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Rights and Liberties

The Bush Era's Dark Legacy of Torture

By Liliana Segura, AlterNet. Posted October 27, 2007.


It is impossible to tell the difference between the dark stories emerging from Bush's "extraordinary renditions" policy and the Hollywood fiction about horrible torture.
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There's a scene in the political drama Rendition where Peter Sarsgaard -- playing a well-meaning but ultimately cowardly senior aid to a powerful senator -- unsuccessfully approaches the icy head of the CIA's counterterrorism unit (Meryl Streep) about the case of Anwar El-Ibrahimi, an Egyptian immigrant with an American wife and child who has been kidnapped by hooded CIA operatives at Chicago's O'Hare Airport on erroneous suspicions of terrorist ties and sent to be tortured in an unidentified North African country (presumably Egypt). Put off by her arrogance and frustrated by her rebuff, Sarsgaard's character says in a stern up-close whisper, "Perhaps I should have a copy of the Constitution delivered to your office."

Streep answers archly: "What are you taking issue with?" she hisses. "The disappearance of a particular man? Or a national security policy?"

To anyone opposed to the government practice of snatching people off the street, erasing any record of their whereabouts, flying them off to a black hole in some human rights-violating netherworld, and subjecting them to sadistic torture techniques in the name of a "war on terror," the answer is painfully obvious. But in our enduringly surreal political era, the question cuts to the heart of the actual debates that are currently playing out on Capitol Hill.

The day before the national premier of Rendition, amid no fanfare, a joint hearing was held by the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees on the case of Canadian citizen Maher Arar, the software engineer who was famously detained at JFK Airport in 2002 and covertly flown to his native Syria, where, for ten months, he was physically and mentally tortured -- in a U.S. operation inside a nation the administration labels "terrorist." Eventually, Arar was sent home to an apology and compensation from the Canadian -- not U.S. -- government. Despite the fact that it was the United States that sent him to face such a nightmare, four years later the Bush administration has yet to apologize to Mr. Arar -- or even acknowledge his ordeal. In fact, despite an independent Canadian investigation that last fall cleared him of anything remotely resembling criminal activity (In 2004, the same year President Bush was named "Person of the Year" by Time magazine, Arar was named Time Canada's "newsmaker of the year"), Arar remains on the United States terrorist watch list and was thus unable to travel to Washington to testify at the hearing on his own case. Instead, he delivered his words in front of a camera from Ottawa, his testimony delivered to the Congress courtesy of satellite hookup.

It was not the first time the Congress has discussed extraordinary rendition -- or Arar's case, for that matter. The case achieved notoriety years ago, and YouTube contains multiple clips of a very angry Sen. Patrick Leahy laying into former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales this past winter about the torture of Maher Arar.

"We knew damn well if he went to Canada he wouldn't be tortured," the Vermont senator boomed. "He'd be held and he'd be investigated. We also knew damn well if he went to Syria he'd be tortured. And it's beneath the dignity of this country ... to send somebody to another country to be tortured. You know and I know that this has happened a number of times the past five years by this country."

There was no such drama at this hearing; in part because there was no administration official to grill. But there were plenty of theatrics, mostly from the Republican side. Pausing only to offer their personal -- not official -- apologies to Mr. Arar for the "tragic mistake" that led to his kidnap and torture, defenders of extraordinary rendition did everything they could to spin and promote the program as an indispensable tool in the War on Terror.

Leading the charge was Dana Rohrabacher, the California Republican, who opened with a smirk and a nod at what must be his imagined collusion between Hollywood and Congress. "Let us note that this is an opportune moment to be having a hearing on the issue of rendition," he said, "because it just happens to be the subject of a movie that is about to come out. What a coincidence!" Casting extraordinary rendition as a government program like Medicare only less problematic -- "hundreds of thousands of people die because of human error in the Medicare system" -- Rohrabacher repeatedly invoked Sept. 11 to remind people that, in a time of war, "there's no such thing as perfection." "This was one year after the most brutal and bloody foreign attack on American soil in the history of our country," he said about Arar's ordeal, which took began on Sept. 26, 2002." More importantly, "rendition is used to fight our war against radicals who want to end our way of life." (Rohrabacher is uniquely poised to make such accusations, having traveled to Afghanistan in the 1980s to fight alongside the Mujahadeen against the Soviets -- on the very same side as Bin Laden.)


