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Rights and Liberties

Fear, Hate and Hand Grenades: Extremists' Unrelenting Assault on Immigrants

By Tara McKelvey, The American Prospect. Posted November 7, 2007.


Northern Virginia residents are hell-bent on driving undocumented immigrants away. With demonstrations and lawsuits, the immigrants are fighting back.
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It was a May afternoon in Washington's meridian Hill Park. Forty-year-old Ricardo Juarez Nava was at a rally in support of immigrants when he saw a neatly dressed man approaching the group. As it turned out, the man, Tyler J. Froatz Jr., was protesting the rally and had brought along an anti-immigration flyer (a crudely drawn illustration of border officers firing on an immigrant with the caption, "THE ONLY WAY TO STOP A FLOOD ..."), and a back- pack with a claw hammer, a Taser, and pepper spray inside. Froatz, who is 24 and a New Jersey native, also had a fully automatic M1 carbine rifle in the trunk of his car.

"He was pushing and trying to fight with me. He had a knife here," Juarez says, gesturing toward a front pocket in his jeans as he describes Froatz's efforts to disrupt the pro-immigration rally, which had been organized by a local group Juarez founded called Mexicans Without Borders. After Froatz's arrest, police discovered a hand grenade, a Molotov cocktail, and 1,000 rounds of ammunition in his Northwest Washington apartment.

On the afternoon of our September interview, four months after the assault, Juarez is sitting in a bookstore in Woodbridge, Virginia, sipping coffee. One of 12 children, Juarez was raised in Mexico by his widowed mother, who did laundry and sold firewood to support the family. He attended Mexico City's School of Sciences and Humanities and came to the United States in April 1995, where he found work in construction. In 2002 he founded Mexicans Without Borders to provide legal advice, counseling, and other kinds of support for immigrants in the Mid-Atlantic region.

For Juarez, it has been a rocky summer. In July, members of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors took aggressive steps against undocumented immigrants in Woodbridge and other cities in the county where Juarez lives. The July 10 county resolution passed by the Prince William Board recommended restricting such public services as access to senior centers for undocumented residents. The still more controversial aspect of the resolution instructs police to check into the immigration status of suspected illegals who have been detained -- even for minor traffic violations; previously, police had checked on the immigration status only of those accused of violent crimes.

The resolution is the most stringent anti-illegal immigrant measure to be passed in Virginia. It was first drafted in June with the help of a 1,850-member group called Help Save Manassas, which works to oppose illegal aliens. After the resolution was approved in July, a series of public meetings on the details took place this fall. As the Prospect went to press, the board was still debating how to implement the restriction of services to illegal immigrants and whether to provide training for police in checking on immigration status at a total cost of roughly $14 million; the vote had yet to be scheduled.

Juarez and Mexicans Without Borders, which now has approximately 3,000 members, have been fighting the board's efforts. They organized a week-long boycott of local businesses that had not supported their organization (the group had asked businesses to display posters) and brought more than 3,000 people to a Sept. 2 rally at the seat of the Prince William County government. During the rally, Juarez stood close to a microphone and -- over a frayed sound system --shouted to his followers. "Our constitutional and civil rights are being violated by this resolution," he said. "We are taking the case to court against the county of Prince William." The crowd broke into thunderous cheers and applause.

There have been death threats by e-mail, angry phone calls, and accusations from Republican county leaders that Mexicans Without Borders is trying to bully its opponents and whip up fear and hysteria in the Hispanic community. Meanwhile, bloggers and activists are investigating to see if Juarez and his family are legal, and have been posting their (inconclusive) findings on a Web site, Black Velvet Bruce Li, considered "the most influential local blog in Virginia" by some in the anti- illegal immigrant community.

"There are messages by e-mail that say they are going to kill me," Juarez says. He pulls on the collar of his red, checked shirt, fiddles with one of the buttons, and looks down at the table. "I don't want anyone to kill me."

Prince William County is a comfortable, though traffic-clogged, community 30 miles southwest of Washington, D.C. The county, like the rest of the area, has undergone demographic changes. In greater D.C., the Hispanic population has doubled over the past two decades, according to U.S. Census data. In 2005 the Pew Hispanic Center estimated that roughly 250,000 illegal immigrants live in Virginia and, as happens with any dramatic influx of immigrants, they are blamed for an array of problems: crowded elementary school classrooms and hospital emergency rooms; violent gang activity; run-down rental units in residential neighborhoods; even the high cost of diapers for newborns in a hospital maternity ward.

The undocumented immigrants in Prince William County work in construction and restaurants and other parts of the service industry. And while there is no state-by-state breakdown on the employment of undocumented immigrants, an April 2006 Pew Hispanic Center Fact Sheet revealed national employment patterns among undocumented workers. More than half of short-term undocumented workers have jobs in construction and service, which includes food preparation and other restaurant work. The rest can be found in farming, fishing, forestry, and various industries. Undocumented workers make an average of $350 per week, as compared with the $930 per week that immigrants who have become citizens take home.

As residential neighborhoods in Woodbridge and other cities in Prince William County absorbed newly arrived immigrants -- and elementary school classrooms filled up with Spanish-speaking children -- local activists began to push county leaders to take harsh measures against undocumented workers. For many of the activists, the goal was to arrest and deport undocumented residents as quickly as possible.

In some ways, the issues in Prince William County are similar to those being raised in state and local governments across the country. Political leaders are cracking down on immigrant communities and trying to drive them out -- imposing fines on landlords who rent to undocumented residents, for example, and penalizing employers who hire them. The situation is somewhat different -- and for this reason groundbreaking -- in Prince William County because county officials are involving police officers in their efforts to rid their community of illegal immigrants. Despite the differences in their approach, all of these ordinances have one thing in common: They are an attempt to enforce federal immigration policy at a local or state level.

In Prince William County, the conflict is sharp. Juarez and other immigrant workers, along with church leaders, a handful of unionists, and left-leaning activists, are on one side. Conservative political leaders -- and an eclectic group of bloggers, Ku Klux Klansmen, and the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps -- are on the other. Business owners who serve mainly immigrants are opposed to the resolution because they will lose (and are already losing) business; many business owners who employ undocumented workers, including construction companies, also oppose the resolution. Everybody talks of war. Individuals on one side, and possibly both, are armed.

John Steinbach, 60, a "permanent substitute teacher" and a Mexicans Without Borders volunteer, says the group admires the organizing principles of the Zapatista rebels, who fought the Mexican government in 1994. Roughly 300 volunteers for Mexicans Without Borders, which does not embrace Zapatista-style violence, translate government documents into Spanish, hand out flyers, and work to defeat the Prince William resolution. With assets of roughly $2,000 at any given moment, Mexicans Without Borders partners with other organizations such as the Woodbridge Workers Committee and local churches to offer English-language classes and distribute food and winter coats, roughly 250 each year. In an odd alliance, the police, too, seem to oppose aspects of the resolution, as they believe it will make their jobs harder. County Police Chief Charlie T. Deane, who has been hostile toward the resolution, told the Prince William board of "a potential chilling effect on witness cooperation and victim-witness cooperation."

