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Rights and Liberties

A Change of Heart: From Pro-Life to Pro-Choice

By Anna Clark, RH Reality Check. Posted January 9, 2008.


What makes a woman change her view on a deeply held, intensely personal belief?
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What if I told you that I used to call myself pro-life?

What if I said that I once believed abortion was murder, or that I suspected women used the procedure to bypass the consequences of sex?

If I told you, would I lose your respect? Would you be suspicious when I say that today I'm committed to the right to reproductive health, access, and choice?

If so, you wouldn't be the first.

I'm a person who changed her mind. And no, it didn't happen with cymbal-crashing drama -- no unexpected pregnancy of my own or anyone I'm close to (that I know of). It didn't happen with abrupt college-age fervor; though I entered the University of Michigan as a progressive, I held onto my belief that abortion was wrong (though I got quieter about it).

Here's what did happen:

Growing up in Michigan, I advocated social systems as a response to unwanted pregnancies. Sure, there were plenty of reasons why someone wouldn't have the ability or desire to parent. But don't punish the future child, I argued.

Adoption seemed an ideal compromise. With some systematic improvements, then, I thought, abortion is rendered moot and the world will be just.

Fast forward: In college, I was part of the Prison Creative Arts Project. PCAP planned an event on reproductive rights and incarcerated women. It wanted the campus pro-choice group to sponsor it.

I argued for having both the pro-choice and the anti-abortion groups sponsor the forum. A more diverse audience! We won't preach to that interminable choir! Besides, not all inmates are pro-choice. No, of course, we don't want this to be a debate. Let's have a nuanced conversation.

In this leftist group, alluding to anti-abortion views was no less startling and shameful than if I'd proceeded to urinate on another PCAPer. The others made meaningful eye contact to each other and moved on. The event was sponsored by the pro-choice group.

Stay with me for one more fast forward.

In my twenties, in Boston, I was part of a feminist book club when I still hedged around identifying as pro-choice. Such a claim felt akin to articulating God: putting spirituality into words seemed to inevitably misrepresent it.

To assert the label "pro-choice" felt like I was taking somebody else's language to describe a most personal feeling about my own body and, yes, about my spirituality. To call it my own felt phony, cheap, and careless.

In my heart, however, the change had happened. I supported the right to choose, but I balked at throwing myself into the cartoonish divisions of the public "conversation" about abortion. So I said nothing. Silence seemed the only alternative to submitting my beliefs to sloganeering.

What changed?

I don't remember the day. But that day didn't come until after I'd met people -- surprise! -- who'd chosen abortion. It came after my school friends became parents; after I began having sex and selecting birth control; after I experienced and witnessed sexual harassment.

In short, it happened after pro-choice rhetoric took a human shape. I saw those I loved. I saw myself.

Today, I have the passion of a convert for reproductive rights. I remain equally passionate in my resistance to the machine that bypasses all ambiguity about abortion.

I didn't "switch sides;" I'm against the notion of "sides" in the first place.

I spent years in ambivalence, despite an inward belief in reproductive rights. While acknowledging my cowardice, I would've allied myself with the cause sooner had choice advocates talked with me, rather than dismiss me as an anti-choicer not worth the breath. I would've spoken sooner had I not felt that I must forsake anti-choice family and friends to do so.

My story echoes others -- those of parents, students, clinic workers; religious and non-religious individuals; those who changed their minds, those who changed their reasons, and those who changed nothing. Not only are a great many people unable to split themselves between the enemy camps of "pro-life" and "pro-choice," but there is widespread revulsion at how abortion is talked about.

Depending on whose statistics you use, 37-43% of American women have an abortion. Why don't more people connect their private and public ethic?

"I hear: 'Don't get me wrong, I'm pro-choice, I always have been, I just never thought I'd be here,'" said Claire Keyes, director of Pittsburgh's Allegheny Reproductive Health Center. "And others who come in, who have been anti-abortion their whole life, they say: 'Now I don't know how I can live with myself; not because of having abortion, but because I feel like a hypocrite.'"

Dr. Megan Gilliam practices pediatric and adolescent gynecology at a University of Chicago hospital; among other responsibilities, she provides abortions. When asked about patients that identify as "pro-life," she said, "Oh, it happens all the time."

"People obtain services for their reason," Gilliam said. "We luckily don't have protesters, but they tell me about how they protest (a clinic) one day, come in the next, and are back out protesting a few days later."


