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Rights and Liberties

Vermont Secessionists Meet with Racist League of the South

By Heidi Beirich, Intelligence Report. Posted June 5, 2008.


The Second Vermont Republic is seeking to build a separatist movement. But many have been shocked by its ties to racist Southern secessionists.
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From 1777 until 1791, Vermont was an independent state complete with all the trappings -- a constitution, a flag, even a mint to pump out its own money, the Vermont copper. But in 1791, Vermonters happily joined the new United States. Now, some of the locals want out.

In 2003, the Second Vermont Republic (SVR) sprang up to push for the independence of Vermont, a tiny, idyllic Northeastern state with fewer than 630,000 residents. In its seemingly quixotic quest, SVR took up the mantra that small is beautiful, arguing that secession would lead to sustainability, ecological balance, an end to military entanglements overseas, and a better life. SVR activists designed a new green flag for Vermont and started selling T-shirts, particularly popular with the state's many tourists, that read, "U.S. OUT OF VT!"

But in recent months and years, SVR's actions have gone from way out to worrying. Starting in 2005, SVR leader Thomas H. Naylor -- along with SVR's very close ally, the Cold Spring, N.Y.-based Middlebury Institute that is headed by longtime leftist Kirkpatrick Sale -- began openly collaborating with a collection of Southern extremists to build a national secession movement.

SVR's disturbing new partner is the white supremacist League of the South. The Alabama-based group is against interracial marriage, believes the old Confederacy never surrendered, and wants to reestablish "the cultural dominance of the Anglo-Celtic people and their institutions" in a newly seceded South. It seeks to accord different classes of people differing legal rights in what sounds very much like a medieval theocracy of lords, serfs and clerics. League intellectuals have defended both slavery (which was "God-ordained") and segregation, a policy described as protecting the genetic "integrity" of both blacks and whites. Right after Hurricane Katrina, league members put up "whites only" housing offers, including one from Alabama offering a trailer to a "white family of three or four," and another from Tennessee offering to temporarily house a "White Christian family."

Many Vermonters have been shocked by this alliance. After all, the Green Mountain State was the first to abolish slavery in 1777, and its men fought fiercely to preserve the union in battles during the Civil War, some of which are proudly commemorated in paintings displayed inside the gold-domed State House. But Naylor isn't worried about his fellow Vermonters' concerns, hotly defending as critical his newfound alliance with members of the radical right.

"For the last 30 years, people have been speculating on the idea of far left meets far right, and I saw the possibility for that not to be fantasy but to be real," Naylor told the Intelligence Report. "The objective is to bring down the Empire." The League of the South, Naylor added, though "not perfect," is "not racist."

Birthing a movement

Talk of secession has been heating up in Vermont since the early 1990s and even before. In 1991, then-Lt. Gov. Howard Dean moderated debates in seven towns that then voted for secession. That same year, University of Vermont professor and current SVR advisor Frank Bryan argued for secession in a series of well-publicized debates with Vermont Supreme Court Justice John Dooley. With the election of George Bush and the onset of the increasingly unpopular Iraq war, secessionist sentiment in traditionally liberal Vermont picked up, with a 2006 University of Vermont poll showing 8% of residents interested in the idea.

It was Naylor who turned that sentiment into a movement, founding SVR after self-publishing The Vermont Manifesto in 2003. Naylor was spurred to create SVR by the 9/11 terrorist attacks, which he does not believe were organized by Osama bin Laden, a "fundamentalist living in a remote cave," but rather were the ultimate result of American arrogance. In his manifesto's preface, Naylor writes: "Our nation has truly lost its way. America is no longer a sustainable nation-state economically, politically, socially, militarily or environmentally. The Empire has no clothes." A perennial curmudgeon, Naylor regularly berates government officials. He calls Vermont's elected officials "enemies of the state" and has labeled six-term Vermont Sen. Patrick Leahy, a Democrat, "a world-class prostitute."

