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Rights and Liberties

Fear, Hate and Hand Grenades: Extremists' Unrelenting Assault on Immigrants

By Tara McKelvey, The American Prospect. Posted November 7, 2007.


Northern Virginia residents are hell-bent on driving undocumented immigrants away. With demonstrations and lawsuits, the immigrants are fighting back.
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It was a May afternoon in Washington's meridian Hill Park. Forty-year-old Ricardo Juarez Nava was at a rally in support of immigrants when he saw a neatly dressed man approaching the group. As it turned out, the man, Tyler J. Froatz Jr., was protesting the rally and had brought along an anti-immigration flyer (a crudely drawn illustration of border officers firing on an immigrant with the caption, "THE ONLY WAY TO STOP A FLOOD ..."), and a back- pack with a claw hammer, a Taser, and pepper spray inside. Froatz, who is 24 and a New Jersey native, also had a fully automatic M1 carbine rifle in the trunk of his car.

"He was pushing and trying to fight with me. He had a knife here," Juarez says, gesturing toward a front pocket in his jeans as he describes Froatz's efforts to disrupt the pro-immigration rally, which had been organized by a local group Juarez founded called Mexicans Without Borders. After Froatz's arrest, police discovered a hand grenade, a Molotov cocktail, and 1,000 rounds of ammunition in his Northwest Washington apartment.

On the afternoon of our September interview, four months after the assault, Juarez is sitting in a bookstore in Woodbridge, Virginia, sipping coffee. One of 12 children, Juarez was raised in Mexico by his widowed mother, who did laundry and sold firewood to support the family. He attended Mexico City's School of Sciences and Humanities and came to the United States in April 1995, where he found work in construction. In 2002 he founded Mexicans Without Borders to provide legal advice, counseling, and other kinds of support for immigrants in the Mid-Atlantic region.

For Juarez, it has been a rocky summer. In July, members of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors took aggressive steps against undocumented immigrants in Woodbridge and other cities in the county where Juarez lives. The July 10 county resolution passed by the Prince William Board recommended restricting such public services as access to senior centers for undocumented residents. The still more controversial aspect of the resolution instructs police to check into the immigration status of suspected illegals who have been detained -- even for minor traffic violations; previously, police had checked on the immigration status only of those accused of violent crimes.

The resolution is the most stringent anti-illegal immigrant measure to be passed in Virginia. It was first drafted in June with the help of a 1,850-member group called Help Save Manassas, which works to oppose illegal aliens. After the resolution was approved in July, a series of public meetings on the details took place this fall. As the Prospect went to press, the board was still debating how to implement the restriction of services to illegal immigrants and whether to provide training for police in checking on immigration status at a total cost of roughly $14 million; the vote had yet to be scheduled.

Juarez and Mexicans Without Borders, which now has approximately 3,000 members, have been fighting the board's efforts. They organized a week-long boycott of local businesses that had not supported their organization (the group had asked businesses to display posters) and brought more than 3,000 people to a Sept. 2 rally at the seat of the Prince William County government. During the rally, Juarez stood close to a microphone and -- over a frayed sound system --shouted to his followers. "Our constitutional and civil rights are being violated by this resolution," he said. "We are taking the case to court against the county of Prince William." The crowd broke into thunderous cheers and applause.

There have been death threats by e-mail, angry phone calls, and accusations from Republican county leaders that Mexicans Without Borders is trying to bully its opponents and whip up fear and hysteria in the Hispanic community. Meanwhile, bloggers and activists are investigating to see if Juarez and his family are legal, and have been posting their (inconclusive) findings on a Web site, Black Velvet Bruce Li, considered "the most influential local blog in Virginia" by some in the anti- illegal immigrant community.

"There are messages by e-mail that say they are going to kill me," Juarez says. He pulls on the collar of his red, checked shirt, fiddles with one of the buttons, and looks down at the table. "I don't want anyone to kill me."

Prince William County is a comfortable, though traffic-clogged, community 30 miles southwest of Washington, D.C. The county, like the rest of the area, has undergone demographic changes. In greater D.C., the Hispanic population has doubled over the past two decades, according to U.S. Census data. In 2005 the Pew Hispanic Center estimated that roughly 250,000 illegal immigrants live in Virginia and, as happens with any dramatic influx of immigrants, they are blamed for an array of problems: crowded elementary school classrooms and hospital emergency rooms; violent gang activity; run-down rental units in residential neighborhoods; even the high cost of diapers for newborns in a hospital maternity ward.


