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Rights and Liberties

The Right to Bear Arms: A View from Canada

By Tim O'Driscoll, AlterNet. Posted June 4, 2008.


The Second Amendment: Twenty-seven ill-chosen words, three badly-placed commas, one unrivaled legislative botch-up.
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The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: Twenty-seven ill-chosen words, three badly-placed commas, one unrivaled legislative botch-up.

Being a Toronto-area lawyer, I certainly can't speak for the average Canadian on the subject of the Second Amendment; few of my countrymen, naturally, would have a clue as to its contents or that of its twenty-six siblings. I'd expect, though, that those of the informed few who read of a pending U.S. Supreme Court decision reacted as I did -- by taking off their mythical toques and scratching their heads.

In late June, the Supreme Court is expected to hand down its decision in District of Columbia vs. Heller. At issue in the case is D.C.'s handgun ban, the strictest of its kind in America. Struck down by the Appeals Court last year as violating the Second Amendment, the ban will now fly or die based upon the Supreme Court's interpretation and application of these twenty-seven words and three commas: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Opponents in the gun-control debate ascribe very different interpretations to the amendment. To gun-control advocates, it is nothing more than the protection of a state's right to maintain a militia; to the pro-gun gang, it is nothing less than confirmation of an individual's constitutional right to own a gun.

Things certainly are different above the forty-ninth parallel. While we admittedly have our fair share of gun-control issues and controversy in Canada, at least our law-makers aren't faced with an arguable gun-ownership right being inscribed in our constitution in all-but-indelible ink.

Canada's current gun-control legislation -- which the Supreme Court of Canada upheld in 2000 -- contains harsh penalties for crimes involving firearms, and requires licenses to acquire and possess them. All guns must be registered, and handguns can only be owned by police, security officers, and approved target shooters and collectors. As you read this, the mayor of Toronto is waging an internet campaign, entreating Canadians coast-to-coast to sign an on-line petition for an extension of the ban to include the latter two groups.

From time to time north of the border, we, too, hear it argued that the right to bear arms exists, with its supposed provenance being traced all the way back to the Magna Carta of 1215. Fortunately, however, such "right" isn't badly-but-expressly stated in our constitution; its genealogy is fuzzy at best; and, above all, our Supreme Court isn't buying it.

Back stateside, however, the Supremes seem poised to sing a different tune. The Second Amendment was voted on in 1789 and ratified two years later, but not once since then has the Supreme Court used it to strike down a gun-control law. Incredibly, if the questions and comments from the Court during the D.C. vs. Heller hearing last March are any tip-off, that is about to change: The Court appears ready, by a five-to-four margin, to rule that the amendment gives individuals the right to own a gun.

Yes, my toque is off and I'm scratching furiously.

Isn't the amendment's thirteen-word preamble a clear-cut indication of a militia-related purpose?

Shouldn't the social context in which it was passed -- a fledgling nation, having spit the bit of imperial oppression and wary of replacement tyranny -- be examined in interpreting its meaning?

Is it not crucially significant that "to bear arms" is a centuries-old phrase referring to an organized militia, dating back to the medieval writing of 'Beowulf,' and pre-dating the invention of firearms by hundreds of years?

Needn't notice be taken that firearms were already blazing away in 1789, thus the "fire" prefix -- if intended to apply to "arms" -- could have easily been inserted?

Should we really expect the Supreme Court -- whose ruling will be legal and binding from sea to shining sea -- to hang its horse-hair wig on any or all of the above weight-bearing hooks, to act as the voice of reason in an increasingly gun-happy America? No, we shouldn't. America loves its guns, and a majority of the Brethren don't appear eager to spoil the fun. Wild West mentality is apparently here to stay. If a presidential candidate brags of ducking imaginary sniper fire at a Bosnian airport, let the winner dodge real bullets at Dulles.

A recent Gallup poll asked Americans if they thought that there should be a law that would ban the possession of handguns, except by the police and other authorized persons. Just under two-thirds said no. Almost two-thirds of Gallup-polled Canadians, on the other hand, did not believe that the general public should be allowed to own a gun of any sort. Gun-ownership rates north and south of the border correspond fairly closely to such opinions; while the U.S. population is ten times that of that of Canada, the number of privately-owned guns in the U.S. is twenty-five times higher. As opposed to its U.S. meaning, in Canada, "packing heat" is something most often achieved with a thermos.

Currently, the homicide rate in the U.S. is well over twice that of Canada, with the historical difference being much greater still. About half of U.S. homicides are committed with guns, while in only a third of Canadian homicides is a gun the weapon of choice.

While there appears to be a direct correlation between gun-ownership rates and the number of gun-related deaths, predictably, opponents of gun control question the validity of the statistics and the lessons to be learned from them, and they carefully arrange the numbers in such a manner as to suggest that no causal relationship exists. Figures can't lie, but liars can figure.

The National Rifle Association puts forth its bumper-sticker slogan as stating an essential truth: "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people". Wow, folks, deep thinking Based upon that faulty logic, instead of searching passengers, the airlines may as well hand out free box-cutters with every boarding pass. The undeniable fact is that people use guns to kill people. While the Canadian statistics are still alarming, I'd prefer to take my chances on this side of the border, where most folks think that shooting is something you do with a puck.

A marked difference in mayoral strategies is another interesting gun-culture comparative between Canada and the States: While Toronto's mayor seeks to close the last two loopholes in an overall ban on handguns, the mayor of New York has taken the bold step of banning the painting of handguns using designer colours. The only tangible result of New York City's 2006 ban is a line of "Bloomberg" gun-paint, with custom colours being named after the city's five boroughs. Now that's getting a bang for your bling.

While there is some temporary merit to the pro-gun-rights caveat that "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns," I'm far from convinced that having everyone armed to the teeth is an acceptable long-range alternative.

But forget another personal view on the merits of gun control; it's all been said before, it'll all be said again, and few who hold an opinion -- particularly those who are also holding a gun -- listen to opposing viewpoints anyway. Instead, consider that abysmal piece of legal draftsmanship, the Second Amendment:

The first ten amendments grafted a Bill of Rights onto the fundamental principles by which the nation would be governed; this wasn't just the shopping list for the Founding Fathers' 1789 picnic on the White House lawn. While the Second Amendment was surely deserving of some serious thought before pen hit paper, it appears that few brain cells were burned on its wording, as it neither means what it says, nor says what it means.

If the intent of the amendment was to confirm the right to own a gun, why didn't it simply state that? If that wasn't its intent, why wasn't that made clear, avoiding a future misinterpretation of colossal proportions?

Sadly, only this is quite clear about the Second Amendment: Whoever drafted it shoulda been shot. Metaphorically speaking, of course.



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See more stories tagged with: 2nd amendment, gun control, d.c. v. heller

Tim O'Driscoll is an attorney from Toronto.

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badly mangled amendment
Posted by: WesternNY on Jun 4, 2008 1:29 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree, the 2nd amendment is truly poorly worded and basically does not mean what is says, nor does it say what it means.

I have come to the conclusion that the poor wording is on purpose, as the Founding Fathers also could not come to agreement. To some extent they had some of the same factions arguing on the need of the state versus the individual to have the right to bear arms. And as always in politics, the two sides could only agree on wording that is truly muddled and fudges any clear meaning.

Maybe they were hoping that the issue would be settled in the future, when times appeared less "parlous."

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» RE: badly mangled amendment Posted by: Woodpecker
The problem...
Posted by: OrlandoNative on Jun 4, 2008 2:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...isn't in the wording. It's that the interpretation and point of view has changed SINCE the second amendment was proposed, written, and ratified.

Back during the Revolutionary War days, NO ONE would have thought twice about any free citizen of the colonies owning a gun. It was pretty much a given that each household would have one or more.

ONE of the factors that initially caused hostilities to break out was an attempt by the British to confiscate some arms owned by local citizens around Boston, as I recall.

The 'founding fathers' knew well that, should a government (at any level - federal, state, or local) want to limit personal freedoms available to the general populace, that the formation of a civilian militia in opposition was the only way to ensure that this *could* be opposed, if the citizenry so desired.

Nothing about the second amendment's reference to 'a free state' is actually tied to the individual states that ended up in the Union. The 'a free state' mentioned there actually refers to the ordinary citizenry taken as a whole. The actual *FORM* of government they pick to rule them is immaterial. While other parts of the Constitution lay out a form of government to be tried; it also puts forth ways to modify such a construct.

However, the *final* check on *any* government was an armed populace; and the founders knew that well, and allowed for it.

If one reads the Federalist Papers, this comes through loud and clear.

While the second amendment may come in second in the list of those ratified, it's really the first as far as a guarantee of *all* of our freedoms are concerned.

