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Rights and Liberties

The Texas Polygamy Mess: What Will They Do With 416 Children?

By Faye Bowers, Christian Science Monitor. Posted April 17, 2008.


The forced removal of 416 children from a religious compound has set in motion a showdown between the state and a religious movement.
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By removing more than 400 children from a religious compound in Texas earlier this month, state authorities carried out one of the largest mass removals of minors from their parents in the country. They also set in motion a future face-off between the state and a religious movement that seeks to live in a closed society, making oversight difficult if not impossible.

Those 416 children are now in state protective custody near Eldorado, Texas, where the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) owns the secluded, 1,691-acre Yearning for Zion ranch. One-hundred-thirty-nine women, who willingly left the compound, are with the children.

For the children, the next step comes this Thursday, when state Judge Barbara Walthers has scheduled a hearing to determine if they all should remain in the custody of the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS) for a longer period of time, perhaps permanently.

What comes after that depends on whether the state's investigation results in criminal charges against any of the adults at the FLDS compound. Court documents, in which Texas sought judicial approval to search the Yearning for Zion ranch and to take temporary custody of the children, state that many of the men had multiple wives and that several girls younger than 16 were either pregnant or already mothers as a consequence of a "spiritual marriage" to an older man. Texas law prohibits polygamy and marriages before 16 years of age.

The case is a potentially thorny one in which Texas will have to take care not to violate the First Amendment rights of the church and, thus, jeopardize any future prosecution. The same holds true for any federal case that may be brought: FBI agents have taken part in the search of the ranch, possibly to determine whether underage girls were transported across state lines, between FLDS compounds in Arizona and Texas, for illegal purposes.

Experts say the issues are as complicated as any they've seen, but most agree that religious freedoms do not trump the rights of children to a safe and secure environment.

"The state was absolutely within its rights to take these children," says Marci Hamilton, an expert on church-state issues at the Cardozo School of Law in New York. "There is no religious defense to child abuse and no problem with the separation of church and state when the state stays focused on the abuse."

In addition to the civil action of taking custody of the minors, the state is likely to press criminal charges in this case, says Ellen Marrus, codirector of the Center for Children at the University of Houston's Law Center. "When there are so many children, so many [alleged] atrocities involved, the state is likely to bring criminal charges against the individuals causing harm," she says.

The mass removal was triggered by phone calls on March 29 and 30 from a 16-year-old girl named Sarah to a local shelter, according to court papers. She said she was seeking help for her and her 8-month-old child to escape the Texas ranch. According to court documents, Sarah said that her parents brought her to the ranch three years ago and that about two years later she was "spiritually married to an adult male member of the church," becoming his seventh wife. Sarah went on to say that her husband had physically and sexually abused her.

The DFPS subsequently obtained a court order to investigate, and on April 3 through 7 carried out a broad search and removed the children.

Court documents show that while investigators searched the ranch for Sarah, they found girls under 16 who were either pregnant or already mothers, including a 16-year-old who had four children. The documents allege a widespread practice of church elders arranging so-called spiritual marriages of girls once they reached puberty. Spiritual marriages are not legal unions in Texas.

Attorneys for the FLDS have so far filed a motion to keep some documents seized at the compound private, asserting that divulging their contents would "violate the clergy-penitent and attorney-client privileges and infringe upon the first amendment rights of the church and its members." But the judge declined to grant the request.

Calls to Gerald Goldstein and Cynthia Orr, FLDS attorneys, were not returned.

"The primary struggle is not so much a struggle with the church but with the church members whose children have been removed," says Paul Bennett, director of the child advocacy clinic at the University of Arizona's College of Law in Tucson.

An arrest warrant has already been issued for the husband of 16-year-old Sarah. He is reportedly in Arizona, where more members of the FLDS reside on the border with Utah.

Arizona officials revealed last week that they'd received a call from a 16-year-old in Colorado City, Ariz., within a week of Sarah's call to Texas authorities. Arizona officials say they went to a Colorado City home but were unable to verify any details of the phone call.

