COMMENTS: 47
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, Who's the Cruelest Species of Them All?
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She was killed in the wild by the crew that captured the first in a series of young orcas that have since been trained to do tricks at San Diego's Sea World marine park, known sequentially as America's most famous performing sea mammals.
And maybe that's all you need to know to realize just how far humans will go. Maybe that's all you need to know -- were you beside me on those bleachers, years ago, cheering Shamu? -- to see blood, even faded and vestigial, on your hands.
Erin E. Williams and Margo DeMello's Why Animals Matter: The Case for Animal Protection (Prometheus, 2007) is a book so jam-packed with literal crimes against nature that it's hard to read more than a few pages in one go. Williams works for the Humane Society of the United States. DeMello is an administrative director of the House Rabbit Society.
Together they have painstakingly assembled statistics, news reports, anecdotes, and observations exposing the sufferings of so many creatures in so many industries -- food, fashion, entertainment, medicine -- as well as hobbies ranging from hunting to ostensibly positive pet-ownership that you recoil from revelation after revelation about Chinese cat-fur coats, say, or "spent" racehorses that are slaughtered for dogfood. On information overload, you blink: Wait … my species does that?
Indeed it does.
It hunts over 22 million mourning doves in the US every year.
It rounded up tens of thousands of pet dogs in China in 2006 and slaughtered them in an alleged health campaign.
It gorges on salmon factory-farmed in such overcrowded tanks that their skeletons become malformed and their skullbones burst through their skin in a condition called "death crown."
Imitating rap stars and other fashion icons, it has enthusiastically revived a moribund fur and exotic-animal-skin industry.
It wears the hides of alligators that were either slashed and bled to death or flayed alive.
It indulges in cosmetics tested by the weeks-long application of toxins to the eyes of rabbits locked in stocks.
It bets on battles between fowl drugged with steroids, strychnine and amphetamine and bred specially to tear out each other's eyes, rip each other's flesh and break each other's bones in fight after big-money fight.
It shoots zebras and yaks in Texas.
We tell ourselves that we already know enough about this: at least the basics, all we need to know. Yet just as car accidents don't let you look away, this book's breadth and specificity compels you to linger and learn more, then more again: collecting grisly tidbits to marvel at. To sling later at idiots. To arrange side by side along those moral lines that will shimmer in some future sand as you wonder which shampoo to use, which clothing brands to buy or what to eat.
This is the rest of the tour that Eric Schlosser began in Fast Food Nation -- paced not quite at a bovine plod but still deliberately, somberly slow -- of that bustling, bloody world-within-a-world in which terrible things happen to animals. The evidence is everywhere: in the bedroom closet, the medicine cabinet, the fridge, the restaurant, the cupboard full of cleansers under the sink. It's at the pet shop, circus, zoo, aquarium, boutique. Even if you're a pleather-clad vegan sitting perfectly still in an open field, you are implicated -- used -- as an ostensible statistic, who by virtue of belonging to Homo sapiens can still be considered a potential eventual customer for countless cosmetics, comestibles, clothes, drugs and other future products whose marketing schemes are already under way. The macular degeneration, diabetes or fondness for fur-trimmed jackets that you might or might not someday develop is reason enough for wealthy powerful companies to justify inflicting untold things on untold creatures: "Even with all of our laws," Williams and DeMello muse, "and even with a nation of caring people, we still tolerate -- and many of us unwittingly participate in -- an unprecedented degree of animal cruelty. How can this be so?
"Perhaps the biggest reason why society tolerates routine abuse of animals is that for the most part, these abuses are hidden."
It's as if a huge mill is in perpetual motion, grinding away behind the scenes, a constant stream of creatures being fed nonstop into its maw.
