COMMENTS: 712
The Dangerous Atheism of Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris
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I flew to Los Angeles in May of 2007 to debate Sam Harris, the author of The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, in UCLA's cavernous Royce Hall. I debated Christopher Hitchens, who wrote God is Not Great, two days later in San Francisco. I paid little attention, until these two public debates, to the positions of the new atheists, writers that also include Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennet. Those are many people of great moral probity and courage who seek meaning outside of formal religious structures, who reject religious language and religious ritual and define themselves as atheists. There are also many religious figures that in the name of one god or another sanctify intolerance, repression and violence. There is nothing intrinsically moral about being a believer or a nonbeliever.
These New Atheists attack a form of religious belief many of us hate. I wrote a book called American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America. I am no friend of Christian radicals. We dislike the same people. We do not dislike them for the same reason. This is not a small difference.
The New Atheists embrace a belief system as intolerant, chauvinistic and bigoted as that of religious fundamentalists. They propose a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason. The utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being, the idea that we are moving towards collective salvation, is one of the most dangerous legacies of the Christian faith and the Enlightenment. Those who believe in the possibility of this perfection often call for the silencing or eradication of human beings who are impediments to human progress. They turn their particular good into a universal good. They are blind to their own corruption and capacity for evil. They soon commit evil, not for evil's sake but to make a better world.
I started Harris' book when it was published but soon put it aside. His facile attack on a form of religious belief I detest, his childish simplicity and ignorance of world affairs, as well as his demonization of Muslims, made the book tedious, at its best, and often idiotic and racist. His assertion that the war in the former Yugoslavia, for example, was caused by religion was ridiculous. I was in the former Yugoslavia, including in the Bosnian capital Sarajevo when it was under siege, as the Balkan bureau chief for the New York Times. While religious institutions and their leaders enthusiastically signed on for the slaughter directed by ethnic nationalist leaders in Zagreb, Belgrade and Sarajevo, religion had nothing to do with the war.
The war had far more to do with the economic collapse of Yugoslavia than religion or ancient ethnic hatreds. His assertion that Muslim parents welcome the death of children who die as suicide bombers -- or that suicide bombers are the logical result of a belief in Islam -- could have been written only by someone who never sat in the home of a grieving mother and father in Gaza who has just lost their child. I did not take Harris seriously. This was a mistake.
I was raised in a church where my father, a Presbyterian minister, spent his career speaking out, often at some personal cost, in support of the civil rights movement, the Vietnam anti-war movement and the gay rights movement. The religious figures I knew, and the ones I sought to emulate when I was a seminarian at Harvard Divinity School, included Dr. Martin Luther King, Dorothy Day, the Rev. William Sloan Coffin, the Salvadoran Archbishop Oscar Romero and Father Daniel Berrigan. It was possible to admire these men and women and what they stood for, and hold in little regard institutional religion. It was possible to find in the Christian faith meaning and purpose while acknowledging the flaws in the Christian system and rejecting the morally indefensible passages in the Bible.
The institutional church has often used its power and religious authority to sanctify cruelty and exclusion. The self-righteous smugness and suffocating piety of religious leaders, along with the habit of speaking on behalf of people they never meet, are characteristic of many liberal and conservative churches. The church often likes the poor but doesn't like the smell of the poor. I graduated from seminary and decided, largely because of my distaste for the hypocrisy of the church, not to get ordained. I left the United States to report on the conflicts in Central America. I rarely go to church now, and when I do, often roll my eyes at the inanity of the sermons and the self-righteousness of many of the congregants, who appear to believe they are "honorary" sinners.
The liberal church, attacked by the atheists as an ineffectual "moderate" religion and by the fundamentalists as a "nominal" form of Christianity, is, as their critics point out, a largely vapid and irrelevant force. It may not support the violent projects of apocalyptic killing championed by atheists such as Harris or Hitchens and these Christian radicals, but it also does not understand how the world works or the seduction of evil. The liberal church is a largely middle class, bourgeoisie phenomenon, filled with many people who have profited from industrialization, the American empire and global capitalism. They often seem to think that if we can be nice and inclusive everything will work out.
There is nothing in human nature or human history to support the idea that we are morally advancing as a species or that we will overcome the flaws of human nature. We progress technologically and scientifically, but not morally. We use the newest instruments of technological and scientific progress to create more efficient forms of killing, repression and economic exploitation, and to accelerate environmental degradation. There is a good and a bad side to human progress. We are not moving towards a glorious utopia. We are not moving anywhere.
Religious institutions, however, should be separated from the religious values imparted to me by religious figures, including my father. Most of these men and women frequently ran afoul of their own religious authorities. Religion, real religion, was about fighting for justice, standing up for the voiceless and the weak, reaching out in acts of kindness and compassion to the stranger and the outcast, living a life of simplicity, finding empathy and defying the powerful. It was about caring for the other. Spirituality was not defined by "how it is with me," but the tougher spirituality of resistance, the spirituality born of struggle, of the fight with the world's evils. This spirituality, vastly different from the narcissism of modern spirituality movements, was eloquently articulated by Dr. King and the Lutheran minister Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was imprisoned and put to death by the Nazis.
Many of these atheists, like the Christian fundamentalists, support the imperialist projects and preemptive wars of the United States as a necessity in the battle against terrorism and irrational religion. They divide the world into superior and inferior races, those who are enlightened by reason and knowledge and those who are governed by irrational and dangerous religious beliefs. Hitchens and Harris describe the Muslim world, where I spent seven years, most of them as the Middle East bureau chief for the New York Times, in language that is as racist, crude and intolerant as that used by Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell. They are a secular version of the religious right. They misuse Darwin and evolutionary biology, just as the Christian fundamentalists misuse the Bible, by trying to argue that we can evolve morally -- something Darwin never asserted. They are as anti-intellectual as the Christian Right.
And while the atheists do not have much power and are not a threat to the democratic state, they engage in the same chauvinism and call for the same violent utopianism of the radical Christian Right. They sell this under secular banners, but this does not excuse it. They believe, like the Christian Right, that we are moving forward to a paradise, a state of human perfection made possible by science and reason. They argue, like these Christian radicals, that some human beings, maybe many human beings, have to be eradicated to achieve this better world.
Harris, echoing the blood lust of Hitchens, calls, in his book The End of Faith, for a nuclear first strike against the Islamic world. He defends torture as a logical form of interrogation. He, like all utopians, has reduced millions of human beings and cultures he knows nothing about to primitive impediments to his vision of a better world.
"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry?" Harris asks. "If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own.
Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime -- as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day -- but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe." Harris reduces a fifth of the world's population to a vast, primitive enemy. He blithely accepts that we may have to murder "tens of millions of people in a single day." His bigotry, and the bigotry of all who dehumanize others, sets the stage for indiscriminate slaughter and atrocity. The people to be killed, we are told, are not really distinct individuals. They do not have hopes and aspirations. They only appear human. They must be destroyed because of what they represent, what lurks beneath the surface of their human form. This dehumanization, especially by those who live in a society with the technological capacity to carry out acts of massive industrial slaughter, is terrifying. The new atheists see only one truth -- their truth. Human beings must become like them, think like them and adopt their values, which they insist are universal, or be banished from civilized society. All other values, which they never investigate or examine, are dismissed as inferior.
We live in an age of faith. We are assured we are advancing as a species towards a world that will be made perfect by reason, technology, science or the second coming of Jesus Christ. Evil can be eradicated. War has been declared on nebulous forces or cultures that stand as impediments to progress. Religion, if you are secular, is blamed for genocide, injustice, persecution, backwardness and intellectual and sexual repression. Secular humanism, if you are born again, is branded as a tool of Satan.
The folly of humankind, however, is pervasive. It infects all human endeavors. It has not exempted itself from institutional religion or the cult of science and reason. The greatest danger that besets us does not come from believers or atheists. It comes from those who, under the guise of religion, science or reason, imagine that we can free ourselves from the limitations of human nature and perfect the human species. Those who insist we are morally advancing as a species are deluding themselves. There is nothing in science or human history to support this idea. Human individuals can make moral advances, as can human societies, but they also make moral reverses. Our personal and collective histories are not linear.
This belief in inevitable moral progress, whether it comes in secular or religious form, is magical thinking. The secular version of this myth peddles fables no less fantastic, and no less delusional, than those preached from church pulpits. The battle under way in America is not a battle between religion and science. It is a battle between religious and secular fundamentalists. It is a battle between two groups intoxicated with the utopian and magical belief that humankind can protect itself and master its destiny.
These New Atheists, like all religious fundamentalists, fail to grasp the dark reality of human nature, our own capacity for evil and the morally neutral universe we inhabit. There is nothing in human nature or human history to support the idea that we are morally advancing as a species or that we will overcome the flaws of human nature. We progress technologically and scientifically, but not morally. We use the newest instruments of technological and scientific progress to create more efficient forms of killing, repression, economic exploitation and to accelerate environmental degradation as well as to nurture and sustain life. There is a good and a bad side to human progress. We are not moving towards a glorious utopia. We are not moving anywhere.
The New Atheists misuse Darwin and evolutionary biology as egregiously as the Christian fundamentalists misuse the Bible. Darwinism, which pays homage to the final and complete mastery of our animal natures, never posits that human beings can transcend their natures and create a human paradise. It argues the opposite. The illusion of human progress, in the name of evolutionary biology, is actually anti-Darwinian. And in this the New Atheists are neither honest about science or Darwin. Science is used by them to supplant religion to provide meaning and hope. It is used to assuage these innate religious yearnings. Since scientific knowledge is cumulative, albeit morally neutral, it gives the illusion that human history and human progress is also cumulative. And in many ways science has simply replaced the faith our pre-modern ancestors had in God.
But more ominously, the New Atheists ignore the wisdom of Original Sin, as well as studies in cognitive behavior, that illustrate that human nature is often irrational and flawed. We are all governed, even in our moments of greatest lucidity, by unconscious forces. This understanding, whether achieved through Augustine or Freud, has been our most potent check on schemes of human perfectibility and utopian visions. But the New Atheists, like all believers in myth, refuse to listen. They peddle the alluring and enticing fantasy of inevitable moral and material progress. This vision is not based on science, history or reason. It is an act of faith. It is a form of the occult. It is no more scientific legitimacy than alchemy.
These New Atheists and Christian radicals have built squalid little belief systems that are in the service of themselves and their own power. They urge us forward into a nonreality-based world, one where force and violence, where self-exaltation and blind nationalism are an unquestioned good. They seek to make us afraid of what we do not know or understand. They use this fear to justify cruelty and war. They ask us to kneel before little idols that look and act like them, telling us that one day, if we trust enough in God or reason, we will have everything we desire.
I Don't Believe in Atheists is a call to reject simplistic and utopian visions. It is a call to accept the severe limitations of being human. It is a call to face reality, a reality which in the coming decades is going to be bleak and difficult. Those who are blinded by utopian visions inevitably turn to force to make their impossible dreams and their noble ideals real. They believe the ends, no matter how barbaric, justify the means. Utopian ideologues, armed with the technology and mechanisms of industrial slaughter, have killed tens of millions of people over the last century. They ask us to inflict suffering and death in the name of virtue and truth. The New Atheists, in the end, offer us a new version of an old and dangerous faith. It is one we have seen before. It is one we must fight.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: HeKnew on Mar 22, 2008 12:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Who
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» Right on. Hedges sets up some silly straw men . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: ight on. Hedges sets up some silly straw men . . .
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: ight on. Hedges sets up some silly straw men . . .
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: ight on. Hedges sets up some silly straw men . . .
Posted by: StrayCat
» RE: Terrorist
Posted by: muzunguhowru
» Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: themama
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: wuneyeddog
» Buddhism Didn't Come into the Equation during WW2
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Buddhism Didn't Come into the Equation during WW2
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Buddhism Didn't Come into the Equation during WW2
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» What about Zionists?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: What about Zionists?
Posted by: emmas
» RE: What about Zionists?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: What about Zionists?
Posted by: Intellect
» If a "Buddhist" started a war over Buddhism....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: If a "Buddhist" started a war over Buddhism....
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: If a "Buddhist" started a war over Buddhism....
Posted by: radiomorning
» I would....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: If a "Buddhist" started a war over Buddhism....
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: Ripcord
» The Dalai Lama met the Pope
Posted by: Cathyc
» So, the Pope and the Dalai Lama walk into a bar....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: redstarwraith
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this.
Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Terrorist
Posted by: StrayCat
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Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal on Mar 22, 2008 12:29 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is truly strange to hold beliefs for which we are persecuted with impunity in allegedly free Western Civilization.
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» I am Narcissist Self-Righteousness
Posted by: maddy
» Psychobabbling Nonsense
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Others not agreeing with you isn't persecution.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: oregonox
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» and then...
Posted by: Tombo
» RE: and then...