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» RE: You greatly over estimate the Military Posted by: Romantic Violence
» RE: The problem... Posted by: tmwright
» RE: The problem... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The problem... Posted by: Knot_Rich
Read the Federalist Papers
Posted by: tomr62262 on Jun 4, 2008 2:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article is typical socialist tripe. Read the federalist papers and you'll find the USA's founding fathers clearly meant that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right. The US unlike Canada also has a general belief in self reliance, meaning the individual not the government are responsible for their own safety and wellbeing. Hence the vast majority of us believe in and exercise our right to keep and bear arms. I don't think you understand the depth of that belief. In the US if the government outlawed guns they would have to war upon it's own citizens to collect them as they would not be surrendered peaceably.

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» RE: Amen Posted by: chaoslegs
» Self-reliance ideology is the uniqueness of the US Posted by: Libertarian Paternalist
» You want to quote that? Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: ead the Federalist Papers Posted by: Desert Wren
» Amen to that. Posted by: Walt K
Box cutters on airplanes
Posted by: fridgepants on Jun 4, 2008 2:30 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Did you consider the ramifications if box cutters were handed out on each flight? Don't you think that the nutcase who wants to use his knife would be hesitant if he knew that his fellow law-abiding passengers could defend themselves? What kind of idiot would try something stupid like hijacking or taking a hostage if everyone sitting around them was able to slice them down?

So long as there are box cutters in existence, evil people will have them. If I happen to have one too, the ability of evil people to hurt innocent people is drastically reduced. In essence allowing law abiding citizens to own box cutters levels the playing field.

When only one crazy man has a box cutter, he can commit unspeakably evil acts. Even if that crazy guy still has a box cutter, when just one average citizen also has one, suddenly the ability of the crazy guy to go crazy is severely impinged.

When the crazy guy is worried about being cut by a box cutter, he would likely change his tune. He may be far less likely to slice somebody if he knows there is a possibility of getting sliced himself.

It is for this reason that so long as there are guns in existence, private gun ownership should be a basic right of the citizenry.

Call me when there are no more guns; I'll gladly surrender mine.

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» RE: Box cutters on airplanes Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: Box cutters on airplanes Posted by: Romantic Violence
» RE: Box cutters on airplanes Posted by: helmunator
Two comments
Posted by: mizipi on Jun 5, 2008 2:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. OK, according to the NRA, I do have the individual right to 'keep and bear arms', so I should be able to have the same 'arms' as my government, like tanks, fighter jets, cluster bombs, depleted uranium bombs and bullets - no my government has all of the big guns, and individual citizens are allowed to own only pop-guns and fire-crackers.

2. If any person today wrote something similar to the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, that person would be arrested and charged with some secret law and sent to a prison to be tortured. Our Constitution is nothing more than an old piece of paper with no value for the average American citizen. Rights, liberty and justice are all purchased for money in the USA today.

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» RE: Two comments Posted by: CUnknown
Author's bias is evident
Posted by: davidhhahn on Jun 5, 2008 2:24 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This author's bias is evident in the first few sentences when he describes those who support gun control as "advocates," and those who favor the right of gun ownership as a "gang."

Here is the full quote: "To gun-control advocates, it is nothing more than the protection of a state's right to maintain a militia; to the pro-gun gang. . . ."

I knew at that point that this would be another shallow essay about the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

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» "well regulated" Posted by: OrlandoNative
» RE: "well regulated" Posted by: Desert Wren
the good old days
Posted by: grmartin on Jun 5, 2008 4:21 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its easy to argue about on what the 2nd amendment technically says, or what the founding fathers mean't by it at the time. More useful is to look at the role of guns in present society, and I'd say its all bad news. In the past guns were great for eiminatiing wiflelife and native Americans, guarding one's property and feeding the family. Today the only use that might make any sense is as a protective weapon against crime. But a society were people think they need personal weapons because they don't trust the police has big problems. Maybe too a society that allows a small hunting minority to murder animals for fun, might wonder why. Its up to the people to change the way they live, if they want to. This issue, like so many others,is one that make the USA are very conservative place, not so well adapted to change. Get used to it, and live with the consequences.

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» It's not really a question... Posted by: OrlandoNative
» RE: the good old days Posted by: Livemike
Otto .
Posted by: otto on Jun 5, 2008 4:40 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Canadian American, I say "Great Article"! I just hope that lots of John Wayne fans read it (including members of the Supreme Court)!

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» RE: Otto . Posted by: ghostmaker2
» RE: Otto . Posted by: Mr. G
» Amerika is full of weak minds Posted by: HoboHomo
What about the Constitution?
Posted by: rugger on Jun 5, 2008 4:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is always left out of this debate is the function of the militia.

"To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; "

So the function of the militia was very clear. The militia consisted of a body TRAINED TO ARMS, with officers to be appointed by the states. Without this militia and training as PRESCRIBED BY CONGRESS, there is no implicit right of unrestricted personal ownership.

So Scalia, since you see the Constitution as a NON-LIVING document, take that and shove it up your overly abundant ass sideways.

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» Militia Act of 1792 Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Militia Act of 1792 Posted by: rugger
» RE: Militia Act of 1792 Posted by: Livemike
» RE: Militia Act of 1792 Posted by: HoboHomo
» RE: Militia Act of 1792 Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Militia Act of 1792 Posted by: YogiBear
Canadian View
Posted by: Carl in Chicago on Jun 5, 2008 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Tim:

While an academic or intellectual discussion of the US's second amendment would be appropriate at this time, if not educational, I found your piece to be predicated on bigotry and superiority rather than on understanding of the history and intent of the amendment. I also find it passing strange that you, a Toronto lawyer, opine so forcefully upon it yet claim that both past and present Americans don't understand what it means.

I invite you to study the history and intent of the second amendment to the US constitution. There is much scholarly literature, including the writings at the time of the founding. You stand to learn a great deal about this issue. If you are unwilling to do at least that, then I politely request that you hold your pen for two reasons: first because it's inappropriate to write about something you do not understand, and second because you show disrespect for diversity and different way of doing things.

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» RE: Canadian View Posted by: ghostmaker2
ghostmaker
Posted by: ghostmaker2 on Jun 5, 2008 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this guy has no ideal of what he is talking about, first of all the "people" has always ment just that in the BOR, our government has always been setup to where the people were suppose to have the power, and the government very little power. Every where in the BOR that says people it me us, so the does not change with the 2nd just because some A-hole wants it to.

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ghostmaker
Posted by: ghostmaker2 on Jun 5, 2008 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To Rugger

you are wrong my friend, the militia would not be here if not for the people with arms, the right of people to have arms came way before the BOR, and even in the BOR the people always means us, so why would it be different in the 2nd?

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» RE: ghostmaker Posted by: mainspark
» RE: ghostmaker Posted by: rugger
» RE: ghostmaker Posted by: radiomorning
Box Cutter Control
Posted by: BeckyD on Jun 5, 2008 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Based upon that faulty logic, instead of searching passengers, the airlines may as well hand out free box-cutters with every boarding pass

A criminal with a box cutter is a greater threat to society than a law abiding citizen with an Uzi. The old NRA slogan may be trite, but it's also got an element of truth. The problem is people.

That being said, I have no problem with reasonable restrictions on the right to own guns - no right is absolute, but the 2nd Amendment says what it says, and in the context of the late 18th century as well as in the context of the other amendments in the BoR, there's no doubt in my mind that the founders were envisioning an individual's right to defend himself against tyranny.

If society has evolved beyond that type of thinking and we want to ban guns, then there is a process in place to repeal the 2nd Amendment, just as we amended the Constitution to ban slavery, give women and young adults the right to vote, etc., in response to societal change. Ignoring a part of the Constitution or interpreting the life out of it just because it doesn't fit our agenda makes us just like the Bush Administration. Either we respect the rule of law (which in the U.S. is based in the Constitution) or we don't.

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» RE: Box Cutter Control Posted by: albany_ed
communication in free assembly, not guns
Posted by: Vic Fedorov on Jun 5, 2008 5:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The second amendment is certainly ungrammatical. But I think it is clear our founders intended to encourage militias to protect us and fight for us, and conjure up spirit marching about, and not for arms to protect the house against criminals.

I think our founders intended for local free assemblies where the community could speak about crime and their causes to protect our lives and property from other citizens. They intended for communication among community in free assemblies to remedy local ills.

In San Diego County Gun Club v. Reno, and a case involving "Hickman" the federal court of appeals out of California ruled the second amendment allows regulated militias to bear arms, and not private citizens.

Ironically, it is the police of each town that qualify as well-regulated militias, even though they don't march around conjuring up spirit.

The reason why people resort to guns instead of effective and moral communication with the community to protect themselves, is that that communication is subsumed by local officials and subsequent, many citizens are disapointed and unempowered by the local political process.

The irony is that the tenth amendments' reservation of powers not given to the federal government by the U.S. Constitution, are violated when those powers are excercised by local officials who are neither state nor people, being local officials. Our founders intended for free assemblies with voice votes and consensus as the enemation of the government of a locality.

Thus we see how the tyranny of america is local, and not federal. That we don't know the tenth amendment or understand free assembly indicates totalitarianism.

