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Rights and Liberties

The Religious Right's New Tactics for Invading Public Schools

By Rob Boston, Church and State. Posted October 4, 2007.


As the school year gets under way, public schools around the nation are under siege from Religious Right pressure groups determined to turn them into instruments of evangelism.
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In mid-August, Texas Gov. Rick Perry signed something called the "Religious Viewpoints Antidiscrimination Act" into law. Although the new law has an innocuous-sounding title, it's really a ticking time-bomb, opponents say.

The law requires every public school in the state to adopt a policy guaranteeing students' right to religious expression. It mandates that schools create "limited public forums" for religious and other types of speech. A student could, for example, read the morning announcements over a loudspeaker and then lapse into a prayer or mini-sermon.

Many people think the law is yet another effort to get around the Supreme Court's rulings on separation of church and state in public schools -- and they're expecting a torrent of litigation to result.

"This law is fundamentally at odds with the principle of religious freedom," said Kathy Miller, president of the Texas Freedom Network, an Austin-based group that opposes the machinations of the Religious Right. "It will force public school students to participate in public events that promote religious views -- through prayer or even proselytizing -- that they and their families may not share or may even find deeply offensive. So rather than protecting religious freedom, this law represents a grave threat to it.

"Rather than providing schools with training and appropriate guidelines for protecting First Amendment freedoms," Miller said, "legislators decided to play politics with our children's faith. So now they have recklessly put local schools and their taxpayers at risk of expensive lawsuits."

The law is of dubious constitutionality, and some school officials in the state are exasperated. Charles Perkins, Abilene Independent School District's assistant superintendent, told the Abilene Reporter-News, "I really do feel like the state law has been very confusing. It's opened some doors that no one thought to go through."

Perkins added, "Really and truly, we're just trying to have school, and I think this is a complicating factor."

The Texas law, which was drafted and promoted by a Religious Right group called the Liberty Legal Institute, is yet another salvo in a long-running battle in America over the proper place of religion in public schools.

The Supreme Court ruled 45 years ago that public schools may not sponsor prayer, Bible reading and other forms of religious worship. Rulings since then have generally extended that principle, while protecting truly voluntary religious activity in the schools.

But some people have never made their peace with the school prayer rulings. After the decisions were handed down in 1962 and '63, numerous constitutional amendments were introduced in Congress to "restore" prayer to schools. They have been a permanent fixture on the political scene since then, although none has passed.

Frustrated, Religious Right advocates are adopting new strategies to bring state-sanctioned fundamentalist outreach into the schools. The Texas law, critics say, is merely a new twist on an old fight.

It's not the only one. As another school year got under way last month, public schools around the nation found themselves under siege by groups obsessed with using the schools as instruments of evangelism.

The Texas law reflects the Religious Right's latest ploy: drafting students as evangelists to preach to a captive audience of their peers. The groups hope that the courts will consider the prayers and sermons offered during the "limited public forum" as a form of free speech that is, technically, not sponsored by the school.

One of the drafters of the law, a Houston attorney named Kelly J. Coghlan, urges students to lead their peers in prayer before the beginning of the school day as well as before football games, graduation ceremonies and other school events.

"For many years, students have been reluctant to stand up and express their faith in public schools for fear of being disciplined," Coghlan writes on his Web site. "Students should no longer have such fear. Schools are not religion-free zones; school officials are not prayer police; and students of faith are not enemies of the state. The new law makes this clear."

Coghlan fails to point out that his gambit is legally suspect. After the high court's school prayer rulings were handed down, some school districts tried to save school prayer by shifting the practice from school officials to student volunteers. One New Jersey school district even convened a daily five-minute assembly during which a student read the daily chaplain's prayer from the Congressional Record. Courts saw through these ruses and struck them down.

Nevertheless, some students seem eager to take matters into their own hands. Graduation ceremonies are sometimes marked by speakers who veer off into fundamentalist tangents. ABC News reported that in Duval County, Fla., earlier this year, valedictorian Shannon Spaulding of Wolfson High School "quoted the Bible and spoke about Jesus Christ, suggesting that those who didn't believe would go to hell."


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See more stories tagged with: religious right, church and state, public schools, pressure groups

Rob Boston is the associate editor for Church and State magazine.

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Jackie Speir
Posted by: Slmncty on Oct 4, 2007 12:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The California legislator knows very well what religion carried to extreme can do. The founding fathers knew what state sponsored religion would do. Preserving separation of church & state insures that each of us are entitled to pursue our own relationship with God on a unique individual basis if we so choose.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Religion benefits...
Posted by: compu on Oct 4, 2007 1:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ask those poor souls believing in Islam.
Religion,any of them bring the worst of humankind,Marx put
it well.
"Religion is the yearnings of the oppresed creatures,the reason of a world without reason,the heart of a world without it,the spirit of a world with none of it.
Its people opiate.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Religion is a tool
Posted by: chomsky on Oct 4, 2007 1:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is a tool to control the populations.
And this tool is more efficient on young brains...

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: eligion is a tool Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» People will screw you ... Posted by: Cathyc
Satanism should be given equal time
Posted by: drblack on Oct 4, 2007 2:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know as the teen i was i would be pushing for Black masses in school....this bill is sick as all theistic religions are.
I hope someday humans will give up superstition and begin to embrace reality.
the American public is so far behind other developed countries as far as science is concerned we may never catch up.
science is what has made America great and won WW2.
Rick Perry is a dumb- ass who ,like most republican neoCONS has no respect for the Constitution and knows nothing about American history and the extremely negative view the founding fathers and guys like Lincoln had of religion.
far from being a christian nation most of the important founders thought religion was silly superstition and only gave lip service to it because many of the less intelligent American's needed to be coddled.

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» RE: Right on! Posted by: kiel
» lincoln Posted by: openhouse
The Principle's List
Posted by: COinms on Oct 4, 2007 3:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The principle of my sons middle school in Starkville, Mississippi had his teacher ask each child in the room where they go to church. The answers were written down and turned into the principle yesterday. My son said none, since we 'home church' and do not participate in organized religion. I'm going to have a talk with the principle and remind him that his job is to educate these kids, not to convert them to his particular pentecostal faith.

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» RE: The Principle's List Posted by: davidg
» RE: The Principle's List Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: The Principle's List Posted by: SoCalLib
» RE: The Principle's List Posted by: COinms
they are trying it in Ontario
Posted by: davidg on Oct 4, 2007 3:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The current provincial elections have seen the Progressive Conservative Party (in name only) try to push funding of faith schools. They are losing the election because of it. It was naive and ill-considered by a simplistic and arrogant inexperienced leader. However, it's a warning. The barbarians are at the gate on both sides of the border.