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What's new?
Posted by: JPHickey on Nov 7, 2007 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as I'm concerned, this is a long article with next to nothing new to contribute. I suppose the editors modified the wording in the beginning to throw immigrants in with undocumented immigants, illegal aliens, etc into one pot just to stirr up those of us otherwise liberal leanings.

As a legal citizen of the U.S., disabled and over 65, I am concerned about the destruction of the safety net, leaving those of us who need help the most up the creek without a paddle.

Even without the growing numbers of illegal aliens, things coming along poorly for us already, and geting worse with each passing day.

As far as I'm concerned, our lives as citizens are aready ending up without adequate support for our basic needs, with whatever benefits we have left being whittled down at every opportunity.

Those of you "winners" who have it made have compassion for illegal aliens but just sweep your own people under the carpet to be ignored, while you donate to the ACLU and consider illegal aliens to be the only underdogs who are worth bothering with.

Assuming that all is well with the disbled, elderly, poor, and otherwise needs demonstrates just how callous the so-called liberals have become. What's with you people anyway? Why do you go out of your way to extend a helping hand to illegal aliens without giving a second-though to our own citizen?

Also, as a Veteran, I am not exactly enthralled by the consistant bluster to open America's doors and coffers to illegal aliens while failing to give a second-thought about the state of our own Veterans.

Many Veterans suffer from invisible, but devistating permanent injuries including concussions as well as toxic damage from chemicals and radioactive exposures.

Giving illegal aliens precidence over our Veterans, or elderly, disabled, isn't the good cause that the writer has attempted to portray, as least as far as I'm concerned.

Once more I want to remind you that illegal aliens are indeed a threat to me personally as they have already horned in on my life at every turn, form taking odd jobs, on to the food bank, and the emergency rooms.

People I know have had illegal aliens steal their social security numbers and use these to take jobs that our own citizens would have otherwise.

Many illegal aliens are no doubt wonderfully warm and fine people, but as workers they are so compliant, humiliated, and easy to otherwise abuse. Many employers apparently prefer the use of cheap easy to humiliate labor over our own citizens who still believe in the value of Constitutional Rights and are willing to stand up to be counted!

Not that the employment situation in Arizona respectes Constitutional rights anyway, being a "Right to Work" state, and I have yet to hear about the ACLU choosing to undertake any cases in these areas.

Really things are already bad enough without being forced to compete with illegal aliens for the few remaining bread crumbs that slip through the cracks and get down to those of us at the bottom.

Unfortunately, AlterNet is outof-touch with what's really happening to the United States, but articles like the above give me a very poor impression of the motives behind them!

Finally, a question. "What do AlterNet liberals and Marie Antonette have in common?" Answer: "Let them eat cake!"

» RE: The word Alien Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: The word Alien Posted by: odanu
» RE: The word Alien Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: What's new? Posted by: rocketman
» RE: What's new? Posted by: Jim Shaw
» RE: What's new? Posted by: Old Skeptic
» RE: What's new? Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: What's new? Posted by: Knot_Rich
This author has a logic problem.... maybe she has not had any courses....
Posted by: Pepper on Nov 7, 2007 5:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... relationships between basic premises and conclusions. First she says (first premise), that the population of Illegals have dramatically increased in Virginia to the tune of over 250,000 and then makes a completely illogical leap to say that given that number, the locals there blame the illegals unjustly for problems on their systems.

Duh, well, what do you think an influx of non english speaking people with no medical insurance, no training driving on American roads, no cultural acclimation given like we do with legal immigrants, no medical testing or shots before entry bringing in diseases otherwise erradicated here in this country until this influx began, such as Hep C. Or if you empty out the prisons and those criminals then relocate WITHOUT ANY CLEARANCE OF RECORD to then bring that with them to this country and we don't know about it until they begin their criminal activities here???

Just what in the heck did you think locals would do about it??? This authors denial of the problems is typical and mind boggling. This is simply one more element of the neocons determination to regionalize this nation without a discussion or vote of the people or their representatives with an open agenda that we can all see.

Its not just the issues involved, its the total disregard for the rule of law, the process and the right of the citizens of this nation to enforce their laws. If you don't like it, CHANGE THE DAMN LAWS. There is a reason immigrants are forced to go through a process to get here. Its not only for the communities benefit but for the immigrant themselves. Give me a break that she can't see the obvious. What is wrong with peoples brains..... too much fast food??? Tooo many chemicals in prepared foods??? Genetically engineered and modified foods???? Something is seriously affecting our "common sense" and analytical thinking skills.

Its scary, frankly, more so than Bush himself, which is pretty bad.

