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Rights and Liberties

The Strange Journey of Ayaan Hirsi Ali: From Devout Muslim to Outspoken "Feminist" Critic of Islam

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted November 12, 2007.


American conservatives embrace Dutch firebrand's calls for destruction of Islam.
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The former "liberal" who becomes an outspoken right-winger has become an American political archetype. Ronald Reagan and David Horowiz are two prime examples of the breed.

They use the rhetorical tool of claiming to be just as caring and compassionate as their previous political incarnation, but the left's irrationality and hatred of (you pick it) the West, America, Christianity, capitalism, etc. caused them to wake up one morning and see the light. And having transformed from lefty caterpillar into a right-leaning butterfly, they present themselves as qualified to comment on liberalism's moral and intellectual failures.

Recently, a related version of this turncoat persona -- former Dutch Member of Parliament Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- has emerged: a "reformed" Muslim woman who favors crushing Islam under the boot of Western militarism. Once very devout in her Muslim beliefs, Ali has gained a great deal of media attention -- including horrific tales of her abuse at the hands of Muslim men -- and has transformed into an outspoken critic who bases her calls for the destruction of Islam on feminist and human rights principles.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a proud Somali woman raised in a devout Muslim family. She is poised to become the most recognizable face of naked Islamophobia in America. Expect to see her as a ubiquitous guest on cable news channels and frequent contributor of op-eds reinforcing the worst stereotypes about the Muslim world. She'll validate already disturbingly common narratives about the perfidy of Islam, and she'll tout the vast superiority of Western thinking in stark terms that would be shocking coming from a more traditional (read: white, Christian) right-wing commentator.

It's a criticism of Islam, coming from the left, which has the potential to unite the Islamophobic right with an increasingly vocal secular movement. It also provides cover for extremist views, bringing hateful rhetoric that's typically been confined to the margins into the mainstream and broadening the already frighteningly large constituency that exists in the U.S. for a series of "preventive" wars in the Middle East, Central Asia and elsewhere.

She has been called an "enlightenment fundamentalist" in Europe and is a hated apostate in much of the Muslim world. She lives under a flurry of death threats and needs round-the-clock security.

Because she's an intelligent and articulate woman who has suffered horrific abuses in a Muslim family, her generalizations about the entire Islalmic world are imbued with an unwarranted authority. There's a real danger that people like Hirsi Ali -- the tiny percentage of the Muslim world who believe that Islam really is "the problem" will skew the debate about U.S. relations with the Muslim world.

Thank God for the Enlightenment

Hirsi Ali has become a darling of those who believe in the benevolence of Western hegemony; The Economist described her as a "cultural ideologue of the new right." But she's more than that; Hirsi Ali occupies a unique space in the political landscape. Her outspoken advocacy on feminist ethical issues -- roundly condemning "honor killings" and female circumcision -- has also made her a poster-girl for the aggressive brand of atheism typified by figures like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, all three of whom have held her life-story up as an example of the harms caused by religion in general, and Islam in particular. For them, she's a living testament to the idea that rational liberal interventionists in the post-Enlightenment West have a moral duty to wage a new crusade against the Muslim world. Harris and Salman Rushdie penned an op-ed in the Los Angeles Times calling Hirsi Ali a "unique and indispensable witness to both the strength and weakness of the West: to the splendor of open society and to the boundless energy of its antagonists."

Neely Tucker wrote in the Washington Post that "Neoconservative, middle-aged white men … tend to swoon when she walks into the room." Hirsi Ali is indeed charming and articulate, possessed of a rare intelligence and gifted with exceptional language and political skills. But she's also an extremist, by any measure. She goes beyond others who embrace the idea of a "Clash of Civilizations" -- people like Tony Blankley and Michael Ledeen -- in her insistence that all of Islam is extreme. "There is no moderate Islam," she told Reason. There can only be peace between East and West, she said, "if Islam is defeated." When asked if she meant radical Islam, she replied: "No. Islam, period. Once it's defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It's very difficult to even talk about peace now. They're not interested in peace."

She calls the religion, with 1.3 billion adherents worldwide, a "death cult."