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See more stories tagged with: civil liberties, extraordinary rendition, rendition, maher arar

Liliana Segura is a freelance writer living in New York.

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WAKE UP America! You're Nazis!
Posted by: xbj on Oct 27, 2007 2:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the Stars and Stripes are the new Swastika, more reviled than the original.

Same tactics; different targets; different asshole at the top.

Nazis is nazis is nazis. And they said it could never happen here.

Ha.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

I Can't Wait
Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 27, 2007 2:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dick Cheney is going to die any day now. You can rest assured that the dirty old motherfucker is going to keel over from the massive heart attack that we've all been waiting for for years now. He will not live to see his day of justice. George W. Bush, on the other hand, will.

The happiest day of my life will be the day Bush is held accountable for his crimes against the human race. The fact that this sort of thing has been going on all these years with nary a peep out of a truvialized American electorate, too obsessed with their latest electronic toys to even notice or care is proof positive that we are witnessiong the fall of American civilization. But then again, I have to confess it will also be somewhat of a joy to watch the American people wallow in the misery of their own stupid, indifferent creation. Any culture that would make a media star out of someone like Bill O'Riley deserves everything that happens to it.

When Bush is finally tried (Yes, it will happen. He is going to die in federal prison - that belief keeps me going), he will not be able to make the excuse that he didn't know what was being done in his name - the same ruse that a lot of the top Nazi brass tried sixty years ago.. The NBC interview where he stated that rendition was legal will be used as exhibit A.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: dennidus1680
» But, dennisius.... Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: But, dennisius.... Posted by: ankhet
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: rambleman
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: jguenther
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Successful society? Posted by: fearn
» RE: Successful society? Posted by: Intellect
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: rocketman
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: pepsiholic
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: particle
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: Intellect
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: Urgelt
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: Intellect
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: rinthy
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: rocketman
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: braxxian1
» RE: I Can't Wait Posted by: urthsong
Corporate fascism & imperialism, historical outcome of corrupted middle layers by oligarchy
Posted by: Perfectclue on Oct 27, 2007 2:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is striking, about all these revelations, is that we have had a "coalition of the willing", Western class elites, all participating, complicit war criminals, not only in all four branches of the U.S., the executive, judicial, Congress-legislature, Corporate press, and many so called liberal, social democratic European nations, appeasing, capitulating, betraying, their vaunted democracies, for torture, kidnapping, rendition, denial of trials, charges.

This wholese "banality of evil", by all class societies, deformed middle class elites, with their class ideology, and through their class hierarchies, justified, or kept these crimes secret, by filtering out democracy, the truth, by being servile class thugs, conservatives, or servile class whores, appeasing class liberals, for the oligarchy of Late capitalism, and its deformed civil society, the new modern form defeated in Nazi Germany, and Mussolini's corporate state, is now the norm under global class tyranny.

Hannah Arendt described this class rot, the deformed professional classes, failed political class as the underlying prop to all class dictatorships. The ancient Greeks also described this class rot on civil society thousands of years ago, through class terminology, class forms, and who invented the terminology of oligarchy, plutocracy, and described its external outcome through class Empires. We must begin to understand that this generic evil, generic class corruption belongs to all class mechanisms, including the degenerat corporate fascism under Capitalism, since it began under class patriarchy, once class forces became dominant on the global level.

This dominant corruption of class forces, has always existed as combined layers of old class regimes, with new social modern exploiting class forms, and helps explain why the democratic revolutions failed on the national level, whether it was the Western deformed class Republics, under Napoleon, or the socialist or nationalist revolutions under Stalinism, both of whom were enablers of their own class corruption, either within by class forces, or externally by accomodating to class forces, by failing to take into account the need for overcoming class forces on the international level with social levels. These failures have produced this historical failure.