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I have hated the labels pro-choice & pro-life for a long time.
Posted by: techphile on Jan 9, 2008 2:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have used the terms antiabortion and proabortion for the past 15 years since they actually not marketing buzzwords. About the doctors who are anti-abortion I wonder how many of them would use their skills to help the government torture people better or happily take part in activities like the Tuskegee experiment? Let alone do more mundane things such as fight against universal health care.

If all life is so sacred why is it that we can have mofos like Bush, Huckabee, as well millions of other folks be against research or medical practices that improve people's lives. or have policies that condemn masses of humanity to untimely, painful & unnecessary deaths. And then get passionate about Schiavos & embryos?

I can understand that there are philosophical reasons why someone might be antiabortion but I see so much inconsistency in the values of the antiabortionists. Lastly I wish journalists would not interview a few people and try and make a trend based on personal experiences. Maybe gonzo journalism is a superior after all.

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It's all about choice
Posted by: anothername on Jan 9, 2008 4:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's good to see a piece showing that thinking about and switching positions happens and that age often makes those changes happen.

I have been hearing from women in the past year who say they want choices. The subliminal language is that of the abortion debate, but the message is that choice applies to everything. Have a child/don't have a child. Work in a non-profit helping single mothers/work as an insurance executive denying health care to single mothers. Stay home with children/leave the children with dad and run for office. It's all the right to choose.

For me, the abortion debate is not about life. It is about who chooses who lives and dies. While there are many people, women and men, who have a deeply-held belief that abortion is wrong, many people are against abortion less because of values of life than about the lack of a woman's right to make any choice concerning her own life or the welfare of her children.

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I switched after my baby
Posted by: terradea42 on Jan 9, 2008 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was vehemently pro-life, born-again, all that. When I was younger, I believed nothing could justify abortion, especially after reading the propaganda left in my high school. Then I got married and had a baby. And I realized that forcing someone to go through that against her will was tantamount to enslaving or torturing someone. The emotional and physical ramifications of pregnancy and childbirth are immense, inexplicable. It affects your entire being as a woman.

Soon after, my sister got pregnant and, being pro-life, gave up her baby for adoption. I see her today, still sad, still lost, still incomplete. She has suffered mental anguish for nearly three decades now. Giving up a child can rip out your soul.

As a woman, as a human, I would NEVER force a woman to go through pregnancy, childbirth or giving up her baby. Anyone who would, in my opinion, hates women and wants to see them suffer. And the Christians are the worst. After all, if a "life" is lost in abortion, the innocent "baby" would go straight to God, the best place it could be, right?

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» RE: I switched after my baby Posted by: PaladinQB
» RE: I switched after my baby Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: I switched after my baby Posted by: abbadon2007
» RE: I switched after my baby Posted by: morticia
Horror Story
Posted by: wagadog on Jan 9, 2008 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Marie Cirile wrote this memoir of her experiences as the first female police detective in the city of New York.

In one chapter, we find this horror story.

She was investigating an abortionist in Queens, when it was illegal. She was stopped from getting a wiretap despite ample probable cause presented to the judge, on the basis that "We don't wiretap Doctors in Queens."

Soon thereafter, there was a problem with the plumbing in the neighborhood -- adult human remains.

A girl had died under the knife, and -- because the procedure was illegal at the time -- rather than reporting the death, he'd chopped her up in little bitty pieces and flushed her down the toilet.

Statistically, making abortion illegal does not, on its own stop abortion from taking place--but it does cause horror stories like this.

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» this is partly why... Posted by: setterwoman
» Off topic! Posted by: kwms
» RE: Off topic! Posted by: morticia
» RE: Off topic! Posted by: kwms
» RE: Off topic! Posted by: morticia
» RE: Off topic! Posted by: kwms
» RE: Off topic! Posted by: morticia
Naoma
Posted by: Naoma on Jan 9, 2008 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am and have always been "pro choice." I believe that if a woman wants an abortion, it is her right. If you do not want one, do not have one. But, do not push your views on another person. It is legal and the government is trying to take this "right" away.

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Pro-life is NOT pro-life
Posted by: Mamarianne on Jan 9, 2008 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One would think that those carrying pro-life banners would be marching in support of health care, safe food, clean water, and fair wages. One would think that those opposed to abortion would examine the reasons why women choose to end pregnancies and focus on offering women better choices.
Isn't it ironic that the same politicians that support foced pregnancy under the banner of pro-life have been pro-war, pro-capital punishment, and anti-medical research?

