COMMENTS: 262
Democrats Have Legalized Bush's Crimes
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House Speaker Nancy Pelosi claims that a key positive feature of the new wiretap "compromise" is that the bill reaffirms that the President must follow the law, even though the same bill virtually assures that no one will be held accountable for George W. Bush's violation of the earlier spying law. Share this article
In other words, in the guise of rejecting Bush's theories of an all-powerful presidency that is above the law, the Democratic leadership cleared the way for the President and his collaborators to evade punishment for defying the law.
So, why should anyone assume that the new legislative edict demanding that the President obey the law will get any more respect than the old one, which established the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 as the "exclusive" means for authorizing electronic spying?
It wasn't that Bush and his team didn't understand the old law's language; they simply believed they could violate the law without consequence, under the radical theory that at a time of war -- even one as vaguely defined as the "war on terror" -- the President's powers trump all laws as well as the constitutional rights of citizens.
Essentially, Bush was betting that even if his warrantless wiretap program was disclosed -- as it was in December 2005 -- that he could trust his Republican congressional allies to protect him and could count on most Democrats not to have the guts to challenge him.
His bet proved to be a smart one. After the New York Times revealed the warrantless wiretaps two and a half years ago, Congress took no steps to hold Bush accountable. Before the 2006 elections, Pelosi declared that Bush's impeachment was "off the table."
Then, on the eve of the August 2007 recess, the Democratic-controlled Congress was stampeded into passing the "Protect America Act," which effectively legalized what Bush had already done and expanded his spying powers even more.
After that law was passed, U.S. news reports mostly parroted the White House claim that it "modernized" FISA and "narrowly" targeted overseas terror suspects who might call or e-mail their contacts in the United States.
However, it soon became clear that the law applied not just to terror suspects abroad who might communicate with Americans, but to anyone who is "reasonably believed to be outside the United States" and who might possess "foreign intelligence information," defined as anything that could be useful to U.S. foreign policy.
That meant that almost any American engaged in international commerce or dealing with foreign issues -- say, a businessman in touch with a foreign subsidiary or a U.S. reporter sending an overseas story back to his newspaper -- was vulnerable to warrantless intercepts approved on the say-so of two Bush subordinates, the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence.
Beyond the breathtaking scope of this new authority, the Bush administration also snuck in a clause that granted forward-looking immunity from lawsuits to communications service providers that assisted the spying.
That removed one of the few safeguards against Bush's warrantless wiretaps: the concern among service providers that they might be sued by customers for handing over constitutionally protected information without a warrant.
In short, the "Protect America Act" made warrantless surveillance legally cost free for a collaborating service provider, tilting the scales even further in favor of the government's spying powers.
Catching on
A week after the "Protect America Act" was passed, the New York Times and the Washington Post published front-page stories explaining how the Bush administration had ambushed the Democrats.
Pressed up against the start of the August recess and the prospect of Republican taunts that Democrats were "soft on terror," the Democratic leaders abandoned earlier compromise proposals and accepted the more expansive law. Their one point of resistance was putting a February 2008 sunset provision into the law.
Still, the Democratic cave-in in August 2007 provoked an uproar among rank-and-file Democrats. Pelosi's office reported receiving more than 200,000 angry e-mails.
Stung by the reaction, House Democratic leaders balked at White House pressure to make even more concessions, including retroactive immunity for telecommunication companies that had collaborated with Bush's warrantless wiretaps in the years after the 9/11 attacks.
In February 2008, to the surprise of many observers, the Democratic leadership allowed the "Protect America Act" to lapse. Though Republicans attacked the Democrats as expected, the accusations seemed to have little political resonance.
Nevertheless, the Democratic leadership -- behind Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-West Virginia, and Rep. Steny Hoyer, D-Maryland -- continued working on a compromise.
While the new version drops some of the more intrusive features of the "Protect America Act," such as allowing warrantless wiretaps of Americans outside the United States, the bill adds retroactive telecom immunity (only requiring the companies show they got a written order from the President).
The bill also would grant the administration emergency power to wiretap a target for up to one week before getting a warrant from the secret FISA court. But the bill bars the government from targeting a foreigner as a "back-door" way to spy on an American without a court warrant.
'Capitulation'
Sen. Russell Feingold, D-Wisconsin, a strong constitutionalist, termed the new bill "not a compromise; it is a capitulation."
One of the bill's illusions would seem to be that the precedent of a President ignoring the FISA law and escaping any accountability can somehow be negated by restating what the original, violated law had declared.
In her June 20 floor statement, Pelosi said in her view this was a crucial feature of the bill, the statement that the President cannot ignore the FISA law again. However, Pelosi's position sounded like the words of an indulgent parent of a spoiled child: "This time I really mean it!"
The more powerful message from the latest Democratic compromise is that a President -- at least a Republican one -- can break the wiretap law under the cover of national security and expect to ride out the consequences.
Rather than reaffirming the rule of law and the Constitution's checks and balances, as Pelosi claimed, the new FISA "compromise" may have done the opposite, signaling that the President is above the law.
After Pelosi's speech, the House passed the bill by a 293-129 margin with 105 Democrats -- including most of the leadership -- voting in favor and 128 Democrats against. The bill then went to the Senate, which was expected to approve it.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Jun 21, 2008 1:02 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So what do we have now but two different branches of the corporate party and little chance of true reform. Nader has ensured the success of the likes of Pelosi, Hoyer and Reid to the leadership of the left wing of the corporate party and more years of business as usual.
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» Nader's shortcomings are small in comparison to what he's done for Americans
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Nader's shortcomings are small in comparison to what he's done for Americans
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Nader's shortcomings are small in comparison to what he's done for Americans
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Err, no. Whether Nader chooses to join a 3rd party or run by himself is not a failure.
Posted by: maxpayne
» WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: luzmejor
» Boy did you miss my point!
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Boy did you miss my point! No, I'm with you.
Posted by: Lauren
» good guys v. bad guys
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Everything!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: verything! It's all connected, don't you see?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Everything! It's all connected, don't you see?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: herronsmith
» RE: WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: warble
» RE: WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: sicntired
» So this time, everyone vote for McKinney... she is serious.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: So this time, everyone vote for McKinney... she is serious.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: So this time, everyone vote for McKinney... she is serious.
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: So this time, everyone vote for McKinney... she is serious.
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: I Love McKinney But......
Posted by: desidid
» RE: I Love McKinney But......
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: I Love McKinney But......
Posted by: desidid
» Yeah, well maybe if a few more of us did some serious smacking around....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: alph Nader's Greatest Failure ...
Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: alph Nader's Greatest Failure ...
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: alph Nader's Greatest Failure ...
Posted by: john mont
» RE: alph Nader's Greatest Failure ...
Posted by: warble
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Jun 21, 2008 1:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: sawdust
» They won't need to steam roll Obama, he has already sold out....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: They won't need to steam roll Obama, he has already sold out....
Posted by: desidid
» RE: They won't need to steam roll Obama, he has already sold out....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: hermjo
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: indepentent
» Here Is A List Of The Traitors!
Posted by: TarryFaster
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: jporter
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: oregonox
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: Doubtom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mystery Solver on Jun 21, 2008 1:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Obama said the legislation is a 'compromise' from last year's Protect America Act and reduces rather than increases the Bush administration's power to spy on Americans."
http://rawstory.com/news/
WELL WELL WELL - YOUR MESSIAH IS LOOKING MORE AND MORE LIKE THE TYPICAL WASHINGTON INSIDER. WHERE'S THE "CHANGE"?
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» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: dustdevil
» or expose his drug running operations and the shadow gov it finances.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: or expose his drug running operations and the shadow gov it finances.
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: or expose his drug running operations and the shadow gov it finances.
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: or expose his drug running operations and the shadow gov it finances.
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: carbon-based
» I agree that the planning for 9/11 started years ago . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» If Gore were President!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: If Gore were President!
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: If Gore were President!
Posted by: indepentent
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: billslm
» which means...... the court was a rubber stamp anyway.....so why???
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: leafsong1
» The Constitution, Bill of Rights
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: Purple Girl
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: Fencerider
» What about the bill Obama just introduced.... tell us how that is good...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: Mystery Solver
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: helenwheels
» You sound like Bush supporters even today. They still refuse to see...
Posted by: Prophit
» We see, oh confused one....
Posted by: greenPuker
» My fingerprints are no where on file, sir.... mr name caller....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: We see, oh confused one....
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Actually Obama Said
Posted by: desidid
» He has since backed off of that position......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: maxaron
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Give Me Liberty or give Me Death -
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Give Me Liberty or give Me Death -
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Give Me Liberty or give Me Death -
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Give Me Liberty or give Me Death -
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: SouthernWolf
» RE: mystery solver touched a hot wire here
Posted by: warble
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: sicntired
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: EdNet
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Jun 21, 2008 1:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Forget the Constitution or judicial casuistries: we are in an epoch of Raw Power. The corruption, it seems, is Dead Center and Bi-Partisan. This is Tyranny. The Democrats waited for the right moment, when the real issues confronting the people mount daily and attention and energy towards resistance is least likely to be found to pass this infamous Surrender.
When one of these so-called 'leaders' demands of others to follow the Law, others may ask: why? for it was an 'exceptional' circumstance. What will MAKE them follow the Law? The Police. Welcome to the New World Order.
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» RE: Momentous
Posted by: riley
» RE: Momentous
Posted by: helenwheels
» Thank you, Talkville, except summary straight to the heart of ....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Momentous
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Momentous
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Pelosi has been taking orders from AIPAC....... And Wall STreet
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tlees2 on Jun 21, 2008 3:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: "Off the table"
Posted by: billslm
» RE: "Off the table"
Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: "Off the table"
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: "Off the table"
Posted by: Lauren
» Do you have proof of that contract award??? Any link would be....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Do you have proof of that contract award??? Any link would be....
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jun 21, 2008 4:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am voting for Obama- Not my first choice, but the only one worth supporting & working to get in Office.
