COMMENTS: 96
Bush Is Right to Worry If Waterboarding Is Defined as Torture
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I have to say that I am both glad and amazed that the Bush administration is with it enough to worry. That is a good sign. And they should worry, because they should be indicted, at least. I hope that they are, and that, indeed, it does "go all the way up to the president." One of the Attorney General's jobs should be making sure not only that the laws are enforced, but also that the laws are actual laws -- not opinions by John Yoo or David Addington or some other administration apologist. There is an exact definition of what a law is in this country, and it is not the same as a partisan legal opinion.
One of the enraging things about the Bush administration is the way that they have consistently written their own rules, as if governing the nation is like playing a game of stealing the flag, where the stronger team, when it finds itself losing, simply changes the score or the rules until they either technically "win" or wear out the other side (and in fact, George W. Bush, according to Gail Sheehy, was well known among his friends for changing the rules of a game until he could engineer a win -- and isn't that how they won in 2000?). To do such things is not "courage" or "resolve," it is tyranny.
Mukasey and other Bush administration officials clearly believe that they are going to put over the idea that they "might have gone too far", but that their "intentions were good" and they "just wanted to protect the country." In such a way, they plan to avoid paying the price for their choices and decisions. The law deals with this sort of defense. Someone whose car hits another person in a crosswalk might have been too frightened to stick around or might not have even realized he had hit someone, but the law still prosecutes these crimes, because a responsible citizen is expected to conform to the laws no matter what his emotional state. Same with Cheney and Bush.
You or I may suspect that they were indifferent to the idea of torture in their names, or possibly relished it, but we will never know that. We do, however, know that they explicitly and knowingly allowed torture. The law has no meaning if they don't have to pay for these crimes.
The number of times the Bush administration has skirted or broken or changed the laws to suit themselves is enormous and outrageous. We cannot hope to correct what they have done to our country without addressing their lawlessness. If this means retroactive prosecution, I say bring it on. The fact that they are worried means they know that they should have known better -- in fact, they did know better. All of them.
*****
The following is a photoseries simulating what waterboarding looks like narrated by David Corn, excerpted from an article davidcorn.com.
Below are photographs taken by Jonah Blank [last year] at Tuol Sleng Prison in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. The prison is now a museum that documents Khymer Rouge atrocities. Blank, an anthropologist and former Senior Editor of US News & World Report, is author of the books Arrow of the Blue-Skinned God and Mullahs on the Mainframe.
He is a professorial lecturer at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and has taught at Harvard and Georgetown. He currently is a foreign policy adviser to the Democratic staff in the Senate, but the views expressed here are his own observations.
His photos show one of the actual waterboards used by the Khymer Rouge.
Here's the first:
Here's another view:
How were they used? Here's a painting by a former prisoner that shows the waterboard in action:
In an email to me, Blank explained the significance of the photos. He wrote:
The crux of the issue before Congress can be boiled down to a simple question: Is waterboarding torture? Anybody who considers this practice to be "torture lite" or merely a "tough technique" might want to take a trip to Phnom Penh. The Khymer Rouge were adept at torture, and there was nothing "lite" about their methods. Incidentally, the waterboard in these photo wasn't merely one among many torture devices highlighted at the prison museum. It was one of only two devices singled out for highlighting (the other was another form of water-torture -- a tank that could be filled with water or other liquids; I have photos of that too.) There was an outdoor device as well, one the Khymer Rouge didn't have to construct: chin-up bars. (The prison where the museum is located had been a school before the Khymer Rouge took over).
These bars were used for "stress positions"-- another practice employed under current US guidelines. At the Khymer Rouge prison, there is a tank of water next to the bars. It was used to revive prisoners for more torture when they passed out after being placed in stress positions.