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» Great comment! Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Great comment! Posted by: data23
» Pro-war and pro-birth Posted by: elisevil
Another word for them...
Posted by: mainspark on Jan 9, 2008 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"People obtain services for their reason," Gilliam said. "We luckily don't have protesters, but they tell me about how they protest (a clinic) one day, come in the next, and are back out protesting a few days later."

The word used to describe those people is hypocrite.

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How to get a Republican to be Pro-Choice
Posted by: hms2004 on Jan 9, 2008 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tell him his daughter is pregnant and the father is black.

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A letter to my daughters
Posted by: warrior woman on Jan 9, 2008 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wrote this a couple of years ago. Part I, II follows

3-12-06 A letter to my daughters

Sometimes I know that it’s tough living with a mother such as I am. One who is outspoken, prone to opinions and goes off to work on one cause or another.

At some point in time, I believe that you will understand and come to appreciate what I do today is for you tomorrow and for those granddaughters that I hope some day to have. You see, it is my generation that was among the first to be fully educated, work without ropes to bind, speak our minds and generally not have to submit to the ever present and dominant male. Our generation married our partners out of love and respect; no one arranged our futures for us. No one made decisions for us as had been done for thousands of years.

You see, dear ones, we have been the lucky ones. We have not been forced to cover our faces in shame, rather, we walk proud of our accomplishments. It is for this reason that I do what I do. It is for this reason that I wish to protect those same rights for you. What do you know of the repression of our grandmothers before us? Truly, none of your generation comprehend why now, I have fear.

Not a word that I use often, fear. But yet, this is ever present. I wish for you, my girls, to enjoy the same richness of life and liberty that I have enjoyed and for which I will now fight.

There are those who speak of protecting children. They will speak that they put the rights of unborn children at or in fact, above those of the mother. This is what I have to say to you:

No woman “likes” or “wants” abortions to occur, all women would like this procedure to go away, however….

When women are in a position where they may die if a pregnancy is not terminated, a woman and/or her family will be faced with making a decision. This decision will not come easily. Should the woman be forced to die for this reason? I think not. Until we have medical practices to ensure the life of the mother, we are faced with this decision.

When a woman is raped, she is faced with a decision to carry or not carry the child. Until the time comes when women are no longer raped, there will be a need to make a decision in this regard.

When a woman or girl is a victim of incest and becomes pregnant, a decision must be made to carry or not carry the child. Until the time comes that young girls and women are no longer victims of incest from their fathers, uncles, grandfathers and brothers, there will be abortions.

When a mother looks into the trusting and loving eyes of the children she has born yet knows that she can not feed them or clothe them if there is another mouth to feed, there is a difficult decision to make. Until such time that WE take responsibility as a nation for our underserved and educating couples on birth control, decisions will be made.

Until these things happen, abortion will continue whether legal or not. When we take away the right to choose, we do not take away abortion for that will continue, make no mistake, instead we take away healthcare from women who are already struggling with life’s most difficult decision. We force women to go underground, to take risks that imperil their lives and have in fact killed thousands.

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A letter to my daughters, Part II
Posted by: warrior woman on Jan 9, 2008 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I support women’s rights to make decisions regarding their own physical and emotional well being. I support you, my daughters, in all your endeavors. Life presents many challenges, I hope that I have given you the basis to make good decisions yourselves and that others are not put to the test to make decisions for you that will bring you to harm. We are as smart as the men in our lives but for some women this is not the case. We are the lucky ones. We are loved. We are supported spiritually and emotionally by the men we care for and who care for us. Yes, we are the lucky ones.

Because we are the fortunate, it is our duty to speak out for those that can not. We must protect our fellow sisters from exploit and ill will. It is our duty. We are equal citizens under the Constitution. We will not fall backward, it is our job to move forward to bring this country riches beyond imagination because without us, there is no country.

I promise you, dears, that I will raise my voice to protect you as long as I live. I will use whatever legal means are available to me to ensure your futures and those of my grandchildren. I will protect you. I love you.