Rather than "engage in complicated philosophical arguments," the authors stake a claim instead on our "common sense and common decency":
"While we can purchase cheaper meat from animals who never experienced sun or air," they venture (and by using the pronoun "who" in reference to nonhumans they make a deliberate political choice), "while we can buy virtually any animal we want as a pet, while scientists can create mice with human genes and even with human tissue, and while rich hunters can pay thousands of dollars to shoot an endangered, tranquilized animal, most of us, if we knew the realities behind those choices, would take a step back and reconsider … just because we can do all these things, should we?"Dispensing with analysis, they're all about disgorging details: shock after shock, yuck after yuck, scare after scare in what amounts to a collective elegy for a century-plus' worth of sick, injured and dead animals. Which among the thousands of details in these pages will stick in your mind, as opposed to my mind or that guy's over there, depends Rorschach-like on your personal history, sensitivities and quirks. Because I happen to be a hypochondriac -- don't cough anywhere near me on the bus -- it's the ailments, human and animal, that I imagine oozing and throbbing long after shutting this book. Fur-farmed minks, for example, are susceptible to gastric lesions, tumors, botulism, diarrhea, cysts and eye disease. Egg-farmed hens get osteoporosis, liver hemorrhagic syndrome, and uterine prolapse, in which the womb distends outside the body. From constant contact with feces, dairy-factory cows get a painful and potentially lethal udder infection called mastitis. Marine mammals confined in concrete tanks tend toward pneumonia, bacterial infections, and abscesses. For pet-industry rabbits, it's reproductive cancers.
When animals "defecate or vomit on the workers" in factory farms, "they can spread diseases such as E. coli, campylobacter, and listeria." In case you're curious, campylobacter causes bleeding gums, oral bone-loss and dysentery. "Factory farm workers are also exposed to infectious diseases such as anthrax, psittacosis, brucellosis, leptospirocis, swine influenza A, and avian influenza A," the authors write.
Good to know. And we can only guess at the pathogenic legacy of industrial accidents such as the 1995 spill that sent 25 million gallons of hog waste into a North Carolina river. For you it might not be the diseases that resonate but rather the photographs, say, or the pain: Fur-farmed foxes are killed, for instance, by having metal rods jammed into their anuses and being induced to bite electrodes. Or it might be the pathos: Hunters collecting live specimens for early zoos, for example, "boasted in excruciating detail of … the baby animals who mourned at the sides of their dead mothers until they were snatched away, put into cages or tied or chained up, and transported to Europe. Because most social animals like gorillas, chimpanzees, elephants and hippos guard their young, collectors had to kill the adults (sometimes the females, but often the entire herd) when capturing their babies." This is no longer standard practice, although it's too late for Shamu's mother and the rest.
Or it might be the sheer numbers that get you: over 3.8 million kangaroos killed for their skins every year in Australia. Some 265,000 rabbits and 65,000 dogs used in US laboratories in 2004 alone for toxicity tests, medical-school surgery instruction, dental and heart experiments and more. Sixty billion pounds of sea animals killed and discarded annually by industrial fishing operations worldwide as "bycatch" after being caught in deepwater trawls and purse seines set out for other species. Tens of thousands of dolphins at a time corralled into coves and slaughtered en masse for their meat during Japanese "dolphin drives." Tens of thousands of pet dogs seized from their owners and clubbed, hanged and shot during that 2006 anti-rabies campaign staged by the Chinese government. Thirty-five thousand miles of US rivers in 22 states and groundwater in seventeen states contaminated by factory-farm runoff, according to the EPA.
At the end of each chapter, the authors offer helpful, practical pointers. Report poachers, they suggest. Buy a vegetarian cookbook. Watch animal-friendly TV shows such as Animal Cops and Emergency Vets. Spay or neuter your pet. Buy cruelty-free products. Vote. These tips are peaceful little polyps in what is otherwise an unflinching indictment of human appetites, of our ridiculous desires. It's an indictment of our behaviors and ourselves. They are not named in this book, but it is flesh-and-blood individuals -- mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, friends, husbands and wives -- who flay those live 'gators. And who insist, via groups such as the National Alternative Pet Association, that they are entitled to own skunks, wallabies, hedgehogs, and exotic cats, even to buy tiger cubs online for a few thousand bucks each.
It is mothers and fathers, husbands and wives who Internet-hunt, paying to really shoot real animals in real time via a gun and webcam connected via remote control to their computer mice. And somebody loves them.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 23, 2008 2:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not all of this is hidden from the consumer. If you have a decent-sized oriental grocery store in your area, check it out.
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» RE: Long overdue
Posted by: donl51
» project for a new corporate century(PNCC)
Posted by: srob
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Posted by: g50 on Feb 23, 2008 2:38 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Meh
Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: Meh
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Meh
Posted by: lepidopteryx
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Posted by: rickiey on Feb 23, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just look to how we treat each other.
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» RE: We don't need to look at animals
Posted by: Knowmad
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Posted by: pauleau on Feb 23, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Order this book!