Why is it a controversy to battle illegals?
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 7, 2007 6:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow god forbid tax payers don’t want illegals in their community, using resources they don’t pay into. The fact is Hispanics DO create most of the gang activity in NOVA and probably elsewhere in the country. I’m sorry but that is a fact. What is so controversial in fighting ILLEGAL aliens? If you’ve ever been to NOVA the first thing you might notice is how over populated it is not just with Hispanics but more and more with Russians as well.

» Jail the employers Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Jail the employers Posted by: Jefferson's Guardian
If government won't do anything then people will.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Nov 7, 2007 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has ALWAYS been the case; whether in the USA or in Iraq. This is why it is imperative for the government (Federal, State, and Local) to solve this illegal immigration problem with an immediate 'crackdown' and then a sane policy of legal immigration. Seal the borders. Having a quick and easy way of legal immigration (with background checks, income checks, and skill tests.) Track legal immigrants after entry by a process. Path to citizenship for some. Others on time-related permit linked with specific job. Bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan and use them to help solve the illegal immigration and border problem. Severe fines and/or criminal penalties for people, and businesses, who hire illegals (increasing fines based on low wages, # of illegals, and past convictions.)
Yes, people can, and will eventually, take defence into their own hands but this is not ideal. People, usually, aren't trained, don't understand the whole scope of the problem, and the illegals can get violent in response. This is why the government must solve the problem.

» It is very simple, really. Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Public Schools in California are among the nation's worst
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 7, 2007 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Public Schools in California are among the nation's worst. They used to be the best. But now they are filled with students learning English coming from families to do not even speak English basics. California needs to assimilate millions of non-English speaking children into our schools in ways that do NOT "dumb down" learning for native English speakers. How do we do that? Our schools are predominantly filled with immigrants and the curriculum is designed for fluent children. Public school classrooms are rapidly losing native English speakers to private schools or homeschooling.

Illegals talk about their rights being violated.

What about the rights of citizen taxpayers to a DECENT free education for their citizen children?

» MadMac Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Rabid talk Posted by: DesertStone
I think Mexico needs a taste of it's own medicine
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 7, 2007 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think Mexico needs a taste of it's own medicine. How about 12 million US citizens travel to Mexico for a month (all at once) and demand our rights to free medical, welfare, English in their schools, etc...

Yanno what Mexico does with illegals from their southern border???
Bullets and prison.

If they want us to have a borderless society, so should they.

Consequences
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Nov 7, 2007 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush's corporate-inspired permissiveness toward illegal aliens for their low-wage labor has made violence inevitable. We need a President who will defend our borders and our economic integrity!

Interesting points all around.
Posted by: constitution, what constitution on Nov 7, 2007 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having grown up in NOVA (more specifically PWC I'm ashamed to say) I have witnessed this massive influx of immigrants. The infrastructure of these counties has indeed taken a massive hit for many of the reasons Pepper pointed out.

Go to the ER of Potomac Hospital on any given day. The waits are longer because they can't turn away the people without insurance (granted Potomac Hospital's ER was never efficient to begin with). Myself and more than one of my friends have been hit by an unlicensed, uninsured driver.

These issues are easily resolved. Immigration reform! I'm not up to date on the amount of time needed to properly process an immigrant, but I'm sure it's not a very quick turnaround. I'd venture a guess at 7 years being an average (what?! even with our super efficient federal government?!). Make it easier to get citizenship. Let these people that want to come to the US come.

I worked construction for a few summers on breaks from college. During this time I had the opportunity to meet many latinos as well as practice my Spanish. 90 per cent of these immigrants want to be assimilated. They look forward (as much as one can) to voting, taxes, etc. Several of them even had false Social Security numbers under which they paid taxes. My personal experiences are why I cringe when the likes of Stewart and people like him denounce an entire group.

CHANGE THE LAWS!

For the record: Manasshole has never been looked upon favorably. When Woodbridge looks down on you, you know you're bad.

» RE: Interesting points all around. Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
So much for the law and order crowd ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Nov 7, 2007 7:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Usually it's 'what part of illegal don't you understand?' and 'just enforce the laws on the books.' Apparently, the irony of those same people being fine and dandy with folks bringing hand grenades to peaceful protests is lost on them.

When it comes to a foreigner committing a misdemeanor, now that's a serious law enforcement issue. Ignoring it will lead to anarchy! But getting it into your mind to waste a bunch of immigrants, now that's just Americans defending themselves and there's nothing wrong with that, is there?

It's very telling.

