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Rights and Liberties

Despite Large Majorities, Democrats Are Chicken on Gun Control

By Drew Westen, The American Prospect. Posted June 25, 2007.


When it comes to gun control, Democrats fall silent. As with many hot-button social issues, they can't figure out how to reach people's emotions. Here's how they can regain their moral compass -- and their power of speech.
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The following is excerpted from Drew Westen's "The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation" (Perseus, 2007). It first appeared in the American Prospect.

On April 16, Seung-Hui Cho, a senior at Virginia Tech University in Blacksburg, Virginia, carried two semiautomatic pistols onto campus and killed 32 people. It was the deadliest shooting in modern American history.

The following week, a nation listened in horror as witnesses recounted stories of how they had barricaded desks against their classroom doors to keep the psychotic young man from entering, only to hear him spend a round of ammo, drop the spent clip, and reload in seconds.

Democratic leaders offered the requisite condolences. But that's all they offered. They didn't mention that the Republican Congress had let the Brady Act, which banned the sale of semiautomatic weapons, sunset in 2004. They didn't mention that in the decade or so after the passage of that act, 100,000 felons lost their right to bear arms, but not a single hunter lost that right. Instead, the Democrats ran for political cover, waiting for the smoke to clear.

This wasn't the first time Democrats scattered when threatened with Republican gunshots. They were silent as the Beltway sniper terrorized our nation's capital a month before the midterm elections of 2002. And they have been silent or defensive on virtually every "wedge" issue that has divided our nation for much of the last 30 years. When the Republicans tried to play the hate card again in 2006, this time under the cover of immigration reform, Democrats scrambled to pull together a "policy" on immigration, instead of simply asking, "What's the matter, gays aren't working for you anymore?"

So how did we find ourselves where we are today, with an electorate that has finally figured out that the once larger-than-life Wizard of Terror was nothing but a projection on a screen -- and an opposition party that can't seem to find its heart, its brain, or its courage, and instead wonders what's the matter with Kansas?

And most importantly, how do we find our way back home?

***

Visions of Mind

Behind every campaign lies a vision of mind -- often implicit, rarely articulated, and generally invisible to the naked eye. Traces of that vision can be seen in everything a campaign does or doesn't do.

The vision of mind that has captured the imagination of Democratic strategists for much of the last 40 years -- a dispassionate mind that makes decisions by weighing the evidence and reasoning to the most valid conclusions -- bears no relation to how the mind and brain actually work. When strategists start from this vision of mind, their candidates typically lose.

Democrats typically bombard voters with laundry lists of issues, facts, figures, and policy positions, while Republicans offer emotionally compelling appeals, whether to voters' values, principles, or prejudices. As a result, we have seen only one Democrat elected and reelected to the White House since Franklin Delano Roosevelt (Bill Clinton, who, like Roosevelt, understood how to connect with voters emotionally) and only one Republican fail to do so (George Bush Senior, who ran like a Democrat and paid for it).

Our brains are nothing but vast networks of neurons. Of particular importance for understanding politics are "networks of associations" -- bundles of thoughts, feelings, sounds, images, memories, and emotions that have become linked through experience. People can't tell you much about what's in those networks, or about what's likely to change them (which happen to be the central determinants of voting behavior). They can't tell you because they don't have conscious access to them, any more than they can tell you what's going on in their pancreas. And if you ask them, they often get it wrong.

In polls and focus groups, voters told John Kerry's consultants that they didn't like "negativity," so the consultants told Kerry to avoid it. To what extent those voters just didn't know the power of negative appeals on their own networks, or didn't want to admit it, is unclear. What is clear is that George W. Bush won the election by spending 75 percent of his budget on negativity against a candidate whose refusal to fight back projected nothing but weakness in the face of aggression -- precisely the narrative Bush was constructing about Kerry.

If you start with the assumption of a dispassionate mind -- of voters who weigh the utility of each candidate's stand on a range of issues and calculate which candidate has the greater utility -- you inevitably turn to pollsters as oracles to divine which issues are up, which are down, and which are best avoided. The vision of the dispassionate mind represents public opinion in one dimension -- a straight line, from up to down, high to low, pro-choice to anti-abortion, anti-gun to pro-gun.

But this is a one-dimensional rendering of three-dimensional data. If you start with networks, you think very differently about campaigns, from the way you interpret polling data to the way you handle the wedge issues that have run Democratic campaigns into the ground for decades. On virtually every contentious political issue -- abortion, welfare, gay marriage, tax cuts, and, yes, guns -- polls show a seemingly "mixed" pattern of results, with the electorate endorsing what seem like contradictory positions. The vast majority of Americans support gun regulations but also support the right to bear arms. So are Americans pro-gun or anti-gun?

