment about whatever it is they're talking about at the moment.
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» RE: velly interesting...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: velly interesting...
Posted by: Drume
» RE: velly interesting...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Interesting, indeed.
Posted by: Longdream
» what do you know about REAL ideas
Posted by: Harris20
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Posted by: gleroy on Jul 3, 2008 10:40 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've seen him speak and have hissed as loudly at him as anyone in the audience.
I still have to give a nod to anyone who has the guts to publicly change their mind on something - knowing that they're going to be opening themselves up to intense public criticism.
Paul Kramer, writing for The New Yorker magazine wrote an excellent, in-depth article (with photos) on the history of the United States' use of 'The Water Cure':
www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_kramer
What really happens makes Christopher Hitchen's experience look like a walk in the park on a sunny day.
excerpts from the article"
A letter by A. F. Miller, of the 32nd Volunteer Infantry Regiment, published in the Omaha World-Herald in May, 1900, told of how Miller’s unit uncovered hidden weapons by subjecting a prisoner to what he and others called the “water cure.” “Now, this is the way we give them the water cure,” he explained. “Lay them on their backs, a man standing on each hand and each foot, then put a round stick in the mouth and pour a pail of water in the mouth and nose, and if they don’t give up pour in another pail. They swell up like toads. I’ll tell you it is a terrible torture.”
"Riley had witnessed Ealdama being bound and forced full of water, while supervised by a contract surgeon and Captain Edwin Glenn, a judge advocate. Ealdama’s throat had been “held so he could not prevent swallowing the water, so that he had to allow the water to run into his stomach”; the water was then “forced out of him by pressing a foot on his stomach or else with [the soldiers’] hands."
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» RE: What really happens during 'The Water Cure'
Posted by: Drume
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Posted by: Expired on Jul 4, 2008 12:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article Robgo2b posted was called, which is hopefully allowed to post is as follows:
The Guardian November 14, 2001: In case anyone has forgotten: torture doesn't work
Entire article:
Although I have been saying in this space how much I have admired the fortitude and the general bearing of American society throughout the crisis, there is one recent development that has utterly appalled and nauseated me.
In a recent issue of Newsweek, a columnist named Jonathan Alter published a call to consider inflicting torture on the al-Qaida suspects now in detention. He was partly adapting a suggestion from Professor Alan Dershowitz, known to many as the obsequious loophole-artist for such fragrant clients as Claus von Bulow and OJ Simpson.
I'm not going to insult Guardian readers by rehearsing all the arguments against torture. But perhaps we require a refresher course in some of them. The worst thing about it, let us say, is the very thing that its depraved advocates recommend for it. It produces confessions.
That is exactly why even the society of medieval Europe began to move to abolish it. Once you enter into that procedure, you will be in the extracted-confession business. Not only is this morally repellent, but from the intelligence viewpoint it is an absolute cast-iron (or hot-iron) guarantee of a torrent of worthless and deluded disinformation. How it might work on a suicide-killer I am in no position to say, though I think I can guess. The favourite experimental scenario - the man knows where the bomb is, put the hooks into him swiftly - is actually a contingency almost impossible to visualise. I certainly know of no such real-life case. But if you hire torturers then you hire torturers, whose whole outlook is based on stupidity and coercion, and you can bet that even with a ticking bomb nearby they would be busily gang-raping the wrong guy.
Its proven failure - in Algeria and Ulster say - is thus directly related to its primeval and irrational essence. The worst thing, in reading the work of Alter and Dershowitz, was the shudder of recoil at the posturing attitudes they kept striking. Both wrote as if it had cost them a lot, by way of moral courage, to say the unsayable and to call for torturers to be put on the federal payroll. How disgusting.
It's good to report that, thus far, no such obscenity has been permitted, but there will have to be vigilance to ensure that such moronic and inhuman views (and people) are handled with tongs from now on.
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» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Drume
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Drume
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Drume on Jul 4, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Shortly after September 11, I went to Olssons down at Metro Center in DC to hear Christopher Hitchens. It was becoming clear at that point that he was going in a totally different direction (rightward).
HOWEVER.
At that lecture, he was VERY EXPLICIT in his condemnation of torture. Remember, this was right after September 11th.
I disagree with Mr H. most of the time, these days. But I am sorry - the author of this article is wrong. I witnessed in person what Mr Hitchens said. I heard it with my own ears.
There needs to be a retraction. Now.
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» RE: The author is wrong
Posted by: Expired
» RE: The author is wrong
Posted by: Drume
» RE: The author is wrong [SICK with your fake concern
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: kelly.nickell on Jul 4, 2008 9:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But after reading the train-wreck that follows in the comments, I've arrived at the same place I do after reading Hitchins: A bad-ass headache.
On another note, I'm beginning to suffer the sense of loss that comes from the knowledge that the little group of Bozo's that have comprised the lions share of right-leaning clowns, have begun to implode, or have already spontaneously combusted - perhaps even while having a towel draped over their face and having water poured over it - or in Ann Coulters case, having Hannity urinate on it. I digress and Bozo actually died today at the age of 83.
Any way you slice it, watching Hitchins YouTube moment is just disturbing, in general, but not as bad as arguing about the ethnicity of John WooHoo (Yoo), or the fact that the guy had to find a legal way to allow our country to torture whomever it wishes for what ever reason it wishes. Make your own laws and ignore the rest? Whatever.
I’m pretty sure that water-boarding sucks, but I think that watching W speak is the most painful thing I’ve ever done, and I bet Hitchens having to watch the 700 club has the same effect on him.
But following this yard sale was painful and reveals a truth we’ve all been tortured for: the msm is fucked-up. Just read the interview with Rush in the NYT to understand why.
Sorry for the lack of a point, I guess that’s the point.
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Posted by: fifthworld on Jul 4, 2008 4:37 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, Hitchens is an a -hole but worse is the tepid liberalism that produces this kind of pseudo-comical, unimaginative drivel. Who friekin' cares!?
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» RE: Waterboard Obama
Posted by: rideyourbike11
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Posted by: scearfo on Jul 4, 2008 4:37 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: merciless christians
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: merciless christians
Posted by: scearfo
» RE: merciless christians
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: beautifulady2003 on Jul 4, 2008 5:07 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Now if Only....
