COMMENTS: 64
The Politics of Stillbirth
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Thirteen years ago, Joanne Cacciatore delivered a stillborn fetus, a trauma that was compounded by the fact that she received a death certificate in the mail but no birth certificate -- a tangible memento she said would have helped her grieve.
Motivated by her loss, she mounted a grassroots campaign in her home state of Arizona to get the government to give parents who deliver stillborn fetuses the option of receiving a "certificate for stillborn birth" -- and in so doing unintentionally waded into the turbulent waters of abortion politics.
Although reproductive rights advocates say they sympathize with Cacciatore, they also fear her effort -- which has since ballooned into a nationwide campaign -- could aid anti-choice groups as they attempt to chip away at or eliminate abortion rights. "There's no question in my mind that the anti-abortion crowd will look for some way to use this," Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women, has said. At issue is the question of "personhood," or when human life begins; the answer lies at the heart of the debate over abortion.
Opponents of abortion rights contend that life begins at the moment of conception, and they have sought to define embryos and fetuses as human beings with a right to life. Under their logic, abortion is murder and should be illegal. Supporters of abortion rights do not equate embryos and fetuses with full human beings. Granting "personhood" to embryos and fetuses before they are born raises their legal status and jeopardizes women's right to abortion, they say.
Abortion-rights opponents have not taken up the cause of stillborn birth certificates en masse, Cacciatore said. But pro-choice groups worry that Cacciatore's movement to enact what she calls "Missing Angels" laws, which would grant fetuses that die before they are born certificates of stillbirth, will push anti-choice groups one step further in their quest to make abortion tantamount to murder.
On average, there are more than 25,000 stillbirths a year, according to the National Center for Health Statistics in Atlanta, Ga.
NOW has not taken an official stand on the issue. But Gandy said the organization has urged local women's rights activists to oppose legislation that doesn't include language guaranteeing that certificates of stillborn birth will only be issued to fetuses that die as a result of a naturally occurring intrauterine death after the 20th week of pregnancy. NOW also stipulates that certificates must only be issued only to parents who request them.
Otherwise, aborted fetuses could be eligible for the certificates -- a sign that would confer greater status, she said. And if outside parties could request the certificates, anti-choice groups might inundate states with requests for aborted fetuses, she said.
Cacciatore says the "Missing Angels" bills should not be muddied up in the contentious debate over reproductive rights. "The bottom line is, if these women want it, it should be their choice," she said.
But pro-choice activists have reason for caution: Efforts to improve the legal status of embryos and fetuses have gained considerable ground in recent years.
In 2002, the Bush administration expanded the State Children's Health Insurance Program to include embryos and fetuses, a move that for the first time made them separate beneficiaries of a government program, according to NARAL Pro-Choice America, a leading abortion rights advocacy group.
And in 2004, Congress passed and Bush signed the "Unborn Victims of Violence Act," a law that made it a separate federal crime to harm an embryo or fetus, giving them rights apart from the mothers. The law passed in the wake of the 2002 death of Laci Peterson, a California woman who was 8 months pregnant when she was murdered by her husband.
Cacciatore's campaign, pro-choice advocates fear, could further the personhood movement.
That is why Planned Parenthood of New Mexico recently objected to a "Missing Angels" bill even though it passed the state legislature with near unanimous support. "We're always concerned about measures that elevate the legal status of the fetus," said Martha Edmands, director of public affairs of Planned Parenthood of New Mexico.
New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, a Democrat running for his party's presidential nomination, vetoed the bill on April 6. In a letter of explanation, Richardson did not cite reasons related to abortion but said the bill would cause logistical problems because it would issue two certificates -- one for stillbirth and one for death -- for the same event. "Having two documents for a single vital event can lead to confusion and potential fraud and is not sound policy," he wrote.
Richard Olsen, a member of the National Stillbirth Society in Phoenix, Ariz., blamed Richardson for kowtowing to political pressure from reproductive rights groups. "This was just political opposition by a governor who wanted to show the women of America that he was pro-choice," Olsen said. Cacciatore agreed, adding that 20 states have already passed similar laws and none have encountered logistical problems.
"Missing Angels" bills have faced opposition elsewhere from state chapters of national groups that back abortion rights, including NOW, NARAL Pro-Choice America, the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, the American Civil Liberties Union, and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Cacciatore said.
In California, where a "Missing Angels" bill is pending in the state legislature, Planned Parenthood of California, the California Medical Association, and the California American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology have tried to block the bill.
But Cacciatore doesn't expect opposition to spread. This year, in fact, has been the most active yet, she said: "We're gaining momentum."
