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Rights and Liberties

The Dangerous Atheism of Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris

By Chris Hedges, Free Press. Posted March 22, 2008.


From demonizing Muslims to believing we can use science for our own moral advancement, the New Atheists preach a dangerous faith.
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The following is adapted from the new book by Chris Hedges, I Don't Believe in Atheists (Free Press, 2008).

I flew to Los Angeles in May of 2007 to debate Sam Harris, the author of The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, in UCLA's cavernous Royce Hall. I debated Christopher Hitchens, who wrote God is Not Great, two days later in San Francisco. I paid little attention, until these two public debates, to the positions of the new atheists, writers that also include Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennet. Those are many people of great moral probity and courage who seek meaning outside of formal religious structures, who reject religious language and religious ritual and define themselves as atheists. There are also many religious figures that in the name of one god or another sanctify intolerance, repression and violence. There is nothing intrinsically moral about being a believer or a nonbeliever.

These New Atheists attack a form of religious belief many of us hate. I wrote a book called American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America. I am no friend of Christian radicals. We dislike the same people. We do not dislike them for the same reason. This is not a small difference.

The New Atheists embrace a belief system as intolerant, chauvinistic and bigoted as that of religious fundamentalists. They propose a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason. The utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being, the idea that we are moving towards collective salvation, is one of the most dangerous legacies of the Christian faith and the Enlightenment. Those who believe in the possibility of this perfection often call for the silencing or eradication of human beings who are impediments to human progress. They turn their particular good into a universal good. They are blind to their own corruption and capacity for evil. They soon commit evil, not for evil's sake but to make a better world.

I started Harris' book when it was published but soon put it aside. His facile attack on a form of religious belief I detest, his childish simplicity and ignorance of world affairs, as well as his demonization of Muslims, made the book tedious, at its best, and often idiotic and racist. His assertion that the war in the former Yugoslavia, for example, was caused by religion was ridiculous. I was in the former Yugoslavia, including in the Bosnian capital Sarajevo when it was under siege, as the Balkan bureau chief for the New York Times. While religious institutions and their leaders enthusiastically signed on for the slaughter directed by ethnic nationalist leaders in Zagreb, Belgrade and Sarajevo, religion had nothing to do with the war.

The war had far more to do with the economic collapse of Yugoslavia than religion or ancient ethnic hatreds. His assertion that Muslim parents welcome the death of children who die as suicide bombers -- or that suicide bombers are the logical result of a belief in Islam -- could have been written only by someone who never sat in the home of a grieving mother and father in Gaza who has just lost their child. I did not take Harris seriously. This was a mistake.

I was raised in a church where my father, a Presbyterian minister, spent his career speaking out, often at some personal cost, in support of the civil rights movement, the Vietnam anti-war movement and the gay rights movement. The religious figures I knew, and the ones I sought to emulate when I was a seminarian at Harvard Divinity School, included Dr. Martin Luther King, Dorothy Day, the Rev. William Sloan Coffin, the Salvadoran Archbishop Oscar Romero and Father Daniel Berrigan. It was possible to admire these men and women and what they stood for, and hold in little regard institutional religion. It was possible to find in the Christian faith meaning and purpose while acknowledging the flaws in the Christian system and rejecting the morally indefensible passages in the Bible.

The institutional church has often used its power and religious authority to sanctify cruelty and exclusion. The self-righteous smugness and suffocating piety of religious leaders, along with the habit of speaking on behalf of people they never meet, are characteristic of many liberal and conservative churches. The church often likes the poor but doesn't like the smell of the poor. I graduated from seminary and decided, largely because of my distaste for the hypocrisy of the church, not to get ordained. I left the United States to report on the conflicts in Central America. I rarely go to church now, and when I do, often roll my eyes at the inanity of the sermons and the self-righteousness of many of the congregants, who appear to believe they are "honorary" sinners.

The liberal church, attacked by the atheists as an ineffectual "moderate" religion and by the fundamentalists as a "nominal" form of Christianity, is, as their critics point out, a largely vapid and irrelevant force. It may not support the violent projects of apocalyptic killing championed by atheists such as Harris or Hitchens and these Christian radicals, but it also does not understand how the world works or the seduction of evil. The liberal church is a largely middle class, bourgeoisie phenomenon, filled with many people who have profited from industrialization, the American empire and global capitalism. They often seem to think that if we can be nice and inclusive everything will work out.

There is nothing in human nature or human history to support the idea that we are morally advancing as a species or that we will overcome the flaws of human nature. We progress technologically and scientifically, but not morally. We use the newest instruments of technological and scientific progress to create more efficient forms of killing, repression and economic exploitation, and to accelerate environmental degradation. There is a good and a bad side to human progress. We are not moving towards a glorious utopia. We are not moving anywhere.

Religious institutions, however, should be separated from the religious values imparted to me by religious figures, including my father. Most of these men and women frequently ran afoul of their own religious authorities. Religion, real religion, was about fighting for justice, standing up for the voiceless and the weak, reaching out in acts of kindness and compassion to the stranger and the outcast, living a life of simplicity, finding empathy and defying the powerful. It was about caring for the other. Spirituality was not defined by "how it is with me," but the tougher spirituality of resistance, the spirituality born of struggle, of the fight with the world's evils. This spirituality, vastly different from the narcissism of modern spirituality movements, was eloquently articulated by Dr. King and the Lutheran minister Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was imprisoned and put to death by the Nazis.

Many of these atheists, like the Christian fundamentalists, support the imperialist projects and preemptive wars of the United States as a necessity in the battle against terrorism and irrational religion. They divide the world into superior and inferior races, those who are enlightened by reason and knowledge and those who are governed by irrational and dangerous religious beliefs. Hitchens and Harris describe the Muslim world, where I spent seven years, most of them as the Middle East bureau chief for the New York Times, in language that is as racist, crude and intolerant as that used by Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell. They are a secular version of the religious right. They misuse Darwin and evolutionary biology, just as the Christian fundamentalists misuse the Bible, by trying to argue that we can evolve morally -- something Darwin never asserted. They are as anti-intellectual as the Christian Right.

And while the atheists do not have much power and are not a threat to the democratic state, they engage in the same chauvinism and call for the same violent utopianism of the radical Christian Right. They sell this under secular banners, but this does not excuse it. They believe, like the Christian Right, that we are moving forward to a paradise, a state of human perfection made possible by science and reason. They argue, like these Christian radicals, that some human beings, maybe many human beings, have to be eradicated to achieve this better world.

Harris, echoing the blood lust of Hitchens, calls, in his book The End of Faith, for a nuclear first strike against the Islamic world. He defends torture as a logical form of interrogation. He, like all utopians, has reduced millions of human beings and cultures he knows nothing about to primitive impediments to his vision of a better world.

"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry?" Harris asks. "If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own.

Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime -- as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day -- but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe." Harris reduces a fifth of the world's population to a vast, primitive enemy. He blithely accepts that we may have to murder "tens of millions of people in a single day." His bigotry, and the bigotry of all who dehumanize others, sets the stage for indiscriminate slaughter and atrocity. The people to be killed, we are told, are not really distinct individuals. They do not have hopes and aspirations. They only appear human. They must be destroyed because of what they represent, what lurks beneath the surface of their human form. This dehumanization, especially by those who live in a society with the technological capacity to carry out acts of massive industrial slaughter, is terrifying. The new atheists see only one truth -- their truth. Human beings must become like them, think like them and adopt their values, which they insist are universal, or be banished from civilized society. All other values, which they never investigate or examine, are dismissed as inferior.

We live in an age of faith. We are assured we are advancing as a species towards a world that will be made perfect by reason, technology, science or the second coming of Jesus Christ. Evil can be eradicated. War has been declared on nebulous forces or cultures that stand as impediments to progress. Religion, if you are secular, is blamed for genocide, injustice, persecution, backwardness and intellectual and sexual repression. Secular humanism, if you are born again, is branded as a tool of Satan.

The folly of humankind, however, is pervasive. It infects all human endeavors. It has not exempted itself from institutional religion or the cult of science and reason. The greatest danger that besets us does not come from believers or atheists. It comes from those who, under the guise of religion, science or reason, imagine that we can free ourselves from the limitations of human nature and perfect the human species. Those who insist we are morally advancing as a species are deluding themselves. There is nothing in science or human history to support this idea. Human individuals can make moral advances, as can human societies, but they also make moral reverses. Our personal and collective histories are not linear.

This belief in inevitable moral progress, whether it comes in secular or religious form, is magical thinking. The secular version of this myth peddles fables no less fantastic, and no less delusional, than those preached from church pulpits. The battle under way in America is not a battle between religion and science. It is a battle between religious and secular fundamentalists. It is a battle between two groups intoxicated with the utopian and magical belief that humankind can protect itself and master its destiny.

These New Atheists, like all religious fundamentalists, fail to grasp the dark reality of human nature, our own capacity for evil and the morally neutral universe we inhabit. There is nothing in human nature or human history to support the idea that we are morally advancing as a species or that we will overcome the flaws of human nature. We progress technologically and scientifically, but not morally. We use the newest instruments of technological and scientific progress to create more efficient forms of killing, repression, economic exploitation and to accelerate environmental degradation as well as to nurture and sustain life. There is a good and a bad side to human progress. We are not moving towards a glorious utopia. We are not moving anywhere.

The New Atheists misuse Darwin and evolutionary biology as egregiously as the Christian fundamentalists misuse the Bible. Darwinism, which pays homage to the final and complete mastery of our animal natures, never posits that human beings can transcend their natures and create a human paradise. It argues the opposite. The illusion of human progress, in the name of evolutionary biology, is actually anti-Darwinian. And in this the New Atheists are neither honest about science or Darwin. Science is used by them to supplant religion to provide meaning and hope. It is used to assuage these innate religious yearnings. Since scientific knowledge is cumulative, albeit morally neutral, it gives the illusion that human history and human progress is also cumulative. And in many ways science has simply replaced the faith our pre-modern ancestors had in God.

But more ominously, the New Atheists ignore the wisdom of Original Sin, as well as studies in cognitive behavior, that illustrate that human nature is often irrational and flawed. We are all governed, even in our moments of greatest lucidity, by unconscious forces. This understanding, whether achieved through Augustine or Freud, has been our most potent check on schemes of human perfectibility and utopian visions. But the New Atheists, like all believers in myth, refuse to listen. They peddle the alluring and enticing fantasy of inevitable moral and material progress. This vision is not based on science, history or reason. It is an act of faith. It is a form of the occult. It is no more scientific legitimacy than alchemy.

These New Atheists and Christian radicals have built squalid little belief systems that are in the service of themselves and their own power. They urge us forward into a nonreality-based world, one where force and violence, where self-exaltation and blind nationalism are an unquestioned good. They seek to make us afraid of what we do not know or understand. They use this fear to justify cruelty and war. They ask us to kneel before little idols that look and act like them, telling us that one day, if we trust enough in God or reason, we will have everything we desire.

I Don't Believe in Atheists is a call to reject simplistic and utopian visions. It is a call to accept the severe limitations of being human. It is a call to face reality, a reality which in the coming decades is going to be bleak and difficult. Those who are blinded by utopian visions inevitably turn to force to make their impossible dreams and their noble ideals real. They believe the ends, no matter how barbaric, justify the means. Utopian ideologues, armed with the technology and mechanisms of industrial slaughter, have killed tens of millions of people over the last century. They ask us to inflict suffering and death in the name of virtue and truth. The New Atheists, in the end, offer us a new version of an old and dangerous faith. It is one we have seen before. It is one we must fight.

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See more stories tagged with: sam harris, atheism, christopher hitchens, chris hedges

Chris Hedges, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter, is the author of "I Don't Believe in Atheists" (Free Press, 2008) and other books. He was the Middle East bureau chief for the "New York Times."

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Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Mar 22, 2008 12:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's forget you, better still

The Who

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» RE: Terrorist Posted by: muzunguhowru
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this. Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» What about Zionists? Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: What about Zionists? Posted by: emmas
» RE: What about Zionists? Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: What about Zionists? Posted by: Intellect
» I would.... Posted by: morticia
» The Dalai Lama met the Pope Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Please leave the Buddhists out of this. Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Terrorist Posted by: StrayCat
I am Heresy Incarnate
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal on Mar 22, 2008 12:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am Heresy Incarnate. I am frequently banned from sites such as AlterNet for disregarding their ideological bigotry and stating my well-informed and sincerely held opinions and beliefs. I dare not even name my own professed religious affiliation lest I share the fate of Syme the philologist.

It is truly strange to hold beliefs for which we are persecuted with impunity in allegedly free Western Civilization.

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» Psychobabbling Nonsense Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Years of solitary confinement is persecution. Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» and then... Posted by: Tombo
» RE: and then... Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» John 18:38 Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: John 18:38 Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: John 18:38 Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: John 18:38 Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: John 18:38 Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: John 18:38 Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: John 18:38 Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: John 18:38 Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: John 18:38 Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Haeresis est maxima, *********** non credere. Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Re: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: e: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: recj50
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Now that you mention it... Posted by: CanuckKid
» RE: Now that you mention it... Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Now that you mention it... Posted by: bornxeyed
» Crimethinking in the Free(sic) World Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Fair enough... Posted by: CanuckKid
» RE: Fair enough... Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: emmas
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: bcgirl125
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: Longdream
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Giacomo Puccini. Posted by: Longdream
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: donnee
» RE: I am Heresy Incarnate Posted by: Rapunzel
Both are boring
Posted by: primalscream on Mar 22, 2008 1:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religious fundamentalism and atheism are both oh-so-19th-century. That was the golden age of "absolute" truths, and people of small horizons always will absolutize whatever is in front of them. Might be the local religion, might be the latest science, might be their own egos. Sadly, this problem has always been with us and likely always will be. People of broader horizons will be humbled by what they don't know -- and they'll try to keep science and philosophy, two useful human pursuits despite their sniping at each other, asking questions proper to their competencies. The problem with many premodern societies was that they tried to do science philosophically, and the problem with many modern societies is that they try to do philosophy scientifically. The first introduces too much mystery, the second not enough. Personally, I like the borderland between religion and science. It's a fuzzy zone -- which means to me they are strangely linked, like the crease of a paper folded back on itself -- and it's a place where belief becomes less important than thought and action.

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» good comment Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Both are boring Posted by: SkeeterVT1
» RE: Both are boring Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Both are boring Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Both are boring Posted by: primalscream
» RE: Both are boring Posted by: talkville
» Zionism is Anit-Ameircan Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Zionism is Anit-Ameircan Posted by: talkville
» RE: Zionism is Anit-Ameircan Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
The White Noise of Chris Hedges
Posted by: Lector on Mar 22, 2008 2:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chris Hedges can say little that is nice about churches, the people who run them and religions in general, an area I am in agreement with but it’s unfortunate he believes atheism to be an intolerant, chauvinistic and bigoted belief system. To the contrary, it is a disbelief in the existence of God that requires evidence, that uses reason and logic and which only asks for something other than magical thinking and the use of the old argument to ignorance fallacy in the spreading and exploitation of Christianity. You won’t find atheists burning down churches or using their “belief” system as an excuse to teach Intelligent Design as a real science on par with evolution in schools and unlike fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, atheists don’t seek the establishment of a theocracy as the ultimate goal.


“Many of these atheists, like the Christian fundamentalists, support the imperialist projects and preemptive wars of the United States” Besides the most celebrated exception, Christopher Hitchens, probably too intellectual for Hedges to understand, how many atheists compared to Christians in Congress voted to go to war against Iraq?


“Religion, real religion, was about fighting for justice, standing up for the voiceless and the weak, reaching out in acts of kindness and compassion to the stranger and the outcast, living a life of simplicity, finding empathy and defying the powerful.” “real religion”? This is where I begin to view Hedges as another fundamentalist nut. Atheists, non-believers, have also fought for justice, stood up for the voiceless, the weak, reached out in acts of kindness and compassion to strangers and outcasts…etc. So before the Bronze Age came along, when Christianity didn’t exist yet, none of this human compassion existed either I suppose.

Pointless

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» RE: You don't know what you are talking about Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Ever Read "We Have Some Planes?" Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» Not this one . . . Posted by: dustdevil
» Is Zionism a Religion? Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» EVERYTHING is "supernatural" Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: The White Noise of Chris Hedges Posted by: SatanicJamboree
Eminently reasonable
Posted by: talkville on Mar 22, 2008 2:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being, the idea that we are moving towards collective salvation, is one of the most dangerous legacies of the Christian faith and the Enlightenment. Those who believe in the possibility of this perfection often call for the silencing or eradication of human beings who are impediments to human progress. They turn their particular good into a universal good. They are blind to their own corruption and capacity for evil. They soon commit evil, not for evil's sake but to make a better world."

Calling attention to the complexities of the human condition, especially today in these social darwinistic and biologistic times is reasonable and sensible. We can't forget that consciousness and self-consciousness are but a bare Surface of the human being. We must each move carefully in those states of mind characterized as 'believing' and 'believing in' and think carefully about such processes as evaluation and value making.