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Now if Only....
Posted by: beautifulady2003
» RE: Now if Only....
Posted by: Ethical1
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 4, 2008 7:39 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this little go-round Hitchens condemns torture while again laying the torture at Abu Ghraib entirely on Lynddie England, saying, if you can believe it:
"It seems, at least on its face, to have profaned the idea of women in the military. One does not have to concede anything to Islamist sexism in order to know what the impact of obscene female torturers will have in the wider society."
Nice. That's the Christopher Hitchens we all know and love.
His self-serving screed after his waterboarding experiment says that torture is baaad, oh, yes, and waterboarding certainly is torture, and anybody who does such things (Lynddie England, for one) is just a horrible person.
Hitchens consistently exonerates the Bush Administration from the charge of knowingly ordering torture to be performed, but not even satisfied with that, goes on to say that. "Any call to indict the United States for torture is … a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down."
In other words, Bush didn't torture anyone, but if he did, it was justified!
Men approaching 60 shouldn't do naked fan-dances in public. Even that isn't enough to distract us from the truth.
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» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Harris20
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Drume
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Drume
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Posted by: GPFrank on Jul 4, 2008 9:18 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: EHopkins on Jul 5, 2008 12:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Oh, you've got to be joking.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Next for Hitchens?
Posted by: kahawa
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Posted by: Joni50 on Jul 5, 2008 9:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am very much a humanitarian. I want human beings to be the best they can possibly be. However there are some times when there is no substitute for war, and more importantly victory.
I was always against the war in Viet Nam. We had no business being there in the first place; but the war against terror (islamic facism).
You are not aware of these facts because the news media is lying to you.
1. were you aware there was a terrorist training base in Salmam Paq where the terrorists has a Boeing 727 without wings where they trained the terrorists to hijack planes.
2. Are you aware that when the military sent through that terrorist training base; they found Alqaeda materials, and materials for the terrorist group operating in Gaza. and get this they found more than 100 suicide vests.
3. Are you aware that Saddam Hussein was sending $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers that killed israeli's
4. Are you aware that Abu Nidal (the man who hijacked the Achile Lauro ship, and murdered the man in the wheelchair lived until he died in Baghdad.
It IS true that So d_______ Insane (Saddam Husein) did not help plan the attacks against the U.S. on 9/11; but he certainly did NOT tell them to stop. He supported the terrorists by giving them space to train, and giving them money.
I hate war as much as anyone does (In fact I was in the very last draft in 1973 to go to Viet Nam.
I am deffinately a hawk in wanting to stop people who are trying to convert us or kill us; and I say stop the 2% of the Islam religion that has become radicalized and are trying to kill anyone who does not believe as they believe.
I actually feel sorry for them because they have been lied to, and are NOT practising the true religion of Islam.
Jihad is NOT about killing infidels (people who believe differently than you. True Jihad is a spiritual struggle where you overcome (or kill) the animalistic tendencies of the sub conscious mind (the inner infidel).
This is an outgrowth of Wahabi Islam who want to take the Q'uran literally (just as some nuts who want to take the bible literally and feel justified in killing abortionists, and blowing up abortion clinics.
Both are evil, and I call a spade a spade.
I have read the Bible, I have also read the Q'uran, the Bhagavad Gita, the assorted Hindu Vedas. Buddhist sutras, and many other scriptures in search for my answers, and have received the title "master" in eight disciplines and STILL working on self mastery.
I am proud to call myself a humanitarian hawk.
Two Bears
(Joni50's sister. I just joined and will have my own user name and password soon. Just couldn't pass this one up.)
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» RE: I'm a Humanitarian hawk [by your comments we must be
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: I'm a Humanitarian hawk
Posted by: kahawa
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Posted by: celticwriter on Jul 5, 2008 9:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Atheist Under Water
Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
» RE: Atheist Under Water
Posted by: celticwriter
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Posted by: kahawa on Jul 6, 2008 4:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Joni50 on Jul 6, 2008 5:21 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am very much aware of the Military industrial Complex. Those words were said by Dwight David Eisenhower when he left office.
On 9/11 those murderous islamic fascists killed more people than the number of people killed in the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941.
At least the Japanese were honorable by attacking military targets.
The Islamic fascists attacked CIVILIAN targets the twin towers. This is cowardly, and I have no use for terrorists who murder innocent men women and children.
It could be argued that the Pentagon is a valid military target. IT IS; just as the attacks on the U.S.S. Kole, and the embassies in Africa could be considered valid military targets.
However; when these scum murder innocent people in cold blood as in the attacks on the 9/11, the atacks on Madrid, the attacks in Bali, the attacks in Israel; these Islamic Fascists have crossed the line and deserves whatever the military industrial complex wants to do to them
I hear "One man's terroist is another man's freedom fighter" until I want to throw up!
The difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is the terrorist does not care who or how many they kill.
Squarehead; I would recommend for you to watch one of the videos online where these Islamic Fascists are chanting Allah Akbar (God is great) while they are sawing a human being's head off with a dull knife as he screams and begs for his life.
The Islamic fascists do not belong in civilized society.
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» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2
Posted by: Schroeder
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2
Posted by: Schroeder
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Joni50 on Jul 6, 2008 5:47 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes I fully support the war against the Islamic Fascists.
Salman Paq is a town in southern Iraq if memory serves.
My source for claiming there was an alQaeda terrorist training base there is the fact that I saw the satellite images of the training base with the Boeing 727 without wings in the training base, and the news reports what the military found in the training camp.
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Posted by: kahuna_2bears on Jul 6, 2008 8:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would have to disagree with you there. gods are NOT imaginary. According to the young carpenter in John 10: 34-39 we ARE gods,
I have personally experienced several of the higher powers. For most of my life; in fact I felt as if God (the supreme creator) left me on the wrong planet
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» RE: All gods imaginary
Posted by: Joni50
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Posted by: Schroeder on Jul 6, 2008 7:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find the article interesting in that there seems to be a level of contempt for the compassion shown to those participating in the experiment with Hitchens. I kind of think that the inhumanity of the writer of the article is somewhat apparent. Maybe the writer thinks that waterboarding is okay if you really don't like the person being waterboarded.