But I will be voting Against ALL others from my State MI- So third Party Candidates throw your hat in the ring. I'd like to hand Pres Obama a new clean Congres to work with.
Pelosi Reid Hoyer.... All should face charges of High Crimes along with this Administration, they are not just enablers- they are Co Conspirators and Accomplices.
My hope is that Sen Obama offers the VP to Sen Hagel (R), He has a Track record which would compliment Sen Obama's and would aid US i Bring out the patriotic vote- Proving our country is more interested in regaining Our control over Gov't and not Party Politics- Patriots Are Color Blind.
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» Don't forget how Hagel got elected . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: Don't forget how Hagel got elected . . .
Posted by: anna132
» actually Hagels company in Nebraska supplied the machines that....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Don't forget how Hagel got elected . . .
Posted by: Lauren
» Actually, I agree with this recommendation wholeheartedly......
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: billslm on Jun 21, 2008 5:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I called my congress woman in the House this morning to urge her to vote no on the warrantless wiretapping issue. I was assured she already had done so--- even though the bill passed easily. She, at least, is one who maintained the faith. But she is leaving congress. The bad apples will not allow the good ones to remain honorable.
So the good are being driven out by the bad. And that is the real problem. Those who have sold out have finally driven out the Democrats who really are trying to accomplish something.
Recall Pelosi! Hoyer! Reid! They stand against real Americans.
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» RE: Democrats Are Shameless Sellouts
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: jeffreytaos on Jun 21, 2008 5:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Imagine a compromise on marijuana laws, that allowed anyone to possess and grow just a little bit from a little seed for a little compassion and a little kindness to themselves.
Imagine the compromise went something like this: If you kill, maim or wound another human being in the act of growing, buying, or importing marijuana, you shall be sentenced to jail in line with laws dictating such bad behavior, but if you have harmed no person, animal, or other being in your actions, then you shall be free to remain free.
Imagine, a marijuana compromise.
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» Hey, toker...you are OFFPOINT!
Posted by: greenPuker
» Makes perefect sense to me!!! It is the Law!
Posted by: garry minor
» RE: Hey, toker...you are OFFPOINT! NOT
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Nightgauntlet...
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Hey greenPuker, ...you are the one who is OFF putting!
Posted by: Lauren
» Goodness,,,lauren! Guilt upped and grabbed you!
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Goodness,,,lauren! Guilt upped and grabbed you!
Posted by: robert.noll
» RE: Now, if we could just compromise on Marijuana!
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rgoalierob on Jun 21, 2008 6:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The First Item For The New Congress; Vote Pelosi Out!
Posted by: Phred42
» RE: The First Item For The New Congress; Vote Pelosi Out!
Posted by: anna132
» Pelosi's a scare old geriatric; Afraid to initiate power of truth in the face of denial.
Posted by: common intelligence
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Phred42 on Jun 21, 2008 6:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then must follow through on their removal.
Pelosi and Reid are either:
- Involved in the illegal and corrupt activity
- are being Blackmailed
- or are Cowards.
Any way you slice it - they are not capable of completing their Sworn duties
They MUST be removed Immediately.
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» They Are anti-Constitutional Globalists
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Barack - IT's time to show Leadership and make the hard decisions
Posted by: Mystery Solver
» RE: Barack - IT's time to show Leadership and make the hard decisions
Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: Barack - IT's time to show Leadership and make the hard decisions
Posted by: greenPuker
» You don't get it...... Obama is one of them.... where do you think he came from?
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: FBI DNA data base started in 1999 & AFPIS data base.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: You don't get it...... Obama is one of them!!
Posted by: greenPuker
» Dream on, Sunshine
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: One Thing We Know About Barack Is
Posted by: desidid
» Brass ba__s for sure
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Brass ba__s for sure
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: covalentbonded on Jun 21, 2008 6:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Strike/Boycott 08
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» RE: or just expendable
Posted by: Lauren
» Strike! 09/11/ 08!
Posted by: rancespergl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JSquercia on Jun 21, 2008 7:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is Sad to think that we don't have ENOUGH Senators who would DEFEND the Constitution that we are Unable to threaten a fillibuster, a tactic that the Republicans have used constantly this session
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» RE: Parents
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Last Chance on Jun 21, 2008 7:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» We would be arrested for spying on the terrorists who did 9-11.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: In the Bill itself
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stonesoupstation on Jun 21, 2008 7:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: The Populist on Jun 21, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
on his ability to follow through on his promises.
Now I feel used, played, stood up, cynical (more
than usual), and ambivalent.
Nader where are you!!!
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» Obama has begun and will Sell out. Watch the unfolding!
Posted by: common intelligence
» Well, thats one way to globalize........ LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: eformation
Posted by: liberalibrarian
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jun 21, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(That was before I read that he MAY try to strip the immunity provision in the Senate. But since that basically has zero chance of succeeding, and he should know that, then I am not putting the sign back up.)
(THAT will show him....)
Jesus Bleeping Christ! Why are Democrats the biggest pussies on the planet!? And what the Republicans say about them IS true. They ARE traitors! (But the Republicans are traitors to even more of an extent. And that is saying a LOT.)
WE are literally doomed.
You know, what makes it even worse is that our children are brainwashed in school to believe that America is "free", even to believe that America is the freest of all nations. BIGGEST LOAD OF BS EVER!
What do we tell our kids now, after they get home from a school day of learning about our Founding Fathers and about pledging allegiance to the American flag and all that tripe?
I am so sick of all this crap.
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» For God's sakes, whatever you do, you tell your children the TRUTH....
Posted by: Prophit
» Oh sweet Jeesus! The whole system, both parties are infiltrated.
Posted by: greenPuker
» Don't like it? DON'T BREED IN CAPTIVITY
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jayjanson on Jun 21, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The children of Afghanis, Somalis and Iraqis are dying in daily U.S. air stikes now authorized and abetted by a fascist mother.
These beautiful children are the children of our Iraqi, Afghani and Somali brothers and sisters and their deaths distort the appearance of sister Pelosi's three children and their social education
painfully,
jay janson
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» RE: Fascist Mom Pelosi Condemns Iraqi, Afghani, Somali children to death
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Fascist Mom Pelosi Condemns Iraqi, Afghani, Somali children to death
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: diliff on Jun 21, 2008 7:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Nope buckeye. Not right!
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Nope buckeye. Not right!
Posted by: diliff
» RE: buckeye
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jun 21, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But in any case, we'll NEVER find out the true extent of the spying now, will we?
America is NOT free.
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» RE: Oh, Barack, you should remember this
Posted by: anna132
» RE: Oh, Barack, you should remember this
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Oh, Barack, you should remember this...see anna!
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: donl51 on Jun 21, 2008 8:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: And we misguided fools
Posted by: Lauren
» Arrest you? Gosh no, Lauren not when you're protected!
Posted by: greenPuker
» misguided fool
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: And we misguided fools (what's this we crappola)
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Jun 21, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, I do not have any insider knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors. All I know is that is what Congressional leadership does.
And I also know that our simple-minded press corps is too lazy to ever do the work it would take to find out. "Don't believe anything you read," and only half of what you hear.
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» Always appreciate your informative posts.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: I guess no one else knows what they got for the trade.
Posted by: Lauren
» "Same as it ever was." --Talking Heads
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oldurn on Jun 21, 2008 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama on the FISA 'Compromise' ...
"Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people. There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders.
"That is why last year I opposed the so-called Protect America Act, which expanded the surveillance powers of the government without sufficient independent oversight to protect the privacy and civil liberties of innocent Americans. I have also opposed the granting of retroactive immunity to those who were allegedly complicit in acts of illegal spying in the past.
"After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's Protect America Act.
"Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act.
"It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people."
From "Talking Points Memo"
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» All the more reason to never listen to what Obama says
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: All the more reason to never listen to what Obama says
Posted by: lenioui
» Why should he have to intervene at all if it is well structured?
Posted by: PaulC
» Why should he have to intervene?
Posted by: zipper696
» Informationguru remix.
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: common intelligence on Jun 21, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe in another sense, that these street people that are voted into office have much more than a 6th grade understanding of anything.
Hense Politicians. That's Poll Practicianiers.
They're like poker players that just play the odds in what it will take to keep their jobs.
They have no understanding of the impact and consequences of their decissions. Bush, just the other day, said he wanted to be remembered
as the president that , "when he looked in the mirror, saw a man of his convictions that would not compromise his principles." .
He has said before that he idolized Harry S. Truman for this very ideology.
This is the mind set of an unconscious compulsive, self centered sociopath.
How in hell is he still in office getting his way? This is beyond my comprehension?
It is purely evident the answer to the my question is the American people and those that represent the "will" of the people are unconscious too and are the most gutless people on earth.
The original blind bravery that drives young people to join the military to do something "right" has more merit than that of the politicians especially the likes of Pelosi. These are the two faces scum that undermine the very foundation of democracy, the The Constitution.
I mean, what the hell do the media and Bush Repuks mean that "they" want to establish Democracy around the world yet actually is destroying it here in our our country?
Can't people see it?
Perspectively, I know of "illegal" latinos, Mexicans, Guatamalians, Salvadorians, even Aussies, Euro's and Americans themselves changing their plans to stay in America. There by going back to their home countries because there is greater chance for a better life there than here, now.
"Bet you didn't know gas in Mexico is $2.00 a gallon".
And as I have been told by these people $5000 will get you thu 6 months of living comfortably and less stress than $50,000 here with no hope of owning your own home!
There are the same Home Depots and Target stores and Walmarts there as there is here. So what keeps Americans here? Attachment to failed infrastuctures, broken levies, broken dreams, repossesed homes? Industrial dependance on China and lack of educational opportunities.......Just what is it that Americans are doing by allowing ther own homeland being taken over by a fascist regime? Without a fight no less? Any country in the world , the people would not put up with the lies this country is living under.
It appears there are more reasons to put up barriers to keeping people from getting out of the United states than keeping foreigners from getting in.
