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Rights and Liberties

Southern Baptists Seek Laws Making 'Will Of Christ' Supreme

Church and State. Posted October 13, 2007.


Religious right leader Richard Land is working to turn America's 16 million Southern Baptists into a disciplined political machine.
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The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), the nation's largest Protestant denomination whose leadership is a bulwark of far-right fundamentalism, is ratcheting up its political operations.

The Christian Index, Georgia's state Baptist newspaper, recently carried an interesting and unusually frank report on the SBC's lobbying outpost in Washington, D.C., just four blocks from the Capitol.

"It is in this environment," says the newspaper, "that Southern Baptists have a significant presence through the ministry of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC). Richard Land, president of the ERLC, visits Washington often from his primary office in Nashville and is wielding an ever-increasing influence in his efforts to make the will of Christ supreme in public affairs."

Apparently the "will of Christ" just happens to dovetail with the policy goals of the far right. According to the ERLC Web site, the unit takes stands on legislation and pushes for the confirmation of Bush court appointees. The issues tackled run the usual Religious Right gamut -- opposing legal abortion, gay rights, hate-crimes laws and stem-cell research and supporting "court-stripping" legislation and other efforts to make it harder to pursue church-state separation claims in federal court.

ERLC's goal, the story notes, is to turn the 16-million-member religious group into a disciplined political machine.

"The primary point I want to stress," ERLC's Barrett Duke told The Index, "is the need to build a grassroots base of support for these issues that are important to the foundation and fabric of our nation. There are 16,000,000 Southern Baptists and we should be able to shut down the congressional switchboard all by ourselves when there is a need to voice our convictions on a certain issue."

ERLC's Land, who has been one of the most faithful cheerleaders for the Bush administration and who is now pushing former senator Fred Thompson for president, is blunt about the group's religious-political agenda.

In an essay on ERLC's Web site, he insists, "We must convince Christians to run for elected offices at every level, then encourage them to act on their faith-based convictions while they are in office. We must walk, talk, and vote our values." (Religious Right activists like Land use the word "Christian" in a narrow sense, referring to those who share their religious-political agenda.)

Land denies that Southern Baptists want a government that gets involved in religion, but his own words seem to belie that claim.

"When we preach that Gospel," he writes, "and God has blessed it and people's hearts and minds have been changed, then they have the right as citizens to come forth in the public arena and say, 'This is wrong, and we want it stopped.'"

"For example," he continued, "abortion is the murder of babies, and we want laws to change it. When we convince a majority of Americans that we are right, that's not called a theocracy, that's called the democratic process."

Land then insists that all he seeks is "a level playing field."

"Does that mean," asks Land, "that false religions have the same rights to express their opinions and their beliefs as we do? Sure. Let them come. I never saw Elijah backing away from a confrontation with the prophets of Baal. He just showed them the power of the One True God!"

Joseph L. Conn, director of communications for Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, notes that Land's example might not be the best one.

"According to the scriptures, after Elijah won the contest over whose God was the true one, he had all the false priests of Baal slain. (I Kings 18:40)," wrote Conn. "Somehow, I'm not feeling the ecumenical love."

Added Conn, "Southern Baptists, historically, were ardent supporters of church-state separation. Many still are. We will count on those dissenters to help us see that Land and company do not achieve their megalomaniacal goals."