Since Copernicus, centers are difficult to pin-point in experience and in values; since Darwin, it is not possible to detach our species from the tissues of nature and our planet. We're barely beginning, despite our immense reliance and pride in technologic and other advancements, and Hedges points out a useful corrective to enthusiasms which can easily lead to zealotries either facts containing values or values containing facts.

Dialog presupposes equality; otherwise it's just a game of dominance and submission, compromise and capitulation. The USA is in dire need and Hedges' points are well worth the read.

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» Did you read the same quote? Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Did you read the same quote? Posted by: carcinoid112
» Hard-core atheists? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Hard-core atheists? Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Hard-core atheists? Posted by: Dboy
» Aboslutely Posted by: bornxeyed
» Well put Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Did you read the same quote? Posted by: SatanicJamboree
Well, let's liven it up a bit
Posted by: Rune on Mar 22, 2008 2:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about this: the popular atheism discussed in the article is a sort of fundamentalism of it's own. It asserts the impossibility of any spiritual truth or experience as a given, then sets out to deny the existence of spiritual truth or experience at any cost and, failing that, to at least mock and belittle proponents of religion or spirituality in hopes that others will be too distracted to notice the logical failure of such tactics. This is pathetic.

I'll readily agree that science is interesting and useful. I will also point out that not everyone is particularly gifted in the abstract and critical thinking that is important to advancing science. Even so, most people can get a vague idea of what science is about and appreciate its appropriateness and usefulness in not only understanding the world, but creating it--which may be one in the same depending on which philosophical forks in the road you choose in approaching science.

That said, I find it just as easy to recognize that human beings are adept at perceiving and interpreting spiritual experiences. Spirituality is also useful in making sense of, coping with, and even changing the world, as many who have changed it have noted in some of their most impassioned comments on their diverse works. Asking whether spirituality is "real" is a bit like asking whether the magic of music, art, or poetry is "real." Trying to reduce spirituality to physical phenomena is as misguided as trying to understand music by measuring pressures waves in the air set in motion by musical instruments. That just ain't what it's all about.

What it is all about, in my opinion, is fundamental human creativity and awareness that adds richness and direction to life to the extent an individual gets it and gets into it. I think everyone can get into some aspect of spirituality if they allow themselves to explore and accept such experiences. It strikes me as odd that some are passionate about not only denying their own spirituality, but determined to deny it in others, too.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about spirituality, any more than science is inherently dangerous. Both, however, can and have been used to endanger and even kill people. Further, both have been twisted into excuses for shunning and harming others. We need not rid ourselves of either science or spirituality to be safe from these tendencies. Rather, we need to fully embrace sense of grace and morality just as firmly as we grasp the teachings of logic and experimentation to see past our fear of others who see the world differently and learn to coexist with them, if not be better off for having known them.

As the author notes, there are some aspects of religion that limit and distort spiritual understanding in ways that can be damaging to individuals and society at large. It is possible to point out those problems without stereotyping everyone who acknowledges the importance of their own spirituality as being such a threat. Is that really so difficult to understand? Or is it more a matter of certain devotees of science being so defensive of the limits of perception, communication, and certain aspects of epistemology that they feel they must lash out at any reminders of those shaky underpinnings of their preferred world view? I really do wonder sometimes.

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» RE: spirituality Posted by: agathena
» RE: spirituality Posted by: aonghus36
» As you wish Posted by: Rune
» RE: As you wish Posted by: mark
» RE: As you wish Posted by: StrayCat
» Richard Dawkins? Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: ichard Dawkins? Posted by: Bibsi
» Re: Richard Dawkins? Posted by: Rune
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins? Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins? Posted by: mark
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins? Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins? Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: e: Richard Dawkins? Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Richard Dawkins? Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: ichard Dawkins? Posted by: StrayCat
» RE: Well, let's liven it up a bit Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» More pollution Posted by: leafsong1
» Give Ambiguity a chance Posted by: Balanz
» Very good! Posted by: Rune
» RE: Very good! Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Mental Masturbation Posted by: Mycos
» EXCELLENT post Posted by: kwalla
Don't Fence Me In, or The Tyranny of Time ...
Posted by: gazooks on Mar 22, 2008 2:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A peculiarly thoughtful post, primalscream.

It occurs to me, that from a basic perceptual view, our fix on time as a linear event lends an unfortunate, perpetually frustrating bias and predisposition to reliance on these repetitively failing, mythical constructs of moral absolutism that lead to some "heaven".

And despite the explicitly humbling force of our still infant view of quanta and consciousness, there's this overriding acceptance by otherwise thinking people that we're somehow obligated to make pronouncements, take stands of belief and sell it as knowledge.

Just good biddness, I guess.

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You're not helping.
Posted by: Kevbo on Mar 22, 2008 3:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion, real religion, was about fighting for justice, standing up for the voiceless and the weak, reaching out in acts of kindness and compassion to the stranger and the outcast, living a life of simplicity, finding empathy and defying the powerful. It was about caring for the other.

Does Hedges not understand that all that above can be achieved, pursued and espoused in a more authentic manner without religion?

There are slight shades of David Hume in Hedges' declaration that we are morally stagnant. Harris and Hitchens are indicating that with reason as our guiding force, we can collectively as a civilization make more sophisticated and sound moral decisions.... and pass that on. Naturally, we can not expect the pursuit of logical and scientific truths over superstition to result in a rewriting of our genetic code or an improvement of neural pathways. I don't think Hedges actually understands what he was reading.

He makes many important points about religious fundamentalism but he really throws the baby out with the bathwater when he regards atheism.

It would appear from this excerpt that Hedges' book will only muddy the waters and not result in improved debate about religion, science, atheism et al. I expect it will just fortify some reactive people's distaste for atheism rather than inform anyone constructively.

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» RE: You're not helping. Posted by: dmaciewski
» Thomas Hobbes not Hume Posted by: Kevbo
» RE: Thomas Hobbes not Hume Posted by: Intellect
» RE: You're not helping. Posted by: newtype_alpha
We were all born atheist.
Posted by: emgscot51 on Mar 22, 2008 4:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of us accepted the religion taught by our parents and society. Some of us never did and we are constant prey to the religious. I used to be very tolerant of all religions but I have become truly weary of all the hypocricy of religion and I will no longer apologize for my lack of any god. Those of you who have a god should remember that you rejected all gods except the one you believe in: I merely rejected one more.
By the way, the title of the book is idiotic.

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» What the problem is... Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: What the problem is... Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What the problem is... Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: What the problem is... Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What the problem is... Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: What the problem is... Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: What the problem is... Posted by: Basenjis
» QUITE THE OPPOSITE of what? Posted by: YogiBear
On Pessimism
Posted by: THIAHB on Mar 22, 2008 4:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it impossible to accept Hedges' pessimism.

Despite two "world wars" in the 20th Century, the world-wide death toll from war was, in percentage terms, lower than at any time in history. Wars are becoming rarer, shorter and less lethal. I think that represents progress.

Hedges is right about one thing: atheists and fundamentalists alike cloak their lust for power in fancy rhetoric. However, to conclude that humans are incapable of moral advancement is an irrational response, a counsel of despair which in the end is just as crazy as believing in Utopia or the Rapture.

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» My point? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: On Pessimism Posted by: magne
» RE: On Pessimism Posted by: Cathyc
» Seriously... think about it... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» A brief history of violence Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: On Pessimism Posted by: THIAHB
» RE: On Pessimism Posted by: Intellect
» RE: On Pessimism Posted by: THIAHB
"You can't believe everything you read."
Posted by: billfurioso on Mar 22, 2008 4:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being, the idea that we are moving towards collective salvation, is one of the most dangerous legacies of the Christian faith..." (Chris Hedges)

That is not a "legacy of the Christian faith". Chris Hedges, as well as, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, all seem to be amassing popularity and money by writing about things they know little about. I'm quite tried of the publishing and promotion of people presented as "experts" on subjects they obviously know little about. What could possibly be the motivation behind such phenomena except to peddle controversy for profit?

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What Daddy God would that Be?
Posted by: Lois on Mar 22, 2008 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh well... so much for Thor and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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» RE: What Daddy God would that Be? Posted by: walldodger1969
» RE: What Daddy God would that Be? Posted by: carcinoid112
Atheism is a Belief System
Posted by: Urstrly on Mar 22, 2008 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As someone who greatly admired Hedges', "War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning," I find his arguments against atheism less compelling. True, atheists such as Hitchens and Harris are bound to system of belief that is just as dogmatic as any religion. True, they use it as a tool to place a blanket and dangerous condemnation of the Muslim world.

But it saddens me that Hedges seems to have turned away not only from religion but from spirituality and I can't discern his own belief system from which he attacks not only atheists but the religious right. If he finds religious liberalism too ineffectual, what drives him? Does he think he alone has the truth?

We may all be sinners (haven't met a perfect human yet) who collectively are capable of rationalizing great evils. But what I'd like to hear from Hedges is some evidence that he experiences the power of love to transform us as well.

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» I'm not a "sinner" Posted by: rancespergl
» RE: I'm not a "sinner" Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: I'm not a "sinner" Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System Posted by: Intellect
» As Aldous Huxley said... Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: You can't prove a negative Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Atheism is a Belief System Posted by: aonghus36
Well!
Posted by: pcushniesr on Mar 22, 2008 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hedges has certainly opened a can of worms here, every point of which cannot possibly be discussed in this forum. I'm certainly not going to take the time to re-read Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, Hitchens, and the many other writers who have contributed to this topic, but who never made the NYT best-seller list, just to refute Hedges. Been there, done that, thank you very much. But there are a couple of things I would like to mention.

"The new atheists see only one truth -- their truth. Human beings must become like them, think like them and adopt their values, which they insist are universal, or be banished from civilized society."

Not a bad idea. We should begin right away. I understand there's still lots of vacant land in Siberia where the New Gulags could be established. And who should decide who goes and who stays? Well, not to appear immodest, but I'll do it.

"Religion, if you are secular, is blamed for genocide, injustice, persecution, backwardness and intellectual and sexual repression. Secular humanism, if you are born again, is branded as a tool of Satan."

Believe it or not, Mr. Hedges, there are some issues on which one side is clearly right and the other clearly wrong. This is one of them. Atheism, good; religion, bad. Simple. Nobody is a tool of the devil because the devil does not exist, but atheism, if you will pardon the expression, is on the side of the angels.

But seriously, folks, the "new atheism" is like he tension of a spring, long compressed then suddenly released. It is energy long confined then let go. And if this energy and tension did not exit their prisons like Nelson Mandella, but more like Fidel Castro, well, that's just what circumstances demanded at the time. Get used to it, Chris. ol' buddy, ol' pal.

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» RE: Well! Right on Posted by: agathena
» in case you haven't noticed Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: in case you haven't noticed Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: in case you haven't noticed Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: in case you haven't noticed Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: in case you haven't noticed Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: in case you haven't noticed Posted by: happyhermit
Our reach exceeds our grasp
Posted by: Democritus on Mar 22, 2008 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whereas Hedges deplores the use to which utopian ideals are made by both certain religious fundamentalists and selected atheists--Pat Robertson and Christopher Hitchens being foremost representatives of their respective groups--it is not the striving for moral betterment that should incur his ire.

Although we know full well the aggressive spark that has been placed in our genetic structure, it doesn't always burst into the flame of hatred against other races and peoples. As David Hume pointed out, we have in our makeup not only the serpent, but also the dove. Whether one is religious,like St. Francis, or whether one is an atheist, like Hume, it does no harm to wish for a better world. Just think of Condorcet, unjustly imprisoned, still dreaming of the rights of man and the betterment of the human condition.

What motivates people like Robertson and Falwell, on the one hand, and Harris and Hitchens, on the other, is not their yearning for utopia, but their crabbed and narrow view of the world and their dislike of those who do not think the way they do. It is a failure of ethical resolve and a wilfull disregard of the fact that we're all descendants of "The Seven Daughters of Eve," all linked by our genetic heritage.

As for utopian ideals, I think Robert Browning had it right in his "Andrea del Sarto," when he had his protagonist say: "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?"

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» Not really Posted by: W SLaan
» RE: Not really Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Not really Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: what a stupid thing to say... Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: what a stupid thing to say... Posted by: carcinoid112
I'll Make It Simple
Posted by: left_libertarian on Mar 22, 2008 6:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Believe what you want, just do not force me to believe what you do or make it a crime for me to do what I wish to do as long as it does not harm you or anyone else.

John Stuart Mill said it more eloquently in 'On Liberty':

The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right... The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

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By ridiculing the ridiculous
Posted by: UnEasyOne on Mar 22, 2008 6:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Modern atheists provide cover for those who refuse to rub blue mud on their bellies because everyone else does. Turns out that there are a lot more of us than anyone previously believed.

Hedges is attempting to externally impose an orthodoxy on non-belief, the better to corner and attack it. Sorry - ain't buying it.

When people kill thousands for Allah - or Bush has a "crusade" to kill more for Jesus, it's evil. One group of fundamentalists is as bad as another.

When "true believers" of any stripe gain temporal authority, there is "hell to pay." Disagreement becomes a capital offense. It becomes justified to burn and kill over an insult to a long dead prophet and to kill righteously and preemptively in the name of another long dead prophet.

Hedges attack is primarily about selling books. Beyond that, it is about branding non-believers with some superimposed identity the better to attack them.

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» RE: By ridiculing the ridiculous Posted by: Ocean tides
» RE: By ridiculing the ridiculous Posted by: carcinoid112
Intolerance Runs Both Ways
Posted by: SEDGFLD on Mar 22, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether considered a person of faith or an athesist, being unable to respect the beliefs of those, who are not trying to force their beliefs upon others, is bigotry through intolerance. This includes childish and hateful namecalling.

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» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways Posted by: ragamuffin
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Intolerance Runs Both Ways Posted by: mtnprivy
the problem in general is
Posted by: dannrusso on Mar 22, 2008 6:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there are beliefs that we, as people, are unable to comprehend...there are truths that exist in a Plato-nian idea of the Form that are perfect, one might say divine, and we, as people merely see a shadow of that. As I have said before, its not the message that is the problem - just that the messengers need some work.

peace,
Dann
http://www.dannrusso.com

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Spirituality vs belief
Posted by: purereason on Mar 22, 2008 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are human beings because we owe our birth to the System that controls life. The ones who realized the relationship with the System called it the Truth (mainly Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, and Mohammad). Though it is the only intelligent System for us to manage life it is not sacred to those who speak of God. So the real athists are those who create their own faiths in violation of the System of God. This is because the best expression of the mind can be had only when it works in relationship with the System of God/Truth. C.G. Jung speaks thus on this realization: "The transcendent function does not proceed without aim and purpose, but leads to the revelation of the essential man. …. If we can successfully develop that function which I have called transcendent, the disharmony ceases and then we can enjoy the favorable side of the unconscious." (Two Essays on Analytical Psychology) Tao Sheng, the Chinese Buddhist scholar (360-434) said: "The Inner Order of Things is that of Nature. To get in mystical union with Nature is Illumination…. Returning to the original perfect state, we wonder why we ever started on the journey, for we started from the goal.” We are forcefully removed from our relationship with the System of Truth by the systems that have taken over the civilization. These are religious faiths, arts of culture, trade principles, etc. that have become the instruments of the civilization. Eckhart, the German theologian, (1260-1327) said: "The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a treasure which is hid in a field, saith Christ. This field is the soul- where in the treasure of the Kingdom of God lieth hidden. In the soul, therefore, are God and all the creatures blessed."
Mental exercises should not be mistaken for spirituality because spirituality can be had only in our relationship with the System that gave us life. We lose it when we get conquered by the religious faiths because they do not belong to the System of God. Though religions are supposed to promote spirituality they have become the greatest cause of destruction and manslaughter in this world. Religious faiths are alien to the constitution of the mind and the System.

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» blah, blah, blah Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: blah, blah, blah Posted by: NAM67VET
» RE: blah, blah, blah Posted by: carcinoid112
» Skim it Posted by: bornxeyed
» Trash faith Posted by: purereason
» RE: Trash faith Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Trash faith Posted by: leafsong1
» Dude you crack me up Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: blah, blah, blah Posted by: leafsong1
» blah, blah, blah faiths Posted by: purereason
» RE: blah, blah, blah Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: blah, blah, blah Posted by: leafsong1
» blah, blah, blah vs intelligence Posted by: purereason
There ARE No Atheists!
Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 22, 2008 6:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... but rather freightened ideological fundamentalists who haven't learned to be open to the complexity,as Hedges posits,of our human condition-who haven't yet recognized the well studied modern concepts of emotional intelligence and heart wisdom as well as mind wisdom-whose hyper-rationalism renders them actually quite irrational and limited.