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Big Christianity's unspoken purpose
Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 4, 2007 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As this article tends to confirm, organized Christianity, like all theistic religions, is intolerant of other religions and secularism, except where it is compelled to be tolerant by an enforceable contravening law, such as was the case in the U.S. until recently. Now that government is helping it, witness it stealth agenda, which is to grab control of the government and impose its values on the rest of us. Does anyone doubt that the church, given the power that it wielded over government in colonial Salem the last time it had complete control of the law and courts, would return to inquisitions and executions for heresy? If you do, I would say that you don’t understand political Christianity in the United States. Christianity, like all acquisitive and power-concentrating entities, never has enough if there is more to be had.

Incidentally, note that when I say “the church”. I am not talking about the church on the corner or the typical believer’s. Just the political, organized church, an abstraction far removed from the typical noncritical believer’s view of his religion each Sunday. To use modern parlance, I’ll call it Big Christianity.

While Jesus, like most pastors, may have preached love, nonviolence, cooperation, and charity, Big (institutionalized) Christianity is, in practice, about none of those things, as history has borne out repeatedly. It was invented (or co-opted) by the privileged classes to help them rule a large, exploited peasant class. Those are the people who want you to mimic Jesus of the beatitudes (be honest, meek, longsuffering, poor, etc.). Think about what Christianity teaches and how well it dovetails into this idea, and then ask yourself who benefits from such behavior:

1. What looks like injustice now will be squared later, after death.
2. Poverty and submission are to be extolled. So are honesty and industry. Abraham was a great man for his obedience to authority being willing to slay his son on command.
3. If somebody wrongs you, turn the other cheek. Love him. Forgive him. If you can't get over it, pray.
4. Remember Job. Don't try to understand God's goodness. God loves you and has a plan.
5. Have lots of children (for labor and soldiering). So, don't use birth control, be gay, single or have abortions. The rhythm method is OK (tee-hee!)
7. Give generously, at least 19%. Never expect an accounting of collections or expenditures.

Christianity, like the corporatocracy itself, is antithetical to democracy and freedom. Christians don’t vote for or against Christian law. Scholars may debate what God’s word is, but nobody debates “God’s decision”. There is no room for individualism or compromise among the faithful, such as preferring not attending a church or not tithing. None of it is open to debate by you. Furthermore, there is no compromise with anything considered the devil’s province, which means all of non-Christendom. Christians don’t compromise.

Remember Arthur Miller’s “The Crucible” (see HERE and HERE for summary.

Now, not every American Christian is aware of what kind of an entity it is that they support, what its actual purpose and methods are. Most, in fact, aren't. They see their religion as sweetness and light, and its critics as monsters. We're all used to that.

Here's the take home message: Big Christianity is a political enterprise that, when empowered (politically), is incompatible with freedom, tolerance, compromise, democracy and rights. It's not apparent how antithetical to liberal values it is in a liberal world where tolerant liberals protect it. In a conservative environment, as is true in America today, their true totalitarian nature emerges, unbeknownst to the rank and file.

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» I meant 5, not 1!! Posted by: COinms
Time to impose fines for knowingly defying the Constitution!
Posted by: Intellect on Oct 4, 2007 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is way past time to impose fines for organizations that conspire to knowingly defy the Constitution! In addition, they should lose their tax exemptions.

Church - State separation is a basic tenet of the First Amendment and any organization attempting to subvert it should incur significant fines. The religious right fundie Christian zealots are conspiring to subvert the Constitution!

The Constitution must be taught in our schools with particular emphasis on the Bill of Rights, Supreme Court cases in support of the First Amendment, etc.

I am all for freedom of religion but freedom of religion does not include wacko groups imposing their religion on me or my children. It is up to each individual to choose what if any religion they want practice.

Article VI of the Constitution says:
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Truthfully, all the religious pandering going on in the current series of presidential candidates debates should be forbade by law. It seems we do have a religious test going on, and it is deleterious to our freedom.

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Misrepresentation...
Posted by: Iaela on Oct 4, 2007 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is the same as bearing false witness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there something in the Bible about that being a big no-no? Or is it OK if you are lying for God?

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» RE: Jesus also said NO public prayer. Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Amen Posted by: kepstein7777
» Simple Answer to your question Posted by: LeaderofMen
LeaveUsAlone
Posted by: LeaveMeAlone on Oct 4, 2007 5:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up in a small town in the south. We had bible readings and prayer every morning in home room, piped in through the school intercom. We yawned, talked, fantasized about the cheerleaders, made faces at each other to get a laugh and conducted fart contests. No one was ever converted by that idiotic drivel coming through the box speaker mounted on the wall. If I were a Christian (which I'm proud to say I'm not) I would be the first to complain about subjecting my religion to such indignities. But then again, when did common sense matter to these fundamentalists?

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» This is closer to the truth Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: LeaveUsAlone Posted by: Lauren
another soloution...
Posted by: ellie on Oct 4, 2007 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is a little talked about soloution to the school religion issue... you do not have to be willing to do home school and still be under the control of your local school district... in many states, there is a set of laws for 'private, not for profit' schools like st. holy cow high or snotty rich academy... you have the right to establish your own school and report only to your state dept. of ed... check it out...

additionally, your tax money will not be sent to your local school district, but remain with the state for admininistrative fees to support the mountain of paperwork you need to take care of, but the payoff is;
1. cut off funds to religiously oriented school districts allocated for your kids
2. you set your cirriculum with the help of the state which has to be by federal law unbiased
3. you are the principal, teacher and school superintendant
4. you know that your kids are learning what they need to learn and not bible verses or sermons

been there, did it, got the t shirt... lots of work on your part, but well worth it!!!

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» RE: another soloution... Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: another soloution... Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» Your solution is crap. Posted by: Ellie1
» I need to check into this Posted by: paulaH
» RE: another soloution... Posted by: drmeow
Freedom equals freedom
Posted by: Jim on Oct 4, 2007 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are basic freedoms. Students freedoms should not be denied because they are in school. This means both that all minority views are permissible to express, and that students will most likely hear the local majority view most frequently. Learning to be respectful to prayers to Jesus, the Goddess, or Allah, or the praise of the amazing power of evolution will help create (pardon the expression) a more tolerant, understanding population.

With a majority not accepting human evolution, to ignore this looks like an act of cowardice to creationists. Encourage the critical examination of evidence for evolution and arguments against it. It will be much more educational and interesting. Let students hear both "there can't be evolution because the Bible teaches 6 day creation" and "there can't be creation, because science doesn't deal with the supernatural." Teaching critical thinking is much more important than convincing students a specific viewpoint.

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» False equivalency Posted by: brunowe
» RE: False equivalency Posted by: Knowmad
» I'll clarify Posted by: brunowe
» RE: I'll clarify Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: I'll clarify Posted by: Lauren
» RE: False equivalency Posted by: Jim
» True equivalency Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: True equivalency Posted by: Lauren
» RE: False equivalency Posted by: brunowe
» RE: False equivalency Posted by: mjglow
Texas
Posted by: JSquercia on Oct 4, 2007 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God save us from Texas . Can we please give those dullards their cherished REPUBLIC . Of course what can you expect from a state that elected Dubya over Ann Richards .
I hope the first student to take advantage of Gov Perry's new law is a Muslim . You can bet your bippy that would get their panties in a bunch . I think that any viewpoint OTHER than the correct kind of Christianity will have the same result .