The similarity between practices used by the Khymer Rouge and those currently being debated by Congress isn't a coincidence. As has been amply documented ("The New Yorker" had an excellent piece, and there have been others), many of the "enhanced techniques" came to the CIA and military interrogators via the SERE [Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape] schools, where US military personnel are trained to resist torture if they are captured by the enemy. The specific types of abuse they're taught to withstand are those that were used by our Cold War adversaries. Why is this relevant to the current debate? Because the torture techniques of North Korea, North Vietnam, the Soviet Union and its proxies--the states where US military personnel might have faced torture -- were NOT designed to elicit truthful information. These techniques were designed to elicit CONFESSIONS. That's what the Khymer Rouge et al were after with their waterboarding, not truthful information.
Bottom line: Not only do waterboarding and the other types of torture currently being debated put us in company with the most vile regimes of the past half-century; they're also designed specifically to generate a (usually false) confession, not to obtain genuinely actionable intel. This isn't a matter of sacrificing moral values to keep us safe; it's sacrificing moral values for no purpose whatsoever.
These photos are important because most of us have never seen an actual, real-life waterboard. The press typically describes it in the most anodyne ways: a device meant to "simulate drowning" or to "make the prisoner believe he might drown." But the Khymer Rouge were no jokesters, and they didn't tailor their abuse to the dictates of the Geneva Convention. They -- like so many brutal regimes -- made waterboarding one of their primary tools for a simple reason: it is one of the most viciously effective forms of torture ever devised.
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Posted by: Soaring on Nov 3, 2007 3:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gerard from Spain
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» RE: Soaring Eagle
Posted by: makeadifference
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: pammers
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: Doug1956
» you don't know this
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: rambleman
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: mindportal1
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: fedupw/bush
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: fedupw/bush
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Posted by: Cueenb on Nov 3, 2007 4:43 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 5 minutes after waterboarding, you're fine
Posted by: mindportal1
» Yet another patriot speaking knowledgeably about torture
Posted by: Beck
» RE: 5 minutes after waterboarding, you're fine
Posted by: fedupw/bush
» RE: Cueenb from Brownsville
Posted by: Amandalee
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Nov 3, 2007 4:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People are now implying that is would be a dangerous thing indeed for America to have a Justice Department without a leader for the next fouteen months. I beg to disagree. It would be a hell of a lot better without a head than we've had for the last seven years, first with Ashcrack (thank you, Jello Biafra), and then Gonzalez. A ship without a rudder won't go anywhere, but that doesn't neccessarily mean it will sink.
Obviousy the First Fool is looking for a nominee with a lot of experiance in the law - BREAKING IT.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan
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» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: No-brainer
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» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: ydef
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: Schroeder
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: LMNOP on Nov 3, 2007 4:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And this would be likely to work largely because the American people themselves will readily support such a failed ethical and legal standard due to their own egregious moral and intellectual deficiencies.
"You or I may suspect that they were indifferent to the idea of torture in their names, or possibly relished it, but we will never know that."
Just because I can't demonstrate the ten thousand particulars that I have read or heard over the decade which together establish beyond even a reasonable doubt that Bush has no problem with torturing doesn't mean that they don't exist or that collectively they constitute less than a compelling inductive proof.
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» RE: QED
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: QED
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: QED
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: QED
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: packofwolves on Nov 3, 2007 5:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until politicians have to live by the same rules nothing will ever change.
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» RE: What SICK people are capable of is unbelievable
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Nov 3, 2007 6:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is inconceivable that the Dems will call him on this issue either. There is simply not a single act of stupidity that BushCo has been called on since the inception of his installation as President.
Nothing.
Whatsoever.
It is naive to think that this 'little insignificant' issue will be the 'tipping point'. There are far more egregious issues that have simply been glossed over, ignored, spun, etc.
This Presidency is immune to failure, immune to prosecution and will go down in history the way they want to write it. They make reality. They have made reality.
You and I have no say. Our elected officials have no say. If you or me had any say we'd already have an exit strategy out of Iraq and we wouldn't be talking about Iran right now.
See? He and he alone is in charge. You and me don't matter. FORGET talking about any type of turning point. It is irrelevant. All the talk and discussion about these many issues has gotten us NOWHERE. We are not in charge here. We live in a world now where democratic ideas are passe and without foundation anymore.
It's gone on for so long now and the damage is so severe that 2009 will not bring about the changes we need and desire. The American experiment has been over for many years now. I think we're in denial about that.