So called atheists have low ambiguity and uncertainty tolerance. Their rigidity indeed makes them dangerous.

THANKS CHRIS HEDGES!YOUR VOICE MUST BE INCREASINGLY HEARD!

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» RE: There ARE No Atheists! Posted by: JOHN L.
» RE: There ARE No Atheists! Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: There ARE No Atheists! Posted by: Anon12
» RE: There ARE No Atheists! Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
» Nice! Posted by: morticia
» RE: Nice! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Nice! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Nice! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: There ARE No Atheists! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: There ARE No Atheists! Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: There ARE No Atheists! Posted by: bornxeyed
Examine Ponerology the Science of Evil
Posted by: GPFrank on Mar 22, 2008 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps Chris Hedges has come onto something too horrifying to encompass in one piece of work what a reader such as Usterly might desire as balm.

But the web site cited below contains a compendium of contemporary studies of the science of evil. It includes
an essay of how societies as whole become pathological, the relationship between psychopaths and societies and how psychopaths come to dominate groups and nations and how they empathasise with the dark side of normal individuals, the difference between antisocial, asocial personalities such a serial killers
and true psychopaths; the population of psychopaths is endemic throughout all regions of the world, the etiology of psychopathology and brain damage, especial the frontal region.
Then the purpose is to ask is how all this can be prevented, how can we acquire immunity to evil tendencies before they break out as a disease such as the Iraq war.
It ask such questions as to how pregnancies and birthing can be improve to prevent the occurrence of brain damage in some four percent of the population? How can up bringing of children be improved so as to
not enhance the effects of brain damage?

(Dis assembled to conform to posting rules:)

http:/

/www.cassiopaea.org/

cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski_2.htm

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Oh Mule Muffins
Posted by: Dogfather on Mar 22, 2008 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Marxism may be the opiate of the unstoned, but religion IS the opiate of the masses. Mental Masterbation as it were. Here we are in the 21st century discussing the intelectual problems of the past. Wake up. Be enlightened. Join the human race and think for yourselves. I would never deny anyones need for happiness in their individual lives. But quit trying to tell everyone else how to think. Organised religion is nothing more than instutionalised mental illness. If you call yourself a christian stand up and take responsibility for centuries of continuing oppression, genocide, sexual repression, and enforced ignorance in the name of your prince of peace. What a bunch of nonsense and you all should know better. In fact why dont you all stand up and renounce all violence in the name of religion. Until you do, you wont get me or many millions of others to give a rats ass about what you have to say. Because really who cares?

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» Religion = slavery Posted by: PhantomOfLiberty
» RE: eligion = slavery Posted by: Intellect
Otto
Posted by: otto on Mar 22, 2008 6:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I really agree with you. I wish I had more time to comment, or even to dialogue with you. One of my biggest frustrations, as one who considers himself still religious, is how so many great people doing great things, are turned off by religion, and how so many on "my religious side" seem so shallow in their beliefs and practices. I was ordained a priest, unlike you, practiced for 30 years in Churches and teaching, but eventually left because I felt I was a fraud in regards to celibacy and also that the Church was too much of a fraud in regard to important social issues. But I'm still hanging in there, trying to make a difference in both areas.

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» Turned off by religion Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Otto Posted by: Cathyc
He's striking back!
Posted by: reval on Mar 22, 2008 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think I know exactly what's behind Hedges lastest rant (oops, I mean book): He wanted to be welcomed into the Four Horsemen of the Apocalyse Gang but was rejected outright for his inability to understand the basic arguments of the debate.

Now he's striking back, in, what I might add, is the most bizzaro stream of utter tripe I've yet to hear coming from his twisted, Harvard "divinity" mind.

I was at Royce Hall when Hedges debated Harris. Hedges proved that he was nothing but a giant bag of gas. He took up nearly the entire debate with an endless stream of half-baked, meandering and twisted logic, much of it restated here. Cliff Sherer had to ask him to wind it up so Harris could say a few words.

I think Hedges would be well-advised to head back TitoLandia and reinvestigate the non-religious war he thinks was never waged. And while he's there I hope he lays off the slivovitz. He obviously is unable to handle the rotgut.
~Rev El
Pastor, WVCSR

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» RE: He's striking back! Posted by: Ranger
» RE: He's striking back! Posted by: exasperated
» RE: He's striking back! Posted by: animalleaderisgreat
» RE: He's striking back! Posted by: Dissenter77
What a load of of . . . .
Posted by: rhinojos on Mar 22, 2008 6:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
crap!

"They propose a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason"

Sounds like a logical route to me, I don't see anything wrong with this statement.

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» RE: What a load of. . . . Posted by: reval
» Crap Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Crap Posted by: reval
Spirituality=Openness
Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 22, 2008 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion=intolerance.Including the religion of Atheism

Religion seeks "the answer"

Spirituality seeks "the question"

The most important imperative therefore is to keep endless dialogue going.

This is not moral relativism- It is the human condtion.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» RE: Spirituality=Openness Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Spirituality=Openness Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Spirituality=Openness Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Atheism? Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Atheism? Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
» RE: Atheism? Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Mark Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Mark Posted by: mark
» RE: Bornxeyed's Mr. Hyde Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Bornxeyed's Mr. Hyde Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: The Bornxeyed farewell Posted by: Knowmad
» This is what I believe Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Never... Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: "Religion of Atheism" equals..... Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: Spirituality=Openness Posted by: Bibsi
So, who's reaping what they sow, and who's exempt?
Posted by: Knowmad on Mar 22, 2008 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For a start, perhaps all the Hedges and Hitchens of he world - and everyone else who claims to have the answers to life, the universe and everything - might want to get over themselves (and their evident insecurity), lighten up, listen instead of incessently announcing the(ir) truth and stop trying to cram others' realities into their unique, subjective mold.

And while you're at it, why not simply try to be nicer to others, and more in tune with the potential gifts inherent in difference.

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» Vive La Difference! Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Vive La Difference! Posted by: Knowmad
good discussion but
Posted by: karyse on Mar 22, 2008 7:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
what the author is arguing is worth a look-see even though there are some problems with his logic. I had the same response to The End of Faith as he did. I was baffled by the anti-semitism (anti-Arab, by the way, who are also semites) and very much disturbed. Anyone, including my compatriot Harris, who argues "kill them all" has gone down the wrong path.

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» RE: good discussion but Posted by: ragamuffin
» RE: good discussion but Posted by: Cathyc
8 non-theist
Posted by: 8 nontheist on Mar 22, 2008 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It may not matter to some but some commonly used Christian terms are pejorative terms. The term original sin is a pejorative. The human trait of being inclined toward evil thoughts & acts may considered to be wired into the human psyche. The idea of original sin is far from being an original concept & the idea that a trait which many of from birth being a sin is a false. There is a most remote possibility that some rare individuals have overcome an urge to ever do or think evil. To avoid acting upon an impulse can't be considered to be a so called sin. It might be considered to be an affirmative action to develop a virtue. Calling an act considered to be evil by a number of Christians & other theists a sin is to use a pejorative term without any basis in fact. Erotic acts among consenting adults may not be an evil act or a so called sin. For some erotic acts among consenting adults are simply fun & rewarding joyful expressions. This blog could be edited to substitute non pejorative words & concepts for the pejorative terms the author has used. Would the blog be concise & interesting; I don't know?

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» born ok the first time Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: born ok the first time Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: 8 non-theist Posted by: carcinoid112
» Doctrine of "Original Sin" Posted by: Cathyc
What are you talking about?
Posted by: oregonox on Mar 22, 2008 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unless you can explain your statements more fully, you just come across as paranoid schizophrenic. The persecution claims are a dead give away.

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» RE: What are you talking about? Posted by: 8 nontheist
Chris: Why no comment on Dennett?
Posted by: Bizby on Mar 22, 2008 7:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like Hedges; I've read his books.

But I've also read the "new atheists" he cites, and like all of those who attack the "new atheists," Hedges only confronts the weakest arguments of the weakest books: He attacks Harris and Hitchens, but NEVER Dennett (and rarely Dawkins).

Dennett simply says lets apply empiricism to religious belief and see where that takes us. So far, where it takes us is that religious people believe in magic entities (angels, gods, whatever) that lie beyond human empirical knowledge.

Harris' point is, how can you condemn those who believe in a magic entity that, for example, hates gay people, when you yourself believe in the same magic entity, but simply believe that the magic entity doesn't hate gay people. There is no better basis for your belief in the intent of the magic being then in theirs.

That is what Hedges doesn't confront.

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» An argument from first principles Posted by: Canuckistan
morally neutral universe
Posted by: Gregory Lynn Kruse on Mar 22, 2008 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I fundamentally agree with the writer of the article. It has taken me 60 years of wading through the material generated by religions, science, and politics to arrive at the conclusion that the universe is morally neutral. It is difficult to believe that we, products of such a universe can be so morally biased, but the original sin (or mistake)wasn't
that we didn't obey "God's" limiting edicts, but that we wanted to judge a morally neutral universe. This is a task that is not only impossible but futile as well. The universe has made a google of decisions about us without the slightest input from us, and though we may continue to increase our influence on our own development, we can't change the decisions of the past which have made us what we are. Whether we turn left or right, whether we believe in God or not, have no consequence outside the bubble we live in. The worst consequence we can imagine of our actions is death, yet more scary to me than death is the thought that life is indestructable and inescapable. Life strives to take on form of any kind and anywhere, and that suggests that it exists even without form. We should be teaching our children to seek the intersection of a line linking science and religion, crossed by a line linking form and oblivion. I call it "x" or "+". That is where I hope to find the truth, because it seems more noble to seek it than to avoid it.

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» RE: morally neutral universe Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
Get a grip!
Posted by: jmooney on Mar 22, 2008 7:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing is, religious people, particularly conservatives, have pretty much had carte blanche in this country to spout every convoluted piece of non-sense imaginable, and there has been no real counterpoint coming from the standpoint of reason. Now, we have a gaggle of "New Atheist" writers who are doing that, and their books are selling. Wow! And now the religious and their defenders are all up in arms. When they have an open field, all was well. Now, a little opposition, and they are crying.

I actually read a lot of this writer's book at Barnes and Noble the other day (no, I didn't buy it), and it made some good points, and I agree that the so-called "New Atheists" can be a bit nuclear in their rhetoric, but it is a view point that needs to be heard, and, clearly, to sell books, you have got to make it spicey. Just bland pokes at religion while saying why can't we all sing Kumbayha (spelling may be wrong) wouldn't cause people to purchase books. They have to put and edge on it, and they do.

I don't much care if someone wants to believe in Spaghetti Monster or whatever, and I know many Spaghetti Monster believers do good things, but some of their brethren take it too far and say that if you don't eat x number of meatballs a day you'll go into the oven. And they are willing to wage wars based on that. I am opposed to that.

I think it is incumbent on moderate religious folks (or liberals, I know they are there) to actually take on the fundamentalists of their religious persuasion. I don't see where it is wrong to question a crazy belief.

One of the "New Atheists", Harris, I think, says that moderate and liberal religious people make it easier for the nuts to do their thing. I see his point, but I also think it need not be that way. Religious people who value science, evolution, reason and see their faiths as more mythological in nature, I think they can have sway on the conservatives. They need to speak up.

I'm grateful for the "New Atheists."

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» RE: Get a grip! Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Get a grip! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Get a grip! Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Get a grip! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Get a grip! Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: Get a grip! Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Cake? Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Cake? Posted by: Cathyc
crap
Posted by: leafsong1 on Mar 22, 2008 7:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know what his agenda is, but if it were based on a rational argument, he would have presented one. He seems to be working backwards from some vague imagined disaster that doesn't even amount to a strawman.

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if they were arresting Christians, would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Posted by: babka on Mar 22, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THE GREY MONK


"I die, I die!" the Mother said,
"My children die for lack of bread.
What more has the merciless Tyrant said?"
The Monk sat down on the stony bed.

The blood red ran from the Grey Monk's side,
His hands and feet were wounded wide,
His body bent, his arms and knees
Like to the roots of ancient trees.

His eye was dry; no tear could flow:
A hollow groan first spoke his woe.
He trembled and shudder'd upon the bed;
At length with a feeble cry he said:

"When God commanded this hand to write
In the studious hours of deep midnight,
He told me the writing I wrote should prove
The bane of all that on Earth I lov'd.

My Brother starv'd between two walls,
His Children's cry my soul appalls;
I mock'd at the rack and griding chain,
My bent body mocks their torturing pain.

Thy father drew his sword in the North,
With his thousands strong he marched forth;
Thy Brother has arm'd himself in steel
To avenge the wrongs thy Children feel.

But vain the Sword and vain the Bow,
They never can work War's overthrow.
The Hermit's prayer and the Widow's tear
Alone can free the World from fear.

For a Tear is an intellectual thing,
And a Sigh is the sword of an Angel King,
And the bitter groan of the Martyr's woe
Is an arrow from the Almighty's bow.

The hand of Vengeance found the bed
To which the Purple Tyrant fled;
The iron hand crush'd the Tyrant's head
And became a Tyrant in his stead."

- William Blake

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Did you fire the proofreader?
Posted by: mdwoade on Mar 22, 2008 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I liked this article a lot. I think it is insightful and penetrating. The author seems to have real life experience to refute the mean-spirtited intellectual rantings of the right and the left.

I have one question. Why is it that the same paragraph beginning with this: "These atheists and Christian radicals have built squalid little belief systems...", which appears TWICE in this piece. If you do not believe me, try searching for the word "squalid". The entire paragraph appears to have been copied and pasted back into the article.

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» Copied and Pasted Posted by: Cathyc
AuntSally
Posted by: AuntSally on Mar 22, 2008 8:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You write "Religion, real religion, was about fighting for justice, standing up for the voiceless and the weak, reaching out in acts of kindness and compassion to the stranger and the outcast, living a life of simplicity, finding empathy and defying the powerful."

I disagree. What you describe is real morality. Real religion puts forth fantastical, mythological beliefs as reasonable, such as virgin births, absolution of sin through crucifiction and resurrection, and the parting of large bodies of water.

I'm afraid you still completely miss the point of the likes of Harris and Dawkins: why do we treat such fantastical, supernatural beliefs as reasonable?

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» RE: AuntSally Posted by: bornxeyed
Selective bashing
Posted by: ahilgart on Mar 22, 2008 8:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fault with Harris and Hitchens is their selective emphasis on Islam-bashing, when Islamic law is largely drawn from Judaic law, as in the death penalty for heresy. The belief that Yahweh gave Jews the right to take Palestine from the Palestinians, now as in Biblcal times, has surely been as pernicious as other religious doctrines. Nearly all religions are based on superstition and have at times led to outrageous behavior, but one suspects the motives of those who use skepticism only to encourage killing Muslims.

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» RE: Selective bashing Posted by: mark
» Nail hit on head Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Nail hit on head Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Nail hit on head Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Nail hit on head Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: Nail hit on head Posted by: mark
» RE: Nail hit on head Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Selective bashing Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Selective bashing Posted by: mark
» RE: Selective bashing Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Selective bashing Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Selective bashing Posted by: mark
soowee
Posted by: soowee on Mar 22, 2008 8:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chris Hedges states as follows:

"The New Atheists embrace a belief system as intolerant, chauvinistic and bigoted as that of religious fundamentalists. *** The utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being, the idea that we are moving towards collective salvation, is one of the most dangerous legacies of the Christian faith and the Enlightenment."

I don't know what Hedges has been smoking, but what he describes is not what I as an atheist believe. I am sick and tired of believers trying foolishly to state what atheists think. We are no more capable of being pigeon-holed and grouped than are Christians, or Jews or New Yorkers.

I don't give a rat about "a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason ... [a]utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being...."

Where does that crap come from? I daresay it is no more possible than does Hedges. What in the world gives him the idea that atheists embrace such nonsense?

More Hedges:
"Those who believe in the possibility of this perfection often call for the silencing or eradication of human beings who are impediments to human progress. They turn their particular good into a universal good. They are blind to their own corruption and capacity for evil. They soon commit evil, not for evil's sake but to make a better world."

Hedges clearly intends to persuade his readers that we atheists, "blind to our own corruption," are plotting some secret plan to "silence and eradicate" those who disagree with us. Hedges is a willful, deliberate fear-monger who, in my opinion, is lying outright to scare people into hating atheists.

I have no use for trifle like Hedges. He can go pimp his book elsewhere.

H. W. Ellerson
PO Box 90
Hadensville, VA 23067
(804) 457-4243

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» RE: soowee Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: soowee Posted by: soowee
» RE: carcinoid112 1:01 PM Posted by: soowee
» RE: carcinoid112 1:01 PM Posted by: carcinoid112
» RE: carcinoid112 1:01 PM Posted by: soowee
Brian the leveller.
Posted by: leveller on Mar 22, 2008 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't like the way you generalise about atheists. I'm an atheist and I don't recognise myself at all in your criticism. I believe that religious faith should be a private matter. My attitude is: Don't try to ram religion down my throat and I wont try to ram atheism down yours. I would however, ram socialism down the throats of greedy capitalists if I had the chance, after ordinary people are convinced that socialism is a good idea.