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The Bush Era's Dark Legacy of Torture
Posted by: flymulla on Oct 27, 2007 3:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Bush Era's Dark Legacy of Torture
This is ridiculous. Colin Powel is right. Tony Blare is right. Bush is right. There are WMD. We have not done enough homework. Let us go to Iran. May be these are there. Right get the horse ready and we tell Putin is no good a politician. What wait for dialogue? No. We do not have time. The oil is breaking the ceiling. We need oil. I will not sign the Kyoto Protocol no matter what Al Gore say what where. The dollars sliding? I have no clue, I am trying to settle the Katrina and now the Fire enraged victims. Boy I am truly in shit this time. No president has ever seen so many lies as I have told.
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa

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Living in the empire
Posted by: peacelf on Oct 27, 2007 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For those of us who are conscious and conscientious enough, this idea of torture is sickeningly repulsive, nearly as much as the illegal war in Iraq. This is the stuff of brutal regimes, and this is our america.

How did we get here? How did the american people become so resigned, complacent and sheltered from reality? These are rhetorical questions that we all have explanations for, but the solution is going to require an about-face of political change.

Hillary, Edwards, Obama are not a part of the plan for that change. They are part of the problem, because they don't offer any real alternative to Bush. They are empire-lite!

And, the "fringe" candidates, like Dennis Kucinich and the Green Party candidate (whoever that will be) are unelectable because the progressives and liberals are afraid to vote their consciences. Yet, it is going to take the leadership of a Dennis Kucinich, a candidate with the voting record and the history of putting truth to power, a candidate who has no ties to corporate interests, to win real change for america.

Until then, torture, illegal war, death and destruction will be our heritage, but like the Good Germans, we can just say, "We didn't know..."

peace

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» Well put, peacelf! Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Living in the empire Posted by: packofwolves
» RE: Living in the empire Posted by: rocketman
Now you know how Palestinians are treated
Posted by: arshi on Oct 27, 2007 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The NAZIraelis have been doing this to Palestinians for mor ethan three decades. Now, good people of america you too are like the Israelis.

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» RE: Are you kidding? Posted by: fearn
» RE: Are you kidding? Posted by: allevin
War Criminals
Posted by: packofwolves on Oct 27, 2007 5:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush and all his cronies, including a variety of Republicans, Gonzales and Rice, will one day be labeled war criminals and perhaps there will be a group of persevering war criminal hunters who will hunt them down and try them for what they are. Bush/Cheney and their followers are the terrorists. There is no justificiation for the violence Bush and his cronies bring about to others, many of whom are innocent. IMPEACH BUSH AND HIS ARMY FOR THE SAKE OF OUR COUNTRY AND OUR CONSTITUTION. What the Bush/Cheney Administration has done to the reputation and security of this country is criminal. They are as corrupt and as evil as it gets.

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» RE: War Criminals Posted by: pepsiholic
» RE: War Criminals Posted by: fearn
» RE: War Criminals Posted by: allevin
Martial law?
Posted by: JCH on Oct 27, 2007 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a thought...
In order to invoke martial law and keep their grip on the White House the Bush "handler's" might try this...
Have a major security issue, nuke, dirty bomb whatever on US soil. Somehow Bush dies or disappears. Cheney is now President in a martial law dictatorship. And you can bet your last worthless dollar that they won't be letting go until they are forced to.
Go Ron Paul.

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» RE: Martial law? Posted by: pepsiholic
» RE: Martial law? Posted by: doomsayer
U.S. interrogation techniques are NOT torture
Posted by: DrColes on Oct 27, 2007 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
U.S. interrogation techniques are NOT torture, period. Those who are saying differently are incompetent or asserting propaganda for political benefit at the cost of American citizens. No, matter your political party affiliation, and setting aside your thoughts on issues. We all need to remember what it is to be an American Citizen. We need to make sure our elected representatives obey their Oath of Office and keep their Oath of Allegiance. See http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl Know whom you are voting for.

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Making it easier to understand
Posted by: wvperegrine on Oct 27, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms. Segura's article is excellent, yet I think we've allowed Congress to skirt the issue of torture by discussing America's interrogation methods and "extraordinary rendition" as purely hypothetical matters.

I've offered one possible solution to that in a very brief essay here:
http://peregrineproject.com/balderdash/dash102707.html

It's simply this: For only one hour, before the fully assembled Congress, place me on a waterboard and subject me to the same you'd normally do to a suspected terrorist, and watch without turning away.