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» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: ydef
» RE: Getting Away with Torture - NO!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: Old Me
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: Eezee
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 3, 2007 6:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After writing the first sentence above, I did a Google search and found a
reference that provides some background on this topic.
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» RE: Quite Aware?
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Quite Aware?
Posted by: AussieGeoff
» Thoughts to Ponder
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Protect the Constitution? You mean the one Bush tore up?
Posted by: Cathyc
» another Paraguay link
Posted by: kellysgarden
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Posted by: debjbaba on Nov 3, 2007 7:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: UGH!!! Simple!
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: UGH!!! Simple!
Posted by: Lauren
» What are the Democrats waiting for? To get into the White House!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: UGH!!!
Posted by: fedupw/bush
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 3, 2007 8:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Simple - Bush, in his last days in office, would pardon them all, just as Bush Sr. pardoned all the Iran-Contra war criminals.
No, these guys should be hunted for the rest of their natural lives for their crimes, just as Pinochet was. Rumsfeld is already getting a taste of what his future holds:
Torture complaint filed against Rumsfeld, Oct 26 2007
"The rights groups say their complaint could go forward because people suspected of torture can be prosecuted in France if they are on French soil.
The complaint will now be examined by French prosecutors, who will decide whether it is well-founded and should be pursued or whether it should be rejected. The Paris prosecutor's office said on Friday night that it was checking whether Rumsfeld is protected by any sort of diplomatic immunity and whether he was still in France."
They are all war criminals, and it actually doesn't matter whether Bush pardons them or not. They will never be able to show their faces in public again.
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» RE: The Pinochet model for Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Miller, Abazaid, and Rumsfeld:
Posted by: Lauren
» Well, hunted with subpoenas and legal proceedings, of course.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: The Pinochet model: OR
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: The Pinochet model for Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Miller, Abazaid, and Rumsfeld:
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
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Posted by: flymulla on Nov 3, 2007 3:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The book is based largely on the captured documents of the Third Reich, ... The reception of William L. Sharer’s 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' in ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
defines one of the methods to torture any one he did not like by tying the “criminal" to a post and pour water constantly drop by drop by drop on his head till he screamed and felt that the drops wear hammering him or death. And he died. Is this what you mean? A slow death? I mean that is a torture to me, the way I read this.
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa
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» RE: Bush Is Right to Worry If Waterboarding Is Defined as Torture
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Nov 3, 2007 6:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But Congress issues a few tepid comments while avoiding the real issues. It has granted legal immunity to torturers and ruled impeachment "off the table." In so doing it, including its members running for president, has thoroughly discredited itself and become an accomplice to crimes. The only way to regain the rule of law and the respect of the world is to vigorously investigate and prosecute all wrongdoers, up to and including Bush.
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Posted by: mcartri on Nov 3, 2007 6:29 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Bush is a Sadistic Dry Drunk Coward
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Bush is a Sadistic Dry Drunk Coward
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» Americans are being tortured every day by their own corrupt govt
Posted by: Cathyc
» Yes, the worst he-man is one who feels guilt from never having done anything that's actually heroic
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: lrrysgl on Nov 3, 2007 6:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the letter reflects, the international legal definition of torture is universally recognized and accepted - and is very different from what Administration lawyers claim. The United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (which I will call "the Torture Convention") forbids torture under any circumstances and does not allow the prohibition to be derogated even in conditions of national emergency.
It's important to note here that the U.S. - as well as all other liberal democracies -- are signatories to the Torture Convention, and that under the Constitution, treaties ratified by the Senate are U.S. law, just like statutes and Supreme Court decisions. So claiming the U.S. has the right to differ from this definition is simply untenable.
Here is the Torture Convention's definition of "torture": "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."
This sensible definition reflects our instincts about what torture is, and why it is wrong. It makes clear that torture to extract information is still torture. And it makes clear, too, that torture need not put its victim on the brink of death to be torture.
One would have thought these points were intuitively clear - until the Administration memos became public. But even if the point wasn't intuitively clear, it was legally clear - as a matter of a treaty that had become U.S. law.