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Order this book!
Posted by: satyagirl
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Posted by: Southern Gal on Feb 23, 2008 8:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Feb 23, 2008 9:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: You have to be rich to care about animals
Posted by: bc-hk
» RE: You have to be rich to care about animals
Posted by: paradoctor
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Posted by: SalB on Feb 23, 2008 9:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From constant contact with feces, dairy-factory cows get a painful and potentially lethal udder infection called mastitis.
By all accounts, no farmer is happy to have cows with mastitis. It happens, sure, but when it does, farmers identify the problem and cure the disease. By extension, I can imagine that other farmers likewise do not want their animals to be diseased.
Now, these were family dairy farms I visited, with less than 200 head of cattle. Factory farming may be far worse. Factory farming is the problem. If every American cut their meat consumption in half, we would have half as many cows in these factory farms, maybe one chicken per cage instead of two, reducing the need for de-beaking, half as many pigs that can't turn around in their stalls. We don't need to wear fur anymore, many cosmetics are never tested on animals and work very well, but converting all 6 billion humans to a vegan diet is a long way off.
I decided to stop eating meat as a way to reduce the demand for meat and thus reduce the need for factory farming. I don't think that people shouldn't eat meat or consume dairy products (I do plenty of the latter), but I do know that factory farming creates horrible conditions that make me embarrassed for our civilization. I guess shock tactics work on some people, PETA depends on that for membership, but some of these are exaggerated and that puts the whole argument into question.
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» You don't have to support PETA
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Not that I disagree..
Posted by: gazooks
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Posted by: Peripheral Vision on Feb 23, 2008 9:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Feb. 2007: The HSUS Files Suit against Amazon.com and Others for Sale of Illegal Dog Fighting and Cockfighting Paraphernalia
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Posted by: jrc on Feb 23, 2008 3:58 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kkancler on Feb 23, 2008 5:16 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Be the change you wish to see....
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Feb 23, 2008 6:57 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
furthermore, the distaste for asians and others eating animals such as dogs, cats and horses is a cultural matter...hindus for example are appalled by our consumption of cows...
i certainly do not advocate treating animals inhumanely, and don't eat very much meat anymore (and much of what i do eat is kosher because of how it is raised not because of religious belief)but don't confuse humane treatment of animals with amerocentric/eurocentric/anglocentric ideas about "our" culture being the only "correct" culture.
ultimately we americans use too much stuff - PERIOD.
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» RE: eating lower on the food chain
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: eating lower on the food chain
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: eating lower on the food chain
Posted by: PirateJesus
» Devil's advocacy?
Posted by: heid
» RE: Devil's advocacy?
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Veggiepres on Feb 23, 2008 7:29 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, the production and consumption of meat appears to violate basic religious teachings re preservation of our health and lives, proper treatment of animals, protection of the environmant and conservation of resources.
It is time that a consideration of the many moral issues related to animal-based diets be put on society's agenda. For more information, please visit JewishVeg.com/schwartz, and to see our one-hour documentary A SACRED DUTY: Applying Jewish Values to Help Heal the World,which challenges the Jewish and other communities re animal abuses and much more, please visit ASacredDuty.com.
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Posted by: carlabrauer on Feb 24, 2008 4:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the reviewer points out with her references to disease and environmental degradation, this book also shows us that caring for animals need not take time away from any humanitarian goals - animal, environmental and human protection are undoubtedly linked, and we can't have one without the others.
Thanks once again for bringing attention to this very important book!
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Posted by: aurorac on Feb 25, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: paradoctor on Feb 25, 2008 10:52 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nor are we the cruelest to our own kind. Ants have war and slavery; male lions routinely kill the cubs of their defeated rivals; and don't get me started on praying mantises and black widow spiders.
It is true that we have a bad conscience about our violence. Perhaps in the future we will atone for this by dining only on meat grown in vats. Until then we will indulge our species egocentrism by hypocritically bemoaning/celebrating our badassness.
But the truth is humiliating, as usual. We aren't even the worst.
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» we are the worst
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: we are the worst
Posted by: paradoctor
» RE: Cruelest? Not even close
Posted by: satyagirl
» RE: Cruelest? Not even close
Posted by: paradoctor
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Posted by: RobinB on Feb 26, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: satyagirl on Feb 26, 2008 12:24 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If going vegan sounds too radical or life-altering, make a commitment to try going veg just one day a week. You'll be surprised by how easy it is. Check out ChooseVeg.com for some great recipes and ideas for how to make the transition.