On the other side, the most public face of the pro-resolution forces is Greg Letiecq, a blond, deeply tanned, 43-year-old information technologies consultant and ex-infantryman in the Maryland National Guard who is president of Help Save Manassas and the lead blogger on Black Velvet Bruce Li. On an afternoon in September, Letiecq sits in a Taco Bell near his house, wearing a "USA" T-shirt and talking about his concerns for the safety of his daughters, ages 5 and 2, in their neighborhood. He looks out the window. Cars whiz past us on suburban Sudley Manor Drive. Someone wearing a Quiznos Sub costume -- an enormous, billowing white cup with a red straw -- trudges near an intersection. None of it looks particularly dangerous. "In the house down the road, there were transient people living there with a large number of unmarried males," Letiecq tells me. "A lot of questionable activity. ... Potential drug activity." He claims, though the resolution is not yet in place, that things have gotten better since its adoption. "Not all the way," he adds. "But they're improving."

Letiecq has a conservative coalition -- at local, state, and national levels -- at his back. Lawyers working for the Immigration Reform Law Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based organization, crafted the language for the county resolution during meetings with Letiecq and other members of his organization, Help Save Manassas. A member of that group, John T. Stirrup Jr., who is also a supervisor on the Prince William County Board, eventually sponsored the resolution.

The Immigration Reform Law Institute is the legal arm of yet another organization, Federation for American Immigration Reform. FAIR has received funding from the Pioneer Fund, a group founded in the 1930s and known for its financing of research that examines whether blacks are genetically inferior to whites. The Ku Klux Klan also surfaced in Manassas in September, leaving around town flyers that warned of "'gangs, drugs and pornography' brought by immigrants."

The presence of the Klan, and the arrest of the armed protestor Tyler Froatz, who claims to be a member of the Herndon Minutemen, raises questions about the role of white supremacists, hate groups, and sociopaths in the controversy over undocumented immigrants. FAIR executives, as well as others on their side of the debate, make it clear they do not incorporate fringe elements or condone their actions. "Our SOPs [standard operating procedures] are very clear," Minutemen director Al Garza explains. "We do not practice carrying weapons at rallies."

Letiecq says he is appalled by the presence of white supremacists in his neighborhood. Racist policies are contrary to the spirit of this country, he says, and the Klan is "not welcome here." The issue, he says, is "'legal' versus 'illegal' -- who's got lawful presence and who doesn't. I'd be equally upset if it were a bunch of Canadians here." What gets him really worked up, though, is not so much the dark history of the Klan -- though he touches on that. ("They should be embarrassed," he tells me.) Rather, it is the way Klansmen have tried to hone in on his political turf. Now that gets under his skin.

"It just pisses me off. Everyone feels compelled to call the Klan up and ask for their opinion," he says. "Who cares what those guys say? They haven't done anything. They never tried to make things better here. We're working double time, and these guys want to come in and coattail. We didn't need them before. We certainly don't need them now."

Keeping the fight clean of extremists is key for Republicans, who are hoping to capitalize on local anti-immigrant sentiment to win elections in the next cycle. "Things have turned mean for them," explains Larry J. Sabato, director of the University of Virginia's Center for Politics in Charlottesville. "They once controlled Virginia lock, stock, and barrel. That isn't true anymore. It's truly a competitive purple state." Hence, immigration. "Those communities that are now Democratic are concerned about immigration. Republicans see it as a way to get some of their votes back," he adds.

"We need to crack down on illegal immigration," says Prince William County Board of Supervisors Chairman Corey A. Stewart, a Republican. "My take is, 'Look, this is predominantly a federal issue, but we're on the front line.'" Stewart is a 39-year-old, Polo-clad attorney and a graduate of Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service. "My wife is a legal immigrant," he tells me. (She's from Sweden.) The day I meet him in his K Street office, he hands me a sheaf of papers from a Sept. 6 House Judiciary Committee immigration hearing at which he testified. "We've been getting dozens of phone calls," he says. "This has caught on like wildfire." It is an unanswered question whether the Prince William County resolution, as well as similar efforts in other parts of the country, really will help Republicans gain traction. Sabato says the strategy will backfire at both the state and national level. "The Latino vote is growing over time," he explains. "It's about twelve percent of the population but about six percent of the vote. That gap will close." The increasing clout of His- panic voters, who lean heavily toward Democratic candidates, means conservative Republicans, especially those who support strict anti-immigration policies, will face resistance during election campaigns.

An executive vice president of the Service Employees Inter- national Union, Eliseo Medina, agrees. "There's a feeling that this community is under attack," Medina says, "and that a lot of it is being driven by the Republican Party. I think that, to their dismay, people are going to remember them at the polls."

Juarez's work may help ensure that's true. Juarez meets regularly with small business owners who serve mainly the immigrant community, and many have agreed to give out Mexicans Without Borders flyers in their restaurants and grocery stores. In addition to working 45 hours a week in construction, Juarez also gets out the word of his anti-resolution effort in Spanish- language newspapers and radio and television interviews. He's hardly alone. One volunteer, Yolanda Marilena Lemus, a 32-year-old administrative assistant at a homeowners' title company, says she convinced between 15 and 20 friends and family members to attend the September rally at the county government offices. "I personally said, 'You got to come to this,'" she tells me. Martin Bernal, the owner of El Nopal Grocery Store in Culpeper, says he helped drive 60 people in cars and vans from their homes in Culpeper to the rally.

Mexicans Without Borders has been urging its members to register to vote. Many, however, are non-citizens and cannot. Lacking political clout and a political constituency, Mexicans Without Borders leaders have begun to form informal ties with members of organizations such as the Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union; Tenants and Workers United, a grassroots organization committed to economic and social justice in Northern Virginia; and the Virginia Justice Center for Farm and Immigrant Workers.

More importantly, because the resolution will likely be approved this fall, among Mexicans Without Borders members, judicial means to defeat the resolution are seen as an especially powerful tool. (Every time the word "lawsuit" came up at the rally protestors screamed wildly.) They have been talking with lawyers from the New York-based Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund, says legal coordinator Nancy Lyall. In October, a coalition including the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund filed a lawsuit against the county contesting the constitutionality of the resolution. (The more established National Council of La Raza says it does not have formal ties with Mexicans Without Borders. "Some grassroots organizations choose certain tactics that other organizations do not feel comfortable with," says Flavia Jimenez, a Chicago-based senior policy analyst with La Raza. In other words, says Jimenez, "We're not litigators.")

Pro-resolution lawyers and activists are also prepared for a fight in court. Immigration Reform Law Institute lawyers have worked with Letiecq, Stirrup, and others to ensure that carefully chosen language, designed to withstand potential litigation, is used in measures targeting illegal immigrants. The policies, including ordinances in Hazleton, Pennsylvania, which refused to allow illegal immigrants to live or work in that community, have attracted attention for elected officials. But the measures don't seem to stick. In July, a federal judge threw out the Hazleton ordinances, and in Missouri a judge struck down a resolution in Valley Park that had been designed to impose fines on property owners who rent to undocumented immigrants.

American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) lawyers had filed lawsuits in Hazleton and Valley Park, as well as in other parts of the country, to contest the measures. In all of the cases, says Omar Jadwat, a New York-based staff attorney who works for the ACLU's Immigrants' Rights Project, the measures were thrown out or scaled back because of the litigation.

"The general principle, constitutionally, is that immigration is the federal government's concern and state and local governments lack any kind of broad authority to act in the area of immigration," Jadwat explains. "If we're going to have a coherent national policy on immigration, we can't have a patchwork of laws."