That's a popular claim in the post-9/11 era, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali is no doubt set for life. Her long journey has taken her from Africa to Europe and now, finally, to the right-wing American Enterprise Institute (she's currently working out of Holland because the Dutch government refused to pay for her body-guards in DC). As long as the concept of a broken and dysfunctional Muslim world is used to justify Western militarism in the Middle East and Central Asia, Hirsi Ali will have a cushy sinecure somewhere within the right-wing media establishment, ready to be rolled out as exhibit A in the case against whatever country is that day's enemy-du-jour and, perhaps more importantly, against anyone who views the Muslim world as anything other than a uniform bunch of blood-thirsty maniacs.


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Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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I can't imagine why anyone would take her seriously.
Posted by: pig on Nov 12, 2007 12:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She's a perjurer, ran around with neofascists and now is a paid propagandist for the AEI, who are just as evil and less honest.

Not worth the electrons.

Oink.

Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
A pathological liar
Posted by: Fiorenzo on Nov 12, 2007 1:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Update from Holland...Actually this woman has never been a muslim, she lied about everything, she did not originate in Somalia, but in Kenya...she is one of the new breed of minority politician who makes money by smearing minorities and being "threatened"....beware of this woman before she ruins life for US muslim women like she did here in Holland

» never been a muslim? Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: never been a muslim? Posted by: Fiorenzo
» RE: A pathological liar Posted by: Centavo
» What on earth do you mean? Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: A pathological liar Posted by: Lector
» RE: A pathological liar Posted by: theou
The holy Ayaan/Theo van Gogh
Posted by: igancedo on Nov 12, 2007 1:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can watch here http://zembla.vara.nl/About_ZEMBLA.2200.0.html a Dutch program, with English subtitles, where Hirsi Ali tells about her life in Africa and how she got to The Netherlands.

Theo van Gogh shared with Pim Fortuyn his contempt for certain aspects of Muslim culture -if that is the correct expression-, but he was in no way an associate of Fortuyn's.

AYAAN HIRSI ALI - SELF-SERVING OPPORTUNIST
Posted by: JustHarry on Nov 12, 2007 4:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ayaan Hirsi Ali - wherever she actually comes from - is certainly a very crafty and ambitious woman! At every stage of her life, she capitalized on opportunities, drags herself to the next level, seeks more opportunities - accordingly adjusts her stance to suit the moment - promotes herself further.

That's her formula for success. Pure and simple. Make use of people and circumstances, create controversy but making sure that she's on the right side of 'might'.

Aayan is courageous and speaks the truth
Posted by: EasterBunny on Nov 12, 2007 4:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
people should read her books and see what a fascinating personal journey she has undergone and how articulate and intelligent she is. she tells the truth that some some don't want to hear: that islam is badly in need of reform. in its current form it is a violent, misogynistic, reactionary belief system. she is not calling for its destruction. she wants an islamic enlightenment and reformation to end the stranglehold that conservative islam has on 1 billion people. in other words, she wants the same reform process to take place in islam that happened in europe and that broke the hold of the catholic clerics and ushered in the modern world. it's sad to see how the beneficiaries of the enlightenment turn on aayan. there's something downright racist about the attitude that the enlightenment is okay for westerners but not for muslims, like the "natives" can't handle the freedom.

» RE: Cultural relativism Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Aayan is courageous and speaks the truth Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: Aayan is courageous and speaks the truth Posted by: anonymous black writer
» Mis-guided anger Posted by: Lesha
» RE: Aayan is courageous and speaks the truth Posted by: anonymous black writer
Fox News' New Poster Girl
Posted by: herronsmith on Nov 12, 2007 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am sure Fox news will "adopt" her wholeheartedly. She may even wed (not against her will I hope) Bill O'Reilley. Oh happy day! A match made in Off-Kilterville.

pathetic distortions by joshua
Posted by: EasterBunny on Nov 12, 2007 5:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
come on. joshua tries to conflate honor killings in islam with "violence by intimates" in the West.

honor killing are RARELY committed by husbands or boyfriends, they are committed by the woman's family: brothers, uncles, cousins, sometimes the father himself murders his OWN daughter because of some perceived insult to family honor. if you can't see the difference between an abusive husband murdering his wife and her OWN FAMILY doing it, then you totally discredit yourself joshua. of course there is violence everywhere, but the specific forms of violence in islam seem aimed at controlling women in the same way that lynchings in the american south were used to control blacks. one of the MANY critical difference that joshua glosses over is that in america society does not condone a man murdering his wife. that man will be arrested, sent to jail for life. in many muslim countries honor killers get off scott free or with token punishments. but i guess those pesky facts need not get in the way of The Muslim Apologist, AKA Joshua Holland.