That's the wrong question. And it inevitably leads Democratic strategists to the wrong answer: "Take the issue off the table -- it's radioactive."

This kind of one-dimensional thinking fails to appreciate that voters may be of two minds about an issue. The same issue often activates two or more networks that lead to different feelings in the same person (e.g., concern about guns in the hands of criminals, and support for the rights of law-abiding citizens to protect their families), and different groups of voters may have radically different associations to the same thing (whether to guns, gays, abortion, or immigrants). Unfortunately, these are just the kinds of issues that arouse the most passion and, hence, have the biggest impact on both voting and get-out-the-vote efforts. And they are generally the issues Democrats try to avoid.

If you cede the contentious issues, you cede passion to the other side. And given that people vote with their "guts," if you cede passion, you ultimately concede elections.

Republicans go straight for these gut issues, and they now have the confidence that they can do so even when support for their position is in the range of 30 percent, as is the case with their absolutist stance on abortion (that abortion is murder and should be illegal under all circumstances) and guns (that the right to bear arms is inviolable, no matter what the death toll). Democrats usually don't contest them, the public never hears a compelling counternarrative, and public opinion gradually shifts to the right.

If you understand how networks work, you understand that candidates should never avoid anything -- particularly when the other side is talking about it. Doing so gives the opposition exclusive rights to the networks that create and constitute public opinion.

***

Hunting for principles

If ever there was an issue on which Americans are of two minds, it is guns. Most Americans believe in the Second Amendment, but most Americans also support a host of restrictions on gun sales and ownership. In the 2004 pre-election Harris poll, slightly more than half of Americans reported favoring stricter gun laws, but far fewer -- only one in five -- wanted to relax the current laws. (When Harris framed the question more specifically in terms of handguns, the percentages became even more lopsided, closer to 3-to-1 in favor of stricter regulations.) Only a small majority, however, supports tougher gun regulations, and many of these people are clustered in large urban areas and on the coasts. This is one of those mixed pictures that lead Democratic strategists to run for the hills.

Al Gore epitomized Democrats' discomfort with guns in an exchange with Bush in their second presidential debate in 2000:

Moderator: So on guns, somebody wants to cast a vote based on your differences, where are the differences?
Gore: ... I am for licensing by states of new handgun purchases ... because too many criminals are getting guns. There was a recent investigation of the number in Texas who got, who were given concealed-weapons permits in spite of the fact that they had records. And the Los Angeles Times spent a lot of ink going into that. But I am not for doing anything that would affect hunters or sportsmen, rifles, shotguns, existing handguns. I do think that sensible gun-safety measures are warranted now.
Look, this is the year -- this is in the aftermath of Columbine, and Paducah, and all the places in our country where the nation has been shocked by these weapons in the hands of the wrong people. The woman who bought the guns for the two boys who did that killing at Columbine said that if she had had to give her name and fill out a form there, she would not have bought those guns.
Behind this response we can hear the whirring of the dispassionate mind -- the gratuitous reference to the Los Angeles Times, the reference to Columbine without offering an evocative image. But what is most striking about this response is the lack of any coherent principle that might explain why Gore would place restrictions on new handguns but not on old ones. (Are the existing ones too rusty to kill anybody?) Nor does he justify why he is excluding hunting rifles, although the viewer can infer (correctly) that he wants to get elected.

Bush couldn't respond to the most powerful part of Gore's response, about the woman who had handed the guns to the Columbine shooters. So after reiterating his opposition to requiring gun purchasers even to show photo identification, he switched to a "culture of life" message (aimed at activating anti-abortion networks under the cover of guns) and a "culture of love" message (suggesting that somewhere out there there's a child longing to be told he's loved -- which would presumably prevent massacres like Columbine). Bush's message was not only cognitively incoherent; it was actually lifted from a phenomenally moving eulogy Gore had delivered at Columbine.

True to the dispassionate vision of the mind, Gore failed to mention that he had been at Columbine. With all their debate preparation, his campaign strategists never realized that the vice president's best weapon on guns was that magnificent eulogy, in which he artfully invoked "that voice [that] says to our troubled souls: peace, be still. The Scripture promises that there is a peace that passes understanding."