The resolution was passed unanimously in July, and most observers of the political process in Prince William County believe chances are high that the members of the county board will go forward with its plan. "I think their minds are already set," Carlos Aragon, 56, the general manager of Radio Fiesta, tells me. "They're going to pass the resolution." For that reason, a lawsuit seems like the most plausible option for people who are dissatisfied with it.

These days, Juarez meets with people who say they have been discriminated against in Northern Virginia -- he carries around sheets of paper with dozens of their names and phone numbers in a worn leather satchel. He continues circulating among business owners and the media, and co-hosts meetings of hundreds of volunteers, which are held up to three times weekly during times of "crisis," as volunteer Steinbach puts it. As Juarez finishes his coffee, he looks tired (his eyes are bloodshot) and anxious about the work ahead of him. He says he believes groups like Help Save Manassas are "promoting hate and racism."

"The effect of the resolution is fear," he says. "It's affecting thousands, and people are leaving this county because of it. The risk is not from me -- even though that is what people say. But liberty and civil rights are at risk. I am now afraid because they have taken that direction."

Reprinted with permission from Tara McKelvey. "Prince William's Folly," The American Prospect, Volume 10, Number 11: November 01, 2007. The American Prospect, 2000L Street, Suite 717, Washington, DC 20036. All rights reserved."

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What's new?
Posted by: JPHickey on Nov 7, 2007 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As far as I'm concerned, this is a long article with next to nothing new to contribute. I suppose the editors modified the wording in the beginning to throw immigrants in with undocumented immigants, illegal aliens, etc into one pot just to stirr up those of us otherwise liberal leanings.

As a legal citizen of the U.S., disabled and over 65, I am concerned about the destruction of the safety net, leaving those of us who need help the most up the creek without a paddle.

Even without the growing numbers of illegal aliens, things coming along poorly for us already, and geting worse with each passing day.

As far as I'm concerned, our lives as citizens are aready ending up without adequate support for our basic needs, with whatever benefits we have left being whittled down at every opportunity.

Those of you "winners" who have it made have compassion for illegal aliens but just sweep your own people under the carpet to be ignored, while you donate to the ACLU and consider illegal aliens to be the only underdogs who are worth bothering with.

Assuming that all is well with the disbled, elderly, poor, and otherwise needs demonstrates just how callous the so-called liberals have become. What's with you people anyway? Why do you go out of your way to extend a helping hand to illegal aliens without giving a second-though to our own citizen?

Also, as a Veteran, I am not exactly enthralled by the consistant bluster to open America's doors and coffers to illegal aliens while failing to give a second-thought about the state of our own Veterans.

Many Veterans suffer from invisible, but devistating permanent injuries including concussions as well as toxic damage from chemicals and radioactive exposures.

Giving illegal aliens precidence over our Veterans, or elderly, disabled, isn't the good cause that the writer has attempted to portray, as least as far as I'm concerned.

Once more I want to remind you that illegal aliens are indeed a threat to me personally as they have already horned in on my life at every turn, form taking odd jobs, on to the food bank, and the emergency rooms.

People I know have had illegal aliens steal their social security numbers and use these to take jobs that our own citizens would have otherwise.

Many illegal aliens are no doubt wonderfully warm and fine people, but as workers they are so compliant, humiliated, and easy to otherwise abuse. Many employers apparently prefer the use of cheap easy to humiliate labor over our own citizens who still believe in the value of Constitutional Rights and are willing to stand up to be counted!

Not that the employment situation in Arizona respectes Constitutional rights anyway, being a "Right to Work" state, and I have yet to hear about the ACLU choosing to undertake any cases in these areas.

Really things are already bad enough without being forced to compete with illegal aliens for the few remaining bread crumbs that slip through the cracks and get down to those of us at the bottom.

Unfortunately, AlterNet is outof-touch with what's really happening to the United States, but articles like the above give me a very poor impression of the motives behind them!

Finally, a question. "What do AlterNet liberals and Marie Antonette have in common?" Answer: "Let them eat cake!"

» RE: The word Alien Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: The word Alien Posted by: odanu
» RE: The word Alien Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: What's new? Posted by: rocketman
» RE: What's new? Posted by: Jim Shaw
» RE: What's new? Posted by: Old Skeptic
» RE: What's new? Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: What's new? Posted by: Knot_Rich
This author has a logic problem.... maybe she has not had any courses....
Posted by: Pepper on Nov 7, 2007 5:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... relationships between basic premises and conclusions. First she says (first premise), that the population of Illegals have dramatically increased in Virginia to the tune of over 250,000 and then makes a completely illogical leap to say that given that number, the locals there blame the illegals unjustly for problems on their systems.

Duh, well, what do you think an influx of non english speaking people with no medical insurance, no training driving on American roads, no cultural acclimation given like we do with legal immigrants, no medical testing or shots before entry bringing in diseases otherwise erradicated here in this country until this influx began, such as Hep C. Or if you empty out the prisons and those criminals then relocate WITHOUT ANY CLEARANCE OF RECORD to then bring that with them to this country and we don't know about it until they begin their criminal activities here???

Just what in the heck did you think locals would do about it??? This authors denial of the problems is typical and mind boggling. This is simply one more element of the neocons determination to regionalize this nation without a discussion or vote of the people or their representatives with an open agenda that we can all see.

Its not just the issues involved, its the total disregard for the rule of law, the process and the right of the citizens of this nation to enforce their laws. If you don't like it, CHANGE THE DAMN LAWS. There is a reason immigrants are forced to go through a process to get here. Its not only for the communities benefit but for the immigrant themselves. Give me a break that she can't see the obvious. What is wrong with peoples brains..... too much fast food??? Tooo many chemicals in prepared foods??? Genetically engineered and modified foods???? Something is seriously affecting our "common sense" and analytical thinking skills.

Its scary, frankly, more so than Bush himself, which is pretty bad.

Why is it a controversy to battle illegals?
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 7, 2007 6:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow god forbid tax payers don’t want illegals in their community, using resources they don’t pay into. The fact is Hispanics DO create most of the gang activity in NOVA and probably elsewhere in the country. I’m sorry but that is a fact. What is so controversial in fighting ILLEGAL aliens? If you’ve ever been to NOVA the first thing you might notice is how over populated it is not just with Hispanics but more and more with Russians as well.

» Jail the employers Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: Jail the employers Posted by: Jefferson's Guardian
If government won't do anything then people will.
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Nov 7, 2007 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has ALWAYS been the case; whether in the USA or in Iraq. This is why it is imperative for the government (Federal, State, and Local) to solve this illegal immigration problem with an immediate 'crackdown' and then a sane policy of legal immigration. Seal the borders. Having a quick and easy way of legal immigration (with background checks, income checks, and skill tests.) Track legal immigrants after entry by a process. Path to citizenship for some. Others on time-related permit linked with specific job. Bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan and use them to help solve the illegal immigration and border problem. Severe fines and/or criminal penalties for people, and businesses, who hire illegals (increasing fines based on low wages, # of illegals, and past convictions.)
Yes, people can, and will eventually, take defence into their own hands but this is not ideal. People, usually, aren't trained, don't understand the whole scope of the problem, and the illegals can get violent in response. This is why the government must solve the problem.

