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Rights and Liberties

In Defense of Ron Paul*

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted November 29, 2007.


*Ron Paul's a wingnut, yes, but he's an anti-empire, anti-war wingnut who doesn't believe the president should be king.
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Ron Paul has arrived, thanks in large part to the unrivaled intensity of his supporters. In the weeks since his dedicated -- some say obsessive -- online army organized a "money bomb" that delivered over $4 million in a single day to Paul's war chest, his quixotic campaign has gotten a boatload of media attention. It is officially the quirky, nontraditional candidate story of the 2008 race. If the campaign pulls off the $10 million "tea party" planned for Dec. 16, the spotlight on Paul will get hotter still.

With that attention comes a new level of scrutiny, as one would expect. But most of the media's analyses don't put the Paul "sensation" into a larger context. Often missing is the degree to which Paul's popularity is related to Washington's structural inability to handle the issues most important to American voters -- a flaw that extends to the corporate media as well. Lacking that context, the criticism flung at the Paul campaign is superficial and distracting.

Progressive bloggers have started to take notice of the insurgent campaign as well, and there's been a spasm of critical posts slicing and dicing the Ron Paul experience. Unfortunately, too many of them have focused not on Paul's record, his beliefs or why he's become such a phenomenon in the race for the White House, but on his supporters, who include a nasty little assortment of feverish nativists, half-baked ultranationalists, white supremacists, New World Order conspiracy theorists, etc., in addition to the (no doubt far more numerous) ordinary, pissed-off patriotic Americans who are attracted to his candidacy.

So we've recently discovered that Ron Paul is backed by: people minting their own "cuckoo bananas money" and members of an identity theft ring. We've learned that "Paul has the support of David Duke" and Stormfront has a YouTube audio commercial up supporting Paul. Also supporting him are the "Patriot" movement "nutjobs with guns and anti-government leanings" who were made famous by homegrown terrorist Timothy McVeigh. He's loved by the owner of a Nevada whorehouse and has even gotten the nod from Hutton Gibson, Mel's wingnut father and the man who taught him everything he ever needed to know about those damn Jews.

To which I can only say: OK, folks, we get it. If we accept guilt by association as a reasonable political argument, then Paul is as guilty as they come.

But not directly so. As the Wall Street Journal pointed out:

The Paul campaign has a hands-off approach when it comes to supporters' activities and political backgrounds. While grateful for the money, aides insist they aren't responsible for what supporters do online. "We don't know who a lot of these people are," says Jesse Benton, a campaign spokesman … "Sometimes Ron Paul supporters get a little overpassionate and maybe a little more shrill than what some might like," Mr. Benton says.
Of course, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and many of the bloggers making hay out of Paul's less savory supporters are happy to slam what the Clintons famously called the "politics of personal destruction" -- the tactic, popular on the right, of turning various public figures who support Democrats into pernicious liberal strawmen whose excesses are supposedly evidence of how out of touch progressives are.

But more than that, the typical analysis misses the fundamental dynamic driving Paul's popularity. His campaign occupies that political space where right- and left-populism intersect, and that space exists only because there are significant areas of national policy where neither of the two parties, nor any of the "mainstream" candidates, have shown any willingness to represent their constituents.

Polls show that a majority of Americans want a withdrawal from Iraq, but none of the leading candidates are calling for a complete pull-out. Three-quarters of Americans oppose a permanent military presence there, yet the same number believe that the United States would not withdraw even if asked by the Iraqi "government." A majority oppose the White House's claim that it can torture whom it likes, but the Democrat-controlled Congress confirmed an attorney general who wouldn't say that water-boarding -- prosecuted as torture by military courts since the Spanish-American War -- is illegal. More Americans think K Street's "trade" deals hurt Americans than believe they help, but among the first acts of the new Congress was to strike a new "grand bargain" with Bush on trade. Voters want to see movement on healthcare, immigration, retirement security and job outsourcing, and on all of these issues the Big Money candidates in both parties, with the possible exception of John Edwards, either stand moot or offer fluffy platitudes about change while ferociously defending the status quo.

Ron Paul is a reactionary, yes, but he speaks to these and other ignored issues -- speaks to voters' growing disenfranchisement and lack of trust in government, to their fears and insecurities about the future -- in a way that the rest of the field won't, and any analysis of the Ron Paul phenomenon that doesn't acknowledge that reality misses the heart of the story.

Stick to the record

Ron Paul is running for president, and I'm not suggesting that he's somehow above criticism -- an idea that Paul's supporters often seem to embrace. His is a brand of politics well outside the American mainstream, and that's revealed, clearly, in his legislative record. That record, and Ron Paul's governing philosophy, provide more than enough grist for the critical mill -- there's no need to indulge in cheap shots.

Paul's libertarian impulses don't appear to extend to the issue of reproductive choice -- he's introduced four bills, including a Constitutional amendment, defining human life as beginning with conception. That doesn't make him a run-of-the-mill, anti-choice conservative; the L.A. Times described the measure as part of an aggressive tactic "which could effectively outlaw all abortions and some birth control methods."
Some activists say they are fed up with incremental steps -- and are not interested in waiting years, or possibly decades, for a more conservative court to revisit Roe. Instead, they are out to change the legal status of embryos in hopes of forcing the Supreme Court to ban abortion.
"The concept that we're going to elect judges who will change everything has failed," said Brian Rohrbough, a former president of Colorado Right to Life. "The logical thing is to start with personhood. … It's the only legitimate tactic that does not involve a compromise."
The Times story noted that "every year since [Roe v. Wade], members of Congress have introduced a bill to [define human life as beginning with conception], but they never got anywhere." On several occasions, that member of Congress was none other than Dr. Ron Paul.

Paul's proposed a number of court-stripping measures, shutting the courthouse door to discrimination suits based on sexual discrimination; he's tried to prohibit the government from mandating a minimum wage; he's tried to repeal the Davis-Bacon Act, which guarantees that workers on federal projects be paid a prevailing wage, and the Copeland Act, which bars kick-backs on federal projects; he has proposed freezing Social Security benefit levels and making the program fully optional, which would effectively destroy it; he has opposed measures that promote more voter participation; he would repeal key parts of American anti-trust law, gutting it; he's tried to deauthorize most federal agencies' regulatory powers; he's tried to eliminate all affirmative action programs; he's proposed altering the 14th Amendment to prohibit the children of immigrants from gaining citizenship; he's proposed eliminating or gutting a variety of environmental legislation; he's tried to kill the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty and submitted legislation that would pull the United States out of the United Nations 12 different times; he has tried to eradicate the Department of Education, offered legislation to end federal involvement in educating kids; and he has proposed, at various times, the abolition of most taxes on wealth as well as income and the establishment of a flat tax. All of this is legislation that he not only supported, but proposed or co-sponsored.

There are also legitimate concerns about some ugly racist stereotypes that were included in a newsletter that Paul sent out in the early 1990s. Paul claims he didn't write the words, but they were included in a publication called The Ron Paul Political Report and his supporters' insistence that (a) he knew nothing about the content of The Ron Paul Political Report and (b) he shouldn't be held responsible for the contents of The Ron Paul Political Report ring hollow. (As a New Yorker myself, nobody can convince me that Rudolph Giuliani isn't the really hardcore racist in this race -- he's just a hell of a lot smoother about covering up the fact than are people like Paul.)

Paul says that he'd slash the size of government by 40 percent, a dramatic restructuring by any account. As I've written before, people may respond positively to the idea of limited government in the abstract, but when it comes to specifics most Americans love big government and most (though certainly not all) of what it does. They want a government that will educate their children and put out forest fires and make sure that big chemical companies aren't poisoning their water. They expect cheap student loans and meat inspections and smooth highways, and even the lowest of "low information" voters know they're not going to get that stuff from the private sector.

And it's here where Paul deserves some respect, even from his detractors. He does, after all, have the courage of his convictions. In an era when balanced pandering has become the highest of campaign arts, Paul, unlike the rest of his Republican brethren, is perfectly straightforward about his desire to roll back much of the 20th century. As blogger David Caspian put it: "The reality is: Ron Paul, though crazy, is consistently crazy. He is not trying to hide his batshit ideas, in fact he's running on them. And though they might not understand all of it, people like it."

Some of Paul's supporters insist that his stark, slash-and-burn anti-governmentalism and isolationism don't matter. As president, he'd still have a Congress to deal with, and the burden of actually having to govern would likely inject a note of pragmatism into Paul's ideology. It's a unique argument: Ignore my candidate's more extreme ideas because they'll never get past Congress. The problem is that ideology matters -- it helps guide every decision one makes in office -- and the president of the United States of America is, as most people grasp, a pretty powerful person.

Of course, that's an academic discussion. Regardless of his supporters' passion or his ability to raise funds online, Paul has as much chance of winning the Republican nomination in 2008 as the average gay Mexican pornographer. He is, after all, running on an anti-war, anti-"free trade" and pro-civil liberties platform in a Republican primary. Add to that a media that's unable to seriously cover political beliefs that fall outside the narrow discourse of mainstream Republican versus Democratic food fights, and it's clear that Paul will not be leading his party in 2008.

And while he's no threat, he's helped disrupt the GOP's nomination process, adding more volatility to the polls and more issues to the debate. Plus he's made things a hell of a lot more interesting on the GOP side.

While I would never suggest reaching out to the white power movement, many of Paul's supporters are simply disenfranchised nonvoters who have been animated, many for the first time in years, by his campaign, and that's not a bad thing in a nominal democracy where complacency rules.

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Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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No, he's not a wingnut, he's wrong.
Posted by: Jackrabbit on Nov 29, 2007 12:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't dismiss him because he is a fringe type candidate that appeals to everyone outside the beltway, dismiss him because he wants to get rid of every social program the government supports.

I'm surprised the rapeublicans are not giving him more support considering he wants to undo everything FDR put into place.

People who want a real alternative need to get turned on to Dennis Kucinich, the only honest politician out there.

» Ron Paul is a Fake !! Posted by: Radical Priest
» RE: Ron Paul is a Fake !! Posted by: carcinoid112
Bryce
Posted by: truthnews on Nov 29, 2007 12:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ron Paul raised $4.2 million on Nov. 5, the money bomb day. He raised nearly $2 mil by 10 a.m. that Monday morning.