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» RE: A letter to my daughters, Part II Posted by: Realliberal87
Boldness
Posted by: saltoafronteira on Jan 9, 2008 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree, to a certain extent, with the author of this article but, anyway, as usual, the issue is not clearly stated. So, I take the liberty of giving my own point of vue of how the issue "should" be stated.
Point one: Pro-choice must prevail because there is a conflict of rights and interests between two human lifes that must, in the end, lie in the mothers decision and responsability because, ultimately, the burden of raising and educating lays on her shoulders, as well as the burden of terminating the foetus life.
Point two: Therefore, all the medical care must be allowed, by non objector medics, if the choice is to abort, and the mother cannot be legally persecuted because of that.
Point three: When the mother is a minor of 16, it is an enormous problem to determine who has the burden of choice. Ultimately I would propose a psicological evaluation of the person to determine her capacity of choice and, if negative, adoption should be the choice.
Point four: that choice between human lifes and interests doesnt erase the fact that abortion constitutes the killing of a human being, and it is an enormous hipocrisy trying to avoid that assumption.
So, we must assume it without hipocrisy and state its absolutely exceptional status, in order to avoid the precedent it otherwise constitutes. Protection of life must always be the base value. Abortion and, perhaps, euthanasia, must be absolute exceptions. Changing that basic value will end, in a generation or two, in eugenic abortion and socially forced euthanasia, along with the actual worldwide low value of life, to wich that hipocrsy already contributes.
Point four: As an exceptional situation, abortion must be deterred by all indirect means, above all sexual education on contraception since 11 or 12 years, in classes, as a central and imposed curriculum.
Fighting politicaly for the enforcement of these points is, in my point of vue, the only serious way to do something.
But that's only me.....

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Abortion IS wrong
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jan 9, 2008 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(Disclaimer: As a libertarian I dont want the government to be involved in issues such as these. I am pro-choice but I believe there is only one right choice.)

Abortion IS wrong. I dont like it when people delude themselves of that fact. 50 million dead fetuses is wrong no matter how you look at it. It's disgusting, and if there was a God then our country would be suffering his wrath for allowing this to happen. But even if you're not religious, you cant deny the karma. By every metric imaginable, this country is sliding down the road to ruin. I believe 50 million dead fetuses has a great deal to do with that.

That's 50 million workers and wage earners lost. Most of these people would have been low wage earners. Our economy has always and will always depend on these people to fill a vital role.

So instead of 50 million american low wage earners, we say ok lets just kill them because we dont want to "waste" so much of our lives raising children. Do you realize that ONLY someone brainwashed by consumerism would ever believe something like that? Killing off your own child just because having a baby would force you to cut down on your orgy of consumption? HA dont even pretend like that isnt the #1 cause of most abortions. Women want to shop shop shop, and not for maternity clothes. What a joke, I wish for one moment you could see how pathetic that is, and what it means for a country when so many of its citizens think that way. Life is more precious than some stupid consumer item, and if you weren't totally brainwashed you'd understand that.

And here's the real kicker. We kill off our own offspring by the millions, then we sit back and let Mexico send us the required replacement workforce. And we outsource the rest to Asia. Isnt that just incredibly stupid?? YES. Either you realize that the people pushing abortion are out to destroy this country, or sit back and let it be destroyed. It's really simple isnt it?

I can assure you that your choice to kill your baby will not make a positive difference in any way. It will not prevent the next Katrina and it will not lower the price of oil by even 0.01 cents. All it does is weaken a nation. Morally, economically, strategically.

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» Abortion was RIGHT for me! Posted by: rjgwood
» Please! Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Please! Posted by: Ruby
» Where to begin... Posted by: stevewilkesuk
» contradiction Posted by: Ames
» Abortion IS what ? Posted by: zipper696
» abortion is not Posted by: undrgrndgirl
Until you know the reason...
Posted by: Pintado_Petrel on Jan 9, 2008 10:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until you know the reason a woman goes into a clinic to have an abortion, can you even guess why she made the decision she did? Was she your stereotypical stupid (or uneducated) college student, or a middle-aged housewife whose husband was cheating on her AND about to lose his job, or too poor to be able to afford both the OB/GYN care AND another child, or just too physically frail to be able to complete another pregnancy and delivery? All of those situations are from women I personally have encountered over my life. I'm going to make a big assumption here...that if a woman decides to have an abortion, that she has a whole bunch of options, all of which are bad, and that for that woman at that time it is the best possible option.

I really wish we could get some politico-folks who had an unemotional, pragmatic approach to reproductive and child-rearing issues...birth control, abortion, adoption, foster care, the whole gamut. Unfortunately, it is such an emotion-charged issue that I, like the author, have difficulty trying to inject nuance and cold hard reason into the discussion. Do we as a society want to wind up like Ireland, where a woman has to be declared clinically suicidal in order to be given permission to abort by law (http://tinyurl.com/2ujr2j)? Or like China, where forced abortion and forced sterilization occur? That is what comes of having only black and white in a grey issue.