Bush presented Gore with a golden opportunity to personalize the issue, to put the face of a child on it. With a response like the following, he would have placed in bold relief the extraordinary indifference implicit in Bush's response and the extremism of the conservative narrative Bush was embracing:
Governor, I walked with those shocked and grieving parents, teachers, and children at Columbine; I shed tears with them; and I delivered a eulogy that Sunday by their graveside. I remembered with them the heroism of their beloved coach and teacher Dave Sanders, who bravely led so many to safety but never made it out of the building himself. I remembered with them a young girl named Cassie Bernall, whose final words were "Yes, I do believe in God."
I just told you how the woman who bought the guns that took the lives of Dave Sanders and Cassie Bernall wouldn't have done it if she'd just had to fill out a form and show a photo ID. And you still can't feel for Coach Sanders' wife and children, who'll never wrap their loving arms around him again? You still can't weep for Cassie's parents? You still think it's sensible to require someone to show a photo ID to cash a check but that it's too much to ask that they show an ID to buy a handgun?
Americans do have a clear choice in this election. And it is about a culture of life. They can do something to honor the lives of those who died that day at Columbine. Or they can vote for a man who, as governor of Texas, signed a law allowing people to bring guns into church.
Although most Americans were much closer to Gore than Bush on guns in the 2000 Harris poll, they thought Bush was stronger on gun control. Although Kerry had hunted all his life, Bush was the overwhelming choice of American sportsmen, even though he'd purchased his Crawford ranch as a prop only two years before running for president -- something Democrats never thought to mention in two presidential campaigns. Nor did they mention, as James Carville and Paul Begala have pointed out, that Bush had stocked his ranch's man-made lakes with fish because the river running through it was too polluted.

These are just the kinds of facts and images that win elections. And they are just the kinds of facts and images that should win elections, because they tell where a candidate really stands, not just where he stands for photo ops.

This is precisely the kind of information that informs the emotions of the electorate.

***

Gunning for common ground

To understand the poll numbers on guns in three dimensions, you have to consider the different associations the word "gun" evokes in urban and rural America. If you prime voters who have grown up in big cities with the word "gun," you are likely to activate a network that includes "handguns," "murder," "mugging," "robbery," "killing," "crime," "inner-city violence," "machine guns," and "criminals." If someone in New York City is packing a piece, he isn't hunting quail.

But now suppose we prime a group of voters -- let's make them men -- in rural America with precisely the same word, "gun." This time, the associations that come to mind include "hunt," "my daddy," "my son," "gun shows," "gun collection," "rifle," "shotgun," "protecting my family," "deer," "buddies," "beer," "my rights" -- and a host of memories that link past and future generations. A voter who lives in a rural area knows that if an armed intruder enters his house, it could take a long time before the county sheriff arrives. The notion of being defenseless doesn't sit well with southern and rural males, whose identity as men is strongly associated with the ability to protect their families.

There are some voters you just can't win. As my colleagues and I discovered when we scanned the brains of partisans during the last presidential election, roughly a third of Americans' minds won't bend to the left no matter what you do or say (roughly the percent who continue to support Bush). But southern and rural voters are not unambivalent in their feelings toward guns. Rural voters have no fondness for what happened at Columbine or Virginia Tech, and they have little genuine affection for handguns or automatic weapons. If the National Rifle Association scares them into supporting semiautomatics for felons and teenagers with its slippery-slope argument about "taking away your guns," the fault lies as much with the Democratic Party, which has put such a powerful safety lock on its own values that no one knows where Democrats really stand -- on this or virtually any other moral issue.

When a party finds itself courting potentially winnable voters who have seemingly incompatible associations, the first task of its strategists should be to look for two things: areas of ambivalence and ways of bridging seemingly unconnected networks to create common ground. The areas of ambivalence on guns are clear, but Democrats should be searching for the common ground that connects left to right on guns. One of the most powerful "bridging networks" revolves around law and order. A central appeal of conservative ideology is that it emphasizes the protection of law-abiding citizens. Those in the cities who want gun control for the protection of their families and those in the countryside who decry the lawlessness of the cities share the same concern: the freedom and safety of law-abiding citizens. Democrats should also connect the dots between the extremist message of the NRA and another powerful network: terrorism. You can't fight a war against terrorists if you grant them unrestricted access to automatic weapons on your own soil.