To most Vermonters, SVR was originally seen as a far-out outfit that engaged in publicity stunts to push secession. At least in the beginning, its most enthusiastic supporters seemed to be the Glover, Vt.-based Bread and Puppet Theater troupe, a merry band dedicated to "cheap art" whose building hosted SVR's first statewide meeting in October 2003. One SVR attention-grabber was a "memorial service" held on March 4, 2005, commemorating the day in 1791 that Vermont joined the union. The service included everything from a reading from Ecclesiastes to the strains of Chopin's "Funeral March." A funeral procession with a New Orleans-style jazz band carried a flag-draped coffin containing the "deceased First Vermont Republic" to the State House in Montpelier, where it was placed at the feet of Vermont Revolutionary War hero Ethan Allen's statue. SVR even achieved a symbolic political success, persuading the legislature to designate Jan. 16 as Vermont Independence Day to commemorate the establishment of the First Vermont Republic in 1777.


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Secession-yet again( has nobody learned anything since Apppomattox in 1865?)
Posted by: Woodpecker on Jun 5, 2008 3:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although Lincoln had his flaws( as recently as 1857 he told Stephen Douglas that he was"not in f avour of racial equality and inasmuch as one race must be dominant over the other, I favour thw white race"), he came to realise that "America cannot exist half slave and half free", and thus has earned his place in history as one of America's greatest presidents for not just saving the Union but freeing the slave. you'd think that 143 years after Lee surrendered to Grant, some folks would have got it! Clint Eastwood once joked that once you go far enough to the right you get the same folks coming at you from the left. If secession made no sense in 1865, then in 2009 it makes even less!

Terry

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» Protection from what? Posted by: wolfgangmo75
Vermont Commons and the SPLC
Posted by: FreeVermont on Jun 5, 2008 4:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Readers interested in another "take" on both this SPLC essay and Vermont independence can find my in-depth conversation with the SPLC's Heidi Beirich online at www.vtcommons.org. Upper right hand corner of the home page.

As always, there is much more going on than meets the eye. Discriminating readers must judge for themselves re: the context for and veracity of the SPLC's claims here.

Look for indignant responses and ad hominem attacks from certain members of the left-leaning Vermont blogosphere here very soon.

And feel free to e-mail us at Vermont Commons for more conversation about this article at webeditor@vtcommons.org.

Free Vermont.

Long live the UNtied States.

Dr. Rob Williams
Vermont Commons editor

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» RE: Rob Williams is full of it Posted by: lordradish
So what's really going on in Vermont?
Posted by: hagwind on Jun 5, 2008 4:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bummer. The headline in the digest made me think, "Wow! The working, long-time residents of Vermont are finally rising up against the liberal affluenza who have overrun and occupied most of the state! How have they done it? Can we do it here?" But no, this secessionist movement is run by segments of the liberal (and leftist) occupying forces. Oh, well . . .

I sure didn't learn much about Vermont from this article. That's pretty typical of the press: they think that to be newsworthy you have to come from somewhere else. Yawn. I should have known what was coming when I saw "idyllic" in the first paragraph. Maybe in future you could devote more attention to the larger issue of what happens to places like Vermont when they catch the eye of restless liberals with money, the eco-tourists and eco-second-home-owners and organic back-to-the-landers et al., who sigh "It's so idyllic here!" and almost immediately set about making it less than idyllic for those who were there first. It's sort of the American story, isn't it? And we still don't understand why the natives aren't more grateful.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Better yet, get the south to secede again
Posted by: rugger on Jun 5, 2008 4:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This time we won't try to stop you, we promise.

Have fun, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

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The Most Troubling Signal
Posted by: desidid on Jun 5, 2008 5:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is the collaboration between far right and far left. That these two sides see little difference in their policies should be the most troubling portion of this alliance. As many posters here at AlterNet have said time and again there are some startling similarities between the two.