Finally, quite frankly in your article you sound like a disciple of Friederich von Hayek sometimes. ASs you know, his looney ideas led to Neo-liberalism, Thatcherism, Reganomics, conquest disguised as liberal interventionism, and the sub-prime mortgage disaster.

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» RE: Brian the leveller. Posted by: carcinoid112
Hedges main points
Posted by: johnwilkins1672 on Mar 22, 2008 8:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that Hedges main points are pretty useful - utopianism bad. Religious concepts: good. Religious institutions, hypocritical (although there are few non-hypocritical organizations, in my view: just those of varying kinds of usefulness). And finally, the dangers of an alliance of atheists and Christian fundamentalists who might justify an all out war on Islamic fundamentalism. The idea that violence begets violence (a fairly religious view, because sometimes violence does end violence), is a matter of faith, one that is valuable as a religious concept, one that Hedges has studied.

I do wish that people would take an anthropology of religion class. Looking at religion as a set of beliefs is not the most accurate way to look at this aspect of human behavior.

Religion is a short cut for human behavior. For example, a religion, through symbols and hypnotic commands, example to cooperate. To cooperate in gathering food, and in destroying the tribe next to us. Cooperation is good... or is it? Individual creativity is good, unless that creativity says my neighbor should be the canvas for my artistic knifework.

Religion is wherever bands of people greater than 125 gather. We just aren't looking hard enough as it uses a language familiar to us, or we are so immersed in it, we can't see the religious aspects of our behavior.

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Atheism is lack of belief
Posted by: Sy Ence on Mar 22, 2008 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apparently Mr. Hedges doesn't fully understand this. As far as what 'Atheism' is as a form of 'belief system', well I think it's best said by Prof. Dawkins himself in that "organizing atheists is like herding cats." The only thing we all agree on is that THERE IS NO GOD. Period. Next question.

As far as morality is concerned...
I could sit here all day expounding on the shaky ground on which religion has built its moral foundations, but I will digress. Not worth the time or effort.

What I would like to say is this- I was raised a 'Christian' and found it much easier to justify my moral deficiencies by 'asking for forgiveness from God.' As a non-believer, I find that I think about my actions and their consequences in a different manner.

I don't know if Mr. Hedges has children, but as the father of a 3-year old I find it much easier to tell him the truth about the world around him, and the fact that neither science nor reason has all the answers, rather than the position of 'goddidit.' Your own intellect will lead you to (some)answers to life's difficult questions, not blind adherence to religious dogma. Besides, we have to teach children the belief in a supernatural being because the default position at birth really is 'atheism.' Just as no child is born believing in Santa or the Tooth Fairy...

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» RE: Atheism is lack of belief Posted by: Dissenter77
» RE: Atheism is lack of belief Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: Atheism is lack of belief Posted by: happyhermit
Religion and Cultlike Beliefs are Independent Variables
Posted by: PaulK on Mar 22, 2008 8:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Worshippers of Bolshevism, the rule of the people, were betrayed by a tyrant and eventually went on pogroms. Nationalists and Fascists have been betrayed too. All over Africa "democracy" is betrayed by strongmen.

In Indiana in the 1920s the Ku Klux Klan infiltrated lots of churches across the board with a message of worshipping the Christ, secret rituals in hoods (what does Ku Klux stand for anyways?) and killing the neighbors.

I wouldn't be surprised to see militant nontheism taken over with a wack set of beliefs about killing the neighbors. The Bolsheviks were nontheists too, weren't they?

For every political and religious belief, be it environmentalism (the Unabomber), Christian Fundamentalism (Jim Jones and Jonestown, Guyana) or German national pride after a grinding military defeat, human belief systems can be corrupted to involve either tyrants or killing the neighbors.

Religion is simply the study of things that are hard to prove but which get reported as real. For example, a belief that UFOs abduct people is a religious belief. Numbers of people have stories about the problem, but there's no UFO sitting on my lawn today that I can show you. Similarly, if you believe in healing with prayer, or in God, numbers of other people have similar stories, and encourage you to collect these accounts, but if you tell me God is sitting on my lawn today and I just can't see Him, well, that's kind of fuzzy.

Politics is simply the fuzzy study of alternative systems of successfully controlling society, sometimes for the benefit of all, sometimes not. Economics is also occasionally fuzzy.

None of these nebulous scientific endeavors have anything to do with keeping tyrants in power or with killing your neighbors. However, because they're so nebulous, it's surprisingly easy to work in the kill the neighbors part. "As He died to make men holy, let's kill the neighbors to make men free! Our God is marching on!"

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I disagree.
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney on Mar 22, 2008 8:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, sir, the problems are with those who wish to ignore science, carbon testing, and research that actually helps man for a belief system that tries to use pseudo-scientific reasons why man has been on this earth for only 6,000 years and wants this taught in schools.

Religion has been at the root of most of our wars in this world, and when it comes to torture, religion has had their hands bloodied over and over and is well trained in this regard despite the message of peace and love of the religions. Catholics, Inquisition, Muslims, beheading, stoning and other forms of torture. The latest "believer" Mr. Hagee is trying to hasten the end of the world by stirring up problems in the Middle East. We've watched the Robertson's and Falwell's blame others for nateral disasters to promote their form of religion. It always has to be someone's fault for these things happening. These "religious leaders" needing scapegoats, such as gays & lesbians, Liberals, or some other "whipping-boy" to stir up the bigots in their flock and to make them more money to perpetuate this madness.

Yet, you are threatened and cry foul when a few atheists stand up for themselves and will not take your constant making of them "the bogeyman." You sir, and religion in general, have always been the problem not atheists.

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» thanks Keith Posted by: happyhermit
My Dad--
Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 22, 2008 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
was a farmer in Nebraska. He passed away 2 years ago at the age of 89. Brought-up in the stern German Protestantism of the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, after he got married he never went to church again (except for the occasional funeral or wedding). And he was one of the kindest, most gentle, most noble men I have ever known. Dad only had a grade school education, yet he raised 5 children who all went to college and who all grew up to be successful, professional and moral members of society who get along quite well, thank you, without any religious belief. It wasn't easy, being out here in one of the reddest of the red states--where some people (literally) think Bush II is Jesus Christ. But let me tell you some of the biggest stinkers in these "idyllic" little rural towns are in church every Sunday. They use their religion to give a moral stamp of approval to their ruthless and malicious lives.

When Dad passed on, we had a nice (non-religious) memorial service at the funeral home. Sure enough, one of the "church-going" relatives wanted to come out with one of those prayers where they talk about how dying frees us from sin, etc. etc. He was politely told "no thanks" by us kids, and he was sullen and fuming for the rest of the service.

I am so grateful to have had a Dad who, due to the LACK of dogmatic religious belief, gave me an upbringing free from fear and guilt and a positive, hopeful life outlook.

Thank you, DAD!

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» RE: My Dad-- Posted by: Ocean tides
» RE: My Dad-- Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: My Dad-- Posted by: Jimsabis
» RE: My Dad-- Posted by: morticia
UNIMPRESSIVE
Posted by: lasirene on Mar 22, 2008 8:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This piece was not edited properly, as there were several paragraphs that were repeated on different pages in different order.

The arguments were not precise or interesting, and this is actually an interesting topic.

I heard Hedges on Thom Hartmann's show the other day and was similarly unimpressed by his lack of incisesiveness (new word?). He seems to be conflicted himself and this comes across in his arguments. It just ends up being boring.

Alternet needs to edit better and Hedges needs to get better at making his point. Alternet readers deserve better than this.

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» RE: UNIMPRESSIVE Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: UNIMPRESSIVE Posted by: Cathyc
Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality!
Posted by: Dissenter77 on Mar 22, 2008 8:50 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though Hitchens may be harsh at times, and I do not agree with his stance with the war (I am an Atheist), Hedges is not in Hitchens' league to debate him. Hitchens is a master at words and phrases. Hedges is a pussy! He is a fence sitter who doesn't want to piss off his 'invisible' entity in another dimension.

People, look around and see that a lot of religious people talk the talk! Where are they when action is needed? Sure, they help, but so do Atheists! The difference is we Atheists don't show you our Atheism (unlike religionists who MUST tell you what they worship) and we are not looking to be patted on the back or expect to be chauffeured to see 72 virgins or to be greeted at "Heaven's Gates."

As for the so called "spiritualists" who believe in "spirituality," Please tell us just what the hell that means? You are full of shit with your meaningless word! What's next in your lineup? Kabbalah?

Get over yourselves my religious/spiritual friends. The Universe doesn't give a shit about you!

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» RE: Bull Shit on Hedges and Spirituality! Posted by: GradientConsequence
Religions are...
Posted by: JOHN L. on Mar 22, 2008 9:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion(s) are overwhelmingly systems of power and control, no better than the worse dictatorships, even more controling and dictatorial, seldom if ever of any true benefit to humankind, life or the enviroment of earth itself.
More often than not, collectively religion, beyond the direct applied causes of hyped-up excuses for wars and deprivation of those of (slightly different-or competing ones), also make themselves tools of whatever the ruling regime at the time.
"FreeThinkers" is an apt description of the non-believer/athiest, who is free, unshackled to explore all.
Of course there are unsavory types among "US", just as there are among all so-called designated groups, but at least athiests have the opportunity TO think, a luxury virtually forbidden among the "believers."
~old74

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He lost me at Original Sin
Posted by: BlueTigress on Mar 22, 2008 9:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It was obvious that the author is a religious man who cannot accept that some people are just not religious at all, but still can be moral.

I still think Original Sin is a bullshit concept. To me the idea that a Creator put his creations in a place where they could have whatever they wanted BUT NOT THAT and expect them to leave it be shows a poor understanding of his creations.

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» RE: He lost me at Original Sin Posted by: Ocean tides
» Do the same thing? Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: He lost me at Original Sin Posted by: johnwilkins1672
» RE: He lost me at Original Sin Posted by: Ocean tides
Tripe
Posted by: BobbyG on Mar 22, 2008 9:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One hardly knows where to begin rebutting this hyperbolic, sophomoric, straw man/red herring drivel.

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Conformism, Sanity, Insanity
Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 22, 2008 9:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is an institution that appeals to those who are extreme in their conformity. Those who believe in "God" do so only because many others around them, most likely their family, believed in "God" before them.
Can Christians and Muslims and Jews, etc, really argue that their god is any more real than Zeus or Quetzalcoatl? No. Mythology is mythology.
Is it any wonder that certain religions predominate in specific parts of the world? and in specific times in history?
If any person of any religion was born instead in the middle of another period in time and in another part of the world, then chances are they would believe in another god or gods.
Our spirituality is only a Rorschach test of our experiences, our culture, our family, and is NOT based on any divine truth.
There is currently NO WAY that ANY of us can truly know what is really going on in regards to the consciousness of the universe or the after-life, if the universal consciousness or the afterlife exist at all in the first place.
Thing is, I would trust the mentally disturbed man with the tin-foil hat to tell me what is really up LONG before I would trust any "sane" person who derived their beliefs only from what others have to say on the topic (who in turn derived their own beliefs from the prior rantings of other deluded conformists.)
Insanity: Where you believe the lies you tell yourself.
Sanity: Where you believe the lies told you by everyone else.

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» RE: Conformism, Sanity, Insanity Posted by: carcinoid112
how did something for Fox get here????
Posted by: siamdave on Mar 22, 2008 9:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a very sad example of writing - how this man ever won a Pulitzer is beyond me - plunging standards there as everywhere else in our dumbed down society. For example - "..Those are many people of great moral probity and courage.." ??? - he mentions 3 people, which doesn't normally qualify as 'many'. Just an example, there are many others of very poor writing and logic throughout.

Bad logic - "These New Atheists attack a form of religious belief .." - no, the only 'belief' that is being attacked is the fundamental belief in the mythological god. There are many 'systems of belief' - all are equally invalid, because they are all based on this false god. What the priest class gets up to afterwards with their power is secondary - usually bad stuff, but the basic problem in the belief in this false god in the first place/

But rather than parse this article in its entirety, which would be a massive waste of time and take a short book, I just wanted to say a couple of things here. First, I do not accept the somewhat derogatory term of 'atheist', as in its overall framing that other people are normal with their belief in a mythological being, but those of us who decline this particular aspect of modern indoctrination are somehow beyond the pale. Actually, for intelligent people, it's the other way around. I consider myself to be normal, in terms of being an adult with a fairly solid grip on reality, having a normal array of imperfections, but not believing in santa claus or the easter bunny or zeus or 'god' or WMD, and when others admit to a belief in this christian god, they become theists, to me, and suspect, sort of like admitting to being a flat-earther or astrologist or nazi or something. They're going to have to explain to me how much I can trust them, if they are at the command of some priest class which might at any time order them to do things that normal people who make decisions based on rational input would consider irrational (you can't shop on Sundays because our god must be worshipped on that day!'), or that conflict otherwise with the wellbeing of my community (You shall not use contraception!!).


And "... the atheists ... engage in the same chauvinism and call for the same violent utopianism of the radical Christian Right. They sell ..They believe... They argue.." - that sort of thing is just plain schoolyard insults. So all 'atheists' are the same, think the same, believe the same, argue the same, just a bunch of cockroaches, no matter where you run into one, you can pull out your little list and say "Ah, an atheist, you believe ..., you think ,,,. you argue ...' Again, it's actually the theists this sort of comment applies to, demonstrably rather than insultingly - they all go through some sort of baptism ritual, at which time, after years of serious indoctrination, they swear eternal loyalty to a god noone has ever seen, affirming they believe all sorts of nonsensical things, swearing to do as the high priests of that god tell them, performing regular public rituals to demonstrate their fealty, obeying the commandments of the particular sect, and etc and etc. A normal person, now, well, you have no idea what they think, or believe, or feel, or argue, about mythological creatues or gods or anything else, until you talk to them.

And I could rant on all night about this, but have better things to do.

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Pray for Hitchens..and his wet brain..!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 22, 2008 10:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitchens has wet brain it's well known, so we should all feel for him and Pray for Him that's the best way to piss him off..!

LOL..!

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» Nope.... Posted by: morticia
Not saying anything I don't already know in my heart...
Posted by: Gungneir on Mar 22, 2008 10:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Never trust in the motives of man./They failed to evolve in Mother Nature's plan./And though they seem safe, in this early clouded state,/The nature of their heresy has proven quite innate." --Jon Schaffer, "The Clouding"

The above quote sums up, in toto, everything that I have to say to religionist and secularist extremists. For all their differences, they both seem to operate off the same two delusions:

1)that humankind, by virtue of God or its technological gadgets, are somehow seperate or superior to the rest of the natural world that gave it birth.

2)that only by following their way of thinking while ignoring the other side (never mind that both sides are the living avatars of two fundamental human needs that must be addressed) can humankind advance to a new golden age.

Meanwhile, back here on Planet Earth, everybody else who just wants to live their lives, raise their families, have enough to eat, and have some place to sleep every night gets swept up by the ongoing conflicts of these supposed "betters". The story is the same circular narrative that has been playing for the last six thousand years of civilization. People are killed, oppressed, imprisoned, run out of their homes, denied their natural-born liberty, and told that they are worthless and therefore don't matter. To think that this story is any different now because we are in a more enlightened age is self-delusion.

Based on the context of recent events, I believe we are approaching the end of a historical cycle and that a new cycle of history is about to begin. If true, it will require new or, at least, ridiculed/unacknowledged approachs to the way we live our lives. We may already be seeing that in South America with its shrugging off of the WTO yoke, but this is just hopeful speculation.

To face a new cycle requires courage to step outside the box that most of us have lived our lives. That, more than anything, is why I hate both sides so badly. Their fear of uncertainty does not let them see past their own blinders.

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Here's what I get from Hedges.
Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 22, 2008 10:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you have seen one absolutism, you have seen them all. Absolutism can be found in science as well as in religion, because absolutism is a very human characteristic. For one absolutism to condemn another is the old pot and kettle scene.

One can find within science a critique of scientific absolutism. One can find within religion a critique of religious absolutism. Ergo, what justifies leaping over those fences? The inability to listen to criticism from within.

'Twas ever the same.

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Let's face it:
Posted by: bettyn on Mar 22, 2008 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God is a creation of man to justify things that he could not understand. One need only look at the sky on a cloudless night and wonder:"Why is all of this here?" "Why am I here?" I have accepted that there are NO answers to these questions. Our brains just haven't evolved to the point where we can master these concepts and understand them.

I have never found any feasible answers to any of these questions in ANY religion. At this late date in my life, I doubt that I ever will. I, and most people I know, have been forcefed religion from birth. Once on my own, I found much better things to do on Sundays than have some preacher or some church try to ram their beliefs into my head!