» RE: Bryce - Does anybody know Posted by: UnEasyOne
Another fine article, Joshua
Posted by: vox persona on Nov 29, 2007 12:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ron Paul just represents the disgust/disenchantment/disenfranchisement/disdain the electorate has in our 'leaders'. There is no way many would like him so much if every policy he's espoused actually became law. He would gore almost every ox in the stable. Libertarianism is attractive as a concept when making an anti-establishment statement, but for practical reasons his extreme style would not fly. Looking past the fact that he'd never make it through a traditionally right wing primary process, and having said all that, I'd still vote for him over any other Pug....as a protest vote like I've been doing all my life. As long as there was still a Democratic Congress and Senate to keep him in check. I may write him in if Hillary is the nominee. It would be interesting to see a Unity ticket of the two that don't stand a chance in their party's primaries.....Kucinich/Paul (in that order). Then we would see the disgruntled come out en masse to cast that protest vote....and maybe even WIN. But that may have the Nader effect, and elect another RePug. Fasten your seatbelts....it's going to be an interesting primary season. And with both sides disappointed in their horses, it may very well also be two interesting conventions. Stay tuned....(like you were going anywhere).

» RE: Another fine article, Joshua Posted by: Democritus
» Credit where it is due Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Holland for President! Posted by: Ripcord
Why I Would Never Support Ron Paul
Posted by: Dallas Suz on Nov 29, 2007 1:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would never support Ron Paul because he is anti-choice. I support women's unrestricted access top abortion. I support Nationalized Health Insurance. I support government regulation of industry, banking and the environment.

To me he is just another Republican't. Libertarians want to be able to screw people over without restrictions.

Do not be taken in by him he is just another Reich Winger

» RE: Clear thinking needed Posted by: cyberben3d
» Right On Suz! Posted by: jackyD
I want a trio...
Posted by: chomsky on Nov 29, 2007 1:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I want a trio:
- Dennis Kucinich
- Ron Paul
- Mike Gravel

» RE: I want a trio... Posted by: progressive farmer ME
» Why not a duo? Posted by: dustdevil
Uninformed...?
Posted by: andyp2000 on Nov 29, 2007 1:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That was really a defense - it seems to me that people are trying to 'defend' him in order to attack him. He does not propose isolationst foreign policy. How many times do you want people to repeat it?

Because most americans love big government, most of the republican party runs on lower taxes and smaller government...right. Ok, no problem with that.

Paul's supporters tend to look up why Paul has voted for certain things. After learning about his position they often tend to support it. Let's look at that:
- against courts ruling against discrimination in private sector - because part of the civil liberties IS right to discriminate. You cannot run on pro-civil-liberties platform and be FOR anti-discrimination laws (those that ban discrimination in private sector)
- anti-affirmative action - that MEANS anti-racism
- anti-minimum wage - minimum wage causes higher unemployment, long-term unemployment - unexperienced people face problems getting employment. Anyway, it seems to me unconstitutional
- destroying SS - I thought that SS was working in FUNDING regime - that means that the funds should be there because Paul didn't vote to spend them...except the others did. Anyway, it's an interesting reason to criticize somone's position on the ground that greater civil liberties would destroy fraudulent government ponzi-scheme program. If you looked deeper at paul's position, you would have found out that he wants to finance it from the money saved in military. Actually, he is the only one who proposed a sensible plan to save the social security in the short term and reforming (i.e. destroying) it in the long term
- against anti-trust law - this law was predominantly used as a 'legal' way to harm successful competitors.
- out of UN - pro-american sovereignity
- anti-department of eduction - actually means pro-education
- anti preventive mental screening of kids...reminds me of fascism
- for lower taxes...uhhh... how is that a problem?

It would be very nice if the auther tried to understand Paul's reasoning behind these position. Paul makes great service of popularizing ideas that are unpopular however reasonable they might be. Criticizing him from the point of view of author's view of world without looking at Paul's reasoning seems to be more bad journalism than good one.

» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: andyp2000
» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: benzene
» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: andyp2000
» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: Guy Montag
» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: andyp2000
» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: donneek
» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Minimum wage Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Minimum wage Posted by: andyp2000
» RE: Uninformed...? Posted by: oregoncharles
» Dream on..... Posted by: rocketman
Libertarianism
Posted by: andyp2000 on Nov 29, 2007 1:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Libertarianism is attractive as a concept when making an anti-establishment statement, but for practical reasons his extreme style would not fly."

I have heard this in communist countries just before communism collapsed: Democracy is an attractive as a concept of making anti-establishment statement, but for practical reasons...

I don't understand what such an argument means. It means that Americans are so stupid that they would not vote for a libertarian program however practical that might be? Or that libertarianism is impractical however practical it is - according to many economists..?

» RE: Libertarianism Posted by: constitution, what constitution
» RE: Libertarianism Posted by: nochicagoboys
Shaky
Posted by: Monitor523 on Nov 29, 2007 2:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There may be good arguments against Ron Paul's positions, but a lot of what's given here are not examples of them. For example: you say Americans like small government in the abstract, but regarding particular policies, they like what big government programs do. A parallel argument says that people might want to quit smoking/drinking/eating poorly, but when it comes to individual decisions at specific moments, they keep choosing differently. This isn't an argument against quitting smoking or eating more veggies, though - if anything, it's an argument that shorter-term concerns or desires often trump reasoned positions.

The idea that services currently provided by government can't be provided by "the private sector" seem to be based on a false dichotomy between the state and corporations. One could argue in this way that "the private sector" (meaning big corporations) can't be relied on to raise our children, and therefore we should entrust them to the state. If the other services mentioned aren't in a similar category, someone needs to make (or at least link to) the case for that position.

I'm not suggesting that everyone should have to defend every element of their political philosophy every time they open their mouths... I do think that the advantage of having someone like Paul running so visibly for office and having the kinds of successes he's having is that these issues are now available for political debate. But it seems like positions on them have ossified so firmly that the debate (on both sides) amounts to not much more than name-calling and appeals to ideology.

Pity, really. That principles behind positions are rarely discussed anymore is one reason America continues to degenerate.

» RE: Shaky Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Shaky Posted by: andyp2000
» RE: Shaky Posted by: andyp2000
» RE: Shaky Posted by: cyberben3d
» RE: Shaky Posted by: Thucy
» RE: Shaky Posted by: Thucy
» RE: Shaky Posted by: Monitor523
» RE: Shaky Posted by: Monitor523
» You made a point Posted by: swissliberal
Legitimate cause of concern and consternation.
Posted by: talkville on Nov 29, 2007 2:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having lived many years ago in the part of Texas which launched Ron Paul, it's definitely worth digging, and digging very deeply into his politics and convictions. This person is as near a particular kind of "right" anarchism and wishes almost literally to abolish the State. His social views and background bear intense scrutiny as well. The 'ground-swell' surrounding his bid is not to be taken as positive by any means or measure. One individual in congress is not exactly the same as one individual in the executive branch -- especially these days!

Anti-state and small-state rhetoric and arguments have their place. This guy has the animus to abolish; he would replace 'government' there-by by.... what? Oh, let's see Corporations and "The Market" self-regulating and 'just' and oh so humane!

Especially given the temper, tempo, tone and mood in these times, all I can say is that the "populism" being aroused around this candidate is very far from re-assuring.

I'll only volunteer my single, individual and DEMOCRATIC opinion regarding this candidate: all things considered, no way.

» RE: Jefferson never said it Posted by: cyberben3d
Why Ron Paul is a Dangerous Lunatic
Posted by: davescott on Nov 29, 2007 3:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's environmental mag Grist magazine on Paul:
"Ron Paul.Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul doesn't spend much time talking about the environment; when he does address the issue, it's usually to say that our land, air, and water would be in better shape if the government butted out and let the free-market, private-property system run its course." The notion that we'd be better off letting Exxon or the mining and timber industries do as they please is flat-out moronic. Libertarians like Paul don't deal with the reality that the federal governemnt is the ONLY potential check on "free market" corporations running amok. Global warming is the worst example I can imagine of the failure of free markets to protect us from "external costs" like impacts on health, wildife and the Earth.

Remember George Wallace?
Posted by: Urstrly on Nov 29, 2007 3:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I was willing to hear the case made that Ron Paul may be good for the Republican Party, I have to disagree with Holland that Congress would never pass any of his crazy proposals; look what Congress has done since 9/11!

Anyone who proposes stripping women completely of reproductive freedom and gives unchallenged haven to white supremacists is dangerous and should not be ignored. George Wallace gained a lot of support from this same crowd in 1968, and had he not been shot, he posed a serious threat to the hard-won battles of the civil rights movement. As it turned out, he still sucked off votes from Hubert Humphrey and helped elect Richard Nixon.

» Just Remember Posted by: uluro
» RE: emember George Wallace? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: emember George Wallace? Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: death by starvation Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: emember George Wallace? Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: emember George Wallace? Posted by: Turiye
Another of Alternets Irrelevant articles
Posted by: gdonald on Nov 29, 2007 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talk about Whack jobs, nut heads and such. The author of this article is suffering from neurosis. Where does alternet find all the deranged who write so many of these feebleminded articles pretending to be so smart. Proves my point that this web site is for the mentally unstable and emotionally challenged. This is the ultra anti-government, ultra-supremicist website of them all. This person should be given an A for the most extreme form of creton logic.

» RE: Limbaugh/Rovian tactic Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Limbaugh/Rovian tactic Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Limbaugh/Rovian tactic Posted by: Turiye
» Again such entertainment Posted by: gdonald
» Hilarious Posted by: gdonald
» Creton: 'A' is for 'spellcheck' Posted by: eddie torres
» Thanks for falling for it Posted by: gdonald
Support For Ron Paul
Posted by: jackburns on Nov 29, 2007 4:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find Paul somewhat appealing. His position on favoring private property over the environment is troubling, but otherwise, what he says makes a lot of sense.

Philosophically, I'm an anarchist and really don't see the need for Washington or their "social" programs. People can do these things without governments in their own communities. And please don't tell me that people are too stupid and ignorant to govern themselves and have to be lead along like sheep. Bullshit. Anarchism is the only truly egalitarian option. We're not ready for it on a wide scale just yet, but little pocket of anarchism (grass roots democracy) are popping up all over. Cooperatives, employee owned companies, community associations, community gardens, etc.

Abortion? The GOP isn't going to get rid of abortion. This is all a ruse to get hard core Xian support. These GOP folks want to make sure when little Buffy gets knocked up by a black dude while at she's supposed to be studying at Sweetbriar and dating some good W&L frat boy, they can safely have it "taken care of."

I prefer Kucinich over everyone, but Ron Paul is a pretty smart man.