» RE: pathetic distortions by joshua Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: pathetic distortions by joshua Posted by: EasterBunny
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: pathetic distortions by joshua Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: pathetic distortions Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: pathetic distortions Posted by: hms2004
» RE: pathetic distortions Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: pathetic distortions by joshua Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: "Ring any bells?" Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Islam isn't all about hitting women Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: Islam isn't all about hitting women Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: pathetic distortions by joshua Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: pathetic distortions by joshua Posted by: anonymous black writer
'Embraced by the Right' sounds apt.....
Posted by: Aureantes on Nov 12, 2007 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....because, at least the way I've heard it recounted more dispassionately over a year ago, the multiculturalism of the Netherlands preferred to abandon her rather than listen to what she was actually saying -- and whether or not her background is true, the things that she talks about are. The fact that we now have a Muslim spokeperson in the UK calling for modified sharia law to be introduced and cultural integration to "go both ways" certainly does highlight that, wherever they go, some Muslims -- though they may consider themselves to be moderate -- nonethless maintain a fundamental religious arrogance, one that is not exclusive to Islam by any means but has been significantly untempered by cultural evolution and religious self-challenging. One may accurately say that the "Left" that Hirsi Ali knew betrayed her, in refusing to see that cultural extremism can easily lurk in the most enlightened and pluralistic of societies -- if they refuse to see it as a actual problem when it is. The fact that the American Enterprise Institute jumped on the chance to claim her for the Right represents a failure of common sense on the part of those who claim to want a society where no religion claims dominance over others nor attempts to conquer every culture it meets. Whether or not Islam will find itself in a position to be destroyed, it certainly (like many self-assured religious and anti-religious factions) does need to be humbled.

Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Thanks Josh...but...you bum me out...
Posted by: sausage on Nov 12, 2007 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks for the exposé, Josh. But now the features of my favorite Somolia atheist, dreamgirl are morphing into the hideous Gorgon-mask of Ann Coulter!!

» *yawn* Posted by: sausage
» RE: *yawn* Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: *yawn* Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: *yawn* Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: *yawn* Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: *yawn* Posted by: Enigma
» RE: *yawn* Posted by: anonymous black writer
lots of generalizations
Posted by: ladyoracle on Nov 12, 2007 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't see anything useful about criticizing Ali's feminist critique of Islam--in terms of it not considering that women in other groups also face oppression and abuse. Taking that line makes it impossible to object to sexism; one thing feminism has learned is that articulating for specific groups of women is a way to get our ideals to become policy. Of course many Christian women face different kinds of oppression and sexism, but why does that make it irrational to discuss oppression of Islamic women? Ali bases her critique on Western feminist PRINCIPLES, which like any other principles, including democratic ones in the U.S., are not always universally materialized. What I find interesting is that the right so heartily welcomes an outspoken FEMINIST, which would create a cat fight between Ali and Coulter, for instance, and most certainly means that the right doesn't endorse all of Ali's feminist views, but suffers through them for her zenophobic reaction to Islam.

I was brought up as a fundamentalist christian, which means for myself, my childhood was miserable, and I am still badly damaged by that upbringing and my family's continued use of emotional manipulation to try and rein me back into the fold. So, yes, I see Christians as uncompromising hate-mongerers who oppress women and do no honor democratic principles when they do not support their religious views.

Unlike Ali, I know that there are moderate and tolerant Christians, but it just happens that wasn't the group I was raised within. But I do not blame her for her feelings or what she has to say, not even that she wants to get rid of Islam totally. That is a result of her going from one side of extreme to another, which is a psychological conditioning of an extremist upbringing; one can only break out by going into the other extreme.