I saw on a box of Safeway (generic brand) cereal the full back panel with "the American Presidents & Their Times". It displayed the names and a one line note on their accomplishments.
GWB was listed as saying (only) that he Established Homeland security".
A man around his mid thirties is portrayed in a news focus on network TV, interview about him and his wifes' lose of property , Twice, from flooding and levy breakage. He obviuously is shown with a T-shirt that says, "Proud to Be An American" .
NOW what the hell is that suppose to mean?
So where is our Homeland Security? Do you think they really mean Corporate securtiy?
(Sorry I get carried away)
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» RE: Who are the Demo's that voted FOR it?
Posted by: Lauren
» A list of Domestic enemies, Traitors to the United States of America Part 1
Posted by: common intelligence
» Domestic Enemies Part 2
Posted by: common intelligence
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ozonehole on Jun 21, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to know how your representative voted, you can see the results here:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2008-437
I'm not a single-issue voter, but this bill was a litmus test for me. Any Democrat who voted for its passage is basically a Republican pretending to be a Democrat.
Obama has failed us. I had planned to vote for him this November, but now I just can't bring myself to do it. He said that he didn't approve of the telecom immunity, but in the end he voiced support for the bill. The Senate hasn't voted on the bill yet, but it's almost certain to pass with full telecom immunity. It will be interesting to see how Obama votes (if he votes - he doesn't spend much time in Washington these days).
Disgusted as I am with Obama, I can't support McCain either - he's worse by far.
So I think I'll vote Libertarian. It is not with much enthusiasm. Nobody needs to tell me about how the Libertarians have a lousy record on environmental protection, they lack a coherent energy policy, they love deregulation, etc - I know all that. They're basically Ron Paul Republicans, with all the good and bad that entails.
The Libertarians have a very good record (to the extent they have any record at all) on civil liberties, and this foul FISA legislation is definitely a civil liberties issue.
I'm suspicious of their candidate Bob Barr - a good Republican who suddenly decided two years ago that he'd become a Libertarian. But who else am I going to vote for - a write-in vote for Ralph Nader? Most states just toss write-in votes into the trash can, uncounted. The Green Party appears to be in chaos, and are unlikely to challenge Obama.
I'm not expecting the Libertarians to win, but a good showing (over 5%) would at least be a nice protest vote. Maybe it would get the Democrats' attention and make them try harder - I can always hope. If anyone's got a better suggestion than voting Libertarian, I'd love to hear it.
Let's face it - we're living in a police state now. The Rethugs brought us here, but the spineless Democrats just bent over and spread. Disgusting. I'll see how it goes this November, but in the end I might just vote with my feet - emigration never sounded so good.
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» Vote for Cynthia McKinney......
Posted by: Prophit
» I'm A Green Libertarian
Posted by: left_libertarian
» McKinney/Barr
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Voting Libertarian
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Voting left-Libertarian? Why?
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Screw voting, Start Shooting !
Posted by: common intelligence
» RE: Screw voting, Start Shooting !
Posted by: sicntired
» RE: Voting Libertarian
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jun 21, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Gov't is not only the enemy of the People,it's the enemy of the world and it will be our children who pay the toll. Long after the real criminals get away. We must take control of our own gov't before we get nailed by another country we've screwed over. The whole mid-east situation is the way it is because we've been playing both ends against the middle for generations. We deal with Arabs because they use cash money for their deals,the Isrealis we give credit to. They were never supposed to have nukes,but they damn sure do and they are'nt afraid to use them.Most of the folks that are in Gov't use force of arms to insure Peace. There was never a Peace attained back of Force. Anytime you start killing for Peace you'll never get it because use of force only breeds contempt for the country using force. There will always be someone's relative who got killed that will want revenge,so there is never a true Peace from force of arms. Just a kind of uneasy waiting game. The Arab world may not have liked Hussain very much but they really detest killing eachother. It violates the Koran.
But over here we call ourselves 'christians'. If you look at our history since 1492 you'll rightly see the greatest genocide was done by 'christians'. The very thing we're supposed to not do.Too
many people have been slaughtered in the name of Christ. So much so we might as well call ourselves the Nation of the Anti-Christ. It's
these very fools that call themselves 'democrats' that are the next worst problem for America. They are loyal to their biggest monetary supporters,not the People.
Their supporters want war. It makes them money.
They don't care with whom as long as multi-million dollar cruise missles get used.
The remedy...STOP HAVING YOUR KIDS SIGN UP FOR THE DRAFT. Discourage military service of any kind,in the most strongest possible terms.
Stop believing the two party system really represents us. They do not and never have.
Boycott the election!!! Find out who's in the electoral college and block their driveways so they can't vote in another killing force president. Make election day the day millions of people go to DC and piss on the washington monument,that's the only vote they're good enough for. Save the lives of your friends and family by removing the gov't from power. We have the right to do it but do we have the will? I think we do,so do millions of others.
Jeffrey7 for Prez '08
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» RE: This is why they can't be trusted
Posted by: Lauren
» Been there,Tried that......
Posted by: jeffrey7
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wildbill on Jun 21, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: They didn't 'cave in' they did their business, just not ours.
Posted by: Lauren
» Vote for the Slightly-less-evil Party!
Posted by: leafsong1
» If Obama doesn't need public money, he doesn't need mine.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Jun 21, 2008 10:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just gave fifty dollars USD. And it feels great.
If she get enough money, she may be able to get Pelosi dismissed from Congress.
She is a little bit of a goof ball, but her heart is in the right place.
Remember she lost a son in the Iraq war, she knows what this war costs first hand. She is not a phony like Pelosi and Obama.
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» RE: Give money to the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign.
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Give money to the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign.
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Give money to the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign.
Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: Give money to the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign.
Posted by: Doubtom
» Why isn't she running Green?
Posted by: antiapathy
» RE: Why isn't she running Green?
Posted by: Doubtom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jun 21, 2008 11:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ozonehole on Jun 21, 2008 11:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guess what? Just checked back. My post is gone, along with all the other posts mentioning FISA. The Obama blog moderators have apparently been very busy.
I must give Alternet praise for allowing this discussion. There was also some good comments posted yesterday at Huffingtonpost. The official Democratic Party blogs don't want to hear it - just pretend the vote didn't happen. Ditto for the Republicans - they are even more guilty. Haven't heard a peep out of Fox News and AM hate radio either.
Compare that to just a few months ago when the last (unsuccessful) attempt was made to get this odious legislation passed - the MSM gave telecom immunity lots of airtime (mostly to Republicans). The neocons were fiercely denouncing the Democrats for "caving in to terrorists", while the Democrats were just as fiercely insisting that they couldn't compromise on the 4th amendment.
Now the issue has disappeared. Most people don't even know the vote happened. The Senate needs to vote on it again next week - anyone want to bet that it will be less publicized than National Cucumber Week?
Now let's discuss American flag lapel pins. And "hope and change."
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» RE: Obama's blog page - don't mention FISA
Posted by: reelectnoone
» RE: Obama's blog page - don't mention FISA
Posted by: sicntired
» My post is gone, along with all the other posts mentioning FISA.
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reelectnoone on Jun 21, 2008 12:04 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We will try to spread that idea as far and wide as possible to put telcom on notice that their paying customers want to know where they stand with regards to being law abiding citizens vs. criminals we can't trust with our communications.
I will be curios to see their response and will post here later. First I will write and post my letter to AT&T for all to read, pass on and hopefully mail to AT&T, Verison, Sprint and so on.
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» My Verizon account changed the terms within days of the proposal to hold them accountable.
Posted by: Sojourner
» EVERYONE that has a Verizon account
Posted by: Persephone8
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Jun 21, 2008 12:11 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great nation.
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Posted by: JayHaden on Jun 21, 2008 12:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Nightstallion on Jun 21, 2008 12:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead she has consecutively and blatantly supported bush his war and the Corporatocracy which will reap the profits from any war scenarios. This is why I started calling this Party THE DEMONRATS to begin with! These people are opportunistic, serve themselves and war profiteering, and will invade your privacy looking for those AMERICANS who dislike or disagree with them.
Now is not the time to be in denial, now is the time to oust all these encysted worms. They have betrayed the people who voted for them at every turn. Now they have set up a Geheime Staats Polizei (Secret State Police) in the form of Homeland Security, Eschelon (wire tapping service) and the Jackbooted Blackwater as the Strike force/S.W.A.T strong arm goons.
When is it ok to hate? I cannot love these guys. I am opposed to bullies and have always hated them. How did I get here from Nancy Pelosi? She has voted to invite this kind of stinking crap to stay around awhile till it has to be used on us to shut up our bitching. To many of us that’s cool because we don’t want to think about it, we want to have our every want and need attended till death us part the earth.
Some of us, Republicans included will even shout Heil and Viva as the Gestapo is loading up our children in buses or dump trucks headed for the Ovens. This must be what we want. Otherwise we would be chasing politicians around with hot tar, ropes, goose down pillows and #2 railroad rails till we could get them to stop this shit.
Did I hear someone say what shit? I mean George Bush and his goddamned War on humanity’s rights to life without interference from some dickhead politician. That’s who Nancy Pelosi, McCain, Obama, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rove, Chertoff and all the other warmongers will support till the cows come home. The only good politician is a Tarred and Feathered Politician!
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Posted by: jvaljon1 on Jun 21, 2008 12:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First thing this woman said, when we (I was a Democrat in 2006) HANDED HER CONTROL OF THE HOUSE, was: "Impeachment (of Bush/Cheney) is OFF THE TABLE." That was Betrayal Number One; and upon hearing Lady Nancy proclaim thusly, I took myself down to my city hall, whereupon I registered as an Independent.
Now I see that she's actually gonna forgive Bush his war crimes? OMG! To what end? Or--wait! Can it BE? No, say it isn't so!
Could La Nancy have had an...ummmm...liaison of sorts (a la Condi Rice) with Duh Prez?!!!
This isn't treatment from a Speaker of the House, as much as it is, from a Lover!!!