» It is very simple, really. Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Public Schools in California are among the nation's worst
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 7, 2007 6:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Public Schools in California are among the nation's worst. They used to be the best. But now they are filled with students learning English coming from families to do not even speak English basics. California needs to assimilate millions of non-English speaking children into our schools in ways that do NOT "dumb down" learning for native English speakers. How do we do that? Our schools are predominantly filled with immigrants and the curriculum is designed for fluent children. Public school classrooms are rapidly losing native English speakers to private schools or homeschooling.

Illegals talk about their rights being violated.

What about the rights of citizen taxpayers to a DECENT free education for their citizen children?

» MadMac Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Rabid talk Posted by: DesertStone
I think Mexico needs a taste of it's own medicine
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 7, 2007 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think Mexico needs a taste of it's own medicine. How about 12 million US citizens travel to Mexico for a month (all at once) and demand our rights to free medical, welfare, English in their schools, etc...

Yanno what Mexico does with illegals from their southern border???
Bullets and prison.

If they want us to have a borderless society, so should they.

Consequences
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Nov 7, 2007 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush's corporate-inspired permissiveness toward illegal aliens for their low-wage labor has made violence inevitable. We need a President who will defend our borders and our economic integrity!

Interesting points all around.
Posted by: constitution, what constitution on Nov 7, 2007 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having grown up in NOVA (more specifically PWC I'm ashamed to say) I have witnessed this massive influx of immigrants. The infrastructure of these counties has indeed taken a massive hit for many of the reasons Pepper pointed out.

Go to the ER of Potomac Hospital on any given day. The waits are longer because they can't turn away the people without insurance (granted Potomac Hospital's ER was never efficient to begin with). Myself and more than one of my friends have been hit by an unlicensed, uninsured driver.

These issues are easily resolved. Immigration reform! I'm not up to date on the amount of time needed to properly process an immigrant, but I'm sure it's not a very quick turnaround. I'd venture a guess at 7 years being an average (what?! even with our super efficient federal government?!). Make it easier to get citizenship. Let these people that want to come to the US come.

I worked construction for a few summers on breaks from college. During this time I had the opportunity to meet many latinos as well as practice my Spanish. 90 per cent of these immigrants want to be assimilated. They look forward (as much as one can) to voting, taxes, etc. Several of them even had false Social Security numbers under which they paid taxes. My personal experiences are why I cringe when the likes of Stewart and people like him denounce an entire group.

CHANGE THE LAWS!

For the record: Manasshole has never been looked upon favorably. When Woodbridge looks down on you, you know you're bad.

» RE: Interesting points all around. Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
So much for the law and order crowd ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Nov 7, 2007 7:46 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Usually it's 'what part of illegal don't you understand?' and 'just enforce the laws on the books.' Apparently, the irony of those same people being fine and dandy with folks bringing hand grenades to peaceful protests is lost on them.

When it comes to a foreigner committing a misdemeanor, now that's a serious law enforcement issue. Ignoring it will lead to anarchy! But getting it into your mind to waste a bunch of immigrants, now that's just Americans defending themselves and there's nothing wrong with that, is there?

It's very telling.

» I'd say nice try, but it really isn't Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Correction Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Correction Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: Correction Posted by: anonymous black writer
pocomoco
Posted by: pocomoco on Nov 7, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do we even use terms such as undocumented immigrants and illegal aliens? Why not call a spade a spade? They are unlawful criminals. If this term was used constantly by the news media and others then people who have their heads in the sand may realize that they have no rights in this country. I am tired of hearing how they just want to support their family. I want to support my family and I do but I'm not breaking laws to do it.

» RE: pocomoco Posted by: madmac10
I'm skeptical...
Posted by: 3fgburner on Nov 7, 2007 8:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... at least about the hand grenade. My guess is that it was probably a dummy. Why am I skeptical? Because of the author's obvious incompetence with regard to firearms. Quote: "Froatz, who is 24 and a New Jersey native, also had a fully automatic M1 carbine rifle in the trunk of his car."

Before I go further with that, let me preface my comments with this: I hold no brief for Mr. Froatz, who is in my opinion a thug. Illegal immigration needs to be addressed legislatively, not violently. That said, I have to ding Ms. McKelvey on her writing.

A firearm is either a rifle, or a carbine, not both. The M1 rifle and M1 carbine are two different guns, both of World War II vintage. NEITHER of them is, or can be made, "fully automatic".

The author is also impressed that Mr. Froatz had over 1,000 rounds of ammunition in his apartment. I've got news for her. If you want decent prices on ammunition, 1,000 rounds is usually the break point for discount pricing. A lot of us keep 1,000 or more rounds of each caliber we shoot. This is almost as funny as Governor Tim Kaine (VA)'s wide-eyed amazement when he heard that Seung-Hui Cho had over two hundred rounds on him.

» RE: I'm skeptical... Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: I'm skeptical... Posted by: jbur816
Keep It Simple (for the) Suckers!
Posted by: madmac10 on Nov 7, 2007 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Illegal Immigration is such a great vote-getter--especially for a washed up political party that has done nothing but lead its constituents to ruin. Republicans in Virginia are wringing their hands as they watch their state turn blue before their eyes. But, hey, falling back on hate has always been a trump card for Virginia's politics.

Hopefully, they can take a tremendously complex issue and simplify it enough to swing voters their way. (Harumph) Well, here's a problem: our infrastructure has been stretched to the limit (just don't squeak about who let it get that way with their other simplistic mantra: don't tax me!) Must be those immigrants. They talk about us in Spanish, I know they do! They are planning to take away everything our ancestral slaves built for us. Vote for me, and you'll keep me relevant! I'll be damned if I can actually do anything about it, but hopefully something else will come along next election cycle that I can take advantage of.

Happily, a lot of these electioneers got their hats handed to them this week. More happily still, the people who see their rights threatened can take the fight further than the ballot box. I, for one, am right behind them.

I've lived in the Washington area all my life: I remember a day when the white male establishment ran things. They were bullies and racists, and when they didn't have blacks or women to beat up, they beat up poor white folks. And their sons are still there, just itching for their gandpappy's days to come back. Believe me: things are MUCH better in this region these days BECAUSE of the influx of Latino workers. They could be better still if the everyone worth more than a million dollars in Virginia were taxed another twenty percent. But that is too simplistic a proposition, isn't it?

Time for an open and honest debate.
Posted by: synapse on Nov 7, 2007 8:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here we go again.

An open borders proponent attempts to use the guilt by association tactic to malign Americans who support secure borders and enforcement of immigration laws by finding an extreme outlier case.

The same author would complain loudly if someone were to imply that since more than 90% of methamphetamine is manufactured and brought in by Mexican drug cartels that, therefore, most or all illegal aliens are drug dealers. Or, the fact that the violent South American gangs like MS13 are proliferating across the U.S. that most illegal teens are involved in such gangs. What about the radical members of La Raza and similar groups who espouse their racial supremacy and the Reconquista? How about the Latino gangs in Los Angeles engaging in racial cleansing by murdering innocent African Americans? Then there is the case of the illegal alien on trial in my state for the violent murder of his girlfriend, he tied her by the neck to the back of his car and drove through the streets at night until she was virtually decapitated. There are also many cases of animal cruelity from a culture that enjoys cock fighting and dog fights. It would not be fair to say the people involved in these activities represent the typical illegal immigrant.