This article is available on The American Prospect website.
© 2007 by The American Prospect, Inc.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cruella on Jul 31, 2007 2:35 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Interesting but...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: talkville on Jul 31, 2007 3:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Very dangerous waters.
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Hate to sound conspiratorial, but now all people born in the USA are given SS numbers and
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
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Posted by: nopuppy on Jul 31, 2007 5:05 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are so incredibly, unbelievably, magnificently screwed up in our thinking that I finally throw up my hands and say to hell with the entire human species.
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» RE: Oh good grief
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Oh good grief
Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: Oh good grief
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: particle61 on Jul 31, 2007 5:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Diehards Debate Death Certificates, see issue 91
and much more...including-
Classroom Prayer Meetings in Texas-
Militant Ministers Concoct Combat Christ to Tempt Teenagers
Pope Pontificates Patently Problematic Political Policy-
all at the 'fun d' mental archive-
http://www.redstateupdate.net/fun-d-mental/fundmental.html
and a new gwbush comic every week!
www.redstateupdate.net - funny, frightening, free
and no fake hill-billies
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Posted by: Conservasaurus on Jul 31, 2007 5:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Definitions
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Definitions
Posted by: Conservasaurus
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 31, 2007 5:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: But once born, the "pro-lifers" have a different set of pro-DEATH policies for them.
Posted by: luzmejor
» That's true but it's best to take their language and weaponry and keep battering against them.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: But once born, the "pro-lifers" have a different set of pro-DEATH policies for them.
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: But once born, the "pro-lifers" have a different set of pro-DEATH policies for them.
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: But once born, the "pro-lifers" have a different set of pro-DEATH policies for them.
Posted by: dmaciewski
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jul 31, 2007 7:01 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But for this woman to drag the ENTIRE country into her grief is to be so selfish as to border on insanity. This was HER loss. It was not MY loss. I don't have to be a party to HER loss. Sorry about YOUR loss, but it was not MINE.
Get it? You're trying to change the law because of your grief. I say get a psychoanalyst and some drugs and let them both work for you.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Just Grieve and Get Thru It...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» truly horrible response
Posted by: Liberal Hippie
Comments are closed-
Posted by: poppop_schell on Jul 31, 2007 7:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ronpaul2008.com
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» RE: ON PAUL, A MEDICAL DOCTOR, HAS DELIVERED OVER 3600...
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Conservasaurus : Glad you think Ron Paul is looking better. The Iowa Strawvote...
Posted by: poppop_schell
Comments are closed-
Posted by: solrev on Jul 31, 2007 7:35 AM
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» yep. Couldn't agree more.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
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Posted by: g on Jul 31, 2007 8:00 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» oh dear god...
Posted by: Liberal Hippie
» delusions?
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 31, 2007 8:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks, ANNA
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» RE: A WINNING STRATEGY
Posted by: luzmejor
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 31, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but pro-choice advocates worry...
I give. The author is at once both pro-choice on the topic of abortion, but anti-choice with regards giving a piece of paper to the grieving mother of a stillborn baby. Predictably, "pro-choice" in this case amounts to nothing more than personal preference, and the author doesn't hesitate to adopt a stiff anti-choice stance when faced with something so threatening--so dread--as to provoke...
...wait for it...
...worry! More succinctly, the author is "pro-choice" as long as the neighbor's choices don't threaten some closely held belief structure or other articles of faith. Ring a bell for anyone?
...:knock, knock, knock:...
That was the need for a new lexicon beating on your door.
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jul 31, 2007 9:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More feel-good, big government bullshit from the supposed conservatives.. used, of course, as another stepping stone to having government in every part of your life.
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Posted by: owleyes on Jul 31, 2007 10:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Bill Richardson is right
Posted by: luzmejor
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Posted by: luzmejor on Jul 31, 2007 10:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we let women-haters return us to the days of illegal abortions, all of those women will be investigated as possible felons too. You see, supposedly religious people cannot believe that every pregnancy and all fetus development is presided over by god and therefore, without human interference, must be "perfect."
Unfortunately, during and after those very publicized investigations, family reputations are forever damaged, not to mention their mental health.
Having listened to many right-to-life tirades during a long and eventful nursing career, I know that is actually the basic and most fervent goal of their very nasty and insincere political rhetoric.
Perhaps many of you are too young to remember those bad old days, but that is precisely what happened during the many years that abortions were considered a felony crime.
No pregnant woman was ever treated with even a trace of respect by anyone during all that time. Women with pregnancy complications got no sympathy either. Hospital treatment attitude at that time was clearly "If she dies, so what? She deserved it!"