Yup, I say, let everyone have the Hitchens experience who continues to say that it isn't torture...then we will see 'real change', the kind of change many of us are waiting for.
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Posted by: wwittman on Jul 7, 2008 12:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
well, by contrast, I suppose, Americans prefer to elect people to torture them collectively.
That's a BETTER choice?
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 2, 2008 6:53 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And he had to grandstand, because any drivel that he writes is all about he, himself and him, as the centerpiece of our attention as he tells us what's up.
The number's been up on his self-aggrandizing crap for quite a while now.
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» RE: Christopher Hitchens now knows what any seven-year-old would have told him.
Posted by: Expired
» Dolan rants
Posted by: Richard House
» Troll
Posted by: chuckjs
» RE: Troll
Posted by: Richard House
» GAWRSH!!! Mr. Hitchens!!! You done changed your name!!!!!
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
» RE: Christopher Hitchens now knows what any seven-year-old would have told him.
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Christopher Hitchens now knows what any seven-year-old would have told him.
Posted by: Richard House
Comments are closed-
Posted by: robgo2b on Jul 2, 2008 8:29 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: christianslayer1955
» Christoffer Hitchens is a reformed communist
Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist
» RE: Christoffer Hitchens is a reformed communist
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Christoffer Hitchens is a reformed communist
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Christoffer Hitchens is [(Do you know what Ad Hominem means?)
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: FrozenFox
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: FrozenFox
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: Expired
» lot of assumptions
Posted by: Richard House
» RE: What's Wrong With Assumptions?
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: lot of assumptions
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: lot of assumptions
Posted by: masthead
» RE: lot of assumptions
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: robgo2b
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: kenhymes
» RE: Dumbest piece that I have seen all week
Posted by: robgo2b
» I'll provide my own reference that Hitchens is not pro-torture.
Posted by: robgo2b
» RE: I'll provide my own reference that Hitchens is not pro-torture.
Posted by: Expired
» RE: I'll provide my own reference that Hitchens is not pro-torture.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I'll provide my own reference that Hitchens is not pro-torture.
Posted by: Joni50
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Expired on Jul 2, 2008 9:04 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're obviously simply posting complete bullshit in order to smear him either for his stance against religion (more bullshit) and his pro stance on the Iraq war. He simply has good arguments, you however, do not.
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» snicker
Posted by: owlbear1
» RE: Fake Video?
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Fake Video?
Posted by: Expired
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 2, 2008 9:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Lauren on Jul 3, 2008 4:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the uncle Tom agreeing with him today, I used to like that guy. What a creep.
Anyone who would argue FOR the telecoms' immunity (including themselves - how awkward!) is obviously in the tank with the drug dealers like McCain. They don't just deal in drugs, but also in people.
Anyone defending FISA spying is also defending torture and slavery. It makes me very angry to hear that kind of hate speech, especially from a black man.
It is not a harmless thing they were doing or they wouldn't have been doing it against the law, in secret. Use your head man!
"Doing Iran." Wow what a term, we raped Iraq, now we go do her sister. Sick bastards on TV.
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» RE: Watching Pat Buchanan makes me sick, literally
Posted by: herronsmith
» RE: Watching Pat Buchanan makes me sick, literally
Posted by: Lauren
» ??
Posted by: emmas
» RE: ??
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: jumping the shark
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: Watching Pat Buchanan makes me sick, literally
Posted by: Joni50
» uhh...
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: uhh...
Posted by: Lauren
» Maybe a blog would be a better place for this kind of commentary
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: Maybe a blog would be a better place for this kind of commentary
Posted by: NicoSuave
» RE: Maybe a blog would be a better place for this kind of commentary
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: uhh...
Posted by: lovercat2942
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Posted by: hester on Jul 3, 2008 4:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitchens wrote an article in 11/01 quite clearly stating his opposition to torture. John Dolan is blinded by his ideology.
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» RE: OMG
Posted by: Erik1968
» RE: OMG
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: He's just reading the handwriting on the wall.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: OMG
Posted by: Expired
» RE: OMG
Posted by: mkdelta69
Comments are closed-
Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Jul 3, 2008 4:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am looking forward to reading Hitchens' article, which I expect to contain a lot more insight than this one.
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» RE: Why all the personal attacks?
Posted by: Erik1968
» RE: Why all the personal attacks?
Posted by: Lector
» RE: Why all the personal attacks?
Posted by: nolafugees
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eksommer on Jul 3, 2008 4:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: Turiye
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: justAnEgg
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: Lauren
» Native American religious leader?
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: lovercat2942
» RE: xecutive Waterboarding
Posted by: Quannah
» In the interests of accuracy, John Yoo (not Woo) is of Korean, not Chinese, ancestry.
Posted by: mclemens
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Turiye on Jul 3, 2008 5:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We kidnap and TORTURE people now, we F$$ked every Article of the Constitution, 2 Rights that the Murderer hasn't declared gone sight unseen, 2 and 10. We have children, women and mentally impaired at GITMO, we added to their plight by TORTURING them, burying them alive and the ones left I can assure you suffer from every mental disease known to mankind by now, PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome, Psychosis of all names and we've made them great Terrorists by now. [which they weren't before] Man the lot of you are so self-absorbed all you've ranted about is poor Hitchen's, Torture is the problem, I could give two shits @ Hitchen's.
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» RE: Is this the Hitchen's fan club or is this article really about Torture, Stay on topic...
Posted by: popsicle67
» RE: Yelling and Bolding?
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Is this the Hitchen's fan club or is this article really about Torture, Stay on topic...
Posted by: robgo2b
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lively56 on Jul 3, 2008 5:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Thank You Mr. John Dolan
Posted by: Vik
» Thank You Mr. John Dolan
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: nolafugees on Jul 3, 2008 5:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where's the links to articles in which Hitch advocates waterboarding, or other nefarious and disgusting, undemocratic tortures?
As far as I've read, Hitchens has never advocated torture, and in fact one of the primary reasons for his initial support of the war in Iraq was the continued human rights violations of the Hussein regime.