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I like your Christ, I just don't like your Christians--Ghandi--
Posted by: vox persona on Oct 13, 2007 1:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When it comes to religion, my policy is to not criticize anybody's way, if they don't try to force it upon me in the public sphere, with laws and such. I don't care whether you pray to Vishnu, Zoroaster, Odin Jupiter, Gaia or Zeus himself. I do admit to some wariness toward Satan worshippers but whatever floats your boat, as long as no one else is hurt by it. I love having conversations with people of all faiths as well as those with no faith at all. During the 80's I went on that journey of 'what it's all about', peering into various faiths and philosophies, to see what those adherents believed and why. What I came away with was a 'gem of truth' from each avenue, which, when placed into my personal mosaic, began to form an airtight philosophy based in personal responsibility, karma, and ultimate Unity. But when I overlayed that philosophy with the teachings of Christ, the structure solidified. Funny thing is, my take on what Christ taught conflicts directly and completely with many who claim to follow the same teachings. That is why I would rather identify myself as a 'Christ Follower' rather than 'Christian', to wipe the dogma slate clean and concentrate on those archetypes. The rest of the Bible can be contradictory (is it 'eye for an eye' or 'turn the other cheek'?), and used to justify anything from slavery to polygamy to war. My caveats are:1) Jesus didn't speak English, so please lighten up on the literal interpretations , b)the words were not written down for decades, III) He spoke in parables , metaphor and allegory, so 'tis better to glean the meaning with inner sight, 4) the many translations it's been through and politically motivated assemblage doesn't lend itself to literalism, and on and on and on.
What I resent is those who co-opt Christ for political purposes, and contradict what he said, from taxes to war to the death penalty. Think about it, He was a long-haired, indigent, brown-skinned, homeless, pacifist who hung around with destitutes and prostitutes. Falwell and Robertson would have lambasted him were he to be born today, and right wingers would have lebeled him a liberal, and tried to marginalize him. I think he is misunderstood by his most ardent and militaristic followers.
Like George Carlin said, "Religion is like a pair of shoes.....Find one that fits for you, but don't make me wear your shoes.....And for God's sake don't nail soles onto the feet on the natives". Well said, George.

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Power corrupts
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 13, 2007 2:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and absolute power corrupts absolutely", so if the SBC and ERLC get the power they seek, they will impose the kind of tyranny that inspired Christians of the past to hang people for blasphemy - unless Bush launches Biblical Armageddon first.

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» RE: Power corrupts Posted by: Fiona
» RE: Power corrupts Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Imperialism corrupts Posted by: peacelf
» "my kingdom is no part of this world" Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
They've Only Just Begun
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Oct 13, 2007 4:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christian evangelicals have only just begun their internal (US) crusade. And, if you like what the Bush admin has put together you're going to absolutely fall all over yourself with what these people have planned.

We've witnessed the most unpopular President in history assemble the most moronic group of people in history to 'advise' him. And look what we've gotten as a result. When you have a group of people who love mythology over reality, lies over truth, and belief over science, the result is amoral foreign policy, the erosion of rights, the immersion into groupthink, the rejection of the fact that the world doesn't operate in a black/white vacuum, and the re-writing of what the Age of Enlightenment was all about.

So, if you assemble an even larger group of people who are DETERMINED to do the exact same thing, you will get even worse results.

Get ready America. They want to totally destroy this country and they'll stop at nothing to do it. And I mean D.E.S.T.R.O.Y. After all, look at the facts as they are right in front of you right now. Our economy is on shaky ground (The DOW is NOT an indication of the fact that the dollar is eroding as we speak. After all, when was the last time the Canadian dollar was worth the exact same amount as the US dollar?????), our goodwill around the world is next to nothing, and every political group on the planet except US fundamentalists hates GW Bush with a passion.

And US fundamentalists want MORE of the same.

Why do Christians hate America so much?

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» RE: They've Only Just Begun Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Correction Posted by: vox persona
There is no god, so why have religions?
Posted by: pocomoco on Oct 13, 2007 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a phrase "false religions" in the article. Any person, with the ability to really think, must realize that all religions are false. started by primitive, uncivilized people and still existing today. When will civilization really start?

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» RE: There is no god, so why have religions? Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: Anyone with any sense... Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Anyone with any sense... Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: Anyone with any sense... Posted by: riffraff2001
All the new breed of Christians have done for me
Posted by: Ellie1 on Oct 13, 2007 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is to make me angry, reject ALL of my Christian friends, relatives, and neighbors, stop attending a Christian church, and become politically active to defeat these assholes. Not sure that was their objective, but that works for me. And by the way, Jesus is NOT my personal lord and savior. F him and F you.

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Nope
Posted by: chomsky on Oct 13, 2007 6:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, there is no 'Will Of Christ'.
There is a "Will Of Religious Leaders/Zealots who pretend to represent the will of Christ".
Like the Bible is not the word of God; it is the word of human being(s) that claim to represent God.
So, I hereby proclaim that God as chosen me as the sole human allowed to represent him!
He then told me that he does not endorse all the atrocities written in the Bible and that human beings should be in fact kind and compassionate.
So, as the sole real representant of God, you will all obey me!