We return to those days at our peril. Believe me, I am not exaggerating even a little bit.
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» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: morticia
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: morticia
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
Comments are closed-
Posted by: morticia on Jul 31, 2007 12:31 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Here's something better than a birth certificate:
Posted by: Liberal Hippie
» RE: Here's something better than a birth certificate:
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» RE: Here's something better than a birth certificate:
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Counterpoint
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» Ah, semantics!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Ah, semantics!
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» RE: Ah, semantics!
Posted by: morticia
» Can of worms
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Can of worms
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» RE: Can of worms
Posted by: BlueTigress
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Liberal Hippie on Jul 31, 2007 2:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also happened to notice some of you have made rather rude and disrespectful comments as to why families would want a birth certificate. What a lovely display of your complete lack of compassion, my friends. God forbid you should ever have to walk a road like this. A death of a child, at any age, is the single most devastating time in any parent's life. People can say some god-awful stupid things concerning someone else's tragedy. Idiots.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: now wait just a damn minute
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» Bad circumstance. Good post.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fibrowitch on Jul 31, 2007 5:38 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can not compete against the dead, no matter ho.w hard you try. I wonder what kind of life any other children she might have will live? How will they compete against her 'little angel'
Finally one day, the family doctor sat us down as a group, he told my mother that the first child had never lived. He never took a breath on his own, never took a bit of food in his mouth. He stopped living long before he left her body. That he said is why you were issued a death certificate, and a plot for the body. But you were never given a birth certificate. There is a name on the stone, and only one date.
I believe that independent life starts when the umbilical cord is cut, and not one second before. This is a bad idea.
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Posted by: johngeb on Aug 1, 2007 1:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» not quite
Posted by: Liberal Hippie
» Oh give me a break...
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» RE: Oh give me a break...
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: Oh give me a break...
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bearzerker on Aug 3, 2007 1:51 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and have you noticed how they are trying to turn this little fact around to their advantage!
saying that, the people who are trying to protect individual freedoms and choice, are pro death and anti-law et al... or something like that...
Actually I'm not really sure how they're trying to turn the logic here as I try to ignore em as much as possible...
These right wing, superstitious religious necromancers make me wonder who and where the true Americans are?
sound off if ya got a pair... your freedoms are at risk here!
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cruella on Jul 31, 2007 2:35 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Interesting but...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Jul 31, 2007 3:47 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Very dangerous waters.
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Hate to sound conspiratorial, but now all people born in the USA are given SS numbers and
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nopuppy on Jul 31, 2007 5:05 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are so incredibly, unbelievably, magnificently screwed up in our thinking that I finally throw up my hands and say to hell with the entire human species.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Oh good grief
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Oh good grief
Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: Oh good grief
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: particle61 on Jul 31, 2007 5:25 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Diehards Debate Death Certificates, see issue 91
and much more...including-
Classroom Prayer Meetings in Texas-
Militant Ministers Concoct Combat Christ to Tempt Teenagers
Pope Pontificates Patently Problematic Political Policy-
all at the 'fun d' mental archive-
http://www.redstateupdate.net/fun-d-mental/fundmental.html
and a new gwbush comic every week!
www.redstateupdate.net - funny, frightening, free
and no fake hill-billies
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Jul 31, 2007 5:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Definitions
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Definitions
Posted by: Conservasaurus
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 31, 2007 5:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: But once born, the "pro-lifers" have a different set of pro-DEATH policies for them.
Posted by: luzmejor
» That's true but it's best to take their language and weaponry and keep battering against them.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: But once born, the "pro-lifers" have a different set of pro-DEATH policies for them.
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: But once born, the "pro-lifers" have a different set of pro-DEATH policies for them.
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: But once born, the "pro-lifers" have a different set of pro-DEATH policies for them.
Posted by: dmaciewski
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Jul 31, 2007 7:01 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But for this woman to drag the ENTIRE country into her grief is to be so selfish as to border on insanity. This was HER loss. It was not MY loss. I don't have to be a party to HER loss. Sorry about YOUR loss, but it was not MINE.
Get it? You're trying to change the law because of your grief. I say get a psychoanalyst and some drugs and let them both work for you.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Just Grieve and Get Thru It...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» truly horrible response
Posted by: Liberal Hippie
Comments are closed-
Posted by: poppop_schell on Jul 31, 2007 7:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ronpaul2008.com
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: ON PAUL, A MEDICAL DOCTOR, HAS DELIVERED OVER 3600...
Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Conservasaurus : Glad you think Ron Paul is looking better. The Iowa Strawvote...