What is necessary for a happy and peaceful existence is just to accept others as they are. If they want to believe this gobbledegook, fine. Just don't drag me into it because I'm not buying what you're selling.

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» RE: Let's face it: Posted by: libgal
» RE: Let's face it: Posted by: Intellect
You know what would've been great in this article?
Posted by: Anon12 on Mar 22, 2008 11:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A fucking point.

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George Collins
Posted by: fidemclamscit on Mar 22, 2008 11:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've heard much of Chris Hedges' fine reputation as a war correspondent for the New York Times and expected his essay on the dangers posed by the likes of the "New Atheists" to be well done.

I'm not a particular fan of Hitchens or Harris, Hitchens being a bit of a casuist and Harris a little cavalier in his argumentative leaps. My disappointment derives from Hedges' broad generalizations and targeting of caricatures.

Atheism is not necessarily an ideology, a shadow form of faith. To tar atheists, many of whom belong to various humanist organizations, with the brush of genocidal elitsts who would justify first strike nuclear attacks against Muslim hordes is unfounded, undocumented, undocument-able and an insult to atheists, Muslims and Mr. Hedges' readers.

Unfortunately, Hedges mirrors the rhetorical excesses he accuses his "New Atheists" of practicing.

George Collins
Goffstown, New Hampshire

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» RE: George Collins Posted by: Anon12
I think it quite simple
Posted by: stuarts on Mar 22, 2008 11:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He had nice success with his first book attacking fundamentalism. Fine reviews and a few chunky checks. Publisher pats him on the back and says something akin to 'nice job son. Have another go, please.'

And here we are, dig up old outline, swap some nouns with the find/replace function, turn crank, deliver draft, hope previous success carries the day on what turns out to be akin to a poor hollywood sequel.

Could anyone really get past the introduction calling atheism a belief system without smelling the rot? I would ask the author to please check premises before wasting trees/time.

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maven
Posted by: maven on Mar 22, 2008 11:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A quick aside--I noticed that the first comment was written at 12ish AM, and they have come fast and furious since then......
I mention because I think that this is one of the more thought provoking articles I've read and wish I had time to read most everyone's comments. As I don't I may be repeating other's thoughts. Sorry.
In my heart of hearts, I have a little bit of utopian desires. Clearly I am older and wise enough to realize that we aren't getting there any time soon, but my only argument with Chris is his fundamentalist pessimism. I do think that the best good is manifest in thought and/or deed by those who approach all with clarity and just a soupcon of cynicism but with a foundation of positivity. To believe, and I use that word carefully, that there is no proof of or hope for moral improvement in humankind,(as Mr Hedges does per my reading) is not providing anything for humanity, and leaves any good deeds performed without inspiration to pay it forward. Ask the most unselfish among us, and I think you will find a conviction that what they are doing is spreading seeds. I think they are right.

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Hedges seems to think that spirituality
Posted by: surfreality on Mar 22, 2008 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and religion are interchangeable.
I forget who said this but it strikes a note with me: "Religion is for those who are afraid of hell; spirituality is for those who've already been there."

I agree with the posters above who takes issue with this:"There is nothing in human nature or human history to support the idea that we are morally advancing as a species or that we will overcome the flaws of human nature. We progress technologically and scientifically, but not morally."

Good examples were cited above to refute this sad argument. In addition I would recommend reading Ken Wilbur's "A Brief History Of Everything". It's a great read and his essays on Spiral Dynamics address just this very point.

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And he never questions his own judgemental beliefs?
Posted by: kelethian on Mar 22, 2008 12:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Humanity is evil blah blah blah."

I want to get Chris in front of a panel of noted humanitarians, perhaps. Maybe Lech Walesa can inform him that the 20th century left his worldview in the 19th. Or perhaps the Dalai Lama could enlighten him, heh.

I have to wonder what trauma sent him on this anti-humanist agenda. He even repeats his Gothic highschooler blather about how we go nowhere and were evil yadda yadda yadda.

So, what kind of society does he propose, where we acknowledge this so-called Calvinist fact? One, i am sure, of less freedoms, tighter controls and rule by AI machine ...if we ever develop it because we are "headed nowhere". Calvin's dream. All that man really wanted was to run a theocracy.

I want to take this man here to Florida and show him a space launch, and tell him how the sun will give us our power from panels and chemicals from biomass, how an Eee-sized PC will one day be all we need as far as personal tech, and how we will start a program to mine asteroids and perhaps near the end of this time period build the first nanoassembler... All only 10-15 years from now. We will have openings for construction jobs in -outer space-.

And if you say theres no oil solution, youre wrong. Pure and simple. Call up Johannesburg and ask them how they dealt with the oil embargo for 40 years. Better yet, you might want to call a place called Sasolburg... and realize that if you threw biomass charcoal in the process it would work. It's all hydro-carbon material after all. At least itd get us to where we develop fusion.

Military hardware is but one small aspect of science and engineering. A plant in the US that once built bioweapons now researches how to kill the germs. Thats not advancement socially and materially?

Its not advancement that what once took violent rebellions is now handled by vote? That a nation got one over on its millenia-old oppressors by way of protests and practical jokes until Gorby had had enough of Poland?

I hate to say this, but Chris here needs to go back to his crowd of goth kids.

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» The "Road to Nowhere" Posted by: Cathyc
Dockside
Posted by: rtmyth on Mar 22, 2008 12:25 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bertrand Russell, in his collected writings,"Bertrand Russell on God and Religion", edited by Al Seckel, covered the subject very well.

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"Dangerous" atheists...
Posted by: morticia on Mar 22, 2008 12:42 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a lot like saying "dangerous" gay people. Like gay people, "atheists" (and I use the word advisedly, because it's so linguistically damaged as to be just about useless) represent a teensy minority of the population, a smaller percentage, in fact, than that of gay people. The idea that "atheists" are "dangerous" to the vast, seethingly overwhelming, 9-to-1 majority is like saying a 600-lb. Sumo wrestler faces a serious threat from a lemur. Ridiculous.

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» Gee whiz, 2-rater... Posted by: morticia
Former bureau chief at The NY Times?!
Posted by: Vince2 on Mar 22, 2008 12:55 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who is this guy? He writes like a 12-year-old.

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Straw man
Posted by: dkm on Mar 22, 2008 12:55 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems to me that Mr. Hedges is using a straw man argument to further a religious agenda. Atheists do not regard Islam as any different from any other religion. For Mr. Hedges to lump atheists in with the right wing fundy wackos (Tom Delay's term) is just not tenable. Atheism merely says that reality is all there is and that if we want to live together on a small world, we need to learn how. Evidence is that cooperation is much more effective than war, so atheism is inherently a cooperative endeavor.

I can understand that a person who graduated from a seminary would feel offended by someone saying that religion is bunk, but the proper response is to show that religion is not bunk. Instead Mr. Hedges attacks atheism for something that it is not. This style of argumentation is dishonest in that it doesn't really contradict the opposing viewpoint. What it does instead is validate the opposing viewpoint by tacitly accepting it, but then going off on some unconnected tangent is an attempt to cloud the issue.

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» RE: Straw man Posted by: carcinoid112
Atheists or Whatever
Posted by: Lee Marshall on Mar 22, 2008 12:57 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Somebody writes a book calling one or a few people names and then the masses who are asses generalizes and there insues a big fight.
It is human nature alright, but what a waste.
The big fight about Atheism simply relies on one side preferring to believe in a superpower with imaginary evidence, and Science with verifiable evidence. Most reasonable people prefer verifiable evidence, as I do, but what in the world difference does it make? Why fight over it? Believing something doesn't make it so.

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» agreed Posted by: happyhermit
» agreed Posted by: happyhermit
Atheism is not a Belief System
Posted by: munchkinpup on Mar 22, 2008 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Atheism scares the hell out of people, and it is nearly impossible to have a rational and intelligent conversation about it.
If one professes atheistic or agnostic beliefs they are perceived as being a threat to all religious faiths.

Atheism is simply not having a religious belief system--it is the ABSENCE of a belief in god or gods, not a belief system in itself.

Hedges wants to sell books, and the more inflammatory the title, the better to sell books with?! This country is in danger of becoming a theocracy, and Hedges anti-atheism rantings are completely irresponsible. I sincerely doubt if the "New Atheism" will be taking over the population any time soon.

Church of the "New Atheism" anyone??

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Amen to most of those points
Posted by: happyhermit on Mar 22, 2008 1:14 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hedges is wonderful mediator and a breath of fresh air. I agree with most of his points except--

1.) the idea that the "liberal church" is monolithic and impotent. i'm not a member of the liberal church (or any church) but i do work with plenty of activists coming from these organizations and many of them are passionate and selfless in manner and tradition of MLK. also, with their coordinated acts of civil disobedience, they can be relatively effective in meeting certain ends. also, some live in abject poverty, and are not bourgeoisie. hedges does a lot of grouping people together in his appeals not to group people together.

2.) if you sit in a room for 4 hours every day and meditate on love and compassion, you CAN improve yourself. science has taught us, through neuroplasticity, that we can sculpt our neuropathways, through hard work, to walk down many roads. many religious--buddhism in particular--have been practicing this for centuries. the idea that an individual cannot progress morally is untrue. the idea that we cannot organize ourselves into communities of individuals who are learning to progress morally is also untrue. hedges doesn't prove his pessimism, he simply states it. also, i''m writing this from holland. although there is a lot of muslim/secular/christian conflict brewing here, i can't help but notice that Europe in general has made tremendous moral and societal progress in the past 100 years. i'm not positing the inevitability--or even the possibility--of utopia, but hedges could benefit from some balanced thinking here.

3.) i had a third point but i forgot it. so much for perfection.

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The unwise Doctrine of Original Sin
Posted by: Cathyc on Mar 22, 2008 1:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chris Hedges wrote:

"But more ominously, the New Atheists ignore the wisdom of Original Sin, as well as studies in cognitive behavior, that illustrate that human nature is often irrational and flawed."

I don't know that the doctrine of Original Sin can be honestly described as "wise", since it is the belief, or claim that we humans are all born with the 'stain' of so-called Original Sin on our souls. In other words, we are "born evil" and (therefore) we need Jesus Christ as our "saviour" in order to be free of that inherent evil, as per Roman Catholic dogma.

What is wise about terrorising innocent children on a daily basis with such lies? What is wise about repeatedly telling children that they are very bad people? Nothing. Nothing at all.

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New Atheists??
Posted by: Doubtom on Mar 22, 2008 1:50 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is a new atheist? Is it a designator accepted by the atheists? Or is it just another of the many adjectives used by the god-believers to "divide the enemy and conquer"? No one needs more qualifiers--atheists are joined in their lack of belief in a god, while believers "believe" in one or more. Calling them "hard' or "soft" or "new" clarifies nothing.

If Hedges finds atheists, new or otherwise, to be intolerant, I would at least agree to the accuracy of that claim as it applies to me. I've always had a very low threshold for ignorance which lies at the base of all religions. A pox on all religions and a plague on all of its purveyors.

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» RE: New Atheists?? Posted by: Cathyc
The term "Darwinism"
Posted by: carcinoid112 on Mar 22, 2008 1:52 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a made-up word. Just like the word "Christianity".

Jesus did NOT claim to be a Christian. He didn't know the word in any form. Somebody made up that word, based on THEIR interpretation of what Jesus said. It was THEIR interpretation, but it probably wasn't exactly what most "christians" believe.

Now, Darwin wrote books, and promoted HIS thought processes. "Darwinism" is a word made up by people. It shorthands a belief in evolution.

By that sense, I'm a Darwinist. I'm also a Christian. And for those of you who are preparing to tell me I am wrong, fuck you. It's MY mind, it's MY intersection of faith and science, and it's MY prerogative to have spent years thinking this all through. When YOU rule the world, you can try to change my mind through ridicule or force. Until then, STFU, 'K??

The author of this article made some good points. He also made some stupid ones. He's got the "jargon" of this stupid 'social conflict' so wrapped around his head that it clouds his thoughts. (Original sin?? WTF?? We can read the educational background and get your Superior Holy Education Component, you don't need to jargonize us to show it off.) And it's ALL irrelevant to WHAT HUMANS DO.

But somebody HAS to write books to refute OTHER books so that the Publishing World can think it's relevant. Over the next few years, as the global economy crashes, it's going to be less of this and more about HOW do we survive. At that point, maybe most of us can quit bickering over who has the best kind of brain wiring, and try to refute the 'no progress' crap he dished out.

Quit looking for differences and start working on similarities. You'll find that MOST of us, whatever our beliefs/lack of beliefs are, really want to have a tolerable life, and want the same for others as well. All the rest is mental masturbation (please, folks, contrary to all recent internet use and a Seinfeld episode, it's spelled mastUrbation, OK?) and that's only pleasurable if you can't stand the realities of social intercourse (that's in the verbal sense there).

People, all kinds of people. They're pretty nice, once you quit trying to force them into YOUR preconceptions.

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» RE: The term "Darwinism" Posted by: daniel1982
Dangerous Atheism
Posted by: SunnyHill on Mar 22, 2008 2:09 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chris Hedges, you say "These New Atheists, like all religious fundamentalists, fail to grasp the dark reality of human nature, our own capacity for evil and the morally neutral universe we inhabit. There is nothing in human nature or human history to support the idea that we are morally advancing as a species or that we will overcome the flaws of human nature." I disagree with you. Personally I have clearly moved higher on the morality scale in my 82 years so far and expect to do more before I'm done. I also see many others and groups doing the same today. I think it's all a matter of "What information tit do you suck from?" What filters are operative in your mind?

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» RE: Dangerous Atheism Posted by: morticia
A good firend of mine
Posted by: Quasar on Mar 22, 2008 2:13 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
who grew up catholic but who lost interest in high school only to regain it in college has now - some twenty years later - taken up the mantle of the Atheists in Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris. Although I have never been a participant in any religion (I never understood what my friends really did every Sunday), I consider myself a spiritual person and have, as early as the sixth grade, been interested in religion. So, when my friend told me of his "new faith" in no faith at all, I was a little disappointed. I felt that he had lost something in himself. I understood his resentment against the church, but i also thought that his reaction was ill-considered. It had somehting to do with his nose in spite of his face. I heard Harris speak, I told him, and as much as I understood Harris's argument, it was just an argument - merely academic; moreover, it's an arguemnt AGAINST religion (nothing, if not as counterpoint) that is nevertheless, as Hedges correctly points out, just as dogmatic. Their argument is a clever construction that doesn't answer the fundamental question of the human spirit. And just as dogma kills the spirituality in religion so does their dogma kill the "reason" in Atheism.

Would that something as simple as common decency could be the moral measure of our sciences and religions and politics and if we found that it were missing from any one of them that we would re-evaluate what our sciences and religions and politics are teaching us.

I trust that my friend's common decency hasn't changed one way or the other.

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» RE: A good firend of mine Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: A good firend of mine Posted by: Doubtom
Pot calling the kettle black
Posted by: lh on Mar 22, 2008 2:22 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hedges creates a new class of atheists, "new atheists" and then proceeds to accuse them of the same thing that he really has a hand in. I have not read Harris' book and I won't jump to any conclusions based on Hedges excerpt.

I heard Hedges debating Harris at UCLA and thought he was trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. When talking about dictators that he said were atheists, he put Hitler into that category. However, Hitler was quite obviously religious based on his own writings.

I would like to ask Hedges if he believes in the Medusa or Pan or any of the other characters that are part of Greek and Roman mythology. If not, why not? Is it any less believable than the belief in someone rising from the dead? If that story had been part of the typical collection of Greek stories, it would be written off as just another fable. Giving degrees in theology or religious studies makes as much sense as separating mythology from literature courses and giving a degree in it.

And believing that faith is innate is insane! A child no more is born into this world with innate religious/spiritual beliefs than is it born to have racial or chauvinistic prejudices. The child has to be taught such things.

Religion has played a large part in the majority of wars in the world. Whether the breakup of Yugoslavia started out as political, it quickly devolved into a religious conflict with ethnic cleansing.

Hedges should pull himself out of the dark ages and embrace logic. Do I believe that logic governs the way the world works today? No. There are too many religious people at the helm - our own country is a perfect example.

It doesn't take religious figures to teach morals, it just takes moral people, and not all moral people are religious.

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A Couple Things
Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 22, 2008 2:39 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am an agnostic tending towards atheist, and I know many atheists and have read here on Alternet the comments of many atheists. My experience is that hardly any, if any, non-theists believe any of the garbage, such as wiping out millions of Muslims with nuclear bombs, that Hedges claims "New Atheists" believe. Quite the opposite.

And live-and-let-live, I say, when it comes to religion. You go ahead and believe in any mythology you desire, as long as you don't force it on me. And if you don't try to make me believe the way you do in regards to the unprovable, then I will return the favor.