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Posted by: chlamor on Jun 21, 2008 1:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even many whose views are developed enough to recognize such truths as the fundamental rottenness of the 2-party system & the complicity of Democrats in all of the Republicans' major crimes, are still unable to draw the logical consequences of these insights. (Those so naive that they still conceive of Democrats as being the "opponents" of Republicans are another case altogether.)
The central point is this: capitalist society permits the Democrats to be one of the 2 allowed parties for a very definite reason. It's not because the Democrats "serve the people." It's because in a subtle but effective way, they help the capitalists keep the populace under control by providing them with the illusion of possible change. TPTB don't want the people "served." They want them managed, or controlled.
It is the job, the central social function of the Democrats to always be dangling before the people's noses vague pseudo-hints of possible change, so as to keep them from bolting from bourgeois politics altogether. It is the Democrats' intention to never deliver meaningful change, but rather to keep dangling hints of it alluringly forever. This produces control -- a populace habituated to remain safely within the lines required by ruling class interests.
This is why the Democrats NEVER paint a picture of US history that's the slightest bit accurate -- they want a brainwashed population every bit as much as the Republicans do. This is why they NEVER are willing to set forth an honest socioeconomic analysis of why things are as they are -- they much prefer that people not understand such things.
As long as a large chunk of voters can be deceived by the seemingly "nicer guy" act of the Democrats, there is no hope whatever of coming to grips with the core problems of our society. The most dangerous trends -- a wasteful consumer society, environmental destruction, grotesque social inequality, and an uncontrollable propaganda/war machine -- cannot even be approached within the framework of bourgeois politics, because they all serve ruling class interests. This is what is really being protected, when people opt to support Democrats just because they seem less blatantly cruel on TV.
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Posted by: chlamor on Jun 21, 2008 1:47 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's just a fallacy to believe that the Democrats can somehow be transformed into a political force defending the interests of the broader public. That's not what they are. That they dare posture as the "party of the people" is an insult to our collective intelligence. In reality, they use this tattered & tired popular image to collude with the rightwing, confuse the public, & sell us out at every turn.
The following are intended to sharpen the Dems' message, defining what they stand for and how they’re different from Republicans.
1. "We Surrender."
2. "Please don't yell at us, we're frightened."
3. "Would you like us to roll over on our backs now, or do you prefer that we remain on our knees?"
4. "Let's bomb Iran."
5. "We stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the President."
6. "We stand for rule by a kinder, gentler military-industrial complex."
7. "What's good for MobilExxon, Citicorp, and Northrop-Grumman is good for America."
8. "If you like venal cowards and betrayal, vote for us!"
9. "Please don't ask us to stand up to the Republicans. They get very angry if anyone opposes them -- and it's really scary!!"
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» RE: The Democrats are just a faction of the enemy
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: The Democrats are just a faction of the enemy
Posted by: chlamor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dayahka on Jun 21, 2008 4:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: westomoon on Jun 21, 2008 4:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am furious at my own Rep, who voted "aye", and at Pelosi and Hoyer, and that blithering fool Jane Harman (again). But I am not so silly as to be furious at "the Democrats". The fact remains that 128 Dems (and one brave R) voted against this travesty, including most of the grand old names -- Conyers, Dingell, Frank, Inslee, Kaptur, George Miller, Mollohan, Obey, Pastor, Rangell, Sarbanes, Tsongas, Waxman, and Wexler.
We are not as stupid as the neocons and the Blue Dogs tell us we are. This vote is reason to get rid of a lot of incumbents, including the inexpressibly vile House leadership who engineered this crime, but not the D party -- yet. In my State, the primaries for Congress are still in the future, and my Congressman has a Dem challenger -- who just acquired at least one new donor/volunteer last night.
Most of all... this is just the House, people! This vote is reason to start leaning on our Senators, including Obama, as hard as we can. Even if the Senate simply passes a different version, much can be accomplished in conference committee -- as Tom DeLay's crowd taught us so well. This site gives you contact info for everyone, including Harry Reid.
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» RE: A majority of Dems voted against it, How could you leave out....
Posted by: Turiye
» There are 129 names to be praised
Posted by: westomoon
» RE: There are 129 names to be praised
Posted by: desidid
» desidid
Posted by: westomoon
» RE:westomoon
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cdcmtotr on Jun 21, 2008 4:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Mourning
Posted by: honestlyoutraged
» RE: Mourning
Posted by: Dianka
Comments are closed-
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jun 21, 2008 5:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The voting machines are literally programed to produce favorable results for the two ruling elite parties.
Remember the corruption of the voting machines, and the promises to correct them?
Nothing has changed. The voting system is still a corrupt mess.
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» RE: Do you know why the Democrats don't respond to the will of the people?
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
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Posted by: Turiye on Jun 21, 2008 5:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And insofar as the Senate is concerned it's on their legislative calender #816, could be 819, and no date is given for when this will be heard, so she's wrong again.
Go to thomas.gov, for the Vote Call the number is:Roll Call 437.
Always use the fed sites if you want the correct text. Or just watch it on Cspan, as for McClellan you only had to go to the Senate Daily schedule and you could have live streamed his entire testimony.
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» So write to your Senator today, and tomorrow, and every day till they vote
Posted by: westomoon
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Posted by: Dianka on Jun 21, 2008 7:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jun 21, 2008 8:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
http://www.Fireme.To/udi
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Posted by: Kimberlrae on Jun 21, 2008 9:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The capitulation on immunity for Telcoms is a HUGE disappointment, but I'm wondering, now that Bush is headed for Crawford in 6 months, what this means for the next prez, if he's Obama. Can he overturn the bill then?
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» Overturning /repealing FISA , PATRIOT Act ...
Posted by: Persephone8
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Posted by: jporter on Jun 22, 2008 12:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Do a Write in Vote for RON PAUL
Posted by: Persephone8
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Posted by: davy on Jun 22, 2008 12:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Keystone on Jun 22, 2008 1:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jun 22, 2008 6:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Think your ISP is spying on you?
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Posted by: ikonoklast on Jun 22, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The key is to stop voting for Republicans or Democrats. Don't cast a single vote to put a Dem or Rep in office. Only vote for Independents and 3rd party candidates. That's the only way to take our country back from the two-faced political machine.
This is going to be an incredibly difficult strategy to pursue, but I believe it is the only way to bring peace, justice, equality, and security to America. The political machines are so entrenched in our collective culture that even with concerted effort this is going to take years--possibly even lifetimes. However, I am convinced this is the only sane and effective way to shift political power to the people.
The key, as with all grass-root efforts, is to start small and local, and allow momentum to build and propel the movement. Start on a local level, and tell your friends, to turn your back on the majority parties. Cut them off--completely.
This is a scary task to contemplate: what if taking support away from Democrats at this critical time allows the Republicans to continue to run roughshod over the country? Well, look around--the Dems won in 2006 and what the fuck have they done for us lately?
If your worried about this year's elections--well, so am I. I still believe Obama is going to be a damn sight better than McCain, and Barack is getting my vote in November--but after that the Democrats are cut off. They will not receive another vote from me until they start doing their jobs, and based on past experience I don't find that likely.
I'll continue to support progressive Independent and 3rd-party candidates and encourage others to do so. I'll be doing my part to break the 2-party stranglehold, and I hope you will too.
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» RE: It's time to break the political parties!
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
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Posted by: Persephone8 on Jun 22, 2008 9:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4df1soW7Dho&NR=1
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Posted by: PaulC on Jun 22, 2008 10:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I am doing is shifting any money they would have gotten over to the enviro groups that I favor. This way I have the best of both worlds - I punish the Dems and I help my favorite causes.
And best of all, this narrow targeting of my funds puts ME back in control of how my contributions, anyway, are being spent.
peace,
Paul
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Posted by: rtmyth on Jun 22, 2008 2:16 PM
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Posted by: frantaylor on Jun 22, 2008 2:41 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Except this administration has made fast-and-loose the rule rather than the exception. The Democrats don't want to crack down because that ruins it for everyone. The Republicans know this and are pushing things way too far. This is the beginning of the end because now everyone knows that the rules are "off the table" and anarchy sets in. Look out.
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jun 22, 2008 3:34 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can anyone who has listened to political campaign after campaign and taken what was espoused and promised at face value believe that the people we elect control our country?
The military industrial complex corporations who staged a silent coup in the early 1950s, and their corporate latter-day clones put these clowns up for election, then dictate to them what they will do.
How in the H--- else do you explain U.S. history - including perpetuation to the total exclusion of everything else of an obsolute energy system like that dependent upon oil - since then? How do you explain a presidencey now risen to that of outright despotism (the current one has publicly repudiated his oath of office, for heaven's sake!)? How else do you explain a military grown to the mind-boggling size and costs of this one (while you're at it, explain an agency, the CIA, made able since its inception to spend as much as it chooses without accounting).
How else do you explain an Operation MOCKINGBIRD, a program designed to co-opt and control the new media and the nation's mind (explain, too, how a nation's public could otherwise have become to blind and sheep-like as this one).
Come on, people - wake up!
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Posted by: chlamor on Jun 22, 2008 5:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anytime you see anything I post consider it yours.
I doubt seriously there are many publishers interested in the stuff I might write. BTW I self-produce booklets and distribute locally.
I will post a link to a few here:
Booklet# 4
Booklet #3
If you're interested in the other two booklets head to the links and send me a PM and I'll mail them to you.
I have two more on the way. But I consider none of the ideas to be original nor to be held in ownership. We are in dire need of political movements and need to actively work towards resisting the hegemony of the political parties.
Solidarity.
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Posted by: JohnHKennedy Denver CO on Jun 23, 2008 8:20 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A PROPOSAL... Suppose some person or group organize a
National BOYCOTT OF ALL CONGRESSMEN IN THE ELECTION?