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» John 18:38
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: John 18:38
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: John 18:38
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: John 18:38
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: John 18:38
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: John 18:38
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: John 18:38
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: John 18:38
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: John 18:38
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: 1gma
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution. (Oh, really?!)
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution. (Oh, really?!)
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution. (Oh, really?!)
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: Jayzer
» Haeresis est maxima, *********** non credere.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Haeresis est maxima, *********** non credere.
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: Haeresis est maxima, *********** non credere.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: tclaverdure
» RE: Years of solitary confinement is persecution.
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Re: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: e: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: recj50
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Now that you mention it...
Posted by: CanuckKid
» RE: Now that you mention it...
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Now that you mention it...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Crimethinking in the Free(sic) World
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» Fair enough...
Posted by: CanuckKid
» RE: Fair enough...
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» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: emmas
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: bcgirl125
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
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» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Giacomo Puccini.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: donnee
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: Rapunzel
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Posted by: primalscream on Mar 22, 2008 1:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» good comment
Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Both are boring
Posted by: SkeeterVT1
» RE: Both are boring
Posted by: leafsong1
» Despite Skeeter & Hedges - Religious Fundamentalism and atheism have nothing in common
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Despite Skeeter & Hedges - Religious Fundamentalism and atheism have nothing in common
Posted by: 1gma
» RE: Despite Skeeter & Hedges - Religious Fundamentalism and atheism have nothing in common
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Despite Skeeter & Hedges - Religious Fundamentalism and atheism have nothing in common
Posted by: StrayCat
» RE: Despite Skeeter & Hedges - Religious Belief
Posted by: upHurled
» religious fundamentalism and atheistic fundamentalism are mirror images of each other.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Despite Skeeter & Hedges - Religious Fundamentalism and atheism have nothing in common
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Both are boring
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Both are boring
Posted by: primalscream
» I thought rejection of absolutes was agnosticism....
Posted by: sallythewally
» RE: I thought rejection of absolutes was agnosticism....
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Both are boring
Posted by: talkville
» Zionism is Anit-Ameircan
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Zionism is Anit-Ameircan
Posted by: talkville
» RE: Zionism is Anit-Ameircan
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» "get rid of those 19th-century ideas about the laws of Nature"
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lector on Mar 22, 2008 2:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Many of these atheists, like the Christian fundamentalists, support the imperialist projects and preemptive wars of the United States” Besides the most celebrated exception, Christopher Hitchens, probably too intellectual for Hedges to understand, how many atheists compared to Christians in Congress voted to go to war against Iraq?
“Religion, real religion, was about fighting for justice, standing up for the voiceless and the weak, reaching out in acts of kindness and compassion to the stranger and the outcast, living a life of simplicity, finding empathy and defying the powerful.” “real religion”? This is where I begin to view Hedges as another fundamentalist nut. Atheists, non-believers, have also fought for justice, stood up for the voiceless, the weak, reached out in acts of kindness and compassion to strangers and outcasts…etc. So before the Bronze Age came along, when Christianity didn’t exist yet, none of this human compassion existed either I suppose.
Pointless
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» How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: SkeeterVT1
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: Shaman666
» Ronald S. Lauder, Larry Silverstein, Frank Lowy...
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» You don't know what you are talking about
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: You don't know what you are talking about
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: oldumbo
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: radiomorning
» Ever Read "We Have Some Planes?"
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: teddybear
» Not this one . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» Who needs religion for brainwashing when there's TV?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Is Zionism a Religion?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: donl51
» RE: How many Atheists believe fires and planes demolished the WTC?
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: The White Noise of Chris Hedges
Posted by: luzmejor
» EVERYTHING is "supernatural"
Posted by: 2dogarage
» you forgot another one of Hedges' mis-statements...
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» You've already articulated my thoughts on this article. What's it doing in Alternet, though?
Posted by: olderworker
» RE: The White Noise of Chris Hedges
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Mar 22, 2008 2:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Calling attention to the complexities of the human condition, especially today in these social darwinistic and biologistic times is reasonable and sensible. We can't forget that consciousness and self-consciousness are but a bare Surface of the human being. We must each move carefully in those states of mind characterized as 'believing' and 'believing in' and think carefully about such processes as evaluation and value making.
Since Copernicus, centers are difficult to pin-point in experience and in values; since Darwin, it is not possible to detach our species from the tissues of nature and our planet. We're barely beginning, despite our immense reliance and pride in technologic and other advancements, and Hedges points out a useful corrective to enthusiasms which can easily lead to zealotries either facts containing values or values containing facts.
Dialog presupposes equality; otherwise it's just a game of dominance and submission, compromise and capitulation. The USA is in dire need and Hedges' points are well worth the read.
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» Did you read the same quote?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Did you read the same quote?
Posted by: carcinoid112
» Hard-core atheists?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE:what me ? Hard-core atheists?
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Hard-core atheists?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Hard-core atheists?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Did you read the same quote?
Posted by: leafsong1
» Aboslutely
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Well put
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Did you read the same quote?
Posted by: talkville
» RE: Did you read the same quote?
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Did you read the same quote?
Posted by: talkville
» RE: Did you read the same quote?
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: Did you read the same quote?
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rune on Mar 22, 2008 2:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll readily agree that science is interesting and useful. I will also point out that not everyone is particularly gifted in the abstract and critical thinking that is important to advancing science. Even so, most people can get a vague idea of what science is about and appreciate its appropriateness and usefulness in not only understanding the world, but creating it--which may be one in the same depending on which philosophical forks in the road you choose in approaching science.
That said, I find it just as easy to recognize that human beings are adept at perceiving and interpreting spiritual experiences. Spirituality is also useful in making sense of, coping with, and even changing the world, as many who have changed it have noted in some of their most impassioned comments on their diverse works. Asking whether spirituality is "real" is a bit like asking whether the magic of music, art, or poetry is "real." Trying to reduce spirituality to physical phenomena is as misguided as trying to understand music by measuring pressures waves in the air set in motion by musical instruments. That just ain't what it's all about.
What it is all about, in my opinion, is fundamental human creativity and awareness that adds richness and direction to life to the extent an individual gets it and gets into it. I think everyone can get into some aspect of spirituality if they allow themselves to explore and accept such experiences. It strikes me as odd that some are passionate about not only denying their own spirituality, but determined to deny it in others, too.
There is nothing inherently dangerous about spirituality, any more than science is inherently dangerous. Both, however, can and have been used to endanger and even kill people. Further, both have been twisted into excuses for shunning and harming others. We need not rid ourselves of either science or spirituality to be safe from these tendencies. Rather, we need to fully embrace sense of grace and morality just as firmly as we grasp the teachings of logic and experimentation to see past our fear of others who see the world differently and learn to coexist with them, if not be better off for having known them.
As the author notes, there are some aspects of religion that limit and distort spiritual understanding in ways that can be damaging to individuals and society at large. It is possible to point out those problems without stereotyping everyone who acknowledges the importance of their own spirituality as being such a threat. Is that really so difficult to understand? Or is it more a matter of certain devotees of science being so defensive of the limits of perception, communication, and certain aspects of epistemology that they feel they must lash out at any reminders of those shaky underpinnings of their preferred world view? I really do wonder sometimes.
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» RE: spirituality
Posted by: agathena
» RE: spirituality
Posted by: aonghus36
» More than 'harbored some doubts'
Posted by: agathena
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: mark
» As you wish
Posted by: Rune
» RE: As you wish
Posted by: mark
» RE: As you wish
Posted by: StrayCat
» Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: ichard Dawkins?
Posted by: Bibsi
» Re: Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: Rune
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: mark
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Richard Dawkins?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: ichard Dawkins?
Posted by: StrayCat
» RE: "Religion is antithetical to spirituality" and so too is Richard Dawkins!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: StrayCat
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: leafsong1
» All knowledge and belief is, at its root, subjective
Posted by: Rune
» All experience and belief is, at its root, subjective
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: All experience and belief is, at its root, subjective
Posted by: Rune
» RE: All experience and belief is, at its root, subjective
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: All experience and belief is, at its root, subjective
Posted by: Rune
» RE: All experience and belief is, at its root, subjective
Posted by: bornxeyed
» What's wrong with being subjective?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Nothing wrong with subjectivity. It is all we have.
Posted by: Rune
» If you lack sufficient self awareness...
Posted by: leafsong1
» More pollution
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: StrayCat
» Give Ambiguity a chance
Posted by: Balanz
» RE: Give Ambiguity a chance
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: bg41
» I did not say that all atheism is fundamentalist in nature
Posted by: Rune
» RE: I did not say that all atheism is fundamentalist in nature
Posted by: bg41
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: bg41
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: bg41
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Bad science can (and does) kill people!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Bad science can (and does) kill people!
Posted by: bg41
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: StrayCat
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: bornxeyed
» The problem with your thesis is it's full of assumptions...
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» Very good!
Posted by: Rune
» RE: Very good!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Mental Masturbation
Posted by: Mycos
» Dear Rune...your postmodernism is going to kill us
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» EXCELLENT post
Posted by: kwalla
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gazooks on Mar 22, 2008 2:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It occurs to me, that from a basic perceptual view, our fix on time as a linear event lends an unfortunate, perpetually frustrating bias and predisposition to reliance on these repetitively failing, mythical constructs of moral absolutism that lead to some "heaven".
And despite the explicitly humbling force of our still infant view of quanta and consciousness, there's this overriding acceptance by otherwise thinking people that we're somehow obligated to make pronouncements, take stands of belief and sell it as knowledge.
Just good biddness, I guess.
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» RE: Don't Fence Me In, or The Tyranny of Time ...
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kevbo on Mar 22, 2008 3:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does Hedges not understand that all that above can be achieved, pursued and espoused in a more authentic manner without religion?
There are slight shades of David Hume in Hedges' declaration that we are morally stagnant. Harris and Hitchens are indicating that with reason as our guiding force, we can collectively as a civilization make more sophisticated and sound moral decisions.... and pass that on. Naturally, we can not expect the pursuit of logical and scientific truths over superstition to result in a rewriting of our genetic code or an improvement of neural pathways. I don't think Hedges actually understands what he was reading.
He makes many important points about religious fundamentalism but he really throws the baby out with the bathwater when he regards atheism.
It would appear from this excerpt that Hedges' book will only muddy the waters and not result in improved debate about religion, science, atheism et al. I expect it will just fortify some reactive people's distaste for atheism rather than inform anyone constructively.
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» RE: You're not helping.
Posted by: dmaciewski
» Thomas Hobbes not Hume
Posted by: Kevbo
» RE: Thomas Hobbes not Hume
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: You're not helping.
Posted by: newtype_alpha
Comments are closed-
Posted by: emgscot51 on Mar 22, 2008 4:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the way, the title of the book is idiotic.
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» RE: We were all born atheist.
Posted by: Afban
» all the same God ... in many different forms???
Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: all the same God ... in many different forms???
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Spirituality isn't experienced at all, feelings are
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Spirituality isn't experienced at all, feelings are
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Spirituality isn't experienced at all, feelings are
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: We were all born atheist.
Posted by: mazel
» RE: We were all born atheist.
Posted by: davemj
» RE: We were all born atheist.QUITE THE OPPOSITE
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: We were all born atheist.QUITE THE OPPOSITE
Posted by: Ruperic
» RE: We were all born atheist.QUITE THE OPPOSITE
Posted by: drricklippin
» What the problem is...
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: What the problem is...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What the problem is...
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: What the problem is...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What the problem is...
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: What the problem is...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What the problem is... Well said, carcinoid112!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: What the problem is...
Posted by: Basenjis
» Open-mindedness and curiosity
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Open-mindedness and curiosity
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: We were all born , that is all we can say.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: We were all born , that is all we can say.
Posted by: carcinoid112
» QUITE THE OPPOSITE of what?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: The definition of Spiritual is not "open and curious"
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: The definition of Spiritual is not "open and curious"
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: THIAHB on Mar 22, 2008 4:39 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite two "world wars" in the 20th Century, the world-wide death toll from war was, in percentage terms, lower than at any time in history. Wars are becoming rarer, shorter and less lethal. I think that represents progress.
Hedges is right about one thing: atheists and fundamentalists alike cloak their lust for power in fancy rhetoric. However, to conclude that humans are incapable of moral advancement is an irrational response, a counsel of despair which in the end is just as crazy as believing in Utopia or the Rapture.
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» how the hell does a percentage make the unbelievable slaughter...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: how the hell does a percentage make the unbelievable slaughter...
Posted by: THIAHB
» the potential for achievement
Posted by: Coleman
» My point?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» As a planet? Joshua, we humans are not the Planet Earth...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: how the hell does a percentage make the unbelievable slaughter...
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: On Pessimism
Posted by: magne
» RE: On Pessimism
Posted by: Cathyc
» Wars are becoming rarer and less lethal???