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» "Christofascists"? Great term. Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Nope Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Nope Posted by: Lauren
Christofascists
Posted by: Glennk1949 on Oct 13, 2007 6:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These American Talibanazis or as some call them Christofascists would love to see their phony Messiah Emperor BV$H II stay Prez. for life. He's been their dream Prez and its doubtful they'll see another like him any time soon. nevertheless, BV$h will leave them what they wanted most a solidly right wing SCOTUS. Its highly likely that over the course of th next 15 yrs. almost every piece of so called Progressive court precedents will be either gutted and made into meaningless shells as they just did to Brown Vs. The Board of Education or entirely tossed as I expect they'll do to Roe or worse Griswold. Then onto gutting most Labor rulings and Civil Rights precedents. These are evil fucking people and they won't rest till they've gotten everything they want. Unless, we stop them like we had to do at Gettysburg. These are the same fuckers who backed Slavery as a biblical right!

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» RE: Christofascists Posted by: diof09
» RE: Christofascists Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Christofascists Posted by: diof09
» RE: Christofascists Posted by: EJ
Will of Christ?
Posted by: HomerScarborough on Oct 13, 2007 6:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah, and what about the instruction to sell all of your goods and distribute all of your wealth to the poor? You can't pick and chose. When they start caring more about people and less about wealth and the profit line, I will pay more attention to what they say about how the country should be run.

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Medical science can help.
Posted by: reval on Oct 13, 2007 7:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Without question, the lunatics of this country are currently running the asylum. Until we get serious about treating people who espouse this kind of insane babble with anti-psychotic drugs, shock therapies and mass lobotomies we'll be fighting this madness until we ultimately find ourselves covered w/ debris from the mushroom cloud that these deranged asswipes pray for everyday.

Hitchens is spot on correct: "Religion poisons EVERYTHING."
~Rev. El Mundo
Pastor, WVCSR

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Elijah is a good example
Posted by: eric555 on Oct 13, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you read the account in 1Kings chapter 18 you will see that Elijah was successful in his attempt to bring the people back to God.

Richard Land the the Christian Right have been less then successful in their attemps to turn America to God. In fact, their actions are doing more to push people away from God.

Elijah was a man of God. Blessed by God.

Richard Land is not.

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» RE: lijah is a good example Posted by: peacelf
"Elija is a good example indeed.....
Posted by: reval on Oct 13, 2007 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....... of the psychobabble of which I speak. A lobotmy may be the most mild form of treatment, the first treatment step, the kindest treatment step we can offer these deluded idiots.

Reject ignorance, superstition and dogma. Seek knowledge. Seek enlightenment. See a return to the class homo sapien.
~Rev. El Mundo.
Pastor, WVCSR

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STRIP THEM OF THEIR NONPROFIT STATUS
Posted by: paulaH on Oct 13, 2007 7:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This needs to be heavily enforced now. If they're going to play politics, they need to pay taxes. If they're going to force their agenda down our throats we should at least get some tax money out of it. Hell, what the churches would have to pay in taxes could probably pay for Bush's illegal war.

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» +1 Posted by: hurricane hugo
They ain't RIGHT..
Posted by: Scott on Oct 13, 2007 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an ex-southern baptist, they are not what they used to be for when I was growing up in that group southern baptist were still defenders of the separation of church and state, even to the point that I was taught that IT was not right or christian for church members to be involved in politics or in very "rare" instants to hold political office; neither was the "rapture" taught as any thing but not being of the Bible, in fact in S.B. Sunday School materials IT was a "false doctrine". One can only look on today and see how far down the road of "false doctrine" this church has gone. It is truly sad and shows how great a danger our country is in, for the so-called "fundie" will lead us all into a major world war or a dictatorship!!

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» RE: They ain't RIGHT.. Posted by: babaloo
"Burrrnnnnn herrrrr!!!"
Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 13, 2007 8:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Question: If your lovely Baptist friends and neighbor's church had the power to write the law, how long before you were burned at the stake for heresy or impiety or corrupting the youth?

Christianity is incompatible with democracy (not that that's an issue in Amerika* any more) unless the democracy is secular and excludes Christian influence** on lawmaking.

*Amerika refers to the post-Constitutional, post-democratic United States, conveniently demarcated as the period since Jan 2001, when Bush and the millennium began, although 9-11-01 makes a good arbitrary date as well

**What I mean here by "Christian influence" is their influence on issues that *only* Christians care about, or that you would have to believe the Bible to respect, like no gay sex or no alcohol sales on Sunday or witch burning (give them a chance!). Making murder and theft illegal are NOT Christian values, even if the Ten Commandments also happen to proscribe them (which, incidentally, were Hebrew values long before Christianity co-opted them). They're universal values found in virtually all legal and ethical systems, and we're glad that the Christians at least give them lip service, as their de facto political leader, George Bush, marches his troops into Irag to murder Iraqis and pilfer the oil as countless popes have before him.