The states of Arizona and Utah have prosecuted several FLDS members in recent years, most prominently Warren Jeffs, the sect's leader. He is serving two consecutive sentences of five years to life in Utah for serving as accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old and he now awaits trial in Arizona on similar charges.

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This says it all...
Posted by: Sy Ence on Apr 17, 2008 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Experts say the issues are as complicated as any they've seen, but most agree that religious freedoms do not trump the rights of children to a safe and secure environment."

'Nuff Said.

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» RE: This says it all... Posted by: EinMD
» RE: This says it all... Posted by: Livemike
couldn't we just execute the children?
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Apr 17, 2008 7:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it IS texas, after all . . .

of course in a few years they'll be ready to be offered up to the military/industrial complex.

either way it's win-win!

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Religious Wacko Lexicon
Posted by: EinMD on Apr 17, 2008 7:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So what precisely does 'spiritually married' mean?

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» RE: eligious Wacko Lexicon Posted by: Libertine
» RE: Religious Wacko Lexicon Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: Religious Wacko Lexicon Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: eligious Wacko Lexicon Posted by: Livemike
» RE: eligious Wacko Lexicon Posted by: wolfgangmo75
» RE: eligious Wacko Lexicon Posted by: Livemike
stupid people
Posted by: bigbobbyg on Apr 17, 2008 10:11 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
some people are dumber then others. if you notice on TV then fox network hosts 2 series that shows child abuse drug abuse and just last night one of them showed people that under age sex is OK if you really love each other. if you haven't figured it out the two shows I'm talking about are Simpsons and Family Guy. if you watch then you will notice repeated child abuse, drug abuse, sex referential and other such crap. I'll bet that if you ask anybody from the FLDS if they watch these shows they will say NO. these shows are targeted towards young minds that will do what they see on TV parents choking the kids and such forth. the FLDS are NOT the stupid ones here. the state of Texas is. the state should not be able to force children out of there peaceful homes and force them to live in our 'normal' world where drugs mindless sex rape, child abuse and teen suicide are all present. if you look at the FLDS i am willing to bet that the crime rate, teen suicide rate, and drug rates are all practically zero, zilch, Nada 0% in that society. i say put this on the news and lets see what they have to say about it. also if you look at it then you will see that teen suicide, gang violence, gang rape, and drug use percents all rose dramatically the same year that Bibles were banned from the school. but alas our government omits what they want resulting in the phrase heard around the world. "separation of church and state" but what many don't know is that is only a small potion of that speech. if you read the whole thing you will find that is NOT what it was referring to. our nation was founded on religious freedom. if we take away our foundation as a country the only ones that will fall is US. the USA can't last without its spiritual foundation. look at the world around you, what have we become to resort to forcing children to live in a society that refuses religious freedom? what have we become? what have we become to resort to such extremes? what have we become? ask yourself this and decide. when the fathers of this country first landed here, 100% of the population believed in God. now it not quite that much. i say if you can't accept our beliefs then you might as well accept a boat ride to Europe where we don't have to deal with you and you don't have to deal with us. i DEMAND religious freedom from our country. i DEMAND to returned to the foundation of this country. its RELIGIOUS foundation. i DEMAND THAT YOU GIVE THOSE CHILDREN A FREEDOM OF CHOICE, A FREEDOM OF SPEECH, I DEMAND YOU GIVE THOSE CHILDREN THE CONSTITUTION. I demand that you leave those alone that would leave you alone.

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» RE: stupid people Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: stupid people Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: stupid people Posted by: Livemike
» RE: stupid people Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: stupid people Posted by: logos7
» Cults in UTAH Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: stupid people Posted by: emmas
» RE: stupid people Posted by: Livemike
» RE: stupid people Posted by: wireup
» RE: stupid people Posted by: free woman
» RE: stupid people Posted by: society
» I feel you need help!! Posted by: donl51
» RE: stupid people Posted by: Colourless Green Ideas
» RE: stupid people Posted by: popsicle67
» Rewriting History Posted by: clthompson
» RE: ewriting History Posted by: paganpat
» RE: stupid people Posted by: dronkenpiraat
» RE: stupid people Posted by: Intellect
Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Apr 18, 2008 2:13 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are other people's lifestyle decisions really any of our business?