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» RE: The Most Troubling Signal Posted by: dikjosef
» There's nothing startling about it. Posted by: wolfgangmo75
this movement has alwys been th traitor to america and are agents of the british-english race.
Posted by: avatar_singh on Jun 5, 2008 5:54 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
trhe soutenr baptists groups are basically english agents parasitising in america . so ironic to call themselves patriots!.
confederacy was not only financed by the english race but alos instyigated by the enlgish to recapture america-and they did it successfully so much that today though american foreing and domestic poilcy is geared towardfs benefirt of the english race the americans do nto realizeit -let alone protesting agasint these parasites.

these protestant baptists((and so callled religious fundamentalists and evnagalicals bastards)) are the agents of england inside america and have always been.
thse baptists are the ones who created civil war for the benefit of british to reconquer america and during attack of britian in 1812 these baptists were acting as enemy agents inside amaerica.
these baptisat are called patrioit--now what a shame? the southern flag is sympbol of american patriotism when it was really an instrument of treachery to the american independence.

" I am afraid the meddling small minded, fearful white boy is indicative of a large group of the amerikan types who still support a corrupt regieme of neo-con syncopants. He and those like him live in suspicion and fear of anyone different from themselves.
He was once a settler who cut down and burned the forest of New England because he was afraid of the wildlife. He was once a trader who passed out smallpox blankets to the Indians. Then later a buffalo hunter who decimated entire herds and left them to rot on the plains. His grandfather herded Japanese into camps, his father was at MyLai. His brothers are at Abu Graib and Gitmo. Where will he be tommorrow?"

" but all non-WASP got (and still get) their time as scapegoat-du-jour: Native, Black, Chinese, Irish, Italian, Jew, Japanese, Catholic, Latino, and now Middle-Eastern, just to name a few. Along with the scapegoating goes the profiling, which is little more than prejudice and stereotypes made legal."



The recent director of Harvard’s Carr Center for Human Rights, Michael Ignatieff, proposed in the New York Times in May 2004 that we should give U.S. presidents the authority to preventively detain U.S. citizens and to engage in “coercive interrogations” should the United States experience another terrorist attack like 9/11. Ignatieff argued that “defeating terror requires violence” and “might also require coercion, secrecy, deception, even violation of rights.” “Sticking too firmly to the rule of law simply allows terrorists too much leeway to exploit our freedoms,” he said.[1]



In addition to Harvard’s top human rights academic arguing on behalf of “torture lite,” Harvard Law School’s Alan Dershowitz supports “torture warrants” so that U.S. presidents can torture detainees in so-called “ticking bomb” cases.

this world and is the main eviul brain behind american offensive (perpetual war) everywhere in the world. Why? Because only through american military might can a fourth rate country like england hope to have some influnce in the world.
and the rest of the world is resopibnsible for this-why has aljarreza engagesd the british journalists like frost in the english version?lokk how much propaganda english eversion al zareeja is making agasint irana nd zimbawe -in otherworlds doing the bidding for british media and british govermnet lies.
it is high time that thr british are removed forcibly from evrywhere outside britian or may be even inside if they are not goign to stop destrying other nations.
britian must be deafeated militarily-not a great diffciluty with a coward nation-and must be eliminated as serious challnege to humanity