We've asked children to enlist and die "for our freedom" and I think this is the least I can do for my country now, although I assure you the prospect frightens me more than a little. If you don't exercise your conscience, you may not have one. I think Congress needs this exercise now, before confirming Mr. Mukasey.

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CIA, White House: Den of American Traitors
Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 27, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In China and Russia the constitutions guarantee freedom of speech and religion. However, in actual practice, it has been quite a different story. Now, the USA constitution guarantees freedom of speech and has prohibitions against torture (cruel and unusual punishment). It also has requirements for search warrants and due process, etc. American officials take an oath of allegiance "to the Constitution of the United States," in taking office. What we are seeing now, however, is that some American officials have betrayed that oath. They have betrayed the democratic principles that the USA was founded on. America's forefathers, Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, would turnover in their graves.

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CIA, White House: Den of American Traitors
Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 27, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In China and Russia the constitutions guarantee freedom of speech and religion. However, in actual practice, it has been quite a different story. Now, the USA constitution guarantees freedom of speech and has prohibitions against torture (cruel and unusual punishment). It also has requirements for search warrants and due process, etc. American officials take an oath of allegiance "to the Constitution of the United States," in taking office. What we are seeing now, however, is that some American officials have betrayed that oath. They have betrayed the democratic principles that the USA was founded on. America's forefathers, Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, would turnover in their graves.

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Go for it!!!
Posted by: Knowmad on Oct 27, 2007 7:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Canadian, the Arar case hits home, but is likely no worse than the thousands of other illegal acts of the cheney/bush administration’s very own terrorism program. Yes, terrorism....what else can you call kidnapping, forced removal to a toady regime you’ve bribed to take part, and subsequent torture. They like to dress it up as “extraordinary rendition”...nonsense! It is no more than primitive, immoral acts by insecure, short-sighted and power-mad children. And like so many things these ‘people’ actually seem proud of, it is indefensible and disgusting, regardless what the lovely Rohrabachers et al among you say. And as for you deluded trolls who are going to attempt to poison this post, here's my latest advice to such as you:
Wake up or shut up!

Though I’m not there, myself and others are going to the US Embassy today (I’m in Ottawa), and let anyone there I can talk to know just how we feel about cheney and the rest of your sick, deluded administration. I just wish this were the only thing these decrepit fools were doing wrong.

Why don’t all you true, concerned Americans who post and read here let the rest of us know what you’re doing or planning on this so-important day of country-wide protest. Even if it’s only phone calls, it’s still taking part. If you’re not near one of the cities where large scale protests are, you can always go to the local MSM outlet and raise a fuss - they’re such suckers for anything provocative that might attract gawkers, that they might even put you on before their deluded rightie censors can react.

Good luck...

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» RE: Go for it!!! Posted by: Intellect
Conspiracy Anyone?
Posted by: The Butcher on Oct 27, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From Today's "The Guardian"

Britain produces 4% of its Electricity from North Sea Oil.
It is their Autumn.
US imports 67% of its Oil. Buying it on Credit.Mexico ( dwindling), Venezuela( not too friendly)
China's Bonds are now worth over $ 1 trillion.
The $US cannot go down fast enough even with the printing machine working 24/7
48 million amaricans, our brothers cannot access minimal health care.17% of the polulation living in Poverty. Highest per Capita jailed . Highest number of Murders.....
minimum wages in US are amongst lowest in OECD countries.
The US Gini index compares favourably with Guatemala, Honduras and further afields Zimbabwe. The US has a third rate 3rd world economy.Thank you Reagan!
Ask Gates and Soros. They are aghast no doubt.
Ask Joshua Holland to report on the state of the economy. Yes I am a conspiracy theorist.
German sources report today that Oil Peak was reached in 2006.
Now we do not fault Germans on Research!
Der Spiegel, not a Mickey Mouse Mag also claims that Herr Bush is poised for a strike via Israel against Iran.
They're the ones who sent America to the Moon! I mean Germans and Jewish Germans.
In all of this what is surprising is how weak American Democracy is.
Too busy shopping?
All the space has been sold out. So there is no more space to argue except on the Net.
But the net is still weak. Who reads Alternet except converts?
In the past I have sent many insulting mails to Alternet and you readers. Anger, Frustration, Spite towards America.
I apologize.
Look for a place where it is going to rain.
Otherwise, pray to a God who does not exist but it will help when the fan hits the shit.
It does not take a conspiracy theorist to know this is pretty close to the end.
Wow. We're lucky.
What a story we will not be able to tell our children!