Totalitarianism is fought by spirituality. It's illogical to think people could go in this regulated way of life without coming together to discuss the economy locally, or complain about treated en masse and having time regulated by school. Thus their must be some mind controll, a kingdom of God, we must address first, before we have hope of enforcing the tenth amendment, promoting local free assemblies, and ridding towns of the tyrannies of mayors and few deciding for the many. Representative democracy makes sense at a state and federal level, but at a local level, you want proactive people and polity discussing the economy and how their kids are raised, and this is encouraged if not mandated by the constitution.

Though state constitutions enable local officials, federal law always trumps state law.

If there were free assemblies that discussed the economy, instead of the domain of communication being trusted to local officials, there would be much less crime and want for gun.

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No, No, No, NO. If you're going to insist on a creative reading, then...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jun 5, 2008 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...I must insist that the people retain the right to keep and bear arms in order to keep the militia well-regulated. It says so right there, if only you apply the correct inflection. And after all, you wouldn't want a bunch of yahoo's running around raping and pillaging, now would you? Would that not indeed jeopardize the security of a free state?

So there: we have the consideration of the militia and the individual right in full alignment.

And you're quite welcome for me solving the author's implied National Comma Crisis. Now, about that little Iraq thing, the national debt, the privatization of military missions, financial industries run amok...

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Distinguish long guns from handguns please
Posted by: ozonehole on Jun 5, 2008 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Handguns - especially in the city - do pose a threat to public safety. Their concealability makes them the weapons of choice for a criminal.

It's a different issue entirely with long guns, and especially in rural areas. Even the most diehard anti-hunting gun-control advocate in Toronto would (or should) have second thoughts about wandering around in polar bear country without a shotgun or rifle.

Of course, for most people, gun ownership is about defending the home. Again, you don't really need a handgun for that - indeed, a shotgun works better.

The whole issue of handgun vs. long gun didn't really exist back in 1776, when the most formidable weapons were muskets and single-shot pistols. Technology has given us a lot more firepower.

I'd personally like to see shotguns and rifles kept legal for individual use, but I have very mixed opinions about handguns. When society is totally disarmed, you won't necessarily be safer.

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» RE: Distinguish long guns from handguns please Posted by: Outsidetheboxlookingin
JT
Posted by: rimchamp77 on Jun 5, 2008 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Guns should be treated no differently than drivers licenses - responsible for 10 times the number of deaths than guns. Operators should be licensed and well versed in laws restricting use. Operators should be responsible for the safe usage and storage of their tools [potential tools] of destruction. And yes, gun licenses should have one's picture on it and acceptable as personal ID. And it could be suspended or revoked.
The downside is that drivers often drive with suspended licenses - even after multiple DUIs. Why would we expect much different behavior from gun licensees. And many drivers act like maniacal despots terrorizing their fellow drivers and citizenry. And yes, some of them also use guns for intimidation purposes. So don't expect licensing to take care of the really bad actors in our society.

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» RE: JT Posted by: Outsidetheboxlookingin
» RE: JT Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: JT Posted by: Livemike
» RE: JT Posted by: Livemike
History lesson
Posted by: doodles on Jun 5, 2008 6:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a historian, rather than reading the Federalist Papers, I recommend that everyone try reading the history of the Second Constitutional Convention. The Constitution would not have been ratified at all, if the Bill of Rights had not been added. The argument that Jefferson and Adams made was that the Bill of Rights was a necessary addition as the Constitution only spoke of the rights and structure of the government. It did not speak to the "rights of the people." The Bill of Rights enumerates the "rights of the people" as opposed to those of the government. It is that context which is critical to understanding the whole Bill of Rights, not just the 2nd Amendment. The Declaration of Independence and Federalist Papers explain the attitude that made this Amendment necessary, i.e. not only the right, but the duty of people "to throw off such (despotic) Government and to provide new Guards for their future security. As someone previously pointed out, nothing makes despots or external invaders more nervous than an armed citizenry, which is why the British attempted to confiscate the guns of Americans. The first thing despots do to secure their tyranny is disarm the citizenry. Our Founders intended to prevent that action by our or any other government.

Additionally, it is necessary to a proper historical understanding of the Constitution to have an understanding of the language of the time in which that document was written. Militias were not organized institutions when the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were written. There were no armories. All arms were the property of private individuals. If "militia" action was needed, a call was sent out to the "people" and they responded by grabbing their "arms" and horses and riding to a specified location. They did occasionally get together to practice the "arts of war." It was that Practice that the founders meant by the phrase "well regulated militia."

And for those without a proper understanding of American grammar, the first two phrases are dependent clauses which only modify the only part of the 2nd Amendment that can stand alone, grammatically. It is that part which is an actual sentence: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

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» Lexington and Concord Posted by: rugger
» RE: Lexington and Concord Posted by: brunowe
» Read my other post Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Check the results from those battles Posted by: ReallyBearish
The Supreme Court Rules on Constitutionality, It Does NOT Create Law
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Jun 5, 2008 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If people want to ban guns, create and pass a new constitutional amendment. Do NOT do an end run around the constitutional processes we have in place just because it is easier.


How many on here favor using the INTERstate commerce clause to make drugs illegal?

That is how the Supreme Court justified keeping cannabis illegal in their 2005 ruling.


How many on here favor using the INTERstate commerce clause to allow the limiting of the production of certain food crops you can grow on your own property?

That was a Supreme Court ruling, Wickard v Filburn.


The Interstate Commerce Clause affects commerce between states, it is not supposed to regulate commerce within a state or private personal production and consumption. Because of piss poor unconstitutional Supreme Court rulings like the 2 above our federal government has been allowed to grow into a titan.


If you want to end gun ownership, create a new Amendment. There is a right way and a wrong way to do it. If you take the quick and easy path there will be unforeseen consequences down the road and our federal government will grow even more powerful and uncontrollable.

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The real purpose
Posted by: mapthinking on Jun 5, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bill of Rights and the Second Amendment are very inspired by Jefferson. Most of our founding fathers were highly suspicious of the possible tyranny of government. I believe that they intended that any move that takes firearms from Citizens was to give the government permission to oppress it's people. Of course our experiment in freedom lasted much longer than Jefferson would have imagined.

200+ years later I struggle with this. I believe mandatory training and licensing are valid gun control steps. I don't expect we as citizens should keep m-60's in our basements. But I would never want to be without the failsafe protection of a firearm to stop an intruder who wants to hurt my family.

Lastly, To disarm law abiding citizens will do nothing to stop those who want to get guns for crimes. Whatever your opinion on our border with Mexico we can all agree that very little stops people/drugs from come across. It's very profitable to smuggle into this country. I'm sure weapons come across too.

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The REAL history of the 2nd Amendment
Posted by: navy-vet on Jun 5, 2008 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Magna Carta--? No. I'm a long-time student of Medieval history, and know that the 2nd Amendment was based historically on England's Statute of Winchester, 1285. Edward I, one of England's most aggressive imperialist monarchs, was so embroiled in foreign wars he forgot about England's law 'n' order--until reminded by a national crime wave of club-weilding thugs, often led by landless barons and knights.

What to do? Since the Norman invasion the lowest classes had been excluded from keeping military weapons. (Henry I even had a notorious nightmare of a massive peasants' revolt.) But Edward not only gave the peasantry--including the villeins (serfs)--the RIGHT to bear arms, he ORDERED them to do so! Inefficient, slow crossbows were discouraged. Wily Edward I had learned from encounters with the deadly longbowmen of Wales when he conquered that country. Peasants were to make their own longbows and practice arrows, while swords, long knives and leather armor were furnished by the lords to those who couldn't afford them, and all men from 16 to 60 would practice after church every Sunday. (Great way to spend a meditative, religious Sunday, hm?)

Practice was enforced, and not only was it the origin of the people's militia in England, the bowmen got so efficient they beat the iron pants off the French barons and knights at Morlaix, Crecy, Agincourt and elsewhere, their wandering mercenaries became a danger to Continental Europe, and they were the earliest nation in Europe to use cannon in war (about 1346).

Powerful longbows and lead-filled, metal-fletched war arrows remained the weapons of choice until portable fireams were invented in the 15th century, and the English lower class bowmen turned the tables on their own lords in 1381, with a major peasants' revolt that resulted in real wages rising 300% in most laboring jobs, rural and urban, over the next few years. Being grateful for their trained militias is why the leaders of the 1381 revolt chose the Statute of Winchester as the legitimate law of the land--and why it has been celebrated by historians as the ONLY democratic statute in Medieval England.

But was it truly democratic? It greatly enhanced the status of the peasantry and gave them means to fight back, but being forbidden to carry arms and suddenly being ordered to practice military drill were compulsory, not matters of choice, and Edward I's purpose was not democratic. It was to let the peasants take care of "homeland security", freeing up all those land-hungry knights for his wars in Scotland, Gascony, etc. However, despite its obvious flaws, this statute has been restated down through the ages, in the English civil war of the 17th century, our revolution, and our 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights, as a necessity for freedom.

Sometimes it has been. The English would have walked all over the rebels without guerrilla American snipers with rifles and blunderbuses (we would have lost anyway without foreign help). Colonial firearms were slow, inaccurate and simple, and as long as most households needed a rifle for food procurement the 2nd amendment made sense--but when did it stop making sense?