As for the claim that we are not advancing as a civilization, maybe this is actually true over the short term. Who would have guessed years ago, for instance, that torture and domestic spying and wars based on lies would become in any way acceptable to modern day Americans?
Maybe our species does progress, but we have the capability to regress as well.
Yet I cannot buy completely into the idea of original sin. Are, as an example, ALL Americans guilty for the crimes of the Bush administration? The crimes are huge. Does their hugeness imply that those who are not directly connected to them are more to blame than otherwise? Maybe we all do share some of the blame, as miniscule as that blame is. For that infinitesimal amount of responsibility multiplied by the size of the crimes equals perhaps a large number. I must admit, this issue of original sin, especially in relation to the crimes of America's government (as opposed to its people), bothers me. Rationally, I know it is madness. But emotionally, on the other hand, I know that others around the world blame me and everyone I love for President Bush's crimes. I hope they are wrong, but maybe they are right.

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DANGEROUS???
Posted by: wwittman on Mar 22, 2008 2:51 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd like to see some actual evidence that atheists are "dangerous"

whereas there is ample proof that religion is.

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» RE: DANGEROUS??? Posted by: carcinoid112
This article is awful. Here's three reasons why.
Posted by: izzyK on Mar 22, 2008 3:01 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do not regard this as a harsh judgment of the article and for three basic reasons.

1) This article was composed incompetently. For whatever reason, there are several paragraphs which are repeated word-for-word. For example, the first paragraph of Page 2 and the third paragraph of Page 3 are the exact same paragraph

The real insufferable part about this is hedges writing style in this is so reptitive and so without any structure of argument that things like repeating entire paragraphs slip by unnoticed. If this really is an accurate extract of the book,it doesn't bode well for Hedges' case on the whole.

2)Chris Hedges mischaracterizes the writings of the New Atheists to such an extent one wonders whether he has crossed beyond merely polemicizing into outright smearing and fabrication.

An example:

"Harris, echoing the blood lust of Hitchens, calls, in his book The End of Faith, for a nuclear first strike against the Islamic world"


He then quotes Harris to the effect that, if it entailed preventing a probable nuclear attack by an "islamist regime" a nuclear first strike would be justified. So at what point did "islamist regime", a government, become the muslim world, over one billion people? In Hedges imagination.

I have read Harris' book twice, i see great fault with many of his arguments. Yet this assertion appears nowhere in The End of Faith or Letter to a Christian nation.

another much cruder example:

"The New Atheists misuse Darwin and evolutionary biology as egregiously as the Christian fundamentalists misuse the Bible. Darwinism, which pays homage to the final and complete mastery of our animal natures, never posits that human beings can transcend their natures and create a human paradise"

When and where have the New Atheists, any of them at all, posited an "earthly paradise"? What's more, does anyone know what the heck Hedges means by the 'mastery of our animal natures'? This piece is rife with utterly opaque statements like this but it's the content that leads me to my third reason for believing this article to be awful.

3) While he might have some sympathy for this on the Alternet board here, Hedges' comments on progress, faith and human nature are disturbing. He asserts in the repeated paragraph that people simply do not make "moral progress", that they have a dark nature that cannot be overcome, projects like the New Atheists' are folly, Hedges' attitude here is quite a typical 'postmodern' one.

One cannot be sanguine about this, such a perspective is bunk, and in an obvious sense neo-conservative. It is thankfully untrue in the sense that while yes, it is obvious that "new forms of exploitation" have arisen and things like environmental degradation are very real. But let's look at some of the old demons that have been slayed by what we might call progress in just the past 200 years in just the US:

-chattel slavery
-restricted suffrage
-public mass lynchings
-whites-only drinking fountains
-the widespread use of patent medecines and faux cures for every ailment
-the use of chldren in mines and factories

Maybe you could call it political progress and opine that humans essential natures haven't changed, if that's the case, than who cares? We have changed human behavior in obvious ways or none of these changes would've stuck.

Hedges, however, sees all modern problems as intractable, a result of 'human hubris' and would implore us instead to seek refuge in our particular cultural truths and see reason and technology scaled back accordingly. But this would simply do nothing at all to tackle the world's problems which do indeed have the possiblity of resolution in reason, science, and democracy.

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» Evolution Posted by: Cathyc
Morrie_Edwards
Posted by: morrie_edwards on Mar 22, 2008 3:07 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hitchens has indeed gone off the deep end. His book 'God is not Great' is a magnificent indictment of religion, but his positions on the Iraq war, and Islamic fundamentalism in general, are beyond absurdity. You can't fight fundamentalism with bombs and bullets, and the Iraq war was all about controlling oil, not opposing fundamentalism or establishing democracy.

Hedges' criticisms of Hitchens and Harris, however, completely miss the point. Neither are calling for human perfectibility. The central tenet of the new atheism could be more accurately stated as: it's 2008, the world is in a really dangerous and messed up place, and there's little hope of dealing with the problems facing humanity if we base our decisions on irrationality and medieval belief systems.

OF COURSE we shouldn't be attacking people because of their religious beliefs, and demonizing the entire Muslim world is insane. But this is not the core message of Harris at least.

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Our ultimate responsibilities
Posted by: GPFrank on Mar 22, 2008 3:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have read 'War . . gives us meaning.." but not the later book of Hedges on which the
previous posts conflict. Therefore I have to reserve an opinion except to comment that he
has touched on criticisms of the issues on all sides, whether or not one considers that 'wussy"

But what underlies these discussions is a debate on the behaviors of leaders and adherents to these different beliefs and how actual behaviors ultimately seem to determine the validity of what they are talking about. The process of argument itself as it goes on seems to generate hatred as opposed
to simple passion. This is reflected in these very posts. Some posts seem to project a feeling that some other posts or the subject itself actually does them physical harm from the page.

What happens here on these pages is an example of how delicate is the part of the brain that
causes moral behavior and thinking and how easily it slips from control of the person.
Chris Hedges' earlier volume reflects the way, historically people;: societies; whole nations have fallen under the leadership of individuals whose morality and character is way inferior to them as individuals. The amount of responsibility that the most recent and highest developed part of the brain is too much for it to bear so that these individuals give up their individuality and identify themselves
with the patently immoral. The immoral leadership evolves into shallowness. ruthlessness and brutality.

At the same time individuals who have been abused or identify closely with the abused become paranoid to the extent that words from a page are perceived as doing them physical harm.

We need to get back to asking what is real evil and then ask how to prevent it. What is actual spirituality, on the other hand?

The web site cited below contains a compendium of contemporary studies of the science of evil. It includes an essay of how societies as whole become pathological. It chronicles the relationship between psychopaths and societies and how psychopaths come to dominate groups and nations. It relates how they empathise with
the dark side of normal individuals. It examines the difference between antisocial, asocial personalities such a serial killers
and true psychopaths. It reveals the fact that the population of psychopaths is endemic throughout all regions of the world.
Most importantly it lays out pathways in which to study the etiology of psychopathology and brain damage, especial the frontal region.
Then the purpose is to ask is how all this can be prevented. How can we acquire immunity to evil tendencies before they break out as a disease such as the Iraq war?
It ask such questions as to how pregnancies and birthing can be improve to prevent the occurrence of serious brain damage in some four percent of the population? How can up bringing of children be improved to protect them
from abuse so as to not enhance the effects of brain damage? How can we avoid having a population of brain damaged and traumatized soldiers among us?

(Dis assembled to conform to posting rules:)

http:/

/www.cassiopaea.org/

cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski_2.htm

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But we can't run away from our common humanity - sink or swim
Posted by: stellabloo on Mar 22, 2008 3:44 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joseph Campbell, from "The Power of Myth"

"People say that what we're all seeking is a meaning for life. I don't think that's what we're really seeking.
I think that what we're seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive. That's what it's all finally about, and that's what these [mythical] clues help us to find within ourselves."

The best scientific minds admit that, after all the evidence is in, we have no evidence FOR or AGAINST the existence of a Creator. Other than the fact of the fractional odds of life emerging as it has, considering that self-organization of increasing complexity IMHO COMPLETELY violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Which brings me back to Point A, see above ;)

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» No evidence for or against... Posted by: morticia
» You can always.... Posted by: LeaderofMen
» RE: You can always.... Posted by: morticia
» RE: You can always.... Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: You can always.... Posted by: morticia
Hold up bit...
Posted by: SamFox on Mar 22, 2008 3:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The utopian dream of a perfect society and a perfect human being, the idea that we are moving towards collective salvation, is one of the most dangerous legacies of the Christian faith and the Enlightenment."

Any Christian who believes the above is out of touch with the Bible teaching about salvation. According to the New Test. no Christian will be made perfect 'till Jesus returns. While the Bible teaches that Christians should be salt & light in the world, influencing society by example & the love of Christ, it does not teach that we are supposed to bring about a perfect society. This would be an impossible goal any way since total perfection is attainable only at Christ's one & only 2nd advent (no Rapture or left behind). No Christian living on this planet is perfect nor can they be till then.

Though the N.T. does mention something about 'common salvation', the term is used in reference to the salvation all Christians share, not that we humans are moving along towards a common salvation which at some point all humanity will be defaulted into. That is not a Bible teaching.

One big problem for Christians are the CIPOs. (Christian In Profession Only.) GWB for example has hurt us very badly in this & many other regards. Clinton did not do us any favors either.

SamFox

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» Right you are Posted by: billfurioso
FOR LONG WEB SITE LINKS YOU CAN USE
Posted by: SamFox on Mar 22, 2008 4:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3bh7va

This is a cool site that shortens long URLs for space saving. Check it out. It works very well.

SamFox

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The real Atheists
Posted by: purereason on Mar 22, 2008 4:31 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real atheists are those believers who try to confine God to their prayers and beliefs that cannot hold any sign intelligence. They had been telling these lies over thousands of years, and these lies have become the greatest cause of manslaughter all over the world. It is time to pack off these silly ones who try to malign human conscience.

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So much discussion ...
Posted by: JP-1 on Mar 22, 2008 5:09 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
over superstition. What about black cats? My mother told me to never cross one's path.

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The danger comes from the so-called truth.
Posted by: radiomorning on Mar 22, 2008 5:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read "End of Faith" and "God is Not Great," and found that both had substantial arguments against organized religion, but used religion as a scapegoat for many things. I think these men sell a lot of books because they give nonbelievers a place to focus their anger about our problems.

Our nations and communities have often been hijacked by those citing religious belief, but I agree with Hedges that religion itself is not neccesarily the root of these things.

While I am still against organized religion as a matter of intellectual principle, it is not the words of Jesus or Muhammed that cause us to kill and hate. I think it is something inherently human, or animal, that causes our willingness to kill. A reptile brain territoriality leftover from our ancestors.

I disagree with Hedges, however, that we have no hope of bettering ourselves, not perfecting, but bettering ourselves and increasing our chances of making it through this intellectual adolescece through education and enlightenment. It would be hopeless not to believe it was possible.

And why, then, would I be so against killing and hatred when others who have been co-opted by some group claiming to have 'the truth,' be it a religious or atheist truth, are so willing to kill?

It is the truth itself which is dangerous. I admit that we are all looking and none of us have found, and that keeps me from having a reason to hate.

There is no room left for absolutes in our pursuit of better understanding of ourselves and the cosmos. Theism and Atheism are both absolutes by definition, and therefore we can accept neither.

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????????????
Posted by: LRayn on Mar 22, 2008 6:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Besides Christopher Hitchens, who clearly has a libertarian political philosophy, where does Hedges find all those atheists who believe in some sort of automatic progress, whether scientific, political, moral or anything else?

I am an atheist, and so are many of my friends. Not one of us would agree with Hedge's portrayal of us.

The whole point of being an atheist (or scientist) is to accept that one's hypotheses about the world are not always true. Every belief must be tested in the real world. Belief without evidence is merely "faith," something atheists do not have.

Social progress, as in equality, sustainability, etc., takes a lot of hard work. It's not guaranteed.

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Getting clarity on this subject
Posted by: racetoinfinity on Mar 22, 2008 7:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The best analyst and best current book that unpacks and clarifies the very confusing and confused topic of pre-rational religion, rational atheism, and trans-rational spirituality is -

Ken Wilber's "Integral Spirituality"

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I'm an athiest and I don't know where you get off being among the people who are afraid of us
Posted by: snarlah on Mar 22, 2008 7:51 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't have to be religious, I'm not religious, and I don't have to love other people's religions. I believe that religion is completely man-made, caused by fear of death and by not understanding what's happening in the world or the universe. I am certain that it has caused more death and torture than any other single cause. I expect better articles in AlterNet.

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It is sad
Posted by: oxheadone on Mar 22, 2008 8:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to read so many thoughtful comments, almost all demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding of Islam. Christianity basically is a belief concerned with salvation. Islam is a total way of life in a community of fellow believers. It is possible for a non-Catholic to be a good Christian all alone in the forest. A Catholic needs the Church for salvation; this comes closer to Islam and, in olden times, the religious and secular power was united in Church figures (usually, bishops). Western Europe went through great struggles to liberate the state from the church and, in some countries(e.g. Great Britain, the head of state is still the head of the church). The repetition of the one god concept adds to the confusion of comparing religions. Whether or not there is one god, different religions have different views of what that god wants them to do - and religious texts, in general, only add to that confusion. Just as there as many competitive versions of Chritianity, there are a number of competitive versions of Islam, but they all emphasize community and total way of life. Also, while the vast majority of believers are largely heavily engaged in ordinary life, fanatics can arouse the general public. This is what makes organized religion dangerous to human life. Even the most reasonable persons tend to feel (subconsciously) that the fanatics are the true believers. Virtually all civilizations we know of have something like religion; there must be a good reason. While that reason may be that people tend to be frightened and stupid about the world they are born into, it cannot be the complete answer. Remember, when the Isrealites were in the desert, escaping from Egypt, and came to the mountain where their leader was able to speak directly to God, what great mysteries were disclosed? All that God seemed to want was for them to remember their God with respect and behave themselves decently to each other. And with all the adoration offered to the ten commandments, lots of people still haven't be able to do it.

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beyond Hedges and Harris and Hitchens
Posted by: Ripcord on Mar 22, 2008 9:38 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hedges reveals his realistic vision of human nature as thoroughly delusion ridden.

However, he unrealistically asserts that we must "accept the severe limitations of being human."

Thus, he categorically faults atheists Harris and Hitchens for believing in progress and ignoring this reality of human frailty.

He writes that, "Those who insist we are morally advancing as a species are deluding themselves."

But his view stems from seeing the relationship between reality and delusion as mutually exclusive polar opposites, that one is the simple negation of the other.

This leads to pessimism.

If, however, one sees their relationship as foci of their functions, it can lead to optimism.

When reality is the focus, we can see that it functions to clarify delusion; the depth of delusions are unfolded.

When delusion is the focus, we can see that it functions to expand the horizons of reality; virtue and judgment are informed.

The two notions interact with one another.
Their nondual unity is much more dynamic and complex.
They are working companions, they need each other.

These notions can be used pragmatically as tools to guide both atheists and believers to a better world together.

(see: Hee-Jin Kim, "Dogen on meditation and thinking: a reflection on his view of Zen," State University of New York, 2007)

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Hedges is right, there are a lot of dumb, bull-shitty atheists around these days
Posted by: logansafi on Mar 23, 2008 12:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think Hedges hit the nail on the head, there are a lot of idiot atheists out there who use there atheism, and supposed dedication to science, to arrive at total intolerance of different (from themselves) peoples.
Reading the comments by other atheists against his commentary about them, illustrates the point perfectly, as they do react to criticism in a manner clearly as intolerant as most religious zealots are. In fact, many of the atheists commenting about Hedge's article, seemed quite simply to not understand any at all of what they were reading. Kind of like conservative, religious zealots do when they read something more rational than their own nonsense. They get lost, too.

I am an atheist myself, and I laughed quite a bit at Hedges description of liberal American religious types. He described them perfectly, too, just as he did with the dumb-ass type atheists he is speaking out against. But back to what he says about the idiot atheist crowd out there, of which there are so very many that join this religion of the always supposedly rational.

Hedges is right. Many atheists make science and their belief that technological progress is some sort of grand trump suit into an intolerant religion of its own. I am a socialist, but there simply is no getting away that the Socialist Movement has oftentimes religiously thought that, if only the all-good working class could just get ahold of the means of production???, then technology on a mass scale would begin to solve all. That's what led Russian Soviet leaders to build overly massive factories of all sorts. They screwed things up quite well with their love for supposedly super rational production missing the mark quite badly.

In other words, logical linearism can be a rather deluded religion of its own and can also screw things up almost as bad as the religious crowds do. We are not in some march to a great future, whether it be the Kingdumb of Heaven under God, are some type of material heaven under control of a logical atheist population.