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» RE: Conspiracy Anyone? Posted by: Intellect
RIGHTWING MILITARY JUNTA COMING
Posted by: nihillo77 on Oct 27, 2007 9:36 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do you think orgs like Blackwater and the School for the Americas even EXIST? They are both paramilitary training regimes with extreme rightwing agendas. Wake up, liberals. The thugs with the guns always win. Somebody tell me otherwise. How can the average joe stand up to an extremely violent rightwing paramilitary if they are called in to say, "monitor" an election?

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» RE: wake up liberals? Posted by: pammers
Rendition works and has saved thousands and thousands of lives
Posted by: Bobsays on Oct 27, 2007 9:43 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And rendition is a Clinton (thus liberal) policy. Bush just ramped it up. What's wrong with taking firm measures to prevent vicious acts of terrorism? All countries do it in one form or another, they just give it different names.

I have yet to hear a sensible alternative approach considering the threat level. I am all ears!

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» RE: More glib rationalizations Posted by: particle
» What threat level? Posted by: lukitas
» Stop making excuses! Posted by: 4sense
» A sensible alternative... Posted by: 4sense
Rohrabacher is a pig
Posted by: john2007 on Oct 27, 2007 9:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Senate hearing on Mr. Arar was an eye-opener in many ways. Patrick Leahy will surely go down in history as one of our finest public servants and greatest patriots. God bless him.

Rep. Rohrabacher, on the other hand, came across as the repulsive right-wing pig that he is. He was the only Republican on the committee that didn't apologize to Mr. Arar for what our government did to him. He tried in his typical churlish fashion to suggest it was a simple mistake and nothing to get worked up about. What a worthless dick!

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We should thank Bush for showing us reality
Posted by: dayahka on Oct 27, 2007 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Vietnam war shattered the myth of US invincibility. The Bush administration (aided and abetted by numerous other administrations) has shattered the myth of American moral, political and theological superiority. Americans need to wake up and smell the facts: We are just as stupid, just as brutal, just as repugnant as any of the other "terrible" nations (or administrations or peoples) in history. We are just as bad, if not worse, than the Idi Amins, the Francois Duvaliers, the Adolph Hitlers of the world. We torture, we murder, we steal from the poor to give to the rich (Greenspan and Bernanke), we plunder and destroy other peoples for their resources (Iraq being the latest).

The problem we face right now, however, is not the immorality of renditions, or the scams of climate change, or the Iraqi genocide, but the fact that the fate of humanity is in the hands of two literal madmen in the White House who may unleash atomic weapons against one nation, without provocation, thus perhaps causing untold billions of deaths--and the obese Americans yawn and continue stuffing their faces with useless food, waiting for the next episode of Brit or Paris making fools of themselves.

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Read McCoy's "A Question of Torture"
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 27, 2007 11:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The claim by Cofer Black that there was pre 911 and post 911 is nonsense. The torture techniques applied in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and Kabul, as well as in the CIA's global network of black site prisons, are the products of a long-running psychological torture program initiated over 50 years ago:

". . .they show CIA torture methods that have metastasized like an undetected cancer inside the U.S. intelligence community over the past half century. If we look closely at these grainy images, we can see the genealogy of CIA torture techniques from their origins in 1950 to their present-day perfection. Indeed, the photographs from Iraq illustrate standard interrogation practices inside the global gulag of secret CIA prisons that have operated, on executive authority, since the start of the war on terror."

This is not some "the guys knows where the bomb is and it's set to explode in 24 hours, so we have to torture him to get the info." Rather, this is a standardized practice of breaking down a person through psychological torture:

". . . a search for the roots of Abu Ghraib in the development and propagation of a distinctive American form of torture will, in some way, implicate almost all of our society - the brilliant scholars who did the psychological research, the distinguished professors who advocated its use, the great universities that hosted them, the august legislators who voted funds, and the good Americans who acquiesced, by their silence . . ."

This is precisely why the American Psychological Association didn't want to discuss the issue or to ban their members from engaging in torture - they've been involved with this for over 50 years.