In a historical arc of violence that began with cannons, grenades, Gatling guns and repeating rifles, and now offers flame-throwers, plastic explosives, napalm, phosphorous, automatic pistols and rifles, and, yes, nukes, where is the line drawn? The founders of the Constitutions wouldn't have known that these appalling weapons were in the wings. They expected Americans to AMEND the Constitution according to changing times and common sense. It isn't as though we've never rethought an amendment. Remember Prohibition? But where the 2nd Amendment is concerned, common sense meets a closed and bolted iron gate built by those who manufacture and sell firearms, stifling updating of the language of the 2nd Amendment.

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Ah, well, I have a dream . .
Posted by: pete ess on Jun 5, 2008 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One day all the Americans who carry guns and vote for fascists will realise how they have been fooled by the corporations they have given such power to. They will see how the govt and corporations who now own them have lied to them, and made them poor and powerless.
And then they (private citizens and those in uniform) will rise up to kick the bastards out and return power to the people.
That day I am going to be glad they all have guns.

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Sure - a well regulated militia . . .
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Jun 5, 2008 7:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure a "well-regulated militia" is a group of people who have never handled a gun before in their lives. That makes Canadian lawyer sense, all right. Whatever one argues about the meaning of the Second Amendment, let me give the author and the rest of his kind some "intell." When the law says U.S. citizens can't own a firearm and use it for the purpose of self-defense, you are going to see civil disobedience that will make Prohibition violation and the civil rights movement both black and white seem like a fart against a whirlwind. This argument is dead, an exercise in rhetoric, nothing more. It is impossible to disarm the citizenry of the U.S. (our government can't even rid us of illegal aliens, for crying out loud), just as it is impossible to disarm me. Give it up, folks - you're peeing into the wind.

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Let's give the gun toters who claim to be for the Constitution a perfect LITMUS test.
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 5, 2008 7:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here are some questions to test the double standard attitude some gun toters have for/against the Constitution:

1. Are you in favor of government continuing to ban Cannabis despite the fact that it's harmless compared to all those petro-manufactured chemicals you ingest through all that junk food and Big Pharma poison pills?

2. Are you in favor of allowing Big Telco and Government to continue spying and stripping your privacy rights from right under your noses or are you ready to stand up to and abolish the CIA, FBI, FCC, NSA, etc ...?

3. Are you in favor of allowing Big Media/Entertainment slapping frivolous lawsuits because they are afraid P2P is exposing their unethical and even ILLEGAL pricing schemes in desperate attempts to sell their poor quality music and movies which gets piss poorer year after year?

4. Have you finally had enough of losing your wages, jobs, and even your homes and ready to realize that guns and bible aren't the answer? Are you finally ready to stand up to the wealthy elite including the NRA and Big Religion rather than let them hynotize you again by swinging guns and bibles in your faces and making up false alarms that you'll lose them if you don't vote for sellouts?

P.S.:

As a man who survived 4 bullets in his life, I know that being a vigilante is more than being armed with just guns.

PEACE !

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» Gun Toters Toke Too !!!!!! Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Gun Toters Toke Too !!!!!! Posted by: maxpayne
The 2nd Amendment myth
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jun 5, 2008 7:26 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
About gun ownership being an "individual" right. Most folks in 1782 didn't own guns because they were hard to come by and were difficult to use. Most of the folks who showed up when militias were being formed at the time of the revolution expected the state to supply the weapons. Many of the weapons they did have were inappropriate. Hunting rifles were not standard issue for fighting 18th century wars.

Yes, this was the position taken by Michael Bellesiles. A gun nut himself, he postulated that the technology and manufacturing had to improve before firearm ownership could be widespread. He was threated, lost his teaching job at Emory University, and literally run out of the country for saying that. That's how gun freaks debate-- by threats and force.

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» Not a myth Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Not a myth Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Rifles were NOT good field weapons Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Strange logic Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Three paragraphs from a 500 page book Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Paragraphs that got caught, Posted by: brunowe
» Yeah right Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Yeah right Posted by: brunowe
» Can you read? Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: The 2nd Amendment myth Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: The 2nd Amendment myth Posted by: Livemike
A two nitpicks, something missing, and a loophole
Posted by: chaoslegs on Jun 5, 2008 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tim,

As a Toronto area lawyer, you shouldn't describe your view as being from above the 49th parallel as you are far below it, south of the 44th parallel. I went to University of Toronto, I know.

If you are going to reference Dulles and gunfire in the context of the DC ruling, my understanding is that Dulles, this suburban DC (in Virginia) airport is not the easiest to get to, definitely not by transit from DC, and so Virginia less restrictive laws are more relevant.

Why no mention of the December 6, 1989 massacre at Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal in shaping Canadians attitudes. I was in first year of University when that happened. The shock on my campus, and throughout Canada was overwhelming. Just as it was on September 11th, 2001 and 3 days later when the nation observed 3 minutes of silence, I was in Toronto during that time. I think this massacre still impacts both the Canadian legislation on gun ownership and the attitudes.

The 2nd amendment mentions security of a free state. Well the DISTRICT of Columbia is not a state, so maybe there is a loophole there!

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A couple more questions I forgot to add to the LITMUS test I posted earlier.
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 5, 2008 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
5. Are you ready to cut down on the bloated military budget that has done NOTHING to save America from terrorist attacks all the while killing innocent people which your "lovely" NRA strongly endorses?

6. Are you happy that the NRA and most of the bigger gun lobby groups silently team up with Big Oil and Timber to take away your hunting environment or do you want to fight to get it back?

7. Are you happy that healthcare in America is piss poorer than it was back in 1980 and are you happy that Big Insurance is DEFRAUDING you? If you want to shoot down the frauds and provide us all with honest insurers, I just might salute you, hehe.

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The attitude of the anti nuts will NEVER change until
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jun 5, 2008 7:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THEIR rights/possessions, etc are confiscated.

The anti nuts are always and only for taking away those rights and possessions of others.

Till the anti nuts lose something, they will hysterically yell and scream about confiscation of others' rights and possessions.

Unfortunately, mostly for them, the one thing they have clearly given up is the freedom of thought.

Although I own several guns of various sorts, it is seldom that I think about them.
My mind is typically focused upon the health & wellbeing of my fourfooted roommate, my work, food, golf/fishing, helping my neighbors, food, my vehicles, music and all sorts of other pursuits.
The only time I find my dander getting up is when I hear/read these hysterically uninformed attacks upon a couple of things which I own that don't take up much of my attention.

As for those weepies who talk about a hunter murdering animals, who "murders" the meat, fish, eggs and other things they purchase in a store?
One of my neighbord has a couple of little girls.
When I receive shipments of parts, they are usually packed with various sizes of bubblewrap.
This "gun nut" saves this stuff for my neighbor's kids to have fun with.
In winter, I smowblow their walk as, they don't have one & I do.
I have a 90 Y/O neighbor lady across the alley for whom I watch out daily.

Oh yes!! We "gun nuts" are terribly violent and dangerous people.

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» memememememememe ME!!! Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» given up their freedom? Posted by: YogiBear
cwmassguy
Posted by: CWmassguy on Jun 5, 2008 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Isn't the amendment's thirteen-word preamble a clear-cut indication of a militia-related purpose?"
It always seems odd to me that people argue that the militia somehow needs to have its "rights" protected under our Constitution. I have always believed that "the people" meant, well, the people. And that Rights are endowed on them and not to some gov't or semi-gov't entity.

If one starts to go down the road of restricting rights based on these narrowest interpretations of the Constitution, perhaps some day we might choose to interpret "freedom of the press" to those who own an actual printing press. Folks like O'Driscoll may find that DC will be outlawing all of their pens along with their guns.

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Those violent Canadians!
Posted by: bornxeyed on Jun 5, 2008 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
from the article:

...while the U.S. population is ten times that of that of Canada, the number of privately-owned guns in the U.S. is twenty-five times higher.
...Currently, the homicide rate in the U.S. is well over twice that of Canada...

-emphasis added.

So let me get this straight. We have 10 times the population, 25 times as many guns but only twice the per capita homicide rate? As Canada?

I've changed my mind. I'm staying here and buying a gun!

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» RE: You're just nuts! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Those violent Canadians! Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
No Canadian Teams in the Finals
Posted by: BCcovers on Jun 5, 2008 9:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess since not one team from the Great White North made it to the Stanley Cup Finals this year, this Toronto lawyer must be kind of bored.

Honestly, what does a Canadian know about our culture of individualism and fighting for our freedom. Let's face it you guys were still British subjects well into the 20th Century and are still Commonwealth members today. We in America stood up and fought for our freedom and individualism (with a bit of help from France) with our own "arms". To put it simply, our cultures are different because of our different histories. Canada could have joined our rebellion, they did not. Instead they chose to remain under the rule of the crown. That's fine, and today you do not have the individual liberities that we do. These liberties and the BOR resulted from our historical experiences as a country and makes us who we are today.