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» RE: Texas Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Can we keep Austin? Posted by: brunowe
» It is! Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Can we keep Austin? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Damn Right! Posted by: Tombo
not that easy
Posted by: alby on Oct 4, 2007 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In Texas, where I live, my neighborhood was littered with Baptist propaganda overnight advertising in particular a group of musclebound proselytizers called Team Impact.

The next day, my daughter, who attends kindergarten, came home to say Team Impact had been smashing concrete and bats at her school (apparently that's what they do when not preaching). Supposedly there was no religious message in the text of their presentation, but the implicit message is obvious.

You can't just yank a schools funding because the Religious Right is getting sneakier and sneakier. Yet could you imagine any kind of equal access: a Muslim or Hindu group doing the same thing without incident?

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» RE: not that easy Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: not that easy Posted by: alby
» RE: not that easy Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: not that easy Posted by: Lauren
Religious literature
Posted by: lepidopteryx on Oct 4, 2007 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you're going to teach one religion's scripture as literature in a public school setting, then you have to give equal time to other religions' scriptures as well. And you have to teach them all as mythology, not some as fiction and some as non-fiction.
I don't want my child taught "about" Christianity at school. I don't want her taught "about" any religion, including my own (I'm Pagan) in school. I will handle her religious education myself - it's part of my job as the parent.

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» RE: Religious literature Posted by: COinms
» RE: religious literature Posted by: saltillosuzy
Religious Education has Always Been Open and Legal
Posted by: DrSuess on Oct 4, 2007 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I was growing up in Idaho in the 60’s, the public schools and the Mormon church had reached an agreement that allowed the Mormon church to teach religious education. Basically, students were given “release” time- or one hour off a day to engage in “external" activities. The Mormon and Catholic churches had properties right next to the high school (but not on high school ground- they were across the street). Students could opt to take these “external” classes instead of one of their regular classes. These classes were one of their “electives” and were not counted in their final grade- or recorded by the school. This has always been legal.
Also, in the small town I grew up in- there is a stone tablet with the “ten commandments” that stands outside the county court house. It obeys the law by having the symbols of all the world’s major religions on the tablets. Again – this has always been legal. It is not legal to have the “ten commandments” if ONLY Christianity is recognized. There needs to be an acknowledgement of other religions.
There has always been a way for religion to accomplish what they want in the current legal system. However, many of the fundamentalist preachers want to use these minor restriction to stir up their followers, and get them on crusades. Many of the current fundamentalists feel that they will go to hell if they don’t force their beliefs on everyone else. This is tragic, and annoying for the rest of us.

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This bothers me
Posted by: Robba29 on Oct 4, 2007 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
especially as a teacher. When I first started in public education I was reprimanded by my principal for tellling students I didn't believe in a god (after one of them came running to me tell me he was being pestered by other kids who believed and he didn't--the others followed, a discussion ensued about people having different beliefs, etc, when one kid asked me point blank--I figured why should I hide? He told his parents, the parents called the school...) Last year, I was talked to about teaching evolution (within the context of early humans as part of a unit on pre-history) by my principal who is fundamentalist. The book that we use dedicates over 30 pages to the Hebrews, but most of the time is actualy summarization of the old testament--its proselytizing. There are over 50 pages dedicated to christianity and the new testament and how great it all is--never once qualifying things with a "might" or "some believe". There are 11 pages dedicated to Islam (where kiids can read that Muslims believe in a different god), 4 for Buddhism and Hinduism, and about 1/2 page for others (like Zoroastianism). The teacher two doors down from me uses his room for bible study after school, but still during school hours and blasts Rush Limbaugh so everybody in the parking lot can hear it. I just moved here last year--so what I am experiencing here is quite different from where I was from. It is more rural, but still a university town--and this frightens me, because I know it is going on elsewhere--and to a greater degree. Where's the outrage? There's no support for challenge unless its sought out. And then what? Risk my job? I can't wait for tenure!

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» RE: This bothers me Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: This bothers me Posted by: Robba29
» RE: This bothers me Posted by: Chloe2005
» My mistakes Posted by: Robba29
» RE: I suggest... Posted by: peacelf
» RE: I suggest... Posted by: Robba29
what the founders intended
Posted by: vasumurti on Oct 4, 2007 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following excerpts are from Rob Boston's Why the Religious Right is Wrong About Separation of Church and State (Prometheus Books, 2003):

In his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, Jefferson wrote: “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

Similarly, in an 1824 letter to John Cartwright, Jefferson expressed anger at judges who had based rulings on their belief that Christianity is part of the common law. Cartwright had written a book critical of these judges, and Jefferson was glad to see it.

Observed Jefferson, “The proof of the contrary, which you have produced, is controvertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed.” Jefferson challenged “the best-read lawyer to produce another script of authority for this judicial forgery” and concluded, “What a conspiracy this, between Church and State!”

As president, Jefferson put his “wall of separation” theory into practice. He refused to issue proclamations calling for days of prayer and fasting, insisting that they violate the First Amendment.

As early as 1779, Jefferson proposed a bill before the Virginia legislature that would have established a series of elementary schools to teach the basics—reading, writing, and arithmetic.

Jefferson even suggested that “no religious reading, instruction, or exercise shall be prescribed or practiced, inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination.” Jefferson did not regard public schools as the proper agent to form children’s religious views.

As president, James Madison also put his separationist philosophy into action. He vetoed two bills he believed violated church-state separation. The first was an act incorporating the Episcopal Church in the District of Columbia that gave the church the authority to care for the poor. The second was a proposed land grant to a Baptist church in Mississippi.

Had Madison, the father of the Constitution, believed that all the First Amendment was intended to do was bar setting up a state church, he would have approved these bills. Instead, he vetoed both, and in his veto messages to Congress explicitly stated that he was rejecting the bills because they violated the First Amendment.

Later in life, James Madison came out against state-paid chaplains, writing, “The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles.” He also concluded that his calling for days of prayer and fasting during his presidency were unconstitutional.

In an 1819 letter to Robert Walsh, Madison wrote, “the number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state.”

In an essay called the “Detached Memoranda,” written in the early 1800s, Madison wrote, “Strongly guarded...is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States.”

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» Great book and Posted by: Robba29
What the founding fathers feared most
Posted by: kewpie on Oct 4, 2007 7:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What happened to seperation of church and state? This looks like a massive quagmire at first that can get into state controlled religion starting in the schools than it will work it's way through other means. The government will argue that the public schools are tax funded. Orwell saw this happening. It is not new. This is what our Jefferson and the others tried to escape from and why is our society running back to it? Calvinism is right around the corner...