Hitchens sees himself in the tradition of Orwell, an individual who's youth was spent far to the Left, so far to the Left it becomes the Right. Hitchens has advocated the toppling of dictators for the whole of his career, has written resolutely against totalitarianism and fascism (to the extent that he even uses the terms- something the current popular Left runs from); he's come out solidly critical of Conservative deities (Thatcher, Reagan, Kissinger, Pinochet, Churchill) and advocated a harder, more clear eyed Left response than Dolan's mealy, millenial liberalism.
Sadly, this article stinks of an audition for the Huffington Post; as journalists, ad hominem attacks do not become us, but they are fun, and provide the opportunity for young, internet teens to slay that most deadly of beasts: our fathers.
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» RE: Puerile Polemic
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Puerile Polemic
Posted by: nolafugees
» RE: Puerile Polemic
Posted by: BigElectricCat
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EinMD on Jul 3, 2008 5:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which is more than you can say for all the people who advocated the use of this technique against real targets.
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» RE: Of course it's fake you douchebag!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Of course it's fake you douchebag!
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: Quasar on Jul 3, 2008 6:23 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 3, 2008 6:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do yourself a favor--don't debate with them, just let them bore each other to death.
Want to know who they are?
They'll be the ones ranting their outrage in response to this comment.
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» RE: The Trolls Are Here Already.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Trolls Are Here Already.
Posted by: robgo2b
» RE: The Trolls Are Here Already.
Posted by: Longdream
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eirikr on Jul 3, 2008 7:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The points about the difference between this experiment and the actual torture that occurs in the field are valid, but they don't detract from what Hitchens has done.
How can you be against torture, and at the same time call Hitchens a wimp and this experiment a sham because it just wasn't cruel enough?
This is a ridiculous article, stick to topics you know something about: coked out rock stars and fake memoirs.
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Posted by: OnlyJesusSaves on Jul 3, 2008 7:22 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com
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» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Kcanadensis
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Expired
» What has Morality got to do with the Bible?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Baloney, sir....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: gradioc
» RE: More unspeakable things than can even be imagined.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: robgo2b
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: scearfo
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: scearfo
» RE: Tell Us, Please, Mr. Atheist Hitchens, Why Torture Is Wrong If There Is No God...
Posted by: Squarehead
» Tell US, please, OJSaves, how you reached the conclusion that only believers have ethics
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ozonehole on Jul 3, 2008 7:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All that having been said, in the interests of responsible journalism it would be nice if Alternet would invite Christopher Hitchens to respond. That would be "fair and balanced."
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» Let Christopher Hitchens respond
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Hitchens respond??
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hitchens respond??
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Hitchens respond??
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: let Christopher Hitchens respond
Posted by: sumac3
» What Constitution?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: let Christopher Hitchens respond
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Let Christopher Hitchens go to hell.
Posted by: Longdream
Comments are closed-
Posted by: coldmoon on Jul 3, 2008 7:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: You're a very good writer and you're spot on about Hitchens
Posted by: robgo2b
Comments are closed-
Posted by: avatar_singh on Jul 3, 2008 7:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
see and watch todays bbc and realize how much bbc and other british propaganda machinary is responsible for bush war crimes.
He also assuredly told that this "white house is quite safe"as wished for by the british ofocurse. during gore-bush florida tussle bbc was advocating gore to leave bush alone as britian was waiting for american missile defence to come her shore soon and so no delay in small matter of who should be presidentof usa be allowed.d-bit belicve it? look at all british propaganda between 1st novembr till 20th novembr of 2000.
it is high time that engish spies in american establishment be eliminated..
it is high time that these english spies in usa are taken care of .
also during and after the gulf war(first iraq war) the british were taking full creidit for insitagating bush 1 to start and persue war agasint iraq. the reason war criminal blair diidnto take full creidt for iraq war 2 was because that went sour(failure has no fathers claming thiers). itis a fact that merciless war done by america has benen perpetauted by the british agents inside america( and not some indepdnet israli agents as claimed-it jsut so happend that only know israli interest happend to coinside with those of english parasites -that is why war on and for behalf of england is being waged by america the world over.
By the way in IN '88 when Dalai lama, at the height of Tibetan disturbances, visited west, the then british prime minister refused to meet Him. Later on with the demise of Russia and usefulness of China gone and with manipulation to keep power in Hong Kong somehow intact, the same british media and government ,like dog, started barking at China. It is interesting that amnesty international selectively targets those very countries( as it did china after cold war) who are out of favour (because they would not be a british stooge) of the british media and govt. This is not surprising as amnesty international is the creation of british govt, and british media. england with the most appalling record of human rights in last 200 years of her evil rule, needed some organisation to keep the others from charging england off her past and current evil practices. In other words it went for aggressive posture in propaganda war so that others can be demoralized and stopped from pointing out the real evil which is england. That is why amnesty international is one armour of the british lies to exploit the rest of the world. Amnesty international must be ignored and an independent human watchdog (which england will simply ignore) created. One purpose of amnesty international is to create an atmosphere for hatred towards the would be victims of british exploitation so that a victim could be blamed to have deserved the consequences. That is why ,now amnesty international sometimes threatens China, sometimes India and etc.
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» RE: I support torture-for the likes of christopher Hitichins like british parasites.
Posted by: Expired
Comments are closed-
Posted by: avatar_singh on Jul 3, 2008 7:47 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apart from various Islamic preachers, two major Islamic groups function in the Ferghana Valley, whose common objective is to change the regimes in Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Kazakhstan. These are the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) and the HT. While the IMU openly thrives on violence, the HT is strongly promoted by the United Kingdom, where it is headquartered, as peaceful. But records indicate that that the IMU and the HT work hand-in-hand. Most of the IMU recruits are from the HT, according to Rohan Gunaratna, an expert on world terrorist outfits. Gunaratna claims that Khaled Sheikh Muhammad, the alleged mastermind of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks in the US, and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian of Chechen origin who has remained active in the Iraqi insurgency against the US occupying forces, were both once members of the HT. . . .