Charges of hate or racism against supporters of immigration reform does nothing but stifle dissent. I am no racist, I am a minority from a working poor background. I have experienced hunger and malnutrition, cold in the winter, and lack of access to health care and medicine during times of acute illness. I know how difficult it is to get ahead or even keep your head above water, even for those of us who have managed to get a college education and have never been in trouble with the law. There so many people heavily impacted by wage depression who live below the radar but they are rarely or never the concern of neoliberal or neoconservative open border ideologues except for occasional lip service. Perhaps one of the best illustrations of this unseen society of America's poor came from the book Nickel and Dimed, On Not Getting By In America written by Barbara Ehrenreich.


There are legitimate concerns involved with mass and illegal immigration:

Overpopulation and environmental destruction.

Balkanization undermining representative government and leading to ethnic tensions.

Multiculturalism eroding community involvement in civic affairs (a conclusion supported by studies).

Erosion of the safety net for America's poor and disabled.

Further weakening of the health care and education systems.

Moving away from the ideals of sustainable development.


The next level of worry is that we are allowing our national sovereignty to be undermined for the sake of increased profits for multinational companies at the expense of working and middle class Americans. Of course, this refers to the long sought goal of regional government run by an international elite group of corporate powerbrokers.

The establishment of regional and global governance requires that citizens relinquish what little say they have over their working conditions, their environmental controls, educational standards, and health care choices. This is about the further centralization of economic and political power into the hands of the few. It is a form of neofuedalism that may be packaged to the public as their road to prosperity and security but it is a wolf in sheep's clothing for people who do not want to eventually find themselves in society as marginal and draconian as China.

We need to have an open and honest discussion about all of the ramifications of our immigration policies that, IMO, have been deliberately pursued to foster wage depression, social disenfranchisement, and loss of representative government.

» RE: Time for an open and honest debate. Posted by: anonymous black writer
» You first Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: You first Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: You first Posted by: Joshua Holland
Surreal
Posted by: willymack on Nov 7, 2007 9:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's get this straight: Illegals are parading in public, thus exposing themselves to all and sundry, and DEMANDING THEIR RIGHTS, when in reality, the ONLY "right " they have is the right to be deported. Has this gotten crazy or what? Only in a society dominated by a shadow government is such insanity possible. I feel for those less fortunate than Americans; hell, I LIKE Mexicans and others from Latin America, but we've got our OWN problems (including crooks who get rich off unfortunates who are here illegally) to solve. The days of limitless land and horizons are long gone, and we have far too many people in this country LEGALLY who are in dire need of relief from the thugs in Washington to be a sanctuary for those from OTHER dictatorships. Where do we run to when things turn to dust here? We all know the answer to that one.

» RE: Surreal Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: More than human rights Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: More than human rights Posted by: Joshua Holland
» It's Simple, Really... Posted by: madmac10
Interesting how AlterNet always becomes so PRO-BUSINESS...
Posted by: war_on_tara on Nov 7, 2007 9:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...whenever it addresses this issue!

Business owners who serve mainly immigrants are opposed to the resolution because they will lose (and are already losing) business; many business owners who employ undocumented workers, including construction companies, also oppose the resolution....

Those poor downtrodden BUSINESS OWNERS - we must get the government to stop picking on them!

» okay, fair enough Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: okay, fair enough Posted by: Joshua Holland
What most people miss in the discussion about illegal aliens
Posted by: Libsrule on Nov 7, 2007 10:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is simple.

The longview. What will the influx of tens of millions of illegal aliens to do America? How can the influx of these tens of millions of poor, uneducated, unskilled, and constantly using our resources while providing...what? Cheap lawnwork? Cheap babysitters? Saving 25 cents on a head of lettuce?

Although illegals do contribute to the tax system, they are a net drain financially, even considering the taxes they contribute. There are simply too many of them. Further, they take jobs that should go to our own middle class and poorer citizens, and would if they were not here. Their presence depresses wages for all lower strata jobs and causes small businesses to lose business to those who hire the illegals and therefore can undercut their job bids. Many small construction and similar businesses are struggling because to compete successfully they would have to dump their current employees and hire illegals like their competition already has. Illegals are a huge drain on public health and education, consuming resources that should go to help legal citizens. Because I'm basically a liberal, I am against illegal immigration because the persons it hurts the most are the poorer classes, both illegals and our own needy citizens.

It would be great if America and society could still afford unlimited immigration, but those days are gone. Our natural resources are strained with the number of people we have NOW - adding a million illegals per year will simply bring us to emergency that much sooner. What good will it have done us to let everyone in who wants to come, when by doing so we are insuring that our infrastructure, public services and water, electricity, etc., won't be able to handle it, leaving us all in want? Will people finally learn once the US turns into an overpopulated sinkhole where no one but the wealthy can survive? It is already predicted that rolling blackouts and brownouts are expected to be a regular occurrence starting in a few years, because of demand on the energy infrastructure and lack of natural resources - how much worse will it be when we are adding a million users per year that are illegals, in addition to the normal modes of population increase? We are already fighting over water supplies in the west and southwest. The old world is gone, and we have to make hard choices. We are no longer living in the 1800's or even early 1900’s where we welcomed and needed all we could get to come here.

Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration. He even led marches to the Mexican border to protest illegals. He knew it would hurt those he was working hardest for; the poor legal immigrants who could not compete with illegals who will be willing to work for even less wages. He worked hard to get legal immigrants better rights in the fields.

We are digging our own graves with our misguided generosity. We are paying for a badly run war that is going beyond all normal reason and was started on false premises. We are paying for a poorly run Medicare system. We are paying for corporate welfare. And we are going to suffer if our infrastructure is allowed to stand in the deteriorating condition it is. We can no longer afford to welcome everyone who wants to come here. Sure, I wish it were different - but times have changed.

Thanks for the acknowledgement of the pitting of immigrant vs "illegal" dirty trick.
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 7, 2007 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, you'll hear stuff like NoVA is diverse, yata yata yata. However, a closer look will tell you that Fairfax and Arlington counties are getting too crowded that the sprawl is now extending on to Prince William and Loudoun counties and in those counties there's a lot of racial discrimination. Those counties used to be rural but for the past decade farmlands have been BULLDOZED and RAPED to make room for "business". Ironically, even while Loudoun and Prince William counties made headlines throughout the state of curtailing illegals, those same counties still go out of their ways to "legalize" ILLEGAL labor. As for the rest of the state? There's a growing cancer of ILLEGAL near-SLAVE labor even as people wail about "illegals taking away their jobs". While I don't live in NoVA, thank GOD, I still have to go there time and again for business purposes. The irony is the heavy sprawl isn't caused so much by the "illegals" as they are by simply everyone wanting to drive and spend like there's no tomorrow even while not taking public transportation seriously. As a matter of fact, people who have lived there have told me that 9 out of 10 metro buses that pass them by have a "NOT IN SERVICE" logo on the front. As for the outer suburbs / exurbs, over 70% of the newer buildings, homes, apartments, etc ... in PW and Loudoun come from ILLEGAL labor and there are no penalties against employers hiring ILLEGAL labor. It's so disgusting out there I don't even want to say anymore about the mess in that part of the state lest I puke !

Canada
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 7, 2007 11:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Canada is an under populated vast nation. Why do so many illegals stop moving once they have reached the US? I bet they would be welcomed in Canada. Not to mention Canada loses members of it’s poulatioon to illegal immigration as well. There are huge numbers of illegals Canadians in the NE currently.