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» What next? Posted by: wolfgangmo75
seccession has always been the English plot to control america.
Posted by: avatar_singh on Jun 5, 2008 6:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How britain got hold on america after american independence-- --- This all started soon after Napoleonic war when in 1816 to 1817 The english again attacked america in her southern flanks and the day was saved only because of some French navy mercenaries and French speaking population of Louisiana and such states along with non-english origin americans. But the english invaders infiltrated among that population of South of america which today calls itself bible belt (whose god has always been english royalty and who worship only stolen money).By 1850 to 1860 England attacked erstwhile friend (in Napoleonic war) Russia in Crimea along with erstwhile foe (now controlled by unpopular english stooge) France.-how the same pattern is so predictable in case of this intrusive, cancerous exploitative race called english and anglo saxons. At that very time England was actively supporting the slave exploitation, in fact all the big plantation owners were english derived and they owned loyalty not to flag of United states of america but to England. -in other words they were agents of foreign country who wanted to keep south america occupy as foreign power again. The civil war in america was not only supported with money and arms by england but rather england was the instigator of american civil war in order to keep whole of america enslaved and if not possible at least those parts (South) where it could call upon filial loyalty. It was truly a war of race-not against whites and blacks but against anglo saxons versus blacks, Irish, other European peoples .The same would be repeated in future. The confederacy was a traitor to america-a british agents; but ironically that same confederacy flag today is being propagandised by their descendents as symbol of american independence and patriotism. Having lost the proxy war england resorted to the one thing it specialises-terrorism and misinformation. Abraham Lincoln was murdered by the person very sympathetic to british cause. (against Napoleon england had sent several terrorist squads-that is why Napoleon had to declare Himself an Emperor to maintain the clear line of succession to protect glorious French Revolution). It is very interesting that most of the american presidents assassinated were those whom England did not want being elected. By the end of civil war ,instead of disinfranchasising the british supporters (of southern states) and taking away their land or at least redistributing evenly the stolen land, the american govt. was persuaded by britain to spare them and let those southern traitors keep all the stolen land so that drug (tobacco) and cotton would be of assured supply to england. Of course by that time because of fall of Napoleon (brought about not by military might but by conspiracy to embroil the Europeans among each other( conspiracy hatched in London-that was the only english contribution to napoleons' fall-forget waterloo where Austrians and Prussians had contributed most militarily):consequently england got free reign to exploit the rest of the world and amassed wealth. With that new loot the english shopkeepers started not only factory but also bought titles (Always a purchasable item in england) and started giving themselves high sounding titles and names. With that they started the rumour that english people had class and aristocracy and america could rub some off it if it was willing to ply right and play right. During that period england started propaganda of herself being friend of america though in britain news it hardly gave any importance to americans except with contempt. When the first world war came, england had already infiltrated in the american decision making process.( Though some of southern traitors had fled to Canada, most had remained to slowly spread their cancerous tentacles tn American govt. The first world war had been started by england to destroy Germany and Russia at the same time.

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» RE: Say it with me... Paragraphs Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
OLD STORY
Posted by: billgee on Jun 5, 2008 6:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hasnt the past taught you anything
Secession has honorable intents
The left has long been rumored to have links to similar views to the right.
But to actually join with dixiecrats ...

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Instead of seceding, VT could uses its energy to get other states to follow suit in standing up to
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 5, 2008 6:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
bad government. Look, the war-turned-occupation in Iraq will not end even if VT succeeds in seceding. Now, on the point of seceding, in all likelyhood, these pro-racist thugs wholeheartedly support the war-turned-occuption in Iraq in addition to slavery and racism. It would be rather helpful to see what Sanders, Dean, Leahy, and even the governor plan to do with this thug as he is giving VT a bad rap.

P.S.: And can we please quit begging the South to secede? There are plenty of equally racist areas in the north as well such as the Dakotas, rural areas of WI, IL, OH, and PA , Kansas, etc ... Why not tell them to secede as well?

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... I think , 'this' is just , the beginning ...
Posted by: dave1616 on Jun 5, 2008 6:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.discussrace.com

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The enemy of my enemy is not my friend
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Jun 5, 2008 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I fully support the right of the states to secede from the federal government.

I do not see where the federal government has the right to prohibit this. There is nothing in the constitution that gives the federal government the right to prohibit secession and there is nothing in the constitution that prohibits states from seceding.


However, the Vermont secessionists should wake up and realize just because another organization out there is in favor of secession does not mean that they are their friend.

How the League of the South views other issues should affect whether or not this Vermont group is willing to work with them.

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

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Every state has its set of scumbags who give it a bad rap !
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT on Jun 5, 2008 6:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For so long, we VTers get mistaken as "radicals" no matter what. Sadly, America has become another TX altogether whereby common sense is called names such as unpatriotic, terrorist, radical, etc ... whereas radicals and terrorists are called "heros". And this example proves that it's no different from Bush giving TX a bad rap or for that matter Cheney giving WY a bad rap because there are plenty of decent people in those two states who have had more than enough of those scumbags and keep trying to get in good replacements although the Democratic Party of TX and WY have been in piss poor conditions for about a couple of decades to say the least and progressive independents get squashed through threats, defunding, etc ... .