The so-called "scientific advances" were based on two methods - sensory deprivation and self-inflicted pain. This is the kind of 'social science' research funded by the CIA through front groups and universities in the 50s and 60s and probably beyond. (They also discovered that just about anyone could be induced to commit torture under certain conditons - recall the famous Stanford experiment?)

As McCoy says: "Although seemingly less brutal than physical methods, no-touch torture leaves deep psychological scars on both victims and interrogators. One British journalist who observed this method's use in Northern Ireland called sensory deprivation "the worst form of torture" because it "provokes more anxiety among the interrogatees than more traditional tortures, leaves no visible scars and, therefore, is harder to prove, and produces longer lasting effects." Victims often need extensive treatment to recover from injury far more crippling than mere physical pain. Perpetrators can suffer a dangerous expansion of ego, leading to escalating cruelty and lasting emotional disorders. Though any ordinary man or woman can be trained to torture, every gulag has a few masters who take to the task with sadistic flair - abhorred by their victims and valued by their superiors. Applies under the pressure of actual field operations after 1963, psychological methods soon gave way to unimaginable cruelties, physical and sexual, by individual perpetrators whose improvisations, plumbing the human capacity for brutality, are often horrifying."

The hooded Iraqi, standing on a box with wires attached, or the naked Iraqis covered in feces, or the use of dogs to attack prisoners, or the technique of playing a tape of a woman being raped and telling the subject it is his wife - are all things that should not be forgotten.

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Nothing New here!!!!
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Oct 27, 2007 11:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush's torture legacy!?!?? How about America's Torture Legacy. Get a Time Life book on vietnam. I believe the edition is called 'America takes Over'. In it you will see an american serviceman doing a 'field water torture' on good ol' Charlie. When we began to take over America,we would get Indians to 'convert' to christianity and then burn them alive.
Some message, 'Accept jesus and Burn!'. I think Master Jesus would call such practices 'Anti-Christ'. Right along with
guns,cannons,and cruise missles. We brought torture with us from the 'Old Country'. We brought torture based christianity along with us too. Bush is a 'Born Again' christian,so I guess he gets a whole bunch of new born again torture tools.
The worst being,his ugly mug on T.V. sounding off about how right and good he is. That's the most terrorizing,torturous
inhuman kind of visage anyone could imagine.
END US SPONSORED GLOBAL TERRORISM
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez '08

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» RE: Nothing New here!!!! Posted by: Intellect
thekidde
Posted by: thekidde on Oct 27, 2007 2:22 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BushCo should be rendered in its entirety. NOW.

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The Purpose of Torture
Posted by: Vernon Huffman on Oct 27, 2007 4:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can't get reliable information out of somebody by torturing him. He'll say whatever he thinks you want to hear, but that may not be truth (especially if truth has already failed, as in "Please don't hurt me. I'm innocent") Extracting truth is of no interest of bullies. Truth is whatever they tell you it is.

The reason they torture is to terrify everybody else out of resisting their control. Please don't let it work on you. Stand with us, peacefully, in resistance.

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» RE: The USA does not torture anyone ( ! ) Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Shocking
Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 27, 2007 4:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Despite the fact that it was the United States that sent him to face such a nightmare, four years later the Bush administration has yet to apologize to Mr. Arar -- or even acknowledge his ordeal."

What kind of people tolerates a brutal savage like Bush as a leader? I don't mean that we can stop him, but as a nation, we should be repudiating him vociferously, and we do not. Reporters still won't even call Bush a liar, as if the word is improper even if accurate, and he is so much more that is worse than that.

America's relative non-reaction to something as egregious as the Bush administration is actually more shocking and unexpected than the outrageous neocons themselves.

And repudiating him doesn't mean merely not approving of him for no specified reason. It means specifically repudiating torture and wars of aggression, for starters, because they are wrong, illegal and spiritually offensive - not just because they aren't effective. Until America can respond like that, it doesn't pass the decency test.

I'll tell you something else shocking about the American people. They allowed both a bloodless coup of their government and the unarmed theft of their multiquadrillion-dollar commonwealth to occur under their noses without a shot being fired or a fuss being raised. America was the opposite of robust. It blew over with just a wisp of breath. Remarkably, the victims couldn't give their freedoms, heritage and property away fast enough. And they still don't know that they were robbed - years ago.