» RE: Canada Posted by: settebello
Immigrants Are Here To Stay, Illegal Or Not
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Nov 7, 2007 12:01 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All over the country governments are proposing wacky, zany legislation to prevent a certain group of people for seeking a better life here. And we know some of them are without proper documentation, but even a piece of paper will not prevent others from moving.
Just because a government says you need to prove your existence on paper with numbers on it doesn't mean everyone will adhere to it. People from other countries may not have any documents when they cross the imaginary border. For them, it's a matter of life and death.
People fear something they cannot understand; and immigration has always been an emotional subject for us. All arguments say they're here to "take" "our jobs" or "cause crime" or some other side effect of modern society, but they're too easy of a target to blame America's problems at their doorstep. Drafting legislation to keep them out will not work.
Most nations have some sort of immigration problem; Anglo birth rates are dropping in Europe and in the U.S.A. Guess whose numbers are rising faster? Guess which ethnic group would fill the nation's factories and businesses? Are we afraid of a brown country?
Census data chronicles birth rates of industrialized nations and each of these countries-Germany, Sweden, Denmark, for example, have seen their birth rates decline for over a 20-year period and this has caused each country to make up the serious labor shortage by finding workers in different countries, mainly from Turkey and from the Middle East; here we get our labor supply from Mexico and from various Latin American countries.
With this labor infusion comes the by-products of an immigrant labor force the culture collisions, where people in Hazleton, Pennsylvania, Cochise County, Arizona, Woodbridge, Virginia and elsewhere are having a hard time understanding why they won't integrate into the mainstream. The ceviche meets the hamburger at some intersection in your town.
Even in Los Angeles, where I live, people seethe with anger about the numbers of immigrants who roam our streets. But no one really knows who is what just because we attempt to slap a label on them as if they were mayonnaise jars.
No one has an answer to this, even as leading sociologists try to provide us with one. But bullying them and threats of force only exacerbate the problem.
One thing is certain: no matter where you live, people will move, to find a better life-and legislation or arbitrary borders will not stop movement of people. They're dying to get here.
So to all the Minutemen, please go home and let's not Warsaw Ghettoize this country by erecting walls and electronic fences along the southern border. We have to find a way to accommodate them without hate and resentment. Each act of violence will only beget violence. Are we no longer a compassionate nation? What is our response now?
There was a time when strangers were welcomed here, but we no longer play music.

Are we a nation of laws or not?
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Nov 7, 2007 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every nation has the absolute right, under national sovereignty, to accept or reject would-be immigrants. When illegal aliens sneak into our country, they deprive us of that right. When they take American jobs, they are depriving the lowest-skilled, least-educated Americans of unskilled jobs at a living wage. Because of the easy availability of cheap, illegal alien labor, Americans simply can't afford to work at many unskilled jobs anymore, because the employers have cut the salaries and benefits so drastically. Illegals will take the jobs and then often crowd 15-20 into a house or apartment, becoming a neighborhood nuisance. Other comments have touched on other abuses by illegal aliens: using our ERs for minor or routine medical care then stiffing the hospitals on the bills, having "anchor babies", which essentially amounts to stealing US citizenship for the babies, and eventually, the parents hope, for themselves.

Some say that because the aliens are here, we can't get rid of them. Nonsense! We need to drop this politically correct nonsense and return to being a nation of laws! Are we a nation of laws, or only when it doesn't offend anyone?

IMO, what we need to do is to increase the numbers of the Border Patrol to whatever it takes to seal off our border. We should prosecute illegal aliens and put them in jail for at least a few weeks, then deport them. We should do whatever is necessary to eliminate "anchor babies": if it requires a constitutional amendment, then so be it. We need a biometric Social Security card that can't easily be tampered with and no one should be hired, even to mow lawns, unless he/she can show a valid card. For larger employers, electronic verification of ID should be instituted. Be sure that all governmental support services are distributed to US citizens and legal immigrants only! Enforce our laws against hiring illegal aliens and punish employers.

Do these things and a large proportion of illegal aliens will self-deport. No jobs + no freebies + no anchor babies= no illegal aliens, IMO.

» You tell us ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» They keep telling me that ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: Are we a nation of laws or not? Posted by: anonymous black writer
Deportations of legal aliens increasing
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 7, 2007 1:18 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all the frenzy that illegals have created concerning immigration ICE is now deporting legal aliens for the most minor offenses. The Hispanic communities that lobby for illegals are rarely concerned with human rights or fair immigration reform in general as they are for Hispanics specifically. I have known people who have lived legally in the US for literally decades only to be deported for a series of minor issues. This was not the case before the frenzy over illegal immigration and overpopulation in the past several years.

Imperialism a source for immigration woes
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 7, 2007 1:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another important issue is the US government’s aid of foreign governments that are corrupt and abusive. It is a fact that the US enables and supports corruption in various parts of the world which is a root cause of immigrant’s coming into the US. It is not entirely fair for Americans to act like victims of immigration.

A correction
Posted by: SOWILO on Nov 7, 2007 1:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I meant the writings of AUGUSTO BOAL, who wrote the annoying tract "Theatre of the Oppressed."

Americans believe in the rule of law
Posted by: Bettybb on Nov 7, 2007 2:18 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank God Americans still know right from wrong.
Thank God Americans still believe in the rule of law, one law for everyone, applied equally.
Thank God Americans still believe we are a country of laws.

We know illegal immigration is wrong, racist, preferrential, and will undermine the very existence of our country.

So we are going to put a stop to it.

And we DO NOT reward lawbreakers. No amnesty.

DIP (Democratic lllegal Party, formerly the Democratic Party) just wants to increase its hispanic voter numbers.

Neo Cons like Rudy just want to cater to dishonest businessness.

Anti-legal immigration supporters of illegals just want to bring in more hispanics/

Americans know what is right even if these others don't.

Howard Bloom on racism.
Posted by: SOWILO on Nov 7, 2007 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is Howard Bloom, a Jew, intellectual, and author of "The Lucifer Principle" on racism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2ykoJqoIyw

America Will BE Hispanic, Will Anglos Be "The Illegals" Then?
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 7, 2007 3:11 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like it or not, based on US census figures, America in a few decades will be primarily Hispanic and not Anglo anymore. Much of this debate centers around the fear Anglos have of Hispanics. Fact is, who defines what America is? Why do Anglos think they have a monopoly on this? Here in Miami, if you are an Anglo, you are in the minority. Now, we could define you as therefore "an illegal" if you want, which some Anglos seem to do with all Hispanics. As for Spanish versus English, perhaps America will have (2) languages or more in the future, what is the problem with this? Lots of European countries have more than one language commonly used. A lot of Europeans immigrated to the USA especially before the Great Depression, now it is a lot of Hispanics. So, the face of America is changing, get use to it. The USA had no problem back then letting in millions of Europeans, why the big problem now with Hispanics? Get over the racism issue Anglos, if this is your problem.

» RE: the difference Posted by: DesertStone
Here We Go Again...
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Nov 7, 2007 3:21 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another pro-illegal immigration article on Alternet. Sems like there's one on this forum at least once a week. Nobody seems to agree with it, but the corporate/globalist propaganda just flows out like a river. Why do the owners of Alternet keep trying to pass off this b*llshit, when everybody is on to them? Just stop it already.