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» Question Posted by: WhatNow?
So Many Christians....
Posted by: Astroboy on Oct 13, 2007 8:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...so few lions.

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» RE: So Many Christians.... Posted by: donl51
Do any of these believers.....
Posted by: reval on Oct 13, 2007 8:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..... recognize the fact that, normally, if were were to find them babbling on and on about their beliefes in supernatural deities and "Holy Books" in front of a Safeway store, for example, that we would ultimately wrap them up in a padded suit and haul their asses off to the few remaining treatment centers? It's only because of their Constitutionally protected right to be insane if they want to that we don't.

Seriously, these folks need profesional-grade help! Why not be honest and just continue saying so instead of treating them as if their words contained even a shed of sanity or relevance to intelligent life.
~Rev. El Mundo WVCSR

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TRUTH
Posted by: sivermoon22 on Oct 13, 2007 8:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's the truth,

There isn't going to be a second coming, except for the Hologram they present. BUT, there will be a new second Christ, originating from Lucifer (God of Eaqrth) soon enough. within 10 years, but not later.

Yes, Jesus lived. Then, he began to say good things and they killed him. Who's they? If I told you, you would cower in fear, becuase you have been paying tithing to them for a long time.

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» RE: TRUTH Posted by: Intellect
» RE: TRUTH Posted by: Lauren
The mix is the message.
Posted by: Axiom69 on Oct 13, 2007 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All Christians try to force there beliefs upon you.
All jews are greedy
All muslims are terrorists
All blacks are in gangs
All whites are racist
All gay men are interior designers
All lesbians ride harleys
Reading some of the comments here I find it hard to beleive that most consider themselves liberal or progressive. Sterotyping an entire social group is wrong whether it be because of race, creed, color, sex, national orgin or sexual orientation. If you put down "christians" as a whole you are not an open minded pregressive or liberal and you are no less a bigot than someone that believes any or all of the ignorant sterotypes listed above.

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» RE: The mix is the message. Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: The mix is the message. Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: The mix is the message. Posted by: katz22br
» RE: The mix is the message. Posted by: tgabriel
» RE: The mix is the message. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: The mix is the message. Posted by: YogiBear
» YogiBear for Prez Posted by: vox persona
» RE: The mix is the message. Posted by: Roverton
tax exempt status
Posted by: cmcanulty on Oct 13, 2007 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why does the Sierra Club lose it's tax exempt status for being political and not these churches?

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» RE: tax exempt status Posted by: Lauren
The Prophets & The Profits
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 13, 2007 9:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was raised in this denomination and know this bunch well. They as a group do not practice what they preach and are far more concerned with the appearance of piety and propriety than the real deal. What they are interested in is power--political power and money.

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» Jesus has very little to do with it Posted by: scheherezade
TEH EVIL AND THE GREEDY...
Posted by: Roverton on Oct 13, 2007 9:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... Always use the gullible as their enforcers.

When these poor fools are no longer needed, they're discarded as well. Considered by the boss to be too stupid and dangerous to be useful anywhere else.

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Southern Baptism is to Christianity as Wahhabism is to Islam
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 13, 2007 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Autocratic and authoritarian - the perfect cover for a totalitarian state.

In Saudi Arabia, you've got the religious 'Mutaween' police to keep the populace in line. The Republicans would just love to set up their own religious police force modelled after the Saudis. See BBC March, 2002, Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

The Southern Baptists were formed largely in response to the North-South split during the U.S. Civil War and originally promoted a lot of pro-slavery viewpoints. They've tried to shed this history over the years, but that's the truth of the matter: Incorporating our "Southern Zion", 1890-1920

Thus, they initially formed as a split from the Northern Baptist anti-slavery movement:

"Abolitionist sentiment began to grow among Baptists in the North during the 1830s, leading some Northerners to withdraw from the Triennial Convention in order to form Abolitionist Baptist societies when the national boards remained neutral on the issue of slavery. By the mid-1840s, however, it became clear to Southern Baptists that the national boards were no longer neutral: when Alabama Baptists asked the Acting Board of the Triennial Convention whether a slaveholder could be appointed a missionary, the answer was negative. Baptists in Virginia responded to the Triennial Board's new policy by issuing a call for Southern Baptists to form their own convention."