Who knew how shallow Americans ran? Obtuse, naïve, amoral, unsophisticated, foolish, and easily frightened. Exactly like children in adult bodies. Exactly.

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» Retarded children Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Shocking Posted by: Intellect
» Disney-Mac News Posted by: Cathyc
kidnapping and torture
Posted by: raywigton on Oct 27, 2007 6:17 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Was this a movie critique or was it an article about rendition? Does anybody want to address the article? Rendition was illegal when Clinton did it and it's illegal now. There is no before 911 and after 911. The persons responsible for that attack are all dead. If Bin Laden is a conspirator then where is he now? What did the Taliban have to do with the attack? I'm not complaining about invading Afghanistan, but we did so because they were harboring an international criminal. Our invasion didn't achieve it's objective of catching Bin Laden. Perhaps somebody whose failed oil business was financed by the Bin Laden family doesn't really want to catch him. I wonder how much trash Osama has on the U. S.? What stories could he tell? I know a Bin Laden story from my military days that I wish I could tell you. The article only mentions a few cases of rendition but we should be aware that there are hundreds and perhaps thousands. We only hear about the ones who have been freed and are now talking. Those who are still being held but for whom no charges have ever been filed are still unable to tell their story. The American traitor who was captured while fighting with the Taliban was also tortured by our government. I don't feel sorry for him because I would have tried him for treason and sentenced him to death in Afghanistan. His carcass would never have returned to American soil. But I never would have tortured him because torture only creates false confessions, which anger someone and then lead to more torture. It creates more false intelligence and wastes time could be spent on useful intelligence.

My opinion is that if the Italian government wants to extradite Americans who were responsible for the rendition that took place in their country then we should comply under international law and our extradition treaties. If those Americans are convicted in an Italian court, let them serve their sentences in the Italian prison system. We elected a democratic congress because the American people were pissed about the direction that this country is headed. I stupidly assumed that the congress would hold hearings to investigate the crimes against humanity - the lies that led to the invasion of Iraq - the extradition of innocent people - the foreign prisons that hold CIA prisoners - etc. But what have Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the democrats done? Not a damn thing. We still have people like congressman Dana Rohrabacher, the California Republican, pretending like this is all ok. He is joined on this web site by a troll and supported by Fox Lies and a whole host of demented media bastards who are telling the American people that this is all ok. Well it’s not ok - it’s a crime.

A whole section of comments deal with the distribution of wealth in the world - first we are about 10 percent of the worlds population and second we consume about half of the worlds resources. If a factory in China used energy to produce junk for the American (Wal-Mart) market, then in my opinion America is using the resource. China only gets the pollution. Wealth will never be distributed equally but a Christian society or at least one that claims to be Christian, could certainly give it a better effort. Charity is next to godliness. Only about 8 percent of regular church goers pay anything similar to a tithe.

You and I need to stop allowing this bush regime to set the terms: Clear Skies for allowing pollution, Healthy Forests for clear cutting wilderness areas, rendition for kidnapping and torture. The list is long, - but I’m asking you as intelligent people to frame your words in the terms that they are, not the ones that the regime uses. By doing so, we can change the way that people think.

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what do they want to tell us?
Posted by: lukitas on Oct 27, 2007 6:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the most interesting aspects of the torture story is how extraordinarily brazen they have been about it. As if the message was meant to get through: we do torture in secret, by proxy, underhand, and then we *say* we don't do torture, write a few memo's to prove that what we do isn't torture, and remember this: 'You better be careful, because we do torture, and you can't even tell on us, because what we will do to you *isn't* torture. Submit, obey, keep your f*cking mouth shut, or we will *not* torture you.

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Inspiring ideas here
Posted by: Earthian on Oct 28, 2007 7:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm as inspired by the comments as I am by the article. Congressional complicity in torture and other crimes is evident in the lack of any teeth accompanying their meek objections—teeth like impeachment, funding cuts, war crimes trials via a grand jury, etc. Progressives have lots of work to do politically and with our activism to implement the inspiring ethic so clearly articulated by Liliana Segura and so many of the comments above.