» I'd say nice try, but it really isn't Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Correction Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Correction Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: Correction Posted by: anonymous black writer
pocomoco
Posted by: pocomoco on Nov 7, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do we even use terms such as undocumented immigrants and illegal aliens? Why not call a spade a spade? They are unlawful criminals. If this term was used constantly by the news media and others then people who have their heads in the sand may realize that they have no rights in this country. I am tired of hearing how they just want to support their family. I want to support my family and I do but I'm not breaking laws to do it.

» RE: pocomoco Posted by: madmac10
I'm skeptical...
Posted by: 3fgburner on Nov 7, 2007 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... at least about the hand grenade. My guess is that it was probably a dummy. Why am I skeptical? Because of the author's obvious incompetence with regard to firearms. Quote: "Froatz, who is 24 and a New Jersey native, also had a fully automatic M1 carbine rifle in the trunk of his car."

Before I go further with that, let me preface my comments with this: I hold no brief for Mr. Froatz, who is in my opinion a thug. Illegal immigration needs to be addressed legislatively, not violently. That said, I have to ding Ms. McKelvey on her writing.

A firearm is either a rifle, or a carbine, not both. The M1 rifle and M1 carbine are two different guns, both of World War II vintage. NEITHER of them is, or can be made, "fully automatic".

The author is also impressed that Mr. Froatz had over 1,000 rounds of ammunition in his apartment. I've got news for her. If you want decent prices on ammunition, 1,000 rounds is usually the break point for discount pricing. A lot of us keep 1,000 or more rounds of each caliber we shoot. This is almost as funny as Governor Tim Kaine (VA)'s wide-eyed amazement when he heard that Seung-Hui Cho had over two hundred rounds on him.

» RE: I'm skeptical... Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: I'm skeptical... Posted by: jbur816
Keep It Simple (for the) Suckers!
Posted by: madmac10 on Nov 7, 2007 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Illegal Immigration is such a great vote-getter--especially for a washed up political party that has done nothing but lead its constituents to ruin. Republicans in Virginia are wringing their hands as they watch their state turn blue before their eyes. But, hey, falling back on hate has always been a trump card for Virginia's politics.

Hopefully, they can take a tremendously complex issue and simplify it enough to swing voters their way. (Harumph) Well, here's a problem: our infrastructure has been stretched to the limit (just don't squeak about who let it get that way with their other simplistic mantra: don't tax me!) Must be those immigrants. They talk about us in Spanish, I know they do! They are planning to take away everything our ancestral slaves built for us. Vote for me, and you'll keep me relevant! I'll be damned if I can actually do anything about it, but hopefully something else will come along next election cycle that I can take advantage of.

Happily, a lot of these electioneers got their hats handed to them this week. More happily still, the people who see their rights threatened can take the fight further than the ballot box. I, for one, am right behind them.

I've lived in the Washington area all my life: I remember a day when the white male establishment ran things. They were bullies and racists, and when they didn't have blacks or women to beat up, they beat up poor white folks. And their sons are still there, just itching for their gandpappy's days to come back. Believe me: things are MUCH better in this region these days BECAUSE of the influx of Latino workers. They could be better still if the everyone worth more than a million dollars in Virginia were taxed another twenty percent. But that is too simplistic a proposition, isn't it?

Time for an open and honest debate.
Posted by: synapse on Nov 7, 2007 8:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here we go again.

An open borders proponent attempts to use the guilt by association tactic to malign Americans who support secure borders and enforcement of immigration laws by finding an extreme outlier case.

The same author would complain loudly if someone were to imply that since more than 90% of methamphetamine is manufactured and brought in by Mexican drug cartels that, therefore, most or all illegal aliens are drug dealers. Or, the fact that the violent South American gangs like MS13 are proliferating across the U.S. that most illegal teens are involved in such gangs. What about the radical members of La Raza and similar groups who espouse their racial supremacy and the Reconquista? How about the Latino gangs in Los Angeles engaging in racial cleansing by murdering innocent African Americans? Then there is the case of the illegal alien on trial in my state for the violent murder of his girlfriend, he tied her by the neck to the back of his car and drove through the streets at night until she was virtually decapitated. There are also many cases of animal cruelity from a culture that enjoys cock fighting and dog fights. It would not be fair to say the people involved in these activities represent the typical illegal immigrant.