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Rush Limpdog
Posted by: John Walters on Oct 4, 2007 7:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So a student who wants to express their opinions on marijuana (lets say by holding a banner that says, "Bong hits for Jesus" isn't constitutionally protected to do so because marijuana is illegal and, therefore, not permissible for a minor in school to openly discuss pros and cons of recreational marijuana use. Yet, a student who wants to proselytize in public schools to get that feather in their crown of thorns so Jesus will love them more when they die may do so regardless of the fact that any form of proselytizing has no place in public schools. CAN YOU SAY, “DOUBLE STANDARD!” The people who support this legislation would be angered if Buddhists and Muslims (or even Jews who don’t seek converts) started to educate students on their beliefs in the public school system. We know children are vulnerable, especially to peer pressure. Religion is more of a personal and family matter and it makes sense that talk of Jesus and the beauties of Christianity belong at home were the only pressure placed on kids to practice religion comes from mom and dad.

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» RE: ush Limpdog Posted by: gregs765
» the real person Posted by: Constitutionalist75
The Restriction of Freedom
Posted by: Jim Williams on Oct 4, 2007 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are three thing that strive to prevent human beings from being free: Religion, Politics, and STD's. Beware of all three!

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Rastafarianism
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Oct 4, 2007 8:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
will take over our schools.;)

plur

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» Oh yeah! Posted by: Coleman
66word
Posted by: cyit on Oct 4, 2007 8:52 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While, I don't think a student reciting prayers or religious text over a school loudspeaker is a good idea (simply from a practical perspective in accomplishing a spiritual objective), neither do I see any great harm.

If the notion of something that sounds religious falling out of a student's mouth is dangerous, than by the same token the current legislative debate that would make any unfavorable public comment (even a minister quoting the Bible) against gays a hate crime is also dangerous.

The bottom line is laws can not and will not change hearts and minds. Politicians on either side of controversial issues should just let people get on each others nerves now and then, and let it go at that.

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» It's the Golden Rule Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: 66word Posted by: lepidopteryx
Religion?
Posted by: diarmaid on Oct 4, 2007 9:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone whose life is based on religion or who assigns religion as their hi pri item of their lives, are dangerous. They are close minded and ignorant.

Schools however are where people learn new stuff, so religion must be kicked out of schools.

They can practice their religion in their churchs or mosqueus, though.

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» RE: Religion? Posted by: kiel
» RE: eligion? Posted by: diarmaid
Time to separate
Posted by: Razst on Oct 4, 2007 9:41 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ignorance and superstion are running rampant throughout this once great land of ours. We now are living amongst a huge segment of the population that no longer has the ability to reason or understand basic science. How can those of us who wish to be guided by logic and common sense continue to live head-to-head with these people. I believe the time has come to either emigrate or divy up the states according to each person's personal beliefs. We could have a state for those waiting for the rapture. One that excludes all homosexuals. One that prohibits immigration. One that excludes all minorities, etc., etc. Perhaps there will remain a few states left for those of us trying to remain sane and free of magical thinking.

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» divvy up the states, but... Posted by: Cathyc
Christian Right v. Wrong?
Posted by: peacelf on Oct 4, 2007 9:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a neo-Traditional Christian, I am as equally dumb-founded by right wing Christian behavior (I'll preface my comments by saying my "Christian" identity does not exclude reason and science as part of my beliefs, and I am a pacifist, anti-sexist, anti-racist, pro-life AND pro-choice, anti-death penalty, pro-secular, pro-democracy radical-- there are many Christians who feel the way I do, but we are usually lumped in with fundamentalists).

Moreover, as an educational theorist, I think there should be a lively, active debate in the classrooms about all religions, beliefs, the place of religions, fundamentalism, biblical literalism, etc. because the alternative is religious isolationism, which is largely responsible for fundamentalism we see in all religions. (This should happen in the churches as well, but that will take some time.)

Indeed, one problem is many Christian fundamentalists home school their children. The dangers of fundamentalism is that isolation prevents "fundamentalists" from having their beliefs challenged. This scares me more than Islamic fundamentalism, because it's right in my neighborhood.

Let's be frank, Christianity has a sordid history. Besides being slow to embrace scienctific discovery and theory, many people have killed in the name of Christianity. Such hypocrisy invites harsh criticism. But, as many people know, religion can be used to justify all sorts of evil behavior.

Yet, I would argue that it was not "religion" that was evil; it was imperialism using religion to justify evil behavior. Prior to the marriage of Christianity and Roman politics, Jesus message made sense and gave hope to many peasant people. As many poor people know, Jesus and the Old Testament prophets were anti-imperialism or more specifically, pro-poor people! Jesus was anti-Roman, anti-imperialism. Fundamentalists don't get that. Neither, do Christian detractors, for that matter.

The prophets and Jesus were against human kings and their greedy exploitation of the poor and powerless. God's law reigned supreme and any imperialist king who violated that law, would surely fall, as every empire has done since Mesopotamia.

Heaven is here on earth when the people follow God's laws: share the land, share the wealth, love your neighbor as yourself, be forgiving, compassionate and peaceful. It's a utopian vision only in that it requires going back to the days before empires and kings.

If secularists really want to challenge fundamentalism, they must do it by engaging fundamentalists in dialogue on their turf: the Bible; and if opening up the schools for a dialogue on religion helps that goal, then I wouldn't oppose it. I would embrace it as an opportunity for discourse. Anger, name-calling and pointing fingers doesn't help. The golden rule doesn't have to be for Christians only.

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» A good idea. Posted by: Coleman
» RE: A good idea. Posted by: peacelf
» RE: A good idea. Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: buttal Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: consider this... Posted by: peacelf
» One more reposte Posted by: LMNOP
frequently focusing on fulminating fun d' mental(ists)
Posted by: particle61 on Oct 4, 2007 10:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
redstateupdate.net covers christians who covet the consciousness of our children, as well as the nexus between bible thumpin' and military fist pumpin', see stories-

Classroom Prayer Meetings in Texas;

Born Again Principal Claims 'God Was Never Mentioned';

Air Force Changes Policy, in Jesus' Name;

Militant Ministers Concoct Combat Christ to Tempt Teenagers;

and many, many more in the 'fun d' mental' archive-
http://www.redstateupdate.net/fun-d-mental/fundmental.html

www.redstateupdate.net
funny, frightening, free
and 'it's all true'

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yet another fear-mongering alternet piece
Posted by: kenhymes on Oct 4, 2007 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Once more, Alternet uses a small number of cases of mostly unsuccessful incursion into school policy and curriculum to raise the specter of theocracy. This piece not only uses exaggeration ("around the country" means actively contested, hardly at all implemented laws in three states) and hyperbole, but suffers from a general lack of historical perspective on religion in the US.