See the red button your remote?

Push it.


Direct Democracy

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» RE: I think you're thinking of... Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: yes Terrorist Posted by: donl51
What to do with 416 children? Simple
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Apr 18, 2008 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just dope them up with ritalin and prozac and set them in front of a tv so they never learn why, a dollar will be worth at most 36 cents by the time they are adults... (if they ever really make it to adulthood.) Then they can be good liitle slaves who will choose between Hillary and Obama.

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» Well, well. . . Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: Well, well. . . Posted by: bigbobbyg
marytheprez
Posted by: marythe prez on Apr 18, 2008 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This bunch of cowards know their 'beliefs' have absolutely nothing to do with religion. It is about power, child abuse, child rape and hiding all these crimes behind a 'temple'.
"spiritual marriages" is another way of saying...'now that these young girls have reached puberty, they are now my property. I can 'marry' them and rape them forever.
The women are totally brainwashed, abused, live in fear that one wrong move and they will be beaten or worse.
The pictures of those 'bedrooms' for the children were shocking...no toys, no pictures, not even a Bible, and they portray total sadness. The women who returned to the 'compound' are so terrified, so programmed to stand and repeat the Warren Jeffs/Merrill Jeffs line of faux love. Not once did you hear them say they wanted to leave and be with their children.
The abuse, slavery, and crimes has continued for years. And this is not a 'religion'. It is just like Waco, just like Jim Jones.
These evil bastards must be stopped.

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» RE: marytheprez Posted by: appleton14
» RE: marytheprez Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: marytheprez Posted by: Resistance
Ban marriage under 16, only teenage prostitution is OK?
Posted by: mtodorov_69 on Apr 18, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We know that many influential people make a considerable consumption of teenage prostitutes, and it is exactly them apparently who will most bitterly attack teenage wives.

Surely, we are bound to give women the benefit of the educational system that will fill their first, most productive part of their fertile life (15 to 25) with STD and abortions, and then have them work until 30 or 35 until they can afford a child, and then have one maybe two risky pregnancies with possible malformed fruit of the womb.

Do you see something insane in this, or is it only me?

The consequence is the demise of the retirement system, when there will be more elderly than their kids who should support them to live until ripe age. Certainly Western medicine is not going to cure them for free, and neither will GOP feed them from anything but the garbage containers.

This system works only apparently. Children are a blessing, not a lump of tissue that is making woman ugly and hence should be removed surgically.

This child hating and maternity hating civilization with its thin barren models as role model of beauty has come to its rooftop and it can only go down. The planet can support only that much of American style of life, and it will suffocate from more.

We simply may not have to work that hard to buy more expendable low quality goods that will will garbage depos in few months.

Living in a time of a generation that has turned all Earth's wealth into pile of toxic waste in one lifetime, I can't feel but shame.

I sew torn sox and underware, rather than just filling the waste disposal. Sustainable development is the key word.

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» In Africa Posted by: Prairie Waif
IT'S ABOUT TIME
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Apr 18, 2008 7:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This practice has gone on for a long time under the guise of religion to give it rights under the Constitution. The party is over and it's time we cut their funding. No more Welfare, Medicaid, tax breaks for openers. They are able to live this lifestyle because they are supported by the tax payers. I prefer to support them in jail. That's where they belong. The children will be adopted and allowed to grow up in the real world. They won't miss the old one. Thanks, ANNA

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» RE: IT'S ABOUT TIME Posted by: bigbobbyg
» RE: IT'S ABOUT TIME Posted by: logos7
Crazy FLDS supporters
Posted by: free woman on Apr 18, 2008 7:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is sending out all these crazy people that defend the FLDS cult? They arrive in mass to comment on every article that outlines exactly how this cult has systematically broken the law and violated human rights? I don't know anyone in the real world that I live in that thinks the children of this cult should not be removed. All these idiots get online and say our society is evil and all women who are in the real world and educated are evil and just like the women on "Desparate Housewives". That educated women are "bad", that these raped brain-washed little girls "love" their rapists. WTF????? Where are these peopel being sent from? I am an educated, married woman. I am not a prostitute, I don't know any prostitutes; I live in middle class America where people work hard and don't rape little girls as a religious practice. I want to know who has organized these insane people who go online and say the FLDS child abusers are right and "with God" and everyone else, especiall women who are free, educated, and living a decent life (in most cases married to a man that has only one wife, and actually respects her as a person, as she respects him); are pure evil?????