Urge Voters to vote for the Presidential Candidate of their choice,
BUT ASK VOTERS TO NOT VOTE FOR
ANY Democratic or Republican CONGRESSMAN
FOR ANY FEDERAL OFFICE
(either House or Senate)
You’ll get the President You Want
But the BOYCOTT of Congressmen might Upset
the Vote Totals enough
To Send A Message To ALL Congressmen to
TAKE THEIR OATH OF OFFICE SERIOUSLY
and to
To Protect Our Constitution,
AND TO IMPEACH When It Is Obvious To ALL that Crimes have been committed By The Executive Branch.
They have ignored everything we have said or done to get them to obey the Constitution and at least hold impeachment hearings. WHY NOT TRY THIS?
A National Vote Boycott of All Congressmen
from both parties in November.
They might get the message in time to save themselves before the 2010 election.
..
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Posted by: liberalibrarian on Jun 23, 2008 9:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I will continue to support the Democrats i.e Obama unless and until he is in office and sells out.
Stay home and put your heads in the sand if you like--I'm going to stay engaged with the Democratic party...the least reprehensible if you want to call it that.
Nobody's perfect--but I think he will do his best to change the course America has taken over the last 8 years. What is all this let's not support any of them BS on Alternet all the time these days--do you really think your voting for marginal progressives here and there is really going to help?
How naive you are.
The process takes time. Getting the Democratic party in and getting the Repugs out is the first step--maybe in 2012 or soon thereafter the country will consist of Democrats who are central/liberal and Green/Progressives who can drive their agenda...but first things first--let's get the neocons out of business.
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» RE: So what are you going to do?
Posted by: ikonoklast
» We are doing negative campaigning against Dems who hate our Consitution
Posted by: JohnHKennedy Denver CO
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Posted by: hvannes on Jun 23, 2008 7:22 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hvannes on Jun 23, 2008 7:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mnstra on Jun 24, 2008 8:23 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: EdNet on Jun 27, 2008 7:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From "national security" to FISA to taking on a really lame-duck president. From fighting corporate food producers, corporate pharmaceuticals, corporate media to fighting for citizens' civil and constitutional rights, too many Democrats have shown weakness.
But now, because of the Supreme Court ruling on handguns, all that can change. Change we can believe in!
Senator Obama, the leader of the "new and changed" Democratic Party, boasting his street creds, recently said that if they (Republicans) bring a knife to the fight, we will bring a gun!
Well now is your chance, Senator. You talked the talk, now walk the walk.
OK. We know it was a metaphor. But it does provide an opportunity to lead Democrats to change.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Jun 21, 2008 1:02 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So what do we have now but two different branches of the corporate party and little chance of true reform. Nader has ensured the success of the likes of Pelosi, Hoyer and Reid to the leadership of the left wing of the corporate party and more years of business as usual.
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» Nader's shortcomings are small in comparison to what he's done for Americans
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Nader's shortcomings are small in comparison to what he's done for Americans
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Nader's shortcomings are small in comparison to what he's done for Americans
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Err, no. Whether Nader chooses to join a 3rd party or run by himself is not a failure.
Posted by: maxpayne
» WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: luzmejor
» Boy did you miss my point!
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Boy did you miss my point! No, I'm with you.
Posted by: Lauren
» good guys v. bad guys
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Everything!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: verything! It's all connected, don't you see?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Everything! It's all connected, don't you see?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: herronsmith
» RE: WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: warble
» RE: WTF does Nader have to do with this article?
Posted by: sicntired
» So this time, everyone vote for McKinney... she is serious.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: So this time, everyone vote for McKinney... she is serious.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: So this time, everyone vote for McKinney... she is serious.
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: So this time, everyone vote for McKinney... she is serious.
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: I Love McKinney But......
Posted by: desidid
» RE: I Love McKinney But......
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: I Love McKinney But......
Posted by: desidid
» Yeah, well maybe if a few more of us did some serious smacking around....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: alph Nader's Greatest Failure ...
Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: alph Nader's Greatest Failure ...
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: alph Nader's Greatest Failure ...
Posted by: john mont
» RE: alph Nader's Greatest Failure ...
Posted by: warble
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Jun 21, 2008 1:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: sawdust
» They won't need to steam roll Obama, he has already sold out....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: They won't need to steam roll Obama, he has already sold out....
Posted by: desidid
» RE: They won't need to steam roll Obama, he has already sold out....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: hermjo
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: indepentent
» Here Is A List Of The Traitors!
Posted by: TarryFaster
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: jporter
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: oregonox
» RE: Feckless losers
Posted by: Doubtom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mystery Solver on Jun 21, 2008 1:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Obama said the legislation is a 'compromise' from last year's Protect America Act and reduces rather than increases the Bush administration's power to spy on Americans."
http://rawstory.com/news/
WELL WELL WELL - YOUR MESSIAH IS LOOKING MORE AND MORE LIKE THE TYPICAL WASHINGTON INSIDER. WHERE'S THE "CHANGE"?
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» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: dustdevil
» or expose his drug running operations and the shadow gov it finances.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: or expose his drug running operations and the shadow gov it finances.
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: or expose his drug running operations and the shadow gov it finances.
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: or expose his drug running operations and the shadow gov it finances.
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: carbon-based
» I agree that the planning for 9/11 started years ago . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» If Gore were President!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: If Gore were President!
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: If Gore were President!
Posted by: indepentent
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: billslm
» which means...... the court was a rubber stamp anyway.....so why???
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: leafsong1
» The Constitution, Bill of Rights
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: Purple Girl
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: Fencerider
» What about the bill Obama just introduced.... tell us how that is good...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: Mystery Solver
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Bill sucks but only Stops Civil Actions NOT Criminal Charges
Posted by: helenwheels
» You sound like Bush supporters even today. They still refuse to see...
Posted by: Prophit
» We see, oh confused one....
Posted by: greenPuker
» My fingerprints are no where on file, sir.... mr name caller....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: We see, oh confused one....
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Actually Obama Said
Posted by: desidid
» He has since backed off of that position......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: maxaron
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Give Me Liberty or give Me Death -
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Give Me Liberty or give Me Death -
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Give Me Liberty or give Me Death -
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Give Me Liberty or give Me Death -
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: SouthernWolf
» RE: mystery solver touched a hot wire here
Posted by: warble
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: sicntired
» RE: Obama defends new FISA wiretap bill as compromise
Posted by: EdNet
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Jun 21, 2008 1:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Forget the Constitution or judicial casuistries: we are in an epoch of Raw Power. The corruption, it seems, is Dead Center and Bi-Partisan. This is Tyranny. The Democrats waited for the right moment, when the real issues confronting the people mount daily and attention and energy towards resistance is least likely to be found to pass this infamous Surrender.
When one of these so-called 'leaders' demands of others to follow the Law, others may ask: why? for it was an 'exceptional' circumstance. What will MAKE them follow the Law? The Police. Welcome to the New World Order.
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» RE: Momentous
Posted by: riley
» RE: Momentous
Posted by: helenwheels
» Thank you, Talkville, except summary straight to the heart of ....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Momentous
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Momentous
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Pelosi has been taking orders from AIPAC....... And Wall STreet
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: tlees2 on Jun 21, 2008 3:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: "Off the table"
Posted by: billslm
» RE: "Off the table"
Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: "Off the table"
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: "Off the table"
Posted by: Lauren
» Do you have proof of that contract award??? Any link would be....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Do you have proof of that contract award??? Any link would be....
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jun 21, 2008 4:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am voting for Obama- Not my first choice, but the only one worth supporting & working to get in Office.
But I will be voting Against ALL others from my State MI- So third Party Candidates throw your hat in the ring. I'd like to hand Pres Obama a new clean Congres to work with.
Pelosi Reid Hoyer.... All should face charges of High Crimes along with this Administration, they are not just enablers- they are Co Conspirators and Accomplices.
My hope is that Sen Obama offers the VP to Sen Hagel (R), He has a Track record which would compliment Sen Obama's and would aid US i Bring out the patriotic vote- Proving our country is more interested in regaining Our control over Gov't and not Party Politics- Patriots Are Color Blind.
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» Don't forget how Hagel got elected . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: Don't forget how Hagel got elected . . .
Posted by: anna132
» actually Hagels company in Nebraska supplied the machines that....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Don't forget how Hagel got elected . . .
Posted by: Lauren
» Actually, I agree with this recommendation wholeheartedly......
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: billslm on Jun 21, 2008 5:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I called my congress woman in the House this morning to urge her to vote no on the warrantless wiretapping issue. I was assured she already had done so--- even though the bill passed easily. She, at least, is one who maintained the faith. But she is leaving congress. The bad apples will not allow the good ones to remain honorable.
So the good are being driven out by the bad. And that is the real problem. Those who have sold out have finally driven out the Democrats who really are trying to accomplish something.
Recall Pelosi! Hoyer! Reid! They stand against real Americans.
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» RE: Democrats Are Shameless Sellouts
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: jeffreytaos on Jun 21, 2008 5:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Imagine a compromise on marijuana laws, that allowed anyone to possess and grow just a little bit from a little seed for a little compassion and a little kindness to themselves.
Imagine the compromise went something like this: If you kill, maim or wound another human being in the act of growing, buying, or importing marijuana, you shall be sentenced to jail in line with laws dictating such bad behavior, but if you have harmed no person, animal, or other being in your actions, then you shall be free to remain free.
Imagine, a marijuana compromise.
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» Hey, toker...you are OFFPOINT!
Posted by: greenPuker
» Makes perefect sense to me!!! It is the Law!
Posted by: garry minor
» RE: Hey, toker...you are OFFPOINT! NOT
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Nightgauntlet...
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Hey greenPuker, ...you are the one who is OFF putting!
Posted by: Lauren
» Goodness,,,lauren! Guilt upped and grabbed you!
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Goodness,,,lauren! Guilt upped and grabbed you!
Posted by: robert.noll
» RE: Now, if we could just compromise on Marijuana!
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rgoalierob on Jun 21, 2008 6:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The First Item For The New Congress; Vote Pelosi Out!
Posted by: Phred42
» RE: The First Item For The New Congress; Vote Pelosi Out!