Charges of hate or racism against supporters of immigration reform does nothing but stifle dissent. I am no racist, I am a minority from a working poor background. I have experienced hunger and malnutrition, cold in the winter, and lack of access to health care and medicine during times of acute illness. I know how difficult it is to get ahead or even keep your head above water, even for those of us who have managed to get a college education and have never been in trouble with the law. There so many people heavily impacted by wage depression who live below the radar but they are rarely or never the concern of neoliberal or neoconservative open border ideologues except for occasional lip service. Perhaps one of the best illustrations of this unseen society of America's poor came from the book Nickel and Dimed, On Not Getting By In America written by Barbara Ehrenreich.


There are legitimate concerns involved with mass and illegal immigration:

Overpopulation and environmental destruction.

Balkanization undermining representative government and leading to ethnic tensions.

Multiculturalism eroding community involvement in civic affairs (a conclusion supported by studies).

Erosion of the safety net for America's poor and disabled.

Further weakening of the health care and education systems.

Moving away from the ideals of sustainable development.


The next level of worry is that we are allowing our national sovereignty to be undermined for the sake of increased profits for multinational companies at the expense of working and middle class Americans. Of course, this refers to the long sought goal of regional government run by an international elite group of corporate powerbrokers.

The establishment of regional and global governance requires that citizens relinquish what little say they have over their working conditions, their environmental controls, educational standards, and health care choices. This is about the further centralization of economic and political power into the hands of the few. It is a form of neofuedalism that may be packaged to the public as their road to prosperity and security but it is a wolf in sheep's clothing for people who do not want to eventually find themselves in society as marginal and draconian as China.

We need to have an open and honest discussion about all of the ramifications of our immigration policies that, IMO, have been deliberately pursued to foster wage depression, social disenfranchisement, and loss of representative government.

» RE: Time for an open and honest debate. Posted by: anonymous black writer
» You first Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: You first Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: You first Posted by: Joshua Holland
Surreal
Posted by: willymack on Nov 7, 2007 9:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's get this straight: Illegals are parading in public, thus exposing themselves to all and sundry, and DEMANDING THEIR RIGHTS, when in reality, the ONLY "right " they have is the right to be deported. Has this gotten crazy or what? Only in a society dominated by a shadow government is such insanity possible. I feel for those less fortunate than Americans; hell, I LIKE Mexicans and others from Latin America, but we've got our OWN problems (including crooks who get rich off unfortunates who are here illegally) to solve. The days of limitless land and horizons are long gone, and we have far too many people in this country LEGALLY who are in dire need of relief from the thugs in Washington to be a sanctuary for those from OTHER dictatorships. Where do we run to when things turn to dust here? We all know the answer to that one.

» RE: Surreal Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: More than human rights Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: More than human rights Posted by: Joshua Holland
» It's Simple, Really... Posted by: madmac10
Interesting how AlterNet always becomes so PRO-BUSINESS...
Posted by: war_on_tara on Nov 7, 2007 9:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...whenever it addresses this issue!

Business owners who serve mainly immigrants are opposed to the resolution because they will lose (and are already losing) business; many business owners who employ undocumented workers, including construction companies, also oppose the resolution....

Those poor downtrodden BUSINESS OWNERS - we must get the government to stop picking on them!

» okay, fair enough Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: okay, fair enough Posted by: Joshua Holland
What most people miss in the discussion about illegal aliens
Posted by: Libsrule on Nov 7, 2007 10:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is simple.

The longview. What will the influx of tens of millions of illegal aliens to do America? How can the influx of these tens of millions of poor, uneducated, unskilled, and constantly using our resources while providing...what? Cheap lawnwork? Cheap babysitters? Saving 25 cents on a head of lettuce?

Although illegals do contribute to the tax system, they are a net drain financially, even considering the taxes they contribute. There are simply too many of them. Further, they take jobs that should go to our own middle class and poorer citizens, and would if they were not here. Their presence depresses wages for all lower strata jobs and causes small businesses to lose business to those who hire the illegals and therefore can undercut their job bids. Many small construction and similar businesses are struggling because to compete successfully they would have to dump their current employees and hire illegals like their competition already has. Illegals are a huge drain on public health and education, consuming resources that should go to help legal citizens. Because I'm basically a liberal, I am against illegal immigration because the persons it hurts the most are the poorer classes, both illegals and our own needy citizens.