Posted by: Cathyc
» Seriously... think about it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» A brief history of violence
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: On Pessimism
Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: On Pessimism
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: On Pessimism
Posted by: THIAHB
Comments are closed-
Posted by: billfurioso on Mar 22, 2008 4:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is not a "legacy of the Christian faith". Chris Hedges, as well as, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, all seem to be amassing popularity and money by writing about things they know little about. I'm quite tried of the publishing and promotion of people presented as "experts" on subjects they obviously know little about. What could possibly be the motivation behind such phenomena except to peddle controversy for profit?
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» RE: "You can't believe everything you read."
Posted by: Zeugitai
» We don't have to buy their books...
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lois on Mar 22, 2008 5:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What Daddy God would that Be?
Posted by: walldodger1969
» RE: What Daddy God would that Be?
Posted by: carcinoid112
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urstrly on Mar 22, 2008 5:43 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But it saddens me that Hedges seems to have turned away not only from religion but from spirituality and I can't discern his own belief system from which he attacks not only atheists but the religious right. If he finds religious liberalism too ineffectual, what drives him? Does he think he alone has the truth?
We may all be sinners (haven't met a perfect human yet) who collectively are capable of rationalizing great evils. But what I'd like to hear from Hedges is some evidence that he experiences the power of love to transform us as well.
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» I'm not a "sinner"
Posted by: rancespergl
» RE: I'm not a "sinner"
Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: I'm not a "sinner"
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System
Posted by: Bizby
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System
Posted by: Intellect
» As Aldous Huxley said...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: You can't prove a negative
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System
Posted by: tnerg
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System
Posted by: Spot
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pcushniesr on Mar 22, 2008 6:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The new atheists see only one truth -- their truth. Human beings must become like them, think like them and adopt their values, which they insist are universal, or be banished from civilized society."
Not a bad idea. We should begin right away. I understand there's still lots of vacant land in Siberia where the New Gulags could be established. And who should decide who goes and who stays? Well, not to appear immodest, but I'll do it.
"Religion, if you are secular, is blamed for genocide, injustice, persecution, backwardness and intellectual and sexual repression. Secular humanism, if you are born again, is branded as a tool of Satan."
Believe it or not, Mr. Hedges, there are some issues on which one side is clearly right and the other clearly wrong. This is one of them. Atheism, good; religion, bad. Simple. Nobody is a tool of the devil because the devil does not exist, but atheism, if you will pardon the expression, is on the side of the angels.
But seriously, folks, the "new atheism" is like he tension of a spring, long compressed then suddenly released. It is energy long confined then let go. And if this energy and tension did not exit their prisons like Nelson Mandella, but more like Fidel Castro, well, that's just what circumstances demanded at the time. Get used to it, Chris. ol' buddy, ol' pal.
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» RE: Well! Right on
Posted by: agathena
» Chris Hedges was talking about people like you
Posted by: warriornation
» RE: Chris Hedges was talking about people like you
Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: Belief without Proof is Bad, Religion is Belief without Proof
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» the problem is that kind of black and white thinking
Posted by: happyhermit
» The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
Posted by: Intellect
» in case you haven't noticed
Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: in case you haven't noticed
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: in case you haven't noticed
Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: in case you haven't noticed
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: in case you haven't noticed
Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: in case you haven't noticed
Posted by: tnerg
» RE: in case you haven't noticed
Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation
Posted by: bornxeyed
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Democritus on Mar 22, 2008 6:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although we know full well the aggressive spark that has been placed in our genetic structure, it doesn't always burst into the flame of hatred against other races and peoples. As David Hume pointed out, we have in our makeup not only the serpent, but also the dove. Whether one is religious,like St. Francis, or whether one is an atheist, like Hume, it does no harm to wish for a better world. Just think of Condorcet, unjustly imprisoned, still dreaming of the rights of man and the betterment of the human condition.
What motivates people like Robertson and Falwell, on the one hand, and Harris and Hitchens, on the other, is not their yearning for utopia, but their crabbed and narrow view of the world and their dislike of those who do not think the way they do. It is a failure of ethical resolve and a wilfull disregard of the fact that we're all descendants of "The Seven Daughters of Eve," all linked by our genetic heritage.
As for utopian ideals, I think Robert Browning had it right in his "Andrea del Sarto," when he had his protagonist say: "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?"
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» Not really
Posted by: W SLaan
» RE: Not really
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Not really
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: what a stupid thing to say...
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: what a stupid thing to say...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: what a stupid thing to say...
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: what a stupid thing to say...
Posted by: astudent
» again, an atheist lumps all believers together
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: left_libertarian on Mar 22, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John Stuart Mill said it more eloquently in 'On Liberty':
The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Mar 22, 2008 6:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hedges is attempting to externally impose an orthodoxy on non-belief, the better to corner and attack it. Sorry - ain't buying it.
When people kill thousands for Allah - or Bush has a "crusade" to kill more for Jesus, it's evil. One group of fundamentalists is as bad as another.
When "true believers" of any stripe gain temporal authority, there is "hell to pay." Disagreement becomes a capital offense. It becomes justified to burn and kill over an insult to a long dead prophet and to kill righteously and preemptively in the name of another long dead prophet.
Hedges attack is primarily about selling books. Beyond that, it is about branding non-believers with some superimposed identity the better to attack them.
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» RE: By ridiculing the ridiculous
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: By ridiculing the ridiculous
Posted by: Ocean tides
» RE: By ridiculing the ridiculous
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: By ridiculing the ridiculous
Posted by: Intellect
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SEDGFLD on Mar 22, 2008 6:16 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: mark
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: ragamuffin
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: bg41
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways - I am absolutely intolerant of cannibalism
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» If there is one thing I can't stand, its intolerance!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: If there is one thing I can't stand, its intolerance!
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: mtnprivy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dannrusso on Mar 22, 2008 6:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
peace,
Dann
http://www.dannrusso.com
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Posted by: purereason on Mar 22, 2008 6:23 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mental exercises should not be mistaken for spirituality because spirituality can be had only in our relationship with the System that gave us life. We lose it when we get conquered by the religious faiths because they do not belong to the System of God. Though religions are supposed to promote spirituality they have become the greatest cause of destruction and manslaughter in this world. Religious faiths are alien to the constitution of the mind and the System.
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» blah, blah, blah
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: blah, blah, blah
Posted by: NAM67VET
» RE: blah, blah, blah
Posted by: carcinoid112
» Skim it
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Trash faith
Posted by: purereason
» RE: Trash faith
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Trash faith
Posted by: leafsong1
» Dude you crack me up
Posted by: leafsong1
» curious if you would be so offended
Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: curious if you would be so offended
Posted by: purereason
» I got your unconsiousness right here, buddy
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: blah, blah, blah
Posted by: leafsong1
» blah, blah, blah faiths
Posted by: purereason
» RE: blah, blah, blah
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: blah, blah, blah
Posted by: leafsong1
» blah, blah, blah vs intelligence
Posted by: purereason
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 22, 2008 6:24 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So called atheists have low ambiguity and uncertainty tolerance. Their rigidity indeed makes them dangerous.
THANKS CHRIS HEDGES!YOUR VOICE MUST BE INCREASINGLY HEARD!
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: JOHN L.
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: Anon12
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: bg41
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
» Nice!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Nice!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Nice!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Nice!
Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: "There ARE No Atheists!" declared the misguided theist
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: Spot
» RE: Apparently you've never heard...
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: tnerg
» RE: There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GPFrank on Mar 22, 2008 6:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the web site cited below contains a compendium of contemporary studies of the science of evil. It includes
an essay of how societies as whole become pathological, the relationship between psychopaths and societies and how psychopaths come to dominate groups and nations and how they empathasise with the dark side of normal individuals, the difference between antisocial, asocial personalities such a serial killers
and true psychopaths; the population of psychopaths is endemic throughout all regions of the world, the etiology of psychopathology and brain damage, especial the frontal region.
Then the purpose is to ask is how all this can be prevented, how can we acquire immunity to evil tendencies before they break out as a disease such as the Iraq war.
It ask such questions as to how pregnancies and birthing can be improve to prevent the occurrence of brain damage in some four percent of the population? How can up bringing of children be improved so as to
not enhance the effects of brain damage?
(Dis assembled to conform to posting rules:)
http:/
/www.cassiopaea.org/
cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski_2.htm
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» RE: xamine Ponerology the Science of Evil
Posted by: Basenjis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dogfather on Mar 22, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Religion = slavery
Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty
» RE: eligion = slavery
Posted by: Intellect
Comments are closed-
Posted by: otto on Mar 22, 2008 6:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Turned off by religion
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Otto
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reval on Mar 22, 2008 6:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now he's striking back, in, what I might add, is the most bizzaro stream of utter tripe I've yet to hear coming from his twisted, Harvard "divinity" mind.
I was at Royce Hall when Hedges debated Harris. Hedges proved that he was nothing but a giant bag of gas. He took up nearly the entire debate with an endless stream of half-baked, meandering and twisted logic, much of it restated here. Cliff Sherer had to ask him to wind it up so Harris could say a few words.
I think Hedges would be well-advised to head back TitoLandia and reinvestigate the non-religious war he thinks was never waged. And while he's there I hope he lays off the slivovitz. He obviously is unable to handle the rotgut.
~Rev El
Pastor, WVCSR
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» RE: He's striking back!
Posted by: Ranger
» RE: He's striking back!
Posted by: exasperated
» RE: He's striking back!
Posted by: animalleaderisgreat
» RE: He's striking back!
Posted by: Dissenter77
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rhinojos on Mar 22, 2008 6:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"They propose a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason"
Sounds like a logical route to me, I don't see anything wrong with this statement.
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» RE: What a load of. . . .
Posted by: reval
» Crap
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Crap
Posted by: reval
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 22, 2008 7:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion seeks "the answer"
Spirituality seeks "the question"
The most important imperative therefore is to keep endless dialogue going.
This is not moral relativism- It is the human condtion.
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
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» RE: Spirituality=Openness
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Spirituality=Openness
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Spirituality=Openness
Posted by: mark
» RE: Spirituality=Openness
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Spirituality=Openness
Posted by: mark
» RE: Atheism?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Atheism?
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
» RE: Atheism?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Atheism? - Is the absence of faith in a diety
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: redceres
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: mark
» RE: Mark
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Mark
Posted by: mark
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Bornxeyed's Mr. Hyde
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Bornxeyed's Mr. Hyde
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: The Bornxeyed farewell
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
» This is what I believe
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists - questions 1 & 2
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists - final questions
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists - final questions
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists - final questions
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: To uneasyone, dxlinuxchix and all Atheists - guess we're even, Knowmad
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Never...
Posted by: Knowmad
» "Religion of Atheism" equals.....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: "Religion of Atheism" equals.....
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: "Religion of Atheism" equals.....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: "Religion of Atheism" equals.....
Posted by: mark
» RE: "Religion of Atheism" equals.....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Spirituality=Openness
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Knowmad on Mar 22, 2008 7:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And while you're at it, why not simply try to be nicer to others, and more in tune with the potential gifts inherent in difference.
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» Vive La Difference!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Vive La Difference!
Posted by: Knowmad
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Posted by: karyse on Mar 22, 2008 7:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: good discussion but
Posted by: ragamuffin
» RE: good discussion but
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: 8 nontheist on Mar 22, 2008 7:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» born ok the first time
Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: born ok the first time
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: 8 non-theist
Posted by: carcinoid112
» Words, language - they mean a lot to us humans...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Doctrine of "Original Sin"
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: oregonox on Mar 22, 2008 7:22 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What are you talking about?
Posted by: 8 nontheist
» RE: What are you talking about?
Posted by: oregonox
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Posted by: Bizby on Mar 22, 2008 7:21 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I've also read the "new atheists" he cites, and like all of those who attack the "new atheists," Hedges only confronts the weakest arguments of the weakest books: He attacks Harris and Hitchens, but NEVER Dennett (and rarely Dawkins).
Dennett simply says lets apply empiricism to religious belief and see where that takes us. So far, where it takes us is that religious people believe in magic entities (angels, gods, whatever) that lie beyond human empirical knowledge.
Harris' point is, how can you condemn those who believe in a magic entity that, for example, hates gay people, when you yourself believe in the same magic entity, but simply believe that the magic entity doesn't hate gay people. There is no better basis for your belief in the intent of the magic being then in theirs.
That is what Hedges doesn't confront.
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» All religion comes from revelation
Posted by: agathena
» RE: All religion comes from revelation
Posted by: Bibsi
» An argument from first principles
Posted by: Canuckistan
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Posted by: Gregory Lynn Kruse on Mar 22, 2008 7:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that we didn't obey "God's" limiting edicts, but that we wanted to judge a morally neutral universe. This is a task that is not only impossible but futile as well. The universe has made a google of decisions about us without the slightest input from us, and though we may continue to increase our influence on our own development, we can't change the decisions of the past which have made us what we are. Whether we turn left or right, whether we believe in God or not, have no consequence outside the bubble we live in. The worst consequence we can imagine of our actions is death, yet more scary to me than death is the thought that life is indestructable and inescapable. Life strives to take on form of any kind and anywhere, and that suggests that it exists even without form. We should be teaching our children to seek the intersection of a line linking science and religion, crossed by a line linking form and oblivion. I call it "x" or "+". That is where I hope to find the truth, because it seems more noble to seek it than to avoid it.