In short, we Americans don't tell you guys how to make hockey pucks, so don't worry about our gun laws. They have minimal affect on your country.

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» Minimal effect? Posted by: suprmark
» Actually, we did! Posted by: gppbear
rolling my eyes, thinking 'bout lying down on the floor to take a nap
Posted by: DaBear on Jun 5, 2008 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kinda interesting article but I've had just about enough of the "high minded" Canadians vs. the "thugish brute 'Merkaans" concept. I worship my Canadian cousins and Aunt as much as the next progressive and I'm insanely jealous of their concept of health care..it'd be nice to have what they got. I'm aim to be FIRST person in the U.S. to shoot off my mouth about how f*ckin' stoopid most 'Merkaans are and yeah, my fellow 'Merkins are some of the worst low-life scum of the earth that ever lived... it's a top-down thing.

Setting all that sleep-inducing hoohah aside, there is the substance of the article which I think several commentors here evidenced far more reason than the owning class pathetic excuses for "learn-eds" who are in the Supreme-Bench-of-Morons-Club in DC. Clearly, if one can understand grammar and actually read from time to time, the issue is a non-issue, the whackos & f*ckheads on the anti/pro "gangs" notwithstanding. Anytime someone is so obsessive compulsive about their weapons or about confiscating them from others just says to me, they need a Xanax or five or smoke a joint and STFU already.

From where I sit, I grew up in a rural area. We had guns and so did everybody else. Even though guns weren't supposed to be used against each other, on occasion they were --usually during hunting season while having "border skirmishes" with each other (well, officer, he's keepin' all them deers fer hisseff on his boss' prop'tee and that tain't fair, dammit). Being a good little rural redneck masochist I took my venison via bow and arrow. And yeah, it was a total "I got skills and you need a gun cuz you don't" kinda superiority thing. I knew friends who had handguns and used them to shoot up beer cans in the local "outdoor storage" (dump for all you city folk). It was great fun but I never saw a need to own a handgun. When we had to deal with all-too frequent thefts, a well placed arrow in the door of a feller's truck sent the necessary message (to git the f*ck outta my barn, dammit... lessen you gonna knock on my door and ask me first) but not nearly as well as a shotgun in the hand (didn't even need it loaded because everyone assumed it would be). While there was supposedly the state troopers out there, everyone in a rural area knows, you're on your own, the Staties only show up later to sort out the aftermath and tell you there's nothing they can do about nothin'.

But when I moved to the city, there was no longer any legitimate reason for a firearm. I minded my own business, Aikido was far more effective in evading violence, and the cops are still just the pigs that show up after-the-fact to tell you 'bout the right to remain silent or if you're lucky, there's nothing they can do.

If we want to regulate guns in the city, fine, lets do it, most firearms in an urban environment are fully unnecessary or impractical anyway.

I'm far more concerned that the cops and Blackwater have military hardware and are so seriously under-trained in how to deal with people at all and they are far too unstable and quick to whip out the hardware on the citizenry. With all the racism and bigotry that fills 'Merkaaners these days, we don't need more of 'em packin heat. But a small part of me keeps wanting to go back to the woods and if I do, damn sure I'll have at least two "arms" in my arsenal whether they're legal or not: a good hunting bow and at least a shotgun.

Bottom line for me is, you can outlaw all my rights, but it aint' gonna stop me from doin' what I know is right, be it carping about an appointed, obnoxious asshole posing as the President or a hardware-enhanced "reminder" to a thief to move along past my rural homestead. In this era of Bush-on-crack we people don't get much of a choice anyhow. Besides, come petrocollapse...

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A Citizen, not a subject
Posted by: throck on Jun 5, 2008 10:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 2nd amendment does not mention guns, the word is "arms". This is to give the people equal footing against the government no matter what future developments may bring to the battlefield. It has been gutted along with the rest of our rights due to the lazy, stupid slobs who refuse to stand up against the power-hungry who seek positions of leadership. We have not had equal footing with our government since the National Firearms Act of the 1930's. I find it interesting that every anti-gun law ever enacted exempts the government. They do not mean themselves, just the "little people". Witness the Lautenberg Amendment, which roughly states that "it's fine to beat your spouse as long as you have a badge." Our Constitution puts limits on the power of government, not the citizens. This one point is paramount but largely ignored. Those who promote gun bans clearly state that they are willing to kill me in order to take my property and there is no better reason than that to be armed. Now which of us is more civilized?

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For a country that's so individualist to the point of gun "ownership", it still borrows from others.
Posted by: j.w.verez on Jun 5, 2008 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We the sheeple often like to take the time to called ourselves proud Americans who are self-reliant and the best in self-defense. If that's the case, then why are we the country with the biggest and most bloated military budget and we're not talking about other issues such as shoddy education and healthcare? Why are all our guns and ammo being made in China and some of the bullets in Canada to be imported to us ungrateful souls? And why do we keep trusting outdated agencies such as the CIA to keep up "safe" when in fact they are enabling and even arming the terrorists here and abroad? Now, it's sad and bad enough that individuals who commit what may be a non-violent crime have no chance of mercy even if they invoke self-defense whereas an out of control felon who uses a firearm is able to reduce or even get acquitted whether it was really self-defense or a lie. What's worse, if a massacre occurs, the victims get blamed for not "defending themselves with guns" and yet no word on lack of enforcement standards to hold guns thieves accountable because the NRA is somehow entitled to maximize their profits. It's not that we the sheeple don't have enough firearms to defend ourselves but it's that we got too much and it's that "we gotta have more" insanity that's tearing us all apart just like our lust for oil that got us into Iraq and now possibly Iran. It's as if we're trapped in an entitlement society without realization. If and when the Chinese slave workers stand up and put an end to all this excess production of junk including guns and bullets, I hate to say it but it's going to be over. It's time to draw the line and get our priorities straight. Yes, guns and ammo can help when you might least expect it. However, I wouldn't mind some reasonable gun control measures that would actually save us taxpayers billions of dollars a year. At least that's far better than having to learn our lessons the hard way once all that slave labor and oil for manufacturing and transporting those guns and ammo dry up and sadly, this country is living on borrowed time. Unless your guns and ammo are actually made in America, you cannot claim that this country is self-reliant or that it is capable of defending itself.

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This is a human right
Posted by: shoosta on Jun 5, 2008 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The headline on Alternet today is in regards to the seemingly already planned and in gear mission by this insane administration to attack Iran. In fact, to attack that nation without the consent of Congress or the American people. Now, who do we want to have in control of all the weapons? The white house? Some nut-kabob senator, general, etc.? Why do some think that it's ok to have these fiends armed and dangerous, but not an average citizen? We, as do all sentient beings, have the right to defend ourselves - to defend and preserve our lives. Certainly any weapon can be used to cause unnecessary harm or death to another being, but it's one thing to absolutely ban the possession of weapons by everyone and quite another to ban the possession of weapons for "certain people". Who really gets to make that choice for all of us as to who gets to bear arms and who does not? The crazy people in office now? I don't want Bush or Cheney deciding that the rest of us are just too risky to trust with our own weapons.

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» RE: This is a human right Posted by: vivachavez
This will be tested
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jun 5, 2008 11:32 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately it won't be tested in court. I suspect when the economy really turns bad, we're going to get armed groups turning on the government. Some of the nuts posting here sound like they will be active participants.

The public will go after the 2nd amendment crowd much as they did the antiwar hippies of the 60s and early 70s. The public doesn't like anarchy. So when push comes to shove, the gun nuts will become victims of their own rhetoric. You'll see a huge backlash.

Yeah guys, the govt. will be taking your guns away from you. Remember the shootout at the OK Corral? That was about gun control, only it was the lawn'order Republicans doing the taking.

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citizen x
Posted by: jwc1480 on Jun 5, 2008 11:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Funny, I'm reading this article and watching "Johnnie Beinda" on tv at the same time. Ever seen it? It takes place in Canada. When a low life tries to steal the deaf girl's baby, she shoots him. These days,
she would just have to stand there and watch him walk off with her baby. You canadians want it that way, fine. But I'll kill the SOB too!

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Times Have Changed
Posted by: vivachavez on Jun 5, 2008 2:31 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Long gone are the days when America was a rural frontier nation when possession of firearms was necessary to repel against Indian attack or a foreign occupying army.

The police and military have FAR more sophisticated weapons than any available to the lay man so the game is already rigged.

And don't make the stupid and patently absurd argument that 100 million citizens armed with guns would be able to stop the US military. America is a nation of obese, lazy, apathetic morons who don't have the wherewithal to engage in a protracted armed struggle against the US military. And the fact that an armed uprising against the government would require teamwork and cooperation, which flies in the face of the values eschewed by gun nuts, those being rugged individualism and self-reliance.


And of course, there is the inconvenient truth, ignored by gun nuts, that America is a for more violent nation than its industrialized counterparts, and it certainly is not more free.

All meaningful advances in society have come through PEACEFUL protest. Do you think the Civil Rights movement would have been successful had it resorted to armed warfare against the government? OF COURSE NOT!!

Peaceful protest and civil disobedience are the only ways to achieve social change.