Thanks, alternet, for publishing this great commentary by Hedges. Don't let all the commentaries saying that this is a supposedly unworthy article by Hedges make you have second thoughts and move toward censoring more material that might be deemed offensive to these Oh so sensitive genius atheist types. They need to get off on thinking about themselves as being so damn great compared to believers in Gods, when that is not always so the case.

An Atheist

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» Utopian Dreams Posted by: kag123
Everyone is God
Posted by: thornwolf on Mar 23, 2008 5:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's nothing else to be.

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» RE: veryone is God Posted by: mark
» RE: veryone is God Posted by: radiomorning
Hedges IS Correct....
Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 23, 2008 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...about the complexity of human existence and the tendency of atheists to "deify" reason

But I am not as pessimistic about our species as Hedges seems to be. Not because I have emperic evidence but because I believe that "optimism is a MORAL imperative"-a phrase I coined in 1985.

So we must choose to live as if what Martin Luther King said "that the arc of human history bends toward justice" is true.

This human choice of hope despite sometimes evidence to the contrary is faith at its necessary essence.

This is why I call myself a spiritual humanist.

Dr.Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa

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» RE: Hedges IS Correct.... Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Hedges IS Correct.... Posted by: wwittman
» RE: Hedges IS Correct.... Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Hedges IS Correct.... Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Hedges IS Correct.... Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: Hedges IS Correct.... Posted by: bornxeyed
The Steady Erosion of Religion
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Mar 23, 2008 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The New Atheists embrace a belief system as intolerant, chauvinistic and bigoted as that of religious fundamentalists. They propose a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason."


The description of what atheism is is obviously incorrect. The reason why atheists advocate science and reason is because it works.

And it has steadily worked for hundreds of years. To wit. Let's just use Christianity as our example since it is the prevailing religion in the US.

For centuries it was believed that Jesus was born of a virgin birth. That was before the texts that were systemically burned by Christians, and purportedly lost, were recovered. When they were finally rediscovered it was determined that pagans had long since held virgin births to be the norm. Christianity had simply absorbed this concept so that they could bring pagans into their religion.

Science. Knowledge.


Religious scholars believed that all languages were derived from Hebrew. Thus, an attempt to trace back all languages to Hebrew was begun. Lucky for us, they worked on it really hard. But what did they discover? They discovered that languages were NOT all derived from Hebrew because Hebrew was NOT the first language. Science. Knowledge.

It was believed for over 1000 years that the Earth was the center of the entire universe. Believed. Until observation took over. Then science and knowledge determined that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

It's all about belief being superceded by KNOWLEDGE. Religion is always about BELIEF. Religion is always eroded with KNOWLEDGE. That is why all 'good' religions, eg, the ones that are mainstream and those that are fundamentalist in nature MUST by their very definition be hostile toward knowledge.

That is why advocates of religion always always always dispute facts. Facts get in the way of belief.

The advancement of civilization is always behind the knowledge curve. It is NEVER and WILL never be behind a belief curve. In fact, it is clear and obvious that the more fundamentalist a culture is the more steeped they are in BELIEF.

Atheists hold that it is knowledge that paves the way to a more advanced society. And advancement has happened over the centuries DESPITE the destructive nature of religion.

I do not use the word 'destructive' lightly. All cultures that hold firm to beliefs are destructive in nature. Enlightenment is not possible. Advancement is met with derision. Thought is suspect. Look at the Inquisition to see how this played out. Look at Muslim extremists today to see how this is playing out right now (yes, there are other factors at work with them: US involvement in their land, their own country's rulers, etc.).

Belief is the issue here. Belief vs. knowledge.

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» RE: The Steady Erosion of Religion Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: The Steady Erosion of Religion Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» "Only one is right"? Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: "Only one is right"? Posted by: daniel1982
» Religion also has questions. Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: eligion also has questions. Posted by: radiomorning
» RE: eligion also has questions. Posted by: daniel1982
» Questions Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Questions Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Questions Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Questions Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Questions Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Questions Posted by: Intellect
» A reporter asked a Navajo... Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Questions Posted by: Intellect
happy easter
Posted by: aalif ba ta tha on Mar 23, 2008 9:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
sorry Chris Hedges. The idea that eternal salvation is possible by accepting some dude crucified 2000 years ago as god is stupid. I know that's "mean," but it's true. These beliefs are misguided and grounded in zero evidence whatsoever. So is the idea that Muhammad was some heavenly messenger.

Atheists who point this out are not dogmatic utopians, they are just subjecting religion to the rigors of scientific criticism.

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» RE: happy easter Posted by: LeeAnnG
» What? Posted by: billfurioso
» RE: What? Posted by: aalif ba ta tha
Mr.
Posted by: bar5608 on Mar 23, 2008 9:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Regarding the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers. The heat created by burning jet fuel is certainly the factor which caused the collapse. But not because the steel beams melted. They were weakened by the heat enough to cause them to sag, which put an enormous strain on the bolts at the ends of the beams. That strain was enough to shear off the bolts and let the floor drop onto the next floor adding enough strain there to cause the shearing effect to each successive floor. It was a design flaw. Those beams should have been welded. The Towers would still be standing if the beams had been welded.
Thank you. bar5608.

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» RE: Mr. Posted by: radiomorning
humans as flawed is myth
Posted by: rapideye23 on Mar 23, 2008 10:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with much of what the author is saying but, I don't agree that humans are intrinsically flawed. This myth has been pervasive in our culture for at least 2000 years, and if we are going to rise above our current environmental/political and social predicament and avoid total destruction we need to recognize that.
It is possible for humans to live in community with the world, the problem is not that we are flawed it's just that we forgot, long ago, how to live by the natural laws that govern all life. Not only did we set ourselves outside of those laws by believng that we are superior to all other life, but, also by believing we are intrinsically flawed. It excuses us from f**king up the planet, because , after all we can't help it, we're flawed. All we have to remember is to live by the laws that support all life. They are much like the laws of aerodynamics; you can defy them for a brief period, but, if you go too long, you will crash.
These laws are: Take only what you need. Don't kill off the competition or the competitions food source. Fight only for survival, or self-defense.
To learn more about this philosophy on the laws of nature and how humans fit into them read ISHMAEL by Daniel Quinn.

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» Humans as flawed is myth Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Humans as flawed is myth Posted by: rapideye23
you a wacko
Posted by: tclaverdure on Mar 23, 2008 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
wow are your a wacko. I do not believe in God, yet I am not an atheist. To be an atheist one must define oneself against a fairytale creature (god). Yup religion is bogus folks, a mind virus infecting the weak of mind. But hey your free to whoreship as you please. In fact its the nonbelievers that are persecuted more than believers. Most born agains would sooner have a child be a homosexual than a nonbeliever.

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pianogirl
Posted by: dcotner on Mar 23, 2008 12:18 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have not read Hitchen's book, but Chris Hedges makes sense to me...Hey, I'm even an atheist !

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Atheists Commentary
Posted by: SatanicJamboree on Mar 23, 2008 1:50 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I always cringe a bit when I see anti-atheist books and articles...given the fundamentalist backlash this country has been suffering from in recent decades. I have some criticism of Hedges article...he does sometimes fall into generalizations he's not fully supported and could use better editing. But the absurdly hyperbolic comments here from the atheist ideological camp (with few exceptions) have in fact validated Hedges essential arguments.

Atheism is an "ism"...i.e., it is a belief system of its own. To say it's simply "non-belief" is disingenuous--abstaining from embracing some belief system about the nature of the universe and the existence or non-existence of God is agnosticism--a true "non-belief" perspective by definition. Making a pronouncement that there IS no god, that you will not entertain the belief of anything beyond a purely materialistic, mechanistic conception of the universe IS a belief system.

I do not believe in any recognizable conception of a deity in the modern, western tradition--but I cannot say that I'm an atheist, and I eschew that label--because that's an "ism" that I find--like Hedges--to be too often just as doctrinaire, just as intolerant and just as morally repugnant as any other form of fundamentalism.

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» RE: Atheists Commentary Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Atheists Commentary Posted by: bornxeyed
» A Matter of Semantics Posted by: LeeAnnG
Refuting Hedges
Posted by: pzbrawl on Mar 23, 2008 3:26 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Hedges says “New Atheists embrace a belief system as intolerant, chauvinistic and bigoted as that of religious fundamentalists.” That is incorrect. Alas, since Hedges can read, this claim of his qualifies as a lie, since “new" atheists like Dawkins express no belief system.

2. Hedges says we atheists “propose a route to collective salvation and the moral advancement of the human species through science and reason.” We propose _nothing_ with respect to salvation. Nor do we speak of “perfect” individuals or societies.

3. Contradicting himself within one paragraph, Hedges admits Yugoslav religious leaders “signed on for the slaughter directed by ethnic nationalist leaders in Zagreb, Belgrade and Sarajevo”, yet he claims “religion had nothing to do with the war.” For that to be so, Yugoslav religious leaders would have to have zero influence. Very unlikely.

4. “New atheists” do not hold that “we will overcome the flaws of human nature.” That is a straw man.

5. Yes, Hitchens supports war in many contexts. That is not an argument against either old or new atheism.

6. No scientific evolutionist “posits that human beings can transcend their natures and create a human paradise.” Hedges' suggestion that they do is nuts.

7. To cite Augustine and Freud against Dawkins and Dennett is farce. So is misrepresenting Dawkins and Dennett as purveying “sqalid little belief systems”.

It's odd to see a hothead like Hedges misidentifying rationalists as mirrors of himself. It makes you wonder.

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» RE: efuting Hedges Posted by: texshelters
Crazies w/zero knowledge = Rational Skepticism
Posted by: johnclark on Mar 23, 2008 3:56 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry Chris, these jerks will ALWAYS descend any time one of their "issues" gets seriously discussed anywhere. They are an "army" of over-educated know-nothings who have nothing else going on in their lives but to attack.

I had no clue they even existed until I posted a pro homeopathy comment here one day. Not only do they hate God, they also hate alternative medicine.

It it interesting to see how they talk about religion but only mean Abrahamic religion, as those billions of us who have other religions don't exist. Ethnocentric is maybe the word I'm looking for. I've been using the term fundamentalist-atheist to describe them myself; I'm glad to see the term getting into wide use. The best way to destroy a germ is by sunlight.

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In America's Nuke Labs, Scientists Think They Are "Advancing Freedom," Science is Value Neutral
Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 23, 2008 4:36 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am no evangelical christian, but the bottom line, the belief in science to solve all our problems, like the belief in endless technology and the old "better living through better chemistry, etc, idealogy" is a pipe dream. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, they were all so-called "athetists," and they were going to create the perfect man and the perfect society. Hitler was into Eugenics to "reproduce" his version of the perfect man, the Nordic type of Prussia. Stalin believed in the primacy of the state over the individual, his collectivized agriculture of the Ukraine a case in point. Twenty million died. Today, thousands of scientists work in America's nuclear laboratories. The goal, to design better nuclear weapons. To them, they are helping America and the cause of freedom. How do you tell them otherwise? Science is "value neutral," it can be either used for good or bad. Nothing in it dictates how it should be used.

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» hitler was a christian Posted by: rapideye23
Forgiveness?
Posted by: Stopthehate on Mar 23, 2008 5:49 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"This belief in inevitable moral progress, whether it comes in secular or religious form, is magical thinking. The secular version of this myth peddles fables no less fantastic, and no less delusional, than those preached from church pulpits. The battle under way in America is not a battle between religion and science. It is a battle between religious and secular fundamentalists. It is a battle between two groups intoxicated with the Utopian and magical belief that humankind can protect itself and master its destiny."

That's very true. Our technological advances through science have not seemed to improve life, but only make it worst in many ways. On the other hand, I've never been to a single church that believes we can create some sort Utopia on this side of the grave, as Mr. Hedges accuses churches of doing along with those who worship science. Every church I have been to talks about sin, forgiveness of sin through God, and the ultimate destruction of mankind because of sin, like in the Book of Revelations. Also, there is one thing that really confuses me about what Mr. Hedges wrote here. Mr. Hedges believes in Original Sin, but mentions absolutely nothing about the resolution to such a dilemma.

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» RE: Forgiveness? Posted by: Intellect
HL Mencken had it right...
Posted by: BenjamminH on Mar 23, 2008 7:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...and it applies to fundies, many atheists, Hedges, and 95% of the above posts:

It is the dull man who is always sure and the sure man who is always dull.

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Hedges Sat Back and Allowed 98% of You Prove His Point, Backbighting, Hateful, Inhumane, Simple.....
Posted by: Turiye on Mar 23, 2008 7:19 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...name calling by simplistic, quite lacking in vocabulary persons that reiterate the same thing, as the next! As in Religion, as in Believers. Ponerology is quite along your line of inhumane remarks of hatred. Hegemony by Atheism, the improved? Atheists. My, you AOL bloggers see Atheism on any site, you are on it, you know only one thing, and of that single thing you know very little.
This site as well as CD do not tolerate inhumanity, insults, casting dispersions on anothers character, rascism and pure hatred of others. You should read the Constitution and THE BILL OF RIGHTS, as in Amendment.I.
Go home to your silly hate filled blogs, Thanks Chris, they put your book at #1 on the NYT Best Seller list by acting as you explained to a tee!

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Another Relevant But True Cliche
Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 23, 2008 7:55 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PRACTICE BEING KIND INSTEAD OF BEING RIGHT!

Rick Lippin

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» RE: Another Relevant But True Cliche Posted by: drricklippin
Christopher Hitchens was born full of shit.
Posted by: Longdream on Mar 23, 2008 8:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And he hasn't changed a bit.

And who in the the hell is Sam Harris?

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We criticize religion so we're bigots!
Posted by: texshelters on Mar 23, 2008 9:17 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christopher Hitchens, while being an arrogant prig, is right on when he talks about the harm religion does in the world. Why focus on what he says about Islam? He attacks Catholicism, Protestantism and Judaism with the same vigor.

Why is it dangerous to tell the truth about religion and what people do in the name of these religions. Why is it harmful to point out lies and fabrications? Certainly, Hitchens is not kind and generalizes a bit much. He does it to make his point.

Tex Shelters

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Premature ejaculation
Posted by: independent1 on Mar 23, 2008 9:33 PM   
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Seems like Hedges is guilty of at least one of the sins committed by most of "the loudest voices" these days: That is, he makes absolute statements about things which are either too complex for that kind of characterization or which are still in flux and therefore not amenable to conclusive statements.

Balkans: who cares, could be one response. After all - those people have been murdering each other since the days of Vlad Dracule.

Atheism vs Religion: again, who cares because that conflict is obviously part of the extremist, polarized mind set which has plagued early 21st Century America.

I do think that people aught to be alarmed at the amount of influence over our politicians "enjoyed" by the religious right. I also agree that atheism tends to be an extremist's answer to religion. Hedges touches on this when he says that religion and atheists both tend to argue from a utopian premise and he's right when he says they'd both commit or condone mass slaughter if it suited them. But then Hedges is concentrating on atheism as the primary evil - which I cannot believe. He's probably just trying to earn a living with these "filler" pieces for Alternet.

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Fox would love this guy
Posted by: ankhet on Mar 24, 2008 8:24 AM   
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"The institutional church has often used its power and religious authority to sanctify cruelty and exclusion." That's exactly what Hitchens says in his book. Hitchens does not demonize Muslims. He points out the faults in how interpretations of Islam have been used to oppress others. Same as with Christianity and Judaism. These writers are disappointed in and frustrated with religious institutions that use their versions of "god's word" as a justification for cruelty and oppression. They conclude that our common religion has been a negative force and caused more harm than good for 2 millennia.

So far, they are right. The vengeful desert god must go. He's a bad example. The people of the book need a better book.

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Complex Subjects
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 24, 2008 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read Sam Harris's books, and I was taken aback by his attacks on Islam. Of course, he did also attack all religions, but much of his most vitriolic rhetoric was focused on Islam, and he did seem to advocate attacking Muslim countries. This was rather disturbing to me, as otherwise, I agreed with much of what he had to say.

I find it interesting that so many people still consider atheism to be a belief system. I used to think that the difference between atheism and agnosticism was that atheists are somehow "against" god, while agnostics "don't know." However, I've learned that atheism is a lack of belief in god, not a "hatred" of god. (Just as "amoral" means "without morals," and not "against morals" and "alexic" means "without the ability to read" instead of "against reading.")

It's also interesting that, quite often, Christians post here that non-believers "hate" god or "hate" Jesus. That's pretty much nonsense. I'm an agnostic - leaning toward atheism - and I most certainly do not hate god or Jesus. I simply do not believe that anyone can know god's characteristics or that the man who walked the earth 2,000 years ago was god personified. (Like Kurt Vonnegut, I believe that what Jesus taught was so wonderful, what difference does it make if he was god or not.)