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Society of Free Traders in Pennsylvania
Posted by: Chaos Inc. on Jan 9, 2008 11:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If a woman does not have the right to choose because of the notion that the un-born some how have rights; then the moment that the un-born become the born, that individual becomes just another person without rights.

Pro Choice is not anti-life; it is pro individual constitutional rights to freedom of conscious, a God given Right.

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» RE: Opinion vs fact Posted by: luckypuck
» RE: Opinion vs fact Posted by: Chaos Inc.
Follower of Warrior Woman
Posted by: lynned2002 on Jan 9, 2008 11:26 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This letter is beautiful. Thank you. I have been trying to articulate this to my daughter in so many ways because she just doesn't get it. She has no idea how things were before women were in control of their destiny. I am going to send her your letter.

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» RE: Follower of Warrior Woman Posted by: warrior woman
Arguing Faith
Posted by: BluTexan on Jan 9, 2008 11:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My experience in talks with people on this subject is that almost always "prolife" opinion seems to have been formed in parallel with religious doctrine. Trying to convince someone that a viable opinion counter to the one they already hold is useless. They hold their opinion as a matter of Faith, and faith cannot be reasoned with, because religious faith is without reason. Hence, it is like arguing with a wall. No good can come of it.

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» RE: Arguing Faith Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Arguing Faith Posted by: morticia
Abortion is selfish
Posted by: suprmark on Jan 9, 2008 11:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It, like everything else, lies on a spectrum of morality, but in the end if you are having one to save your life, prevent you from a daily reminder of a rape, maintain a certain standard of living, prevent unflattering changes to your body appearance, or method of birth control, it is all about you. Not only that, but your perception of when life, or independent life, starts is vital to the decision you make. And since morality is often the antithesis of selfishness, the abortion debate will continue to rage until someone can conclusively prove when 'life' begins.

As an aside I am pro-choice, but find it quite ironic that many of the same people who complain how materialistic our society is believe career advancement is a good reason to have an abortion.

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» Lots of things are selfish Posted by: LeeAnnG
» You say selfish, I say WISE Posted by: rjgwood
Opinion vs. fact
Posted by: luckypuck on Jan 9, 2008 12:09 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe a fetus is a living thing. I don't believe it is yet a human being. This belief is not based on any verifiable, concrete evidence. All beliefs are opinions. One person’s opinion is no better than another person’s opinion, therefore no single opinion, no matter how many people hold that opinion, should prevail over the others. If no single opinion can prevail, it is only for the individual person to choose which opinion to follow.

Government entities are based firmly on the rule of law. The rule of law requires indisputable evidence to determine the truth of an issue beyond a shadow of doubt. As long as there is no verifiable, concrete evidence, there is doubt. As long as there is doubt, the government may not create a law that ignores or sets aside that doubt. Before any law is proposed, there must be a clear and compelling reason for proposing it (I am aware that many laws are passed in spite of this requirement). A clear and compelling reason must be based on facts, which again is evidence that is verifiable and concrete.

If the government has no compelling reason, no concrete evidence, it is enjoined from creating legislation. In the absence of evidence, the government may not usurp the power of individual citizens to make choices for themselves. That is what is meant by government of the people, by the people and for the people.

I believe a fetus is a living thing, not yet a human being. If I was counseling a woman seeking an abortion and she asked me my opinion, I would tell it to her if I thought it would be helpful. But I also would tell her all the other options available and that only she could make the right decision for herself. That’s what a democracy requires.

Our democracy also requires the separation of church and state. This issue is primarily one based in religious notions of sin, ensoulment and religionists’ irrational (sometimes hysterical), Puritanical view of human sexuality. None of this may be used to create laws. None of this may be offered as reasons to take away the individual citizen’s right to choose.

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» RE: Opinion vs. fact Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Sperm vs. egg Posted by: luckypuck
Fetus and child are NOT the same
Posted by: redceres on Jan 9, 2008 12:12 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay, I'll put it this way: if you were offered "Sophie's Choice"--let's say, in this case, to save the life of your living four-year-old son/daughter or the "baby" in your womb, would you have a difficult time making that choice? I'm not asking if you would hate being forced to decide--I'm asking if the decision itself would be hard.

In the moment of truth, would the "baby" in your womb--regardless of whether it's the size of a grain of rice or near delivery--be equal in your eyes to your living, breathing child?

A fetus and a child are NOT the same.