This convergence of networks suggests a simple, commonsense, principled stand on guns that Democrats could run with all over the country:
Our moral vision on guns reflects one simple principle: that gun laws should guarantee the freedom and safety of all law-abiding Americans. We stand with the majority of Americans who believe in the right of law-abiding citizens to own guns to hunt and protect their families. And we stand with that same majority of Americans who believe that felons, terrorists, and troubled teenagers don't have the right to bear arms that threaten the safety of our children. We therefore support the right to bear arms, but not to bear arms designed for no other purpose than to take another person's life.
***

Shooting blanks

At Virginia Tech, we witnessed another Terri Schiavo moment, when Democrats could have asserted a progressive moral alternative to an extremist narrative of the far right. But once again, they cowered in the corner, hoping to convince the American public that they're almost as right as the Republicans. Unfortunately, you never win elections by being almost as principled as the other side. If only one side is talking about its values, its candidate -- not the moral runner-up -- will win over voters.

With the polls strongly at their backs, Democrats had a historic opportunity to turn the Republicans' indifference to the suffering at Virginia Tech into a moral condemnation, and to put every Republican in Congress on record as caring more about the blood-soaked dollars of the NRA than about the lives of our children. Instead, they turned tail and ran, fearing they'd be branded as "anti-gun" and pushed down the slippery slope the NRA has used to pick them off at the ballot box for years: "They want to take away your gun."

But you only have to worry about getting branded and being pushed down slippery slopes if you're playing checkers while the other side is playing chess -- worrying about their next move when you should be anticipating six moves ahead. Democrats didn't do what they knew was the right thing because of their concerns about the political fortunes of red-state Democrats like Heath Shuler in North Carolina. But they wouldn't have had to worry -- and they would have picked up a lot of "security moms" and plenty of dads -- if they had simply put Shuler in front of the camera, flanked by a couple of pro-gun Democrats like Montana Senator Jon Tester, with a hunting rifle over his left shoulder and an M-16 over his right, armed with a simple message:
This [pointing to the gun on his left] is a rifle.
This [the gun on his right] is an assault weapon.
People like you and me use this one [left] to hunt.
Criminals, terrorists, and deranged teenagers use this one [right] to hunt police officers and our children.
Law-abiding citizens have the right to own one of these [left].
Nobody has the right to threaten our kids' safety with one of these [right].
Any questions?
If you can't speak the truth and win elections, you need to learn another language. The language that wins elections is the language of the heart.

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See more stories tagged with: democrats, framing, gun control

Drew Westen is Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at Emory University and the author of the forthcoming book, "The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation."

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From my cold dead hands? Try it. I’m the one with the guns.
Posted by: White middleclass male on Jun 25, 2007 1:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I noticed they mentioned the Cho story. I didn’t see any stories about people that defended themselves in their homes from a meth head while the police took half hour to respond.

When I first moved to Washington in 2005, there was a series of home invasion robberies. The man also liked to raped the occupants. I bet some of those people wished they had a gun, has they were wondering if they were contracting HIV at that very moment.

If a candidate trys to take my guns, I promise you, I will vote for a their Republican counterpart.

The Brady Bill banned only the manafacture of styles of weapons. For example a SPAS 12 semiauto shot gun that holds 8 rounds was banned because it looked scary. You could still go into any gun store and buy a Remington semiauto shotgun that held 8 rounds. Weapons where also grandfathered. You could own, sell, buy any of the banned weapons or high capacity magazines. They just could not be produced or imported after the ban. All the Brady bill did was raise the price of my 30 round AR15 magazines from 20 dollars to 23.

-Chris L. NRA member since 2003

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Criminals mainly use hand guns Posted by: White middleclass male
» Aus tu bleeft Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Criminals mainly use hand guns Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Does not compute. Posted by: justaguy
» Only in America? Posted by: White middleclass male
» Maybe in a comic book. Posted by: justaguy
» Somehow I doubt that Lowclassass! Posted by: johngary66
» Strawman. Posted by: justaguy
» Well, when do you start? Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Strawman. Posted by: Krain61
» And... Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Does not compute. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Actually... Posted by: justaguy
» RE: Actually... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Whatever. Posted by: justaguy
» Believe what you like Posted by: White middleclass male
Mike Males
Posted by: mmales on Jun 25, 2007 1:24 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another Alternet author who just doesn't get it. Dr. Westen proposes that Democrats adopt Republican scapegoating tactics--courageously opposing guns in the hands of "felons, terrorists, and troubled teenagers"--to appeal to voters on an emotional level. But he fails to mention that those three groups account for only a small fraction of gun deaths, including murders. The vast majority of gun deaths involve adults, particularly middle-aged men, who legally own guns. Further, so long as "law abiding" adults can obtain guns, there is no feasible way to prevent terrorists, felons, or teens from obtaining them, either legally or through inevitable black markets. What he proposes is that Democrats engage in Republican-style demagoguery at the expense of advocating sound social policies--no wonder he admires Bill Clinton, whose popularity stemmed from vilifying unpopular groups such as minorities and teenagers enroute to furthering the Reagan agenda. In fact, America's gun carnage relates directly to fear of exactly the groups Dr. Westen proposes to further scapegoat ("felons," of course, is a codeword for inner-city blacks and Latinos, which Clinton well understood). What Democrats need to do is turn down the fear, relentlessly point out that middle American adults cause the large majority of gun deaths, and argue for an end to easy scapegoating of the young, poor, and "foreign" in a diverse society. These three now-feared groups, respectfully and correctly appealed to, are the future of progressive success. www.YouthFacts.org