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Posted by: Adela on Feb 26, 2008 1:32 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Truly, Peace begins in the Kitchen and on our Dinner Plates !
Posted by: Addwaita
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Posted by: Roverton on Feb 26, 2008 6:52 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
under the Sun.
And of them,
we are merely one.
But what's the top
of the food-chain to do,
when all you have
left to hunt is you?
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» pfft!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: pangea on Feb 27, 2008 6:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I would like to speculate a little, on the development of life in the universe, and in particular, the development of intelligent life. I shall take this to include the human race, even though much of its behavior through out history has been pretty stupid, and not calculated to aid the survival of the species."
Stephen Hawkings
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Posted by: LEILANI33 on Feb 27, 2008 3:04 PM
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Posted by: jiclemens on Feb 27, 2008 3:22 PM
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Posted by: TheLimit on Mar 1, 2008 2:36 PM
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For starters, take their assertions of anal electrocution of fur animals.
Please, go and find out how fur animals are actually being killed. Don't take my word for it that there is no anal electrocution out there, search for euthanasia methods for fur animals and see what you find.
The only people who talk about anal electrocution are the Animal Rights Organizations. The group having the oversight of fur farming is the AVMA in the US .. that's a hint, go and check it out yourself.
Since this particular lie has been told for at least 30 years that I know of, and since no one seems to challenge it, I would be really curious to know what other barefaced lies we are being told by the AROs. Vegans and AR proponents are forever asking me for proof that my position has any merit.
I suggest that we start demanding hard proof from them that their 'facts' are indeed factual, and not sick fantasies designed to separate people from their money and choices.
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Posted by: doctorbove on Mar 4, 2008 6:57 PM
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 23, 2008 2:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not all of this is hidden from the consumer. If you have a decent-sized oriental grocery store in your area, check it out.
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» RE: Long overdue
Posted by: donl51
» project for a new corporate century(PNCC)
Posted by: srob
Comments are closed-
Posted by: g50 on Feb 23, 2008 2:38 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Meh
Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: Meh
Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Meh
Posted by: lepidopteryx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rickiey on Feb 23, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just look to how we treat each other.
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» RE: We don't need to look at animals
Posted by: Knowmad
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Posted by: pauleau on Feb 23, 2008 6:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Order this book!
Posted by: donl51
» RE: Order this book!
Posted by: satyagirl
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Posted by: Southern Gal on Feb 23, 2008 8:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Feb 23, 2008 9:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: You have to be rich to care about animals
Posted by: bc-hk
» RE: You have to be rich to care about animals
Posted by: paradoctor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SalB on Feb 23, 2008 9:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From constant contact with feces, dairy-factory cows get a painful and potentially lethal udder infection called mastitis.
By all accounts, no farmer is happy to have cows with mastitis. It happens, sure, but when it does, farmers identify the problem and cure the disease. By extension, I can imagine that other farmers likewise do not want their animals to be diseased.
Now, these were family dairy farms I visited, with less than 200 head of cattle. Factory farming may be far worse. Factory farming is the problem. If every American cut their meat consumption in half, we would have half as many cows in these factory farms, maybe one chicken per cage instead of two, reducing the need for de-beaking, half as many pigs that can't turn around in their stalls. We don't need to wear fur anymore, many cosmetics are never tested on animals and work very well, but converting all 6 billion humans to a vegan diet is a long way off.
I decided to stop eating meat as a way to reduce the demand for meat and thus reduce the need for factory farming. I don't think that people shouldn't eat meat or consume dairy products (I do plenty of the latter), but I do know that factory farming creates horrible conditions that make me embarrassed for our civilization. I guess shock tactics work on some people, PETA depends on that for membership, but some of these are exaggerated and that puts the whole argument into question.
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» You don't have to support PETA
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Not that I disagree..
Posted by: gazooks
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Peripheral Vision on Feb 23, 2008 9:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Feb. 2007: The HSUS Files Suit against Amazon.com and Others for Sale of Illegal Dog Fighting and Cockfighting Paraphernalia
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Posted by: jrc on Feb 23, 2008 3:58 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kkancler on Feb 23, 2008 5:16 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Be the change you wish to see....