It would be great if America and society could still afford unlimited immigration, but those days are gone. Our natural resources are strained with the number of people we have NOW - adding a million illegals per year will simply bring us to emergency that much sooner. What good will it have done us to let everyone in who wants to come, when by doing so we are insuring that our infrastructure, public services and water, electricity, etc., won't be able to handle it, leaving us all in want? Will people finally learn once the US turns into an overpopulated sinkhole where no one but the wealthy can survive? It is already predicted that rolling blackouts and brownouts are expected to be a regular occurrence starting in a few years, because of demand on the energy infrastructure and lack of natural resources - how much worse will it be when we are adding a million users per year that are illegals, in addition to the normal modes of population increase? We are already fighting over water supplies in the west and southwest. The old world is gone, and we have to make hard choices. We are no longer living in the 1800's or even early 1900’s where we welcomed and needed all we could get to come here.

Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration. He even led marches to the Mexican border to protest illegals. He knew it would hurt those he was working hardest for; the poor legal immigrants who could not compete with illegals who will be willing to work for even less wages. He worked hard to get legal immigrants better rights in the fields.

We are digging our own graves with our misguided generosity. We are paying for a badly run war that is going beyond all normal reason and was started on false premises. We are paying for a poorly run Medicare system. We are paying for corporate welfare. And we are going to suffer if our infrastructure is allowed to stand in the deteriorating condition it is. We can no longer afford to welcome everyone who wants to come here. Sure, I wish it were different - but times have changed.

Thanks for the acknowledgement of the pitting of immigrant vs "illegal" dirty trick.
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 7, 2007 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, you'll hear stuff like NoVA is diverse, yata yata yata. However, a closer look will tell you that Fairfax and Arlington counties are getting too crowded that the sprawl is now extending on to Prince William and Loudoun counties and in those counties there's a lot of racial discrimination. Those counties used to be rural but for the past decade farmlands have been BULLDOZED and RAPED to make room for "business". Ironically, even while Loudoun and Prince William counties made headlines throughout the state of curtailing illegals, those same counties still go out of their ways to "legalize" ILLEGAL labor. As for the rest of the state? There's a growing cancer of ILLEGAL near-SLAVE labor even as people wail about "illegals taking away their jobs". While I don't live in NoVA, thank GOD, I still have to go there time and again for business purposes. The irony is the heavy sprawl isn't caused so much by the "illegals" as they are by simply everyone wanting to drive and spend like there's no tomorrow even while not taking public transportation seriously. As a matter of fact, people who have lived there have told me that 9 out of 10 metro buses that pass them by have a "NOT IN SERVICE" logo on the front. As for the outer suburbs / exurbs, over 70% of the newer buildings, homes, apartments, etc ... in PW and Loudoun come from ILLEGAL labor and there are no penalties against employers hiring ILLEGAL labor. It's so disgusting out there I don't even want to say anymore about the mess in that part of the state lest I puke !

Canada
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 7, 2007 11:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Canada is an under populated vast nation. Why do so many illegals stop moving once they have reached the US? I bet they would be welcomed in Canada. Not to mention Canada loses members of it’s poulatioon to illegal immigration as well. There are huge numbers of illegals Canadians in the NE currently.

» RE: Canada Posted by: settebello
Immigrants Are Here To Stay, Illegal Or Not
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Nov 7, 2007 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All over the country governments are proposing wacky, zany legislation to prevent a certain group of people for seeking a better life here. And we know some of them are without proper documentation, but even a piece of paper will not prevent others from moving.
Just because a government says you need to prove your existence on paper with numbers on it doesn't mean everyone will adhere to it. People from other countries may not have any documents when they cross the imaginary border. For them, it's a matter of life and death.
People fear something they cannot understand; and immigration has always been an emotional subject for us. All arguments say they're here to "take" "our jobs" or "cause crime" or some other side effect of modern society, but they're too easy of a target to blame America's problems at their doorstep. Drafting legislation to keep them out will not work.
Most nations have some sort of immigration problem; Anglo birth rates are dropping in Europe and in the U.S.A. Guess whose numbers are rising faster? Guess which ethnic group would fill the nation's factories and businesses? Are we afraid of a brown country?
Census data chronicles birth rates of industrialized nations and each of these countries-Germany, Sweden, Denmark, for example, have seen their birth rates decline for over a 20-year period and this has caused each country to make up the serious labor shortage by finding workers in different countries, mainly from Turkey and from the Middle East; here we get our labor supply from Mexico and from various Latin American countries.
With this labor infusion comes the by-products of an immigrant labor force the culture collisions, where people in Hazleton, Pennsylvania, Cochise County, Arizona, Woodbridge, Virginia and elsewhere are having a hard time understanding why they won't integrate into the mainstream. The ceviche meets the hamburger at some intersection in your town.
Even in Los Angeles, where I live, people seethe with anger about the numbers of immigrants who roam our streets. But no one really knows who is what just because we attempt to slap a label on them as if they were mayonnaise jars.
No one has an answer to this, even as leading sociologists try to provide us with one. But bullying them and threats of force only exacerbate the problem.
One thing is certain: no matter where you live, people will move, to find a better life-and legislation or arbitrary borders will not stop movement of people. They're dying to get here.
So to all the Minutemen, please go home and let's not Warsaw Ghettoize this country by erecting walls and electronic fences along the southern border. We have to find a way to accommodate them without hate and resentment. Each act of violence will only beget violence. Are we no longer a compassionate nation? What is our response now?
There was a time when strangers were welcomed here, but we no longer play music.