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» RE: morally neutral universe
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
» RE: morally neutral universe
Posted by: jdkd
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Posted by: jmooney on Mar 22, 2008 7:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I actually read a lot of this writer's book at Barnes and Noble the other day (no, I didn't buy it), and it made some good points, and I agree that the so-called "New Atheists" can be a bit nuclear in their rhetoric, but it is a view point that needs to be heard, and, clearly, to sell books, you have got to make it spicey. Just bland pokes at religion while saying why can't we all sing Kumbayha (spelling may be wrong) wouldn't cause people to purchase books. They have to put and edge on it, and they do.
I don't much care if someone wants to believe in Spaghetti Monster or whatever, and I know many Spaghetti Monster believers do good things, but some of their brethren take it too far and say that if you don't eat x number of meatballs a day you'll go into the oven. And they are willing to wage wars based on that. I am opposed to that.
I think it is incumbent on moderate religious folks (or liberals, I know they are there) to actually take on the fundamentalists of their religious persuasion. I don't see where it is wrong to question a crazy belief.
One of the "New Atheists", Harris, I think, says that moderate and liberal religious people make it easier for the nuts to do their thing. I see his point, but I also think it need not be that way. Religious people who value science, evolution, reason and see their faiths as more mythological in nature, I think they can have sway on the conservatives. They need to speak up.
I'm grateful for the "New Atheists."
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» RE: Get a grip!
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Get a grip!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Get a grip!
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Get a grip!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Get a grip!
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: Get a grip!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Opposition. Yep, the religious control freaks have had their "Divine Right" way for too long!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Cake?
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Cake?
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leafsong1 on Mar 22, 2008 7:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Chris Hedges is gnawing away at the cord...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: babka on Mar 22, 2008 7:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I die, I die!" the Mother said,
"My children die for lack of bread.
What more has the merciless Tyrant said?"
The Monk sat down on the stony bed.
The blood red ran from the Grey Monk's side,
His hands and feet were wounded wide,
His body bent, his arms and knees
Like to the roots of ancient trees.
His eye was dry; no tear could flow:
A hollow groan first spoke his woe.
He trembled and shudder'd upon the bed;
At length with a feeble cry he said:
"When God commanded this hand to write
In the studious hours of deep midnight,
He told me the writing I wrote should prove
The bane of all that on Earth I lov'd.
My Brother starv'd between two walls,
His Children's cry my soul appalls;
I mock'd at the rack and griding chain,
My bent body mocks their torturing pain.
Thy father drew his sword in the North,
With his thousands strong he marched forth;
Thy Brother has arm'd himself in steel
To avenge the wrongs thy Children feel.
But vain the Sword and vain the Bow,
They never can work War's overthrow.
The Hermit's prayer and the Widow's tear
Alone can free the World from fear.
For a Tear is an intellectual thing,
And a Sigh is the sword of an Angel King,
And the bitter groan of the Martyr's woe
Is an arrow from the Almighty's bow.
The hand of Vengeance found the bed
To which the Purple Tyrant fled;
The iron hand crush'd the Tyrant's head
And became a Tyrant in his stead."
- William Blake
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» RE: if they were arresting Christians, would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Posted by: GPFrank
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Posted by: mdwoade on Mar 22, 2008 8:08 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have one question. Why is it that the same paragraph beginning with this: "These atheists and Christian radicals have built squalid little belief systems...", which appears TWICE in this piece. If you do not believe me, try searching for the word "squalid". The entire paragraph appears to have been copied and pasted back into the article.
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» Copied and Pasted
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: AuntSally on Mar 22, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I disagree. What you describe is real morality. Real religion puts forth fantastical, mythological beliefs as reasonable, such as virgin births, absolution of sin through crucifiction and resurrection, and the parting of large bodies of water.
I'm afraid you still completely miss the point of the likes of Harris and Dawkins: why do we treat such fantastical, supernatural beliefs as reasonable?
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» RE: AuntSally
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Religion was, and always will be ...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: ahilgart on Mar 22, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Selective bashing
Posted by: mark
» Nail hit on head
Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Nail hit on head
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Nail hit on head
Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Nail hit on head
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Nail hit on head
Posted by: mark
» RE: Nail hit on head
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Selective bashing
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Selective bashing
Posted by: mark
» RE: Selective bashing
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Selective bashing
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Selective bashing
Posted by: mark
» RE: Selective bashing: Just a second, now!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Selective bashing: Just a second, now!
Posted by: mark
Comments are closed-
Posted by: soowee on Mar 22, 2008 8:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The New Atheists embrace a belief system as intolerant, chauvinistic and bigoted as that of religious fundamentalists. *** The utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being, the idea that we are moving towards collective salvation, is one of the most dangerous legacies of the Christian faith and the Enlightenment."
I don't know what Hedges has been smoking, but what he describes is not what I as an atheist believe. I am sick and tired of believers trying foolishly to state what atheists think. We are no more capable of being pigeon-holed and grouped than are Christians, or Jews or New Yorkers.
I don't give a rat about "a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason ... [a]utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being...."
Where does that crap come from? I daresay it is no more possible than does Hedges. What in the world gives him the idea that atheists embrace such nonsense?
More Hedges:
"Those who believe in the possibility of this perfection often call for the silencing or eradication of human beings who are impediments to human progress. They turn their particular good into a universal good. They are blind to their own corruption and capacity for evil. They soon commit evil, not for evil's sake but to make a better world."
Hedges clearly intends to persuade his readers that we atheists, "blind to our own corruption," are plotting some secret plan to "silence and eradicate" those who disagree with us. Hedges is a willful, deliberate fear-monger who, in my opinion, is lying outright to scare people into hating atheists.
I have no use for trifle like Hedges. He can go pimp his book elsewhere.
H. W. Ellerson
PO Box 90
Hadensville, VA 23067
(804) 457-4243
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» RE: soowee
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: soowee
Posted by: soowee
» RE: carcinoid112 1:01 PM
Posted by: soowee
» RE: carcinoid112 1:01 PM
Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: carcinoid112 1:01 PM
Posted by: soowee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leveller on Mar 22, 2008 8:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Finally, quite frankly in your article you sound like a disciple of Friederich von Hayek sometimes. ASs you know, his looney ideas led to Neo-liberalism, Thatcherism, Reganomics, conquest disguised as liberal interventionism, and the sub-prime mortgage disaster.
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» RE: Brian the leveller.
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: johnwilkins1672 on Mar 22, 2008 8:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do wish that people would take an anthropology of religion class. Looking at religion as a set of beliefs is not the most accurate way to look at this aspect of human behavior.
Religion is a short cut for human behavior. For example, a religion, through symbols and hypnotic commands, example to cooperate. To cooperate in gathering food, and in destroying the tribe next to us. Cooperation is good... or is it? Individual creativity is good, unless that creativity says my neighbor should be the canvas for my artistic knifework.
Religion is wherever bands of people greater than 125 gather. We just aren't looking hard enough as it uses a language familiar to us, or we are so immersed in it, we can't see the religious aspects of our behavior.
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Posted by: Sy Ence on Mar 22, 2008 8:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as morality is concerned...
I could sit here all day expounding on the shaky ground on which religion has built its moral foundations, but I will digress. Not worth the time or effort.
What I would like to say is this- I was raised a 'Christian' and found it much easier to justify my moral deficiencies by 'asking for forgiveness from God.' As a non-believer, I find that I think about my actions and their consequences in a different manner.
I don't know if Mr. Hedges has children, but as the father of a 3-year old I find it much easier to tell him the truth about the world around him, and the fact that neither science nor reason has all the answers, rather than the position of 'goddidit.' Your own intellect will lead you to (some)answers to life's difficult questions, not blind adherence to religious dogma. Besides, we have to teach children the belief in a supernatural being because the default position at birth really is 'atheism.' Just as no child is born believing in Santa or the Tooth Fairy...
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» RE: Atheism is lack of belief
Posted by: Dissenter77
» RE: Atheism is lack of belief
Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: Atheism is lack of belief
Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: Atheism is lack of belief
Posted by: Bibsi
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Mar 22, 2008 8:31 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Indiana in the 1920s the Ku Klux Klan infiltrated lots of churches across the board with a message of worshipping the Christ, secret rituals in hoods (what does Ku Klux stand for anyways?) and killing the neighbors.
I wouldn't be surprised to see militant nontheism taken over with a wack set of beliefs about killing the neighbors. The Bolsheviks were nontheists too, weren't they?
For every political and religious belief, be it environmentalism (the Unabomber), Christian Fundamentalism (Jim Jones and Jonestown, Guyana) or German national pride after a grinding military defeat, human belief systems can be corrupted to involve either tyrants or killing the neighbors.
Religion is simply the study of things that are hard to prove but which get reported as real. For example, a belief that UFOs abduct people is a religious belief. Numbers of people have stories about the problem, but there's no UFO sitting on my lawn today that I can show you. Similarly, if you believe in healing with prayer, or in God, numbers of other people have similar stories, and encourage you to collect these accounts, but if you tell me God is sitting on my lawn today and I just can't see Him, well, that's kind of fuzzy.
Politics is simply the fuzzy study of alternative systems of successfully controlling society, sometimes for the benefit of all, sometimes not. Economics is also occasionally fuzzy.
None of these nebulous scientific endeavors have anything to do with keeping tyrants in power or with killing your neighbors. However, because they're so nebulous, it's surprisingly easy to work in the kill the neighbors part. "As He died to make men holy, let's kill the neighbors to make men free! Our God is marching on!"
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Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney on Mar 22, 2008 8:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion has been at the root of most of our wars in this world, and when it comes to torture, religion has had their hands bloodied over and over and is well trained in this regard despite the message of peace and love of the religions. Catholics, Inquisition, Muslims, beheading, stoning and other forms of torture. The latest "believer" Mr. Hagee is trying to hasten the end of the world by stirring up problems in the Middle East. We've watched the Robertson's and Falwell's blame others for nateral disasters to promote their form of religion. It always has to be someone's fault for these things happening. These "religious leaders" needing scapegoats, such as gays & lesbians, Liberals, or some other "whipping-boy" to stir up the bigots in their flock and to make them more money to perpetuate this madness.
Yet, you are threatened and cry foul when a few atheists stand up for themselves and will not take your constant making of them "the bogeyman." You sir, and religion in general, have always been the problem not atheists.
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» RE: conomic and political domination, not religion, is the basis for war
Posted by: Intellect
» thanks Keith
Posted by: happyhermit
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 22, 2008 8:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Dad passed on, we had a nice (non-religious) memorial service at the funeral home. Sure enough, one of the "church-going" relatives wanted to come out with one of those prayers where they talk about how dying frees us from sin, etc. etc. He was politely told "no thanks" by us kids, and he was sullen and fuming for the rest of the service.
I am so grateful to have had a Dad who, due to the LACK of dogmatic religious belief, gave me an upbringing free from fear and guilt and a positive, hopeful life outlook.
Thank you, DAD!
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» RE: My Dad--
Posted by: Ocean tides
» Here's to your Dad (raises a glass)
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: My Dad--
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: My Dad--
Posted by: Jimsabis
» RE: My Dad--
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: lasirene on Mar 22, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The arguments were not precise or interesting, and this is actually an interesting topic.
I heard Hedges on Thom Hartmann's show the other day and was similarly unimpressed by his lack of incisesiveness (new word?). He seems to be conflicted himself and this comes across in his arguments. It just ends up being boring.
Alternet needs to edit better and Hedges needs to get better at making his point. Alternet readers deserve better than this.
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» RE: UNIMPRESSIVE
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: UNIMPRESSIVE
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: Dissenter77 on Mar 22, 2008 8:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People, look around and see that a lot of religious people talk the talk! Where are they when action is needed? Sure, they help, but so do Atheists! The difference is we Atheists don't show you our Atheism (unlike religionists who MUST tell you what they worship) and we are not looking to be patted on the back or expect to be chauffeured to see 72 virgins or to be greeted at "Heaven's Gates."
As for the so called "spiritualists" who believe in "spirituality," Please tell us just what the hell that means? You are full of shit with your meaningless word! What's next in your lineup? Kabbalah?
Get over yourselves my religious/spiritual friends. The Universe doesn't give a shit about you!
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» RE: Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality! WHY SO ANGRY?
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality! WHY SO ANGRY?
Posted by: Dissenter77
» RE: Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality! WHY SO ANGRY?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality!
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» RE: Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality!
Posted by: Dissenter77
» RE: Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality!