The West's policy - in other words, the policy of the Anglo-Americans, as the European Union does not have a policy worth citing - toward the Middle East has long been formulated by Bernard Lewis. The British-born Lewis started his career as an intelligence officer and has remained in bed with British intelligence ever since. Avowedly anti-Russia and pro-Israel, Lewis reaped a rich harvest among US academia and policymakers. He brought president Jimmy Carter's virulently anti-Russian National Security Council chief, Zbigniew Brzezinski, into his fold in the 1980s, and made the US neo-conservatives, led by Vice President Dick Cheney, dance to his tune on the Middle East in 2001. In between, he penned dozens of books and was taken seriously by people as a historian. But, in fact, Lewis is what he always was: a British intelligence officer. . . .
The recent developments in Uzbekistan have all the hallmarks of the same process. This time the objective is to weaken China, Russia, and possibly India, using the HT to unleash the dogs of war in Central Asia. It is not difficult for those on the ground to see what is happening. The leader of the Islamic Party of Tajikistan, Deputy Prime Minister Hoji Akbar Turajonzoda, has identified HT as a Western-sponsored bogeyman for "remaking Central Asia". . . .
It is not a lack of understanding on the part of American neo-conservatives associated with the Bush administration, but their keenness to use the "Lewis Doctrine" to achieve what they believe is justified that promises untold danger. How important a brains-trust is Lewis to the neo-conservatives? Just read the words of Richard Perle, a leading neo-conservative who remains a close adviser to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld: "Bernard Lewis has been the single-most important intellectual influence countering the conventional wisdom on managing the conflict between radical Islam and the West."
So -- we end by coming back round again to Richard Perle, but hopefully in a larger context.
It ain't really about the Middle East, boys and girls -- it's about world domination, by any means necessary. The only question is one of identifying the moves as they happen, instead of many years later."".
============================================================
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» RE: Likes of christopher Hitchens msut be briought to justice and killed after torture.
Posted by: beautifulady2003
Comments are closed-
Posted by: avatar_singh on Jul 3, 2008 7:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
July 2, 2008
We, the Salt of the Earth,
Take Precedence
by Paul Craig Roberts
Which country is the rogue nation? Iraq? Iran? Or the United States? Syndicated columnist Charley Reese asks this question in a recently published article.
Reese notes that it is the U.S. that routinely commits "acts of aggression around the globe." The U.S. government has no qualms about dropping bombs on civilians, whether they be in Serbia, the Middle East, or Africa. It is all in a good cause – our cause.
This slaughtering of foreigners doesn't seem to bother the American public. Americans take it for granted that Americans are superior and that American purposes, whatever they be, take precedence over the rights of other people to life and to a political existence independent of American hegemony.
The Bush regime has come up with a preemption doctrine that justifies attacking a country in order to prevent the country from possibly becoming a future threat to the U.S. "Threat" is broadly defined. It appears to mean the ability to withstand the imposition of U.S. hegemony. This insane doctrine justifies attacking China and Russia, a direction in which the Republican presidential candidate John McCain seems to lean.
The callousness of Americans toward the lives of other peoples is stunning. How many Christian churches ask God's forgiveness for having been rushed into an error that has killed, maimed, or displaced a quarter of the Iraqi population?
How many Christian churches ask God to give better guidance to our government so that it does not repeat the error and crime by attacking Iran?
The indifference of Americans to others flows from "American exceptionalism," the belief that Americans are graced with a special mission to impose their virtue on the rest of the world. Like the French revolutionaries, Americans don't seem to care how many people they kill in the process of spreading their exceptionalism.
American exceptionalism has swelled Americans' heads, filling them with hubris and self-righteousness and making Americans believe that they are the salt of the earth.
Three recent books are good antidotes for this unjustified self-esteem. One is Patrick J. Buchanan's Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War. Another is After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation by Giles MacDonogh, and a third is John Pilger's Freedom Next Time.
Buchanan's latest book is by far his best. It is spellbinding from his opening sentence: "All about us we can see clearly now that the West is passing away." As the pages turn, the comfortable myths, produced by history written by the victors, are swept aside. The veil is lifted to reveal the true faces of British and American exceptionalism: stupidity and deceit.
Buchanan's strength is that he lets the story be told by Britain's greatest 20th-century historians and the memoirs of the participants in the events that destroyed the West's dominance and moral character. Buchanan's contribution is to assemble the collective judgment of a hundred historians.
As I read the tale, it is a story of hubris destroying judgment and substituting in its place blunder and miscalculation. Both world wars began when England, for no sound or sensible reason, declared war on Germany. Winston Churchill was a prime instigator of both wars. He seems to have been a person who needed a war stage in order to be a "great man."
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» RE: christopher hitchens like english spies be tortured to death-anything less is unjustice.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: christopher hitchens like english spies be tortured to death-anything less is unjustice.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: christopher hitchens like english spies be tortured to death-anything less is unjustice.
Posted by: Harris20
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kcanadensis on Jul 3, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No attention is paid to the fact that this guy had the guts to do this and find out for himself. The writer just just pouring out their hatred for Hitchens. How about some unbiased reporting? This is just juvenile.
Although Hitchens has some pretty questionable views with war, he has other views on the human condition which he has written about and I and many others enjoy thoroughly. I commend him for having the guts to try this, while the writer just goes on and on about his LUNCH that day, etc. What, did you expect him to turn into a convict and get smacked around first? Completely unreasonable.
Hey, why don't you try water boarding hmm? Then write to us about how long you lasted.
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» RE: Wow...Indeed!
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: Wow...Indeed!
Posted by: Drume
» RE: Wow...Indeed!
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: RobNLA on Jul 3, 2008 8:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to some Republicans, it's sorta like frat house hazing right? So let them have a couple beers, lay down and have some fun.
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jul 3, 2008 9:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Believe me I know..
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Posted by: Cathyc on Jul 3, 2008 1:10 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I am not sure why Hitchens needed to do this.
Posted by: outsideagitator
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Posted by: Quannah on Jul 4, 2008 9:17 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 4, 2008 3:49 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the challenge was made because Carter was fed up with Hitchens dancing the Liar's Fandango with the worst of them about torture, fact or fancy.
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Posted by: outsideagitator on Jul 3, 2008 1:55 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really don't know what happened to Hitchens. He was great in exposing the absurdity and often cruelty of organized religions and often a lonely voice out there exposing the emptiness and hypocrisy of so many countries and their political leaders who wrapped themselves in the mantle of one religion or another and presented themselves as great patriots.