P.S:

Oh well, at least Vermont finally succeeded in making hemp farming legal. Can you get your state to do the same? I know CA is trying its best and I know it will win one day rather than be stuck with phonies such as Davis and Arnold who vetoed it in their terms as governor.

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» Tx and Vt! Posted by: Tom Tele
Don't Drag MY nationality Throw Your Crap!
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jun 5, 2008 7:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a 6th Generation Scotch Irishmen I am applauded by the behavior of my backward ass backwood 'cousins'.
have they forgotten what Our ancestors suffered when they landed on these shores. hav ethe forgotten who Kennedy was maligned for Being Irish & Catholic.Are they so illeterate they have No idea what Drove Our ancestors out of the British Isles.Pick up a F*cking History Book about our REAL history. We left because we lacked economic an dreligious freedom.
I come from a 'Covanenant' Jacobite ancestory. We were slaughtered due to the fact we were More Liberal regarding 'Religious Freedom' We did not follow either the English Protestants Nor the Roman Catholic Church. we Were considered heretics!
I dare say My 'Cousins' who have barricaded themselves in the mental 'Backwoods' are in desparate need of some qualified Teachers, Religious leaders, health care workers and Condoms! Our Struggle has been for 'Freedom' since William Wallace's War Cry. It was not Just for Us - but for All those oppressed by Tryanny.They betray our Ancestors and their Struggles with their small mindness.They should consider their views and acts as treason agianst their heritage and a heretical Act against the 'Almighty'.The Irish suffered from Racist attitudes Also NEVER FORGET IT!

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» THANK YOU PURPLE GIRL!!! Posted by: Kym525
Is it about the lack of faith, vision or you just can't read?
Posted by: Nightstallion on Jun 5, 2008 8:09 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In times long past, before the advent of the dictionary or the love of grammar, poets would employ the use of run on sentences to imbibe the still waters at loci long abandoned to Faun and Fairy, Dryad , Nymph stayed air et sea confabulators ere the rich mans world view Thoth and times: imbued it seems with tracts and reams carried on paper those rafts and dreams that even the King of this sort of thing the great enigmatic James Joyce can wring a mean of godless dreck, for as anyone knows who’s lapsed Catholicism is not cureable.

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SPLC trades in hysterics
Posted by: ceti on Jun 5, 2008 8:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The SPLC might do some good work, but it has long ago abandoned any pretence at proportionality and gone whole hog into drum beating warnings to mint money through direct mailings for its "non-profit."

Tiny groups like The Second Vermont Republic and League of the South are an easy target, but the federal government and its sanction of racial profiling, torture, and contempt for the lives of the conquered isn't a bigger threat? Come on now.

Here's Alex Cockburn's take on the SPLC:

I've long regarded Morris Dees and his Southern Poverty Law Center as collectively one of the greatest frauds in American life. The reasons: a relentless fundraising machine devoted to terrifying its mostly low-income contributors into unbelting ill-spared dollars year after year to an organization that now has an endowment of more than $100 million, with very little to show for it beyond hysterical bulletins designed to raise money on the proposition that only the SPLC can stop Nazism and the KKK from seizing power.


Gloria Browne, a lawyer who's worked with Dees' outfit, once told the Montgomery Advertiser that the Southern Poverty Law Center trades in "black pain and white guilt." He's the Jim and Tammy Faye Baker of the civil rights movement.


Or see this: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/11/hbc-90001573

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What the bloody F--- is this tripe?
Posted by: Nightstallion on Jun 5, 2008 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please read folks. To be erudite is not to be stupid, unless of course you love your slavish addiction to the idiosyncratic Power mongers that plague our “Federal Republic.” States Rights by their very existence imply Individual rights. I am not “Federated” with anyone but I will “Con-Federate” with all given the need to do so. There is no slavery in this, lest one construe my will to be somewhat gregarious as a slavery to self interest.