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Another view of the Second Amendment
Posted by: Extrano on Jun 5, 2008 4:39 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Founders intended to establish a republic; a nation with a very small standing army, but where every man is armed and on call at all times. As Aristotle commented, such a political scheme puts the rulers at the mercy of the people. The Second Amendment is admirably constructed for its intended purpose.

Most criticism of the right to keep and bear arms is the alleged link to gun crime. To refer to higher authority, Chief Inspector Colin Greenwood is recognized as an expert on gun control laws. In a report to Parliament Dr. Greenwood specifically states that NO gun control laws have ever reduced the incidence of gun related crime. This is unquestionably true.

Dr. Greenwood continues with a broad hint that violent crime may, or does, increase after such laws are enacted. This is also unquestionably true. In fact, if one cares to check Toronto's murder rate before and after the imposition of Canada's draconian gun laws you will find, like the other 11,919 laws that restrict citizens right to keep and bear arms, Toronto's ill advised gun laws have cost its citizens dearly.

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So you trust your government...we don't.
Posted by: YogiBear on Jun 5, 2008 4:58 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Canada ...handguns can only be owned by police, security officers ... Almost two-thirds of Gallup-polled Canadians, on the other hand, did not believe that the general public should be allowed to own a gun of any sort.

Considering Canada still pays homage to British royalty, that's not much of a surprise. We don't trust our police to be bastions of lethal social justice here. We watch them like hawks.

I'd prefer to take my chances on this side of the border, where most folks think that shooting is something you do with a puck.

Didn't Michael Moore point out that a greater percentage of Canadians own firearms than Americans? But they don't own even close to the same number of handguns, which are the guns we kill each other with. Easy criminal access to cheap handguns is where the problem lies.

Isn't the amendment's thirteen-word preamble a clear-cut indication of a militia-related purpose?

I think you need to read and comprehend the U.S. Constitution first. The Bill of Rights was not written to grant us rights, but to prevent government from taking them away. The right to bear arms, as any right, is a freedom one is born with. The 2nd amendment, and the other first 10 exist only as an reminder to prevent the rights from being removed.

Shouldn't the social context in which it was passed -- a fledgling nation, having spit the bit of imperial oppression and wary of replacement tyranny -- be examined in interpreting its meaning?

I think most liberals are with me on this one when I say America, by the day, seems less and less trustworthy. I doubt any reexamination will bring us to conclude we don't need protection from our government any longer.

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it's in the bible/constitution
Posted by: grmartin on Jun 5, 2008 7:21 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing like this subject to get the spit flying. It is striking how people misinterpret the 2nd amendment the way fundamentalists use antiquated quotes from the old testament that have no revelance to the modern world. I remember a hunter, who had shot a bear, being asked how he justified his action. He said the bible and the law said he could do it, so that was good enough for him. Any other consideration such as the bear's right to life or his need to take it, was clearly irrelevant. So many of these writers claim another ancient document gives them the right to have a gun, so that is good enough for them as well, current realities be damned.

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» The constitution is my bible Posted by: YogiBear
Toronto speaking for Canada .....AGAIN .....go figure!
Posted by: F.U. Charlie on Jun 5, 2008 7:34 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First I found this article contradictory. The title states its Canada's perspective yet the author later claims he does not speak for all Canadians. He sure didn't speak for me.
And I have not heard of the Gallop poll of which he refers. (it must have only been in Toronto)

Funny how the double standard grows....

If i was too say that people from Toronto are generally seen in the rest of Canada as pompous individuals who cannot see beyond the borders of their so called "great city."...that would be wrong But its seems perfectly ok for people of the same view as the author and Toronto mayor as Mr Miller to call all firearms owners in Canada,"so-called legitimate" and potential threats to public safety is not. In 1939 Germany it was called scapegoating

and how did the Banns in DC and the UK solve the gun crime problem?

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God Bless the USA!
Posted by: P8TRI8 on Jun 5, 2008 9:53 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I read drivel written in leftist/socialist papers and web sites like this from other countries I get down and my knees and thank God that my parents escaped communist Russia so I could live in America the only true Free country. I feel sorry for all the America haters in the other countries that wish they were half the country we are. All the same countries that come running for aid and money when they need help but then turn around and bash us. Sour grapes. Your welcome any time to call your governments and tell them to stop taking aid from America. Yes you to CANADA!!

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» RE: God Bless the USA! Posted by: davmills
» RE: God Bless the USA! Posted by: dr421
» RE: God Bless the USA! Posted by: sysiphus1963
Laughable, if it all weren't so sad
Posted by: tincat2 on Jun 6, 2008 12:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
another of the sheep has come forth to bleat out nonsense proclaiming the existence of an utopia out there somewhere, if we could just relieve people of their ability to defend themselves.
the second amendment had as its purpose the establishment of the right of the states to maintain militias(as a counterweight to federal power).the right to keep and to bear arms(think ability to protect and to defend oneself, especially in the relatively untamed context of the new land) needed no authority as it was seen as inherent to the status of human being. the 'right', as such, is referenced to thwart any federal attempts to backhandedly emasculate the the militias.
these clowns who constantly bemoan the dangers of gun ownership constitute a clear and present danger to the human dignity of us all. they are the enemy, make no mistake. i don't know the actual numbers, but i strongly suspect that one is in more danger from a stay in the hospital(be it u.s. or canadian) than from a gun(even in the case of those in the hands of true maniacs)

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Self-defense is a fundamental human right
Posted by: Harry Schell on Jun 6, 2008 10:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With Respect, IMO 2A is not about guns per se.

it is about the inalienable human right of self-defense, and how to make that right operative instead of a nice idea.

Read the majority opinion from the DC Circuit on Heller. Do your homework, Mr. Ignorant.

As it happens, firearms were then and are now the best means of individual self-defense from predation large or small.

The animating concept behind 2A, that you have only the rights you can defend successfully WHEN AND WHERE someone tries to take them away from you, will be as true when firearms are obsolete as it was when the Bill was written.

Ask any Zimbabwean. Or Cubano. Or North Korean. Myanamar?

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It is not an "arguable" right
Posted by: SouthernWolf on Jun 6, 2008 11:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nor is the Second Amendment badly worded. Nor does it confer upon the state or government the right to a militia. The Second Amendment, as do all the Amendments in the Bill of Rights, speaks to and guarantees the rights of "We, the People" as individuals, not as represented by the state. There is no such thing as a collective right: all rights are individual rights. There is no such thing as a forest without individual trees, and there is no such thing as a free society without individual rights. And that is the purpose of the Second Amendment: tyranny fears an armed populace. An armed populace can form militias to oppose tyranny and restore freedom. Throughout history tyrants have sought to keep the people unarmed or to disarm them with force and legalisms. In the sense of opposing tyranny "a well regulated militia" in the Second Amendment implies a free people who possess and know how to use firearms in time of need, just as a well regulated posse formed of free men and women possessing firearms might be needed to confront and apprehend criminals. The only confusion about the Second Amendment has arosen from the attempts of lawyers and legislators to infringe it.

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Irrelevant
Posted by: BobNoxious on Jun 6, 2008 12:52 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dubya says, "The Constitution's just a piece of paper."

The contents of The US Constitution are nil and void. The point of the Second Amendment was so that when (not if) the time comes to overthrow a corrupt government, The People will be able to. Our government lets us keep guns to satiate us, knowing damn well that handguns and rifles are no match for cluster bombs and napalm. Making another revolution nearly impossible.

The gun ownership debate is nothing but a distraction to keep people from thinking about the REAL issues that affect our lives. Funny how it pops up about every four years, huh? Like gay marriage and reproductive rights.

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» RE: Irrelevant Posted by: SouthernWolf
Utterly predictable...
Posted by: usdefcon on Jun 7, 2008 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tim,

As I read your article, I actually started giggling to myself. It's so predictably quasi-European/Canadian Leftist-Socialist, it's funny. It's just boilerplate Leftist stuff. It's actually not your fault that you're a Socialist/anti-self-reliance automaton. You're no-doubt the product of the Canadian school system, news, society, etc., so you've been indoctrinated over many years (since childhood) with Socialist propaganda.

It's also not your fault that you're too stupid to understand the wording of the Second Amendment and the fact that it was perfectly understandable during the time it was written. You can't be held responsible for your genetics. Your mental deficit of course only made you more susceptible to the aforementioned Socialist indoctrination you underwent.

Perhaps you can understand this, though: when reading any document (or individual sentence, for that matter) written during an earlier time in history, you have to put that document (or sentence) in its proper context, and study how language was used (spoken and written) during that time, what the culture was like, and why the document (or sentence) was written. You also have to exercise a little bit of initiative and read documents that relate to the writing of the Constitution and specifically to the Bill of Rights--documents like the Federalist Papers, for instance. Some of these related documents, like the Federalist Papers, explain the EXACT purpose of the Second Amendment and why it was written.

By the way, the Second Amendment doesn't grant us the right to bear arms, it merely states what is actually our already existing and eternal God-given right, our right under our Creator, to bear arms in order to protect our lives and freedom from those who might wish to harm and/or enslave us, i.e. an oppressive or tyrannical government.