If left to her own devices and not put into the limelight, I think in time she would read and listen to others enough to come into her own more moderate view. I hope she gets that chance.

» Yes - this alliance won't last! Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: lots of generalizations Posted by: SatanicJamboree
A media Savvy power prostitue
Posted by: farhada on Nov 12, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She is nothing but a power prostitute, she will do anything, say anything to be on the spot light. She is like your own Ann Coulter who would not think twice before making up a story to achieve her own goals.

the fact that she is a woman, and a muslim, makes her like a goddess among the westerners who are dying to have a muslim Ann Coulter to be able to justify their hate and racism.

She is from a rich family with little or no connection with the reality of life among those she supposedly represents. Her books and views can be looked at Cheney's daughter's book about the poor people in south America.

» RE: A media Savvy power prostitue Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Michael Moore Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Michael Moore Posted by: farhada
» have you read her books? Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: have you read her books? Posted by: farhada
» RE: Michael Moore Posted by: davmills
» RE: A media Savvy power prostitue Posted by: anonymous black writer
She's a canny con
Posted by: DesertStone on Nov 12, 2007 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is very possible that she very purposefully formulated her story as a way to political stardom. Whether she originated in Somalia or Kenya is irrelevant as anyone knows that white supremacists of western societies will always foster a minority who speaks out against their tribe. Michelle Malkin, Bill Cosby etc in the sense that if you reaffirm what the white man believes about people of color you have earned an instant ticket to adoration and fame amongst the masses of western societies.

» RE: She's a canny con Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Reading Comprehension Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: She's a canny con Posted by: Enigma
» RE: She's a canny con Posted by: anonymous black writer
whay ayaan really believes
Posted by: EasterBunny on Nov 12, 2007 6:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Full text: Writers' statement on cartoons
A group of 12 writers have put their names to a statement in French weekly newspaper Charlie Hebdo warning against Islamic "totalitarianism". Here is the text in full:


"After having overcome fascism, Nazism, and Stalinism, the world now faces a new global totalitarian threat: Islamism.

We, writers, journalists, intellectuals, call for resistance to religious totalitarianism and for the promotion of freedom, equal opportunity and secular values for all.

Recent events, prompted by the publication of drawings of Muhammad in European newspapers, have revealed the necessity of the struggle for these universal values.

This struggle will not be won by arms, but in the ideological field.

It is not a clash of civilisations nor an antagonism between West and East that we are witnessing, but a global struggle that confronts democrats and theocrats.

Like all totalitarian ideologies, Islamism is nurtured by fear and frustration.

Preachers of hatred play on these feelings to build the forces with which they can impose a world where liberty is crushed and inequality reigns.

But we say this, loud and clear: nothing, not even despair, justifies choosing darkness, totalitarianism and hatred.

Islamism is a reactionary ideology that kills equality, freedom and secularism wherever it is present.

Its victory can only lead to a world of injustice and domination: men over women, fundamentalists over others.

On the contrary, we must ensure access to universal rights for the oppressed or those discriminated against.

We reject the "cultural relativism" which implies an acceptance that men and women of Muslim culture are deprived of the right to equality, freedom and secularism in the name of the respect for certain cultures and traditions.

We refuse to renounce our critical spirit out of fear of being accused of "Islamophobia", a wretched concept that confuses criticism of Islam as a religion and stigmatisation of those who believe in it.

We defend the universality of the freedom of expression, so that a critical spirit can exist in every continent, towards each and every maltreatment and dogma.

We appeal to democrats and free spirits in every country that our century may be one of light and not dark. "

Signed by:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Chahla Chafiq

Caroline Fourest

Bernard-Henri Levy

Irshad Manji

Mehdi Mozaffari

Maryam Namazie

Taslima Nasreen

Salman Rushdie

Antoine Sfeir

Philippe Val

Ibn Warraq

» Multicultural appologists Posted by: moflard
» Women and Genital mutilation Posted by: moflard
» RE: whay ayaan really believes Posted by: anonymous black writer
» EB and anyone else... Posted by: Enigma
What is Wrong With Thinking Critically
Posted by: Maya on Nov 12, 2007 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How can this author have a problem with critical analysis? What is wrong with saying that it is unjust to force women in to marriage, commit honor killings, condone domestic violence, and murder women because they demand equality and respect for themselves as full human beings?