Then they adopted their 'national mission' ideology - which, like other fundamentalist authoritarian religious movements in history, was really all about gaining political power:

"This fervent campaign borrowed from the rhetoric of war to explain its role in the region and throughout the world. Home Mission Board Secretary Tichenor had served as a chaplain and sharpshooter during the Civil War, and most of the other Convention leaders, coming of age a decade later, would probably have grown up hearing stories of Confederate heroism and the "Lost Cause." Now soldiers of Christ, they spoke the language of war to describe their mission work. "Reclaim[ing] its lost territory" within the South would lead to the Convention's "conquest of the world" for Christ. . . . Southern Baptist leaders' deeply held belief that they were the instruments of Christ is inextricable from their struggle for power within the South and, in their eyes, throughout the world."

Nothing has changed. The mandate remains the same. This is why the Republicans love them so much - they are the perfect tool for autocratic rule, which is the real Republican Agenda.

I think that the Bush family really likes the Saudi autocratic rule model, and would love to see something similar here in the United States - with themselves as the Royal Princes, of course.

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You had to know this was coming.
Posted by: Ale99 on Oct 13, 2007 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sharia law for Christians. Primitive, fundamentalist law codes: they're not just for radical Muslims anymore. Let the stonings, burnings and decapitations commence.

A more appropriate westernized version would be the High School Massacre to cleanse the infidels, er, non-believers.

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The New Reformation
Posted by: BrianOfNairobi on Oct 13, 2007 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the United States Protestantism, I believe, is undergoing a new Reformation, and like the old European Reformation there is a lust for power pushing it. Like Islam the Catholic Church prohibited usury and that's why the 16th century European bankers and traders, especially from Venice which was a great trading centre at the time, helped to finance the Reformation. This, in turn, led to the rise of embryonic capitalism fed by the individualism which grew out of the Reformation. Individualism and usury were the main ingredients of the old Reformation.

The Christain fundamentalist lobby is of course allied to the Israel lobby and both these lobbies are heavily involved in the military-industrial complex and within the corridors of power in the US. The convergence of these lobbies is a great danger for the whole world. When a people take upon themselves the mantle of being "chosen" by God, then the rest of us must heed and prepare to defend ourselves. They who feel "chosen" can do no wrong in their own eyes, in fact it is "God's Will."

The "Christian" fundamentalists are the antithesis of everything Jesus Christ stood for and gave His life for. Land and Hagee support the bombing of Iran... what manner of Christian would support the use of WMDs? They lust for power in order to unleash Armageddon upon the world, especially against the great "other"... which of course is Islam. Armageddon, they believe, will usher in the return of Jesus. To them all this death and destruction is "God's Will".

These people must be stopped in their tracks. They are totally insane and the "Christ" they claim to worship can only be that other guy... and he does not take any prisoners.

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» RE: The New Reformation Posted by: reval
Kinda like the taliban and allah
Posted by: drblack on Oct 13, 2007 10:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is actually as Un-American as you can get.
We have a Constitution and by design it never mentions christ or any specific religion.
If you read the writings of our Founders and other great American figures like Lincoln they had a VERY low opinion of anyone who thought this way and for superstition that is called religion.
Religion is superstition that you believe...that is the difference between the two.
Theistic religions are out of step with the modern world.
If people have to have them they should keep their spirituality to themselves.

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» Talibama Posted by: hurricane hugo
I'll believe that what they want is the "Will of Christ..."
Posted by: QuestionAuthority on Oct 13, 2007 11:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll believe that what they want is the "Will of Christ" when Christ comes down here and tells me so Himself to my face. The same goes for any alleged "God's" will, whether it's Allah or any other alleged deity.

As Thomas Paine wrote in "The Age of Reason," something is a revelation only to those it was directly revealed to by a deity. After that, it's mere hearsay. The Bible is hearsay evidence!

We don't even allow hearsay evidence in court, but we're supposed to base our lives on it?! Give me a break! That won't even work in traffic court or in front of Judge Judy!

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Jesus said:
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Oct 13, 2007 3:57 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Render onto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's..!"

Simple as that..


The first pronouncement of the Separation of Church and state..was by Jesus..

All these Fundamentalists who go against this, are heretics and blasphemers...

Hypocrites..

Simple as that..