A few generations ago, this was uncontested territory: public schools were full of unconstitutional, exclusionary, mandatory religious expressions. Pep rallies routinely featured Christian prayer; teachers assumed a Christian perspective was shared; churches and other groups used school resources and space to promote their own agendas and events. Anyone who was in school then, and works in schools now, can tell you that the landscape has changed dramatically, and for the better from the point of view of this Christian - the state and the church function poorly enough without confusing their areas of authority and usefulness.

The larger point here is that Alternet, along with much of the Inter-left, relentlessly beats this drum against a theocracy that is in no danger of happening. Americans of all beliefs don't want it, and the Christian right has no way of making it happen. They can make trouble, they have even made some unfortunate inroads into federal institutions, but largely they have received nothing for their trouble, in fact they have disredited their own institutions, and are losing cash and membership rapidly over the last fifteen years, especially among younger people.

There is one area in which going after local expressions of fundamentalism is justified (as opposed to simply waiting them out, letting the steady erosion of their base run its course): verbal, procedural, and occasionally physical attacks on gay teenagers. This is a big deal, and very damaging to communities and individuals. But this is not the same thing as a realistic chance of national success by James Dobson and his ilk.

This lack of proportion is, however, EXTREMELY damaging to the left as a national voice. It is the most tactically stupid course imaginable. Study after study show two things throughout the last few decades: 1. huge majorities of Americans see themselves as religious in some way, though they mostly mistrust religious institutions (even when they are members of them). 2. huge majorities of Americans share the priorities of the "progressive" movement - universal health care, restraints on corporate behavior, protection of the biosphere, fair labor practices, a renewed focus on internal needs rather than foreign "adventurism."

So everytime a left commentator or author or blogger spews vitriol about religion being "a mental illness," or writes conflated history laying every problem of humanity at the feet of religion, it is a wedge driven between the left as a political force and its natural constituency.

It also reflects ignorance of the history of successes by the left. Religious people have ALWAYS been involved in large numbers whenever progressive causes have gained traction. You alienate the efforts people of faith are making in their own communities when you hurl insults. Examples: my own church in Charlottesville VA houses homeless people, and advocates for fair housing with 34 other local groups including Muslims and Humanists. We were part of a huge arena event here at which local politicians heard from us about housing, transportation, and the situation of low wage workers in our community. The policy debate has changed here as a result of this. Are we lunatics for believing in God? Maybe, but we are sure doing more than the local parties about the needs of poor people.

Please let us work together, build bridges, and address the real problems. Our children will not thank us for wasted opportunities.

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» You're wrong Posted by: ReallyBearish
» You're both right. Posted by: Coleman
Difference?
Posted by: Solar Wind on Oct 4, 2007 10:42 AM   
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And this differs from Muslin madrasses how?

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» RE: Difference? Posted by: Joshua Holland
It seems theistic religions
Posted by: willymack on Oct 4, 2007 10:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
christianity chief among them are very much like a chronic disease which may wane on occasion, only to come roaring back, especially in times of national stress or other opportune times for charlatans to peddle their wares. They all have one factor in common, that is they're all based on ignorance and fear. Take a look at the sorry state of our educational systems today, what with students "graduating" from high school unable to read or comprehend what's on their diplomas.I can't claim to explain who's behind this sad situation, but I CAN state that the "no child left behind" fiasco is not helping at best, and may be a deliberate effort to create a nation of compliant ignoramuses at worst. One of the dictims of Orwell's "1984" is Ignorance is Strength. That's right only insofar as the ruling elite is concerned as it means strength for them alone and oppression for the rest. Religion, then, can be thought as a salve to relieve and assuage the indignities and outrages the common man is forced to endure under an autocratic and uncaring regime. Does this remind you of our current regime? In my opinion, this is a major factor in our current plight.

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» RE: Sounds more like... Posted by: peacelf
Education in schools, private or public, is already FUCKED UP. I went to a Jewish private school and
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 4, 2007 10:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
here's the scoop.

A Saudi-American student asked a world history class teacher to teach about the history of Saudi Arabia and not only did the teacher refuse, he threatened to FAIL him and turn him over to the principal on "disruption" charges.

Imagine a Jewish private school that has NO interests in actually educating their students about the real causes of violence and terrorism but instead putting them on sleazy trips to the Holocaust museum and teaching them to play the victimization game thereby making them no better than Hitler or Stalin.

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» Confusing ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
refused to look through my telescope
Posted by: zooeyhall on Oct 4, 2007 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just to let people know how bad it truly is out here in the boonies (Nebraska, to be exact), how much religion has reached the point of a mass psychosis:

I am an amateur astronomer. We had our company picnic recently, and I brought along my 12inch Meade telescope for the evening. I thought it would be great to let people see some of the wonders of the universe.

We have a clique in our company of these fundamentalist Christians just like described in the article.

They refused to look through my telescope. They said looking through it and hearing my scientific explanations of what they were seeing would "undermine their faith in God".

I do not bullshit.

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» RE: refused to look through my telescope Posted by: TheNamelessCity
» RE: mick3 Posted by: Ellen Remore
» secede Posted by: openhouse
» RE: mick3 Posted by: EJ
school prayer (part 1)
Posted by: vasumurti on Oct 4, 2007 11:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Public schools exist to educate, not to proselytize. Horace Mann, the father of our public school system, championed the elimination of sectarianism from American schools, largely accomplished by the 1840s. Bible reading, prayers or hymns in public schools were absent from most public schools by the end of the 19th century, after Catholic or minority-religion immigrants objected to Protestant bias in public schools.

As early as the 1850s, the Superintendent of Schools of New York state ordered that prayers could no longer be required as part of public school activities. The Cincinnati Board of Education ruled in 1869 that “religious instruction and the reading of religious books, including the Holy Bible, was prohibited in the common schools of Cincinnati.” Presidents Ulysses S. Grant and Theodore Roosevelt called for “absolutely nonsectarian public schools.” Roosevelt stated that it is “not our business to have the Protestant Bible or the Catholic Vulgate or the Talmud read in those schools.”

In McCollum vs. Board of Education (1948), the Supreme Court struck down religious instruction in public schools. In Tudor vs. Board of Education of Rutherford, the Court let stand a lower court ruling that the practice of allowing volunteers to distribute Gideon Bibles at public schools was unconstitutional.

In Engel vs. Vitale (1962), the Court ruled that prayer in public schools is unconstitutional. In Abington Township School District vs. Schempp (1963), the Court ruled that Bible reading and recitation of the Lord’s Prayer in public schools are unconstitutional. In Stone vs. Graham (1980), the posting of the Ten Commandments in classrooms was also declared unconstitutional. In Lee vs. Weisman (1992), the Court ruled that prayers at public school graduation ceremonies are an establishment of religion.

Although the high court ruled that state-sanctioned prayer in schools is unconstitutional, it did not seek to remove all study about religion. In fact, in Abington Township School District vs. Schempp (1963), the justices maintained that a student’s education is not complete without instruction on the influence of religion on history, culture and literature.