I think that Hitch just freaked our for some reason. He seems to be unhinged and a little crazy. After all those years of bashing both religious hypocrisy and fascism how could he not see it at work here in the U.S. Why could he not see what a shallow and duplicitous person George Bush was and is? How is it that he was not immediately alarmed when the right wing Supreme Court handed the presidency over to a coke sniffing, draft dodging, fundamentalist christian fanatic?
I miss the old Hitch but I applaud Dolan's contempt, caustic wit and yes, his anger.
Joseph
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» Gonzo journalism
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Gonzo journalism
Posted by: outsideagitator
» RE: Gonzo journalism
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: JackonFire on Jul 3, 2008 2:15 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: JackonFire on Jul 3, 2008 2:17 PM
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Posted by: zuse000 on Jul 3, 2008 2:46 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all of those who poo pooh waterboarding as less than torture, it is at least good to see one of them try it. What did those who are berating him want to see here, including the author, perhaps to see him really tortured?
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» See Hitchens being 'really tortured' ?
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale on Jul 3, 2008 3:52 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the story and weep.
Mark Daily
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» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Hitchens is responsible for the death of a soldier [He has SOME
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: theosophus on Jul 3, 2008 3:57 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The contempt and denigration is boring because, while it may make those who do the denigrating feel good, it's completely ineffective where winning others to one's position is concerned.
While Hitchens has moved far to the right, he's seemed to do it with honesty, willing, even anxious to defend his reactionary conclusions, and, in this case, to openly acknowledge that physical courage isn't among his strongest suits.
Ted
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» RE: Theosophus
Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: Theosophus
Posted by: rideyourbike11
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Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale on Jul 3, 2008 4:25 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: gradioc on Jul 3, 2008 7:08 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The REAL Torture
Posted by: Expired
» RE: The REAL Torture
Posted by: Harris20
» I Was Wrong And I Apologize
Posted by: gradioc
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Posted by: Dboy on Jul 3, 2008 7:35 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He's an odd mix of neocon, intellectual, rascist, and atheist. I noticed several people in the messages claiming he is NOT a neocon...he plainly IS. I've read (some of) his stuff, and have watched everything I could find on him at YouTube. He LIKES the current role that the US is playing in foreign policy. He sees world domination as the US's rightful role (since, after all the US is genetically superior to the brown races, right?) and he WANTS the US to maintain that role in order to establish and maintain global order (New World Order). So he pretty much has all the signs of neocon right there.
Where it gets clouded though is that Hitchen's has an element of introspection about him, which is absolutely unlike any other neocon...he thinks. He may be thinking about creating a master race...but he's thinking. He wants Islam wiped out. He wants Buddhism wiped out...he's a fascist, but a pragmatist as well. He sees that monotheistic beliefs are flawed and wants them gone. Of course he wants christianity wiped out as well, but he'd rather use the christian blood lust to FIRST wipe out Islam...and then christianity is next...that's his pragmatism:-)
He is also unlike normal intellectuals in that (even though this was no doubt calculated to improve his street cred) he chose to actually *experience* waterboarding rather than just drone on about it like an intellectual normally would. Regardless of his motives, I'm impressed by his willingness to do that. The video was really bad, and their use of Enigma's music annoyed me. Enigma has always been great sex music, and this may have ruined it. It reminded me of the torture scenes in Clockwork Orange, in that afterward the victim was unable to listen to beethoven's 9th Symphony without throwing up.
Several people here on Alternet obviously have hangups about Hitchen's atheism...due to their own ignorance. Christians seem to have this idea that if you don't have christianity, then you automatically have no morality...I'd say the OPPOSITE is generally true. If you look at the reality of what christianity has actually brought to this world it should be obvious that christianity (and christians) are a VERY mixed bag. Christianity has not cornered the market on morality. In fact, from what I've seen, christians use their christianity in order to rationalize whatever immorality they are doing. It's the ignorance and fear that fills the christian mind that blinds them to this fact.
So, Hitchen's is a complex guy. He was an asshole before he did this video, and he's still an asshole afterward. But he thinks, he learns, and he improves himself...which we are all hopefully doing as well.
dboy
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» RE: Hitchens is not an easy guy to label...
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hitchens is not an easy guy to label...
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: common intelligence on Jul 3, 2008 7:43 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The media as a whole simply ignores devulging truth to readers / viewers.
We all have to find outwhat happened to buiding 7, where is the debris from any of the plane reckages. Why is it a secret? National security ?
Right!
I wonder what is the weight of the carbon foot print of a whole nation blowing up fireworks to redirectv the whole populations atention away from the fasicist nation America has become.
yup the media hides the truth from the masses that are surely loosing site of the attrocities of the last 8 years.
Screw impeachment, Get out the guiotine.
Man Alternet has even cooled off. These little bits of evidence that confirm war crimes that should be made punishible need to be compiled in one continues news item day after day. Not just intermittantly spot dropped.
Carry on.
Same old, same old.
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Posted by: kenhymes on Jul 3, 2008 8:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have no problem, as a follower of Jesus, laying a whole lot of crap at the feet of the church, it's a mess, and has been as much of a problem as a gift since its inception, it's only the proportions that have varied from place to place and time to time. But Hitchens' writing on the subject is ignorant, ahistorical, and racist, - if you want critiques of religion that are intelligent, try Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw, or for that matter pastors like Brian McClaren or scholars like John Dominic Crossan; Hitchens and Dawkins are amateurs and posers, with no real ideas, just strong opinions swaddled in nasty rhetoric - so when people stick up for him for his views on atheism, it calls into question for me their judgment about whatever it is they're talking about at the moment.
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» RE: velly interesting...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: velly interesting...
Posted by: Drume
» RE: velly interesting...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Interesting, indeed.
Posted by: Longdream
» what do you know about REAL ideas
Posted by: Harris20
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Posted by: gleroy on Jul 3, 2008 10:40 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've seen him speak and have hissed as loudly at him as anyone in the audience.
I still have to give a nod to anyone who has the guts to publicly change their mind on something - knowing that they're going to be opening themselves up to intense public criticism.