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: JOHN L. on Mar 22, 2008 9:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More often than not, collectively religion, beyond the direct applied causes of hyped-up excuses for wars and deprivation of those of (slightly different-or competing ones), also make themselves tools of whatever the ruling regime at the time.
"FreeThinkers" is an apt description of the non-believer/athiest, who is free, unshackled to explore all.
Of course there are unsavory types among "US", just as there are among all so-called designated groups, but at least athiests have the opportunity TO think, a luxury virtually forbidden among the "believers."
~old74
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Posted by: BlueTigress on Mar 22, 2008 9:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I still think Original Sin is a bullshit concept. To me the idea that a Creator put his creations in a place where they could have whatever they wanted BUT NOT THAT and expect them to leave it be shows a poor understanding of his creations.
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» RE: He lost me at Original Sin
Posted by: Ocean tides
» Do the same thing?
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: He lost me at Original Sin
Posted by: johnwilkins1672
» RE: He lost me at Original Sin
Posted by: Ocean tides
» RE: He lost me at Original Sin
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: BobbyG on Mar 22, 2008 9:22 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Let's see how many I can hit
Posted by: Anon12
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 22, 2008 9:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can Christians and Muslims and Jews, etc, really argue that their god is any more real than Zeus or Quetzalcoatl? No. Mythology is mythology.
Is it any wonder that certain religions predominate in specific parts of the world? and in specific times in history?
If any person of any religion was born instead in the middle of another period in time and in another part of the world, then chances are they would believe in another god or gods.
Our spirituality is only a Rorschach test of our experiences, our culture, our family, and is NOT based on any divine truth.
There is currently NO WAY that ANY of us can truly know what is really going on in regards to the consciousness of the universe or the after-life, if the universal consciousness or the afterlife exist at all in the first place.
Thing is, I would trust the mentally disturbed man with the tin-foil hat to tell me what is really up LONG before I would trust any "sane" person who derived their beliefs only from what others have to say on the topic (who in turn derived their own beliefs from the prior rantings of other deluded conformists.)
Insanity: Where you believe the lies you tell yourself.
Sanity: Where you believe the lies told you by everyone else.
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» RE: Conformism, Sanity, Insanity
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: siamdave on Mar 22, 2008 9:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bad logic - "These New Atheists attack a form of religious belief .." - no, the only 'belief' that is being attacked is the fundamental belief in the mythological god. There are many 'systems of belief' - all are equally invalid, because they are all based on this false god. What the priest class gets up to afterwards with their power is secondary - usually bad stuff, but the basic problem in the belief in this false god in the first place/
But rather than parse this article in its entirety, which would be a massive waste of time and take a short book, I just wanted to say a couple of things here. First, I do not accept the somewhat derogatory term of 'atheist', as in its overall framing that other people are normal with their belief in a mythological being, but those of us who decline this particular aspect of modern indoctrination are somehow beyond the pale. Actually, for intelligent people, it's the other way around. I consider myself to be normal, in terms of being an adult with a fairly solid grip on reality, having a normal array of imperfections, but not believing in santa claus or the easter bunny or zeus or 'god' or WMD, and when others admit to a belief in this christian god, they become theists, to me, and suspect, sort of like admitting to being a flat-earther or astrologist or nazi or something. They're going to have to explain to me how much I can trust them, if they are at the command of some priest class which might at any time order them to do things that normal people who make decisions based on rational input would consider irrational (you can't shop on Sundays because our god must be worshipped on that day!'), or that conflict otherwise with the wellbeing of my community (You shall not use contraception!!).
And "... the atheists ... engage in the same chauvinism and call for the same violent utopianism of the radical Christian Right. They sell ..They believe... They argue.." - that sort of thing is just plain schoolyard insults. So all 'atheists' are the same, think the same, believe the same, argue the same, just a bunch of cockroaches, no matter where you run into one, you can pull out your little list and say "Ah, an atheist, you believe ..., you think ,,,. you argue ...' Again, it's actually the theists this sort of comment applies to, demonstrably rather than insultingly - they all go through some sort of baptism ritual, at which time, after years of serious indoctrination, they swear eternal loyalty to a god noone has ever seen, affirming they believe all sorts of nonsensical things, swearing to do as the high priests of that god tell them, performing regular public rituals to demonstrate their fealty, obeying the commandments of the particular sect, and etc and etc. A normal person, now, well, you have no idea what they think, or believe, or feel, or argue, about mythological creatues or gods or anything else, until you talk to them.
And I could rant on all night about this, but have better things to do.
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» RE: how did something for Fox get here????
Posted by: CV
» RE: how did something for Fox get here????
Posted by: siamdave
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 22, 2008 10:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
LOL..!
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» Nope....
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Gungneir on Mar 22, 2008 10:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The above quote sums up, in toto, everything that I have to say to religionist and secularist extremists. For all their differences, they both seem to operate off the same two delusions:
1)that humankind, by virtue of God or its technological gadgets, are somehow seperate or superior to the rest of the natural world that gave it birth.
2)that only by following their way of thinking while ignoring the other side (never mind that both sides are the living avatars of two fundamental human needs that must be addressed) can humankind advance to a new golden age.
Meanwhile, back here on Planet Earth, everybody else who just wants to live their lives, raise their families, have enough to eat, and have some place to sleep every night gets swept up by the ongoing conflicts of these supposed "betters". The story is the same circular narrative that has been playing for the last six thousand years of civilization. People are killed, oppressed, imprisoned, run out of their homes, denied their natural-born liberty, and told that they are worthless and therefore don't matter. To think that this story is any different now because we are in a more enlightened age is self-delusion.
Based on the context of recent events, I believe we are approaching the end of a historical cycle and that a new cycle of history is about to begin. If true, it will require new or, at least, ridiculed/unacknowledged approachs to the way we live our lives. We may already be seeing that in South America with its shrugging off of the WTO yoke, but this is just hopeful speculation.
To face a new cycle requires courage to step outside the box that most of us have lived our lives. That, more than anything, is why I hate both sides so badly. Their fear of uncertainty does not let them see past their own blinders.
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Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 22, 2008 10:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One can find within science a critique of scientific absolutism. One can find within religion a critique of religious absolutism. Ergo, what justifies leaping over those fences? The inability to listen to criticism from within.
'Twas ever the same.
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» PS. "Perfectibility" is not "perfection."
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: bettyn on Mar 22, 2008 10:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have never found any feasible answers to any of these questions in ANY religion. At this late date in my life, I doubt that I ever will. I, and most people I know, have been forcefed religion from birth. Once on my own, I found much better things to do on Sundays than have some preacher or some church try to ram their beliefs into my head!
What is necessary for a happy and peaceful existence is just to accept others as they are. If they want to believe this gobbledegook, fine. Just don't drag me into it because I'm not buying what you're selling.
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» RE: Let's face it:
Posted by: libgal
» RE: Let's face it:
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: Anon12 on Mar 22, 2008 11:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: You know what would've been great in this article?
Posted by: bettyn
» RE: You know what would've been great in this article?
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: fidemclamscit on Mar 22, 2008 11:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not a particular fan of Hitchens or Harris, Hitchens being a bit of a casuist and Harris a little cavalier in his argumentative leaps. My disappointment derives from Hedges' broad generalizations and targeting of caricatures.
Atheism is not necessarily an ideology, a shadow form of faith. To tar atheists, many of whom belong to various humanist organizations, with the brush of genocidal elitsts who would justify first strike nuclear attacks against Muslim hordes is unfounded, undocumented, undocument-able and an insult to atheists, Muslims and Mr. Hedges' readers.
Unfortunately, Hedges mirrors the rhetorical excesses he accuses his "New Atheists" of practicing.
George Collins
Goffstown, New Hampshire
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» RE: George Collins
Posted by: Anon12
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Posted by: stuarts on Mar 22, 2008 11:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And here we are, dig up old outline, swap some nouns with the find/replace function, turn crank, deliver draft, hope previous success carries the day on what turns out to be akin to a poor hollywood sequel.
Could anyone really get past the introduction calling atheism a belief system without smelling the rot? I would ask the author to please check premises before wasting trees/time.
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Posted by: maven on Mar 22, 2008 11:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mention because I think that this is one of the more thought provoking articles I've read and wish I had time to read most everyone's comments. As I don't I may be repeating other's thoughts. Sorry.
In my heart of hearts, I have a little bit of utopian desires. Clearly I am older and wise enough to realize that we aren't getting there any time soon, but my only argument with Chris is his fundamentalist pessimism. I do think that the best good is manifest in thought and/or deed by those who approach all with clarity and just a soupcon of cynicism but with a foundation of positivity. To believe, and I use that word carefully, that there is no proof of or hope for moral improvement in humankind,(as Mr Hedges does per my reading) is not providing anything for humanity, and leaves any good deeds performed without inspiration to pay it forward. Ask the most unselfish among us, and I think you will find a conviction that what they are doing is spreading seeds. I think they are right.
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Posted by: surfreality on Mar 22, 2008 12:07 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I forget who said this but it strikes a note with me: "Religion is for those who are afraid of hell; spirituality is for those who've already been there."
I agree with the posters above who takes issue with this:"There is nothing in human nature or human history to support the idea that we are morally advancing as a species or that we will overcome the flaws of human nature. We progress technologically and scientifically, but not morally."
Good examples were cited above to refute this sad argument. In addition I would recommend reading Ken Wilbur's "A Brief History Of Everything". It's a great read and his essays on Spiral Dynamics address just this very point.
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Posted by: kelethian on Mar 22, 2008 12:08 PM
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I want to get Chris in front of a panel of noted humanitarians, perhaps. Maybe Lech Walesa can inform him that the 20th century left his worldview in the 19th. Or perhaps the Dalai Lama could enlighten him, heh.
I have to wonder what trauma sent him on this anti-humanist agenda. He even repeats his Gothic highschooler blather about how we go nowhere and were evil yadda yadda yadda.
So, what kind of society does he propose, where we acknowledge this so-called Calvinist fact? One, i am sure, of less freedoms, tighter controls and rule by AI machine ...if we ever develop it because we are "headed nowhere". Calvin's dream. All that man really wanted was to run a theocracy.
I want to take this man here to Florida and show him a space launch, and tell him how the sun will give us our power from panels and chemicals from biomass, how an Eee-sized PC will one day be all we need as far as personal tech, and how we will start a program to mine asteroids and perhaps near the end of this time period build the first nanoassembler... All only 10-15 years from now. We will have openings for construction jobs in -outer space-.
And if you say theres no oil solution, youre wrong. Pure and simple. Call up Johannesburg and ask them how they dealt with the oil embargo for 40 years. Better yet, you might want to call a place called Sasolburg... and realize that if you threw biomass charcoal in the process it would work. It's all hydro-carbon material after all. At least itd get us to where we develop fusion.
Military hardware is but one small aspect of science and engineering. A plant in the US that once built bioweapons now researches how to kill the germs. Thats not advancement socially and materially?
Its not advancement that what once took violent rebellions is now handled by vote? That a nation got one over on its millenia-old oppressors by way of protests and practical jokes until Gorby had had enough of Poland?
I hate to say this, but Chris here needs to go back to his crowd of goth kids.
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» The "Road to Nowhere"
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: rtmyth on Mar 22, 2008 12:25 PM
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Posted by: morticia on Mar 22, 2008 12:42 PM
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» Gee whiz, 2-rater...
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Vince2 on Mar 22, 2008 12:55 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Well, he is grappling with his, er, soul...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Well, he is grappling with his, er, soul...
Posted by: Anon12
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Posted by: dkm on Mar 22, 2008 12:55 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can understand that a person who graduated from a seminary would feel offended by someone saying that religion is bunk, but the proper response is to show that religion is not bunk. Instead Mr. Hedges attacks atheism for something that it is not. This style of argumentation is dishonest in that it doesn't really contradict the opposing viewpoint. What it does instead is validate the opposing viewpoint by tacitly accepting it, but then going off on some unconnected tangent is an attempt to cloud the issue.
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» RE: Straw man
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: Lee Marshall on Mar 22, 2008 12:57 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is human nature alright, but what a waste.
The big fight about Atheism simply relies on one side preferring to believe in a superpower with imaginary evidence, and Science with verifiable evidence. Most reasonable people prefer verifiable evidence, as I do, but what in the world difference does it make? Why fight over it? Believing something doesn't make it so.
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» it's a bit more complicated than that
Posted by: happyhermit
» We only feel "miniscule" if our parents/guardians...
Posted by: Cathyc
» agreed
Posted by: happyhermit
» agreed
Posted by: happyhermit
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Posted by: munchkinpup on Mar 22, 2008 1:13 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If one professes atheistic or agnostic beliefs they are perceived as being a threat to all religious faiths.
Atheism is simply not having a religious belief system--it is the ABSENCE of a belief in god or gods, not a belief system in itself.
Hedges wants to sell books, and the more inflammatory the title, the better to sell books with?! This country is in danger of becoming a theocracy, and Hedges anti-atheism rantings are completely irresponsible. I sincerely doubt if the "New Atheism" will be taking over the population any time soon.