Posted by: poppop_schell
Comments are closed-
Posted by: solrev on Jul 31, 2007 7:35 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» yep. Couldn't agree more.
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Comments are closed-
Posted by: g on Jul 31, 2007 8:00 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» oh dear god...
Posted by: Liberal Hippie
» delusions?
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jul 31, 2007 8:39 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks, ANNA
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: A WINNING STRATEGY
Posted by: luzmejor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Jul 31, 2007 9:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but pro-choice advocates worry...
I give. The author is at once both pro-choice on the topic of abortion, but anti-choice with regards giving a piece of paper to the grieving mother of a stillborn baby. Predictably, "pro-choice" in this case amounts to nothing more than personal preference, and the author doesn't hesitate to adopt a stiff anti-choice stance when faced with something so threatening--so dread--as to provoke...
...wait for it...
...worry! More succinctly, the author is "pro-choice" as long as the neighbor's choices don't threaten some closely held belief structure or other articles of faith. Ring a bell for anyone?
...:knock, knock, knock:...
That was the need for a new lexicon beating on your door.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Jul 31, 2007 9:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More feel-good, big government bullshit from the supposed conservatives.. used, of course, as another stepping stone to having government in every part of your life.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: owleyes on Jul 31, 2007 10:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Bill Richardson is right
Posted by: luzmejor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: luzmejor on Jul 31, 2007 10:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we let women-haters return us to the days of illegal abortions, all of those women will be investigated as possible felons too. You see, supposedly religious people cannot believe that every pregnancy and all fetus development is presided over by god and therefore, without human interference, must be "perfect."
Unfortunately, during and after those very publicized investigations, family reputations are forever damaged, not to mention their mental health.
Having listened to many right-to-life tirades during a long and eventful nursing career, I know that is actually the basic and most fervent goal of their very nasty and insincere political rhetoric.
Perhaps many of you are too young to remember those bad old days, but that is precisely what happened during the many years that abortions were considered a felony crime.
No pregnant woman was ever treated with even a trace of respect by anyone during all that time. Women with pregnancy complications got no sympathy either. Hospital treatment attitude at that time was clearly "If she dies, so what? She deserved it!"
We return to those days at our peril. Believe me, I am not exaggerating even a little bit.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: morticia
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: morticia
» RE: luzmejor
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
Comments are closed-
Posted by: morticia on Jul 31, 2007 12:31 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Here's something better than a birth certificate:
Posted by: Liberal Hippie
» RE: Here's something better than a birth certificate:
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» RE: Here's something better than a birth certificate:
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Counterpoint
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» Ah, semantics!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Ah, semantics!
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» RE: Ah, semantics!
Posted by: morticia
» Can of worms
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Can of worms
Posted by: GradientConsequence
» RE: Can of worms
Posted by: BlueTigress
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Liberal Hippie on Jul 31, 2007 2:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also happened to notice some of you have made rather rude and disrespectful comments as to why families would want a birth certificate. What a lovely display of your complete lack of compassion, my friends. God forbid you should ever have to walk a road like this. A death of a child, at any age, is the single most devastating time in any parent's life. People can say some god-awful stupid things concerning someone else's tragedy. Idiots.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: now wait just a damn minute
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» Bad circumstance. Good post.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fibrowitch on Jul 31, 2007 5:38 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You can not compete against the dead, no matter ho.w hard you try. I wonder what kind of life any other children she might have will live? How will they compete against her 'little angel'
Finally one day, the family doctor sat us down as a group, he told my mother that the first child had never lived. He never took a breath on his own, never took a bit of food in his mouth. He stopped living long before he left her body. That he said is why you were issued a death certificate, and a plot for the body. But you were never given a birth certificate. There is a name on the stone, and only one date.
I believe that independent life starts when the umbilical cord is cut, and not one second before. This is a bad idea.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: johngeb on Aug 1, 2007 1:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» not quite
Posted by: Liberal Hippie
» Oh give me a break...
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» RE: Oh give me a break...
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: Oh give me a break...
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bearzerker on Aug 3, 2007 1:51 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and have you noticed how they are trying to turn this little fact around to their advantage!
saying that, the people who are trying to protect individual freedoms and choice, are pro death and anti-law et al... or something like that...
Actually I'm not really sure how they're trying to turn the logic here as I try to ignore em as much as possible...
These right wing, superstitious religious necromancers make me wonder who and where the true Americans are?
sound off if ya got a pair... your freedoms are at risk here!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
ACORN Smear Collaborator Claims Persecution to Raise Money for Her Legal Troubles
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