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» RE: Crazy FLDS supporters Posted by: bigbobbyg
» RE: Crazy FLDS supporters Posted by: emmas
» RE: Crazy FLDS supporters Posted by: logos7
Well we could eat them !
Posted by: donl51 on Apr 18, 2008 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
or better yet ,let their real parents raise them outside the confines of that cult, and those w/o,find good homes just don't turn them over to DYFS ,thats the worst cluster fuck for a child I could imagine!!Think the Fed. did a bang up job on this one,as usual!!Do we really need FED's? the reg. cop does all the good work and the FED' is the glory hound!! The only FED .I ever liked was the x-files and thats not real!

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One more time - because I live near Bountiful
Posted by: stellabloo on Apr 18, 2008 8:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to say: yes and 1000x yes, this is child abuse!!!
At first the granny dresses seem quaint but harmless ... but then you start to look into the eyes of the little 7-8 yr old girls, especially the cute blondes ones. They know what is going on.
There is a cry for help happening in those eyes but our local politician has received thousands in campaign contributions from that fat bastard Blackmore (as seen on Larry King blandly defending his "lifestyle" as being superior somehow to adultery, which, last time I checked, was also automatic grounds for divorce) and his brothers. Can you guess why our government is so non-committal?
My number one question is: what happened to the right of a child to an education?
The FLDS children have no choice, not only because of forced marriage, but most will never receive a basic high school education. The FLDS government-funded schools here teach only home economics and religious indoctrination. The school motto is "Be sweet" .... ack! Blackmore's senior wife left finally to give her daughter a chance at a life. At least she had her midwifery skills to support herself!
I have daughters too - most parents want to tell their children that the world is full of possibilities ... some tragic, yes, but what happened to the cherished childhood dreams of being an astronaut, a cowboy, a doctor, etc ????
If kids want to drop out, if their family life is down the toilet - a few rugged individuals manage to survive all that and become better humans for their experience.
There are sad statistics on teenage pregnancy, but at least there is the illusion of choice at some point.
You don't get any chances when you are not only young and ignorant, but also have 3 or 4 or 5 children to support with no education. That is why the women are little better than sex slaves. Religious freedom my ass - we are all free to believe what we want but why do we have the right to force our children into servitude?

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» Stellabloo is 100% Right! Posted by: Maxwell House
I am glad I am not a child welfare worker in Texas
Posted by: chaoslegs on Apr 18, 2008 8:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to CDF (pdf), the number of kids in foster care in Texas in FY 2005 was 22,191, so this is about 2% of the total number of kids in foster care.

And Schleicher County only has 3,000 people, so these children will have to be dispersed through out Texas.

Besides plain numbers, a big questions is do you place the infants with their minor birth mothers who I assume are also being taken into foster care. If you do, are you risking perpetuating the cycle of abuse?

While there is much to make fun of Texas about, you have to admit that this is a challenging situation that could put pressure on their child welfare system, and they previously had Katrina refugees to deal with. So besides the fact that they destroyed our country by letting that idiot get to the White House, they have also stepped up to the plate to help Katrina refugees.