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I switched in college...
Posted by: no1kstate on Jan 9, 2008 12:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...after intro to women's studies. I mean to say, that class didn't cause the switch. It opened my mind, but wasn't the impetus. Though, I do think it's important to note that most anti-abortion language/history is rooted in misogyny; the most ardent pro-birth advocates seem to be white men who've never experienced a life with restricted options.

To be sure, I don't like abortion. Not because of abortion in and of itself, but because of the circumstances that occur that lead to the decision to have an abortion, which pro-birth advocates don't seem to have a problem with.

As for the language to use to include more people, I'm not sure I can help. All I know is that even when I was anti-abortion, I dare not make that decision for someone else. Even if someone's looking to protect the baby, I just can't force a woman to carry a child she doesn't want to carry.

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abortion hurts the feminist movement
Posted by: cancer75 on Jan 9, 2008 12:47 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
morally, i think abortion is wrong. as a feminist, abortion really bothers me. and i was highly offended by the comment that asked why pro-lifers don't march against war or push for environmentalism. i do all of that, and much more.

if a woman thought abortion was morally wrong, but chose to get one anyway, i'd bet her reason would come down to the man who impregnated her not wanting the baby. i can't imagine being a single mother. i would be a basket case as a single mother, so i can see why a woman without emotional and financial support would think abortion was her only option. there are so many pressures that can easily cause a woman to think abortion is the "right" option for her. our society is not friendly to the nature of a woman. but sadly, it is a bit of insanity to abort a child. abortion doesn't occur in nature.

as a feminist, i resented that men i dated thought i was ridiculous for saying i wouldn't get an abortion if they were to get me pregnant. being responsible about my reproductive potential, i demanded that the men i had sex with wear a condom. i can't tell you how many of them whined about having to do so - and i imagine these would have been the same men who would throw money at me if i were to get pregnant and say "get an abortion."

a frequent conversion from pro-choice to pro-life comes after a woman gets an abortion. my sister volunteers along side 3 of these women at a local pregnancy aid center. pro-choice feminists need to realize that being against abortion can accompany an ultra-feminist perspective. why should women have to be like men? should we not expect men to take precautions against unwanted pregnancy? and if it should occur, is it unreasonable to expect support from the man throughout the pregnancy? adoption is a fine option. a healthy, drug free baby is definitely in demand these days - often by women who can't bear their own children b/c of previous abortions.

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short story
Posted by: walldodger1969 on Jan 9, 2008 1:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A young church couple "had" to get married (he going on the service ,she still under her fathers medical plan.They waited til after the baby was born to get married. In their church a blue or pink flower was shown at the pulpit to signify the "blessed event". Folks that picketed clinics,thought the minister shouldn't say anything ...cause it would send the "wrong" message about premarital sex,and other kids might think it all right .

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» short story, part deux Posted by: rjgwood
If abortion is murder, one in four women should be on death row
Posted by: sarahk on Jan 9, 2008 1:15 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whether you are pro-women's healthcare or anti-women's healthcare, it is important to realize that 1 in 4 women in the US have had an abortion. Unfortunantly, this is a much higher rate than Europe--but a lower rate than some poor African countries. Next time you are at church, at work, at your family reunion, take a look at the women you like and love and think about this. These women are in your family and community, and they (most likely) are God-fearing Christians, and most have kept their abortions secret. The reasons for abortion is complex; life is complex; human reproduction is especially complex.

Also, it is very instructive to read about the history of childbirth and abortion. Women in the US didn't start suddenly having abortions after 1972 legalization--they suddenly started having safe abortions. It is very hard to figure out how many abortions were occuring before legalization, but certainly enough so that every major city hospital needed a special ward to deal with all the women suffering from infections, and/or perforations due to self-induced abortions. The stories of these women are especially sad as they were treated like criminals even if they were dying. The police procedure was to question them to try to get the name of the abortionist--even denying them pain medication to do so.

Women seem to have always had a need for abortions for a variety of complex reasons, and this need often comes into conflict with govenment and/or religious powers. Part of the original Hippocratic oath is that you will deny the request of your woman patient for an aborticide. (The Greeks were not concerned with the morality of abortion as we are, but with protecting a male citizen's property rights to the developing baby.)
Whether legal or illegal, abortions have been and will always be an important part of women's healthcare. The only question for us in the US is how safe and legal do we want abortions to be?