Paul Kramer, writing for The New Yorker magazine wrote an excellent, in-depth article (with photos) on the history of the United States' use of 'The Water Cure':
www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_kramer
What really happens makes Christopher Hitchen's experience look like a walk in the park on a sunny day.
excerpts from the article"
A letter by A. F. Miller, of the 32nd Volunteer Infantry Regiment, published in the Omaha World-Herald in May, 1900, told of how Miller’s unit uncovered hidden weapons by subjecting a prisoner to what he and others called the “water cure.” “Now, this is the way we give them the water cure,” he explained. “Lay them on their backs, a man standing on each hand and each foot, then put a round stick in the mouth and pour a pail of water in the mouth and nose, and if they don’t give up pour in another pail. They swell up like toads. I’ll tell you it is a terrible torture.”
"Riley had witnessed Ealdama being bound and forced full of water, while supervised by a contract surgeon and Captain Edwin Glenn, a judge advocate. Ealdama’s throat had been “held so he could not prevent swallowing the water, so that he had to allow the water to run into his stomach”; the water was then “forced out of him by pressing a foot on his stomach or else with [the soldiers’] hands."
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» RE: What really happens during 'The Water Cure'
Posted by: Drume
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Posted by: Expired on Jul 4, 2008 12:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article Robgo2b posted was called, which is hopefully allowed to post is as follows:
The Guardian November 14, 2001: In case anyone has forgotten: torture doesn't work
Entire article:
Although I have been saying in this space how much I have admired the fortitude and the general bearing of American society throughout the crisis, there is one recent development that has utterly appalled and nauseated me.
In a recent issue of Newsweek, a columnist named Jonathan Alter published a call to consider inflicting torture on the al-Qaida suspects now in detention. He was partly adapting a suggestion from Professor Alan Dershowitz, known to many as the obsequious loophole-artist for such fragrant clients as Claus von Bulow and OJ Simpson.
I'm not going to insult Guardian readers by rehearsing all the arguments against torture. But perhaps we require a refresher course in some of them. The worst thing about it, let us say, is the very thing that its depraved advocates recommend for it. It produces confessions.
That is exactly why even the society of medieval Europe began to move to abolish it. Once you enter into that procedure, you will be in the extracted-confession business. Not only is this morally repellent, but from the intelligence viewpoint it is an absolute cast-iron (or hot-iron) guarantee of a torrent of worthless and deluded disinformation. How it might work on a suicide-killer I am in no position to say, though I think I can guess. The favourite experimental scenario - the man knows where the bomb is, put the hooks into him swiftly - is actually a contingency almost impossible to visualise. I certainly know of no such real-life case. But if you hire torturers then you hire torturers, whose whole outlook is based on stupidity and coercion, and you can bet that even with a ticking bomb nearby they would be busily gang-raping the wrong guy.
Its proven failure - in Algeria and Ulster say - is thus directly related to its primeval and irrational essence. The worst thing, in reading the work of Alter and Dershowitz, was the shudder of recoil at the posturing attitudes they kept striking. Both wrote as if it had cost them a lot, by way of moral courage, to say the unsayable and to call for torturers to be put on the federal payroll. How disgusting.
It's good to report that, thus far, no such obscenity has been permitted, but there will have to be vigilance to ensure that such moronic and inhuman views (and people) are handled with tongs from now on.
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» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Drume
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Expired
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Drume
» RE: Hitchens never supported torture
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Drume on Jul 4, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Shortly after September 11, I went to Olssons down at Metro Center in DC to hear Christopher Hitchens. It was becoming clear at that point that he was going in a totally different direction (rightward).
HOWEVER.
At that lecture, he was VERY EXPLICIT in his condemnation of torture. Remember, this was right after September 11th.
I disagree with Mr H. most of the time, these days. But I am sorry - the author of this article is wrong. I witnessed in person what Mr Hitchens said. I heard it with my own ears.
There needs to be a retraction. Now.
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» RE: The author is wrong
Posted by: Expired
» RE: The author is wrong
Posted by: Drume
» RE: The author is wrong [SICK with your fake concern
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: kelly.nickell on Jul 4, 2008 9:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But after reading the train-wreck that follows in the comments, I've arrived at the same place I do after reading Hitchins: A bad-ass headache.
On another note, I'm beginning to suffer the sense of loss that comes from the knowledge that the little group of Bozo's that have comprised the lions share of right-leaning clowns, have begun to implode, or have already spontaneously combusted - perhaps even while having a towel draped over their face and having water poured over it - or in Ann Coulters case, having Hannity urinate on it. I digress and Bozo actually died today at the age of 83.
Any way you slice it, watching Hitchins YouTube moment is just disturbing, in general, but not as bad as arguing about the ethnicity of John WooHoo (Yoo), or the fact that the guy had to find a legal way to allow our country to torture whomever it wishes for what ever reason it wishes. Make your own laws and ignore the rest? Whatever.
I’m pretty sure that water-boarding sucks, but I think that watching W speak is the most painful thing I’ve ever done, and I bet Hitchens having to watch the 700 club has the same effect on him.
But following this yard sale was painful and reveals a truth we’ve all been tortured for: the msm is fucked-up. Just read the interview with Rush in the NYT to understand why.
Sorry for the lack of a point, I guess that’s the point.
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Posted by: fifthworld on Jul 4, 2008 4:37 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, Hitchens is an a -hole but worse is the tepid liberalism that produces this kind of pseudo-comical, unimaginative drivel. Who friekin' cares!?
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» RE: Waterboard Obama
Posted by: rideyourbike11
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Posted by: scearfo on Jul 4, 2008 4:37 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: merciless christians
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: merciless christians
Posted by: scearfo
» RE: merciless christians
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: beautifulady2003 on Jul 4, 2008 5:07 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Now if Only....
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Now if Only....
Posted by: beautifulady2003
» RE: Now if Only....
Posted by: Ethical1
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Posted by: Longdream on Jul 4, 2008 7:39 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this little go-round Hitchens condemns torture while again laying the torture at Abu Ghraib entirely on Lynddie England, saying, if you can believe it:
"It seems, at least on its face, to have profaned the idea of women in the military. One does not have to concede anything to Islamist sexism in order to know what the impact of obscene female torturers will have in the wider society."
Nice. That's the Christopher Hitchens we all know and love.