Are we a nation of laws or not?
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Nov 7, 2007 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every nation has the absolute right, under national sovereignty, to accept or reject would-be immigrants. When illegal aliens sneak into our country, they deprive us of that right. When they take American jobs, they are depriving the lowest-skilled, least-educated Americans of unskilled jobs at a living wage. Because of the easy availability of cheap, illegal alien labor, Americans simply can't afford to work at many unskilled jobs anymore, because the employers have cut the salaries and benefits so drastically. Illegals will take the jobs and then often crowd 15-20 into a house or apartment, becoming a neighborhood nuisance. Other comments have touched on other abuses by illegal aliens: using our ERs for minor or routine medical care then stiffing the hospitals on the bills, having "anchor babies", which essentially amounts to stealing US citizenship for the babies, and eventually, the parents hope, for themselves.

Some say that because the aliens are here, we can't get rid of them. Nonsense! We need to drop this politically correct nonsense and return to being a nation of laws! Are we a nation of laws, or only when it doesn't offend anyone?

IMO, what we need to do is to increase the numbers of the Border Patrol to whatever it takes to seal off our border. We should prosecute illegal aliens and put them in jail for at least a few weeks, then deport them. We should do whatever is necessary to eliminate "anchor babies": if it requires a constitutional amendment, then so be it. We need a biometric Social Security card that can't easily be tampered with and no one should be hired, even to mow lawns, unless he/she can show a valid card. For larger employers, electronic verification of ID should be instituted. Be sure that all governmental support services are distributed to US citizens and legal immigrants only! Enforce our laws against hiring illegal aliens and punish employers.

Do these things and a large proportion of illegal aliens will self-deport. No jobs + no freebies + no anchor babies= no illegal aliens, IMO.

» You tell us ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» They keep telling me that ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
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» RE: Are we a nation of laws or not? Posted by: anonymous black writer
Deportations of legal aliens increasing
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 7, 2007 1:18 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all the frenzy that illegals have created concerning immigration ICE is now deporting legal aliens for the most minor offenses. The Hispanic communities that lobby for illegals are rarely concerned with human rights or fair immigration reform in general as they are for Hispanics specifically. I have known people who have lived legally in the US for literally decades only to be deported for a series of minor issues. This was not the case before the frenzy over illegal immigration and overpopulation in the past several years.

Imperialism a source for immigration woes
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 7, 2007 1:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another important issue is the US government’s aid of foreign governments that are corrupt and abusive. It is a fact that the US enables and supports corruption in various parts of the world which is a root cause of immigrant’s coming into the US. It is not entirely fair for Americans to act like victims of immigration.

A correction
Posted by: SOWILO on Nov 7, 2007 1:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I meant the writings of AUGUSTO BOAL, who wrote the annoying tract "Theatre of the Oppressed."

Americans believe in the rule of law
Posted by: Bettybb on Nov 7, 2007 2:18 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank God Americans still know right from wrong.
Thank God Americans still believe in the rule of law, one law for everyone, applied equally.
Thank God Americans still believe we are a country of laws.

We know illegal immigration is wrong, racist, preferrential, and will undermine the very existence of our country.

So we are going to put a stop to it.

And we DO NOT reward lawbreakers. No amnesty.

DIP (Democratic lllegal Party, formerly the Democratic Party) just wants to increase its hispanic voter numbers.

Neo Cons like Rudy just want to cater to dishonest businessness.

Anti-legal immigration supporters of illegals just want to bring in more hispanics/

Americans know what is right even if these others don't.