» This is not the point Posted by: JusticeForAll
» RE: This is not the point Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: This is not the point Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: This is not the point Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: What is Wrong With Thinking Critically Posted by: anonymous black writer
Ayan Hirsi Ali = Michelle Malkin = Ann Coulter = Dinesh D'Souza
Posted by: PakiBoy on Nov 12, 2007 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ayan Hirsi Ali is a paid stooge for neocon AEI. She is, just another stooge in a long line of minorities that are hired by conservatives "think-tanks" to trash fellow minority. Michelle Malkin is darling of the right. Her claim to fame is calling for muslim internment & getting rid of immigrants & their anchor babies. Turns out, she herself was an anchor-baby.
Dinesh D'Souza is another one of the minority hired gun. These uncle-tom minorities provide a cover for the conservatives to trash minorities without getting labeled xenophobes or racists.

No objective person would ever quote Malkin as a credible source of criticism on immigranst, or D'Souza on minority rights. Or Ann Coulter on feminist rights for obvious reasons. or Alan Keys on blacks.

White supremacy, sensing the need of repackaging itself for consumption in polite company, partially fills the demand for racist bile by outsourcing to mercenary writers of color. Michelle Malkin and Dinesh D'Souza--of Filipino and Indian descent, respectively--are top guns of the genre, ever eager to slander non-whites, especially Blacks, as threats to Euro-American white "civilization." For premium fees, Malkin and D'Souza act as trusted Gunga Dins and shock troops for fascism.

The corporate media makes advocates of racism and white American supremacy very rich. American racism also gives certain non-white people advantages. They are able to escape the indignity that black Americans face. They are then able to disassociate themselves and become allies with the very worst and most dangerous aspects of political life in this country.

Islamophobia is a big hit these days, so in comes Hirsi Ali the mercenary, playing the same role as Malkin, Coulter, D'Souza et al.

And finally, anybody associated with AEI (yes the same 'think-tank' that brought Eye-Rak war-crimes) has no credibility.

Hirsi Ali's credibility (or lack thereof)
Posted by: PakiBoy on Nov 12, 2007 7:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we witness the rise of Islamophobia, another phenomenon is simultaneously occurring: the emergence of self-proclaimed "experts" on Islam and the Muslim world who are mostly either ex-Muslims or non-Muslims. Coincidence? Perhaps not. Indeed, it would be difficult to determine which phenomenon is the cause and which is the effect; it is more likely that both exert reciprocal influence.
One such "expert" figure is Ayaan Hirsi Ali, former Dutch parliamentarian and now a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), a conservative think tank. A self-confessed atheist who has no academic or scholarly background in Qur’anic or Islamic Studies, Hirsi Ali claims she is seeking to reform the Muslim world, while at the same time identifying Islam itself as the source of all trouble.

Skepticism, anyone?

In fact, Hirsi Ali’s background can be termed dubious at best.

In 1992, she arrived in the Netherlands seeking asylum.

Claming she was running away from Somalia’s civil war, she gave a false name and age to Dutch authorities. She had actually arrived from Kenya, where she had been a refugee for 10 years.

She later justified the fabrications by saying she was escaping an arranged marriage and feared revenge from her tribe.

A review in The Economist notes, however, that "last May a Dutch television documentary suggested that while Ms Hirsi Ali did run away from a marriage, her life was in no danger. The subsequent uproar nearly cost Ms Hirsi Ali her Dutch citizenship, which may be the reason why she is careful here to re-state how much she feared her family when she first arrived in the Netherlands. But the facts as she tells them about the many chances she passed up to get out of the marriage how her father and his clan disapproved of violence against women; how relatives already in the Netherlands helped her to gain asylum; and how her ex-husband peaceably agreed to a divorce hardly seem to bear her out."

Jytte Klausen, a professor at Brandeis University who knows Ali and has followed her case, has said, "She wasn’t forced into a marriage. She had an amicable relationship with her husband, as well as with the rest of the family. It was not true that she had to hide from her family for years."