For the sake of sanity, please remember that the so-called “South” did not win that war and consequently had no say as to what it was all about at its closure! This is because the Victor always writes the "factual history” of that war. This is because by rights and lights the stories are mostly Equine Defecation (that’s horseshit for those of us who are unwashed and uneducated). These stories are available, but one must know where to look.

The problem is that only the curious types look for a more complete picture. Many of these texts and tomes were ignored out of existence, banned in schools, refused printing or burned outright if discovered. Do not tell me I do not know what I am talking about because America did not burn books! I happen to have been alive and present by television when Wilhelm Reich’s books were burned in public in New York in 1960’s.

There are people on both sides of this argument who think that war was about slavery. I have bashed my head against this wall of self imposed ignorance all my life. When in doubt play the RACE card. That will be sure to turn anyone against your arguments. Now I myself am a German, Amerind, Irish, French, English, Dutch, and Scot person. I realize to some of you that except for one of the above are not races. I beg to differ, I have been in Ireland, England, Germany and France and THEY tell me that they are races. Very strange is what it is, there is no accounting for ignorance. In addition, now you have folk studiously ignoring you because you have become politically incorrect.

Humans will find any excuse to insert their cranial appendage into the orifice of their fundament. It is as revolting as it is disgusting. Trust me on this. Hear this! Confederation has NOTHING to do with slavery. Slavery does not exist unless it is by choice and you have all chosen or accepted your Social Security numbers and are beasts anyway, so be silent. Reality Bites and Truth Hurts.

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The Vermonters made the mistake of a carpet bagger in their midst.
Posted by: nightgaunt on Jun 5, 2008 2:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the deepest of the South now in their bosom like an asp to kill them from within. Poison their ideas. Taint their meanings. Independence can be slow and weaned though the corporate state is definitely along Southeron lines. So they are wining by default! Vermonters need to dump this alliance now. I like the symbol of the porcupine they use. They may be able to have a quiet sucession. End the Federal laws against drugs and other things and paying as little taxes as they can get away with.Make the feds feel as if they are unwelcomed visitors in Vermont, a foreign land. Even recreating their own currency, to be used in Vermont only. Setting up their own militias. Train everyone in the military arts and armed to the teeth. Just like in peaceful Switzerland. And as free as the Swiss are. The Bill of Rights rule for all. Even if not in the USA as of 2008.

Also whites aren't the only ones wanting their own ethnic states you know.

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I Went to the League of the South's Website
Posted by: Kym525 on Jun 5, 2008 3:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry, they're RACISTS. Don't anyone try to tell me different because if you can't see it, step away from the crack pipe.

They try to disguise their virulent racism behind so-called "southern oppression". That it has been the evil northerners who have destroyed the "southern way of life". This group is nothing more than the KKK without sheets, though those might be in the dryer right now. Their "mission statement" is no different than any other separatist group no matter the high-falutin' rhetoric they spew. They HATE blacks, they HATE latinos, they HATE gays and lesbians, they HATE native americans--in short if you're not white, male and dominionist christian, don't bother to apply.

Talk about hysterical revisionism--oh, slavery wasn't so bad, it was those damned northern abolitionsists like William Lloyd Garrison and Harriet Beecher Stowe who used scare tactics to demonize the South. You know, "Dem dar slaves was happy because GAWD made them slaves and we wuz doin' dem dar coloreds a favor". I guess Frederick Douglass' first hand narrative and those of other former slaves and the testament of the whips and other forms of torture and inhumanity didn't count!

Bastards! William T. Sherman didn't go far enough--he should have razed the entire region and sent their racist butts into the swamps where they could have been gator food.

Yes, I'm not particularly fond of the South and admit I find it hard to believe sometimes that liberals can actually live in a place surrounded by that much ignorance. I guess free thought can survive the most hostile environments, so there's hope.