Howard Bloom on racism.
Posted by: SOWILO on Nov 7, 2007 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is Howard Bloom, a Jew, intellectual, and author of "The Lucifer Principle" on racism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2ykoJqoIyw

America Will BE Hispanic, Will Anglos Be "The Illegals" Then?
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 7, 2007 3:11 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like it or not, based on US census figures, America in a few decades will be primarily Hispanic and not Anglo anymore. Much of this debate centers around the fear Anglos have of Hispanics. Fact is, who defines what America is? Why do Anglos think they have a monopoly on this? Here in Miami, if you are an Anglo, you are in the minority. Now, we could define you as therefore "an illegal" if you want, which some Anglos seem to do with all Hispanics. As for Spanish versus English, perhaps America will have (2) languages or more in the future, what is the problem with this? Lots of European countries have more than one language commonly used. A lot of Europeans immigrated to the USA especially before the Great Depression, now it is a lot of Hispanics. So, the face of America is changing, get use to it. The USA had no problem back then letting in millions of Europeans, why the big problem now with Hispanics? Get over the racism issue Anglos, if this is your problem.

» RE: the difference Posted by: DesertStone
Here We Go Again...
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Nov 7, 2007 3:21 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another pro-illegal immigration article on Alternet. Sems like there's one on this forum at least once a week. Nobody seems to agree with it, but the corporate/globalist propaganda just flows out like a river. Why do the owners of Alternet keep trying to pass off this b*llshit, when everybody is on to them? Just stop it already.

By the way, one of the reasons lower-class Americans vote for Repugs is because neither party addresses their economic concerns, so they may as well vote for "values" candidates who match them in social attitudes. Illegal immigration drives down wages, and Repugs support it because it helps big business at the expense of the working class. Now, we see "progressives" supporting it because of identity politics and exaggerated concern for hispanics over the general public. Way to go, self-styled progressives...your're just costing the Dems working-class votes when you give public support to illegal aliens.

» RE: Here We Go Again... Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: Here We Go Again... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Ditto!!!! Posted by: Pepper
» Why people vote Republican Posted by: YogiBear
mick3
Posted by: mick3 on Nov 7, 2007 3:24 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ah, the enlightened South, where the color of your skin determines all, very important when you're an ignorant, useless piece of trash with nothing whatsoever to offer society. When you know you're little or nothing, you just have to label someone else as below you, and best yet, without having to do a single intelligent or useful thing yourself. How great is that?

Lincoln had it all wrong. He should have cut the South loose to drown in its own incompetence, ignorance, religiosity, and overall stupidity. Just think of the rise in average IQ and overall decency for the rest of the nation.

» RE: mick3 Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: mick3 Posted by: bcgirl125
» RE: mick3 Posted by: anonymous black writer
Economic Variation of Hispanics Imacts "Legal" or "Illegal" Immigration Status
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 7, 2007 3:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the way, I am not in favor of any racism, and if it is Hispanics against Anglos, I consider that wrong. However, it is easy to have a pretty strong reaction to things (as in this article) if you are Hispanic. But, what is not realized here are a couple of things. Hispanic is just a term that derives from Spanish ancestry. It's not a "pure" or even well defined ethnic or racial group. You also have a great deal of variation between so-called Hispanic or Latin American countries. In the Southwest USA, most of "the Hispanics" are of Mexican background, however, here in Florida, most are of Cuban background. And, this group is legally here in the USA, they are automatically given asylum if they reach American soil. The attitude in the Southwest USA is a lot different because of this when it comes to Hispanics. Also, many of the people from Mexico come from a poor or impoverished background as well as illegally. However, with Miami's Cubans, many had a LOT of money when they left decades ago and that has continued. It is also true that Miami has many of the wealthy that left Venezuela and Columbia with the changes in those countries. Again, this is a much wealthier group than the poor Mexicans who crossed the border in the West. It is these economic differences that make these groups "more desirable" (as defined by DHS/US Immigration) when it comes being able to legally immigrate, and many have done so.

WOW surprise surprise the whackjobs are out in force
Posted by: DaBear on Nov 7, 2007 3:58 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My kids go to school in CA, public school, just over half Latino, A little under that Euro-Ams (melanin deficient people). They're fine, both in GATE, which is not surprisingly a little over half Latino....

I'm grateful for gun ownership, though I can't afford any at this point, from the looks of the white supremacists and neo-nazi whackjobs posting here today, I may need to cough up the bucks and own some to protect my Jewishy family and my melanin-rich neighbors from y'all.

Instead of nuking Iran, we outta just nuke NoVA and other white supremacist hotspots... how's that fer a lil reneck logic.

We are far too many on this earth, far too dependent on each other, far too interconnected to tolerate this kind of racist, 20th century bullshit any longer. Love your neighbor, dammit, even he don't look just like your fat stupid white self.

Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
There is reason for all of us to be leftist extremists
Posted by: Raybo on Nov 7, 2007 4:10 PM