COMMENTS: 186
It's Time to Kick Jesus Out of Politics
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Every day we withhold our judgment until the amens are about to begin.
In the Senate last week it was, "... in the name of the great physician who came with healing in his hand."
OK, that's kind of creative.
And then, coming from the House side, "We do all these things in Jesus' name ..." Do we really?
The vast majority in the Idaho Legislature and in legislative bodies across the country remain vocal about their belief in prayer. But the tradition of legislative prayer, while long and well-documented, is one that the Constitution merely "tolerates."
A 1983 U.S. Supreme Court decision upheld legislative prayer in Nebraska saying, "To invoke divine guidance on a public body entrusted with making the laws is not, in these circumstances, a violation of the Establishment Clause; it is simply a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country."
According to those same, er, activist justices, it is fine to spend taxpayer money on two Christian pastors so that they may tend to their legislative flock with a daily public display of Jesus affection. Because that's what's always been done.
Rep. Sue Chew, a Boise Democrat, is a Buddhist who relies on prayer to get through her days. Like one day last week when a simple Medicaid bill was killed for narrow ideological -- perhaps religiously motivated -- reasons.
Chew says it is difficult for her to sit through the House's exclusively Christian prayers, but she is reluctant to say anything. She believes that House chaplain Rev. Tom Dougherty means well.
"I see his smiling, joyful face, and I don't know that he'll get what I have to say," Chew said.
He won't. We checked.
Dougherty, in his first year as House chaplain, is a pastor at Cloverdale Church of God in Boise.
"They don't have to listen," Dougherty said when asked if he has any reservations about offering Christian prayers to a public audience that includes non-Christians.
At least two senators are not as forgiving as Chew. Elliot Werk, a Boise Democrat and Chuck Coiner, a Twin Falls Republican have had a word with Senate Chaplain David Goebel in the past. They asked him to remember his audience is not uniform in belief.
"I kind of appreciate it as long as it's done in a respectful manner to people of all faiths or of no faith," said Coiner, an Episcopalian by marriage.
Coiner said that the daily invocation -- the second order of business in both the House and Senate -- is a time to think of colleagues in distress, to remember manners, to slow down.
"I try to use word pictures and metaphors that I can connect with as a Christian but also are open for other people," says Goebel.
Hence the great physician in the sky. Still, Goebel considers his posting at the Annex to be part of his ministry.
"It's a very different kind of ministry than being a pastor in a local church," Goebel said. "I'm used to being very clear and direct about who I am, what I stand for, where I'm coming from."
Many lawmakers are just as clear and direct in their faith.
"I think it is a wonderful idea to make eternal supplication on behalf of the people of the state of Idaho and the Legislature every single day," said Sen. Bart Davis.
Some lawmakers skip the prayer session, scooting into their seats in time to speechify and vote. Some adjust the angle of their laptop screens so they can read email while everyone tucks chin to chest in a show of spineless conformity.
We stand tall in the press gallery, head unbowed, lips unmoving, emotions ping ponging between agnostic contempt and a desire to rip off our shirt, revealing a thick, imagined chest-sized Star of David tattoo.
Dear Idaho, we heathens too are participating in the political process.
The public encouragement of religion, no matter how vague or poetic, is troubling to civil libertarians like Jack Van Valkenburgh, head of the American Civil Liberties Union of Idaho.
"Anytime the government is promoting a religion it's undermining the freedom of religion in my view," Van Valkenburg said. "And to encourage a particular religion or a particular set of religions is particularly offensive."
The 1983 Supreme Court case, Marsh v. Chambers, rested on the fact that within three days of appointing a committee to hire congressional chaplains in 1789, the First Congress approved the Bill of Rights, including the Establishment clause.
But in carving out a First Amendment exception for legislative bodies, the justices failed to apply the Lemon test, the method that all courts use to determine church-state violations. It is taught in most high school government classes.
"I have no doubt that, if any group of law students were asked to apply the principles of Lemon to the question of legislative prayer, they would nearly unanimously find the practice to be unconstitutional," wrote Justice William Brennan in his dissent to the Marsh ruling. Three justices dissented.
Every legislature in the union does prayer in one form or another, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Most states pay their chaplains.
Ben Franklin suggested prayer at the Constitutional Convention. The U.S. Congress hires chaplains and pays them like ad execs.
Sen. Davis says that everyone at the Annex is an adult and can make up their own mind about the prayers offered. But many impressionable young pages wander the halls, open the doors for Davis and use the public wi-fi to download movies and music. Their political initiation is going to be skewed by this daily religious indoctrination.
Davis offers them a false choice. All Idahoans go to the halls of government to seek redress. Most say they embrace god. Many really do. Some tolerate it.
Who knows how many stay away because their views are excluded every morning during the second order of business?
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: factbased on Mar 19, 2008 12:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The act of prayer is, to all available evidence, entirely inconsequential. Unfortunately, being seen to pray may be necessary to win over certain constituencies.