If there's anything I can blame you for, it's being lazy and uneducated. You simply haven't done your homework on the Second Amendment and American (Colonial and U.S.) history.

So to sum up, I'm giving you a pass on being a Leftist-Socialist robot and an idiot, but I'm holding you responsible for being lazy and uneducated. That said (or, in this case, written), the latter two might not be totally your fault, either, since the Canadian school system certainly isn't going to educate any Canadian children about the true meaning and importance of the Second Amendment, nor are they or Canadian society in general going to teach you to be self reliant enough to educate yourself about anything, including American history and culture. And, initiative and self-reliance aren't really encouraged by Canadian society like they are here in America.

Understand that I write this to you even though I realize that it's most likely a waste of time and energy to do so, since it would appear that you're too dim and brainwashed to be affected by anything anyone writes to you in opposition to your argument, and your opinion is irrelevant. I do get that, but what can I say? I'm an optimist.

P.S. In case you haven't figured it out, yet, in general, none of us down here pay any real attention to you guys up there when it comes to, well, anything, because it all sounds like an incessant whine to us. That's all you guys really do: bitch and whine about how awful we we are. To us, you're like Charlie Brown's teacher's voice, just an annoying and inconsequential background noise that we just ignore.

Listen, if you think it's so dangerous down here, don't come down here, especially if you're not willing to arm yourself (Self reliance, remember?). Believe me, we won't miss you.

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» RE: Utterly predictable... Posted by: davmills
» RE: Utterly predictable... Posted by: conifergreen
» "Socialist Propaganda"? Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
The Second Amendment
Posted by: zorba1 on Jun 7, 2008 3:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And my Pursuit of happiness, I love handguns.
I do not give a darn what the Supreme court decision is, i will not give up my handguns or any of my guns.
Canada is not the USA, my guns have saved my life and my families lives several times from home break ins to asses who attemted car jacking.
I no longer hunt due to all my physical problems but i do support hunting and gun programs and i love to shoot.
I taught my kids and most of our foster kids with permission how to properly use and shoot handguns and rifles.
Except for one son and a few foster kids who were mentally unstable, did not like guns or did not get permission from social workers.
Wether or not they buy and use guns as adults is their business.
One of our foster sons went on to become a Sniper in the US Army.
I taught many of my nephews and neices also, they collectivly own hundreds of guns and some work for the CIA, FBI, Secret Service and many Police departments.
We have criminal elements and gangs in this country which forces one to be armed and prepared.
One of the major reasons the Japanese and German war machines feared invading mainland America was the fact of private American gun ownership.
Millions of guns in the hands of millions of Americans caused migrine headaches for military
planners in both empires.
The plans of both was to avoid direct invasion, hopeing for some sort of treaty untill their new weapons were mass produced and America would surrender.
The Germans were sharing a lot of their technology with the Japanese but they did not trust the Japanese.
If things had gone as planned for them the Nazi's needed the Japanese to help subdue Russia, Asia and America.
Private gun ownership in America was a major headache for the world domination plans of the third Riech.

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» RE: The Second Amendment Posted by: dr421
» RE: The Second Amendment Posted by: davmills
janice
Posted by: artsychic on Jun 7, 2008 7:59 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i believe that everyone takes from the constitution and the second amendment what he will.
I think we have forgotten something here. I think we have forgotten where these men came from and the circumstances they were dealing with that caused them to write what they wrote.
These were tumultuous times. Don't think they didn't run into a few that would have bent the constitution to allow them to do what was in their hearts to do, right or wrong.
There are passages in the bible that conflict the mind and the soul. They conflict because if a person is bent on an eye for an eye that is all he will ever make of that passage. And in like mind he will take that eye.
I think it was left for man to interpret, much like the parables.
If an entire society is given to bloodthirstiness and hatred for others without foundation then they deserve to inherit their own demise.
If they can understand what it is to love another as themselves they can pull themselves out of the quick as a hole regardless of what the government or a constitution decides...
but it takes everyone, one person at a time.
If understanding the concepts and truths of the constitution fails you it's because your understanding of right and wrong has failed you. Your understanding of the truth has failed you.
I wonder if people that were bred to be so defensive for generations can ever concieve of loving and trusting anyone. Especially when they are compelled by the government to constantly defend. Defend what? Why are you people so afraid?
You think yourselves the most powerful country on earth. I see you as cowards. Killing the (mysterious) bug before it bites.
How blind....and how cowardly...

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janice
Posted by: artsychic on Jun 7, 2008 8:36 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if you feel the need my dear..to teach everyone you know how to carry and use a gun it's because you are terrified...
and you are instilling your terror in them..
you're ridiculous..
no wonder your government was able to dupe you into believing that a billionaire (bin ladin) and cohort of the administration lay awake at night planning your demise.
Wake up! You are being controlled and managed. Wake tfu!
The government wants your guns so they can control you dear. Wake up!

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Schizoid word salad: MEGO
Posted by: 8 nontheist on Jun 7, 2008 11:14 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is one of the times when I wish that AlterNet & all other progressive sites which implicitly or otherwise solicit comments & seem to post all of the comments that they get AND all of the responses to the comments posted on their site were monitered/edited as HUFFINGTON POST monitors &/or edits comments sent to HP. I've read all of the comments & replies to comments which were posted by AlterNet as of 1:05 AM. EDT on 6/8/08.
MEGO, my eyes glaze over. Quite a few xenophobic advocates of ownership of hand guns have posted interesting screeds presented as comments on this blog or responses to the comments posted. The venom is now arm pit deep to a tall indian [1st nation person to Canadians]. Since very little logic has been added to the venom it hasn't thickened to the viscosity of 50 weight motor oil at 50 degrees f or god knows what in Celsius or centagrade which Canada uses. If logic was present-the mess of comments & responses to comments would be as thick as Canadian tar sand which could be used as a replacement for brent crude if an economical way can be found to reclaim it & refine it into gasoline, diesel & fuel oil.
You could walk over it if the temprature was below 50 degress f but the people below the surface of the mess of venom would be frozen in as prehistoric animal remains are stuck in LA's La Brea tar pits.
Has AlterNet thought of not accepting comments & responses after a time limit has passed? While some blogs on HP have 1000 & more comments-AlterNet will get & post well over 1000 comments & responses by noon, EDT on 6/9/08. HP also puts a word limit on comments & encorces it. Comments &/or responses that are off thread [like this comment will be soon] aren't posted on HP. Comments which don't meet HP editoral stds aren't posted on HP. People who don't follow HP stds are barred from commenting on HP.
I realize that HP has more editors/monitors & money than AlterNet. But don't both AlterNet & HP have band width limits too?
It will be interesting to see how AlterNet will respond to the deluge of wordy comments & responses to comments this blog will provoke. It could take a skilled speed reader 72 hours to read all that AlterNet will post re: this 2d ammendment blog.
The trolls are having a field day & the troll's paymasters will have to pay their trolls for all of the troll's comments AlterNet posts on this blog. That may prevent right wingnut trolls from commenting on other progressive sites for a month. Many trolls don't attempt to post their reactionary, alogical, venom soaked screeds to malign progressives unless they get paid on the # of words which progressive site posts. That wouldn't be a bad thing for progressive sites. This ends my off thread screed.

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Guns in defence of liberty? Come ON !
Posted by: Julian on Jun 7, 2008 11:20 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[This went off screen during preparation - my apologies if it appears twice]

During the war, when Jap criminals swept through South East Asia, Australia was under threat. In Australia there was a wealthy and well-connected nest of traitors grouped around a pro-Tokyo lobby who devised a plan, called the Brisbane Line, to set up a Vichy-style regime in south-eastern Australia under the Japs and co-operate with the Jap war effort. If ever there was a call for guns in the people’s hands it was then. In rural Australia most farmers had guns, and under Brisbane-Liner pressure the government ordered that all guns be collected. Typically, a cop would arrive at a Western Australian farm: “G’day, Bill. Those blokes in Canberra want guns collected so you won’t hurt the Japs. Y’got any firearms so I can take them away?” “No mate – I’ve got an old catapult in the shed somewhere but that’s all”. “OK Bill – best you warn the others I’m coming after their guns – don’t want to trip over them or anything.” Many years later some lowlife shot more than 50 people on holiday in a massacre at Port Arthur, Tasmania. The Howard Government immediately called up all the effective weapons in rural Australia, sawed them up and dumped them. I thought at the time (as did many) “Surely if at least one of those sitting ducks at Port Arthur had been able to blow the perp’s filthy head off a lot of lives could have been saved.” (Incidentally, there is now a powerful and well-connected pro-Jakarta lobby in Australia, which invites reflection on why the haste to call up the guns.)