Exclusive: Secret Memo - Send to Be Tortured
By Michael Isikoff
Newsweek
08 August 2005 Issue
An FBI agent warned superiors in a memo three years ago that US officials who discussed plans to ship terror suspects to foreign nations that practice torture could be prosecuted for conspiring to violate US law, according to a copy of the memo obtained by NEWSWEEK.
Torturing Children
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
The biggest story of the Iraq war is about the torture of Iraqi children.
A German TV magazine called 'Report Mainz' recently aired accusations from the International Red Cross, to the effect that over 100 children are imprisoned in U.S.- controlled detention centers, including Abu Ghraib. "Between January and May of this year, we've registered 107 children, during 19 visits in 6 different detention locations," said Red Cross representative Florian Westphal in the report.
September 2, 2006 at 19:13:39
Many High Bush Officials Broke Laws Against Torture
by Sherwood Ross
http://www.opednews.com
Hold For Release 6 PM Monday, September 4, 2006
MANY HIGH BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS
GUILTY OF VIOLATING ANTI-TORTURE LAWS
By Sherwood Ross
At least a score of high Bush Administration officials authorized, and hundreds of U.S. military and other government employees committed, crimes involving the torture of prisoners captured in the Middle East, published reports and legal documents indicate.
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» RE: TORTURE DEFINED
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 3, 2007 7:12 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ncouragement from Bush to Torture Americans Abroad
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: slydad on Nov 4, 2007 3:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Let's lay it out clearly.
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Let's lay it out clearly.
Posted by: Lauren
» No boyscout here
Posted by: slydad
» dad, seriously, i know good families who'll raise your kids right!
Posted by: Coleman
» You are so much better than me.
Posted by: slydad
» torture doesn't work
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: torture doesn't work . . . does too . . .
Posted by: slydad
» maybe "block"?
Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Let's lay it out clearly.
Posted by: Lauren
» hey, "dad": give your kids up for adoption
Posted by: Coleman
» RE: hey, "dad": give your kids up for adoption
Posted by: slydad
» They do much worse.
Posted by: slydad
» I don't know what you do, either, but it isn't protecting your country, you hypocrite
Posted by: Beck
» Name calling is real intellectual
Posted by: slydad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Nov 4, 2007 4:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: History lesson
Posted by: Lauren
» American History lesson: Part I
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: American History lesson: Continued/Part 2
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: American History lesson: Continued/Part 3 --ENJOY!!!
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: bigbad on Nov 4, 2007 10:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was a very clear purpose for the CIA and Defense to use torture to elicit confessions, not intelligence. Just as Cheney was pressuring the CIA executives to give him "proof" of Saddam Hussein's association with Al Qeada, and his holding of WMD, so the lower-level CIA an Defense department interrogators were under pressure to give these answers to their bosses.
The TRUTH was the last thing they wanted.
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Posted by: militaryhater on Nov 4, 2007 10:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not surprised Bush has bought a home in Paraguay. Jenna, his daughter, said on Leno the other day that she and her new husband bought a home in Latin America. The 'great' teacher the media boasts she is, decided 'not' to live here anymore. Why is that? Jenna, leaving the 'greatest country in the world'?
Hmm..it sounds like they know 'They are WAR CRIMINALS' and just like the Nazis in WWII they fled to other countries including Latin America where they couldn't be touched by our Government, other Governments around the world or the
World Court which we refuse to recognize..Yeah, how convenient...the Neocons in Washington are above the law. In
fact, they can rewrite the Laws here to protect themselves and Congress and our Great Supreme Court idiots let them. All Corrupt! A COUP HAS happened here. Wake up!
They will flee and we can't touch them. Haliburton left, so we can't touch them either. It is time to pass laws against Corporations hiding their money oversees and escaping 'back taxes' they owe our country. We have to take the power back from Corporations..We must Fight now! Also, take the power back from Special interests...LOBBYISTS.
We need to vote for all our Supreme Court justices as well. They affect our lives too much and we have a right to vote who we want 're-writing' our laws. Is our Country of the People and by the People? If so, then they need to be elected by us or we have a Dictator as President which is already moving towards and God knows we NEVER EVER WANT THAT.