The bottom line is this. Nothing is going to change in this country, regardless of who wins, until someone addresses growth ad infinitum economics. You can't have infinite growth in a world of finite resources. And, it all requires militarism. So, even with Hilliary or Obama, or certainly a Repug, the beat will go on and on.

“The absorption of unemployment and the maintenance of an adequate rate of profit would thus require the the stimulation of demand on an even larger scale, thereby stimulating the rat race of the competitive struggle for existence through the multiplication of waste, planned obsolescence, parasitic and stupid jobs and services.” Herbert Marcuse, A Guerrilla War Against The Establishment

“There is no feature of history more sad, no phase of human nature more dismal, than that innate desire in a man’s heart to rule over his fellow men. This ambition has been the curse of the world.”-Sarah E.V. Emery, Imperialism In America

» RE: Support For Ron Paul Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Support For Ron Paul Posted by: jackburns
» RE: Support For Ron Paul Posted by: threecolors
» RE: Support For Ron Paul Posted by: Guy Montag
» RE: Support For Ron Paul Posted by: daniel1982
» Anarchists for Kucinich? Posted by: Monitor523
» Anarchists for Kucinich? Posted by: Monitor523
Rukidden
Posted by: okeydokey on Nov 29, 2007 4:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great defense of Ron Paul. I'm sure no one out there noticed the highly tongue in cheek arguments.

Well I won't defend Ron Paul for anything you said because it would be ridiculous, but I do have to mention a few things.

Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards never have recieved any money from known criminals.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have never had questionable supporters.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have never returned money once they found out it was from a group of people or a person that had a questionable reputation....wait thats incorrect.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have never tried to pass questionable legislation.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have never been on the "take".
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have never taken their whole paycheck for their jobs, or accepted any perks from their office.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have never recieved money from lobbyists.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have never gone on paid junkets.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have NEVER LIED TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards DIDN"T LIE STRAIGHT TO YOUR FACES LAST NIGHT IN THE GOP DEBATE.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards are all upstanding citizens who are looking out for your best interest.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards are not crazy, wingnut, neocon scum.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards are not in politics for their own benefit, they are there for the people!
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards always vote on policies that work for the people...ALL the people.
Romney,Rudy, Mccain, Thompson, Hillary, Obama, Edwards have never flip flopped on any issues in the past...or present.

» RE: hahahaha good post Posted by: kungfoofighterx
» Yes, Let's Compare Them All Posted by: bcgirl125
yet another BS pile
Posted by: skydog on Nov 29, 2007 5:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, can you hear the sucking sound of lips planted on the wrinkled posterior of an ObGyn running for president?? My my!

Here we go, leveling denigrating comments about what constitutes a superficial analysis, then fawning all over this economic Darwinist, paying only a token nod to what libertarianism really means at the end. You seem so eager to define for us what is or is not superficial, and then write some of the most superficial gobbledygook I've ever seen!

I have an idea for you, there, Mr. Holland. Why not write an article that ignores the obvious for which you invest so much column space, and focuses only on exposing Paul's factual positions on all the economic and social issues with which normal working Americans are confronted? Trade, jobs, food safety, health care reform, credit regulation, progressive taxation, Social Security, Medicare...the bread and butter issues that define daily life for people who have to work for a living.

Now, that would be novel to see in a media stream that is nothing but arduous of this perhaps most dangerous candidate on the rostrum, a true snake in anti-war clothing.

Just the facts. I realize you won't ever get a straight answer from his campaign, but it's your duty to then report that to us. Resist the instinct to bend to what you think is popular for a change and just write the truth. That's all I'm asking.

If Ron Paul supporters knew the truth, we wouldn't have this miraculous support that you're all slack-jawed and drooling on your shoes in amazement about. Just because the guy is good on the war doesn't mean he's good for America.

Just report it. The facts please. Don't you think that you owe that to the readers?

» RE: yet another BS pile Posted by: okeydokey
» RE: yet another BS pile Posted by: skydog
» RE: yet another BS pile Posted by: skydog
» RE: yet another BS pile Posted by: Thucy
» RE: yet another BS pile(?) Posted by: oregoncharles
Paul is not a libertarian
Posted by: ark on Nov 29, 2007 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That many persons who are members of the LP believe he is, only shows that the LP does not press its own Platform, and the rationales for them predicated by libertarian thought. Paul has stated positions directly oppositional to the following LP platform planks:

I.8 Reproductive Rights
I.9 Sexuality and Gender
IV.1 Immigration
III.1 Crime and Victimless Crime


In re Reproductive Rights: Paul has proposed a Constitutional Amendment that would define a fetus at conception to be a person. Understand what this means: a fetus becomes a US citizen at conception. Separate this from the pro and anti abortion movements, and just look at this from the perspective of a monstrously intrusive state. Any miscarriage would need be investigated for possible homicide and/or manslaughter. This could not be effectuated on a small state model, nor is it a nod to state's rights.

In re Sexuality and Gender: as the author mentioned, Paul just this year proposed a bill that would restrict federal access to persons who based their claims upon sexual orientation. This is not a proposed constitutional amendment, yet it would limit the reach of the 14th Amendment. It is an act of legislative overreach into the realm of the judiciary by a politician who claims he is loyal to the Constitution.

In re Immigration: The LP is specifically open border in their official policy statements. The only valid reason to impair a human's free ingress or egress at the nation's borders is for criminal acts or for highly contagious sicknesses. This position is justified in libertarian theory on both grounds of human liberty, and defense of the free market. There can be no free market when capital is free to move across international borders, but labor cannot. It places the collectivist business entities (corporations, partnerships etc) in a superior position to the individual human; and can not be justified by libertarian theory because of this.

In re Crime and Victimless Crime: all criminalisation of consensual sexual acts between adults is a type of victimless crime, and as such should be abhorrent to any libertarian. Paul has been silent about decriminalisation of all drug laws this campaign.

These are just a few of Paul's anti-libertarian policy stances; the easy ones to point out.

» it's about the 14th Posted by: ark
» if you return Posted by: ark
If Ron Paul were elected President...
Posted by: Ricki on Nov 29, 2007 5:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... Congress would hold him in check???

Like it holds Bush in check???

Haha, haha, haha, .....

It's About the Environment, Stupid
Posted by: Moe Snodgrass on Nov 29, 2007 5:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Check RP's website. No mention of environment at all. Absent. RP would devastate the environment worse than the Reagans, Bushes (x2), and Clintons (x1 or 2) put together.

Ron Paul:Errand boy of the Plutocracy and Weenie
Posted by: robchapman on Nov 29, 2007 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ron Paul defend American liberty?

What a joke- this could only occur in a country where money talking drowns out all other voices.

Ron Paul wants to eliminate the last shreds of protection that the constitution and law providees for Americans.

Ron Paul wants to replace the idea that government could have a positive role in protecting our rights with a culture of every man for himself.

Without the government we would right to gang dominated feudalism.

» RE: on Paul Posted by: Stolz25
Thanks Josh for pointing out the real dangers of Ron Paul
Posted by: yellow on Nov 29, 2007 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Paul is a wingnut and a true reactionary. His goldbuggery would lead us to a depression. His social positions which are just as impervious to actual reality are in line with his reactionary dogma. I am pleasantly suprised to see how many Alternet Readers agree with your analysis and how the wingnut defense of Ron Paul on this thread is quite weak. But we must give it time. I wouldn't try to estimate an over/under on the number of days before the Staff has to close the comments.

PAUL vs MACHINE
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Nov 29, 2007 6:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all I should say I’d prefer Kucinich as commander in chief. However it is telling that Kucinich has said he would be agreeable to Ron Paul as a running mate (go figure).

“And it's here where Paul deserves some respect, even from his detractors. He does, after all, have the courage of his convictions.”

He has far more than the “courage of his convictions” . What goes untold and unnoticed in this near 2000 world essay by Joshua Holland is that Ron Paul (like Dennis and Elizabeth Kucinich) actually has something called integrity that is supported by grass roots rank and file America. Put another way, he is not a snake oil corporate stooge like every other candidate put up by an Orwellian Washington-MSM horror show.

“Ron Paul is a reactionary, yes…”

No, Ron Paul is an old school revolutionary. While it’s true he is counter to some “progressive” causes, he seeks to abolish a completely bogus “war on terror” empire and illegal sham private “Federal Reserve” Corporation that – although never federal and with zero reserves – is in charge of the economy through the Ponzi scheme extortion of charging monopoly interest for creating the nation’s money supply. (both “war on terror” and the “Fed” are frauds Kucinich also wants abolished)

Paul is also against corporate welfare and monopoly corporate entitlement.

I don’t agree with many of Ron Paul’s stands but to call him anything like a “wingnut” as the establishment “left” does is absurd. It’s also a travesty when virtually all dem candidates outside Kucinich are corporate shills that supported “war on terror” into an Iraq War genocide and still do under corrupt slogans like “re-deployment” and “maintaining security in the region”.

“Paul says that he'd slash the size of government by 40 percent, a dramatic restructuring by any account.”

Uhm, no. Not when a neo-con front under toy cowboy GW pumped up Big Brother “government by 40 percent” over the past 8 years. Shrinking Big Brother down is merely sanity.

The racist charge on Paul also rings hollow in light of his record in giving away medical care to the poor (mostly Hispanics and blacks) as a doctor.

Ron Paul may be far from ideal but he’s honest, real and he’s valid. In other words, he is not a self-serve sellout for organized corporate crime and its Fascist ruling class. Apart from Kucinich, that cannot be said of any candidate from either party.

» RE: PAUL vs MACHINE Posted by: leavemlaughing
Night of the Living Dead?
Posted by: catullus13 on Nov 29, 2007 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is Ron Paul the reanimated corpse of George Wallace? The same "hate big gubmint" and "hate all nigras" and "hate all pointy-headed librals" rhetoric.

A Challenge to Ron Paul Detractors
Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Nov 29, 2007 6:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Greetings leftists!

Part one of my challenge is for you to find a single vote Ron Paul has cast that could be considered to be unconstitutional.

Part two of my challenge is for you to find an example of corrupt and/or unethical behavior by Ron Paul.

Part three of my challenge is for you to catch Ron Paul lying to the American people.

I'm not some kind of Ron Paul authority, by the way. I'm just curious so see what people can dig up should they accept my challenge instead of just rating it a 1 because they don't like his positions.

Thanks and have fun!