By the way, one of the reasons lower-class Americans vote for Repugs is because neither party addresses their economic concerns, so they may as well vote for "values" candidates who match them in social attitudes. Illegal immigration drives down wages, and Repugs support it because it helps big business at the expense of the working class. Now, we see "progressives" supporting it because of identity politics and exaggerated concern for hispanics over the general public. Way to go, self-styled progressives...your're just costing the Dems working-class votes when you give public support to illegal aliens.

» RE: Here We Go Again... Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: Here We Go Again... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Ditto!!!! Posted by: Pepper
» Why people vote Republican Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: mick3 Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: mick3 Posted by: bcgirl125
» RE: mick3 Posted by: anonymous black writer
Economic Variation of Hispanics Imacts "Legal" or "Illegal" Immigration Status
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 7, 2007 3:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the way, I am not in favor of any racism, and if it is Hispanics against Anglos, I consider that wrong. However, it is easy to have a pretty strong reaction to things (as in this article) if you are Hispanic. But, what is not realized here are a couple of things. Hispanic is just a term that derives from Spanish ancestry. It's not a "pure" or even well defined ethnic or racial group. You also have a great deal of variation between so-called Hispanic or Latin American countries. In the Southwest USA, most of "the Hispanics" are of Mexican background, however, here in Florida, most are of Cuban background. And, this group is legally here in the USA, they are automatically given asylum if they reach American soil. The attitude in the Southwest USA is a lot different because of this when it comes to Hispanics. Also, many of the people from Mexico come from a poor or impoverished background as well as illegally. However, with Miami's Cubans, many had a LOT of money when they left decades ago and that has continued. It is also true that Miami has many of the wealthy that left Venezuela and Columbia with the changes in those countries. Again, this is a much wealthier group than the poor Mexicans who crossed the border in the West. It is these economic differences that make these groups "more desirable" (as defined by DHS/US Immigration) when it comes being able to legally immigrate, and many have done so.

WOW surprise surprise the whackjobs are out in force
Posted by: DaBear on Nov 7, 2007 3:58 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My kids go to school in CA, public school, just over half Latino, A little under that Euro-Ams (melanin deficient people). They're fine, both in GATE, which is not surprisingly a little over half Latino....

I'm grateful for gun ownership, though I can't afford any at this point, from the looks of the white supremacists and neo-nazi whackjobs posting here today, I may need to cough up the bucks and own some to protect my Jewishy family and my melanin-rich neighbors from y'all.

Instead of nuking Iran, we outta just nuke NoVA and other white supremacist hotspots... how's that fer a lil reneck logic.

We are far too many on this earth, far too dependent on each other, far too interconnected to tolerate this kind of racist, 20th century bullshit any longer. Love your neighbor, dammit, even he don't look just like your fat stupid white self.

Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
There is reason for all of us to be leftist extremists
Posted by: Raybo on Nov 7, 2007 4:10 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I studied some history about what our country does and has does in and with other countries, it became painfully obvious to me that practically all we have we owe in some way to people outside this country. I mean this quite literally. Unless John Perkins' book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman, is fiction ...and it is pretty easy to see it is not, we have done much to impoverish other nations for our own oil-addicted way of life. So, when people look to coming here to find work and bread (literally and figuratively) for their own families, some of us get our shackles up. With all due respect, my brothers on the right, that's you. And, all you need to do is become educated to see things in a different light. End of sermon.

:)

Ray Teurfs

There is reason for all of us to be leftist extremists
Posted by: Raybo on Nov 7, 2007 4:11 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I studied some history about what our country does and has does in and with other countries, it became painfully obvious to me that practically all we have we owe in some way to people outside this country. I mean this quite literally. Unless John Perkins' book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman, is fiction ...and it is pretty easy to see it is not, we have done much to impoverish other nations for our own oil-addicted way of life. So, when people look to coming here to find work and bread (literally and figuratively) for their own families, some of us get our shackles up. With all due respect, my brothers on the right, that's you. And, all you need to do is become educated to see things in a different light. End of sermon.

:)

Ray Teurfs

Too many people
Posted by: vertical on Nov 7, 2007 5:19 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is not about illegals, but tyhat there are just too many people. The quality of life will go down with evry rise in the population, and it does not matter whether they are illegal immigrant, legal immigrant, migration from other sdtates or a native giving birth to three or more children.

Illegal Immigration is Just a Symptom
Posted by: macdon1 on Nov 7, 2007 6:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of an economy based on greed and dog eat dog capitalism.
Everyone is scrambling for the tiny slice of the pie that is left after the very small percentage of fabulously wealthy people rake in their billions. Yet people still swallow the myth that in America everything is possible (provided you are willing to do anything to achieve your goal.) The US and its allies exploited the countries south of the border to the max...now it is coming home to roost.

Stop Blaming the Other Victims
Posted by: Jim Shaw on Nov 8, 2007 7:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's sad that those at the top of the economic/political pyramid can so easily get the rest of us to fight amongst ourselves for the crumbs they leave behind.

Illegal immigrants from Mexico aren't here because they're selfish scofflaws, they're here because they're desperate. Why are they desperate? In large part, because NAFTA screwed them even worse than it screwed us. Millions of farmers and small businessmen lost their livelihoods. What were they supposed to do - politely and quietly starve to death along with their families?

I know it's easier to bash the weak, but it's not going to get us anywhere. The problem is that the world is being run for the benefit of a tiny elite of bankers, financiers, speculators, corporate chieftains, political power brokers, and a few others. They have set up an economic model in which human labor has largely been replaced by fossil fuel, and in which companies have scuttled any responsibility to their home countries and can scour the globe for the most desperate and compliant workers. One result is that ordinary workers are in overabundance and always insecure. At the same time, these robber barons make sure their taxes are kept low, that social safety nets are minimized, and that resultant anger is misdirected.

That's the problem.

» RE: Right on Jim Shaw !!!!!!! Posted by: MeridaLady
We must address the problem
Posted by: Intellect on Nov 8, 2007 11:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The effect of the resolution is fear," he says. "It's affecting thousands, and people are leaving this county because of it. The risk is not from me -- even though that is what people say. But liberty and civil rights are at risk. I am now afraid because they have taken that direction."

Anyone who is here illegally should leave, and then if they wish to, go through the process and enter LEGALLY, and our immigration process must be reformed!

Either that, or if we are not going to enforce our immigration laws, just repeal them. Having laws that cannot or will not be enforced is lunacy. It creates disrespect for all law.
Why not just annex Mexico altogether?

I am all for LEGAL immigration that is both fair and humane, as well as beneficial to our country, which LEGAL immigration has always proven to be, but breaking our laws to enter our country is no different than breaking any other law.

We do need immigration reform. We do need immigrants to fill jobs and pay taxes, but we need them to obey our laws and immigrate legally. As a country, we must be able to defend our borders or we simply cannot defend our country.
We simply must be able to prevent criminals, terrorists and others who will do harm from entering, but at the same time we must reform our system to allow those who wish to work here, live here and share in the American dream to enter legally.

Our immigration system is broken and it is a sham. Allowing people to enter illegally sets them up for a life of being abused. Hiding in the shadows and being the victims of unfair labor practices and not being able to enjoy the fruits of their labor is not an acceptable way of life.

» RE: We must address the problem Posted by: MeridaLady
The Mexican Invasion...
Posted by: gellero on Nov 8, 2007 4:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, Pity the women and children of Mexico who need to be here. The reality is different for African Americans.