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I'm not "pro-choice...."
Posted by: morticia on Jan 9, 2008 1:35 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...I'm "pro-keep-abortion-safe-and-legal." When anyone says he or she is "opposed" to abortion, they might as well be saying that they are "opposed" to thunderstorms, waves washing up on the beach or teenage boys masturbating. 100 years of prohibition in the U.S. proved beyond any doubt that making abortion illegal does not end abortion; it drives it underground, where it becomes dirty and dangerous, and women follow, whether we are "opposed" to abortion or not, and whether we approve or not. This is simply a fact. Abortion was not invented in 1973. When abortion is illegal, women have illegal abortions, and illegal abortion is very bad for women. When a politician or an ordinary citizen says he or she favors an abortion "ban," what this translates to is that they are willing to send women back to the illegal abortionist. Either those saying they favor an abortion "ban" have bought into extant historical revisionism which says that illegal abortion wasn't so bad, that the horror tales are urban legend, mere exaggeration, or else they know how bad it actually was and consider it appropriate punishment for women who abort. Arguments about "rights" and whether or not a fetus is "human" are futile, irrelevant and a snare. The question needs to be "framed" in an entirely different way: Are you willing to send women back to the illegal abortionist? Because that's where they'll go, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, and whether we like it or not, if it's recriminalized.

Nature, through millions of years of evolution in a rigorous biosphere, installed the sex drive in our brains and powered it up to specifically short-circuit "judgment" and "restraint" and such, almost exactly like a spell or a drug. Nature wants one thing, and one thing only, and that's for sperm and egg to meet, as often as possible and wherever and whenever possible, and uses us to that end. This is why there are almost 7 billion of us on the planet. Whether this process is in line with our personal desires is strictly a matter of chance, but of no concern at all to nature. This is why women have abortions, whether it's legal or illegal and whether we approve or don't approve. Making it illegal and dangerous is to punish women in a crude, dirty, savage barbaric way for being human.

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» P.S. Posted by: morticia
» Er, uh, I mean.... Posted by: morticia
the vatican
Posted by: davidg on Jan 9, 2008 6:09 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If men got pregnant, the Pope would open free clinices in the Vatican.

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» RE: the vatican Posted by: morticia
» RE: the vatican Posted by: data23
A challenge to pro-lifers
Posted by: zipper696 on Jan 9, 2008 8:55 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your eternal love for the unborn child needs to be translated into positive action.
I suggest each one of you tithe 10% of your income to support and educate an unwanted child - this tithe to last until the child's 18th birthday.
Of course you can tithe MORE - I mean, it's only money after all....

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» RE: A challenge to pro-lifers Posted by: Realliberal87
jmark
Posted by: jmark on Jan 9, 2008 9:49 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most illuminating aspect of your article is that you use the words "I", "me" and "my" 87 times...but not once do you ever refer to the baby, child, boy, girl...or even fetus.

This points to the central selfishness of the pro-abortion mindset.

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UNDERSTANDING LIFE
Posted by: Saitia on Jan 10, 2008 9:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abortion has always been, and will always be, primitive population control.
The modern problems around the morality and scientific proof of whether or not you're killing a real "person" or not will continue to cause conflict and debate; but when we die, certain things are going to happen that will resolve all such arguments. Here are some thoughts for your consideration.

Regardless of all the ethical and moral problems surrounding abortion, each generation now tends to eliminate from the reproductive stream those individuals in whom parental instinct is insufficiently strong to insure the procreation of children; the prospective parents of the next generation. Our ancient forefathers and mothers exposed undesired children to die; today, we simply refuse to bear them; one way or another.

It should shock no one that the God of Love, the Creator of all things and beings, values the life of every personality, whether or not we as individuals learn to do so. We may temporarily decide the fate of an unborn child through abortion, but there are procedures in place and functioning that ensure every potential child of our Creator survives, to decide for themselves whether or not they will accept or reject the gift of eternal life.

When you re-awaken in a new body on the next world, you, and the other parent of your child, or children, will be re-acquainted with your offspring, as NO aborted or deceased potential human life is ever lost; including all children who die before being indwelt by Spirit, the average age of this occurrence being around six years of age. All these little ones are repersonalized concomitant with the arrival of either one of their parents to the next world.

Part of our ignorance around abortion stems from the lack of understanding of the purpose of our individual universe existence. Raising children, the parental experience, the relationship of child and parent, is fundamental to the essential concept of the Universal Father and his universe children. Thus such an experience becomes indispensable to the experiential training of all mortal survivors.

Ultimately, it is our motives that determine our destiny, and that of our children, unborn though they may be. If at least one parent survives this life, so do your unborn; if neither of you do, neither will they.