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» it's politics, not religion
Posted by: Lector
» The lousy laws show that no one there is listening, anyhow.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Simple answers to simple questions
Posted by: Saitia
» RE: Simple answers to simple questions
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: paulaH on Mar 19, 2008 4:02 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, just who banished "merry Christmas" anyway?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Yes, just who banished "merry Christmas" anyway?
Posted by: fork
» Obviously you don't live in West-by-god-Virginia
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Obviously you don't live in West-by-god-Virginia
Posted by: fork
» Really! Such nonsense!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: maribelle on Mar 19, 2008 6:14 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hetware you said a mouthful. Have you read any John Shelby Spong, like "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" and "WHy Christianity Much Change, or Die". He was almost brought up on heresy charges twice. Quite a thinker and writer.
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Posted by: Intellect on Mar 20, 2008 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What they do not have is the right to use public buildings to erect religious monuments or a Decalogue or to use the government or public assets to assist them in proselyzation.
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» RE: I know the feeling
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: emmas on Mar 20, 2008 6:18 AM
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Posted by: Moonray on Mar 19, 2008 1:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is inexcusable that Christians or others in America would inject their religious beliefs into government meetings and even carve religious statements onto public buildings. They even have a religious slogan on our money.
Adding injury to insult, the religious clique even gives itself huge exemptions from all taxes -- in effect stealing public tax money to subsidize their religious operations!
Americans need to stand up and put a stop to this blatant violation of the Constitution. Vote against all Republicans and anyone else who would tolerate this ongoing obscenity. Enough is enough!
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» RE: I don't believe in Santa Clause or al Qaeda
Posted by: emmas
» Just what constitutes "religion"
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 19, 2008 2:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christians trying to interject their faith into politics are not even following the basic tenants of their own faith.
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» RE: Get Faith Out of Politics & Politics Out of Faith
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Get Faith Out of Politics & Politics Out of Faith
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: talkville on Mar 19, 2008 3:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Institutions of government are for carrying on the affairs and addressing and solving the problems of THIS real and actual society just as it currently is. Take religious dogmas and beliefs out of these settings and buildings; that's why different people of different beliefs and ways of living have the right to build and erect their own buildings and institutions and to gather there to carry on their ways.
There's always something problematic about those who show too much of an inclination to make sure that others SEE them worshiping-- it always smells a bit too much of hypocrisy. Just what is motivating them to legislate -- hard to tell.
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» RE: My granddaddy used to say
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: My granddaddy used to say
Posted by: talkville
» RE: My granddaddy used to say
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Mar 19, 2008 4:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
stupid christians! prayer is private!
oh, dear lord, protect me from thy followers!
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» Yes, thank you! Jesus warned against public prayer.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: pfft! scribes, pharasees: hypocrites!
Posted by: wal55
» Crossing The Line And Back Again
Posted by: Doubting Thomas
» RE: Crossing The Line And Back Again
Posted by: KyGentleman
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Posted by: rcase on Mar 19, 2008 4:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE Most of us are Christian. This has been recognized from day one in the founding of America.
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: eric555
» Did you read what Jesus said about it?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: wal55
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: We are a religious people
Posted by: Suz
» RE: We are a religious people
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: What are they praying for? To win?
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: kryolux
» EmcinoM...
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Sorry... EncinoM, not EmcinoM... my bad
Posted by: Quannah
» You think We Are a Religious People..?
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
» That sums up religious people perfectly!
Posted by: Cathyc
» People Like To THINK They are Religious
Posted by: NoPCZone
» So we re free...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Bzzzt. Wrong.
Posted by: factbased
» RE: WAKE UP TO WHAT THE TOP 1% OF THE I.Q. CHART HAVE FOUND OUT.
Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: snape
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Posted by: jmmartin on Mar 19, 2008 5:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just don't expect the Bush-packed Supremes on the current court to do anything to reverse the its precedent. The current majority would like to reverse Roe v. Wade, but not legislative prayer. You've got that arch mackerelsnap crypto-theofascist Antonin Scalia sucking up to Roman authority; his stooge, the porno-loving African-American hypocrite who always votes as Scalia does, being too slow-witted to do otherwise, and Roberts, Scalito, and Kennedy (who's very likely Catholic as well) pitched against associates who probably concede the issue thinking it's not all that important, so why make a fuss?
They'll never see the harm done by legislative prayer.
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» RE: What Would Zoroaster Do? Or Cernunnos, for that Matter?
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: What Would Zoroaster Do? Or Cernunnos, for that Matter?
Posted by: GrannyBgood
» RE: What Would Zoroaster Do? Or Cernunnos, for that Matter?
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: bitsfick on Mar 19, 2008 5:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seneca the younger, 4bc-65ad
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» RE: Faith is
Posted by: wal55
» RE: Faith is - what Despots need to rule the masses!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Faith is not exclusively xtian
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: rewassenich on Mar 19, 2008 5:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Well....
Posted by: aussidawg
» Well....
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Kick Jesus out of politics
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: bitsfick on Mar 19, 2008 5:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hence the great physician in the sky.
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: Hence the great physician in the sky.