The fact that a state like Vermont, that has been progressive on many issues, would choose to ally themselves with a group so stained with blood is sickening. The next time the South wants to secede--LET 'EM. Collectively, they've dragged down the IQ of this country far too long.

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Second Vt Republic a non-issue in Vt
Posted by: Canute on Jun 5, 2008 4:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Writing as a politically aware Vermonter, I have to say that SVR is a virtual non-entity in this state, with zero political influence. Most Vermonters are probably unaware of its existence.

There is a general historical awareness here of Vermont's time as a republic in the 18th century - it is taught in our schools. There are myths in circulation about an "opt-out" clause in our adoption of statehood. There is even a very funny fictional book about a 20th century Vermont secession called "Out!" Nevertheless, few Vermonters take the concept of a 21st century secession seriously. It is more of a fun idea to be batted around when the federal government does something particularly stupid.

I am reminded of a statement by Scottish friend many years ago about the Scottish Nationalist movement. He said "You'd think it was a good idea except for the idiots who are advocating it."

I could see the U.S. fragmenting into de facto regional authorities as our energy, food, and finance picture deteriorates. I don't think it will happen by deliberate revolution, peaceful or otherwise. I don't think that any of us can predict how or when it will happen, but I would be surprised to see it in my lifetime.

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personally...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jun 5, 2008 7:56 PM   
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as a native californian...i'd like to see california secede and quit propping up the rest of the country.

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» RE: personally... Posted by: wolfgangmo75
Burt Cohen
Posted by: Burt Cohen on Jun 6, 2008 8:08 AM   
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I invite people from all over the currently united States to attend the 3rd annual Secessionist Convention in Manchester NH November 14-16, judge for yourself if we all would not be better off continuing the secession for true self government which our founders began. As a long time supporter of SPLC, and an attendee at the 2nd Secesh Convention I can assure you of the inaccuracy of their charges of racism. Again, judge for yourself. California, Cascadia, Alaska, Hawai'i, New Acadia; folks from all nations are invited. Contact me at burtc@rcn.com, and as to my left credentials, my website is burtcohen.net

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There is no right of secession. The fourteenth amendment clearly makes it illegal as insurrection
Posted by: yellow on Jun 6, 2008 9:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the US Constitution. No state has the legal right to secede from the union.

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some commentary (rant 'n' roll!)
Posted by: johnthetreehugger on Jun 6, 2008 1:40 PM   
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Since the gov't doesn't follow the Constitution, I see no reason the rest of us should. It's time for a new one anyway. The current one is antiquated and overabused by power hungry imperialists, war mongers and war profiteers.

Since we need a new one, it can include the innate right to free association that every human is born with (and is generally denied by most nation-states). That would include the right of different levels of human organizations to secede from one another.

For example: When and if the League of the South decides its time for some states to secede, a bunch of us who don't like their reactionary shit politics can seccede from them. Either on a bio-regional, county or even individual level.

And a note to you little seccession groups:

Second Vermont - i'm sorry that you chose to associate with bigots. it says something about how y'all handle your innate rights to free association that you chose to co-mingle with lazy dumb asses who want to bring back the days of mint juleps where everyone "knows their place" in the social (dis) order.

League of the South: many of you are white nationalist scum. you long for the bygone days of your forfathers. Whom, by the way, were too fucking stupid and lazy to do real, manual, labor on their own, hence their insecure needs for a social system that relies on either chattel slavery or wage slavery where "everyone knows their place." You pieces of shit can set up on the porch drinkin' mint juleps all you want, but if you dare to think you are better than me and set up a social system to enforce that I will gladly challenge your manhood and honor in any arena (mental or physical) that you chose. Because I know that people who demand racial seperation/oppression (social and economic hierarchies) are weak minded cowards who are too lazy or stupid to do their own work. So it won't be take much work on my part to take y'all down a peg or two.

go on, seccede. I will seccede from y'all and fuckin' laugh in your faces as you try to enforce some old-fashioned plantation shit on me and all my freedom loving southern appalachian anarchist buddies.

personally, i think the break-up of large nation states is a desirable thing. But it should happen along bio-regional lines and be a break-up based on true freedom and equality of opportunity for all, not some rehashing of the fuckin' War between the States so that some lazy rich assholes can live out their fantasies of mint juleps on the porch.