Church of the "New Atheism" anyone??
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» RE: Atheism is not a Belief System
Posted by: morticia
» Atheism is not a Belief System, but it requires a belief system
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Atheism is not a Belief System, but it requires a belief system
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Atheism is not a Belief System, but it requires a belief system
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Atheism is not a Belief System, but it requires a belief system
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: happyhermit on Mar 22, 2008 1:14 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1.) the idea that the "liberal church" is monolithic and impotent. i'm not a member of the liberal church (or any church) but i do work with plenty of activists coming from these organizations and many of them are passionate and selfless in manner and tradition of MLK. also, with their coordinated acts of civil disobedience, they can be relatively effective in meeting certain ends. also, some live in abject poverty, and are not bourgeoisie. hedges does a lot of grouping people together in his appeals not to group people together.
2.) if you sit in a room for 4 hours every day and meditate on love and compassion, you CAN improve yourself. science has taught us, through neuroplasticity, that we can sculpt our neuropathways, through hard work, to walk down many roads. many religious--buddhism in particular--have been practicing this for centuries. the idea that an individual cannot progress morally is untrue. the idea that we cannot organize ourselves into communities of individuals who are learning to progress morally is also untrue. hedges doesn't prove his pessimism, he simply states it. also, i''m writing this from holland. although there is a lot of muslim/secular/christian conflict brewing here, i can't help but notice that Europe in general has made tremendous moral and societal progress in the past 100 years. i'm not positing the inevitability--or even the possibility--of utopia, but hedges could benefit from some balanced thinking here.
3.) i had a third point but i forgot it. so much for perfection.
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Posted by: Cathyc on Mar 22, 2008 1:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"But more ominously, the New Atheists ignore the wisdom of Original Sin, as well as studies in cognitive behavior, that illustrate that human nature is often irrational and flawed."
I don't know that the doctrine of Original Sin can be honestly described as "wise", since it is the belief, or claim that we humans are all born with the 'stain' of so-called Original Sin on our souls. In other words, we are "born evil" and (therefore) we need Jesus Christ as our "saviour" in order to be free of that inherent evil, as per Roman Catholic dogma.
What is wise about terrorising innocent children on a daily basis with such lies? What is wise about repeatedly telling children that they are very bad people? Nothing. Nothing at all.
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» RE: The unwise Doctrine of Original Sin
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: Doubtom on Mar 22, 2008 1:50 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Hedges finds atheists, new or otherwise, to be intolerant, I would at least agree to the accuracy of that claim as it applies to me. I've always had a very low threshold for ignorance which lies at the base of all religions. A pox on all religions and a plague on all of its purveyors.
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» RE: New Atheists??
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: carcinoid112 on Mar 22, 2008 1:52 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus did NOT claim to be a Christian. He didn't know the word in any form. Somebody made up that word, based on THEIR interpretation of what Jesus said. It was THEIR interpretation, but it probably wasn't exactly what most "christians" believe.
Now, Darwin wrote books, and promoted HIS thought processes. "Darwinism" is a word made up by people. It shorthands a belief in evolution.
By that sense, I'm a Darwinist. I'm also a Christian. And for those of you who are preparing to tell me I am wrong, fuck you. It's MY mind, it's MY intersection of faith and science, and it's MY prerogative to have spent years thinking this all through. When YOU rule the world, you can try to change my mind through ridicule or force. Until then, STFU, 'K??
The author of this article made some good points. He also made some stupid ones. He's got the "jargon" of this stupid 'social conflict' so wrapped around his head that it clouds his thoughts. (Original sin?? WTF?? We can read the educational background and get your Superior Holy Education Component, you don't need to jargonize us to show it off.) And it's ALL irrelevant to WHAT HUMANS DO.
But somebody HAS to write books to refute OTHER books so that the Publishing World can think it's relevant. Over the next few years, as the global economy crashes, it's going to be less of this and more about HOW do we survive. At that point, maybe most of us can quit bickering over who has the best kind of brain wiring, and try to refute the 'no progress' crap he dished out.
Quit looking for differences and start working on similarities. You'll find that MOST of us, whatever our beliefs/lack of beliefs are, really want to have a tolerable life, and want the same for others as well. All the rest is mental masturbation (please, folks, contrary to all recent internet use and a Seinfeld episode, it's spelled mastUrbation, OK?) and that's only pleasurable if you can't stand the realities of social intercourse (that's in the verbal sense there).
People, all kinds of people. They're pretty nice, once you quit trying to force them into YOUR preconceptions.
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» RE: The term "Darwinism"
Posted by: daniel1982
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Posted by: SunnyHill on Mar 22, 2008 2:09 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Dangerous Atheism
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Quasar on Mar 22, 2008 2:13 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Would that something as simple as common decency could be the moral measure of our sciences and religions and politics and if we found that it were missing from any one of them that we would re-evaluate what our sciences and religions and politics are teaching us.
I trust that my friend's common decency hasn't changed one way or the other.
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» RE: A good firend of mine
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: A good firend of mine
Posted by: Doubtom
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Posted by: lh on Mar 22, 2008 2:22 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard Hedges debating Harris at UCLA and thought he was trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. When talking about dictators that he said were atheists, he put Hitler into that category. However, Hitler was quite obviously religious based on his own writings.
I would like to ask Hedges if he believes in the Medusa or Pan or any of the other characters that are part of Greek and Roman mythology. If not, why not? Is it any less believable than the belief in someone rising from the dead? If that story had been part of the typical collection of Greek stories, it would be written off as just another fable. Giving degrees in theology or religious studies makes as much sense as separating mythology from literature courses and giving a degree in it.
And believing that faith is innate is insane! A child no more is born into this world with innate religious/spiritual beliefs than is it born to have racial or chauvinistic prejudices. The child has to be taught such things.
Religion has played a large part in the majority of wars in the world. Whether the breakup of Yugoslavia started out as political, it quickly devolved into a religious conflict with ethnic cleansing.
Hedges should pull himself out of the dark ages and embrace logic. Do I believe that logic governs the way the world works today? No. There are too many religious people at the helm - our own country is a perfect example.
It doesn't take religious figures to teach morals, it just takes moral people, and not all moral people are religious.
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» RE: Pot calling the kettle black
Posted by: reval
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 22, 2008 2:39 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And live-and-let-live, I say, when it comes to religion. You go ahead and believe in any mythology you desire, as long as you don't force it on me. And if you don't try to make me believe the way you do in regards to the unprovable, then I will return the favor.
As for the claim that we are not advancing as a civilization, maybe this is actually true over the short term. Who would have guessed years ago, for instance, that torture and domestic spying and wars based on lies would become in any way acceptable to modern day Americans?
Maybe our species does progress, but we have the capability to regress as well.
Yet I cannot buy completely into the idea of original sin. Are, as an example, ALL Americans guilty for the crimes of the Bush administration? The crimes are huge. Does their hugeness imply that those who are not directly connected to them are more to blame than otherwise? Maybe we all do share some of the blame, as miniscule as that blame is. For that infinitesimal amount of responsibility multiplied by the size of the crimes equals perhaps a large number. I must admit, this issue of original sin, especially in relation to the crimes of America's government (as opposed to its people), bothers me. Rationally, I know it is madness. But emotionally, on the other hand, I know that others around the world blame me and everyone I love for President Bush's crimes. I hope they are wrong, but maybe they are right.
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Posted by: wwittman on Mar 22, 2008 2:51 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
whereas there is ample proof that religion is.
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» RE: DANGEROUS???
Posted by: carcinoid112
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Posted by: izzyK on Mar 22, 2008 3:01 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1) This article was composed incompetently. For whatever reason, there are several paragraphs which are repeated word-for-word. For example, the first paragraph of Page 2 and the third paragraph of Page 3 are the exact same paragraph
The real insufferable part about this is hedges writing style in this is so reptitive and so without any structure of argument that things like repeating entire paragraphs slip by unnoticed. If this really is an accurate extract of the book,it doesn't bode well for Hedges' case on the whole.
2)Chris Hedges mischaracterizes the writings of the New Atheists to such an extent one wonders whether he has crossed beyond merely polemicizing into outright smearing and fabrication.
An example:
"Harris, echoing the blood lust of Hitchens, calls, in his book The End of Faith, for a nuclear first strike against the Islamic world"
He then quotes Harris to the effect that, if it entailed preventing a probable nuclear attack by an "islamist regime" a nuclear first strike would be justified. So at what point did "islamist regime", a government, become the muslim world, over one billion people? In Hedges imagination.
I have read Harris' book twice, i see great fault with many of his arguments. Yet this assertion appears nowhere in The End of Faith or Letter to a Christian nation.
another much cruder example:
"The New Atheists misuse Darwin and evolutionary biology as egregiously as the Christian fundamentalists misuse the Bible. Darwinism, which pays homage to the final and complete mastery of our animal natures, never posits that human beings can transcend their natures and create a human paradise"
When and where have the New Atheists, any of them at all, posited an "earthly paradise"? What's more, does anyone know what the heck Hedges means by the 'mastery of our animal natures'? This piece is rife with utterly opaque statements like this but it's the content that leads me to my third reason for believing this article to be awful.
3) While he might have some sympathy for this on the Alternet board here, Hedges' comments on progress, faith and human nature are disturbing. He asserts in the repeated paragraph that people simply do not make "moral progress", that they have a dark nature that cannot be overcome, projects like the New Atheists' are folly, Hedges' attitude here is quite a typical 'postmodern' one.
One cannot be sanguine about this, such a perspective is bunk, and in an obvious sense neo-conservative. It is thankfully untrue in the sense that while yes, it is obvious that "new forms of exploitation" have arisen and things like environmental degradation are very real. But let's look at some of the old demons that have been slayed by what we might call progress in just the past 200 years in just the US:
-chattel slavery
-restricted suffrage
-public mass lynchings
-whites-only drinking fountains
-the widespread use of patent medecines and faux cures for every ailment
-the use of chldren in mines and factories
Maybe you could call it political progress and opine that humans essential natures haven't changed, if that's the case, than who cares? We have changed human behavior in obvious ways or none of these changes would've stuck.
Hedges, however, sees all modern problems as intractable, a result of 'human hubris' and would implore us instead to seek refuge in our particular cultural truths and see reason and technology scaled back accordingly. But this would simply do nothing at all to tackle the world's problems which do indeed have the possiblity of resolution in reason, science, and democracy.
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» Evolution
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: morrie_edwards on Mar 22, 2008 3:07 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hedges' criticisms of Hitchens and Harris, however, completely miss the point. Neither are calling for human perfectibility. The central tenet of the new atheism could be more accurately stated as: it's 2008, the world is in a really dangerous and messed up place, and there's little hope of dealing with the problems facing humanity if we base our decisions on irrationality and medieval belief systems.
OF COURSE we shouldn't be attacking people because of their religious beliefs, and demonizing the entire Muslim world is insane. But this is not the core message of Harris at least.
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Posted by: GPFrank on Mar 22, 2008 3:18 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
previous posts conflict. Therefore I have to reserve an opinion except to comment that he
has touched on criticisms of the issues on all sides, whether or not one considers that 'wussy"
But what underlies these discussions is a debate on the behaviors of leaders and adherents to these different beliefs and how actual behaviors ultimately seem to determine the validity of what they are talking about. The process of argument itself as it goes on seems to generate hatred as opposed
to simple passion. This is reflected in these very posts. Some posts seem to project a feeling that some other posts or the subject itself actually does them physical harm from the page.
What happens here on these pages is an example of how delicate is the part of the brain that
causes moral behavior and thinking and how easily it slips from control of the person.
Chris Hedges' earlier volume reflects the way, historically people;: societies; whole nations have fallen under the leadership of individuals whose morality and character is way inferior to them as individuals. The amount of responsibility that the most recent and highest developed part of the brain is too much for it to bear so that these individuals give up their individuality and identify themselves
with the patently immoral. The immoral leadership evolves into shallowness. ruthlessness and brutality.
At the same time individuals who have been abused or identify closely with the abused become paranoid to the extent that words from a page are perceived as doing them physical harm.
We need to get back to asking what is real evil and then ask how to prevent it. What is actual spirituality, on the other hand?
The web site cited below contains a compendium of contemporary studies of the science of evil. It includes an essay of how societies as whole become pathological. It chronicles the relationship between psychopaths and societies and how psychopaths come to dominate groups and nations. It relates how they empathise with
the dark side of normal individuals. It examines the difference between antisocial, asocial personalities such a serial killers
and true psychopaths. It reveals the fact that the population of psychopaths is endemic throughout all regions of the world.
Most importantly it lays out pathways in which to study the etiology of psychopathology and brain damage, especial the frontal region.
Then the purpose is to ask is how all this can be prevented. How can we acquire immunity to evil tendencies before they break out as a disease such as the Iraq war?