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: Kcanadensis on Mar 19, 2008 5:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Wow
Posted by: rhinojos
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Posted by: GrannyBgood on Mar 19, 2008 5:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only ONE right answer.
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» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: Liberty G
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: mainspark
» morality is public;
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: morality is public;
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: Suz
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: purereason on Mar 19, 2008 6:24 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Christ vs Christianity
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: Doubting Thomas on Mar 19, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Vote Nader"
I'm an atheist, and I approve this message.
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» RE: eligious Oppression????
Posted by: saltillosuzy
» RE: eligious Oppression????
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: modeler on Mar 19, 2008 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: peacemama on Mar 19, 2008 7:07 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: wal55
» Ahhh....
Posted by: Domokun
» RE: Ahhh....
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: purereason
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Legislative prayer = arrogance
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: bittershaman
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: bwj8
» Welcome to the USA
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: Intellect
» And I get tired of the majority acting like they are discriminated against
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Mar 19, 2008 7:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"oh, dear lord, protect me from thy followers!"
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» RE: re: rcase & wal55
Posted by: wal55
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Posted by: war_on_tara on Mar 19, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Jesus only cares about football!
Posted by: mainspark
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Posted by: EncinoM on Mar 19, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Author leave out the Lemon Test, here it is
The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
The problem is the Lemon test goes to funding and such legislation, a apply this test to broadly and Amry Chaplins are unconsitutional, as well as "In God We Trust" on money.
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» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: Doubting Thomas
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: tap17x on Mar 19, 2008 9:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Prayer is the stupidest possible act.........
Posted by: fringedweller
» RE: Prayer is the stupidest possible act.........
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Prayer is the stupidest possible act.........
Posted by: Saitia
» Prayer is a self-serving act spoken to a non-existent magical being.
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 19, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or something like that...
See what I mean..?
I'm with Jesus..!
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» RE: Jesus Said:
Posted by: wal55
» RE: Jesus Said:
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: sawdust on Mar 19, 2008 10:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hadashito on Mar 19, 2008 11:10 AM
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» RE: All Fundamentalism is Evil...!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
» RE: eject Religious Fundamentalists and Begin to Change
Posted by: arthurread
» RE: eject Religious Fundamentalists and Begin to Change
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: leland61 on Mar 19, 2008 11:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The religious reich is wrong. There is nothing they can do about government. It will always reflect the corruption of its ultimate master, the devil.
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» RE: All civil government is the Devil's workshop. Why pray about it?
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: All civil government is the Devil's workshop. Why pray about it?
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: willymack on Mar 19, 2008 11:58 AM
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Posted by: Afban on Mar 19, 2008 1:30 PM
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said Coiner, an Episcopalian by marriage.
was the most intriguing bit of this whole post for me. I had no idea that it was possible to become an Episcopalian by marriage. I wonder if our priest's Jewish husband realizes he's one of us now! (Bwahahahaha!)
Seriously, though. Prayer is a private act and should be kept that way. I do not understand how any Christian could find it acceptable to force non-Christians to sit through our prayers.
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» Episcopalian by marriage?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
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Posted by: rsmohio on Mar 19, 2008 2:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» What about Israel?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 19, 2008 2:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus was the first to announce the separation of Church and State when he said:
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's..!"
Any so called Preacher that tells you or argues different is a blaspheming heretic and going directly against what Jesus taught..
It's a shame many on the left are so loath to dare quote or use those words Jesus left us...
If they did it would be the strongest and often the last word on this stupid argument..
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Posted by: The Big Raven on Mar 19, 2008 3:31 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Is he on the dem or re slate?
Posted by: EJ
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Posted by: Animal on Mar 19, 2008 4:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: If Lawmakers Really Want To Pray....
Posted by: jmoore
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Posted by: dannrusso on Mar 19, 2008 4:10 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the messengers, however, need a little work
:-)
peace,
Dann
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Posted by: BeyondBeliefs on Mar 19, 2008 5:34 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The flat earth barbarians of the Roman Empire spent 560 years trying to translate into Latin, make sense out of, the various texts they stole during their conquests... well...just those books they did not chose to burn.
Today, who would sacrifice TRUTH (a half Billion Years of Creation ) consume the earth to build killing machines and attack Creation in order to defend, and ENFORCE, the Fables fabricated by the Rulers of Roman Empire to control their army of SLAVES ?
Words were NEVER the Truth.
Only Life is Truth.
The patriots to the recently woven flags of INVISIBLE BORDERS, and the obedient worshipers of these recently invented magic ghosts of eternal heavens and eternal hells, would terminate life in the real world in order to enforce their words on the innocent children of other lands.
All Humans want their freedom, not ours.
Our words are no better than their words.
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» Beyond Beliefs: Heavy stuff, but absolutely true, my friend!
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: BlueKansas on Mar 19, 2008 5:38 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The long-term solution is education. The short-term solution is vigorous enforcement of the 1st Amendment.