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» RE: Inspiring ideas here Posted by: Earthian
"Torture" Talked Up as PR to Spin Fake Effectiveness in the War on Terrorism
Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 28, 2007 7:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When 95% of the cargo coming into the USA is not inspected (too expensive), congressional legislation goes down which calls for enhanced security of chemical and nuclear plants (after industry lobbying), and the US government cannot even formulate what will be a uniform form of personal identification (REAL ID Act), what have we left? We have a President trying to emulate the TV show "24" and Jack Bower, and we are to believe this is an effective way to fight terrorism? It's all smoke and mirrors my friends, smoke and mirrors for the consumption of the general public. As for "torture," we have a President who seems not afraid to trumpet it's use, as though, once again, this shows he is "being effective" in the fight on terrorism. Want to show you are really serious about terrorism. Let's stop deporting outspoken Muslim clerics as though that will do anything, and start inspecting 100% of foreign cargo coming into the USA. Otherwise, this entire "terrorism" and torture thing is just a way to make a gullible public believe something is really being done.

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fly the friendly skies of rendition
Posted by: particle61 on Oct 28, 2007 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-diapers and sedatives provided free of charge
redstateupdate has covered US military and CIA kidnappings since 2005 with humor and precience, see stories-

UK Leased Tropical Island Torture Chamber to American Interrogators-
http://www.redstateupdate.net/
Renditions Reap Resentment, Retrenchment-
issue 104
US Forms International Coalition to Break International Law-
issue 55
Somalian Conflict Sees Intelligence Agencies in Familiar Renditions-
issue 96
and many more in the 'spread of the red' archive, and a new gwbush comic every week-
http://www.redstateupdate.net/verbatim/verbatim.html

www.redstateupdate.net
funny, frightening, free
and it's all true

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LAST CHANCE
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 28, 2007 10:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to stop the torture, arrest Bush and Cheney and remove them from office. Otherwise, flee the country, if you can.

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United States of Arrogance
Posted by: greatawakening on Oct 28, 2007 11:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love my country and want God to "bless America" but feel America should first bless God by not misusing His name and pursuing a foreign policy of bloodshed merely to procure natural resources and keep the dollar afloat.

Historically America demonized the black man, than the communists, and now Muslims.

Paul F. Davis - Pulitzer Prize nominated author of United States of Arrogance and Poems That Propel The Planet

www.PaulFDavis.com

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» RE: United States of Arrogance Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Dumb and Dumber
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive on Oct 28, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has everybody had enough? After six years, nine months and three weeks of George W. Bush's and Darth Chaney's insane mismanagement of the federal government, do you feel the sense of exhaustion that only a person who has been paying close attention all these years could possibly feel? Do you feel (as I do) that the United States cannot possibly continue to endure the days left until January 20, 2009 when this tidal wave of foul smelling corruption is finally out of power? Are you, perchance, aghast contemplating the fact that Bill Clinton was impeached for lying about a tryst with a half-witted intern while the disgusting war criminal now sitting in the oval office is not even considered a candidate for impeachment?

Are you appalled at the waste in lives and treasure that is being expended in the bloody belly of Iraq and Afganistan, compounded day after day? Are you depressed and saddened by the fact that a full one fourth of the American people are so wretchedly out-of-touch with what is happening that they actually believe that the moron they so foolishly sent to the White House seven years ago is doing a good job? Aren't you sickened and tired of all this?

Good God: Surely you have had enough!! Quite frankly, I'm numb! I cannot see his cretin face without an overpowering urge to puke green, chunky, smelly stuff.

We are the laughingstock of Planet Earth!

When Poppy Bush's buddies on the Supreme Court installed little Georgie in December of 2000 ("Hey Pop! Can I borrow the keys to the country"?), were you able to foresee any of this? You would have, had you been paying just modest attention. This country just effectively committed suicide when Bush entered office. How could so huge a percentage of the electorate miss it? Didn't they listen to the guy mumble-speak? Couldn't they see the lack of a brain connection between his bonehead and his mouth ? Didn't they see the arrogance? The incompetence? The comical inability to put two coherent sentences together? What the hell is wrong with the American people? We shouldn't be surprised to find out that we are the laughingstock of planet Earth.

Death or jail-time to these cretins cannot come too soon!

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» bio-robots en masse Posted by: Constitutionalist75