One may ignore or even forgive her false pretenses but for the fact that "she has built a career out of portraying herself as the lifelong victim of fanatical Muslims" and, thus, her questionable background has critical implications for her credibility and, by the same token, for her arguments.

The insincerity of Hirsi Ali’s case is further exacerbated when, on one hand, she claims to want to reform Islam and Muslims, and, on the other, she utters alienating and divisive statements such as "Islam is backward" or "The Prophet is a tyrant and a pervert."

First, one who holds in sheer contempt the very religion or philosophy that one professes to reform is hardly qualified to do so.

» ad hominen attacks Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Easterbunny Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: ad hominen attacks Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: Hirsi Ali's credibility (or lack thereof) Posted by: anonymous black writer
As an Arab woman and a feminist, I can tell you that
Posted by: JusticeForAll on Nov 12, 2007 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this woman delays the "liberation" of women in the Arab and Muslim world and destroys any chance that we might have as natives to make a difference. It is known that she is a lair, who lacks credibility, who is willing to say ANYTHING to get what she wants. Instead of embracing her, embrace women who identify with Arab and/or Muslim culture and are progressive!! these women can relate and debate with their countrymen and women. There are tons of us out there (Progressive Arab and/or Muslim women), but we are denied access to the public, we have no voice...because it is anti-imperialists to be Muslim and/or Arab and a feminist at the same time... it is anti-colonialist to be Arab and queer at the same time... Only Arab and Muslim haters are welcome on mainstream media, only those who are willing to justify aggression against Arabs and Muslims are embraced by neo-cons and their mouthpieces.

And please, please, let us not ignore the hundreds of American women killed and raped every year in crimes of passion here in America, or that gays and lesbian do not have the same rights as straight people... let us not forget the poor and the hungry.. or that African Americans and Latinos and are not given an equal chance.. So before spreading "democracy" and "human rights" abroad, let's fix it here in the land of the free.

» Agreed Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Agreed Posted by: JusticeForAll
» RE: Agreed Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: Agreed Posted by: JusticeForAll
» RE: Agreed Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Agreed Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: Agreed Posted by: EasterBunny
» And now speaking as a queer arab... Posted by: JusticeForAll
» RE: And now speaking as a queer arab... Posted by: anonymous black writer
» High horse? Posted by: counterpoint
No surprise
Posted by: particle on Nov 12, 2007 7:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that an article like this would get the Muslim bashers frothing at the mouth.

Why is it so hard to treat culture in its complexity without casting whole groups of people as hateful cartoon caricatures?

Honor killing has been practiced in different cultures to different degrees at different periods in history. "Crimes of honor" used to go unpunished in some western countries, and it is rarer in Muslim Indonesia than in rural Pakistan. If it tends to happen in more rural regions of a country does that mean farming makes people evil? It's an expression of ignorance.

You abhor honor killing? Well you should, in all its forms. For many in America, Shock & Awe(TM) was just one big celebratory orgy of honor killing without regard for age or gender.

» RE: "Shock and Awe" still shocking Posted by: DesertStone
Hmmm!
Posted by: BazookaTooth on Nov 12, 2007 7:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see how you'd talk about Islam after experiencing it at its very worst, including FGM and the deahs of people you dearly love. Have you ever been involved in any kind of fundamentalism at *all*? If you were, you would know better.

I wonder if you think Christopher Hitchens' attacks on religion are any better?

» RE: Hmmm! Posted by: anonymous black writer
Where Hirsii Ali is lying most!
Posted by: salamah on Nov 12, 2007 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam. In Egypt and Ethiopia, the Christian Copts have been carrying out female circumcision from time immemorial, before Islam set its foot in these two countries.
2. Child marriage in Hindu India goes back 10 milleniums.
3. Arranged marriages are endemic throughout the World. Remember, arranged marriages of kings, queens and royalty in Europe?
Why single out Islam on these three unpalatable but age hold customs?
Finally, for 1400 years, Islam has been spreading because of what its core messages are. For the same reason, it will keep on spreading, whether the likes of Hirsii, Salman Rushdie and Pat Robertson like it or not and despite the membership of parliaments, knighthood and millions of dollars for those who hate Islam and want it crushed by GI boots or nukes. I know the Penatagon will never release the figures but Hirsii should ask for the number of GI's that converted to Islam during the First Gulf War of Pappy Bush! may be this shrew will get into a noisier tantrum.