Justice Tom Clark, representing the court, wrote: “Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistently with the First Amendment.” Clark added that government could not force the exclusion of religion in schools “in the sense of affirmatively opposing or showing hostility to religion.” The court’s ruling suggested merely that a student’s family, not government, is responsible for decisions about religious instructions and guidance. There was respect, not hostility, toward religion in the court’s ruling.

Justice Clark concluded: “The place of religion in our society is an exalted one, achieved through a long tradition of reliance on the home, the church, and the inviolable citadel of the individual heart and mind. We have come to recognize through bitter experience that it is not within the power of government to invade that citadel, whether its purpose or effect be to aid or oppose, to advance or retard. In the relationship between man and religion, the State is firmly committed to a position of neutrality.”

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school prayer (part 2)
Posted by: vasumurti on Oct 4, 2007 11:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1995, a joint statement of current law regarding religion in public schools was published by a variety of religious and civil liberties organizations. This statement served as the basis for U.S. Department of Education guidelines intended to alleviate concerns about constitutional religious activities in schools. Here are some general rules concerning what school personnel and students may do:

(1) Students have the right to pray or to discuss their religious views with their peers so long as they are not disruptive.

(2) The history of religion and comparative religion are permissible school subjects so long as the approach is objective and serves a legitimate educational purpose.

(3) Students may study the role of religion in the history of the United States.

(4) Schools may discuss various religious groups’ beliefs about the origin of life on Earth in comparative religion or social studies classes.

(5) Students may express their religious beliefs in the forms of reports, homework and artwork so long as such expression meets the other criteria of the assignment.

(6) Religious or anti-religious remarks made in the ordinary course of classroom discussion or student presentations and that are germane are permissible, but students do not have the right to give sermons to a captive audience.

(7) Students have the right to distribute religious literature to their classmates, subject to reasonable time, place and manner restrictions.

(8) Students have the right to speak to, and attempt to persuade their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics.

(9) Student religious clubs in secondary schools must be permitted to meet and to have equal access to campus media to announce their meetings.

(10) Public schools may teach objectively about religious holidays and may celebrate the secular aspects of the holiday.

(11) Students may wear religious messages on clothing, just as they may wear religious attire, such as yarmulkes and head scarves.

(12) Students may be released for religious instruction off school premises.

(13) Students may read the Bible or other religious literature during their free time at school.

Faith groups that support the First Amendment and oppose government-sponsored prayer in public schools include: National Council of Churches; American Baptist Churches, USA; Christian Church (Disciples of Christ); The Episcopal Church; Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; Friends Committee on National Legislation; Mennonite Central Committee USA; Presbyterian Church (USA); General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists; United Church of Christ; United Methodist Church; Unitarian Universalist Association; American Jewish Congress; Anti-Defamation League; Central Conference of American Rabbis; National Council of Jewish Women; North American Council for Muslim Women; Soka Gakkai International—USA.

Most religious denominations, ranging across the theological spectrum, have issued formal statements supporting the Supreme Court’s prayer and Bible-reading decisions. These people of faith value the hard-won freedom of conscience that belongs to all of us.

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Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian
Posted by: WitchyNy on Oct 4, 2007 12:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The way to deal with this is to send our kids to school wearing pentagrams, black clothes, and chanting HOLY MOTHER EARTH.
They could hand out articles on sacred birth control rights and the true God---Darwin.

These Christians do not want religious freedom in the public schools-they want CHRISTIANITY in the public schools.
Call them on it.

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CHRISTIANS ARE AS CHRISTIANS DO
Posted by: outrider on Oct 4, 2007 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The United States is not now and never was a Christian nation.

To paraphrase Forrest Gumps’ “stupid is as stupid does”, Christians are as Christians do.

Bush’s so-called Christians have politicized Christianity. Through their support of Bush’s aggressive wars and neglect of the needs of the People, they have insulted the Bible and the United States Constitution. They are heretics and traitors.

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CHRISTIANS ARE AS CHRISTIANS DO
Posted by: outrider on Oct 4, 2007 1:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The United States is not now and never was a Christian nation.

To paraphrase Forrest Gumps’ “stupid is as stupid does”, Christians are as Christians do.

Bush’s so-called Christians have politicized Christianity. Through their support of Bush’s aggressive wars and neglect of the needs of the People, they have insulted the Bible and the United States Constitution. They are heretics and traitors.

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» awake Posted by: openhouse
When I was a young man
Posted by: willymack on Oct 4, 2007 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Slim and trim in my Navy blue dress uniform and riding a Greyhound bus fron San Francisco to Philadelphia, a pretty young woman got on at Salt Lake City and asked if she could sit next to me. I said:"yes". Said young woman wasted no time proclaiming herself a Mormon and asked what I knew about the Mormon church. I told her:"next to nothing". She then went on to tell me about Joseph Smith's experience with Moroni, a son of Mormon himself, and himself an angel. She went on to tell me of the golden tablets which, of course, only Smith could read, etc.,etc. She paused to say:"isnt that wonderful?" I stated I had my own relevation a few years back. The lady eagerly encouraged me to go on, and I did, making it up as I talked. I said that one day when I was stumbling through the woods with a bottel of muscatel in my hand, a chipmunk jumped up on a stump and told me he was the Master of the Universe. Now, who am I to argue with a talking chipmunk? I immediately sallied forth and founded the Church of the Celestial Chipmunk. Every year we have a ceremony which includes naked dancing, a sacrifice (a stray cat or dog, or unpopular neighbor), after which we shoot a chipmunk out of a cannon to commemerate the ascention of the Celistial Chipmunk to Heaven. The lady was deeply offended and told me so in no uncertain terms, to which I replied:"Lady, you've your story and I've got mine, and 'm sticking with it". She then took herself from my presense. Imagine that.

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» RE: When I was a young man Posted by: lepidopteryx
Only in America
Posted by: Ellen Remore on Oct 4, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God, no wonder the Europeans think Americans are all nuts! These people are positively obsessed--not only with the mythology of an ancient desert tribe, but also with the incredibly arrogant corollary that everyone is obligated to share their moronic gullibility.

And why the never-ending hissy fit over praying in school? Do they actually think their offspring are bound for damnation if they don't get their requisite two-minute Jesusation wallow? That's no more likely than the same two minutes turning atheists' kids into miniature James Dobsons.

As for the guy who states that "schools are not religion-free zones"---oh, really? Did I call in sick the day some judge decided that one? Ditto the quoted valedictorians. Amazing. The other members of their classes must all have been brain-damaged.

My personal belief is that if there's really a god, he/she will initiate the Rapture, and save us all from these fucking IDIOTS!!