Take back our Constitution...run the NEOCONS out of Washingtion while they are here on our soil. IMPEACHMENT MUST HAPPEN NOW!!!
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» RE: NeoCons fleeing..and so are their family members
Posted by: Nick
» RE: NeoCons fleeing..and so are their family members
Posted by: Snowpuppy
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Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Nov 5, 2007 3:01 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will continue until the bully bluff is called by enough people who believe what is left of "democracy" is worth keeping alive.
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Posted by: higginslads on Nov 6, 2007 12:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those who are interested in doing something constructive about our current state of affairs, please call your representative and urge them to support Mr. Kucinich's bill. The Capitol switchboard is:
1-800-828-0498
1-800-862-5530
1-800-833-6354
Just ask the operator for your representative's office. If you don't know it, tell her/him where you live and she/he will look it up. Once transferred to your representative's office, politely tell the person who answers the phone that you urge your representative to support Kucinich's articles of impeachment against the vice president. You will probably be asked for your name and address.
I just did this. It's the first time I had ever called my representative (Rodney Frelinghuysen in NJ). It was easy and I felt better after doing it.
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Posted by: ocsailorman on Nov 6, 2007 3:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What has happened to our country? At least in the past our government officials had enough of a sense of propriety to lie about practicing torture. When I was tortured in Colombia 20 years ago it was by Colombian navy personnel who had been trained by the same US CIA contract teams that trained Argentinians and Brazilians. They had, apparently, learned their trade in Vietnam. My torturers thought it funny that Americans taught them how to treat their own people, and then they used the techniques on an American. My guys were really turned on by electric shock administered to genitals, nipples, tongue, ear-lobes and anus. They seemed to like the technology. From my end of the production, the water board was a far worse experience, albeit low-tech. In the former know you are being subjected to excruciating pain, but know in some part of your screaming brain that it will sometime end. In water boarding, you only know you are dying. One thing you didn't mention was what happens when your mouth is covered with a loose cloth and water poured on it. You inhale the soaked cloth into your throat as you attempt to get air into your lungs. As you die, it is jerked out to keep you alive. When it is jerked out, it tears the lining of your throat. Pretty ugly stuff; particularly the second or third time. Oh yeah, ... I voted for Schummer the first time he ran for senator, then voted for Feinstein for re-election after I moved to California. Irony, or what??
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Posted by: whealeydj on Nov 10, 2007 3:54 PM
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Posted by: Soaring on Nov 3, 2007 3:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gerard from Spain
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» RE: Soaring Eagle
Posted by: makeadifference
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: pammers
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: Doug1956
» you don't know this
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: rambleman
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: mindportal1
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: fedupw/bush
» RE: Torture or enhanced interrogation techniques?
Posted by: fedupw/bush
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Posted by: Cueenb on Nov 3, 2007 4:43 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 5 minutes after waterboarding, you're fine
Posted by: mindportal1
» Yet another patriot speaking knowledgeably about torture
Posted by: Beck
» RE: 5 minutes after waterboarding, you're fine
Posted by: fedupw/bush
» RE: Cueenb from Brownsville
Posted by: Amandalee
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Nov 3, 2007 4:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People are now implying that is would be a dangerous thing indeed for America to have a Justice Department without a leader for the next fouteen months. I beg to disagree. It would be a hell of a lot better without a head than we've had for the last seven years, first with Ashcrack (thank you, Jello Biafra), and then Gonzalez. A ship without a rudder won't go anywhere, but that doesn't neccessarily mean it will sink.
Obviousy the First Fool is looking for a nominee with a lot of experiance in the law - BREAKING IT.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan
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» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: ydef
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: Schroeder
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: No-brainer
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: LMNOP on Nov 3, 2007 4:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And this would be likely to work largely because the American people themselves will readily support such a failed ethical and legal standard due to their own egregious moral and intellectual deficiencies.
"You or I may suspect that they were indifferent to the idea of torture in their names, or possibly relished it, but we will never know that."