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i think that maybe you should look at this
Posted by: bigbobbyg on Apr 18, 2008 9:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How Often Does a Teenager in Texas Get Pregnant? * Every 10 minutes, a teen in Texas gets pregnant. * Every 10 hours, a 14-year-old teen gets pregnant. * Every 3 hours, a 15-year-old teen gets pregnant. * Every 1.5 hours, a 16-year-old teen gets pregnant. * Every 52 minutes, a 17-year-old-teen gets pregnant. * Every 35 minutes, an 18-year-old teen gets pregnant. * Every 28 minutes, a 19-year-old teen gets pregnant. What are the Outcomes? * Every 10 minutes a teen gives birth. * Every 48 minutes a teen has an abortion. TEXAS Thats stats off of your own website http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/famplan/tpp.shtm yet their younger brothers and sisters don't get takin away from their parents.
when they say everything in texas is bigger, they also mean the government scandals and raids like this. lets put a stop to nazism. unless you all think that texas being the new germany is ok. as for me i don't think that is ok. look it up and yes this country was founded on christian faith. why did they come here in the first place then? if not religious freedom then what? i don't care if it's kind of hard to read a full paragraph of 'ranting' I'm a writer and I'm going to write what's on my mind and I dont care what you think. because I'm going to use my freedom of speech untill I die.

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» Control or Neuter your "pets" Posted by: Prairie Waif
Polygamy? What is the government damn business
Posted by: aamer923 on Apr 18, 2008 9:57 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is polygamy a crime What is their damn business.

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Hit them where it hurts most
Posted by: ciccio on Apr 18, 2008 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would propose a very simple solution to this. DNA tests for everybody. That will tell exactly who fathered whom, go back through all the records, see what welfare, food stamps and medicare was given to whom, charge the fathers for all of it. Since the property is held communally,make the community pay. Jail them for welfare fraud and failing to pay child support, the whole religious aspects can be ignored.

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» RE: Hit them where it hurts most Posted by: Prairie Waif
» Everybody knows Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Hit them where it hurts most Posted by: wittler youth
For Many, Fathers Unknown and No Birth Certificates
Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 18, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For many of these children, reportedly, the fathers are unknown. Many are not locatable by DNA either since many "fathers" had moved off the cult compound. Also, many of the children do not even have birth certificates. As for those who defend them, this group is a cult, pure and simple. Living behind walls to insulate themselves from the outside was a means to help justify their lifestyles. As for having sex with children and so-called "spiritual marriage," just how does any girl below the age of 18 (at a minimum) commit to such a thing? Especially in a cult community, the differences in status and power alone put such a girl at a tremendous disadvantage. CNN ran a story about one young girl who grew up in such a cult, she later turned to prostitution and drugs to survive. The state of Texas did what had to be done. Perhaps this will serve as a "wake up call," about these types of groups.

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» Their fathers Jeebus Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Their fathers Jeebus Posted by: Intellect
The American Thing to Do IS:
Posted by: Mexitli on Apr 18, 2008 11:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Steal them from their parents and adopt them out.

That's what you do. So where is the controversy? Why the article? Just stamp it, dammit.

lol

Like putting whites males in dungeons (concrete tombs), buried alive so that you can prove you dont just do it to blacks and injunz (including Mexicans).

Mexitli

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» Another Crime, Another Article Posted by: Prairie Waif
This Christian Science article on alternet is your best commentary available on the Eldorado raid?
Posted by: logansafi on Apr 18, 2008 11:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here we go again. 'Liberal' Alternet is just determined to white wash this government abuse of these children and their parents, it seems? And we have, once again, the official government excuse that it was just responding to a 16 year old girl's plea for help, too. What crap!

This was an anonymous call from somebody, but the government doesn't seem to know Who? Are do they?

It seems that out in Colorado they are arresting a 33 year old woman for quite probably having made the by now famous phone call. Why doesn't alternet follow that story instead of reprinting nonsense from The Christian Science Monitor?

See The Denver Post report... Prank calls from a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman may be linked to the raid at a West Texas polygamist compound, Colorado Springs Police say.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_8965600

and

Woman arrested in Colorado Springs questioned by Texas Rangers

http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=90138

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How Can A CHILD Make An Informed Choice About SEX?
Posted by: Maxwell House on Apr 18, 2008 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Answer: They can't. That's why adults are supposed to PROTECT children until they have matured and been educated enough to make decisions for themselves. But if the child is not protected, and not given any kind of education or information, and is forced into a "spiritual marriage" (rape and slavery), then how is that a choice? And if the husband goes into disfavor with the sect, then his wives and chldren are just given to other men? Do we call that a choice, too?