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» idiots Posted by: openhouse
So Sad
Posted by: Thor54 on Oct 4, 2007 1:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is troubling is that those that are behind such 'strategies" like putting prayer back in schools are not even remotely 'Biblical.' Much of the theology of the Religious Right is a modern invention that is not even close to the writings that first appeared after the death of Jesus, or even the later Bible that was highly edited by early Church people. In the same way, these "tactics" are not in line with constitutional thinking of the past 200+ years. But these people have decided to try to break down legal strictures bit by bit so that they may have their way in the future. If one is observant, one might notice that the same type of mechanism has gone on with "economic fundamentalists." Those that constantly bring up the name of Adam Smith either seem never to have read him or just manipulate any of his writings that is not within their objectives. Smith wrote that graduated taxes were entirely appropriate but that cannot be found in any of the thinktanks that hold him up as a saint. Smith also wrote of the enforcement of certain regulations when evident lawbreaking was occurring. So, in religion, politics, and economics there are people who do not have the capacity to think rationally. Contradictory evidence simply is see as opposition smokescreens, political humbuggery. Therefore, prayer in school is good, although it resembles the those religions that they hate. They are afraid of Harry Potter. They believe in Islamofascism when they themselves act like Christianfascists.

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Simply more despotic theocracy at work
Posted by: keefus55 on Oct 4, 2007 2:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As Sinclair Lewis once said, "When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

It would appear that the so-called "rabid religious right" is learning just how out of touch with the rest of society (and our Constitution) they really are. Which is why they are now down to trying such desperate measures as these clearly unconstitutional laws which absolutely WILL NOT stand federal legal muster.

Thankfully, their grand plans to turn our nation into a despotic theocracy are now falling down around their ears as more and more of the rest of us witness the sheer, blatant hypocrisy (if not the outright fraud and chicanery) now being perpetuated by the so-called "leaders" of these "holier than thou" types.

In that narrow sense, the Presidency of George W. Bush has been a Godsend because the true nature of their (and his) theocratic plans for our nation have now been revealed (and personified) for all to see.

Our Founding Fathers very carefully crafted our Constitution so as to firmly prohibit the establishment of a "state religion" all the while guaranteeing every citizen the right to free expression of their own religious beliefs.

I certainly have no qualm with someone expressing those religious beliefs in their own, private way. However, I (and most others) are increasingly drawing the line when the "holy rollers" attempt to cram their narrow beliefs down the rest of our throats via captive audiences in such public places as our schools.

Maybe that's because most of the rest of us have now learned that the so-called "Moral Majority" isn't so "moral" (nor is it a "majority") after all.

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Teach 'em HISTORY instead.
Posted by: Crazy H on Oct 4, 2007 3:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During the Inquisition, there was prayer in schools. But were they happy then?

"Boo hoo hoo, I don't want to be burned at the stake for being a Protestant"

"Weh! Weh! Weh! Please don't pull my skin off with hot tongs just because I'm Jewish"

In colonial days, England had prayer in schools. So how come the Puritans and the Pilgrims came over here? The king was gracious enough to host a big public hanging and invite anyone who wasn't in the Church of England. There's just no pleasing some people.

So, now we come to Texas - okay, forget the Wiccan prayers during morning announcements, instead say the mass in Latin. That'll set just fine with the Southern Baptists, now won't it?

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More Converts = Bigger Bonus From Jesus
Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 4, 2007 3:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Much of contemporary evangelism, and why it is so dangerous, is that the religious evangelizer believes his or her "standing in heaven" is pumped up based on the number of converts. Like a McDonalds making profit based on the sales of Big Macs, the evangelizer usually beliefs Jesus or God will shower favor on him or her based on the number sold (volume of converts).

Many of them preach incessantly, yet, they are the first ones you will see in the liquor store or the topless joint. You see, it's the volume of converts that counts. You can be "forgiven" for everything else.

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» From Jesus Posted by: openhouse
Texas has problems enough
Posted by: dkm on Oct 4, 2007 4:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, guys, Texas is a big state and not all of it is given over to the Bible Thumpers. During the last presidential election Bush lost some counties in the South of the state (Excuse me, Republic) along the Rio Bravo. Furthermore, the Texas Observer is doing a bang up job of publicizing the idiocies of the Lege. (Actually, given the wealth of material, their job isn't all that difficult.) Remember Molly Ivins? She's Texan. Remember Ann Richards? She was actually elected governor and her daughter is doing a great job for the progressives. In addition there are a fair number of decent folk running around Austin and even some Aggies are not totally mindwiped. Having said that, I do have to admit that this McLeroy cretin has been a real dork for a while now. And there are lots more like him.

Quite a few years ago, a grade school teacher in College Station (Home of the Aggies - think Robert Gates, Phil Gramm) tried to teach her students to meditate as a means of controlling their hyperactivity and giving them a method of relaxation. The local community had a hissy fit! She was inculcating Eastern Philosophy into our impressionable children! Enough of us existed to make fun of the ignoramuses so that they shut up soon enough, but it shows what kind of mental midgets are so common there. Making fun of them seems to be the best medicine because they can't get angry without looking like bigger dorks, but often satire goes over their heads. They have the vague feeling that someone is laughing at them, but they don't see the joke.

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» thumping Posted by: openhouse
» RE: thumping Posted by: Crazy H
Turkiye
Posted by: Turiye on Oct 5, 2007 1:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My daughter attended a prep school last year, I understand it is private and Episcopal. The problem i ran into was during Ramazan ( in Arabic Ramadan ), she must fast during this holiday. She has a calender of daily sunsets and sunrises, she must eat before sunup and cannot eat again until after sunset.
The school was aware my daughter is Muslim yet they made her sit at each meal and watch as other's fed themselves. I made the school aware of my concerns, I asked if there were any other Muslims on campus. They looked at one another, rather resembling deer caught in headlights, replied I think one.
My daughter did not force her beliefs on anyone, they are her beliefs. But in these times she faced horrific and Islamophobic comments daily.
I withdrew her and had to put her in public school, where, in all honesty, her treatment was worse.
Too much going on in this world of ours, our leader the worst of it.

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» RE: No such thing as a Muslim child Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: Turkiye Posted by: soulrebeljc
» RE: Turkiye Posted by: Katota
teaserpony
Posted by: teaserpony999 on Oct 5, 2007 1:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't worry a 25% to 60% (GASP) fall in home prices over the next 12 months will make the US economy go into a free fall, this will hit the GOP with a faithbased faceplant that will kill any hopes for a(R)whitehouse for 20 years...

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teaserpony
Posted by: teaserpony999 on Oct 5, 2007 2:10 AM   
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(R) is for retard

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Could this be a move to get it to the Supreme Court
Posted by: warrior woman on Oct 5, 2007 6:37 AM   
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Could this be a move to get it to the Supreme Court for a new ruling? Could very well be. Send it up the chain to the very conservative Roberts court. We lose.