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On making the will of Christ the law of the land
Posted by: drjay1941 on Oct 13, 2007 4:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It never fails to fascinate me to speculate that those who are insecure about their version of the truth seem inevitably to try to enshrine it in law of some sort. The current SBC leadership, if Mr. Land is such, must be incredibly fearful that if their interpretation doesn't become law (and this is exactly what "the will of Christ" means: it is always, always someone's interpretation and to make it a law would be to authorize someone or other to adjudicate interpretations). It's like those who argue that prayers should be returned to school--meaning that the religious organizations themselves can't really do the job of teaching and practicing religious lives without outside support. If one's faith rests on such foundations (or lacks thereof) what kind of faith is it? Whose interpretation of the will of Christ will be authoritative? Oddly, I suspect that it would have to be the SBC's in this instance. As a pastor in one of the denominations that does not require me to take my head off when I enter church, I sincerely trust that this scarcely veiled grasp for power will be turned down on its de-merits!

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The only problem with Baptists...
Posted by: Suz on Oct 13, 2007 7:10 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is that they don't hold them under long enough.

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I was not aware..
Posted by: cmaukonen on Oct 13, 2007 7:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that there were so many psychotic people south of the Mason Dixon line. We should really do something so these people can get the psychiatric help they so obviously require.

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» RE: I was not aware.. Posted by: Intellect
"c"hristians have lost Christ
Posted by: foolme1ns on Oct 14, 2007 4:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If they would open their bibles to the Gospel of Christ instead of hitting people on the head with their closed bibles, they would know that these "c"hristian political movements are the antithesis of WWJD.

Christ NEVER insisted that the world follow him or his beliefs. Christ NEVER got involved in the politics of his day, even though many tried to get him to. Christ NEVER tried to force his faith or his "values" on anyone.

I don't know who these people think they are worshiping, but they are a blasphemy to the very name of Christ. They worship golden idols (money) over everything else, because they know that in this world, money is more powerful than Christ. They worship false Gods (George W Bush et al) and try to place on men the mantle of Christ, which does not fit at all. They think of Christ as helpless without THEM!!!! How ironic is that? They believe in the "end times" but believe that God is completely impotent to bring the end times about without THEIR help.

These false "c"hristians have not only lost Christ, but they have completely buried him in their arrogance and their self importance. He is nowhere to be found in their self aggrandizing temples, and He certainly isn't to be found on K-street. If you would find Christ, you must look where the wealthy and the powerful religious leaders aren't. He is in New Orleans amongst the poor and the depressed. He is in the abortion clinics with the women who cannot afford to have another child. He is with the drug addicts, the thieves, the prostitutes. He is with the poor and the humble, the wretched and the outcasts. He is with the mentally ill who wander the streets, because they have no where else to go. He is with those that he has always been with. The downtrodden, the unwashed, the hungry, and the needy.

You will not find Christ at the Southern Baptist Convention, or Dr. Dobson's church or in the hundreds of churches where people worship with their hands in the air and their eyes closed. Those are places full of greed, power lust, self indulgent, self important false prophets.

When they stand at the gate to enter in, the bridegroom will look at them bewildered and say "I never knew you".

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I see another Religious abuse scandal coming
Posted by: lwms on Oct 14, 2007 5:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see another religious abuse scandal coming- it isn't sexual, but its activity parallels in harmfulness

It was difficult enough when the Catholic sexual abuse scandal came out. People who were supposed to be the most trusted took sexual advantage of children. To made matters worse parishioners knowingly covered it up.

The consequences of the sexual abuse were severe. First there was the initial suffering the children endured. Then there was the economic hardship imposed on the Church. Finally there was the suffering the children and others endured after the initial abuse. Many were shunned for speaking out. Others turned to drinking, drugs, sexual promiscuity, and even suicide.

In the Catholic Church, Protecting God's Children, a program to educate about the signs of abuse was made a requirement for anyone working around children. The program was designed to help educate about sexual abuse and what signs to look for in the victim and the abuser. That should have been the end of things, but another form of abuse and cover up crept actively into Christianity. It was psychological abuse.

Psychological abuse might sound vague at first, but when one begins to look at psychological abuse on the level of what blacks endured during slavery or Jews endured during Hitler's reign, it is a little easier to comprehend. These incidents are a type of psychological abuse done on a coordinated group level to cleanse society and keep people in their place. Today instead of blacks and Jews it is homosexuals, abortionists, and others that need to be cleansed and Muslims and others who need to be kept in their place.