» RE: A Challenge to Ron Paul Detractors Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A Challenge to Ron Paul Detractors Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: A Challenge to Ron Paul Detractors Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A Challenge to Ron Paul Detractors Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» You are just wrong man. Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» Illiteratilumen, you rock! Posted by: jbur816
let's all pretend X doesn't exist
Posted by: mwildfire on Nov 29, 2007 6:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Both the article and the comments were disappointing. The article because it perpetuated that odd thing we see so much of this year--a refusal to mention Kucinich. Here's the one candidate who has all Paul's virtues and none of his faults--so Holland just pretends he doesn't exist.
As for the comments, i suppose it's entirely predictable that a piece on a libertarian candidate in a progressive site will attract libertarian comments, people outraged that Holland "hasn't seriously considered" Paul's arguments--obviously, because if he had he'd be a libertarian, right? Anybody who thinks about these matters is bound to conclude the Market is an Almighty and Begnign God that will put everything to rights if we just close down the government.

» RE: let's all pretend X doesn't exist Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Joshua Holland- Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: A Majority... Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: A Majority... Posted by: jbur816
The Ron Paul phenomenon
Posted by: Democritus on Nov 29, 2007 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ron Paul's candidacy is a refreshing change from GOP politics as usual. Joshua Holland lists the usual suspects who are supporting him: the disadvantaged, the disenfranchised, the people who live and think at the margins of our society. But I think that there is another reason for the passionate support that he is presently receiving, which is that he is the Republican anti-Bush.

Whereas, Bush piously spoke of his "compassionate conservativism," his actions revealed him as a big-money, big-corporation, big-government imperialist who was willing to talk cynically about freedom and democracy, while at the same time squandering our military forces by invading another country to steal its oil. Paul is none of the things that Bush is, and that, in itself, should endear him to all those who have hated what Bush has wrought during the past seven years.

Unfortunately, being the anti-Bush doesn't provide sufficient credentials to be elected president. Despite his obvious sincerity, Paul's positive positions on the issues does not speak to what most Americans believe. For instance, do most Americans believe that a fertilized egg is a person replete with all the rights of personhood? I don't think so. Those who do believe it do so on religious grounds alone. Do most Americans believe that we should abolish Social Security and the Department of Education? I don't think so. Social Security is what many elderly
Americans depend on simply to survive; and we have seen recently, with students from other countries performing better at reading and math, that we need more government support of education, not less.

At the end of the day, we should give Ron Paul kudos for protesting the Iraq war and denouncing our imperialist aims; and then we should support someone who is not only anti-Bush, but who also wishes to use government to benefit all Americans. Someone like Dennis Kucinich.

Happiness in Slavery
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Nov 29, 2007 6:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As it currently stands we are all slaves.

Slaves of the government, which through consensual crime laws has created imprisonable offenses from consensual activities. Taxation systems that take a large portion of our incomes and gives it to others in the form of corporate welfare and individual welfare.

Slaves of captialism, which through the laws of supply and demand has resulted in the necessity of all of us working in order to provide ourselves with a place to live, food, health care, etc.


Ron Paul's platform is based on getting rid of Government slavery which is a good thing and something no other candidate, with the possible exception of Dennis Kucinich, is in favor of.

The only way we will ever be rid of Capitalistic Slavery will be when/if the Robotic Wageless Economy is created.


Government and the Environment
I do definitely disagree with Ron Paul's stance on the environment, I believe the world is a shared global resource (there is an offshoot of libertarianism called geolibertarianism that takes this stance), the rf spectrum, the land, the water, and the life flourishing in it, and government should be in the business of protecting it for all of us.

He is correct however in his assessment that Government does not currently protect it which begs the question, "How would his government be any different when it comes to the environment and the current status quo?"

Government and Education
The government does not provide anything near a good education, it programs generations to become good worker bees in the economy and continuing to vote for corrupt crooks in public office.

A good education would teach critical thinking skills, psychology, human nature, and the nature of authoritarianism (the lemming like behavior of most humans in terms of blindly following authority).

A good education would enable students to advance at their own pace rather than be held back by the rest of the students.

Government and the Economy
I believe the government should be actively pushing for the development of automation technologies so that the Robotic Wageless economy can be realized.

It could license or buy technologies which completely automate the production of goods like food, so that they no longer cost anything. If no humans are involved in the process of production, how would the products produced cost anything since there was no human labor involved?

Why Liberals Who Favor Any Democrat Over Ron Paul are Off the Mark
Other than Defense (which at this point just means maintaining our nuclear weapons cache since they are a sufficient deterrent to any nations attacking us), the Environment and Technological Automation, I don't believe the government should be involved with our lives nor extract money from us for all sorts of programs.

Liberals and progressives are off the mark in regards to big government. To put a new spin on the old metaphor, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

The social programs liberals and progressives try to institute are almost always programs that have the effect of handing out fish, whether it is discounted housing, food stamps, welfare, or the next big one, free healthcare.

Their collective eye should be on the bigger picture of teaching people how to fish and ultimately automating the catching of fish so no one has to fish anymore.

» RE: Happiness in Slavery Posted by: Thucy
» RE: The GI Bill of Rights if NOT a Social Program Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Speaking the Truth
Posted by: Honky on Nov 29, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
" Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act. "

Perhaps the above George Orwell quote best describes the Ron Paul message.
Look I just want him to be commander in chief.
You know trade with everyone, Alliances with none.
Dont worry you cry baby Liberals, The Democratic Senate which he will surely inherit will work overtime stopping any economy measures that Paul might try to introduce.
Go Ron keep sticking the truth right in their faces

» RE: Speaking the Truth Posted by: brock_samson
» "Commander in Chief" Posted by: matti
Where Fascism Rules
Posted by: Number_6 on Nov 29, 2007 6:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Paul's supporters are simply disenfranchised nonvoters who have been animated, many for the first time in years, by his campaign, and that's not a bad thing in a nominal democracy where complacency rules."

Where complacency rules?

How about calling it where Fascism rules for what it is.

Even "nominal" democracy went out with 9/11.

Shenonymous says Be Careful of Being Blinded
Posted by: Shenonymous on Nov 29, 2007 6:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This commentary will also be posted on Truthdig.
Here In two parts:
What does it mean to have the courage of one’s convictions? This little aphorism always has a sweet ring to it. What it means to me is a position of entrenchment regardless of the merits of those convictions. And that saying is a seduction. It is a kind of mental rape. It often seems a virtue, and those arguing that that alone is reason enough to be excited and affected have calculated to confuse your critical brain. But be forewarned, it is a historical practice of the people of this country to be persuaded in their political understandings by glitz and not reality, who do not exercise critical thinking skills because they have little or none or are too relaxed to use them if they have such ability. And by virtue of that they become easy intellectual prey, victims of ignorance.

Whether or not he intended to, the article of Joshua Holland on AlterNet.org glamorizes the candidacy of Ron Paul, and that of course is anyone’s prerogative. The author rightly has mentioned the political positions of Ron Paul. The main thrust of the argument however is that Presidential Candidate Paul is bewitching and has a burgeoning charisma mainly because of the positions of his compatriot Republican candidates. He is somewhat, but just a tad, to the left of the entire bunch and none of them are saying anything to excite the imagination even of the voters of their own party.

But it is wholly important that you do no become blinded by bandwagon charisma, and demagoguery. Ron Paul’s convictions, if he is made President, will place him in a most influential and commandeering position as to nullify Roe v. Wade, and taking women’s rights back to pre-1960 days, dashing and slashing education funding, carving chunks out of Medicare, and most of all lacerating Social Security.

Shenonymous says Be Careful of Being Blinded Part 2
Posted by: Shenonymous on Nov 29, 2007 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even though Paul has some good ideas most of them are traces of good, such as pulling in the belt, and reducing the military presence in the world. However, he wants to hack all social programs where it should be only in places where excessive spending has gone corrupt. His call to end the Bush/Iraq war is a major consideration as that was an illegal war to begin with and is depleting the national coffers, but it is not the only issue that will face Americans for the next decade, even though he has these convictions, we be very, very calculating in selecting the next President.

Remember that libertarian slogans will not promote your welfare and before you are swayed by a Republican, any Republican, and especially a libertarian Republican who wants America to become an isolationist nation to the degree of damaging, further from what Bush has done to this country, our place in the world, and butcher our much needed social programs that really need bolstered, it is your imperative, your duty to protect America; it is not one man’s responsibility, whose convictions promise to be detrimental and dangerous. For like it or not, America is a country of the 21st century world.

In Defense of Joshua Holland*
Posted by: dover23 on Nov 29, 2007 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
*Joshua Holland's a biased AlterNet staff writer, yes, but he's an anti-empire, anti-war biased AlterNet staff writer who doesn't believe the president should be king.

I praise Josh for writing this entertaining and relatively fair & balanced piece about candidate Paul. It seems like he struck quite a negative reaction among the lefty true believers though.

What surprises me the most is how many commenters here are simply apologists for federal power. They feel free to bash the government for all its crimes and abuses but when a principled politician comes along and directly challenges that power in question, all hell breaks loose.

I can only come to the conclusion that all these harsh Ron Paul critics hypocritically worship power while at the same time endlessly criticize it. It's the same-old same-old, as if it will be any different under the next Demothuglican. Paul represents a challenge to the elite and change, and that's what is truly behind his mass appeal. Those who fear a less regulated private sector should have greater fear of a powerful coercive violent public sector under private control.

Thanks Josh, for bringing out the left wingnuts.

Mister.
Posted by: Spock on Nov 29, 2007 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've copied the discussion thread here for use in my essays having to do with logical fallacies and the near total absence of critical thinking in today's political discourse. Originally, I thought to write here a list of all the logical fallacies used in this discussion. Unfortunately, the volume of fallacy is prohibitive. It IS interesting, however, that most of what's logical in the comments is made by those tending to support Ron Paul. In fact, that's VERY interesting.
www.judoknighterrant.com

» RE: Mister. Posted by: brock_samson
Ron Paul's Ideology
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Nov 29, 2007 6:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because of the support Ron Paul has received from so many Alternet posters, I decided to take a look at his website to find out what his positions really are. Although I agree with his stance on the Iraq occupation and some of his ideas about foreign policy, I was horrified at his domestic ideology.

As other commenters have pointed out, establishing "personhood" on a bunch of cells by creating laws that life begins at conception is most certainly not libertarian. Taking away the rights of citizens because of sexual orientation is not keeping the government out of our personal lives.

After reading a few of Paul's essays along with the general platform, I came to the conclusion that he's a pretty scary guy. The courage of one's convictions may be an admirable trait, but it does not necessarily make for a good leader. No one is more certain of the courage of his convictions than George W. Bush, and look where that got us.