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Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Mar 19, 2008 6:36 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There should be no prayer on any government facility, in any legislature, any military installation. Ideally, you shouldn't even know the religion of the guy you're standing next to if you are in the military or are an elected official. None of that is supposed to matter in America. Let's try a little of that religious freedom people are so fond of, and let our secular government be truly secular. Get your "god" off my money, my federal buildings, my pledge of allegiance. Yes, I said "mine" because I'm an American, too, no matter what my religion happens to be. All those laws and all those freedoms include me, too, and there's no way I'm going to feel "included" when I'm forced to endure the invocation of a destructive desert war deity before I conduct public business. Thanks.
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Mar 19, 2008 6:49 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Thanks
Posted by: luckypuck
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Mar 19, 2008 6:50 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on Mar 19, 2008 7:43 PM
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Posted by: aussidawg on Mar 19, 2008 7:54 PM
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» RE: Christians make easy targets for those seeking power.
Posted by: Robert Halfhill
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Posted by: adp3d on Mar 19, 2008 8:26 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Wow...
Posted by: EJ
» RE: Wow...
Posted by: snowdude38
» RE: Wow...Not Christo!
Posted by: Jayzer
» How about "religiofascist". ALL religions are bigoted, empirically nonsensical and
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: snowdude38 on Mar 19, 2008 10:10 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The elitist rich who felt that the peasants were only meant to be slaves.
Jesus treated all with respect and dignity, even those who thought Jesus to be thier enemy.
That's what being a progressive means,
looking forward, not back.
Thinking not reacting with violence or
abusive behavior.
Jesus was the first progressive and
I choose to follow his path.
The coservative right and the neo-cons can now take there place in hell, where they belong. Next to thier Lord, SATAN...
Goodnight W... Goodnight Dick...
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» RE: What would Jesus Do?
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: luckypuck on Mar 19, 2008 11:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Contrary to some of the posters above, more comfortable stating their wishful thinking than the facts, there weren’t ANY invocations at ANY of the meetings of the first congress or the second or third. I’ve looked for information when the first ones began, but thus far have been unsuccessful. I’d appreciate it if someone has that information and would post it here.
Also, for the remainder of the century of our founding, Christian preachers published page after page of sermons, pamphlets and newspaper essays excoriating the Constitutional Conveners for their successful efforts to remove all references to God. Clearly the founders knew what they were doing.
As far as “In God We Trust” on our money as a sign that this is a Christian nation, I beg to differ. It's a sign that our politicians are corrupt in that they cave in to clearly unconstitutional efforts to establish Christianity as a state religion in order to garner votes from influential (read “monied”) special interest groups. The first attempt to put that EX-clusive motto on money came from a cabal of Christian businessmen (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) who, in 1861 “influenced” a lame-duck congress to make the change from the original "E Pluribus Unum". They also wanted to change the Preamble to the Constitution to read,
"We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all
authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the Ruler among the nations, His revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government..."
Doesn't that establishment crap make you cringe? The best that could be said about the congress that passed this proposal, is that they might have been so terrorized by the cabal’s Preamble change, they caved on the motto issue. Still, that was at the expense of what is right and good for the country as a whole.
If there are those who still insist that Christians are not trying to establish a state religion, let them accept a proposal to print “In Allah We Trust.” Let them put up on government buildings, “In the Great Spirit We Trust.” How about, “We Don’t Trust Any God.”
I have some support material on this same topic which was posted on Alternet several months ago. Unfortunately, I neglected to mark the original author. If it was you, I apologize for not being as organized as usual, but your stuff is too good not to repost it.
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?"- James Madison
“I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest morality that has ever been taught” “. . . but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invested by priestcraft and established by kingcraft, constituting a conspiracy of church and state against the civil and religious liberties of mankind.” -Thomas Jefferson.
Lastly, ”I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of ‘conservatism.’"
-Senator Barry Goldwater
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» RE: There are none so blind as those who refuse to see
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: There are none so blind as those who refuse to see
Posted by: luckypuck
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Posted by: cherylsass123 on Mar 20, 2008 3:47 AM
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Posted by: Intellect on Mar 20, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The establishment of the chaplainship in Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights as well as of Constitutional principles.
The danger of silent accumulations and encroachments by ecclesiastical bodies has not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S.”-- James Madison, statement when being outvoted in the bill to establish the office of Congressional Chaplains, from Madison's "Detached Memoranda"
“Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments, the real power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the constituents.”-- James Madison, letter to Thomas Jefferson, October 17, 1788
“I observe with particular pleasure the view you have taken of the immunity of religion from civil jurisdiction, in every case where it does not trespass on private rights or the public peace. This has always been a favorite principal with me; and it was not with my approbation that the deviation from it took place in congress, when they appointed chaplains, to be paid from the national treasury. It would have been a much better proof to their constituents of their pious feeling if the members had contributed for the purpose a pittance from their own pockets. As the precedent is not likely to be rescinded, the best that can now be done maybe to apply to the constitution the maxim of the law, de minimis non currant”-- James Madison, being outvoted in the bill to establish the office of Congressional Chaplain, Madison's Writings, Vol. 3, p. 274
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» RE: James Madison - The father of our Constitution
Posted by: luckypuck
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Posted by: BeyondBeliefs on Mar 20, 2008 3:02 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we are to be judged by our association with the preachers of ancient barbaric flat earth religious doctrines, then we will never escape the ignorance of our barbaric past.