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» Agreed Posted by: EKSwitaj
» RE: Mike Males Posted by: Bozly
» RE: Mike Males Posted by: dennisblewitt
Read before writing
Posted by: willie.horton on Jun 25, 2007 4:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are so many factual errors in this article that it's downright painful to read. The author comes off like he's doing an unintentional liberal parody of Rush Limbaugh's show.

The Dems backed off on "gun control" for two reasons:
1. More and more registered Democrats are against it, because it doesn't work.
2. They got tired of losing national elections.

The last thing we need is to lose yet another big election to the NRA.

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» RE: ead before writing Posted by: jmp3954
» Brady Act? Posted by: YogiBear
Gun Banning is NOT a definitive issue for Democrats.
Posted by: RON_KING on Jun 25, 2007 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason the Party is schizo on the subject is that Democrats are not of one mind on the subject. Neither are Republicans. While it is popular to paint the issue as black and white, or Red and Blue if you prefer, the demographics of gun ownership, and indeed NRA membership, cannot be limited to one political party. Additionally, a person's reasons for owning, or wanting to own, a gun are as varied as the people who do.

I, for one, am a life-long Democrat and a Life Member of the NRA. I also support the ACLU.

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» Confusing phrase by modern standards Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» pinkpistols.org Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Another insignificant issue!!!! Posted by: starvinmarvy
Buy your magazines while you can
Posted by: ateo on Jun 25, 2007 4:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The next president is all but assured to be a democratic one. Therefore the likelihood of another gun ban is high. I will be purchasing many high capacity magazines prior to the '08 election. I may purchase large quantities of ammunition and a few weapons as well because we're looking at another decade plus trampling of my second amendment rights.

Hey, I wish I was wealthy and could spend all of my time in high dollar areas swarming with cops and private security and live in a gated community but that just isn't in the cards. Politicians, celebrities and the wealthy may not need weapons with their secret service/body guard protection, armored cars, and gated communities but the rest of us do.

America is a violent society and getting worse every year. There is more need for self defense and personal gun ownership today than perhaps at any other time in American history.

If you want to live somewhere without guns you may want to consider leaving the U.S. because if the government succeeds in removing our second amendment rights it won't be long before they remove most of the rest of them as well. I guess Bush has already got the ball rolling for you with the Patriot Act and so forth. Door's open for you to combine forces with Cheney-Bushco and destroy the bill of rights entirely.

That's what we really want isn't it? Isn't it?

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» RE: Buy your magazines while you can Posted by: White middleclass male
» flame baiting or what? Posted by: thistleblower
» RE: NOT flame baiting Posted by: ateo
» RE: Paranoia Running Amok Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
I'll never understand why this is such a hot issue
Posted by: Boomerang on Jun 25, 2007 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me, the answer on gun control seems really simple: treat guns like cars. You can own just about any kind of car you want, excluding ridiculous speedsters which aren't street legal (sawed-off shotguns, automatics), but to drive that car, you've got to get a license and register your vehicle. Why can't we just do the same with guns? Constitutionally, you've the right to bear arms, so unless anyone honestly thinks passing an amendment to repeal the 2nd amendment is actually viable, could we just stop talking about banning guns? Just take that off the table, it's silly. So now we have a society where you're allowed to have a gun, aren't there some obvious safety regulations we should have?

Gun owners willingly submit to strong rules when traveling via airplane (gun, unloaded, in a locked box, with the ammunition kept in a separate locked box). Why not just tell them this: look, you can have your gun, but we'd like to keep it on record that you have a Glock .40 and we'd like to keep the serial number on file as well as a single spent round for ballistic forensic purposes. That way, if there's a crime committed, we can track down the gun quickly (use a computer database of those rounds, you know we could do it) and start from a logical place, the registered owner. If he or she has reported it stolen, that's another place to start.