As sometimes happens, the title of the article didn't quite reflect the content. The only "defense" of Ron Paul that I got was that he is honest about his beliefs and he doesn't necessarily have the same philosophy as some of the extremists and nutjobs who support him.

I, for one, was glad to see a good synopsis of Ron Paul's platform. It pretty much covered the issues as they are presented on Paul's website.

Once again, Kucinich is the only candidate I would fully support, and I was disappointed that his name was not mentioned in Holland's article. I realize that when he discussed the democrats, it was about the "frontrunners," but Kucinich will remain in the background as long as his candidacy is not taken seriously even by the progressive community.

» Please Explain to us.... Posted by: dover23
» Nazis are anti-state? Posted by: dover23
» You are correct Posted by: LeeAnnG
» At the very least.... Posted by: dover23
» RE: on Paul's Ideology Posted by: Joshua Holland
» part of the confusion Posted by: war_on_tara
» much here I hadn't been aware of Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: on Paul's Ideology Posted by: Thucy
» RE: on Paul's Ideology Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: on Paul's Ideology Posted by: Basenjis
» Re: things have changed Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: e: things have changed Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: interesting to see Posted by: aka_bozo
» RE: interesting to see Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Evidence, please. Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: vidence, please. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: This attitude is so sweet... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: on Paul's Ideology Posted by: jiclemens
Wingnut?
Posted by: kelt65 on Nov 29, 2007 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, I don't think so. The mainstream candidates are extreme wingnuts - Guiliani, McCain, Huckabee, Romney, Clinton, Obama - these are the real wingnuts. The problem is America is a nation of idiots.

The only non-wingnut candidates are Kucinich, Gravel and Paul.

Perhaps Paul doesn't jive with a lot of progressive causes, but the most important thing to me right now is demolition of the military industrial complex, ending corporate influence on government, reforming elections, and breaking up the stranglehold the media has on the system.

Of course non of the people will be elected, and America will continue its present course until it destroys itself.

» RE: Wingnut? Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Wingnut? Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Wingnut? Posted by: Stolz25
» Here is how I arrive at Paul Posted by: wishninja
Paul might end up as VP, but it won't be with Kucinich
Posted by: xbj on Nov 29, 2007 6:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Paul could very well end up being VP; Hillary's VP. It would be exactly the stroke of genius her campaign needs to show those who presume to be in the know and the most against her that she really is the answer. (You know, the "Satan CAN cast out Satan" crowd that lumps the Clintons in with the NaziGOP BushCo even though they tried to kill her by rigging a CBS interview light to fall squarely on her head and made damn sure Chelsea was jogging at the WTC when the Towers were hit; Bill, who they made damn sure was far out of town to make him look guilty, was frantic. Jesus asked it best: Can Satan cast out Satan? The answer has always been a resounding "NO.")

And the way the overconfident clandestinely GOP funded Obama campaign has cut off its nuts regarding Hillary, and therfore any chance whatsoever at ever gaining the White House (the majority of semi-racist white America older people, who do 98% of the voting by the way, will NEVER elect a black man until he's served at least two terms as Vice President, and that's EXACTLY why the GOP wants to run against "can't possibly win" Obama), Paul actually is the most advantageous choice for Hillary, if not the actual genius choice.

Which I stated here, what, three months ago? Glad Kucinich is reading my posts.

What about Obama? He screwed himself, and Hillary doesn't need him to win. By choosing Paul it would send the badly needed message "Choose me by our record; not by what I HAVE to say to let the Powers that Be (corporate, military, et al) let me into office in the first place."

The smart voter chooses people by their record IN OFFICE; not by what they have to say to win. If such had been the case with a certain pair of assholes by the name of Bush-Cheney, they wouldn't have ever gotten within a million miles of the White House.

That's the problem; people listen to what people say, not to what THEY HAVE DONE. Know them by their works; NOT THEIR WORDS.

Hell, I ought to run for president, and my part would be called..
Posted by: eosrk on Nov 29, 2007 7:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..the Peoples's party, that's right. And since the church wants to be a part of the state, they can pay taxes like the state too, and if the rich want the benefits of the us, they will pay their part, too, cause I'll have Mr. Buffett run that one....both Mr. Buffetts if need be, stop all these imports of bad stuff by kicking their asses outta here, we'll survive, America will survive, and make a lot of things right in this country by firing the government first, Native Americans can stay here for free, since their country was stolen from them, fix this racisim once and for all, and we will become innovators, get along with everybody, legalize drugs then place a tax on it....you know, common sense stuff.

» By fixing racisms do you mean ending Affirmative Action? Posted by: Gentrification Through Natural Selection
The constitution is just a piece of paper
Posted by: tkwilson on Nov 29, 2007 7:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George said it, I believe it.

Nobody else besides RP in this alleged race has unequivocally stated that they want to restore the constitution, not even Dennis.
It's at least a place to start.

Right now, as it stands, we live in a country ruled by corporate interests and the bottom line, and it's a global horror show.

The liberals, leftists, progressives, et al will continue to quibble and carp; and the Republic, what little is left, will continue to rot.

You all just keep bitchin' at each other and the New World Order which Holland claims is a conspiracy (George H. W. proclaimed it publicly), will continue to maintain your prison.

» Belief check Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Belief check Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Belief check Posted by: Stolz25
» RE: Belief check Posted by: Joshua Holland
texas cowboy here
Posted by: texascowboyhere on Nov 29, 2007 7:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow. It is so interesting to see how everyone supports their candidate of choice. I'm really trying to understand everyones view points. Personally I'm starting to move towards Ron Paul.

Supporting Obama but if god forbid hillary gets nod I vote ron paul
Posted by: DanielleClarke on Nov 29, 2007 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am an independent turned democrat to vote for Obama but i will never ever vote for hillary clinton. I will vote ron paul or nader before i will ever vote for another clinton.

by Nat Hentoff
March 15 - 21, 2000
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0011,hentoff,13268,6.html

""As Senator Paul Wellstone has said on the Senate floor: "Over two-thirds of a million low-income persons lost Medicaid coverage and became uninsured due to welfare reform. Sixty-two percent were children. Moreover, the number of people who lose health coverage due to welfare reform is certain to grow rather substantially in the years ahead. The Clinton "welfare reform" law mandates a five-year cumulative lifetime cap on the benefits. You are off the rolls forever. The "safety net" that Eleanor Roosevelt and her husband worked so hard to get into law has been torn apart by William Jefferson Clinton—to the applause of his wife. Daniel Patrick Moynihan opposed the Clintons' Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act—their "welfare reform" law. When it was passed, Moynihan called it "the most brutal act of social policy since Reconstruction.""

And "you clinton supporters" want to vote for another CLINTON AGAIN??


The clinton years may have been good at the time but
the welfare to work bill never funding the mothers for
proper education and never funding the children for
proper child care and the 1994 clinton crime bill that
took away pell grants which lead from a 30% recidivism
rate to a 70% rate cost americans dearly as prisons
were privatized and children were allowed to go wild
due to mothers having to work two jobs at micky D's
and now we pay 100k a yr to support these children in
jails as bill never reduced crack cocaine which puts
them in jail longer and thusly we pay to keep them
there which has caused us all to be further in debt
and more kids killing others as they see no jobs
because their mothers never got educated and could be
examples to them.

yea they were great yrs but turned to hell very fast
after Slick willy got out and then he goes to a bunch
of balck churches and gets seen as the black president
NOT and now we all suffer and blame bush for slick
willys term and actions and inactions.

yeaa it was great but for who and for how long ???


Here is what she did during her time with the
www.childrensdefensefund.org and this doesn't count
what she may have done with walmart.

http://www.childrensdefense.org/
site/PageServer?pagename=c2pp_summit2007

2007 Cradle to Prison Pipeline®
Crisis in America National Summit

September 25 - 26, 2007
Howard University
Washington, D.C.



http://72.14.205.104/search?

q=cache:E_T52L02xVsJ:www.answers.

com/topic/marian-wright-

edelman+marian+wright+edelman+hillary+

clinton+children+prison&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

» OK, but Posted by: Ripcord
Ron Paul is the only Congressman to push for LEGALIZING INDUSTRIAL HEMP for 25000 uses !
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 29, 2007 7:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Very few Democrats even come close to that though I do applaud the ones who co-sponsored it. Ron Paul may have his contradictions on minor issues such as "abortion" but at least he's more of a consistant libertarian who doesn't just kiss Wall Street's ass unlike most libertarians who give voters the middle finger on civil liberties !

Americans do NOT love big government . . .
Posted by: reevolve on Nov 29, 2007 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the government loves big government. Take, for instance, Josh's claim that making Social Security optional would "effectively destroy it." Why should that be if the program is so popular? In truth, Social Security is the worst investment known to mankind and only serves to give politicians an enormous pool of money from which to borrow. Of course, when said loans become due (coming soon, look out) the s**t is going to hit the fan. But of course by then most of those politicians will have moved on.

The reason that many people are attracted to Paul is that the Republicans in Congress ran on a platform of cutting taxes, cutting spending and shrinking government. Once they got into power, they realized that spending lots and lots of money was much more fun and was a source of power for them. Ron Paul is the one candidate that has not been sucked in by this temptation, and his record reflects this.

Just another hit piece.* So what?
Posted by: sun_tzu on Nov 29, 2007 8:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That in no way resembled a "defense" of Ron Paul. Pathetic. This sounds like Wonkette but not nearly as snark-filled.
Ron Paul believes in the Constitution. That includes Congress and the Supreme Court playing their proper role. Right now we have a "unitary executive", a weak Congress and a Vice President out of control. That would not be the case in a Ron Paul presidency.
To deny the fact that our nation is in decline and faces serious problems is foolish. Dr. Paul recognizes these problems.The solutions should be implemented in a democratic way, not by Executive Order.
You might not agree with a limited role for the federal government, but a corresponding strengthening of state and local government where the ordinary citizen can have more of an opportunity to influence policy would be good for the average activist.
A Paul presidency would require all of us to get more involved, and shouldn't that be considered a good thing? I don't care if you disagree with the idea of having more personal freedom. That is what many of us see in him. That is what attracts us to him. We want freedom, not a fascist police state under construction.

Democrats are making a mistake by attacking Ron Paul. Dissatisfaction with the Bush Empire should be at an all-time high. Try taking some of his talking points and applying them to liberal constituencies, or vote for Kucinich.
Don't let CNN tell you how to vote.

Ron Paul is a "Wingnut" ???
Posted by: Persephone8 on Nov 29, 2007 8:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But it's ok that our government has become fascist. totalitarian dictators

who greatest fantasy is to destroy the Constitution, Bill of Rights and

our Unalienable Rights.