His self-serving screed after his waterboarding experiment says that torture is baaad, oh, yes, and waterboarding certainly is torture, and anybody who does such things (Lynddie England, for one) is just a horrible person.
Hitchens consistently exonerates the Bush Administration from the charge of knowingly ordering torture to be performed, but not even satisfied with that, goes on to say that. "Any call to indict the United States for torture is … a lame and diseased attempt to arrive at a moral equivalence between those who defend civilization and those who exploit its freedoms to hollow it out, and ultimately to bring it down."
In other words, Bush didn't torture anyone, but if he did, it was justified!
Men approaching 60 shouldn't do naked fan-dances in public. Even that isn't enough to distract us from the truth.
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» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Harris20
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Drume
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hitchens' Dance With The T-Word
Posted by: Drume
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Posted by: GPFrank on Jul 4, 2008 9:18 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: EHopkins on Jul 5, 2008 12:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Oh, you've got to be joking.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Next for Hitchens?
Posted by: kahawa
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Posted by: Joni50 on Jul 5, 2008 9:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am very much a humanitarian. I want human beings to be the best they can possibly be. However there are some times when there is no substitute for war, and more importantly victory.
I was always against the war in Viet Nam. We had no business being there in the first place; but the war against terror (islamic facism).
You are not aware of these facts because the news media is lying to you.
1. were you aware there was a terrorist training base in Salmam Paq where the terrorists has a Boeing 727 without wings where they trained the terrorists to hijack planes.
2. Are you aware that when the military sent through that terrorist training base; they found Alqaeda materials, and materials for the terrorist group operating in Gaza. and get this they found more than 100 suicide vests.
3. Are you aware that Saddam Hussein was sending $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers that killed israeli's
4. Are you aware that Abu Nidal (the man who hijacked the Achile Lauro ship, and murdered the man in the wheelchair lived until he died in Baghdad.
It IS true that So d_______ Insane (Saddam Husein) did not help plan the attacks against the U.S. on 9/11; but he certainly did NOT tell them to stop. He supported the terrorists by giving them space to train, and giving them money.
I hate war as much as anyone does (In fact I was in the very last draft in 1973 to go to Viet Nam.
I am deffinately a hawk in wanting to stop people who are trying to convert us or kill us; and I say stop the 2% of the Islam religion that has become radicalized and are trying to kill anyone who does not believe as they believe.
I actually feel sorry for them because they have been lied to, and are NOT practising the true religion of Islam.
Jihad is NOT about killing infidels (people who believe differently than you. True Jihad is a spiritual struggle where you overcome (or kill) the animalistic tendencies of the sub conscious mind (the inner infidel).
This is an outgrowth of Wahabi Islam who want to take the Q'uran literally (just as some nuts who want to take the bible literally and feel justified in killing abortionists, and blowing up abortion clinics.
Both are evil, and I call a spade a spade.
I have read the Bible, I have also read the Q'uran, the Bhagavad Gita, the assorted Hindu Vedas. Buddhist sutras, and many other scriptures in search for my answers, and have received the title "master" in eight disciplines and STILL working on self mastery.
I am proud to call myself a humanitarian hawk.
Two Bears
(Joni50's sister. I just joined and will have my own user name and password soon. Just couldn't pass this one up.)
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» RE: I'm a Humanitarian hawk [by your comments we must be
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: I'm a Humanitarian hawk
Posted by: kahawa
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Posted by: celticwriter on Jul 5, 2008 9:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Atheist Under Water
Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
» RE: Atheist Under Water
Posted by: celticwriter
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Posted by: kahawa on Jul 6, 2008 4:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Joni50 on Jul 6, 2008 5:21 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am very much aware of the Military industrial Complex. Those words were said by Dwight David Eisenhower when he left office.
On 9/11 those murderous islamic fascists killed more people than the number of people killed in the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941.
At least the Japanese were honorable by attacking military targets.
The Islamic fascists attacked CIVILIAN targets the twin towers. This is cowardly, and I have no use for terrorists who murder innocent men women and children.
It could be argued that the Pentagon is a valid military target. IT IS; just as the attacks on the U.S.S. Kole, and the embassies in Africa could be considered valid military targets.
However; when these scum murder innocent people in cold blood as in the attacks on the 9/11, the atacks on Madrid, the attacks in Bali, the attacks in Israel; these Islamic Fascists have crossed the line and deserves whatever the military industrial complex wants to do to them
I hear "One man's terroist is another man's freedom fighter" until I want to throw up!
The difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is the terrorist does not care who or how many they kill.
Squarehead; I would recommend for you to watch one of the videos online where these Islamic Fascists are chanting Allah Akbar (God is great) while they are sawing a human being's head off with a dull knife as he screams and begs for his life.
The Islamic fascists do not belong in civilized society.
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» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2
Posted by: Schroeder
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2
Posted by: Schroeder
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
» RE: Humanitarian Hawk part 2 [Dangerous stuff,
Posted by: kahuna_2bears
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Joni50 on Jul 6, 2008 5:47 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes I fully support the war against the Islamic Fascists.
Salman Paq is a town in southern Iraq if memory serves.
My source for claiming there was an alQaeda terrorist training base there is the fact that I saw the satellite images of the training base with the Boeing 727 without wings in the training base, and the news reports what the military found in the training camp.
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Posted by: kahuna_2bears on Jul 6, 2008 8:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would have to disagree with you there. gods are NOT imaginary. According to the young carpenter in John 10: 34-39 we ARE gods,
I have personally experienced several of the higher powers. For most of my life; in fact I felt as if God (the supreme creator) left me on the wrong planet
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» RE: All gods imaginary
Posted by: Joni50
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Posted by: Schroeder on Jul 6, 2008 7:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find the article interesting in that there seems to be a level of contempt for the compassion shown to those participating in the experiment with Hitchens. I kind of think that the inhumanity of the writer of the article is somewhat apparent. Maybe the writer thinks that waterboarding is okay if you really don't like the person being waterboarded.
Yup, I say, let everyone have the Hitchens experience who continues to say that it isn't torture...then we will see 'real change', the kind of change many of us are waiting for.
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Posted by: wwittman on Jul 7, 2008 12:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
well, by contrast, I suppose, Americans prefer to elect people to torture them collectively.
That's a BETTER choice?
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