As a result of these viewpoints, two very, very different psychological abuse patterns have escalated in society.

First, instead of looking at the behavior and actions of homosexuals and abortionists as a manifestation of a past abuse, similar to the actions of those abused who were mentioned earlier, many are unable to look beyond the signs – drinking, drugs, sexual promiscuity, suicide, homosexuality, and abortions to face the initial psychological abuse as the cause. Then when the abused victims act out their suffering they get abused a second time, this time by people trying to cleanse society.

The second is an entirely different perspective. Rather than looking at homosexuality and people of the Muslim faith as a difference to be accepted such as people of the Jewish faith or people with black skin color, the natural difference whether it is skin color and sexual orientation or the freedom to hold a different religious belief, the difference is seen as the problem. When this difference becomes a strong focus a segregated society and all the problems that go with it is created.

A new path needs to be taken because these two patterns only foster additional turmoil. An inspiring model is the way the Catholic Church successfully faced their issue and brought about a healthy openness and awareness of sexual abuse and prevention through the Protecting God's Children program. Christianity as a whole needs to adopt a similar method to bring about a healthy openness and awareness of psychological abuse, its consequences, and its prevention. In 2008, I hope we elect someone to do this.

Lou Wms
Columbus, Ohio

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No heaven
Posted by: riffraff2001 on Oct 14, 2007 12:24 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like to correct anyone on here who says anything about "when they get to heaven" or some other such nonsense. Heaven doesn't exist. It never will. It's a fantasy that's more nightmare than dream. Have any of you ever even thought about what eternity really means? "Eternal Joy" sounds great but what does it even mean? For some people on this planet eternal joy means watching football all the time. But after a few million years of football games, I have to say I would start to get a little bored with football. So what does eternal joy mean? the usual response is "You just don't understand". Well no one does. When it's my time to die, I look forward to the fact that it will really be an end. No afterlife, (which is just people's pathetic fantasy about living forever) just death. And get this people: I won't know what it's like... because I'll be DEAD!! Imagine that.

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» RE: Heaven Posted by: Lauren
» RE: No heaven Posted by: rambam42
» RE: No heaven Posted by: tgabriel
» RE: No heaven Posted by: rambam42
» RE: No heaven Posted by: tgabriel
I AM A SOUTHERN BAPTIST
Posted by: froggeymonkey on Oct 14, 2007 7:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Richard Land does not speak for me, nor for many of my fellow church members. We still believe in the separation of church and state.

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» RE: I AM A SOUTHERN BAPTIST Posted by: tgabriel
» RE: I AM A SOUTHERN BAPTIST Posted by: smendler
Longhaired Preachers---
Posted by: WitchyNy on Oct 14, 2007 8:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
come out every night
Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right

When you ask about something to eat
They will answer with voices so sweet

You will eat by and by
In that glorious land in the sky

Work and pray
Live on hay
You'll get pie in the sky when you die

Working men of all countries unite
Side by side we for freedom will fight

When the world and it's wealth we have gained
to the grifters we'll this refrain

You will eat by and by
When you've learned how to cook and to fry
Chop some wood
T'would do ya good
And you'll eat in the sweet by and by

Joe Hill

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As I always say....
Posted by: Reality Chick on Oct 15, 2007 12:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..where's a good, old-fashioned Rapture when you need one? Please, PLEASE let it be true!! Whisk all the naked fundies away so we can get back to democracy, peace and love.

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Actually, I'd like to see a throwdown...
Posted by: smendler on Oct 15, 2007 1:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... between some of the Religious Right's zealots. some hardcore hyper-orthodox rabbis, and some of these Talibanish imams... Set it up just like Elijah did with the prophets of Baal. Put out some stuff, and everybody does their particular prayer thing asking their particular manifestation to do something miraculous to it. (Just blowing it up wouldn't count this time - too easy to fake.)

Then, when it becomes apparent that the Divine has not deigned to participate, all three of 'em can go out in the desert for forty days and hash it out among themselves.

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» Have it out on Highway 61 Posted by: smendler
Richard Land?
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Oct 18, 2007 4:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What sort of a naem is "Richard Land"???

Blimey - maybe he can open some sort of loony Christian theme park (can't call it a Fun Park, because religion is anti-fun) and call it DICK LAND!!!! ;)

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