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Posted by: binkey on Mar 20, 2008 3:09 PM
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Get over it- most of don't believe in god, and the christians have been so rude to the rest of us (by trying to take over our government, or dictate who we can marry, for example)that we are no longer hiding our complete disbelief in their poorly conceived collection of fairy tales out of politeness.
At this point in history, when I hear someone publicly professing their faith, I seriously wonder what their secret perversion is. The psychological complexities of participating in such "faith" are such that, if one didn't have a strong need to avoid the truth, one would have no need for such a convoluted view of reality.
If this seems disrespectful, I can only say that it pales in comparison to the disrespect that these christians have been dishing out in large steaming helpings to the civil society that I support, and the constitution upon which it rests.
And I am so tired of the assault on the constitution. The history of this country is full separation of church and state. This was introduced from the very beginning FOR THE PROTECTION OF CHRISTIANS.
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» RE: false claim
Posted by: drbill
» RE: false claim
Posted by: EJ
» RE: false claim
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: Beepath on Mar 21, 2008 3:49 AM
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Posted by: Kuressaare on Mar 23, 2008 7:36 AM
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But let me revert here, this idea of a religious people and those Chirstian: you know how insulting you are? I find your religion unacceptable, the ingenuiy of execution varieties in order to avoid the shedding of blood. Honestly, do explore Mithraism, that's Zorastianism's predecessor (maybe), bull's blood, and one does not mean Egri Bikavér, the Hungarian wine
And cheers too, next time around one could be born to Shinto parents, who are much in tune with the natural world, despite the spurious claims in the allied world after the war. If it takes no more than being born to parents of a certain religion in order to become one of that religion, and I am damned if I can see any other rationale for what most of us wind up with, then I'll look forward to another try for you, but I am happy being left out, so that is a great moderator, yes?
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Posted by: theblaast on Mar 24, 2008 5:29 PM
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Posted by: factbased on Mar 19, 2008 12:48 AM
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The act of prayer is, to all available evidence, entirely inconsequential. Unfortunately, being seen to pray may be necessary to win over certain constituencies.
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» it's politics, not religion
Posted by: Lector
» The lousy laws show that no one there is listening, anyhow.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Simple answers to simple questions
Posted by: Saitia
» RE: Simple answers to simple questions
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: paulaH on Mar 19, 2008 4:02 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, just who banished "merry Christmas" anyway?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Yes, just who banished "merry Christmas" anyway?
Posted by: fork
» Obviously you don't live in West-by-god-Virginia
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Obviously you don't live in West-by-god-Virginia
Posted by: fork
» Really! Such nonsense!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: maribelle on Mar 19, 2008 6:14 PM
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Hetware you said a mouthful. Have you read any John Shelby Spong, like "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" and "WHy Christianity Much Change, or Die". He was almost brought up on heresy charges twice. Quite a thinker and writer.
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Posted by: Intellect on Mar 20, 2008 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What they do not have is the right to use public buildings to erect religious monuments or a Decalogue or to use the government or public assets to assist them in proselyzation.
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» RE: I know the feeling
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: emmas on Mar 20, 2008 6:18 AM
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Posted by: Moonray on Mar 19, 2008 1:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is inexcusable that Christians or others in America would inject their religious beliefs into government meetings and even carve religious statements onto public buildings. They even have a religious slogan on our money.
Adding injury to insult, the religious clique even gives itself huge exemptions from all taxes -- in effect stealing public tax money to subsidize their religious operations!
Americans need to stand up and put a stop to this blatant violation of the Constitution. Vote against all Republicans and anyone else who would tolerate this ongoing obscenity. Enough is enough!
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» RE: I don't believe in Santa Clause or al Qaeda
Posted by: emmas
» Just what constitutes "religion"
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 19, 2008 2:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christians trying to interject their faith into politics are not even following the basic tenants of their own faith.
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» RE: Get Faith Out of Politics & Politics Out of Faith
Posted by: paulaH
» RE: Get Faith Out of Politics & Politics Out of Faith
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: talkville on Mar 19, 2008 3:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Institutions of government are for carrying on the affairs and addressing and solving the problems of THIS real and actual society just as it currently is. Take religious dogmas and beliefs out of these settings and buildings; that's why different people of different beliefs and ways of living have the right to build and erect their own buildings and institutions and to gather there to carry on their ways.
There's always something problematic about those who show too much of an inclination to make sure that others SEE them worshiping-- it always smells a bit too much of hypocrisy. Just what is motivating them to legislate -- hard to tell.
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» RE: My granddaddy used to say
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: My granddaddy used to say
Posted by: talkville
» RE: My granddaddy used to say
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Mar 19, 2008 4:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
stupid christians! prayer is private!
oh, dear lord, protect me from thy followers!
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» Yes, thank you! Jesus warned against public prayer.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: pfft! scribes, pharasees: hypocrites!