Not believing in Santa does not mean a person "hates" the idea of Santa Clause - or any other fairy tale or religion that has somehow gone out of style. Very few people would contend that not believing in Zeus or Athena constitutes a "belief system," although it's possible that some Christians actually do hate the whole idea of Zeus or any other non-Christian god. I can't attest to that for sure.

Along the same lines, believing in the findings of science is not a "belief system." Perhaps one could argue that a belief in science as the cure for all man's ills is a "belief system," but that's stretching it.

Science is a method, a discipline, and an ongoing investigation. It's not an end in itself, and those who study science or utilize the scientific method in order to further their understanding of the world don't stop investigating just because they have reached certain conclusions.

For example, biologists don't simply state that evolution is the answer to all questions concerning creation and life. They continue to search for clues, information, and new evidence. This is consistent with the scientific method.

Science and religion are not comparable. Religion in all its forms is mostly mythology. There may be some historical facts involved, but it relies on a lot of elaboration and interpretation far beyond what physical evidence supplies. Once established, few deviations are accepted. No facts are necessary.

Science relies on physical evidence, investigation, and controlled studies to increase learning and understanding, not to come to stock conclusions that are written in stone. All scientific information is open to expansion and enhancement as new experiments and new methods of gathering data are uncovered.

All of this might be considered a matter of semantics, but there is an inherent difference between belief systems and methodologies. Religions are belief systems. Science is a methodology.

There is also a big difference between a belief system and a lack of belief. Atheism is a lack of belief. Trying to turn it into just another religion twists the argument around and allows true believers to say, "Well, you atheists have your religion and I have mine." It's absurd.

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» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: maddy
» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: Spot
» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: Spot
» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: Spot
» RE: Complex Subjects Posted by: Intellect
accuracy/journalism
Posted by: cherry2qtr on Mar 24, 2008 8:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your use of the term radical is incorrect. The term you want is reactionary.
Jesus was a radical, Hitler, Reagan and the current Bush were or are reactionaries.

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Mean Atheists
Posted by: MrX on Mar 24, 2008 4:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recently went to the American Atheists annual meeting. There were some extremely nice people there, but there were some really arrogant self righteous people as well.

I believe Chris Hedges is right. Anyone who is self righteous is a threat to other people. It's not a religion issue, it's an I'm better than you are issue. A person can use anything to tell themselves they are somehow better than another group of people.

Humans are irrational emotional beings. The best documentary I have seen that explains what Mr Hedges is talking about is Century of Self

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Popping self-righteousness
Posted by: ceti on Mar 25, 2008 1:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a scientist and atheist myself, I think Hedges is dead on. People like Harris and Hitchens are ideologues who use their brand of anti-religion as a cudgel against the same enemies as their religious allies. And I have met enough atheists who fall into this category of self-righteous know-it-alls who because of their "reason" and "free thinking" believe themselves far superior to the lesser mortals who still worship primitive gods.

Atheism is supposed to free us from dogma, not adopt new ones. We are supposed to question everything, especially authority, but also feel a shared kinship with suffering humanity, recognizing full well we only have each other in the absurd scheme of things.

Moreover, Atheists that proselytize are just as bad as missionaries. Aren't we supposed live and let live?

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» RE: Popping self-righteousness Posted by: Intellect
gods do not exist...but so what?
Posted by: Dboy on Mar 25, 2008 5:08 AM   
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What's the NEXT step? Educated humans figured this god-thing out several hundred years ago , yet way too many people are still obsessed with it. This is what I find unsatisfying about the current state of thought (people like Hitchens). Their message is so painfully obvious by now that there's really no sense in continuing to repeat it over and over again. But what's NEXT? What's the path for self-development, self-perfection, transformation, enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it? Seems to me that people like Ken Wilber (just one example) are on a much more interesting track than Hitchens. Atheism is old news. Now that we know it, we can move on to more interesting things.

dboy

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Pure Reason vs ignorance
Posted by: purereason on Mar 25, 2008 8:43 AM   
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In ancient times Pure Reason as a concept attracted some intellectuals. In ancient India the mind that belongs to the System of Life was said to be at its ‘kevala’ state, the implication being the mind at its pure state is capable of knowing the knowledge that belongs to the System. The kevala state was also called brahmanya which later led to the caste name for the priestly class (brahmin). Socrates said: “All nature is akin, and the soul has learned everything.” (Plato: The Collected Dialogues) Jaina Sutras (India) speaks thus about Mahaveera (599 - 527 BCE): “…being engaged in deep meditation, reached the highest knowledge and intuition, called Kevala, which is infinite, supreme, unobstructed, unimpeded, complete, and full.” Tao te Ching (China, 3rd Century BCE) also speaks of the same capability of this part of the mind: “Without going outside his door, one understands (all that takes place) under the sky; without looking out from his window, one sees the Tao of Heaven. The farther that one goes out (from himself), the less he knows. Therefore the sages got their knowledge without traveling; gave their (right) names to things without seeing them; and accomplished their ends without any purpose of doing so.” It was this knowledge of the Reality that equipped Lucretius, the Roman philosopher-poet, (98-55 BCE) to talk about the atomic nature of the Universe long before the modern science did. In his poem De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of the Universe) he said:

“Globed from the atoms, falling slow or swift
I see the suns, I see the systems lift
Their forms; and even the systems and the suns
Shall go back slowly to the eternal drift”

The Universe and all beings in it are the products of the System of Life which some called the Truth. The System is not the product of our reasoning as it exists prior to our life. Though the World that belongs to the System must be sacred to those who speak of God it is not so as these faiths project their systems sacred. Christ called the Real World to which we are born the ‘Kingdom of God’; that was the Vedic view of life too. Eckhart, the German theologian (1260-1327) said: “The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a treasure which is hid in a field, saith Christ. This field is the soul- where in the treasure of the Kingdom of God lieth hidden. In the soul, therefore, are God and all the creatures blessed.” The main Upanishads (India) deal with relating ourselves with this World that belongs to the System; the source of Vedic knowledge was the same World. Usually this state is attained by delinking the mind from the sensory perceptions, the highest state of meditation. The realization of the knowledge that belongs to the System was known in ancient India as ‘sruthi’, elsewhere this is attributed to an angel.
Carl Gustav Jung, the father of Analytical Psychology, said: "The transcendent function does not proceed without aim and purpose, but leads to the revelation of the essential man. It is in the first place a purely natural process, which may in some cases pursue its course without the knowledge or assistance of the individual, and sometimes forcibly accomplish itself in the face of opposition. The meaning and purpose of the process is the realization, in all its aspects, of the personality originally hidden away in the embryonic germ-plasm; the production and unfolding of the original, potential wholeness.” (Two Essays on Analytical Psychology) Usually this regaining of the real mind comes as a reaction to the clouding of consciousness by the products of our reasoning/s.
For more Pure Reason

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I recognize nothing in Hedges' description of these atheists
Posted by: Malkavian on Mar 25, 2008 3:22 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I definitely doesn't see modern atheism advocating anything that deserves the term "salvation", but Hedges' rethorical seems all too transparant to me. Of course he wants to run the old "atheism is a form of religious belief exactly the same as Christianity". And so he does. Would that a journalist didn't resort to such tactics, but maybe it's meant to make it easier to swallow his vitriolic attacks on atheists as being "intolerant, chauvinistic and bigoted as that of religious fundamentalists" and Sam Harris's book (and presumably Harris himself considering the former quote) as "tedious, at its best, and often idiotic and racist".

I have come to believe that religious people, even such self-declared "moderates" as Hedges, are perhaps inately unable to appreciate the simple - and in fact tedios and utterly trivial - idea that it is by far in the interest of our civilized society to USE REASON instead of faith to decide what to do.

Indeed, Sam Harris takes issue with the moderates, and I'm not surprised this has infuriated a bunch of people since, statistically speaking, most people in the West tends towards moderate viewpoints.

At the core it is simple. As long as someone is willing to look at the world using reason it's possible to ... well ... reason with that person. When someone simply BELIEVES. PERIOD. Really absolutely believes (and as such _belief_ is the psychological state of accepting something as true in the absence of logic or evidence). Well, if you have ANY conflict with that person you may as well draw your sword and pray you plunge it into his or her heart first. Because once we stop talking, once we stop ideas from being expressed AND corrected in a universal, meaningful way there is only violence left.

As if that weren't enough, I can only shudder at the thought that many of these faith-based people are informed of their life's truths through books that often glorify hideos violence and preach the utter wrongness of everyone else who does not share the absolute truth they themselves believe in.

But oh my ... couldn't it all just boil down to economics? Yeah, that's the ticket. Couldn't they simply be murdering each other and oftentimes us because of pecuniary concerns?

Enter someone who knows eks-Jugoslavia.

Yet I cannot shake a thought. How come all those lines ALWAYS cut with surgical precision along the lines of religious beliefs? I've yet to see a nation where there are two groups of people divides along a line that looks like someone just flipped a coin and assigned Bob to the Ebs and John to the Ubs.

Sorry, but I'm just not convinced that a bit of a bad economy turns someone into a lunatic that flies planes into buildings or bombs abortions clinics. For someone to do the genocide thing it just takes something more.

As history shows theres been many economic crashes, yet many of them have not in the least been followed by this kind of murderous behavior.

Except maybe in one respect. We've seen crisis before. What often happens, as seen during various crisis in the USA, is an increase in racism. Specifically how the majority of WASP and other caucasians turn to hatred against gooks, niggers, spicks and whatever "cute" names racists are employing (and let's not forget people who have the wrong kind of sex). All in all just a cutesy little fallback on irrational belief and a complete disregard for the honest handling of evidence.

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Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrttttt.
Posted by: variscora on Mar 25, 2008 5:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry about that. I always pass gas after having homeopathic sex with God.

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Jacob
Posted by: Jacob on Mar 26, 2008 4:41 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Hedges represents a liberal seminary student from 1960-1970; unfortunately, he has never moved beyond those halcyon days. He is also too proud of his stint with the NY Times, which he mentions every time he gets the chance, as if that gives his special wisdom into god stuff and non-god stuff. He is anti-Israel, and I'd guess anti-Semitic, as the two tend to be related. He also lies when it suits his purpose.

He is most unhappy that people don't think he's as smart as Sam Harris and that his non-theology doesn't get as much public acclaim as does Sam's atheism.

He is not to be taken seriously.

Please read my post "I Don't Believe in Chris Hedges," on Contextual Criticism:

http://mythandhope.blogspot.com

Another, more substantial and measured article will be appearing soon, detailed Hedges' multiple confusions and his own dangerous smearing of people that out of nowhere became his opponents.

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» RE: Jacob Posted by: Dboy
following Hedges' logic...
Posted by: aalif ba ta tha on Mar 27, 2008 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...those who thought Saddam had no WMDs are just as ideologically blinded as those who thought he did. Both sides are equal, and both sides have zealots.

Makes sense, right? Of course not.

Now, replace WMDs with "those who believe in god" and there is Hedges' argument. Hedges ignores things like logic and reason, which tip the balance in the equation of whether or not there are WMDs and whether or not there is a god.

The burden of proof for god's existence lies with the theist. And I have never heard one good reason in my life why there is a god. I have been listening intently and with an open mind for years, and, my god, I haven't found a single reason.

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Sounds like Corporsatism...
Posted by: manderson on Mar 29, 2008 12:35 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Mr. Hedges is describing the philosophy of Corporatism in the remarks of the 'New Atheists'. Corporatism, as practiced, is amoral and sociopathic, and has no basis in any kind of spirituality whatsoever. Hitchens and Harris are another parlor trick in the Corporatist bag of dirty magic tricks to divide and conquer, denying any spirituality at all to humans, while advancing science and technology as the way to freedom...and of course unspoken, power and profit. And, yes, Hitler WAS a Catholic....a peculiarly devout one.

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Religion is empirically proveable as a detriment to rational human thought
Posted by: thekidde on Mar 29, 2008 1:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and social intercourse. Religions have caused more destruction, hatred (including the former Yugoslavia), murder, bloodshed and despicable acts of humans on each other than any other organized human endeavor. As Hedges freely admits, religion or religious "faith" doesn't imbue believers with anything special; except, of course,irrational, bigotted, and essentially insane belief in magical creatures with special powers who apparently torment humans in their lust for torture and mayhem and call for the horrendous end of all "infidels/apostates". Not a single religion I know of is based in any kind of reality.

Even those whose whole lives (forget the Falwells, Robertson, Osteen money grubbers and insane popes, imams and predatory priests) are given to "doing good" in the name of religion are nuts, if at least less bloodthirsty than the fundamentalist Jews, Christians and Muslims (okay Mormons too, etc.) who are certifiable in their bloody, nasty rituals and condemnations of unbelievers. Power and control anyone?

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freelance writer
Posted by: johnmsandoval on Mar 29, 2008 3:35 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As usual Chris Hedges is pissing into the wind like most religious fanatics. His writing is not confusing - it only exposes his arbitrariness and criticism of respectable atheists.
As it is even atheists do not "all agree" on everything but Chris Hedges goes on and on just batting at the wind. Seems he is just trying to confuse and insult all atheists.
OBSERVE;
I Refuse to be hammered down and insulted by his ravings - I found the truth and I found it all in the King James Bible.
Eclesiestes chap 10 verse 19 says; A feast is made for laughter, wine to make merry, but Money is the answer to all things.
Isaiah chap 44 verse 10 says; Who? hath formed a God, or molten a graven image (of a God) that is profitable for nothing.
Jonathan

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re live = re lig ion
Posted by: johnmsandoval on Mar 29, 2008 9:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Re live Ion = Re lig Ion

Words for those who have understanding and understand.

The Latin words, E Pluribus Unum stamped on USA Coins, means; “from the many the one” (from many Gods, the one) (Yahweh-God-Jehovah) the Jewish God.
The Eye of the “Ion” is the eye of God, printed on the peak of the pyramid, portrayed on the American Dollar. At the bottom of the pyramid it reads “Novus Ordo Seclorum” which means – “The New World Order.” The designs mean; One World, One Ruler, One Religion, There will be no States – the world will be divided into Regions (in the US divided by six Regions. ) One Word of Law with One Currency, for the entire World “The New World Order.” It is amazing, how many Presidents and Prime Ministers aspire, to promote the coming of The New World Order.
George W Bush declared that he believes in The New World Order.
The"Federal Reserve Board" in America, is a private non government institution. They are not' a duly elected government body of Seven Governors and a Chairman. They have no "legal or moral right" to pass judicial judgment on American taxpayers, with their own private Attorney General and collect a “Prime rate" of interest, for the use of our own "Sovereign Currency."
“It is done by constitutional subterfuge.”
They operate in usurpation of "separation of church & State." The non govt. Federal Reserve Board increases "The Treasures of Zion" with out investing a single, solitary penny, of their own.

As/per Judaism! The seven stars of (the constellation "Orion") are the spirits of the "Seven churches" and the "Seven Governors" of the "Federal Reserve Board." ref. Rev chap 1 verse 20
Amos chapter 5 verse 8 says; The Seven stars of Orion, also named "Betelgeuse." Jews. ref. all the churches named Bethel. Also the name Elizabeth – Eli – Tza – Beth. (Betelgeuse) Orion.
Revelation chapter 1 verse 20 says; The Seven stars (of Orion) are the angels of "The Seven Churches."
The Seven churches are listed in ‑ Revelations chapter 1 verse 11 ‑ Ephesus, and Smyrna the First, and Pergamus, and Thyatira, and Sardis, and Philadelphia, and Ladocea. Smyrna the First, such as the First Baptist Church or the First Methodist Church or the First Presbyterian Church. Such as the First National Bank or the First State Bank, or the First anything Bank because churches and banks are about prosperity, property and money!
Prosperity, Health & Money are the most important things in life.
Observe; Seven stars. Seven churches, Seven Governors of, the “Federal Reserve Board.”
Ancients believed! that Spirits of Pharaohs and Kings, became Stars, when they died.
So it was easy and practical to organize and begin, the Judaic Religion, the Cosmic Yahweh-God-Jehovah, and the Christian religion.
[ The Origin of catch 22 ]
St. John (Jesus Christ's blood brother) wrote the book of Revelations. Jesus, Christ was not his real name! In Revelations chapter 22 verse 16 ‑ Jesus says; I Jesus have sent my Angel to testify these things unto you in the churches; I am the root of David, the bright, the Morning Star.
These words are Certified in the Holy Bible, found by "Theosophy" ‑ deep studies, of religions.
“The Morning star” is not Jesus, and it is not a star at all, it is the planet “Venus” visible to the naked eye in late Summer and Fall - appears on the Horizon, a few minutes before sunrise. (5 or 6 AM)
Our modern Betelgeuse Jews ‑ charge American citizens "prime rate interest" for the use of our own sovereign currency ‑ without investing any money, of their own.
As per the US Constitution, no one can authorize and/or create US Currency ‑ only the US Congress. As per the constitution.

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part 2 re live ion = religion