As for the person who listed the number of teenagers preggers in Texas- that's Shrub's fault. Had to do away with sex education, didn't want those kids learning about sex or choosing to be safe from STD's and AIDS by using condoms or other birth control, ya know. Anyone with half a brain knows that teenage (and all) pregnancies go down when kids are properly educated about the FACTS OF SEX. Not the religious aspect of it; that's what church is for. School should teach the scientific facts of sex. Parents are in charge of the moral aspect. Then as the child becomes an adult, they can take from all this information and make their own educated choices.

Of course, the children in the sex sect had no education at all, except for how to become a slave.

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What about the well being of the children?
Posted by: logos7 on Apr 18, 2008 11:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Children of cults, religious communities, ghettos, middle class mammas who love their children as well as those who kill them, should all be treated with respect, and have their best good considered. They should not be treated as mass criminals. Their parents should have their best good considered as well. Not everyone is an "educated" middle class person living in my community or yours. All of these children deserve a chance. I would be surprised if every single one of these women "deserve" to lose their children.

Some years back certain groups had their children systematically removed from their homes. No good came of it. While I think that the Texas system believes it is doing the best thing, I must question their ability to do so. They started off by sending police in full riot gear to collect the children. Then they placed them in "protective" custody. Most of us know that "protective" custody can be scary for children.

There are so many factors to consider. Most of our comments are so judgemental and subject to our personal prejudices. I have seem children taken from their parents in the Los Angeles area. Most of them are sent to the streets at age eighteen thinking that a "meat sandwich" is a good meal. Many wind up in jail. Those placed in group homes are worse off in many instances. In some of the foster homes, the men involved molest the little girls (and sometimes the boys. This is not just my opinion. I have seen foster parents who make a living having foster children placed in their homes. These children are not usually shown any love. You need to see them for yourself.

The situation in Texas is not good. Someone needs to find out how to make it better, not just exchange one set of horrors, if indeed their current situation is a horror, for another.

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Enlist them all in VISTA USA or Habitat for Humanity...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 18, 2008 11:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Enlist them all in VISTA USA or Habitat for Humanity or California Conservation Corps.. and give them some skills and perspective...

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truth takes precedence
Posted by: luzmejor on Apr 18, 2008 11:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Religious belief" that is used to justify enslavement is illegal in every religion.

If religious belief is contrary to the Bill of Rights, it must yield to American law.

And now, having exercised their presumed "right" to disobey US laws, perhaps these are the people who should be investigated, instead of law-abiding immigrants.

I would really like to know why I have not heard any questioning of the decision to remove and incarcerate the women and children, instead of the perps, who are definitely these old male lechers.

I don't believe that either Jews or Christians of any sect believe that sexual or any other kind of abuse of children is acceptable for any reason.

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Only if you do not consider Native Americans human beings
Posted by: mdwoade on Apr 18, 2008 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The American government(and the Canadian government)for many years kidnapped "Indian" children and put them in boarding schools to try to eradicate their culture and heritage.

The Texas children will not be beaten if they try to speak their own language or wear their own clothes. These Texas children will not be separated from people of their own race and culture. Wrong is wrong, but what we as a country did to the non-Whites we found on "our land" is just a tad more extreme.

Of course, if you do not consider Indians to be human beings, this was never a problem; and many people considered them "godless heathen savages" ("the only good Indian is a dead Indian").

The difference, of course, is that the Indian policy was a federal program that lasted decades. There is such a magnitude of difference that you probably forgot to mention those Native Americans.

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Why is it that when I hear something unbelievable or stupid in the news
Posted by: Ellie1 on Apr 18, 2008 2:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it is always Florida or Texas? Is it the water? Inbreeding? Stupidity?

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» RE: Simple! Posted by: yale
In red mans land
Posted by: wittler youth on Apr 18, 2008 2:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
by 'Francis e. leupp' says it all..the book put out in 1914..shows the re-education of indian children..full of rare pics of the time period..look for it in your rare book section..or a flea mkt.