» Trite platitudes... Posted by: pig
» RE: Where Hirsii Ali is lying most! Posted by: anonymous black writer
acid attacks in pakistan
Posted by: EasterBunny on Nov 12, 2007 8:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
yes, it is worse in islam. how many acid attacks take place in the west? they are almost unheard of, but in south asian muslim communities, they are common. please go to the link and view the horrible photo of this poor woman Bushra Hali.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1908/
context/archive



MULTAN, Pakistan (WOMENSENEWS)--Almost two years after relatives of a disgruntled suitor attacked his family with acid and killed two of his children, Daud Aziz Siddiqi is still in deep grief.

"I watched her melt away day by day . . . one day I woke up and her ear was gone," Siddiqi says of his hospital stay with 18-year-old daughter Rabia.

As he speaks, his wife Tahira sobs beside him. "If someone is shot with a bullet, most times there is surgery and then it is gone. With acid the pain just goes on and on and on."

The attack occurred early in the morning of July 23, 2002, as the Siddiqis, their daughter Rabia, and granddaughter, 4-year old Khola, slept in the courtyard of their Multan home. A father of a suitor the Siddiqis had declined as a mate for Rabia scaled the wall and splashed acid on the sleeping figures.

From within the house another family member heard their screams and ran out to witness the attacker, Zafar Siyal, fleeing.

When the Siddiqis reached the hospital, the skin had melted from Tahira's back and right arm. Rabia and Khola were more severely disfigured.

In an attempt to channel their agony the Siddiqis are pursuing the case in Pakistan courts and speaking out in the national media against a form of violence that disfigures hundreds of women every year in this South Asian nation.

'Sharp Water' in Urdu

They call it "tezab," sharp water in Urdu. Normally used for agricultural purposes, nitric and hydrochloric acid are easily obtainable and all too often turned into weapons for men against women and their families.

After confessing, Siyal was found guilty in December 2003 and assigned punishment under Pakistan's "Qisas" law which calls for a perpetrator to suffer the same fate as a victim. The case is now under appeals as Siyal attempts to avoid the judge's assigned punishment of having drops of acid placed in his eyes.

Hundreds of women every year fall victim to acid attacks usually at the hands of their husbands, jilted suitors or other family members. In 2002, 280 Pakistani women died and 750 were left disfigured by acid attacks according to a Human Rights Watch report issued last summer.

The majority of attacks occur in rural areas where tribal law dominates and violence is common way to settle disputes. In central and southern Punjab province, where Multan is located, cases of reported acid attacks have been steadily rising, from nine in 2001, to 56 in 2002, to 74 in 2003.

Sometimes the attacked women are seeking a divorce or the husband is seeking a second wife over the first's objections. Sometimes the triggering event can be as trivial as an argument over grocery money.

Many Cases Unreported

"Many cases go unreported as most women do not know their rights, or the culprits take the victim for medical treatment, claiming it was an accident, and threaten the victim or her children if she speaks out" says Wasim Muntizar, deputy coordinator for the Centre for Legal Aid and Settlement, a nongovernmental organization in Pakistan that helps defend and care for impoverished people.

"Lawyers usually have only the story told by the victim, rarely do any witnesses step forward . . . thus the conviction rate is well below 5 percent," Muntizar says. "Few cases ever even get to the courts."

see link above for full story....

» RE: Violence Against Women in US&A Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: Violence Against Women in US&A Posted by: anonymous black writer
What If Ali, Reagan and Horowitz Were Spies All Along?
Posted by: Nuuon on Nov 12, 2007 8:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was an interesting piece posted about Hirsi Ali
back in May of 2006 that already covered most of the
issues addressed in the above article. One wonders
if people like Ronald Reagan and David Horowitz were
"seeded" among the left to act as spies and eventual
"turncoats" as a means of discrediting the left.