Just because I can't demonstrate the ten thousand particulars that I have read or heard over the decade which together establish beyond even a reasonable doubt that Bush has no problem with torturing doesn't mean that they don't exist or that collectively they constitute less than a compelling inductive proof.
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» RE: QED
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: QED
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: QED
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: QED
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: packofwolves on Nov 3, 2007 5:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until politicians have to live by the same rules nothing will ever change.
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» RE: What SICK people are capable of is unbelievable
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: LeaderofMen on Nov 3, 2007 6:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is inconceivable that the Dems will call him on this issue either. There is simply not a single act of stupidity that BushCo has been called on since the inception of his installation as President.
Nothing.
Whatsoever.
It is naive to think that this 'little insignificant' issue will be the 'tipping point'. There are far more egregious issues that have simply been glossed over, ignored, spun, etc.
This Presidency is immune to failure, immune to prosecution and will go down in history the way they want to write it. They make reality. They have made reality.
You and I have no say. Our elected officials have no say. If you or me had any say we'd already have an exit strategy out of Iraq and we wouldn't be talking about Iran right now.
See? He and he alone is in charge. You and me don't matter. FORGET talking about any type of turning point. It is irrelevant. All the talk and discussion about these many issues has gotten us NOWHERE. We are not in charge here. We live in a world now where democratic ideas are passe and without foundation anymore.
It's gone on for so long now and the damage is so severe that 2009 will not bring about the changes we need and desire. The American experiment has been over for many years now. I think we're in denial about that.
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» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: ydef
» RE: Getting Away with Torture - NO!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: Old Me
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: Eezee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 3, 2007 6:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After writing the first sentence above, I did a Google search and found a
reference that provides some background on this topic.
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» RE: Quite Aware?
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Quite Aware?
Posted by: AussieGeoff
» Thoughts to Ponder
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» Protect the Constitution? You mean the one Bush tore up?
Posted by: Cathyc
» another Paraguay link
Posted by: kellysgarden
Comments are closed-
Posted by: debjbaba on Nov 3, 2007 7:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: UGH!!! Simple!
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: UGH!!! Simple!
Posted by: Lauren
» What are the Democrats waiting for? To get into the White House!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: UGH!!!
Posted by: fedupw/bush
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 3, 2007 8:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Simple - Bush, in his last days in office, would pardon them all, just as Bush Sr. pardoned all the Iran-Contra war criminals.
No, these guys should be hunted for the rest of their natural lives for their crimes, just as Pinochet was. Rumsfeld is already getting a taste of what his future holds:
Torture complaint filed against Rumsfeld, Oct 26 2007
"The rights groups say their complaint could go forward because people suspected of torture can be prosecuted in France if they are on French soil.
The complaint will now be examined by French prosecutors, who will decide whether it is well-founded and should be pursued or whether it should be rejected. The Paris prosecutor's office said on Friday night that it was checking whether Rumsfeld is protected by any sort of diplomatic immunity and whether he was still in France."
They are all war criminals, and it actually doesn't matter whether Bush pardons them or not. They will never be able to show their faces in public again.
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» RE: The Pinochet model for Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Miller, Abazaid, and Rumsfeld:
Posted by: Lauren
» Well, hunted with subpoenas and legal proceedings, of course.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: The Pinochet model: OR
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: The Pinochet model for Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Miller, Abazaid, and Rumsfeld:
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
Comments are closed-
Posted by: flymulla on Nov 3, 2007 3:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The book is based largely on the captured documents of the Third Reich, ... The reception of William L. Sharer’s 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' in ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
defines one of the methods to torture any one he did not like by tying the “criminal" to a post and pour water constantly drop by drop by drop on his head till he screamed and felt that the drops wear hammering him or death. And he died. Is this what you mean? A slow death? I mean that is a torture to me, the way I read this.
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa
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» RE: Bush Is Right to Worry If Waterboarding Is Defined as Torture
Posted by: talkville
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Nov 3, 2007 6:21 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But Congress issues a few tepid comments while avoiding the real issues. It has granted legal immunity to torturers and ruled impeachment "off the table." In so doing it, including its members running for president, has thoroughly discredited itself and become an accomplice to crimes. The only way to regain the rule of law and the respect of the world is to vigorously investigate and prosecute all wrongdoers, up to and including Bush.