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» RE: In red mans land Posted by: Intellect
Husband??
Posted by: sf76 on Apr 18, 2008 3:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe that you use the word husband, in this article, to refer to a rapist who has horribly abused this poor child named Sarah. Why go so easy on him?

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» RE: Husband?? Posted by: Livemike
Random thoughts...
Posted by: onevoter on Apr 18, 2008 6:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some random thoughts.....

Why didn't they remove all the men, since they are the ones using their penises as weapons?
Leave the women with their children, take all the men and get DNA samples from every one of them. Hell, let's waterboard 'em until they fess up who they've been bonin'!

What happened to the boys? Reports are that they are forced into labor on construction projects obtained through "low-bids", then forced out/kicked out once they are teenagers. Can't have any competition for those young "brides".

Isn't it statutory rape to impregnate a minor? What is the age of "consent"? Is that consent freely given?
If it's statutory rape to impregnate a minor, then what about all the other teens having babies in Texas? Shouldn't those "baby daddys" be prosecuted as well?

I personally don't care how many consenting adults choose to have sex or cohabitate with each other. Honestly, the government has no business in bedrooms, as long as all the players have freely consented to the relationship. Children are a different story.

What about education laws? Texas is notorious for having little to no standards or oversight for "home-schooling". Some parents take their kids out of public school and claim that they will be home-schooled, when they don't have a clue how to educate a child.

How about we use Bu$h's "ranch" in Crawford as a place to house some of these victims? W hardly uses it anyway; he didn't even have the "ranch" until he decided to run for prez. And, once he's out of office, he and Laura plan to live in Dallas-probably Highland Park again.

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» RE:Exactly my first reaction! Posted by: GrannyBgood
THE DIFFICULTY OF PROSECUTING ON THE POLYGAMY FRONT
Posted by: PacificGatePost on Apr 18, 2008 10:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The authorities have enough difficulty dealing with the abuses of polygamy without also having to be chastised for their methods of getting to the facts. They appear to have handled this situation with extreme care.

POLYGAMY - HIDING IN THE SKIRT OF RELIGION

... and nice move on the DNA analysis. Now let's hope British Columbia takes the same action against Bountiful.

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God
Posted by: sp00n67 on Apr 19, 2008 11:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm so proud to be in a Country where we all stand up to Human rights violations in other Countries by selling them weapons while complaining if someone else does the same.
Even Hitler didn't treat his own people the way Americans are being denied the basics.
We sheep will protest abortion, the olimpics in China but have no backbone to stand up and fight for our rights which are all but gone.
The end is near enjoy the weather.

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why not ask the kids what they want?
Posted by: alphaeagle on Apr 19, 2008 1:18 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do not agree with their(flds)beleifs, but, I strongly believe that we should not force our beliefs on them, or the rest of the world, that would be like forcing the Amish to live with modern conveniences for which they shun.

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Appalling; Mob Rules, Civil Rights Need Not Apply
Posted by: gazooks on Apr 19, 2008 7:31 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've come to expect a reasonably thoughtful and relatively intelligent forum of comments on Alternet, lacking to a measurable degree a Springeresque vitriol, venomous abusiveness, irrational and mindless bias and the unrestrained emotional regurgitation of moral self righteousness. It's a stunning pity and a shame for anyone with supposedly broad views and progressive sensibilities to witness the hysteria of mob mentality revealed in this issue.

I find the numerous expressions of willingness to abandon the sense of need to holding governmental authority to account for this grotesque transgression of civil liberties and constitutional protections of due process.

In Procedural Due Process the government is required to follow fair procedures in both criminal and civil cases in order to safeguard the individual against the power of the state. It's primary to the law despite evidence to the contrary in this administration's Justice Department.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Due Process Clause requires the government to comply with certain standards in criminal cases BEYOND the rights specifically mentioned in the Bill of Rights, which includes the right to a presumption of innocence.

The Court also ruled in the case of In re Gault (1967) that juveniles were entitled to some of the same procedural rights as adults.

The fourth Amendment states;

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, SUPPORTED BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the PERSONS or things to be seized.

Therefore, the Fourth Amendment requires that searches and seizures must be reasonable, and that warrants for searches and arrests must be SPECIFIC.