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Feb 23, 2008 6:57 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
furthermore, the distaste for asians and others eating animals such as dogs, cats and horses is a cultural matter...hindus for example are appalled by our consumption of cows...
i certainly do not advocate treating animals inhumanely, and don't eat very much meat anymore (and much of what i do eat is kosher because of how it is raised not because of religious belief)but don't confuse humane treatment of animals with amerocentric/eurocentric/anglocentric ideas about "our" culture being the only "correct" culture.
ultimately we americans use too much stuff - PERIOD.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: eating lower on the food chain
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: eating lower on the food chain
Posted by: PirateJesus
» RE: eating lower on the food chain
Posted by: PirateJesus
» Devil's advocacy?
Posted by: heid
» RE: Devil's advocacy?
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Veggiepres on Feb 23, 2008 7:29 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, the production and consumption of meat appears to violate basic religious teachings re preservation of our health and lives, proper treatment of animals, protection of the environmant and conservation of resources.
It is time that a consideration of the many moral issues related to animal-based diets be put on society's agenda. For more information, please visit JewishVeg.com/schwartz, and to see our one-hour documentary A SACRED DUTY: Applying Jewish Values to Help Heal the World,which challenges the Jewish and other communities re animal abuses and much more, please visit ASacredDuty.com.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: carlabrauer on Feb 24, 2008 4:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the reviewer points out with her references to disease and environmental degradation, this book also shows us that caring for animals need not take time away from any humanitarian goals - animal, environmental and human protection are undoubtedly linked, and we can't have one without the others.
Thanks once again for bringing attention to this very important book!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
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Posted by: aurorac on Feb 25, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: paradoctor on Feb 25, 2008 10:52 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nor are we the cruelest to our own kind. Ants have war and slavery; male lions routinely kill the cubs of their defeated rivals; and don't get me started on praying mantises and black widow spiders.
It is true that we have a bad conscience about our violence. Perhaps in the future we will atone for this by dining only on meat grown in vats. Until then we will indulge our species egocentrism by hypocritically bemoaning/celebrating our badassness.
But the truth is humiliating, as usual. We aren't even the worst.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» we are the worst
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: we are the worst
Posted by: paradoctor
» RE: Cruelest? Not even close
Posted by: satyagirl
» RE: Cruelest? Not even close
Posted by: paradoctor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: RobinB on Feb 26, 2008 9:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: satyagirl on Feb 26, 2008 12:24 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If going vegan sounds too radical or life-altering, make a commitment to try going veg just one day a week. You'll be surprised by how easy it is. Check out ChooseVeg.com for some great recipes and ideas for how to make the transition.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Adela on Feb 26, 2008 1:32 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Truly, Peace begins in the Kitchen and on our Dinner Plates !
Posted by: Addwaita
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Roverton on Feb 26, 2008 6:52 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
under the Sun.
And of them,
we are merely one.
But what's the top
of the food-chain to do,
when all you have
left to hunt is you?
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» pfft!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: pangea on Feb 27, 2008 6:12 AM
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"I would like to speculate a little, on the development of life in the universe, and in particular, the development of intelligent life. I shall take this to include the human race, even though much of its behavior through out history has been pretty stupid, and not calculated to aid the survival of the species."
Stephen Hawkings
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Posted by: LEILANI33 on Feb 27, 2008 3:04 PM
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Posted by: jiclemens on Feb 27, 2008 3:22 PM
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Posted by: TheLimit on Mar 1, 2008 2:36 PM
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For starters, take their assertions of anal electrocution of fur animals.
Please, go and find out how fur animals are actually being killed. Don't take my word for it that there is no anal electrocution out there, search for euthanasia methods for fur animals and see what you find.
The only people who talk about anal electrocution are the Animal Rights Organizations. The group having the oversight of fur farming is the AVMA in the US .. that's a hint, go and check it out yourself.
Since this particular lie has been told for at least 30 years that I know of, and since no one seems to challenge it, I would be really curious to know what other barefaced lies we are being told by the AROs. Vegans and AR proponents are forever asking me for proof that my position has any merit.
I suggest that we start demanding hard proof from them that their 'facts' are indeed factual, and not sick fantasies designed to separate people from their money and choices.
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Posted by: doctorbove on Mar 4, 2008 6:57 PM
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