The post is on Hirsi Ali is titled:

"Case History: Black Women 'Pimped' by White Power."

FEMALE CIRCUMCISION
Posted by: Ipsi Dixit on Nov 12, 2007 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can people please stop referring to Female Circumcision by the emotive term Female Genital Mutilation.
The latter phrase is one created by people in the west (Germain Greer - Female Eunuch, et al) as a phrase deliberately calculated to stigmatize entire cultures and make it impossible to defend it or argue for/against it rationally. It's akin to the phrase "sexual abuse" when talking of sex with children: it closes down debate by allowing people only to discuss things within a certain paradigm, instantly and automatically disadvantaging those who would rather prefer to take a more objective and relativist approach to things.
We westerners should stop interfering in other people's cultures, giving them lectures on our morality. Other people's cultures should be accepted as they are, in their entirety, and without value-judgements passed into law by what amounts to a 'soft' form of moral/cultural imperialism by ourselves.
If non-western peoples should wish to change aspects of their culture then they are free to do so; but not if it's because of exposure to western values, or driven by western values, or foisted on them by a small westernized elite (a la Pakistan) who are possessed of a value-system not of their own making and not necessarily shared by the majority of its people.

» Stop cutting BOYS too- Posted by: WitchyNy
» RE: FEMALE CIRCUMCISION Posted by: Gisele
You dare criticize a woman of color who calls herself a "feminist"?
Posted by: Q30 on Nov 12, 2007 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MISOGYNIST!!1!!11!!!

RACIST!!!!111!!!

» RE: No Posted by: oregoncharles
Ayaan
Posted by: jjray on Nov 12, 2007 10:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ayaan has a compelling story. I found her book Infidel to be heart wrenching. My problem with Ayaan is not that she condemns Islam for it's treatment of women. The religion needs to be condemned and doing so does not IMHO amount to Islamofascism. But where does Ayaan get off thinking the answer to the problem with Islam is a western crusade against the Islamic world? Stupid. That just polarizes the situation and entrenches the Islamic fundamentalist. The people rally around the fundamentalist when under attack from the west. Iraq was a fairly secular society by middle east standards. Our regime change will ultimately leave the country in the hands of the fundamentalists. No doubt about it. How does Ayaan think the women of Iraq will fair under Sadr? Much worse than Saddam for sure.

» RE: Iraq Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Ayaan Posted by: hms2004
Great Article Joshua
Posted by: jbur816 on Nov 12, 2007 10:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't have time to comment right now other than to say that this article needed to be written and I am glad that you did it. (This chick has bugged me from day one.)

Disgusting rhetoric by Joshua Holland
Posted by: pzbrawl on Nov 12, 2007 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Holland calls Ayaan Hirsi Ali a "turncoat", i.e. a deserter, apostate, renegade, quitter. Turning from the left merits such spite? It's appalling.

To mount his smear, Holland tells lies.

Holland lie #1. Dawkins & Harris calls on us to "wage a new crusade against the Muslim world.". They do not.

Holland lie #2: She is working in Washington DC because because "the Dutch government refused to pay for her body-guards in DC". False. She works there because AEI gave her a job and because she needed to get out of Holland. Indeed the Dutch government paid for protection of her in Washington for a considerable time.

Holland lie #3: Hirsi Ali's views "confuse correlation with causality." False. Islam's support for male suppression of Islamic women is causal, not correlational. Islam's refusal to recognise separate realms for government and religion is causal, not correlational. Islam's support for fatwas against its opponents (Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and many others) is causal, not correlational. Islam's support for murdering apostates is causal, not correlational.

Holland lie #4: Domestic violence is equivalent to honour killing. That is absurd.

Holland lie #5: The right's concern with honour killings is a cynical ploy to promote pro-Western chauvinism. If you are on the right, you cannot have empathic concern for the victims of religious abuse? Demagogic nonsense.

The right's "twisting of discourse" is shameful. So is Holland's. No matter how wrong the right is on so many issues, we should never stoop this low. Alter.Net ought not to publish rubbish like Holland's hit piece.

» Facts Posted by: pzbrawl
» RE: Facts Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: OK - again Posted by: oregoncharles