The Fourteenth Amendment states;

... nor shall any State deprive any person of life, LIBERTY, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the EQUAL protection of the laws.

This would include, by the way, the Colorado Springs woman, a 33 year old, who's been arrested for the bogus complaint call that precipitated this egregious abuse of law enforcement.

There have been many comments deriding "defenders of polygamy" and accusing others of not caring for the plight of the children involved. But the advocacy of abandoning the protections designed specifically to prevent this exact type of hysterical legal reaction to a situation, without constitutional considerations to all does a disservice not only to these children, but to all American children and every American citizen past, present and future.

The name calling and accusations are appalling, the disregard for the Bill of Rights is frightening.

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The word is "Patriarchy"
Posted by: eyejam on Apr 20, 2008 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion (with very few exceptions--Wicca, maybe?) is a strictly patriarchal structure. Add to that the super-sized patriarchal vision that is practiced by cults such as FLDS and you have a system that subjugates women and children to a practical servitude. There is no way for a girl to achieve any semblance of civil rights or liberties under this system. ONLY if WOMEN (not children) were to enter these cults entirely of their own volition (which is ever arguable) without parental (or peer or institutional) pressure of any kind could these communities have any legal justification. The truth is these communities would never survive in a free system; They need their concentration camp style patriarchy to even exist.

If God is indeed a just god then the FLDS be damned.

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» RE: The word is "Patriarchy" Posted by: alachuagreen
Interesting whatever the result becomes
Posted by: Intellect on Apr 21, 2008 7:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will be very interesting to see what the solution for this becomes as the precedents set in law may be applicable to other Christian fundie cults even if polygamy is not involved.

Home schooling or failure to educate children to state standards?

Indoctrination of children?

Child abuse in one form or another?

Housing of a cult's minor children outside of society?

Tax exemption or share in "faith based" government support?

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Child abuse, statutory rape, incest, rape, assault and battery
Posted by: janvdb on Apr 23, 2008 4:10 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's what this is about.

These girls are raped, statutorily or forcibly, imprisoned, threatened, controlled, locked in, denied food, beaten and controlled in every way.

The boys are undereducated, subjected to illegal child labor, denied freedom of choice of work, underpaid, beaten, psychologically abused and, 90% of the time, evicted from their childhood home at age 14 to 16, pushed out to hitchhike along the freeway looking for a doorway to sleep in for the sin of representing a sexual alternative to the hideous old men who keep their sisters upon whom to prey sexually.

All the while, any child who expresses their pain at all this abuse are told they are evil, sinful, worthless, hated by God and doomed to die in sin and suffer in hell forever for their "rebellious" behavior.

Meanwhile, the entire animalistic pediphilia-camp is underwritten by our welfare and food stamp dollars.

Filthy. Disgusting. Wrong. Unacceptable. Sick. Perverted. Revolting. Nasty.

To. Be. Stopped.

These people give other religious peoples who look and live somewhat like them, such as Mennonites, the Amish, the Hutterites and members of the "No Name" or "Two-By-
Two Church" (which is embraced by most members of my father's extended family) a bad name.

They dress in a similar fashion and wear their hair up a lot like most figures from my childhood. They abuse and defame the good reputation and high respectability of most people who "look like that" as a screen behind which they can get away with molesting children.

THEY ARE PERVERTS!!!!

They bring all such similar-looking sects under suspicion because they use the respectable-looking demeanor and style of these good people as a cloak behind which they indulge in sexual perversion, rape of children and other disgusting acts.

STOP THEM! PROTECT THESE CHILDREN!

These are not religious people~! These are child molesters~!!

Jan VanDenBerg

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kkessler
Posted by: kkessler on Apr 24, 2008 9:04 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How sad that we think it is ok to remove children from their families because of their beliefs. How many underage girls have sex each year with older men just for the fun of it? These people really believe that it is the only way to their salvation. Who are we to say they are wrong? Did even one of the women or girls complain of mistreatment? We are forced to live in a world where we are told that being gay is ok and acceptable but the families in Texas are bad or wrong? What a shame.

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