Posted by: wal55
» Crossing The Line And Back Again
Posted by: Doubting Thomas
» RE: Crossing The Line And Back Again
Posted by: KyGentleman
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Posted by: rcase on Mar 19, 2008 4:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE Most of us are Christian. This has been recognized from day one in the founding of America.
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: eric555
» Did you read what Jesus said about it?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: wal55
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: We are a religious people
Posted by: Suz
» RE: We are a religious people
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: What are they praying for? To win?
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: kryolux
» EmcinoM...
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Sorry... EncinoM, not EmcinoM... my bad
Posted by: Quannah
» You think We Are a Religious People..?
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
» That sums up religious people perfectly!
Posted by: Cathyc
» People Like To THINK They are Religious
Posted by: NoPCZone
» So we re free...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Bzzzt. Wrong.
Posted by: factbased
» RE: WAKE UP TO WHAT THE TOP 1% OF THE I.Q. CHART HAVE FOUND OUT.
Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: We Are a Religious People
Posted by: snape
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Posted by: jmmartin on Mar 19, 2008 5:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just don't expect the Bush-packed Supremes on the current court to do anything to reverse the its precedent. The current majority would like to reverse Roe v. Wade, but not legislative prayer. You've got that arch mackerelsnap crypto-theofascist Antonin Scalia sucking up to Roman authority; his stooge, the porno-loving African-American hypocrite who always votes as Scalia does, being too slow-witted to do otherwise, and Roberts, Scalito, and Kennedy (who's very likely Catholic as well) pitched against associates who probably concede the issue thinking it's not all that important, so why make a fuss?
They'll never see the harm done by legislative prayer.
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» RE: What Would Zoroaster Do? Or Cernunnos, for that Matter?
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: What Would Zoroaster Do? Or Cernunnos, for that Matter?
Posted by: GrannyBgood
» RE: What Would Zoroaster Do? Or Cernunnos, for that Matter?
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: bitsfick on Mar 19, 2008 5:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seneca the younger, 4bc-65ad
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» RE: Faith is
Posted by: wal55
» RE: Faith is - what Despots need to rule the masses!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Faith is not exclusively xtian
Posted by: WyrdSister
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Posted by: rewassenich on Mar 19, 2008 5:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Well....
Posted by: aussidawg
» Well....
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Kick Jesus out of politics
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: bitsfick on Mar 19, 2008 5:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hence the great physician in the sky.
Posted by: Jayzer
» RE: Hence the great physician in the sky.
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: Kcanadensis on Mar 19, 2008 5:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Wow
Posted by: rhinojos
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Posted by: GrannyBgood on Mar 19, 2008 5:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only ONE right answer.
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» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: Liberty G
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: mainspark
» morality is public;
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: morality is public;
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: Suz
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Who Would Jesus Bomb? !
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: purereason on Mar 19, 2008 6:24 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Christ vs Christianity
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: Doubting Thomas on Mar 19, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Vote Nader"
I'm an atheist, and I approve this message.
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» RE: eligious Oppression????
Posted by: saltillosuzy
» RE: eligious Oppression????
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: modeler on Mar 19, 2008 7:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: peacemama on Mar 19, 2008 7:07 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: wal55
» Ahhh....
Posted by: Domokun
» RE: Ahhh....
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: purereason
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Legislative prayer = arrogance
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: bittershaman
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: bwj8
» Welcome to the USA
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Legislative prayer
Posted by: Intellect
» And I get tired of the majority acting like they are discriminated against
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Mar 19, 2008 7:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"oh, dear lord, protect me from thy followers!"
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» RE: re: rcase & wal55
Posted by: wal55
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Posted by: war_on_tara on Mar 19, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Jesus only cares about football!
Posted by: mainspark
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Posted by: EncinoM on Mar 19, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Author leave out the Lemon Test, here it is
The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
The problem is the Lemon test goes to funding and such legislation, a apply this test to broadly and Amry Chaplins are unconsitutional, as well as "In God We Trust" on money.
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» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: Doubting Thomas
» RE: This is a non-issue to get Atheist's panties in a bunch
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: tap17x on Mar 19, 2008 9:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Prayer is the stupidest possible act.........
Posted by: fringedweller
» RE: Prayer is the stupidest possible act.........
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Prayer is the stupidest possible act.........
Posted by: Saitia
» Prayer is a self-serving act spoken to a non-existent magical being.
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 19, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or something like that...
See what I mean..?
I'm with Jesus..!
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» RE: Jesus Said:
Posted by: wal55
» RE: Jesus Said:
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: sawdust on Mar 19, 2008 10:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: hadashito on Mar 19, 2008 11:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: All Fundamentalism is Evil...!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
» RE: eject Religious Fundamentalists and Begin to Change
Posted by: arthurread
» RE: eject Religious Fundamentalists and Begin to Change
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: leland61 on Mar 19, 2008 11:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The religious reich is wrong. There is nothing they can do about government. It will always reflect the corruption of its ultimate master, the devil.