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Posted by: mcartri on Nov 3, 2007 6:29 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Bush is a Sadistic Dry Drunk Coward
Posted by: willymack
» RE: Bush is a Sadistic Dry Drunk Coward
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» Americans are being tortured every day by their own corrupt govt
Posted by: Cathyc
» Yes, the worst he-man is one who feels guilt from never having done anything that's actually heroic
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lrrysgl on Nov 3, 2007 6:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the letter reflects, the international legal definition of torture is universally recognized and accepted - and is very different from what Administration lawyers claim. The United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (which I will call "the Torture Convention") forbids torture under any circumstances and does not allow the prohibition to be derogated even in conditions of national emergency.
It's important to note here that the U.S. - as well as all other liberal democracies -- are signatories to the Torture Convention, and that under the Constitution, treaties ratified by the Senate are U.S. law, just like statutes and Supreme Court decisions. So claiming the U.S. has the right to differ from this definition is simply untenable.
Here is the Torture Convention's definition of "torture": "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."
This sensible definition reflects our instincts about what torture is, and why it is wrong. It makes clear that torture to extract information is still torture. And it makes clear, too, that torture need not put its victim on the brink of death to be torture.
One would have thought these points were intuitively clear - until the Administration memos became public. But even if the point wasn't intuitively clear, it was legally clear - as a matter of a treaty that had become U.S. law.
Exclusive: Secret Memo - Send to Be Tortured
By Michael Isikoff
Newsweek
08 August 2005 Issue
An FBI agent warned superiors in a memo three years ago that US officials who discussed plans to ship terror suspects to foreign nations that practice torture could be prosecuted for conspiring to violate US law, according to a copy of the memo obtained by NEWSWEEK.
Torturing Children
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
The biggest story of the Iraq war is about the torture of Iraqi children.
A German TV magazine called 'Report Mainz' recently aired accusations from the International Red Cross, to the effect that over 100 children are imprisoned in U.S.- controlled detention centers, including Abu Ghraib. "Between January and May of this year, we've registered 107 children, during 19 visits in 6 different detention locations," said Red Cross representative Florian Westphal in the report.
September 2, 2006 at 19:13:39
Many High Bush Officials Broke Laws Against Torture
by Sherwood Ross
http://www.opednews.com
Hold For Release 6 PM Monday, September 4, 2006
MANY HIGH BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS
GUILTY OF VIOLATING ANTI-TORTURE LAWS
By Sherwood Ross
At least a score of high Bush Administration officials authorized, and hundreds of U.S. military and other government employees committed, crimes involving the torture of prisoners captured in the Middle East, published reports and legal documents indicate.
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» RE: TORTURE DEFINED
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 3, 2007 7:12 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ncouragement from Bush to Torture Americans Abroad
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: slydad on Nov 4, 2007 3:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Let's lay it out clearly.
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Let's lay it out clearly.
Posted by: Lauren
» No boyscout here
Posted by: slydad
» dad, seriously, i know good families who'll raise your kids right!
Posted by: Coleman
» You are so much better than me.
Posted by: slydad
» torture doesn't work
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: torture doesn't work . . . does too . . .
Posted by: slydad
» maybe "block"?
Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Let's lay it out clearly.
Posted by: Lauren
» hey, "dad": give your kids up for adoption
Posted by: Coleman
» RE: hey, "dad": give your kids up for adoption
Posted by: slydad
» They do much worse.
Posted by: slydad
» I don't know what you do, either, but it isn't protecting your country, you hypocrite
Posted by: Beck
» Name calling is real intellectual
Posted by: slydad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Nov 4, 2007 4:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: History lesson
Posted by: Lauren
» American History lesson: Part I
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: American History lesson: Continued/Part 2
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: American History lesson: Continued/Part 3 --ENJOY!!!