And yet – how many of America’s routine massacres have been stopped by the armed populace? In my ignorance I haven't heard of one since Custer's raiders got theirs, but we could all do to be enlightened. Where are the armed militias standing ready to defend freedom against the most tyrannical government the Americans ever accepted (since they never accepted the British who were even worse)? How many armed citizens have used their guns in defence of freedom against government intrusion under phoney “war on terror” pretexts? For that matter, how do American gunshot felony offences compare with those in Canada? Or in England? Or in Australia? Or even in Lebanon for that matter? Real statistics would power an argument for or against gun control which to read the above comments seems to spring from nothing more serious than a “Me protect me” culture which would leave all those “Me first” individuals as powerless against a fascist coup in America as the hapless victims in Port Arthur were against the lone criminal.

Only armed, organised militias independent of government direction could have a hope of resisting tyranny in America by force and there is no sign of the demand for guns serving anything remotely like that. Therefore the “libertarian” calls for open slather with guns on the basis of the second amendment seems no more than hypocritical. Sorry to be joining the Canadian professor in offending the sensitivities of knuckledraggers who lack all sensitivity in decreeing regime change at gunpoint wherever the strategic prize is great enough but bristle at others speaking truth to rapidly eroding power.

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janice
Posted by: artsychic on Jun 8, 2008 5:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
how many of you are aware of the NAU and the SPP.
The SPP is being discussed and ratified behind closed doors.
If there is a disaster or heaven forbid civil unrest in america, Canadian troops would be called in to help the american forces deal with the situation. If the same thing happened in Canada U.S. forces could be deployed.
Indonesia and Australia have the same sort of agreement. The premise is that american soldiers would find it difficult to kill their own countrymen while a foreign troop may not. Your american soldiers have already been deployed here once to control Canadians.
RCMP, U.S. Army block public forum on the Security and Prosperity Partnership
linked text

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*****Guns In America****
Posted by: marrieah on Jun 8, 2008 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once upon a time people needed a gun to protect themselves. Even little old ladies learned to shoot a shotgun. That was before we had a well armed PAID militia to protect it's citizentry called the police force.
I have come to believe that those who feel the need to carry guns and 'trot' their stuff are insecure bullies who could not solve their difference in a more humane way for fear of losing an argument.
I can even understand owning a rifle if one is a hunting enthusiast, but not enough to supply an army.
At issue here is the NRA insistance that people be allowed to own assault weapons. Why in the world do we need assault weapons. Do we fear that this country will be invaded? I say fine, if you want to own rifles, but all handguns and such should be banned and anyone with one should be liable to losing all of his or her earth possessions as a fine.

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» RE: *****Guns In America**** Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: *****Guns In America**** Posted by: alicelillie
Lawyers should be required to study history.
Posted by: Kuragami on Jun 8, 2008 7:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Point in fact.

Your rights do not come from a piece of paper. Why? There is good reason for it and the founding fathers knew this well if you read their letters.

Because your basic natural rights are inalienable rights that cannot be given or taken away. If your basic natural rights were granted by a piece of paper, for example the right to challenge your imprisonment, then it can be taken away and therefore you have no such rights. Having just lived through a totalitarian rule the founding fathers understood that the concept of granting rights by paper was ultimately meaningless.

Point in fact.

When the Constitution was written some founding fathers did not even want to write a Bill of Rights and once they did they expressed regret in doing so. The reason being misunderstanding about the purpose of the Constitution. They understood before even writing the document that people reading it will think the Bill of Rights grants them whatever rights expressly mentioned in the document and none other.

They at least wrote the Constitution in a way that clearly is not speaking to the people but to the formation of the government. It is sad then to see that the government, and indeed the courts, have turned the table on this concept and perpetuates the myth that rights are derived from the Constitution.

Point in fact.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights, which is a part, is clearly written as instructions to the government, not the people. These instructions are there to limit what the government is allowed to do in a very narrow way. When you re-read the Bill of Rights you can understand the wording more clearly.

Since the Constitution was never written to be a clearing house for rights to the people the whole argument that ownership of guns are granted by the 2nd Amendment is patently false and has no basis in law.

Your rights are granted to you by Natural Law and it cannot be given or taken away. According this you have the right to keep and bear arms of any kind so long as it does not violate the Natural Rights of others. This cannot be taken away from you.

If you read the full history of the Constitution and the letters written by the founding fathers this is plainly obvious. However I don't recall this being a subject in any school at any level as it would be dangerous to the establishment.

Same goes for Canada by the way. As an English colony we ultimately fall under Common Law, Natural Law, and Natural Rights. These concepts were formulated into action against the King of England, if you read your history, and are the backbone of law that stands against a totalitarian form of governing.

These same concepts allow for Natural Person and Human Being as concepts in law both in Canada and the US and has been upheld in court since the King of England was forced to pass power to the people.

Any decent lawyer would know this, but I don't fault the author as it's not their fault. This isn't something they teach in law school. In fact this is something that is heavily suppressed at all levels of courts in both our nations.

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rn
Posted by: mnatra on Jun 8, 2008 4:41 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I used to like the Alter net and its provocative subjects,It apears more and more to be the press for the right wing fringe, gun lovin dope heads.

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» RE: rn Posted by: conifergreen
Badly worded or not...
Posted by: Archytype on Jun 9, 2008 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Badly worded or not, the fundamental point of the Second Amendment is to maintain the balance of power between the citizenry and the government.

If the Citizens (Well regulated militia) have the right to bear arms (Arms means any weapon, not just firearm, expressed explicitly or not) this prevents an abuse of power and force exerted by a government, using the ARMED SERVICES.

Both sides must respect the fact that both can have arms (of any type).

you can not argue the term 'bear arms' does not mean firearm, and by the same token call the trade in guns the "Arms Trade".

There is no debate here. So stop arguing about it.

Richard, United Kingdom - where citizens are severly restricted in their ownership of arms of many kinds, and there is NO constitutional right.

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THIS TALK DOES NOT CHANGE REALITY!!!!!
Posted by: alicelillie on Jun 11, 2008 2:25 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the talk in the world will not change the fact that guns are inanimate objects and it is what *people* do with them that is important.

A gun cannot hurt or kill any more than a roll of toilet paper can.

People are responsible for their own behavior.

Parents are responsible to keep their kids out of danger. Tiny kids need to be kept away from guns obviously, but they also need to be kept away from knives, hammers, glass objects (as they break) and whatever else they could get hurt with. We cannot ban everything.

In fact, in a free country we cannot ban or restrict anything. If the government can ban, license, require permits for, or regulate anything, it can do the same for anything and freedom is out the door.

Additionally, the Bill of Rights does not *give* rights. Individuals *have* these rights. They are natural rights, or God-given rights and the Constitution is supposed to protect rights we already have. You own your life and what you own, and without this right you are not free.

Since guns exist and you cannot wish them away, and people already have them, what can you do about that? Take them away? Last I checked that was *stealing.*

Unless you believe government officials are *better* than the rest of us, you really have to agree with me that neither guns nor anything else should be taken away.

Please see my pro-freedom blog at:

http://www.alicelillieandher.blogspot.com

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Militia
Posted by: conifergreen on Jun 11, 2008 9:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A Militia is an army made up of citizens. In the early days of the U.S.,these citizens brought their own guns and only fought for a certain amount of time as they had crops to bring in and other responsibilities. While countries have organized standing armies,these armies are made up of citizens. But if ever a country was attacked and the army started to falter, citizens should and would organize themselves into militias, bringing their own arms to the fight. The ultimate defence of a country is its citizenry, whether they create standing armies or organize in time of need into fighting forces called militias.The U.S. became a country when England became too oppresive. One only has to read the Declaration of Independence to see why they broke away. The King was a tyrant and so it became clear that the only way to resist tyrants is through arms. This lesson cannot be forgotten and if the US government today became truly tyrannical, the people MUST have the ability to force change.Otherwise, tyranny prevails and all is lost. Here in Canada, we are still living under the British tyrannical way where we are subjects and serfs, not citizens and free thinkers. We have no real freedoms. If it were not for the U.S. we would be suppressed even more. Gun owners in Canada are treated with contempt and suspicion and live under the shadow of having their guns banned and confiscated.

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It's simple really,
Posted by: Livemike on Jun 13, 2008 2:43 AM   
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it's the right of the people. Not the militia, not the government, the people. Now disingenous would be totalitarians might like to pretend that the militia part is central but it's not. Nor could it be since all rights under the constitional were recognised as "endowed by their creator" and thus not subject to the presence or abseence of a militia.

Numerous state constitutions also recognised a right to keep and bear arms, not one of them mentioned the militia, so how can the right be dependent on the militia?

Why assume that the "right" granted is the right to serve the military? When has there ever been a "right" to be made to do something?

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As a Canadian
Posted by: uncleeddie on Jun 16, 2008 4:54 PM   
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Gotta tell you guys that growing up in Canada I always thought the American obsession with guns was a little Kooky. Boy was I wrong! Cops will taser you before you can say what did I do? I now know that the founding fathers of the U.S. feared above all. Big out of control government and insisted that a well armed population would give those who intended to enslave this population something to consider. Americans are feeling the heat but Big Brother is going to feel more resistance if people can fight back. Sadly in Canada we are not even allowed tasers.

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