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» RE: All civil government is the Devil's workshop. Why pray about it?
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: All civil government is the Devil's workshop. Why pray about it?
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: willymack on Mar 19, 2008 11:58 AM
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Posted by: Afban on Mar 19, 2008 1:30 PM
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said Coiner, an Episcopalian by marriage.
was the most intriguing bit of this whole post for me. I had no idea that it was possible to become an Episcopalian by marriage. I wonder if our priest's Jewish husband realizes he's one of us now! (Bwahahahaha!)
Seriously, though. Prayer is a private act and should be kept that way. I do not understand how any Christian could find it acceptable to force non-Christians to sit through our prayers.
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» Episcopalian by marriage?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
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Posted by: rsmohio on Mar 19, 2008 2:17 PM
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» What about Israel?
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Mar 19, 2008 2:34 PM
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Jesus was the first to announce the separation of Church and State when he said:
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's..!"
Any so called Preacher that tells you or argues different is a blaspheming heretic and going directly against what Jesus taught..
It's a shame many on the left are so loath to dare quote or use those words Jesus left us...
If they did it would be the strongest and often the last word on this stupid argument..
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Posted by: The Big Raven on Mar 19, 2008 3:31 PM
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» RE: Is he on the dem or re slate?
Posted by: EJ
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Posted by: Animal on Mar 19, 2008 4:02 PM
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» RE: If Lawmakers Really Want To Pray....
Posted by: jmoore
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Posted by: dannrusso on Mar 19, 2008 4:10 PM
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the messengers, however, need a little work
:-)
peace,
Dann
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Posted by: BeyondBeliefs on Mar 19, 2008 5:34 PM
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The flat earth barbarians of the Roman Empire spent 560 years trying to translate into Latin, make sense out of, the various texts they stole during their conquests... well...just those books they did not chose to burn.
Today, who would sacrifice TRUTH (a half Billion Years of Creation ) consume the earth to build killing machines and attack Creation in order to defend, and ENFORCE, the Fables fabricated by the Rulers of Roman Empire to control their army of SLAVES ?
Words were NEVER the Truth.
Only Life is Truth.
The patriots to the recently woven flags of INVISIBLE BORDERS, and the obedient worshipers of these recently invented magic ghosts of eternal heavens and eternal hells, would terminate life in the real world in order to enforce their words on the innocent children of other lands.
All Humans want their freedom, not ours.
Our words are no better than their words.
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» Beyond Beliefs: Heavy stuff, but absolutely true, my friend!
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: BlueKansas on Mar 19, 2008 5:38 PM
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The long-term solution is education. The short-term solution is vigorous enforcement of the 1st Amendment.
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Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Mar 19, 2008 6:36 PM
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There should be no prayer on any government facility, in any legislature, any military installation. Ideally, you shouldn't even know the religion of the guy you're standing next to if you are in the military or are an elected official. None of that is supposed to matter in America. Let's try a little of that religious freedom people are so fond of, and let our secular government be truly secular. Get your "god" off my money, my federal buildings, my pledge of allegiance. Yes, I said "mine" because I'm an American, too, no matter what my religion happens to be. All those laws and all those freedoms include me, too, and there's no way I'm going to feel "included" when I'm forced to endure the invocation of a destructive desert war deity before I conduct public business. Thanks.
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Mar 19, 2008 6:49 PM
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» Thanks
Posted by: luckypuck
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Mar 19, 2008 6:50 PM
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Posted by: mindtrvlr on Mar 19, 2008 7:43 PM
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Posted by: aussidawg on Mar 19, 2008 7:54 PM
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» RE: Christians make easy targets for those seeking power.
Posted by: Robert Halfhill
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Posted by: adp3d on Mar 19, 2008 8:26 PM
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» RE: Wow...
Posted by: EJ
» RE: Wow...
Posted by: snowdude38
» RE: Wow...Not Christo!
Posted by: Jayzer
» How about "religiofascist". ALL religions are bigoted, empirically nonsensical and
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: snowdude38 on Mar 19, 2008 10:10 PM
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The elitist rich who felt that the peasants were only meant to be slaves.
Jesus treated all with respect and dignity, even those who thought Jesus to be thier enemy.
That's what being a progressive means,
looking forward, not back.
Thinking not reacting with violence or
abusive behavior.
Jesus was the first progressive and
I choose to follow his path.
The coservative right and the neo-cons can now take there place in hell, where they belong. Next to thier Lord, SATAN...
Goodnight W... Goodnight Dick...
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» RE: What would Jesus Do?
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: luckypuck on Mar 19, 2008 11:53 PM
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Contrary to some of the posters above, more comfortable stating their wishful thinking than the facts, there weren’t ANY invocations at ANY of the meetings of the first congress or the second or third. I’ve looked for information when the first ones began, but thus far have been unsuccessful. I’d appreciate it if someone has that information and would post it here.
Also, for the remainder of the century of our founding, Christian preachers published page after page of sermons, pamphlets and newspaper essays excoriating the Constitutional Conveners for their successful efforts to remove all references to God. Clearly the founders knew what they were doing.