It ask such questions as to how pregnancies and birthing can be improve to prevent the occurrence of serious brain damage in some four percent of the population? How can up bringing of children be improved to protect them
from abuse so as to not enhance the effects of brain damage? How can we avoid having a population of brain damaged and traumatized soldiers among us?
(Dis assembled to conform to posting rules:)
http:/
/www.cassiopaea.org/
cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski_2.htm
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Posted by: stellabloo on Mar 22, 2008 3:44 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"People say that what we're all seeking is a meaning for life. I don't think that's what we're really seeking.
I think that what we're seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive. That's what it's all finally about, and that's what these [mythical] clues help us to find within ourselves."
The best scientific minds admit that, after all the evidence is in, we have no evidence FOR or AGAINST the existence of a Creator. Other than the fact of the fractional odds of life emerging as it has, considering that self-organization of increasing complexity IMHO COMPLETELY violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Which brings me back to Point A, see above ;)
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» No evidence for or against...
Posted by: morticia
» We can't run away from thermodynamics
Posted by: bornxeyed
» You can always....
Posted by: LeaderofMen
» RE: You can always....
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» RE: You can always....
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» RE: You can always....
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» The Power of Myth and Joseph Campbell
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» RE: But we can't run away from our common humanity - sink or swim
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Posted by: SamFox on Mar 22, 2008 3:51 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any Christian who believes the above is out of touch with the Bible teaching about salvation. According to the New Test. no Christian will be made perfect 'till Jesus returns. While the Bible teaches that Christians should be salt & light in the world, influencing society by example & the love of Christ, it does not teach that we are supposed to bring about a perfect society. This would be an impossible goal any way since total perfection is attainable only at Christ's one & only 2nd advent (no Rapture or left behind). No Christian living on this planet is perfect nor can they be till then.
Though the N.T. does mention something about 'common salvation', the term is used in reference to the salvation all Christians share, not that we humans are moving along towards a common salvation which at some point all humanity will be defaulted into. That is not a Bible teaching.
One big problem for Christians are the CIPOs. (Christian In Profession Only.) GWB for example has hurt us very badly in this & many other regards. Clinton did not do us any favors either.
SamFox
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» Right you are
Posted by: billfurioso
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Posted by: SamFox on Mar 22, 2008 4:01 PM
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This is a cool site that shortens long URLs for space saving. Check it out. It works very well.
SamFox
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Posted by: purereason on Mar 22, 2008 4:31 PM
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Posted by: JP-1 on Mar 22, 2008 5:09 PM
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Posted by: radiomorning on Mar 22, 2008 5:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our nations and communities have often been hijacked by those citing religious belief, but I agree with Hedges that religion itself is not neccesarily the root of these things.
While I am still against organized religion as a matter of intellectual principle, it is not the words of Jesus or Muhammed that cause us to kill and hate. I think it is something inherently human, or animal, that causes our willingness to kill. A reptile brain territoriality leftover from our ancestors.
I disagree with Hedges, however, that we have no hope of bettering ourselves, not perfecting, but bettering ourselves and increasing our chances of making it through this intellectual adolescece through education and enlightenment. It would be hopeless not to believe it was possible.
And why, then, would I be so against killing and hatred when others who have been co-opted by some group claiming to have 'the truth,' be it a religious or atheist truth, are so willing to kill?
It is the truth itself which is dangerous. I admit that we are all looking and none of us have found, and that keeps me from having a reason to hate.
There is no room left for absolutes in our pursuit of better understanding of ourselves and the cosmos. Theism and Atheism are both absolutes by definition, and therefore we can accept neither.
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Posted by: LRayn on Mar 22, 2008 6:47 PM
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I am an atheist, and so are many of my friends. Not one of us would agree with Hedge's portrayal of us.
The whole point of being an atheist (or scientist) is to accept that one's hypotheses about the world are not always true. Every belief must be tested in the real world. Belief without evidence is merely "faith," something atheists do not have.
Social progress, as in equality, sustainability, etc., takes a lot of hard work. It's not guaranteed.
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Posted by: racetoinfinity on Mar 22, 2008 7:51 PM
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Ken Wilber's "Integral Spirituality"
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Posted by: snarlah on Mar 22, 2008 7:51 PM
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» RE: I'm an athiest and I don't know where you get off being among the people who are afraid of us
Posted by: kahoma
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Posted by: oxheadone on Mar 22, 2008 8:26 PM
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Posted by: Ripcord on Mar 22, 2008 9:38 PM
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However, he unrealistically asserts that we must "accept the severe limitations of being human."
Thus, he categorically faults atheists Harris and Hitchens for believing in progress and ignoring this reality of human frailty.
He writes that, "Those who insist we are morally advancing as a species are deluding themselves."
But his view stems from seeing the relationship between reality and delusion as mutually exclusive polar opposites, that one is the simple negation of the other.
This leads to pessimism.
If, however, one sees their relationship as foci of their functions, it can lead to optimism.
When reality is the focus, we can see that it functions to clarify delusion; the depth of delusions are unfolded.
When delusion is the focus, we can see that it functions to expand the horizons of reality; virtue and judgment are informed.
The two notions interact with one another.
Their nondual unity is much more dynamic and complex.
They are working companions, they need each other.
These notions can be used pragmatically as tools to guide both atheists and believers to a better world together.
(see: Hee-Jin Kim, "Dogen on meditation and thinking: a reflection on his view of Zen," State University of New York, 2007)
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Posted by: logansafi on Mar 23, 2008 12:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading the comments by other atheists against his commentary about them, illustrates the point perfectly, as they do react to criticism in a manner clearly as intolerant as most religious zealots are. In fact, many of the atheists commenting about Hedge's article, seemed quite simply to not understand any at all of what they were reading. Kind of like conservative, religious zealots do when they read something more rational than their own nonsense. They get lost, too.
I am an atheist myself, and I laughed quite a bit at Hedges description of liberal American religious types. He described them perfectly, too, just as he did with the dumb-ass type atheists he is speaking out against. But back to what he says about the idiot atheist crowd out there, of which there are so very many that join this religion of the always supposedly rational.
Hedges is right. Many atheists make science and their belief that technological progress is some sort of grand trump suit into an intolerant religion of its own. I am a socialist, but there simply is no getting away that the Socialist Movement has oftentimes religiously thought that, if only the all-good working class could just get ahold of the means of production???, then technology on a mass scale would begin to solve all. That's what led Russian Soviet leaders to build overly massive factories of all sorts. They screwed things up quite well with their love for supposedly super rational production missing the mark quite badly.
In other words, logical linearism can be a rather deluded religion of its own and can also screw things up almost as bad as the religious crowds do. We are not in some march to a great future, whether it be the Kingdumb of Heaven under God, are some type of material heaven under control of a logical atheist population.
Thanks, alternet, for publishing this great commentary by Hedges. Don't let all the commentaries saying that this is a supposedly unworthy article by Hedges make you have second thoughts and move toward censoring more material that might be deemed offensive to these Oh so sensitive genius atheist types. They need to get off on thinking about themselves as being so damn great compared to believers in Gods, when that is not always so the case.
An Atheist
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» Utopian Dreams
Posted by: kag123
» RE: Hedges is right, there are a lot of dumb, bull-shitty atheists around these days
Posted by: Doubtom
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Posted by: thornwolf on Mar 23, 2008 5:10 AM
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» RE: veryone is God
Posted by: mark
» RE: veryone is God
Posted by: radiomorning
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Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 23, 2008 5:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I am not as pessimistic about our species as Hedges seems to be. Not because I have emperic evidence but because I believe that "optimism is a MORAL imperative"-a phrase I coined in 1985.
So we must choose to live as if what Martin Luther King said "that the arc of human history bends toward justice" is true.
This human choice of hope despite sometimes evidence to the contrary is faith at its necessary essence.
This is why I call myself a spiritual humanist.
Dr.Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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» RE: Hedges IS Correct....
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Hedges IS Correct....
Posted by: wwittman
» RE: Hedges IS Correct....
Posted by: drricklippin
» Reason, faith, science, religion--all depend on what you do with it.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: eason, faith, science, religion--all depend on what you do with it.
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Hedges IS Correct....
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Hedges IS Correct....
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» RE: Hedges IS Correct....
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Mar 23, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The description of what atheism is is obviously incorrect. The reason why atheists advocate science and reason is because it works.
And it has steadily worked for hundreds of years. To wit. Let's just use Christianity as our example since it is the prevailing religion in the US.
For centuries it was believed that Jesus was born of a virgin birth. That was before the texts that were systemically burned by Christians, and purportedly lost, were recovered. When they were finally rediscovered it was determined that pagans had long since held virgin births to be the norm. Christianity had simply absorbed this concept so that they could bring pagans into their religion.
Science. Knowledge.
Religious scholars believed that all languages were derived from Hebrew. Thus, an attempt to trace back all languages to Hebrew was begun. Lucky for us, they worked on it really hard. But what did they discover? They discovered that languages were NOT all derived from Hebrew because Hebrew was NOT the first language. Science. Knowledge.
It was believed for over 1000 years that the Earth was the center of the entire universe. Believed. Until observation took over. Then science and knowledge determined that the Earth was not the center of the universe.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
It's all about belief being superceded by KNOWLEDGE. Religion is always about BELIEF. Religion is always eroded with KNOWLEDGE. That is why all 'good' religions, eg, the ones that are mainstream and those that are fundamentalist in nature MUST by their very definition be hostile toward knowledge.
That is why advocates of religion always always always dispute facts. Facts get in the way of belief.
The advancement of civilization is always behind the knowledge curve. It is NEVER and WILL never be behind a belief curve. In fact, it is clear and obvious that the more fundamentalist a culture is the more steeped they are in BELIEF.
Atheists hold that it is knowledge that paves the way to a more advanced society. And advancement has happened over the centuries DESPITE the destructive nature of religion.
I do not use the word 'destructive' lightly. All cultures that hold firm to beliefs are destructive in nature. Enlightenment is not possible. Advancement is met with derision. Thought is suspect. Look at the Inquisition to see how this played out. Look at Muslim extremists today to see how this is playing out right now (yes, there are other factors at work with them: US involvement in their land, their own country's rulers, etc.).
Belief is the issue here. Belief vs. knowledge.
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» RE: The Steady Erosion of Religion
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: The Steady Erosion of Religion
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: The Steady Erosion of Religion
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» RE: The Steady Erosion of Religion
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: The Steady Erosion of Spirituality, not Religion
Posted by: purereason
» Your belief in knowledge is simplistic.
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» RE: Your belief in knowledge is simplistic.
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» RE: Your belief in knowledge is simplistic.
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» "Only one is right"?
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» RE: "Only one is right"?
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» Religion also has questions.
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» RE: eligion also has questions.
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» RE: eligion also has questions.
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» Questions
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» RE: Questions
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» RE: Questions
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» RE: Questions
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» RE: Questions
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» RE: Questions
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» A reporter asked a Navajo...
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» RE: Questions
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Posted by: aalif ba ta tha on Mar 23, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Atheists who point this out are not dogmatic utopians, they are just subjecting religion to the rigors of scientific criticism.
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» RE: happy easter
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» What?
Posted by: billfurioso
» RE: What?
Posted by: aalif ba ta tha
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Posted by: bar5608 on Mar 23, 2008 9:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you. bar5608.
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» RE: Mr.
Posted by: radiomorning
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Posted by: rapideye23 on Mar 23, 2008 10:26 AM
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It is possible for humans to live in community with the world, the problem is not that we are flawed it's just that we forgot, long ago, how to live by the natural laws that govern all life. Not only did we set ourselves outside of those laws by believng that we are superior to all other life, but, also by believing we are intrinsically flawed. It excuses us from f**king up the planet, because , after all we can't help it, we're flawed. All we have to remember is to live by the laws that support all life. They are much like the laws of aerodynamics; you can defy them for a brief period, but, if you go too long, you will crash.
These laws are: Take only what you need. Don't kill off the competition or the competitions food source. Fight only for survival, or self-defense.
To learn more about this philosophy on the laws of nature and how humans fit into them read ISHMAEL by Daniel Quinn.
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» Humans as flawed is myth
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» RE: Humans as flawed is myth
Posted by: rapideye23
» Sorry, Man Is A Selfish Little Bastard
Posted by: sofla100
» Humans are not naturally "selfish little bastards"
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Sorry, Man Is A Selfish Little Bastard
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Posted by: tclaverdure on Mar 23, 2008 10:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: dcotner on Mar 23, 2008 12:18 PM
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Posted by: SatanicJamboree on Mar 23, 2008 1:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Atheism is an "ism"...i.e., it is a belief system of its own. To say it's simply "non-belief" is disingenuous--abstaining from embracing some belief system about the nature of the universe and the existence or non-existence of God is agnosticism--a true "non-belief" perspective by definition. Making a pronouncement that there IS no god, that you will not entertain the belief of anything beyond a purely materialistic, mechanistic conception of the universe IS a belief system.