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confused
Posted by: shikejian on Oct 5, 2007 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems we are getting confused in our definition of religion. Religion is a very large concept, Christianity is one of its subsets. . .as is Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc. Marx, too, was horribly confused. The very funny thing about Kahlil Gibrain and schools named after him being Islamic-centred is that KG was a Christian. Of course, the Christians in America pushing their far right agenda are just as confused but just as fascist as all religions: fascism preaches "my way is right and if you don't believe it you can be eliminated." (Read Wilhelm Reich; further reading would be Ernst Cassirer.) When you look to history, all that's going down now is not to be wondered at, considering the state of the world and the fact that there's a change coming--or else people wouldn't be so fanatical and gov'ts so authoritarian in attempting to halt the world and keep the old ways, as it were, alive. I dare say that if these people win out, a generation or so down the road, someone will discover great thinkers outside the pale. . .as happened with humanism in the 11th century and beyond: The Church kept certain knowledge away for fear of losing its power, as occurred with the Cultural Revolution when virtually the only thing available in school and elsewhere were Mao's outpourings, no science, no intellectualizing, no philosophizing, nothing.

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JOHN L.
Posted by: JOHN L. on Oct 5, 2007 8:48 AM   
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Religion(s) are theories that simply don't hold water~(though they certainly hold the ca$h!)
Contrast with science, which must ALWAYS defend its' findings with 'proofs' of reproductability, and progresses with credible findings subject the same controling factors.
Faith-based believers hang onto the same self-contradicting myths and magic fables forever. While individuals often do great good deeds for their fellow beings, their religions tend to relieve them of the social responsibility we all share.

That is probably its' greatest sin against all life (life it claims to serve)~

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» science Posted by: openhouse
» RE: science Posted by: mjglow
Mr.Gary F. Moraco
Posted by: Samson on Oct 5, 2007 3:04 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think DUH? is the appropriate response to this.My question is why the!#$%! ARE YOU TRYING TO DRAFT GORE you dumb&$$!

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Some actual data
Posted by: freedem on Oct 5, 2007 8:24 PM   
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I was once stuck for a few months in the tiny town of Wilcox Arizona. Aside from their chief industry of preying on travelers across the desert, there was not room for more than one of any sort of business, one Grocery, one dairy queen, one clothing store, etc., even only one stoplight.

But there was one square that had maybe ten Churches (each a different denomination) and there in the center of all of it was a huge sign saying "Massage Parlor".
I suppose they might have only done backrubs as I never actually checked, but that image still burns brightly after 40 years.

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» RE: Some actual data Posted by: freedem
I should get a tax break for homeschooling
Posted by: paulaH on Oct 6, 2007 4:47 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Across the country, public schools are being pressured to adopt classes that teach "about" the Bible. Three states -- Texas, Georgia and South Carolina -- have adopted legislation authorizing such classes. Other states are considering similar laws.

Which is one big reason my son will soon be homeschooling. The problem is that I will be paying for that, plus my taxes will be paying for the public schools. I don't have a problem with my taxes doing so unless they start paying for religious instruction in those schools. Then I have a problem. A big one. I don't want MY taxes to go towards promoting a religion I feel is the bane of the world.

As for the charter school that wants to focus on Arabic, they, too, need to keep religion out of it. I'll bet, however, the biggest ones screaming about it are the Christians that are so hellbent on promoting THEIR religion in taxpayer supported schools.

Hypocrits.

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More Attacks on Academia & Critical Thinking
Posted by: MLMrev on Oct 7, 2007 2:55 PM   
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David Horowitz has launched "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week" OCT.22-26 with the aim of whipping up Islamo-phobia and rallying reactionary foot-soldiers to put progressive academics on the defensive.

There MUST be a response to this.
See the following links for pertinent info:
You Can't Defeat Fascism By Ignoring It
Defend Critical Thinking!
and a FREE MP3 Talk by Bob Avakian titled "Balance" Is The Wrong Criterion – And A Cover for a Witch-hunt – What We Need is the Search for the Truth: Education, Real Academic Freedom, Critical Thinking and Dissent

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EVANGELISM OVER HOMOISM
Posted by: Malcus Garvey on Oct 7, 2007 5:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Preferably, I'd rather see a school/system of religious nuts, than sexually overactive and publicly promiscuous ones. With our youngsters being so impressionable, thay can be better citizens down the road from religiosity, than homoSInsualism.
Abominations bring on greater Wraths than devout faithics.

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» RE: VANGELISM OVER HOMOISM Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: VANGELISM OVER HOMOISM Posted by: mjglow
» RE: VANGELISM OVER HOMOISM Posted by: Katota
Legal?
Posted by: aspetuck on Oct 8, 2007 11:34 AM   
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Regardless of the fact that the whole idea of such a law is ridiculous, how can it even be a legal law, if the voting behavior to make that law, (many voting 3-5 times on the same vote, for different people on their automated voting system in the Texas legislature), is in itself illegal? Go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG6X-xtVask

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It's too late!
Posted by: Katota on Oct 8, 2007 1:17 PM   
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Don't worry about students meeting for Bible studies, as an invasion of Separation of Church/State, but look to CONGRESS and George II's NCLB enactment. What you have here are public schools being assailed for petting violations, such as teachers lacking to take a course or two in ESL (English as a Second Language) which exempts them from being a "highly qualified" teacher. Without this (HQ) credential, teachers must actually send a LETTER to parents stating "I am writing to inform you that I am not a highly qualified teacher" (Regardless on her M.Ed and 20 years of teaching!!!) It gets better! Then, she must, BY LAW, state "You have the right to send your student to a PRIVATE school for which the STATE will pay his/her TUITION!!!" (Gee, thats' US taxpayers!)
This agenda will destroy, as it was intended to do, our nation's public school system and allow our children the RIGHT to attend the new Jesuit schools that are suddenly "popping" up all over town! Give us liberty! Give us freedom!

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I Believe
Posted by: tommy1957 on Oct 10, 2007 12:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe the christians should be able to worship anywhere the want and to die for christ. I am a descendant of the Emperor Nero. Therefore I demand that my rights also be recognized; the right to crucify all christians; and the right to feed them to my lions, tigers, and bears. Let us celebrate the crucifixion of let's say, James Dobson, or Patty Robertson. They are both outstanding fundamental christian Nazi’s. Ah nothing more enjoyable than a crucifixion. The sound of screaming christians as the nails piercing their flesh, music to my ears.

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True Religious Freedom,...
Posted by: cokids on Oct 11, 2007 10:41 AM   
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....would necessitate the open invitation to ALL religions to be represented in these student contributions. If a Christian student can preach his values and beliefs, so can a Muslim, Jewish, Wicken, or Buddhist student! Let the 'word' of another religion pass the airways in a school and this rule will quickly be changed. What good Christian would want their children exposed to such 'mythology?' Perhaps it will be decided that prostheletizing (sorry, don't know how that word is spelled.) has no place in US public schools. Save it for home and church/mosque/temple!

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