As far as “In God We Trust” on our money as a sign that this is a Christian nation, I beg to differ. It's a sign that our politicians are corrupt in that they cave in to clearly unconstitutional efforts to establish Christianity as a state religion in order to garner votes from influential (read “monied”) special interest groups. The first attempt to put that EX-clusive motto on money came from a cabal of Christian businessmen (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) who, in 1861 “influenced” a lame-duck congress to make the change from the original "E Pluribus Unum". They also wanted to change the Preamble to the Constitution to read,
"We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all
authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the Ruler among the nations, His revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government..."
Doesn't that establishment crap make you cringe? The best that could be said about the congress that passed this proposal, is that they might have been so terrorized by the cabal’s Preamble change, they caved on the motto issue. Still, that was at the expense of what is right and good for the country as a whole.
If there are those who still insist that Christians are not trying to establish a state religion, let them accept a proposal to print “In Allah We Trust.” Let them put up on government buildings, “In the Great Spirit We Trust.” How about, “We Don’t Trust Any God.”
I have some support material on this same topic which was posted on Alternet several months ago. Unfortunately, I neglected to mark the original author. If it was you, I apologize for not being as organized as usual, but your stuff is too good not to repost it.
"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?"- James Madison
“I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest morality that has ever been taught” “. . . but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invested by priestcraft and established by kingcraft, constituting a conspiracy of church and state against the civil and religious liberties of mankind.” -Thomas Jefferson.
Lastly, ”I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of ‘conservatism.’"
-Senator Barry Goldwater
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» RE: There are none so blind as those who refuse to see
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: There are none so blind as those who refuse to see
Posted by: luckypuck
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Posted by: cherylsass123 on Mar 20, 2008 3:47 AM
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Posted by: Intellect on Mar 20, 2008 6:00 AM
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The establishment of the chaplainship in Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights as well as of Constitutional principles.
The danger of silent accumulations and encroachments by ecclesiastical bodies has not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S.”-- James Madison, statement when being outvoted in the bill to establish the office of Congressional Chaplains, from Madison's "Detached Memoranda"
“Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments, the real power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the constituents.”-- James Madison, letter to Thomas Jefferson, October 17, 1788
“I observe with particular pleasure the view you have taken of the immunity of religion from civil jurisdiction, in every case where it does not trespass on private rights or the public peace. This has always been a favorite principal with me; and it was not with my approbation that the deviation from it took place in congress, when they appointed chaplains, to be paid from the national treasury. It would have been a much better proof to their constituents of their pious feeling if the members had contributed for the purpose a pittance from their own pockets. As the precedent is not likely to be rescinded, the best that can now be done maybe to apply to the constitution the maxim of the law, de minimis non currant”-- James Madison, being outvoted in the bill to establish the office of Congressional Chaplain, Madison's Writings, Vol. 3, p. 274
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» RE: James Madison - The father of our Constitution
Posted by: luckypuck
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Posted by: BeyondBeliefs on Mar 20, 2008 3:02 PM
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If we are to be judged by our association with the preachers of ancient barbaric flat earth religious doctrines, then we will never escape the ignorance of our barbaric past.
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Posted by: binkey on Mar 20, 2008 3:09 PM
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Get over it- most of don't believe in god, and the christians have been so rude to the rest of us (by trying to take over our government, or dictate who we can marry, for example)that we are no longer hiding our complete disbelief in their poorly conceived collection of fairy tales out of politeness.
At this point in history, when I hear someone publicly professing their faith, I seriously wonder what their secret perversion is. The psychological complexities of participating in such "faith" are such that, if one didn't have a strong need to avoid the truth, one would have no need for such a convoluted view of reality.
If this seems disrespectful, I can only say that it pales in comparison to the disrespect that these christians have been dishing out in large steaming helpings to the civil society that I support, and the constitution upon which it rests.
And I am so tired of the assault on the constitution. The history of this country is full separation of church and state. This was introduced from the very beginning FOR THE PROTECTION OF CHRISTIANS.
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» RE: false claim
Posted by: drbill
» RE: false claim
Posted by: EJ
» RE: false claim
Posted by: oceanwaves99999
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Posted by: Beepath on Mar 21, 2008 3:49 AM
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Posted by: Kuressaare on Mar 23, 2008 7:36 AM
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But let me revert here, this idea of a religious people and those Chirstian: you know how insulting you are? I find your religion unacceptable, the ingenuiy of execution varieties in order to avoid the shedding of blood. Honestly, do explore Mithraism, that's Zorastianism's predecessor (maybe), bull's blood, and one does not mean Egri Bikavér, the Hungarian wine
And cheers too, next time around one could be born to Shinto parents, who are much in tune with the natural world, despite the spurious claims in the allied world after the war. If it takes no more than being born to parents of a certain religion in order to become one of that religion, and I am damned if I can see any other rationale for what most of us wind up with, then I'll look forward to another try for you, but I am happy being left out, so that is a great moderator, yes?
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Posted by: theblaast on Mar 24, 2008 5:29 PM
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