I just don't understand what gets people so emotional about this. Simple problem, easy answer. People just puff it up with all this bluster about people taking other people's guns away (kind of sounds like eminent domain, doesn't it? only with land instead of guns) and suddenly, it's so emotional that no one can think straight. "You just want me to register my gun so you can take it from me in the future! And I'm not taking some education class, that's a restriction on my rights!" No, Jimbo, it's like getting a driver's license: you pay a tiny fee, take a safety course, and you get on the road. What's so hard about that?

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» OH SHIT...Prophit! You've been DEBUNKED! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» THIS IS A BALD FACED LIE! Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Small arms Posted by: YogiBear
Where do these people live
Posted by: Ellie1 on Jun 25, 2007 6:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that they have thieves and murderers breaking into their houses at all hours? Seems to me they should take some of the money they spend on guns and ammunition and spend it on either locks, alarms and a big dog, or move to a safer neighborhood.

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» everywhere Posted by: White middleclass male
I believe the right to bear arms is granted
Posted by: Ellie1 on Jun 25, 2007 6:38 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to form a militia. Are you guys in the army? I think you two are equating your guns with your pr-ck. I am male, hear me roar with ammo too big to ignore. You guys are really a hoot. How about I trade you a gun for your penis? LOLOL

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» You are right, Acid- Posted by: Ellie1
» Guns don't vote Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Guns don't vote Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Guns don't vote Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: You Must Work For the IRS? Posted by: cmaciain
» Wholly Sexist Trope? Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Wholly Sexist Trope? Posted by: YogiBear
» Lol. "Liberal* reading." Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Citizen Militia... take action Posted by: makeadifference
The Brady Bill Did Not Ban Semi-Automatic Weapons
Posted by: Dallas Suz on Jun 25, 2007 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Brady bill would not have banned either of the weapons Cho used. Indeed both were sold during the time the Brady bill was in effect.

What the Brady bill limited was the magazine capacity to 10 rounds. The Walther .22 magazine is 10 rounds.

While the Brady Bill was in effect the standard non-law enforcement magazines for Glocks were 10 rounds. For the Glock Cho used the regular post ban magazine capacity is 13 rounds.

When gun control advocate make misstatements such as the above I feel I am being spoken to by the same sort of distorters and liars as got this country into the war in Iraq.

I tend to discount everything they have to say as either a lie or a distortion.

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The "majority", at least in some States, would ban freedom of speech, abortion,
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Jun 25, 2007 7:13 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
teaching science, rap music, pornography, etc. In fact, even in a republican system of government designed to curb the dangers of 'majority' rule the 'majority' of the Congress votes against the citizen's civil rights: whether it is the 'Military Commissions Act', 'Patriot Acts', expanded FISA laws, and so on. How much more damage would happen if we really allowed the 'majority' to rule? After 11-Sept I imagine the 'majority' would've invaded, or just bombed, the entire middle-east (look how bad we got w/out the majority's opinion). Or elected American Idol for President (though in this case an argument could be made.....) Remember:
IT IS NOT ABOUT GUN CONTROL, IT IS ABOUT CONTROL.
the government wants to control every facet of your life and wants complete domination on power, will, and choice.

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» Well said. (n/m) Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: Its not who owns the government... Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Who cares...
Posted by: ActiveResource on Jun 25, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With a hundreds of thousands of casualties in a war of choice about oil, dwindling heatlhcare, and failing schools....
nonsense about gun control is a nonissue.

Democrats are smart to ignore the neocon apologists who
write pointless diatribes about nonissues. Good on em.

It is the cowards, Republican and Democrat alike, who support the corporate war on middle-class America who are the problem. As long as these sociopaths have control of our nation... "gun-control" is irrelevant. We should be more concerned with real problems...

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guns kill-duh
Posted by: edith on Jun 25, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"We therefore support the right to bear arms, but not to bear arms designed for no other purpose than to take another person's life."

This "professor" of psychology and psychiatry's bottom line quoted above is the "brilliant" conclusion above, in a fantasy speech he writes for Democrats eager to be President.

Now, any "arms" that can kill a person can usually kill an animal. (Granted, a machine gun usually isn't used in hunting, but most criminals don't use machine guns). However, if you assume that hunters don't use handguns, what the good professor has proposed is banning of handguns.

Is that what reform the prof wants the Dems to run on, as crime rates, especially murder, are taking an upward tick and solve- murder rates in urban areas are plunging down, down, down?