Posted by: anna132
» Pelosi's a scare old geriatric; Afraid to initiate power of truth in the face of denial.
Posted by: common intelligence
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Phred42 on Jun 21, 2008 6:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then must follow through on their removal.
Pelosi and Reid are either:
- Involved in the illegal and corrupt activity
- are being Blackmailed
- or are Cowards.
Any way you slice it - they are not capable of completing their Sworn duties
They MUST be removed Immediately.
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» They Are anti-Constitutional Globalists
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Barack - IT's time to show Leadership and make the hard decisions
Posted by: Mystery Solver
» RE: Barack - IT's time to show Leadership and make the hard decisions
Posted by: helenwheels
» RE: Barack - IT's time to show Leadership and make the hard decisions
Posted by: greenPuker
» You don't get it...... Obama is one of them.... where do you think he came from?
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: FBI DNA data base started in 1999 & AFPIS data base.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: You don't get it...... Obama is one of them!!
Posted by: greenPuker
» Dream on, Sunshine
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: One Thing We Know About Barack Is
Posted by: desidid
» Brass ba__s for sure
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Brass ba__s for sure
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: covalentbonded on Jun 21, 2008 6:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Strike/Boycott 08
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» RE: or just expendable
Posted by: Lauren
» Strike! 09/11/ 08!
Posted by: rancespergl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JSquercia on Jun 21, 2008 7:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is Sad to think that we don't have ENOUGH Senators who would DEFEND the Constitution that we are Unable to threaten a fillibuster, a tactic that the Republicans have used constantly this session
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» RE: Parents
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Last Chance on Jun 21, 2008 7:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» We would be arrested for spying on the terrorists who did 9-11.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: In the Bill itself
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stonesoupstation on Jun 21, 2008 7:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: The Populist on Jun 21, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
on his ability to follow through on his promises.
Now I feel used, played, stood up, cynical (more
than usual), and ambivalent.
Nader where are you!!!
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» Obama has begun and will Sell out. Watch the unfolding!
Posted by: common intelligence
» Well, thats one way to globalize........ LOL
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: eformation
Posted by: liberalibrarian
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jun 21, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(That was before I read that he MAY try to strip the immunity provision in the Senate. But since that basically has zero chance of succeeding, and he should know that, then I am not putting the sign back up.)
(THAT will show him....)
Jesus Bleeping Christ! Why are Democrats the biggest pussies on the planet!? And what the Republicans say about them IS true. They ARE traitors! (But the Republicans are traitors to even more of an extent. And that is saying a LOT.)
WE are literally doomed.
You know, what makes it even worse is that our children are brainwashed in school to believe that America is "free", even to believe that America is the freest of all nations. BIGGEST LOAD OF BS EVER!
What do we tell our kids now, after they get home from a school day of learning about our Founding Fathers and about pledging allegiance to the American flag and all that tripe?
I am so sick of all this crap.
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» For God's sakes, whatever you do, you tell your children the TRUTH....
Posted by: Prophit
» Oh sweet Jeesus! The whole system, both parties are infiltrated.
Posted by: greenPuker
» Don't like it? DON'T BREED IN CAPTIVITY
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jayjanson on Jun 21, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The children of Afghanis, Somalis and Iraqis are dying in daily U.S. air stikes now authorized and abetted by a fascist mother.
These beautiful children are the children of our Iraqi, Afghani and Somali brothers and sisters and their deaths distort the appearance of sister Pelosi's three children and their social education
painfully,
jay janson
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» RE: Fascist Mom Pelosi Condemns Iraqi, Afghani, Somali children to death
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Fascist Mom Pelosi Condemns Iraqi, Afghani, Somali children to death
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: diliff on Jun 21, 2008 7:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Nope buckeye. Not right!
Posted by: greenPuker
» RE: Nope buckeye. Not right!
Posted by: diliff
» RE: buckeye
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jun 21, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But in any case, we'll NEVER find out the true extent of the spying now, will we?
America is NOT free.
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» RE: Oh, Barack, you should remember this
Posted by: anna132
» RE: Oh, Barack, you should remember this
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Oh, Barack, you should remember this...see anna!
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: donl51 on Jun 21, 2008 8:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: And we misguided fools
Posted by: Lauren
» Arrest you? Gosh no, Lauren not when you're protected!
Posted by: greenPuker
» misguided fool
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: And we misguided fools (what's this we crappola)
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sojourner on Jun 21, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, I do not have any insider knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors. All I know is that is what Congressional leadership does.
And I also know that our simple-minded press corps is too lazy to ever do the work it would take to find out. "Don't believe anything you read," and only half of what you hear.
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» Always appreciate your informative posts.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: I guess no one else knows what they got for the trade.
Posted by: Lauren
» "Same as it ever was." --Talking Heads
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oldurn on Jun 21, 2008 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama on the FISA 'Compromise' ...
"Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people. There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders.
"That is why last year I opposed the so-called Protect America Act, which expanded the surveillance powers of the government without sufficient independent oversight to protect the privacy and civil liberties of innocent Americans. I have also opposed the granting of retroactive immunity to those who were allegedly complicit in acts of illegal spying in the past.
"After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's Protect America Act.
"Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act.
"It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people."
From "Talking Points Memo"
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» All the more reason to never listen to what Obama says
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: All the more reason to never listen to what Obama says
Posted by: lenioui
» Why should he have to intervene at all if it is well structured?
Posted by: PaulC
» Why should he have to intervene?
Posted by: zipper696
» Informationguru remix.
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: common intelligence on Jun 21, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe in another sense, that these street people that are voted into office have much more than a 6th grade understanding of anything.
Hense Politicians. That's Poll Practicianiers.
They're like poker players that just play the odds in what it will take to keep their jobs.
They have no understanding of the impact and consequences of their decissions. Bush, just the other day, said he wanted to be remembered
as the president that , "when he looked in the mirror, saw a man of his convictions that would not compromise his principles." .
He has said before that he idolized Harry S. Truman for this very ideology.
This is the mind set of an unconscious compulsive, self centered sociopath.
How in hell is he still in office getting his way? This is beyond my comprehension?
It is purely evident the answer to the my question is the American people and those that represent the "will" of the people are unconscious too and are the most gutless people on earth.
The original blind bravery that drives young people to join the military to do something "right" has more merit than that of the politicians especially the likes of Pelosi. These are the two faces scum that undermine the very foundation of democracy, the The Constitution.
I mean, what the hell do the media and Bush Repuks mean that "they" want to establish Democracy around the world yet actually is destroying it here in our our country?
Can't people see it?
Perspectively, I know of "illegal" latinos, Mexicans, Guatamalians, Salvadorians, even Aussies, Euro's and Americans themselves changing their plans to stay in America. There by going back to their home countries because there is greater chance for a better life there than here, now.
"Bet you didn't know gas in Mexico is $2.00 a gallon".
And as I have been told by these people $5000 will get you thu 6 months of living comfortably and less stress than $50,000 here with no hope of owning your own home!
There are the same Home Depots and Target stores and Walmarts there as there is here. So what keeps Americans here? Attachment to failed infrastuctures, broken levies, broken dreams, repossesed homes? Industrial dependance on China and lack of educational opportunities.......Just what is it that Americans are doing by allowing ther own homeland being taken over by a fascist regime? Without a fight no less? Any country in the world , the people would not put up with the lies this country is living under.
It appears there are more reasons to put up barriers to keeping people from getting out of the United states than keeping foreigners from getting in.
I saw on a box of Safeway (generic brand) cereal the full back panel with "the American Presidents & Their Times". It displayed the names and a one line note on their accomplishments.
GWB was listed as saying (only) that he Established Homeland security".
A man around his mid thirties is portrayed in a news focus on network TV, interview about him and his wifes' lose of property , Twice, from flooding and levy breakage. He obviuously is shown with a T-shirt that says, "Proud to Be An American" .
NOW what the hell is that suppose to mean?
So where is our Homeland Security? Do you think they really mean Corporate securtiy?
(Sorry I get carried away)
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» RE: Who are the Demo's that voted FOR it?
Posted by: Lauren
» A list of Domestic enemies, Traitors to the United States of America Part 1
Posted by: common intelligence
» Domestic Enemies Part 2
Posted by: common intelligence
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ozonehole on Jun 21, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to know how your representative voted, you can see the results here:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2008-437
I'm not a single-issue voter, but this bill was a litmus test for me. Any Democrat who voted for its passage is basically a Republican pretending to be a Democrat.
Obama has failed us. I had planned to vote for him this November, but now I just can't bring myself to do it. He said that he didn't approve of the telecom immunity, but in the end he voiced support for the bill. The Senate hasn't voted on the bill yet, but it's almost certain to pass with full telecom immunity. It will be interesting to see how Obama votes (if he votes - he doesn't spend much time in Washington these days).
Disgusted as I am with Obama, I can't support McCain either - he's worse by far.
So I think I'll vote Libertarian. It is not with much enthusiasm. Nobody needs to tell me about how the Libertarians have a lousy record on environmental protection, they lack a coherent energy policy, they love deregulation, etc - I know all that. They're basically Ron Paul Republicans, with all the good and bad that entails.
The Libertarians have a very good record (to the extent they have any record at all) on civil liberties, and this foul FISA legislation is definitely a civil liberties issue.
I'm suspicious of their candidate Bob Barr - a good Republican who suddenly decided two years ago that he'd become a Libertarian. But who else am I going to vote for - a write-in vote for Ralph Nader? Most states just toss write-in votes into the trash can, uncounted. The Green Party appears to be in chaos, and are unlikely to challenge Obama.
I'm not expecting the Libertarians to win, but a good showing (over 5%) would at least be a nice protest vote. Maybe it would get the Democrats' attention and make them try harder - I can always hope. If anyone's got a better suggestion than voting Libertarian, I'd love to hear it.
Let's face it - we're living in a police state now. The Rethugs brought us here, but the spineless Democrats just bent over and spread. Disgusting. I'll see how it goes this November, but in the end I might just vote with my feet - emigration never sounded so good.