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bigbad on Nov 4, 2007 10:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was a very clear purpose for the CIA and Defense to use torture to elicit confessions, not intelligence. Just as Cheney was pressuring the CIA executives to give him "proof" of Saddam Hussein's association with Al Qeada, and his holding of WMD, so the lower-level CIA an Defense department interrogators were under pressure to give these answers to their bosses.
The TRUTH was the last thing they wanted.
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Posted by: militaryhater on Nov 4, 2007 10:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not surprised Bush has bought a home in Paraguay. Jenna, his daughter, said on Leno the other day that she and her new husband bought a home in Latin America. The 'great' teacher the media boasts she is, decided 'not' to live here anymore. Why is that? Jenna, leaving the 'greatest country in the world'?
Hmm..it sounds like they know 'They are WAR CRIMINALS' and just like the Nazis in WWII they fled to other countries including Latin America where they couldn't be touched by our Government, other Governments around the world or the
World Court which we refuse to recognize..Yeah, how convenient...the Neocons in Washington are above the law. In
fact, they can rewrite the Laws here to protect themselves and Congress and our Great Supreme Court idiots let them. All Corrupt! A COUP HAS happened here. Wake up!
They will flee and we can't touch them. Haliburton left, so we can't touch them either. It is time to pass laws against Corporations hiding their money oversees and escaping 'back taxes' they owe our country. We have to take the power back from Corporations..We must Fight now! Also, take the power back from Special interests...LOBBYISTS.
We need to vote for all our Supreme Court justices as well. They affect our lives too much and we have a right to vote who we want 're-writing' our laws. Is our Country of the People and by the People? If so, then they need to be elected by us or we have a Dictator as President which is already moving towards and God knows we NEVER EVER WANT THAT.
Take back our Constitution...run the NEOCONS out of Washingtion while they are here on our soil. IMPEACHMENT MUST HAPPEN NOW!!!
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» RE: NeoCons fleeing..and so are their family members
Posted by: Nick
» RE: NeoCons fleeing..and so are their family members
Posted by: Snowpuppy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Nov 5, 2007 3:01 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It will continue until the bully bluff is called by enough people who believe what is left of "democracy" is worth keeping alive.
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Posted by: higginslads on Nov 6, 2007 12:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those who are interested in doing something constructive about our current state of affairs, please call your representative and urge them to support Mr. Kucinich's bill. The Capitol switchboard is:
1-800-828-0498
1-800-862-5530
1-800-833-6354
Just ask the operator for your representative's office. If you don't know it, tell her/him where you live and she/he will look it up. Once transferred to your representative's office, politely tell the person who answers the phone that you urge your representative to support Kucinich's articles of impeachment against the vice president. You will probably be asked for your name and address.
I just did this. It's the first time I had ever called my representative (Rodney Frelinghuysen in NJ). It was easy and I felt better after doing it.
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Posted by: ocsailorman on Nov 6, 2007 3:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What has happened to our country? At least in the past our government officials had enough of a sense of propriety to lie about practicing torture. When I was tortured in Colombia 20 years ago it was by Colombian navy personnel who had been trained by the same US CIA contract teams that trained Argentinians and Brazilians. They had, apparently, learned their trade in Vietnam. My torturers thought it funny that Americans taught them how to treat their own people, and then they used the techniques on an American. My guys were really turned on by electric shock administered to genitals, nipples, tongue, ear-lobes and anus. They seemed to like the technology. From my end of the production, the water board was a far worse experience, albeit low-tech. In the former know you are being subjected to excruciating pain, but know in some part of your screaming brain that it will sometime end. In water boarding, you only know you are dying. One thing you didn't mention was what happens when your mouth is covered with a loose cloth and water poured on it. You inhale the soaked cloth into your throat as you attempt to get air into your lungs. As you die, it is jerked out to keep you alive. When it is jerked out, it tears the lining of your throat. Pretty ugly stuff; particularly the second or third time. Oh yeah, ... I voted for Schummer the first time he ran for senator, then voted for Feinstein for re-election after I moved to California. Irony, or what??
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Posted by: whealeydj on Nov 10, 2007 3:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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