Note to progressives/radicals - we have a LOT of work to do encouraging free thinking, intellectual advancement, manual labor as a desirable thing, and tolerance, before we can successfully seccede from all the assholes in the military-industrial-business elite/complexes and live free.

lets get started.

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Why would the South want to secede now?
Posted by: buzzsaw on Jun 6, 2008 2:01 PM   
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All you have to do is look around. The South may have lost the war, but it has since won the hearts of large segments of our population. Just look at all of the Red States. Look at "free" trade. Tariffs was one of the reasons the South wanted out. As the article said, we are rapidly on the road to a new feudalism. Except for the loss of outright chattel slavery and the existence of racial equal rights on paper, I think that Jefferson Davis and the old southern elite would be quite pleased with the way the US has turned out.

buzzsaw-The Blue States now have more reason to want to secede than the Old (or New) South ever did.

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Secession is a Great Idea!
Posted by: Uriahz on Jun 6, 2008 4:14 PM   
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I'm an 8th generation Vermonter, and I studied under Frank Bryan at UVM back in the 90s-- he was by far the best professor I had there. My dad flew the Republic of Vermont flag from our flagpole rather than the American flag.

Most people in Vermont joke about seceding from the union. It's a part of what makes up being a Vermonter. There is indeed a strong cultural drive to do something different there. The thing is, most people there also realize that it would be a huge pain in the ass. If the US imposed sanctions or tariffs, the economy would utterly crumble without a shot ever being fired, and the state's people would vote to rejoin inside two years. It would require a strong leader to step up and make the sort of bold changes necessary to allow such a small economy to prosper effectively, someone able to inspire the confidence among money lenders that would be required to fund such a separation, someone able to unite the natives and the flatlanders and thus prevent a class war. And honestly, Vermonters tend to be so anti-authoritarian in nature anyway that you'd probably have a hard time mustering enough support for strong leadership to begin with.

Much of Vermont's population lives along the New Hampshire border and relies on its relationship with NH for economic stability. My own hometown is largely a suburb of the two NH towns across the river which host the vast majority of local jobs. Much of Vermont's economy is based on money coming in from tourism and specialty products (Ben and Jerry's, maple syrup, Magic Hat, Vermont Teddy Bear, etc etc etc). An economy based on such things is extremely vulnerable to the added burden of US Customs, particularly in today's political climate. Vermont would not survive long as an independent nation-state.

And that's assuming the military wouldn't come kick our asses anyway, that assassination wouldn't be used, that the whole thing wouldn't turn to utter shit at the hands of the US government. No, everyone knows secession would have some major problems.

It's fun to think about, though. I would vote for secession, for as unfortunate as Sale and Naylor's affiliations with racists are, I don't think their wrongheadedness reflects on the Vermont secession movement itself.

Incidentally, this post has some of the most incoherent, racist, and ill-thought comments I've ever seen on AlterNet.

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To find out the truth
Posted by: Redrum on Jun 7, 2008 6:39 PM   
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Go to Vermont Secession.com

Everything you need to find on the Second Vermont Republic and their associations to racist organizations and individuals are there (and backed up).

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Tom Naylor is classless
Posted by: Redrum on Jun 7, 2008 6:45 PM   
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Naylor regularly berates government officials. He calls Vermont's elected officials "enemies of the state" and has labeled six-term Vermont Sen. Patrick Leahy, a Democrat, "a world-class prostitute."

Nice colleague Rob. After all "you are the company you keep."

BTW, why did Bill McKibben's articles suddenly disappear from the VT Commons Web site? They came off just as soon as this dirt came out. Mind explaining that?

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» RE: Tom Naylor is classless Posted by: lordradish