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» RE: UNDERSTANDING LIFE Posted by: morticia
» RE: UNDERSTANDING LIFE Posted by: Saitia
» RE: UNDERSTANDING LIFE Posted by: morticia
The progressives are divided
Posted by: Upset on Jan 10, 2008 12:11 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If nothing else, this discussion proves that the progressives are divided on the issue. And for the most part, conservatives are united around the issue. The progressives have surrounded the issue in apolegetic shame. The conserviatves have surrounded their pro-fmaily position in enthusiastic pride.
Who is going to win?

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» No "apologetic shame" here. Posted by: morticia
» RE: No "apologetic shame" here. Posted by: luckypuck
» And furthermore, Upset... Posted by: morticia
» RE: And furthermore, Upset... Posted by: luckypuck
RE: Abortion is selfish - sometimes it is the less selfish option...
Posted by: tpurplesage on Jan 10, 2008 9:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You say that is it selfish to "prevent you from a daily reminder of a rape". I knew a woman who, due to her religion, kept her child from a rape. It was the height of selfishness. She has treated that poor boy terribly since the day he was born. She can stand on the "righteousness" of her action, but she has destroyed that child's chance of a normal life. If he is lucky he will survive without becoming a drug addict or an abuser as his rapist father was. But her selfish decision created a terrible situation and a horrible life condition for her son.

I firmly believe she should have aborted him when he was no more than a cluster of cells. It would have been more kind.

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Murder is always Wrong!
Posted by: Realliberal87 on Jan 11, 2008 1:51 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is absolutely NO justification for murdering babies,no matter what.

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» RE: Murder is always Wrong! Posted by: morticia
» RE: Murder is always Wrong! Posted by: ConNoMore
» RE: Murder is always Wrong! Posted by: morticia
actual experience with abortion clinic
Posted by: mommyjayn on Jan 14, 2008 2:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I was 22, I found myself pregnant. I didn't want to be. I considered an abortion and called a large abortion provider in Portland, Oregon. I told them I was considering an abortion, but was unsure. The guy on the phone asked my situation. I told him I was single and no longer involved with the father. He said, "Get rid of it, Hon." He then told me the abortion would be $2000 and I would need to make full payment before the abortion could take place. He set an appointment for me in three days. I asked if I would be able to talk to someone first because I was scared. I'd never had any kind of surgery. He laughed and said that not to think of it as surgery, more like a wart being removed. I was still scared, but I thought I had no other choice

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the rest of the story
Posted by: mommyjayn on Jan 14, 2008 2:58 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I went out to dinner that night, I saw a crises pregnancy center. I stopped in. A woman named Zena greeted me and asked how she could help. I told her I was having an abortion but was scared. She answered all my questions w/o judging. She then asked why I needed and abortion. I told her: single, no family support, just beginning my career. She asked me, "what if those problems could be solved would you want to keep your baby? I said no. She asked about giving it up for adoption. I said no. She said ok. What could she do for me today? I told her nothing and left. The next day I had another question so I called her. She told me yes I would need someone to drive me after. Then she offered to do it. I asked why. She said because no matter what I decided, she wanted to be there to help me. I hung up the phone and cried. Two days later instead of ending my pregnancy, I was in a OB's office having my 1st prenatal check, paid for by the center. Throughout the duration of my pregnancy until I moved when my son was 6 months old Zena was a nearly daily part of my life. Yes, I got diapers, clothes, and bottles. And when my car needed licensed and I was broke, Zena handed me the money. When my car broke down, her husband fixed. The center paid my rent for a couple of months so I could take time off after my son was born. And when he was born, you never saw such a party! It is now 19 years later. I haven't seen Zena for about 10 years, but I still hear from her. Since then I have met many people from many different crises centers. And while I hesitate to say that Zena is not unique because of what she means to me, I have seen the same level of care everywhere. Zena saved my son's life and whenever I think of it, I am awed by how close I came to not knowing this wonderful person. You could say that I was able to make my CHOICE. I would agree with you. However, that choice was made when I lay down and had sex with my boyfriend. Sex is the mechanism for getting pregnant. So the time to choose is then, there are a lot of methods: the pill, condom, abstention. It does take maturity to take responsibility for our own bodies rather than making our children pay the price for our selfishness. (And I don't want to hear the old rape lie. Rape accounts for less that 2% of all abortions - look it up.)
If, as women, we really are strong and intelligent and compassionate and wise, let's start to act like it.

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