I think it would take Ed Gillespie, Dan Bartlett or Karl Rove or any other GOP strategist with an IQ over 100 about five seconds to figure this out and about five minutes more to have the outline of a commericial ready to go to expose the goal of Democrats is to ban handguns. I don't think most Democratic politicians, urban or rural, want to outright ban handguns, because unlike the genius professor that Alternet discovered in that academic galaxy known as Cleveland, many Democrats do own handguns so that in an emergency they can yes, kill a certain kind of human being known as a rapist, robber, or killer. That is how quite sane people act and feel before Murderer Cho blasted his way into ignominy and how they act and feel after the homicidal little brat blasted himself into oblivion.

How's zat for "neural association" PROfessor?

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» RE: guns kill-duh Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: worry about your own family first Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: guns kill-duh? Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Guns vs. Fear
Posted by: CybScryb on Jun 25, 2007 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a life-long Republican who has somehow managed to not vote for a Republican presidential candidate since 1976. Most of the time, I vote for a moderate Democrat or liberal Republican in the local, state and House and Senate races.

But any tampering with the Constitution and the rights engendered is the only thing going on in this country that truly frightens me. Perhaps it's because I grew up in the rural environment described in the article and only moved to a more dense, urban environment less than a decade ago. But the fact remains that our county sheriff could reach the furthest reaches of his jurisdiction in the late '80's to mid-'90's in about the same time the Las Vegas Metro Police can reach a local address in a time of emergency.

What I would rather see is that the states which are most heavily tilted in favor of the maximum amount of gun control be allowed to "go all the way" with their laws and those states which are most opposed to gun control, be allowed to go their way. Then if you don't like guns, you can move to a state with no access to guns, and if you prefer guns in your life, you'll have some choices. I'd advocate the same for abortion rights, gay rights and all else. I'm stuck regardless because my over-riding priority for privacy means that I support the right of women to be free from meddling by freaks and weirdo's in her personal medical choices and the rights of all to be free from meddling in their bedrooms (or kitchen tables, spas, etc.) by the same freaks and weirdo's.

I own a number of weapons that fall into the assault category since I collect weaponry from throughout history. The saddest part of collecting is to see that at no time in recorded and collectible history can we find an era where weapons were not undergoing a constant state of improvement by humans. It is my intent, to continue collecting these weapons, to maintain them, preserve them and to fire them for recreation and if need be, self-defense.

In the end, I fear that well-intentioned disarmament of the populace will leave us exposed to the wanton disregard of basic human rights by people like our current administration, who think nothing of torture, unlawful imprisonment and secrecy. Are those the only people we want to leave with weapons?

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» RE: Guns vs. Fear Posted by: cmaciain
2nd ammendment is the right to revolt
Posted by: cbrislain on Jun 25, 2007 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 2nd ammendment was never really a right to own a gun so you could protect yourself from the crackheads, terrorists, and child molesters that allegedly roam the streets. (I hear they eat your brains!) The purpose of the 2nd ammendment was to allow for a popular revolt, by the popular militias of the states, should circumstances necessitate such action. Of course, with modern weaponry, new "non-lethal" crowd suppression methods, and an all-pervasive spectacle to keep the bleary-eyed masses in a video-induced trance, the likelihood of anything happening is quite slim, especially with militias becoming increasingly alienated against liberatory movements as gun control becomes equated with the kind of feel-good politics of today's democratic lousy excuse for a left. Sadly, people have gotten so caught up on clinging to their handguns that they fail to notice as their freedoms are curtailed, and their options for recourse diminish day by day.

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» RE: More disturbing things.. Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
As for theheading...
Posted by: freedom38 on Jun 25, 2007 9:22 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I know this is just a minor point, but I'm a democrat, and I'm not chicken when it comes to gun control. I resent that you assume that a position that is held by the heads of the Dem. Party is held by everyone who is a Democrat.

Thank you.

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Guns? Yes!
Posted by: Truth2 on Jun 25, 2007 9:28 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I learned as a student that citizens may use guns. It is in the Constitution. I learned it as an academic exercise. Somewhere along the line I learned how to use a handgun when I lived in a dangerous area of the city. I have never needed to use it, and gave it away to a friend years ago.

HOWEVER:
The government we have today is approaching tyranny. To pass a law that would take away my right to fight against my unlawful government would be more than foolish. I now have taken steps to protect myself.

Shouldn't you, too?

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» Of, by, and for the people, Bear. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Of, by, and for the people, Bear. Posted by: ReallyBearish
» RE: Guns? Yes! Posted by: cmaciain
2nd Ammendment and all the Peoples Rights are Important
Posted by: billdake@sbcglobal.net on Jun 25, 2007 9:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A majority of states already have "Right to Carry" laws and their violent crime is down, so guns by themselves do not cause crime. I for one would welcome "Right to Carry" in California. The best thing for me about it would be that I would not need to "carry", because no one would know if I did or not. Although citizens, highly trained in firearms especially handguns would be a formidible anti-terrorist force. The recent shootings at Virginia Tech University could have been cut short at the source by properly trained "Right to carry " citizens. Some of the teachers were gun owners, if they had access it might have ended differently.