It amazes me that we have forgotten the freedoms and liberties of
living in a sovereign nation - that at one time, inspired other countries
to question the tyranny of their own governments,

Almost all the candidates running for the office of President are
corporate owned, handled "products" whose agenda is expanding interenational corporate and government power at the yet unknown cost of America's freedom.


Are Americans actually OK with The PATRIOT Act's violation of our liberties and sovereignty. Are people OK with the intrusion
of corpoarte power via banking, insurance, credite cards - and many other malelfic influences we are no longer able to see. Is it OK to be conditioned by fear to the point that people are afraid to act and
speak out lawfully against a government that is supposed to be a co-creator with its' citizens?

Ron Paul has an excellent 35 year record in Congress. How does being a Constitutional purist make him a reactionary ? Why are his supporters "overpasasionate" ?
Part of the tragedy of current politics is that there is no passion or direct involvement- or things wouldn't be this screwed up.

It is the lack of passion and ability to see how directly politics affects
our lives and major decisions: From our careers to health care
to personal and financial decisions
I feel Ron Paul is a lightning rod to a country that is numbed out,
and has forgotten what being a sovereign citizen living in a sovereign country means.
He is consistent in his vision and political platform-

We, as citizens, are resposnible for our own lives without intrusion or intereference from the governnment. People had best look at the
political blueprints of countries like the former Soviet Union, and
aspects of the Third Reich. There are some scary resonances happening in this country right now.

I feel Ron Paul is addressing these issues, as well as many other
intensely crucial ones. I believe he is the most exciting political
opportunity for change we have had a very long time !

Why not a heads up comparison??
Posted by: crazy carlos on Nov 29, 2007 8:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obviously from the response to this article by so many persons leads one to certain conclusions; and the first of those is that a vary large segment of the viewers of this forum are both independent thinkers and also as sick of all the Demo's and Reb's save two, why not prepare a really in depth comparisons of Ron and Dennis. Say, 8 Domestic issues such as Education, Abortion, Enviroment etc and 8 issues on foreign affairs: ie Iraq and Iran, Palestine and those other guys, Oil Depletion,etc and then 4 philosophical statements that try and really define how each of them relate to We the Sheeple, Our relationship the world, changes needed to be made and maybe what their Velterstang (sp?) or roughly translated, their world view is and its affect on today and the future.

There are enough contributors that I think a consensus of topics could be put together and then request that both Canidates address the issues presented.

I think that both would respond because they are fighting for the same constituancy and the vast untapped one that is hulking and sulking over being overlooked and fed up. Just a thought. Crazy carlos

» Good Idea Posted by: LeeAnnG
Ron Paul is an extreme racist
Posted by: Sunnydayz on Nov 29, 2007 8:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is not that Ron Paul has support of the hate groups, the problem is that he is himself, a very rabid racist. He published somthing called the Ron Paul Political Report for some years and although its hard to track them down, there is one that was archived and its full of racial hatred and venom. Just go to this address to read his report yourself.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/15/124912/740

Anyone who claims that 95% of all black males are criminals isnt someone I want to see in the office of the presidency. Anyone who says you can identify a terrorist by the color of their skin (and he was referring to black folks) isnt someone the US really needs as a president!

Its also interesting to note that he was asked to release all his political reports since they were hard to find and he refused, but judging by the one we DO HAVE, its not hard to see why he refused.

Haha
Posted by: breen on Nov 29, 2007 9:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ron Paul is "anti-free trade" huh? This is a pretty absurd statement when you consider that Dr. is heavily influenced by the free market principles of the Austrian School of economics. (http://www.mises.org/). A quote that he includes in his book, A Foreign Policy of Freedom, and has paraphrased in several debates is: "Commerce with all nations, alliances with none, should be our motto."--Thomas Jefferson. I think you may be confused because Dr. Paul is against so-called free trade agreements which are in actuality heavily regulated and favor big business.

» RE: Haha Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Haha Posted by: breen
» RE: Haha Posted by: breen
» RE: Haha Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Bad link day Posted by: Joshua Holland
Ron Paul the Best of a Bad Lot
Posted by: alicelillie on Nov 29, 2007 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article's comments on Paul's record are well taken.

But you must examine the records of other candidates and how they have inserted unwanted government into your life and how they are in favor of, or at least condone imperialistic international policy.

Ron Paul wants to end empire and get the federal government out of your life. All the issues you are interested in like abortion, health care and education can be dealt with at the state and local level where you have a bigger say.

As President, Paul would concentrate on bringing our troops home and ending our disasterous foreign policy, and thus promote peace. He'd lower federal taxes drastically, especially for the middle class, putting more money in *your* pocket and allow states to decide their own tax policies.

I believe at the end of the day progressives, and everyone else, have good reason to support Paul. Maybe he isn't perfect, but is anybody? Far from it.

And as for some of his supporters that you don't agree with (and neither do I), such as white supremicists, look at some of Hilliary's and Obama's supporters...you'll find some unsavory folks there too. There's not a whole heck of a lot candidates can do about this, and all the candidates have these.

Left misses point again
Posted by: GeoffB on Nov 29, 2007 9:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love the "I'm not attacking Ron Paul" Ron Paul attack pieces. I think I have read this same article reworded about 3 times now.

As for the no government services position, that is bunk, if you listen to him, he talks about those services handled at the state level. His belief, that is shared by his supporters, is why send the money to Washington, so they can decide how much to send back to you. Why not just keep the money with the states so that they may decide how to use it. Having all the decision making power in one place leads to the corruption we see today.

As I have replied to other articles like this, i will again say, there is a real debate between the merits of a decentralized government the Constitution established, and a strong central government that exists today. In fact this debate has been ongoing since the constitution was ratified.

But this is never the debate at hand, it always gets boiled down to "Vote for Ron Paul and you will loose everything the Government does for you." Everyone assumes that people who support Paul don't really understand his politics. It is true he has energized people who have felt left out of the process, and his message of freedom and self reliance are empowering and fresh ideas. But you need only listen to him speak to understand he has thought out difficult solutions to the problem of a welfare state. He is for making Social Security voluntary, and he has never voted to spend any of the money in the fund. he is the only candidate who will protect those in the system by cutting back on our empire, and using our resources at home for our people.

While we could debate whether the Federal Government, riddled with bought and paid for politicians who serve only the special interest groups, should have complete control of everything, or have some of that regulatory power rest in the hands of local Governments who can better decide what is important. We wont, it is easier to say these ideas are "batshit" and the people who believe in them are "wingnuts"

This year we have a choice, support the empire and enjoy life in Orwell's 1984, or help push the pendulum back towards freedom and self reliance.

» RE: Left misses point again Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Left misses point again Posted by: Stolz25
» RE: we have a choice ? Posted by: aka_bozo
"Low information" on economics is the problem
Posted by: anarchristian on Nov 29, 2007 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"They expect cheap student loans and meat inspections and smooth highways, and even the lowest of 'low information' voters know they're not going to get that stuff from the private sector." They may believe it, but they certainly don't know it, and neither does anyone else. They believe it because they're "low information" when it comes to economics, having been exposed much more to "market-failure" propaganda than to government-failure evidence. Whether Ron Paul's movement has a chance of overturning mass blindness to that evidence remains to be seen.

Support Percentages
Posted by: ajtdonahue on Nov 29, 2007 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's be honest here folks. Dr. Paul's support from the extreme groups is next to nil.
Here is my estimate of his support percentages based on being a Paul supporter and attending his events in my area (Seattle).

99.995% - Liberty loving Americans who are tired of big government politicians spending us towards bankruptcy. We have watched the value of the dollar sink to record lows and don't see an end in sight. We are tired of seeing Americans die on third world country soil fighting nations that pose no threat to our national security. We are normal as can be everyday Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, and Independents.

00.005% - Whack jobs that exist in all the candidates support base. It is great to be in Dr. Paul's camp though because the media covers us more than the overwhelming majority of Paul supporters.

» RE: Support Percentages Posted by: jbur816
» RE: Support Percentages Posted by: Turiye
Fact Check
Posted by: thirty3na3rd on Nov 29, 2007 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua,
To my knowledge, Ron Paul has not "proposed altering the 14th Amendment to prohibit the children of immigrants from gaining citizenship", but rather altering it to prohibit the children born to illegal aliens while they are in this country illegally from gaining automatic citizenship. Big difference.

Why Progressives Might Support Ron Paul
Posted by: James W. Harris on Nov 29, 2007 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here are a few reasons Progressives may find Ron Paul a better choice than the others we're being faced with:

Paul is against the Drug War, including the wars on marijuana and medical marijuana.

Paul is for Free Speech and other First Amendment Rights.

Paul is for strict Fourth Amendment protection against illegal search and seizure.

Paul is against the American Empire and would bring troops home from around the world.

Paul is, in general, pro-Bill of Rights and pro-peace and anti-war in a way almost no other major party candidate in modern times has been.

Paul voted against the Patriot Act when it was dangerous to do so. He denounced it at the time as police state legislation.

Paul is against ALL corporate welfare.

Paul is against torture, secret prisons, spying on innocent Americans, and the horrors of the post-9/11 Republicrat police state.

Paul opposes the death penalty.

Paul is not a conservative, he's a libertarian. That's a horse of a different stripe.

Anti-war, pro-civil liberties Americans should get together and work on these issues. We must work together to stop the war, the torture, the gutting of our freedoms that is going on right now.

After we've settled that, *then* we can disagree on whether or not the Post Office should be privatized, whether there should be national health care, and so on. But those are trivial differences compared to the great concerns of today which demand our cooperation.

The Unitary Scumbaggery Doctrine..!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Nov 29, 2007 10:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with Ron Paul on about half of his agenda maybe a bit more even, but one thing he and I and Kucinich all share is our rejection of:

~The Unitary Scumbaggery Doctrine~

You tuned into Alternet...
Posted by: jimidee on Nov 29, 2007 10:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and you can tune it out. Go watch some FOX news...that will calm you down again, or not! I think we can safely say that you are but a troll. Have a nice day, Mr. Wingnut.

re: abortions
Posted by: xvictor on Nov 29, 2007 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
per an interview Ron Paul gave on a talk show, he had elaborated on that issue. He feels the federal government should not be in the business of funding abortions, that ought to be left up to the states. The fed, he believes, should be neutral, neither pro or anti. Mississippi may outlaw abortions, for example, but it's legal in surrounding states, that's fine with him. Again, he leaves that up to the states.