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» Vote for Cynthia McKinney......
Posted by: Prophit
» I'm A Green Libertarian
Posted by: left_libertarian
» McKinney/Barr
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Voting Libertarian
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Voting left-Libertarian? Why?
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Screw voting, Start Shooting !
Posted by: common intelligence
» RE: Screw voting, Start Shooting !
Posted by: sicntired
» RE: Voting Libertarian
Posted by: greenPuker
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jun 21, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This Gov't is not only the enemy of the People,it's the enemy of the world and it will be our children who pay the toll. Long after the real criminals get away. We must take control of our own gov't before we get nailed by another country we've screwed over. The whole mid-east situation is the way it is because we've been playing both ends against the middle for generations. We deal with Arabs because they use cash money for their deals,the Isrealis we give credit to. They were never supposed to have nukes,but they damn sure do and they are'nt afraid to use them.Most of the folks that are in Gov't use force of arms to insure Peace. There was never a Peace attained back of Force. Anytime you start killing for Peace you'll never get it because use of force only breeds contempt for the country using force. There will always be someone's relative who got killed that will want revenge,so there is never a true Peace from force of arms. Just a kind of uneasy waiting game. The Arab world may not have liked Hussain very much but they really detest killing eachother. It violates the Koran.
But over here we call ourselves 'christians'. If you look at our history since 1492 you'll rightly see the greatest genocide was done by 'christians'. The very thing we're supposed to not do.Too
many people have been slaughtered in the name of Christ. So much so we might as well call ourselves the Nation of the Anti-Christ. It's
these very fools that call themselves 'democrats' that are the next worst problem for America. They are loyal to their biggest monetary supporters,not the People.
Their supporters want war. It makes them money.
They don't care with whom as long as multi-million dollar cruise missles get used.
The remedy...STOP HAVING YOUR KIDS SIGN UP FOR THE DRAFT. Discourage military service of any kind,in the most strongest possible terms.
Stop believing the two party system really represents us. They do not and never have.
Boycott the election!!! Find out who's in the electoral college and block their driveways so they can't vote in another killing force president. Make election day the day millions of people go to DC and piss on the washington monument,that's the only vote they're good enough for. Save the lives of your friends and family by removing the gov't from power. We have the right to do it but do we have the will? I think we do,so do millions of others.
Jeffrey7 for Prez '08
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» RE: This is why they can't be trusted
Posted by: Lauren
» Been there,Tried that......
Posted by: jeffrey7
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wildbill on Jun 21, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: They didn't 'cave in' they did their business, just not ours.
Posted by: Lauren
» Vote for the Slightly-less-evil Party!
Posted by: leafsong1
» If Obama doesn't need public money, he doesn't need mine.
Posted by: Sojourner
Comments are closed-
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jun 21, 2008 10:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just gave fifty dollars USD. And it feels great.
If she get enough money, she may be able to get Pelosi dismissed from Congress.
She is a little bit of a goof ball, but her heart is in the right place.
Remember she lost a son in the Iraq war, she knows what this war costs first hand. She is not a phony like Pelosi and Obama.
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» RE: Give money to the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign.
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Give money to the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign.
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Give money to the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign.
Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: Give money to the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign.
Posted by: Doubtom
» Why isn't she running Green?
Posted by: antiapathy
» RE: Why isn't she running Green?
Posted by: Doubtom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jun 21, 2008 11:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ozonehole on Jun 21, 2008 11:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guess what? Just checked back. My post is gone, along with all the other posts mentioning FISA. The Obama blog moderators have apparently been very busy.
I must give Alternet praise for allowing this discussion. There was also some good comments posted yesterday at Huffingtonpost. The official Democratic Party blogs don't want to hear it - just pretend the vote didn't happen. Ditto for the Republicans - they are even more guilty. Haven't heard a peep out of Fox News and AM hate radio either.
Compare that to just a few months ago when the last (unsuccessful) attempt was made to get this odious legislation passed - the MSM gave telecom immunity lots of airtime (mostly to Republicans). The neocons were fiercely denouncing the Democrats for "caving in to terrorists", while the Democrats were just as fiercely insisting that they couldn't compromise on the 4th amendment.
Now the issue has disappeared. Most people don't even know the vote happened. The Senate needs to vote on it again next week - anyone want to bet that it will be less publicized than National Cucumber Week?
Now let's discuss American flag lapel pins. And "hope and change."
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» RE: Obama's blog page - don't mention FISA
Posted by: reelectnoone
» RE: Obama's blog page - don't mention FISA
Posted by: sicntired
» My post is gone, along with all the other posts mentioning FISA.
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reelectnoone on Jun 21, 2008 12:04 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We will try to spread that idea as far and wide as possible to put telcom on notice that their paying customers want to know where they stand with regards to being law abiding citizens vs. criminals we can't trust with our communications.
I will be curios to see their response and will post here later. First I will write and post my letter to AT&T for all to read, pass on and hopefully mail to AT&T, Verison, Sprint and so on.
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» My Verizon account changed the terms within days of the proposal to hold them accountable.
Posted by: Sojourner
» EVERYONE that has a Verizon account
Posted by: Persephone8
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Reader11722 on Jun 21, 2008 12:11 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great nation.
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Posted by: JayHaden on Jun 21, 2008 12:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Nightstallion on Jun 21, 2008 12:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead she has consecutively and blatantly supported bush his war and the Corporatocracy which will reap the profits from any war scenarios. This is why I started calling this Party THE DEMONRATS to begin with! These people are opportunistic, serve themselves and war profiteering, and will invade your privacy looking for those AMERICANS who dislike or disagree with them.
Now is not the time to be in denial, now is the time to oust all these encysted worms. They have betrayed the people who voted for them at every turn. Now they have set up a Geheime Staats Polizei (Secret State Police) in the form of Homeland Security, Eschelon (wire tapping service) and the Jackbooted Blackwater as the Strike force/S.W.A.T strong arm goons.
When is it ok to hate? I cannot love these guys. I am opposed to bullies and have always hated them. How did I get here from Nancy Pelosi? She has voted to invite this kind of stinking crap to stay around awhile till it has to be used on us to shut up our bitching. To many of us that’s cool because we don’t want to think about it, we want to have our every want and need attended till death us part the earth.
Some of us, Republicans included will even shout Heil and Viva as the Gestapo is loading up our children in buses or dump trucks headed for the Ovens. This must be what we want. Otherwise we would be chasing politicians around with hot tar, ropes, goose down pillows and #2 railroad rails till we could get them to stop this shit.
Did I hear someone say what shit? I mean George Bush and his goddamned War on humanity’s rights to life without interference from some dickhead politician. That’s who Nancy Pelosi, McCain, Obama, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rove, Chertoff and all the other warmongers will support till the cows come home. The only good politician is a Tarred and Feathered Politician!
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Posted by: jvaljon1 on Jun 21, 2008 12:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First thing this woman said, when we (I was a Democrat in 2006) HANDED HER CONTROL OF THE HOUSE, was: "Impeachment (of Bush/Cheney) is OFF THE TABLE." That was Betrayal Number One; and upon hearing Lady Nancy proclaim thusly, I took myself down to my city hall, whereupon I registered as an Independent.
Now I see that she's actually gonna forgive Bush his war crimes? OMG! To what end? Or--wait! Can it BE? No, say it isn't so!
Could La Nancy have had an...ummmm...liaison of sorts (a la Condi Rice) with Duh Prez?!!!
This isn't treatment from a Speaker of the House, as much as it is, from a Lover!!!
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Posted by: chlamor on Jun 21, 2008 1:42 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even many whose views are developed enough to recognize such truths as the fundamental rottenness of the 2-party system & the complicity of Democrats in all of the Republicans' major crimes, are still unable to draw the logical consequences of these insights. (Those so naive that they still conceive of Democrats as being the "opponents" of Republicans are another case altogether.)
The central point is this: capitalist society permits the Democrats to be one of the 2 allowed parties for a very definite reason. It's not because the Democrats "serve the people." It's because in a subtle but effective way, they help the capitalists keep the populace under control by providing them with the illusion of possible change. TPTB don't want the people "served." They want them managed, or controlled.
It is the job, the central social function of the Democrats to always be dangling before the people's noses vague pseudo-hints of possible change, so as to keep them from bolting from bourgeois politics altogether. It is the Democrats' intention to never deliver meaningful change, but rather to keep dangling hints of it alluringly forever. This produces control -- a populace habituated to remain safely within the lines required by ruling class interests.
This is why the Democrats NEVER paint a picture of US history that's the slightest bit accurate -- they want a brainwashed population every bit as much as the Republicans do. This is why they NEVER are willing to set forth an honest socioeconomic analysis of why things are as they are -- they much prefer that people not understand such things.
As long as a large chunk of voters can be deceived by the seemingly "nicer guy" act of the Democrats, there is no hope whatever of coming to grips with the core problems of our society. The most dangerous trends -- a wasteful consumer society, environmental destruction, grotesque social inequality, and an uncontrollable propaganda/war machine -- cannot even be approached within the framework of bourgeois politics, because they all serve ruling class interests. This is what is really being protected, when people opt to support Democrats just because they seem less blatantly cruel on TV.
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Posted by: chlamor on Jun 21, 2008 1:47 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's just a fallacy to believe that the Democrats can somehow be transformed into a political force defending the interests of the broader public. That's not what they are. That they dare posture as the "party of the people" is an insult to our collective intelligence. In reality, they use this tattered & tired popular image to collude with the rightwing, confuse the public, & sell us out at every turn.
The following are intended to sharpen the Dems' message, defining what they stand for and how they’re different from Republicans.
1. "We Surrender."
2. "Please don't yell at us, we're frightened."
3. "Would you like us to roll over on our backs now, or do you prefer that we remain on our knees?"
4. "Let's bomb Iran."
5. "We stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the President."
6. "We stand for rule by a kinder, gentler military-industrial complex."