I do not believe in any recognizable conception of a deity in the modern, western tradition--but I cannot say that I'm an atheist, and I eschew that label--because that's an "ism" that I find--like Hedges--to be too often just as doctrinaire, just as intolerant and just as morally repugnant as any other form of fundamentalism.
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» RE: Atheists Commentary
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Atheists Commentary
Posted by: bornxeyed
» A Matter of Semantics
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: pzbrawl on Mar 23, 2008 3:26 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. Hedges says we atheists “propose a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason.” We propose _nothing_ with respect to salvation. Nor do we speak of “perfect” individuals or societies.
3. Contradicting himself within one paragraph, Hedges admits Yugoslav religious leaders “signed on for the slaughter directed by ethnic nationalist leaders in Zagreb, Belgrade and Sarajevo”, yet he claims “religion had nothing to do with the war.” For that to be so, Yugoslav religious leaders would have to have zero influence. Very unlikely.
4. “New atheists” do not hold that “we will overcome the flaws of human nature.” That is a straw man.
5. Yes, Hitchens supports war in many contexts. That is not an argument against either old or new atheism.
6. No scientific evolutionist “posits that human beings can transcend their natures and create a human paradise.” Hedges' suggestion that they do is nuts.
7. To cite Augustine and Freud against Dawkins and Dennett is farce. So is misrepresenting Dawkins and Dennett as purveying “sqalid little belief systems”.
It's odd to see a hothead like Hedges misidentifying rationalists as mirrors of himself. It makes you wonder.
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» Philosophers of science identify it as a belief system.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Philosophers of science identify it as a belief system.
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» "Science is...a methodology." Faith in trial and error.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "Science is...a methodology." Faith in trial and error.
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: "Science is...a methodology." Faith in trial and error.
Posted by: Spot
» Science and religion include irrationalities, while not always the same ones.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: efuting Hedges
Posted by: texshelters
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Posted by: johnclark on Mar 23, 2008 3:56 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had no clue they even existed until I posted a pro homeopathy comment here one day. Not only do they hate God, they also hate alternative medicine.
It it interesting to see how they talk about religion but only mean Abrahamic religion, as those billions of us who have other religions don't exist. Ethnocentric is maybe the word I'm looking for. I've been using the term fundamentalist-atheist to describe them myself; I'm glad to see the term getting into wide use. The best way to destroy a germ is by sunlight.
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» RE: Crazies w/zero knowledge = Rational Skepticism
Posted by: texshelters
» RE: Crazies w/zero knowledge = Rational Skepticism
Posted by: Spot
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Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 23, 2008 4:36 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» hitler was a christian
Posted by: rapideye23
» RE: In America's Nuke Labs, Scientists Think They Are "Advancing Freedom," Science is Value Neutral
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: Stopthehate on Mar 23, 2008 5:49 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's very true. Our technological advances through science have not seemed to improve life, but only make it worst in many ways. On the other hand, I've never been to a single church that believes we can create some sort Utopia on this side of the grave, as Mr. Hedges accuses churches of doing along with those who worship science. Every church I have been to talks about sin, forgiveness of sin through God, and the ultimate destruction of mankind because of sin, like in the Book of Revelations. Also, there is one thing that really confuses me about what Mr. Hedges wrote here. Mr. Hedges believes in Original Sin, but mentions absolutely nothing about the resolution to such a dilemma.
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» RE: Forgiveness?
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: BenjamminH on Mar 23, 2008 7:08 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the dull man who is always sure and the sure man who is always dull.
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Posted by: Turiye on Mar 23, 2008 7:19 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This site as well as CD do not tolerate inhumanity, insults, casting dispersions on anothers character, rascism and pure hatred of others. You should read the Constitution and THE BILL OF RIGHTS, as in Amendment.I.
Go home to your silly hate filled blogs, Thanks Chris, they put your book at #1 on the NYT Best Seller list by acting as you explained to a tee!
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Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 23, 2008 7:55 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rick Lippin
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» RE: Another Relevant But True Cliche
Posted by: mark
» RE: Another Relevant But True Cliche
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: Longdream on Mar 23, 2008 8:15 PM
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And who in the the hell is Sam Harris?
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Posted by: texshelters on Mar 23, 2008 9:17 PM
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Why is it dangerous to tell the truth about religion and what people do in the name of these religions. Why is it harmful to point out lies and fabrications? Certainly, Hitchens is not kind and generalizes a bit much. He does it to make his point.
Tex Shelters
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Posted by: independent1 on Mar 23, 2008 9:33 PM
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Balkans: who cares, could be one response. After all - those people have been murdering each other since the days of Vlad Dracule.
Atheism vs Religion: again, who cares because that conflict is obviously part of the extremist, polarized mind set which has plagued early 21st Century America.
I do think that people aught to be alarmed at the amount of influence over our politicians "enjoyed" by the religious right. I also agree that atheism tends to be an extremist's answer to religion. Hedges touches on this when he says that religion and atheists both tend to argue from a utopian premise and he's right when he says they'd both commit or condone mass slaughter if it suited them. But then Hedges is concentrating on atheism as the primary evil - which I cannot believe. He's probably just trying to earn a living with these "filler" pieces for Alternet.
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Posted by: ankhet on Mar 24, 2008 8:24 AM
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So far, they are right. The vengeful desert god must go. He's a bad example. The people of the book need a better book.
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 24, 2008 8:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it interesting that so many people still consider atheism to be a belief system. I used to think that the difference between atheism and agnosticism was that atheists are somehow "against" god, while agnostics "don't know." However, I've learned that atheism is a lack of belief in god, not a "hatred" of god. (Just as "amoral" means "without morals," and not "against morals" and "alexic" means "without the ability to read" instead of "against reading.")
It's also interesting that, quite often, Christians post here that non-believers "hate" god or "hate" Jesus. That's pretty much nonsense. I'm an agnostic - leaning toward atheism - and I most certainly do not hate god or Jesus. I simply do not believe that anyone can know god's characteristics or that the man who walked the earth 2,000 years ago was god personified. (Like Kurt Vonnegut, I believe that what Jesus taught was so wonderful, what difference does it make if he was god or not.)
Not believing in Santa does not mean a person "hates" the idea of Santa Clause - or any other fairy tale or religion that has somehow gone out of style. Very few people would contend that not believing in Zeus or Athena constitutes a "belief system," although it's possible that some Christians actually do hate the whole idea of Zeus or any other non-Christian god. I can't attest to that for sure.
Along the same lines, believing in the findings of science is not a "belief system." Perhaps one could argue that a belief in science as the cure for all man's ills is a "belief system," but that's stretching it.
Science is a method, a discipline, and an ongoing investigation. It's not an end in itself, and those who study science or utilize the scientific method in order to further their understanding of the world don't stop investigating just because they have reached certain conclusions.
For example, biologists don't simply state that evolution is the answer to all questions concerning creation and life. They continue to search for clues, information, and new evidence. This is consistent with the scientific method.
Science and religion are not comparable. Religion in all its forms is mostly mythology. There may be some historical facts involved, but it relies on a lot of elaboration and interpretation far beyond what physical evidence supplies. Once established, few deviations are accepted. No facts are necessary.
Science relies on physical evidence, investigation, and controlled studies to increase learning and understanding, not to come to stock conclusions that are written in stone. All scientific information is open to expansion and enhancement as new experiments and new methods of gathering data are uncovered.
All of this might be considered a matter of semantics, but there is an inherent difference between belief systems and methodologies. Religions are belief systems. Science is a methodology.
There is also a big difference between a belief system and a lack of belief. Atheism is a lack of belief. Trying to turn it into just another religion twists the argument around and allows true believers to say, "Well, you atheists have your religion and I have mine." It's absurd.
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» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: maddy
» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: Spot
» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: Spot
» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: Intellect
» Maybe that's where I heard of "unanticipated consequences" in science.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: Spot
» RE: Complex Subjects
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: cherry2qtr on Mar 24, 2008 8:56 AM
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Jesus was a radical, Hitler, Reagan and the current Bush were or are reactionaries.
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Posted by: MrX on Mar 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe Chris Hedges is right. Anyone who is self righteous is a threat to other people. It's not a religion issue, it's an I'm better than you are issue. A person can use anything to tell themselves they are somehow better than another group of people.
Humans are irrational emotional beings. The best documentary I have seen that explains what Mr Hedges is talking about is Century of Self
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Posted by: ceti on Mar 25, 2008 1:11 AM
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Atheism is supposed to free us from dogma, not adopt new ones. We are supposed to question everything, especially authority, but also feel a shared kinship with suffering humanity, recognizing full well we only have each other in the absurd scheme of things.
Moreover, Atheists that proselytize are just as bad as missionaries. Aren't we supposed live and let live?
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» RE: Popping self-righteousness
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: Dboy on Mar 25, 2008 5:08 AM
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dboy
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Posted by: purereason on Mar 25, 2008 8:43 AM
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“Globed from the atoms, falling slow or swift
I see the suns, I see the systems lift
Their forms; and even the systems and the suns
Shall go back slowly to the eternal drift”
The Universe and all beings in it are the products of the System of Life which some called the Truth. The System is not the product of our reasoning as it exists prior to our life. Though the World that belongs to the System must be sacred to those who speak of God it is not so as these faiths project their systems sacred. Christ called the Real World to which we are born the ‘Kingdom of God’; that was the Vedic view of life too. Eckhart, the German theologian (1260-1327) said: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a treasure which is hid in a field, saith Christ. This field is the soul- where in the treasure of the Kingdom of God lieth hidden. In the soul, therefore, are God and all the creatures blessed.” The main Upanishads (India) deal with relating ourselves with this World that belongs to the System; the source of Vedic knowledge was the same World. Usually this state is attained by delinking the mind from the sensory perceptions, the highest state of meditation. The realization of the knowledge that belongs to the System was known in ancient India as ‘sruthi’, elsewhere this is attributed to an angel.
Carl Gustav Jung, the father of Analytical Psychology, said: "The transcendent function does not proceed without aim and purpose, but leads to the revelation of the essential man. It is in the first place a purely natural process, which may in some cases pursue its course without the knowledge or assistance of the individual, and sometimes forcibly accomplish itself in the face of opposition. The meaning and purpose of the process is the realization, in all its aspects, of the personality originally hidden away in the embryonic germ-plasm; the production and unfolding of the original, potential wholeness.” (Two Essays on Analytical Psychology) Usually this regaining of the real mind comes as a reaction to the clouding of consciousness by the products of our reasoning/s.
For more Pure Reason
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» "Extravagant Platonism" is the name given today to what you describe.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: Malkavian on Mar 25, 2008 3:22 PM
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I have come to believe that religious people, even such self-declared "moderates" as Hedges, are perhaps inately unable to appreciate the simple - and in fact tedios and utterly trivial - idea that it is by far in the interest of our civilized society to USE REASON instead of faith to decide what to do.
Indeed, Sam Harris takes issue with the moderates, and I'm not surprised this has infuriated a bunch of people since, statistically speaking, most people in the West tends towards moderate viewpoints.
At the core it is simple. As long as someone is willing to look at the world using reason it's possible to ... well ... reason with that person. When someone simply BELIEVES. PERIOD. Really absolutely believes (and as such _belief_ is the psychological state of accepting something as true in the absence of logic or evidence). Well, if you have ANY conflict with that person you may as well draw your sword and pray you plunge it into his or her heart first. Because once we stop talking, once we stop ideas from being expressed AND corrected in a universal, meaningful way there is only violence left.
As if that weren't enough, I can only shudder at the thought that many of these faith-based people are informed of their life's truths through books that often glorify hideos violence and preach the utter wrongness of everyone else who does not share the absolute truth they themselves believe in.
But oh my ... couldn't it all just boil down to economics? Yeah, that's the ticket. Couldn't they simply be murdering each other and oftentimes us because of pecuniary concerns?
Enter someone who knows eks-Jugoslavia.
Yet I cannot shake a thought. How come all those lines ALWAYS cut with surgical precision along the lines of religious beliefs? I've yet to see a nation where there are two groups of people divides along a line that looks like someone just flipped a coin and assigned Bob to the Ebs and John to the Ubs.
Sorry, but I'm just not convinced that a bit of a bad economy turns someone into a lunatic that flies planes into buildings or bombs abortions clinics. For someone to do the genocide thing it just takes something more.
As history shows theres been many economic crashes, yet many of them have not in the least been followed by this kind of murderous behavior.
Except maybe in one respect. We've seen crisis before. What often happens, as seen during various crisis in the USA, is an increase in racism. Specifically how the majority of WASP and other caucasians turn to hatred against gooks, niggers, spicks and whatever "cute" names racists are employing (and let's not forget people who have the wrong kind of sex). All in all just a cutesy little fallback on irrational belief and a complete disregard for the honest handling of evidence.
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