This is the REALITY for the masses

Reality Check here
Posted by: idealthoughts on Nov 8, 2007 4:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A truly romantic and partial fantasy story trying to portray this group "Mexicans without Borders" as a valient white knight coming to the aide of the oppressed (or was that Marx).

I too was at that meeting and spoke before the Board of Supervisors, as a llegal resident and Tara Mckelvey's poetic discription was so far off the mark as to be true fantasy. Yes there was a PA system, yes there was a large group of hispanics as for the frayed sound system it was quite loud and state of the art.

Those that spoke before the Board spoke during the "residents" time to speak and promtly borded their out of county transportation and drove off. Typical. Many residents waiting to speak had to leave due to the lateness of the hour (at 10pm the Board was still on the 2 pm group of speakers). This is the attitude many illegals take, and therefore now find themselves no longer welcome.

This article was entirly offensive as it tried to portray those who want to see our immigration policies followed and are not willing to support those here illegally and contrary to the arguement illegals pay taxes, do not pay taxes as Nazi's and Klu Klux Klaners. The aryian discription of Greg Letiecq was to me slanderous and again typical of supporters of illegals. I don't know the man and if he's Republican would not care to know him, however I do support this resolution and will address and debunk several misrepresentations.

First Virginia derives a good portion of it's revenue from state income taxes. Illegals who are exploited, work off the books, and hence file no taxes skip a large portion of the tax debt they owe after using tax payer funded services. True they pay state sales taxes of which the county gets a small percentage, but they avoid a large share of the tax system and know it and laugh about it. How do I know this? My wife used to work in a bank in Manassas and had many a conversation with latinos in Spanish who asked for ways to avoid taxes and laughed about how they got over. Why share this with my wife? She's a LEGAL immigrant now citizen from Peru and at the time the only Spanish speaking employee at that branch. The stories she told me....

Second, a portion of this article looked at legal challenges to similar ordinances. Prince William County's resolution deals with county funded programs, in other words tax payers programs and therefore the Board has jurisdiction to bar illegal immigrants who don't truly fund these programs from accessing them. What I find interesting here is there is an article about California suing the EPA for not enforcing clean air standards and then setting their own standards, basically doing what the County did by assuming some responsibility for federal programs not appropriatly handled. Yet groups that favor no action on illegals but support such moves by states and localities on enviormental and other issues cry foul when these same localities do the same thing they are supporting for the immigration issue.

Finally the biggest issue here involves the disgrace to our legal immigrants. Those people who obeyed the law, went through a flawed and imperfect system, paid the fees, awaited their turn and swore allegance to this country, now theirs. Groups like Mexicans without Borders should be called Mexicans without order. A good many legal immigrants do not share their view and resent this idea these illegals are better and more deserving then they are. Several spoke at the Board that night and the silence from the illegals was deafening. One thing overlooked is Prince William County's resolution is not aimed at hispanics (which by the way refers to a culture not race so quit confusing the two) but illegal immigrants which could be from anywhere.

Quit confusing fantasy with reality. A MAJORITY of Prince William residents support this measure, therefore it passed.

» RE: One more thing... Posted by: Stoney 12+1
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: SECURE THE BORDERS Posted by: Cooltruth
News Nag
Posted by: The News Nag on Nov 9, 2007 6:21 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm not sure why so few people know about this, but many neo-nazi and similar violent grass-roots hate groups in the United States as well as in Europe are uniting behind the candidacy of extremist libertarian Republican Ron Paul.

Paul has been supportive of and supported by racist and fascistic militia groups in the United States for many years, and the neo-nazis and their fellow hatemongers who are supporting Paul are using his candidacy to spread their own corrosive messages of exclusion and hate to people who would never otherwise be lured in by such bigoted insidiousness.

The Reich Wing sees the Paul candidacy as a vital opportunity for political networking and are trying to use it as a steppingstone toward helping build their fantasized New Reich Order. They are using it to learn about the mechanics of political campaigns, as they hope to tunnel their way up into the political system from the inside by allying with the most ultraconservative, isolationist candidates, both locally and nationally. This is not just their fantasy, as they have been actively organizing, fundraising, and working toward this for several decades.

BTW, perhaps it's European neo-nazis behind the stolen credit card support of Paul's campaign. They are known to have for years been involved in organized crime.

The neo-nazi front is trying to enlarge and re-form, and your personal awareness of it is part of what is needed to stop it before it gains so much traction that it would take another world war to stop it.

Spread the love, halt the hate.

News Nag

All Children In Mexico Have Free Health Care
Posted by: MeridaLady on Nov 12, 2007 7:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I bet you didn't know that.
I also bet you don't know that the Health Care in Mexico is actually better than in the U.S. at 1/10 the cost. The attention that all patients receive is amazing. Doctor visits still average around $20.00.
A large percentage of the doctors here are graduates from U.S. schools like Harvard.
The largest international insurance companies provide policies here. I pay $800 U.S. approx. per year with no deductable & can seek treatment anywhere in the world with no limit for catistrophic illness for a deductable of under $300 per illness. In the U.S. the same company, same policy almost $5,000 per year, good only in the U.S. with limits. The quality of care here is so good that the insurance companies aren't worried about anyone going back to the states for treatment.
There is also a National Health Care system in Mexico that costs around $250 per year per adult and includes medications. Some of the doctors that work in the state-of- the-art hospitals, that got a form of student loan from the Mexican government, are required to donate time in all the clinics & the appointments are for mornings or afternoons. I have some American friends, on limited incomes, that are on the National system here and like it just fine.
Another American friend of mine was diagnosed here with pancratic cancer and had a tumor removed the size of a melon & a hysterectamy, quimo therapy, all medications, & radiation and her total bill without insurance was $15,000. She's been cancer free now for 3 years.
Dentist here are well educated & also very reasonable The dental work is of excellent quality.
It is absolutely inexcusable that Mexico can have a great health care system & the U.S. has nothing to even help it's children.
Mexico does teach English in all of it's elementary & secondary schools & there are already hundreds of thousands of Americans enjoying this wonderful country.
Mexico even has a Social Security system based on the premise, everything that you pay & your employer pays into the system you get back in a lump sum every 10 years. The Mexican government even gives it's poor citizens free parcels of land.
The Mexican people that are in the US are just like all your ancesters & are there for the American dream. It is not their fault that they, except the Doctors, Engineers, etc. who can actually get a green cards, are paid low wages, no workmans comp, and aren't allowed to pay into US social security or tax system. You should see how demeaning they are treated here in Mexico by the US consolates offices when they try to get legal because the US policy is: Unless you rich or sneak over the border, screw you.
The US policy & laws need to be fixed so that it once again becomes a fair employment market with all people paying into social security, Income taxes, workman's compensation etc. etc. & then the employers who are abusing the system in the U.S. just might be forced into hiring Americans again.
Even Canada has had a program in place for years allowing seasonal Mexican workers to easily get a Visa for 6 months every year to do seasonal work at the National rate, pay taxes there, etc., and take or send the rest of the money home to their families, who are struggling on the 50 pesos a day salaries that the American factories, here in Mexico, are paying their relatives.
You need to get the facts straight before any of you make rediculous statements. The Mexican people are victims also & the only people that NAFTA has helped are the big American Corporations.

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