This, along with other issues, he leaves that up to the states, and whatever the Constitution says. Seems basic to me.

» Ron Paul is "pro-life" Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: on Paul is "pro-life" Posted by: xvictor
» RE: on Paul is "pro-life" Posted by: Turiye
michael-jay
Posted by: michael-jay on Nov 29, 2007 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Joshua,

I really like most of your article on Dr. Paul and his campaign. It's insight into the niche that make his ideology of liberty attractive from both sides affords you a sense of the strength of that hope in the hearts of many Americans. But you fall far short of understanding his "wingnut' approach to "rolling back the calender". Your reasoning, like that of most contemporary national socialists, reveals your antithetical attitude towards constitutional government. It's also evident that the framers of that social and spiritual contract knew that it would be wholly unfit for an but a truly moral and religious people.

So, in appealing to the amoral reasoning of most Americans, it's easy to point to a godly leader, that is someone so out of step with a culture that easily despises the miracle of its' own existence that it murders its' own offspring, and join the hellish rabble in the joys of their contempt. Gone from the group mind is any regard for the laws that restrained the slavish idolatry toward another god to be the all-providing shepherd/replacement: another creation of men's hands, corporate government.

You failed to mention that Ron Paul is not a covenant -breaker, he has never broken his oath to uphold the Constitution. None of the "New Deal", "Great Society", wars on poverty, cancer, racism, hate crimes, ignorance, etc. have any authorization to justify their symbiotic existence and socialism parasitism is endemic and numerous cancers, open sores, fevers and delirium afflict the body politic with obvious and seemingly incurable conditions.

He has not become a special interest whore. This is what really bugs his detractors. They can't really point out that he's not one of the boys because he's not on the take.

But, apart from these issues your article was pretty good.

» RE: michael-jay Posted by: tjg1984
Good article
Posted by: jbur816 on Nov 29, 2007 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I like Ron Paul and actually agree that we need to shrink down our corrupt government... people will have to learn to live without the handouts and handholding. Self sufficiency again... what a concept! That pioneering spirit is what made this country great in the first place. The needy, pathetic and selfish attitude so pervasive now is one of the things (among many) that is bringing it to its knees, currently. Ron Paul represents change. And we need big change people. Anything less will only bring more of the same. If we keep on our current path we might just get there. What I like about Ron Paul is his consistency and his integrity. He stands for something and he knows what that is... and no, it isn't racist. Some of his supporters might be freaks, hell, I am sure some of Rudy and Hillary's are...

The founders didn't envision the country that we have today. Our government is not even close to being constitutional. Ron Paul wants to bring us back to the constitution and if that is radical, then I guess so am I. FYI, other radicals of their day include Jesus, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Ghandi, MLK.

Doing away with the Fed and the IRS are two good steps back to the constitution and I can't believe that any informed people in this country (who are not themselves part of those 2 entities) would be in favor of keeping them.

He's not that far out.
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 29, 2007 10:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of the things Mr. Paul want undone truly need it. DHS,NSA,CIA, all have taken away our freedom more than any terrorist. Our own government has become more of a threat to our Liberty than Bin Ladin. Washington has turned into an exclusive club where everyone want their asses royally kissed instead of being the servants they are supposed to be.
Ron's not the only one who wants America to change it's corrupted ways. So do I. That's why the 'Draft Jeffrey7' campaign. It's the only way left for the 'man of meager means can aspire to the office of President'. Otherwise it's the domain of the rich. And they can't be trusted as far as you can toss them. We have no Freedom,no Liberty and even less Social justice. If we allow this dangerous trend to continue,we won't only be as bad as the Russian Communists or the North Koreans,we'll be worse. To get back what we've lost, without bloodshed,we'lll need you,me,and Ron Paul on the job
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez '08
www.youtube.com/RevJeffrey7

federalism
Posted by: sokarII on Nov 29, 2007 11:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People always say that Ron Paul is anti-government, but that isn't true. He is pro constitution which is the framework for the Union we find ourselves in. Ron Paul wants the states and counties and municipalities--you know, where people actually live--to have most of the control. The thing I like about Ron Paul, and I am a green, is that he doesn't give a fuck what a state wants to do because he is in the federal government. The federal government has little control over what states can do, except for the specific area in the constitution. If a state wants socialized medicine it would be its prerogative to provide it. If Ron Paul was elected our localities would have much more control and thus we would have more direct contact with the institutions that touch our lives. The goals of the progressive movement would actually be much easier to accomplish. When the authority rests in a central institutions it gives easy access to those with the resources and cuts off, by geography, the peoples ability to directly be involved in the creation of the rules and institutions that run their lives. Ron Paul is against abortion but clearly states that as president he has no authority, federally speaking, to tell states when legally protected life begins, a truly difficult issue for which I completely disagree with him. This is the beauty of his presidency. He would return the republican nature of our government, power would rest in localities. This of course would make the South a freedom wasteland but I also think that the regressive states, particularly the south, would have to confront their systemic flawed ideologies on their own without the protection and redistributed wealth the federal government gives them. Lets face it, there are backwards parts of this country that that could end up with the archaic laws of Saudi Arabia. But, there is freedom of movement, enshrined in the constitution, that would push back on these issues the so many in the "red states" are currently sheltered from. Ron Paul does is not anti-government he is anti-federal government. He is not anti-tax in so much as he is anti-federal tax. The issue is the philosophy behind centralized authority; something that the constitution structurally tries to eliminate through not only competing branches of the federal government also a union of states who would, in their interest, limit the authority of the federal government. Its time that we start treating our union as the original United States/Nations and forget about federal policy except in the instances that the constitution allows

If Paul was what everyone says he is, he wouldn't be running as a NAZI
Posted by: xbj on Nov 29, 2007 11:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He would have DESERTED the Republican NaziGOP party a long time ago.

Being a Republican COMPLETELY disqualifies the man from any serious consideration for the Presidency, although he'd make one helluva Veep for Hillary.

Anyone thinks that ANY Republican can possibly win the White House next year has truly got feces for brains. Diebold is over, hacked to pieces, probably by the military. And by God they'll do it again if that's what it would take to avert a revolution.

And it will. Most definitely.

Paul's got some things going for him; being a Republican is the least of them, and a definite deal killer as far as the majority of America is concerned, thank GOD.

The Spoils System: Ron Paul is more dangerous than Karl Rove
Posted by: eddie torres on Nov 29, 2007 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Politicians who win elections systematically award government jobs and contracts to campaign supporters, campaign workers, friends, and ideological allies.

Ron Paul's campaign staff did not think it was necessary to disavow his connection to racist language. And Ron Paul's campaign didn't think it was risky to allow Ron Paul to pose for a picture with anti-IRS crusader and white supremacist Dr. Robert Clarkson. Some of the people Ron Paul has hired for his campaigns are happy to glad-hand, photo-op, and collect money from questionable sources.

Here's the trick about questionable behavior by campaign staffs and supporters: John Tanner, Michael Brown, Lewis Libby, Ralph Reed, Grover Norquist, John Ashcroft, Harriet Miers, Alberto Gonzales, and the legions of Patrick Henry College / Liberty University Rove-bots bumbling around the Fourth Branch aren't enough to demonstrate what goes on behind the little green curtain while everybody is mesmerized by the corporate news models?

Up the Haldol, Down the Prozac.

Join the Revolution. AlterNet has.
Posted by: Reader11722 on Nov 29, 2007 12:20 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fair coverage on AlterNet, the doctor's base expands again. However, looks like the MSM marching orders involve promoting Huckabee endlessly. Ron Paul had 2-3 questions and limited time. He still crushed them all (how come every article forgets to include his comeback to McCain which mentioned that Ron Paul gets more Military Contributions than any other candidate?). Mitt is dead after desecrating the Confederate flag. Many Southerners died under that flag. Unfortunately it took segregationist Governor Wallace to reveal the truth that "there's not a dime's worth of difference between" Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats willingly went along with the War in Iraq, suspension of Habeas Corpus, detaining protesters, banning books like America Deceived (book) from Amazon, warrant-less wiretapping and refusing to investigate 9/11 properly. They are both guilty of treason.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great nation.

» So, you are anti-truth? Posted by: jbur816
» RE: So, you are anti-truth? Posted by: EncinoM
Dennis Kucinich
Posted by: hellofriends on Nov 29, 2007 12:43 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dennis Kucinich
Dennis Kucinich
Dennis Kucinich
Dennis Kucinich


Write an article about HIM!

You may not like the guy, but . . .
Posted by: MAD on Nov 29, 2007 12:46 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You may start to warm to him after finding yourself dumpster diving because the dollar ceased to exist following an international fire sale.

You may grow fond of his plans to bring end to our ongoing ponzi scheme economy when the total cost of our international adventurism creeps past the $3 trillion mark.

Maybe you'll wish you had voted for him when it becomes painfully obvious that Hillary had no intention whatsoever of pulling out of Iraq. Imagine what the Republican alternatives have in mind?

Perhaps you'll wish you had voted for Paul when the first in a series of elementary schools are blown up by Iranian terrorist cells retaliating in the face of an aerial bombardment of Iranian nuclear facilities? Maybe China and Russia enter the fray? How many democrats have stated that they would consider bombing Iran?? I believe Hillary, Edwards and Obama stated publicly that Iran cannot be permitted to obtain a nuclear weapon. Or did I imagine that? And RP is the wingnut, is he?

The problem with most of you dopes is that you're unable to sift through the media chaff in order to reach the undeniable kernel of truth. Paul espouses certain beliefs with which I simply cannot agree (gay marriage and abortion are but two), but what you must realize is that we have reached what is perhaps the human race's most critical juncture on this, Brezinsk's global chessboard.

We can fiddle with gay marriage and immigration while Tehran burns. While Americans were busy taking in the latest installment of "Dancing With The Stars", the US was been placed on the endangered species list. I truly don't think that has yet sunk in with most of you. It will soon. I give us until the end of our glorious holiday shopping season and then - watch out!

We are teetering on the brink of financial and social ruin and you're worried that Paul will roll back the same "big government" that threatens to draw us into a global conflict with Islam, Russia and China? Ironic really. Keep fretting over an almost meaningless endorsement by David Duke while China, The UAE, Venezuela and Japan plot the destruction of our oh so sound economy. You gotta keep your eyes on the ball, folks. The bigger picture is growing clearer every day. Now, go vote for Hillary or Obama and see where that gets you. Better yet, vote for Kucinich and see where that gets you. You'll know what it is to be blamed for helping elect a republican like Nader supporters were accused of doing.