7. "What's good for MobilExxon, Citicorp, and Northrop-Grumman is good for America."
8. "If you like venal cowards and betrayal, vote for us!"
9. "Please don't ask us to stand up to the Republicans. They get very angry if anyone opposes them -- and it's really scary!!"
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» RE: The Democrats are just a faction of the enemy
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: The Democrats are just a faction of the enemy
Posted by: chlamor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dayahka on Jun 21, 2008 4:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: westomoon on Jun 21, 2008 4:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am furious at my own Rep, who voted "aye", and at Pelosi and Hoyer, and that blithering fool Jane Harman (again). But I am not so silly as to be furious at "the Democrats". The fact remains that 128 Dems (and one brave R) voted against this travesty, including most of the grand old names -- Conyers, Dingell, Frank, Inslee, Kaptur, George Miller, Mollohan, Obey, Pastor, Rangell, Sarbanes, Tsongas, Waxman, and Wexler.
We are not as stupid as the neocons and the Blue Dogs tell us we are. This vote is reason to get rid of a lot of incumbents, including the inexpressibly vile House leadership who engineered this crime, but not the D party -- yet. In my State, the primaries for Congress are still in the future, and my Congressman has a Dem challenger -- who just acquired at least one new donor/volunteer last night.
Most of all... this is just the House, people! This vote is reason to start leaning on our Senators, including Obama, as hard as we can. Even if the Senate simply passes a different version, much can be accomplished in conference committee -- as Tom DeLay's crowd taught us so well. This site gives you contact info for everyone, including Harry Reid.
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» RE: A majority of Dems voted against it, How could you leave out....
Posted by: Turiye
» There are 129 names to be praised
Posted by: westomoon
» RE: There are 129 names to be praised
Posted by: desidid
» desidid
Posted by: westomoon
» RE:westomoon
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cdcmtotr on Jun 21, 2008 4:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Mourning
Posted by: honestlyoutraged
» RE: Mourning
Posted by: Dianka
Comments are closed-
Posted by: douglashoyt on Jun 21, 2008 5:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The voting machines are literally programed to produce favorable results for the two ruling elite parties.
Remember the corruption of the voting machines, and the promises to correct them?
Nothing has changed. The voting system is still a corrupt mess.
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» RE: Do you know why the Democrats don't respond to the will of the people?
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Turiye on Jun 21, 2008 5:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And insofar as the Senate is concerned it's on their legislative calender #816, could be 819, and no date is given for when this will be heard, so she's wrong again.
Go to thomas.gov, for the Vote Call the number is:Roll Call 437.
Always use the fed sites if you want the correct text. Or just watch it on Cspan, as for McClellan you only had to go to the Senate Daily schedule and you could have live streamed his entire testimony.
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» So write to your Senator today, and tomorrow, and every day till they vote
Posted by: westomoon
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Posted by: Dianka on Jun 21, 2008 7:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jun 21, 2008 8:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
http://www.Fireme.To/udi
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Posted by: Kimberlrae on Jun 21, 2008 9:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The capitulation on immunity for Telcoms is a HUGE disappointment, but I'm wondering, now that Bush is headed for Crawford in 6 months, what this means for the next prez, if he's Obama. Can he overturn the bill then?
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» Overturning /repealing FISA , PATRIOT Act ...
Posted by: Persephone8
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Posted by: jporter on Jun 22, 2008 12:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Do a Write in Vote for RON PAUL
Posted by: Persephone8
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Posted by: davy on Jun 22, 2008 12:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Keystone on Jun 22, 2008 1:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jun 22, 2008 6:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Think your ISP is spying on you?
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Posted by: ikonoklast on Jun 22, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The key is to stop voting for Republicans or Democrats. Don't cast a single vote to put a Dem or Rep in office. Only vote for Independents and 3rd party candidates. That's the only way to take our country back from the two-faced political machine.
This is going to be an incredibly difficult strategy to pursue, but I believe it is the only way to bring peace, justice, equality, and security to America. The political machines are so entrenched in our collective culture that even with concerted effort this is going to take years--possibly even lifetimes. However, I am convinced this is the only sane and effective way to shift political power to the people.
The key, as with all grass-root efforts, is to start small and local, and allow momentum to build and propel the movement. Start on a local level, and tell your friends, to turn your back on the majority parties. Cut them off--completely.
This is a scary task to contemplate: what if taking support away from Democrats at this critical time allows the Republicans to continue to run roughshod over the country? Well, look around--the Dems won in 2006 and what the fuck have they done for us lately?
If your worried about this year's elections--well, so am I. I still believe Obama is going to be a damn sight better than McCain, and Barack is getting my vote in November--but after that the Democrats are cut off. They will not receive another vote from me until they start doing their jobs, and based on past experience I don't find that likely.
I'll continue to support progressive Independent and 3rd-party candidates and encourage others to do so. I'll be doing my part to break the 2-party stranglehold, and I hope you will too.
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» RE: It's time to break the political parties!
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
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Posted by: Persephone8 on Jun 22, 2008 9:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4df1soW7Dho&NR=1
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Posted by: PaulC on Jun 22, 2008 10:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What I am doing is shifting any money they would have gotten over to the enviro groups that I favor. This way I have the best of both worlds - I punish the Dems and I help my favorite causes.
And best of all, this narrow targeting of my funds puts ME back in control of how my contributions, anyway, are being spent.
peace,
Paul
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Posted by: rtmyth on Jun 22, 2008 2:16 PM
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Posted by: frantaylor on Jun 22, 2008 2:41 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Except this administration has made fast-and-loose the rule rather than the exception. The Democrats don't want to crack down because that ruins it for everyone. The Republicans know this and are pushing things way too far. This is the beginning of the end because now everyone knows that the rules are "off the table" and anarchy sets in. Look out.
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jun 22, 2008 3:34 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can anyone who has listened to political campaign after campaign and taken what was espoused and promised at face value believe that the people we elect control our country?
The military industrial complex corporations who staged a silent coup in the early 1950s, and their corporate latter-day clones put these clowns up for election, then dictate to them what they will do.
How in the H--- else do you explain U.S. history - including perpetuation to the total exclusion of everything else of an obsolute energy system like that dependent upon oil - since then? How do you explain a presidencey now risen to that of outright despotism (the current one has publicly repudiated his oath of office, for heaven's sake!)? How else do you explain a military grown to the mind-boggling size and costs of this one (while you're at it, explain an agency, the CIA, made able since its inception to spend as much as it chooses without accounting).
How else do you explain an Operation MOCKINGBIRD, a program designed to co-opt and control the new media and the nation's mind (explain, too, how a nation's public could otherwise have become to blind and sheep-like as this one).
Come on, people - wake up!
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Posted by: chlamor on Jun 22, 2008 5:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anytime you see anything I post consider it yours.
I doubt seriously there are many publishers interested in the stuff I might write. BTW I self-produce booklets and distribute locally.
I will post a link to a few here:
Booklet# 4
Booklet #3
If you're interested in the other two booklets head to the links and send me a PM and I'll mail them to you.
I have two more on the way. But I consider none of the ideas to be original nor to be held in ownership. We are in dire need of political movements and need to actively work towards resisting the hegemony of the political parties.
Solidarity.
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Posted by: JohnHKennedy Denver CO on Jun 23, 2008 8:20 AM
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A PROPOSAL... Suppose some person or group organize a
National BOYCOTT OF ALL CONGRESSMEN IN THE ELECTION?
Urge Voters to vote for the Presidential Candidate of their choice,
BUT ASK VOTERS TO NOT VOTE FOR
ANY Democratic or Republican CONGRESSMAN
FOR ANY FEDERAL OFFICE
(either House or Senate)
You’ll get the President You Want
But the BOYCOTT of Congressmen might Upset
the Vote Totals enough
To Send A Message To ALL Congressmen to
TAKE THEIR OATH OF OFFICE SERIOUSLY
and to
To Protect Our Constitution,
AND TO IMPEACH When It Is Obvious To ALL that Crimes have been committed By The Executive Branch.
They have ignored everything we have said or done to get them to obey the Constitution and at least hold impeachment hearings. WHY NOT TRY THIS?
A National Vote Boycott of All Congressmen
from both parties in November.
They might get the message in time to save themselves before the 2010 election.
..
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Posted by: liberalibrarian on Jun 23, 2008 9:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I will continue to support the Democrats i.e Obama unless and until he is in office and sells out.
Stay home and put your heads in the sand if you like--I'm going to stay engaged with the Democratic party...the least reprehensible if you want to call it that.
Nobody's perfect--but I think he will do his best to change the course America has taken over the last 8 years. What is all this let's not support any of them BS on Alternet all the time these days--do you really think your voting for marginal progressives here and there is really going to help?
How naive you are.
The process takes time. Getting the Democratic party in and getting the Repugs out is the first step--maybe in 2012 or soon thereafter the country will consist of Democrats who are central/liberal and Green/Progressives who can drive their agenda...but first things first--let's get the neocons out of business.
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» RE: So what are you going to do?
Posted by: ikonoklast
» We are doing negative campaigning against Dems who hate our Consitution
Posted by: JohnHKennedy Denver CO
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Posted by: hvannes on Jun 23, 2008 7:22 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hvannes on Jun 23, 2008 7:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mnstra on Jun 24, 2008 8:23 PM
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Posted by: EdNet on Jun 27, 2008 7:46 AM
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From "national security" to FISA to taking on a really lame-duck president. From fighting corporate food producers, corporate pharmaceuticals, corporate media to fighting for citizens' civil and constitutional rights, too many Democrats have shown weakness.
But now, because of the Supreme Court ruling on handguns, all that can change. Change we can believe in!
Senator Obama, the leader of the "new and changed" Democratic Party, boasting his street creds, recently said that if they (Republicans) bring a knife to the fight, we will bring a gun!
Well now is your chance, Senator. You talked the talk, now walk the walk.
OK. We know it was a metaphor. But it does provide an opportunity to lead Democrats to change.
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