» RE: You may not like the guy, but . . . Posted by: tetraethyllead
KUSINICH
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Nov 29, 2007 1:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you left out kusinich again...

» RE: KUSINICH Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: KUSINICH 'C' Posted by: Turiye
Important Question
Posted by: HobbesFan on Nov 29, 2007 1:07 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does he support Universal Health Care?

» RE: Important Question Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Important Question Posted by: Stolz25
» RE: Important Question Posted by: Stolz25
Good Article Mr. Holland
Posted by: Stolz25 on Nov 29, 2007 2:53 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would take issue with a few points in it, and perhaps the way Ron Paul is portrayed overall, but you did an excellent job of finding the facts and covering the issues here. Taking into account you are a known supporter of Kucinich, I admire your fairness, even with the wingbat sub-title. I'm getting used to the fact no one seems to be able to mention a good thing about Paul without calling him some sort of name.

In any case, I don't think I could have written as even handed and fair a report of Kucinich (even liking him more than most candidates) and I salute both you're taking the time to do this column and your ability.

Sing along everybody!
Posted by: Fermata42 on Nov 29, 2007 3:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So you been to school for a year or two
And you know you've seen it all
In daddy's car thinkin' you'll go far
Back east your type don't crawl

Read Fountainhead 'till your brain is dead
In your smelly, bug-infested dorm
Knowin' how to run an architecture firm
If they weren't keeping you down

It's time to taste what you hold dear
Government won't help you here
Brace yourself, my dear:

It's a holiday in America
It's tough, kid, but you're free
It's a holiday in America
Your new paradise of greed

Trade that paper for metal since here we don't settle
For your Fed Reserve-brand tissues here
Put your cash in stocks, 'cause no inflation rocks
While the insiders get richer off you

Well you'll work harder in the company town
For two grams of gold a day
Slave in gold mines 'till you starve
Then your body will be sold as steak

Now you can go where A is A
Now you can go where there's no FDA
What you need, my son:

Is a holiday in America
Where the States do what they want
A holiday in America
And New York can buy Vermont

RON PAUL, RON PAUL, RON PAUL. . . .

And it's a holiday in America
Where you'll do what you're told
A holiday in America
But at least you've got your gold

» RE: Sing along everybody! Posted by: dbarber
HE IS NOT PRO-CHOICE. GET THE FACTS!
Posted by: realmuzik on Nov 29, 2007 3:44 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Planned Parenthood WILL NOT ENDORSE HIM. Anyone who has seen his ad in Iowa that aired before the straw poll will convince you hard that HE IS NOT PRO-CHOICE, and DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT ELSE YOU READ/HEAR, EVEN HIS OWN DENIALS ON THE MATTER.

Perhaps he is not for government wanting to run our livelihoods, but REALITY CHECK: PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING AND NEED HELP! DEMOCRACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT PEOPLE HELPING PEOPLE. We have become a selfish, consumerist society and this LIBERTARIAN DISGUISED AS A REPUBLICAN WILL DESTROY IT IN NO TIME, even if he does end the war. CHOICE MUST BE PROTECTED SO THAT WE CAN CHOOSE TO LIVE OUR LIVES IN DIGNITY, NOT BE FURTHER EXPLOITED. THE PARIS HILTONS MUST BE RUN OUT OF HERE!!!

The idea of Cynthia McKinney running sounds really, really sweet, to me. FEMINISTS SHE IS CALLING OUT TO YOU!!! LISTEN UP!!!

Bush is the Wingnut!
Posted by: dddienst on Nov 29, 2007 4:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush is the WingNut and since he took office he has screwed this country a little to tight. Time for a course correction.

» But so is Ron Paul!! Posted by: yellow
» RE: But so is Ron Paul!! Posted by: wishninja
» RE: But so is Ron Paul!! Posted by: Turiye
» RE: But so is Ron Paul!! Posted by: tjg1984
This guy is not worth any more (positive) attention
Posted by: thelostsailor on Nov 29, 2007 5:28 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, he's different than the rest of the GOP candidate goon squad. But he still stands for all kinds of horror. The better of bad apples is still a mostly rotten apple.

It would be a great thing to, instead of partially giving props to a Republican who isn't as evil as some of the others, give Dennis Kucinich all the props possible. The mainstream media never mentions this guys name- it's up to you. He seems to be the only good apple in the race and I know a huge amount of Alternet readers feel that way.
But much like the Mexican gay pornographer (that was awesome :)), he doesn't stand much of a chance. But at least he deserves a whole lot more Alternet pages than this RP goon who is only a thorn between several Sith Lords!

"Network"
Posted by: Dr T on Nov 29, 2007 6:51 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember the character Howard Beale in the 1976 movie Network and his famous line:

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore"

This fits Ron Paul.

And yes, I voted for him when he ran as a Libertarian in 1988.

wtrong wron wrongheadedd
Posted by: ark on Nov 29, 2007 7:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It would not be up to the state. Read the damn constitution before you make assertions such as this. What the legislation Paul proposed is attempting to do is make a fetus at conception a person in the context of the 14th Amendment:

----------------------
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
-----------------------

This cuts to the very heart of Paul's duplicity. This is not just something that would apply to a person who initiated violence against a pregnant woman. Even the pregnant woman could find herself facing murder charges. It would be easy to apply manslaughter laws to any number of behaviors not presently viewed in society as harmful acts. As I mentioned earlier; does a pregnant woman's regular exercise regimen increase the probability of a miscarriage? In manslaughter charges, intent need not be an element of the crime.

And Paul's proposal would remove it from the purview of the state, as civil rights charges under the 14th amendment would be brought into federal courthouses to be tried if the individual states did not. Paul's limiting of the 14th amendment's reach only affects homosexuals and transvestites. This is why many see him as being a hate-breeder. Paul supports the defense of marriage act, another piece of trash legislation which hides behind state's rights as it strips away humans' ability to freely enter into a relationship contract. There is no liberty to be found in that obscenity. Do not try to make others drink your Kool-aid. Learn the facts, don't spread others' lies.

Ron Paul may be able to end the Fascist Coup
Posted by: magus65 on Nov 29, 2007 7:26 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The dismantling of the Federal Reserve and the IRS are imperative to reclaim what was once a democratic republic from the fascist dictatorship that it has become.

If you don't understand this reasoning I suggest starting with Aaron Russo's "From Freedom to Fascism" then continue studying the situation for the next year or so. You will never have a voice on ANY issue if the unconstitutional Federal Reserve system is not tackled.

Ron Paul will try to do this. Kucinich will try to do this. I think Ron Paul has a better chance therefore I support Ron Paul with my political dollars.

Nattering about issues like abortion rights (which I personally support) and gay marriage (which I also support) is incosequential because under the current single nazi party regime with a false left right facade is just stupid. If you insist on being ignorant of what is really going on you will have No RIGHTS AT ALL as you live out a short brutal life in a FEMA concentration camp.

the Beauty of Alternet
Posted by: Ripcord on Nov 29, 2007 9:12 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No other forum allows such free input

and no other author but Josh has the guts to weigh in with thousands of us "wing-nuts:"

End result:
I've learned much about Ron Paul, Josh Holland, and many of my fellow commentors

» Ripcord, I am so with you Posted by: HeroesAll
Please do better research.
Posted by: tetraethyllead on Nov 29, 2007 9:40 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time I have found one of Dr. Paul's positions to be questionable I researched the topic more or went to Dr. Paul's extensive writings online and found his reasoning. In each case I found his views to be at worst, very reasonable.

You mention the Davis-Bacon Act... now this one I already knew having read about it in articles from Walter E. Williams. If you knew the *REAL* reason this law exists, you may want to repeal it too. The reasoning behind the act is to price inexperienced black workers out of the market such that those established in a trade won't face new competition. Read Dr. Williams's articles on it if you don't believe me.

I could go issue by issue on why Ron Paul is correct. However, that would distract from my overall point. Ron Paul's views are entirely logical, rational, and well informed *IF* a person is willing to spend the time to research the topic and read/listen to Dr. Paul on it. The views only seem crazy to people who's beliefs have been formed by the mainstream media and the TV. Ron Paul has researched beyond that superficial level and so should everyone else, especially those who think that it is discrediting of him to just rattle off topics like you have.

Of course you have to bring up the long settled and explained writings... come on, with that you reduce yourself to writing another smear piece and a non-creative one at that.

If you really want to attack Ron Paul, do it fair and square intellectually. Research the topics and then propose your view and support it. You'll be hard-pressed to do so better than Dr. Paul does with his views.

McCain looked like a moron without the slightest grasp of history beyond what he remembered from a 3rd grade film strip last night when he was arguing against Dr. Paul's foreign policy view, but at least he tried to argue that interventionism was a better way using an example of history.

Dr. Paul's plan for social security may be radical surgery for a terminal patient, but that's a hell of a lot better than twiddle our thumbs and wait or inflate our way out by destroying everyone's savings. Under Rudy or the others everyone will still get social security benefits... they'll just be lucky to buy a loaf of bread with the monthly check.

Josh, No Mention of "Strict Constitutionalist" - Maybe You Don't Value the Constitution or the BoR
Posted by: lacyth on Nov 30, 2007 3:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You totally missed “Strict Constitutionalist”.
A lot, perhaps most of his supporters consider
that the strongest reason to support him.
You do know what the Constitution and the
Bill of Rights are don’t you?
You might try searching on Wikipedia to
come up to speed.

This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
About WINGNUTS
Posted by: richardbee on Nov 30, 2007 5:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The are some very good things about WINGNUTS ! They are mechanically efficient, easy to tighten or untighten by hand without tools - WINGNUTS are easy to UNSCREW.
One can only hope that Ron Paul will be elected so that as a 'political wingnut' he can UNSCREW the partisan and corrupt SCREW-UP that defines American and global politicking. The world is being screwed by inter-connected special interest groups whose originators effectively 'own' and control the global political system for self-interest. Dr. Paul is an increasing rush of fresh air in a system overcome with the noxious fumes of payola and corruption.
Ron Paul will put America and the World on the 'right track' - where individual rights and freedoms are more important than Corporate return on investment.
One can only believe that Dr. Paul's detractors are not interested in individual freedom, but are becoming increasingly scared that their economic and fiscal control is about to be usurped.
On this basis being a WINGNUT can't be a bad thing.
I'd be proud to be a WINGNUT too !!!

» RE: Best post by a WINGNUT Posted by: Ripcord
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