To see why the 2nd Ammendment is necessary, just look at Iraq. The bad guys have the guns and citizens live in terror, while the gangs fight it out. We have gangs with guns too, I prefer to keep the 2nd Ammendment.

If you make a law against something, you drive it underground, increase it's value and make it available for the criminal element (think drugs). Bad guys have no problem getting guns. You can get old clunky hand guns to machine guns and anything in between for the going price. It's better to keep guns legal, because the police can controll and regulate the situation much better.

Bad laws like the War on Drugs have much more to do with the creation of crime than guns. Most of our violent crime is caused by illegal drug profits, end the war and you eliminate most gun violence. We need to remember what Shane told us, "a gun is simply a tool, no better or worse than the person who uses it".

Everyone is invited to partcipate in SF's July 4, "Freedom Road", where you can celebrate freedom by running or walking for your cause. This year it benefit's Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. These are ex-Drug Warriors who are telling the truth about the War on Drugs and are working to end it. If you have an issue like Gun Controll or whatever, you can pin your message, using good taste (no abortion pics,etc) on your back. Go to www.PeopleEvents.org for info.

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As usual, most of you clowns don't get it.
Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jun 25, 2007 10:24 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This gun issue is actually a form of quasi-religion, and like a religion, this is all "revealed truth". Opponents are in league with the devil and must be destroyed.

There's a reason Democratic politicians can't deal with this issue, and it ain't logic or truth. It isn't easy dealing with religious nut cases who believe anything that their priests of the NRA tell them.

Remember Al Gore? He lost his home state because the NRA told the gun idiots that he was going to confiscate their weapons. Al Gore had a 100 percent NRA voting record. I guess that wasn't good enough for the bean brains.

And then there's the case of Michael Bellesiles who wrote ARMING AMERICA. His book demonstrated that gun ownership was limited in the early days of the USA and that the gun culture did not rise until the fire arms technology allowed for fast loading, reliable, and available weapons produced by mass production. This occured in the Civil War period. The guns of the Revolutionary war were hand made, hard to come by, and unreliable. Military leaders of the time considered that the bayonette was as important as the gun itself, and guns and powder were always in short supply.

And by the way, hunting in 1790 was not a common practice among the common folks. Most of the forests were being cut down around settlements, and other than the wealthy, most people didn't have the luxury of travelling to hunting grounds or hunting preserves. People living along the fringes of the wilderness could hunt and trap, but that was a minority, just as most people that live in cities today aren't hunters.

Since this attacked the religion of the gun wachos, making a myth out of the minute man and old betzy, they proceeded to take him out. Never mind that the guy was a gun nut himself. He was forced out of his job at Emery University based on some minor statistical errors in his book, lost his awards that the book had won, and then forced him to leave the country, publishing his picture on the internet as if he were a criminal. This is how the NRA defends the FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT of free speech.

And in case you think that questionable statistics in a book should be punished severely, note that the author of the book MORE GUNS, LESS CRIME couldn't come up with his statistical sources, having lost them in a "computer crash". I guess it was ok to lie for the NRA just as it's ok to lie for religion.

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Having your rights and eating them
Posted by: Ellen Remore on Jun 25, 2007 10:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it remarkable that the people who've sat on their hands complacently and watched Bush systematically demolish every facet of the First Amendment are the very same idiots who never stop insisting that the Second Amendment was carried down by Moses from Mt. Sinai? Apparently, slippery slopes put under our most fundamental freedoms are no problem, as long as the government lets them amass all the firepower their infantile little hearts desire. Because for reasons that continue to escape me, there seem to be vast areas of this country in which the residents' lives revolve around alcohol, tobacco, and firearms.

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COME ON!!! THINK!!! THINK!!! THINK!!! USE YOUR HEAD!!!
Posted by: alicelillie on Jun 25, 2007 10:32 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am afraid I have to pull the Left on the carpet this morning. So to speak. Obviously I am not in a position to haul anyone on the carpet. But if I were, I'd say:

Where is your *brain?* Out to lunch???

You claim to be for civil liberties, you rail against marijuana laws and laws regulating speech. If you saw the AOL news a few days back you are probably mad because those young men had their cars taken and destroyed with no due process because they drag raced.

But for guns, you want the government to rule us with an iron hand!!! Don't you see that criminals will ignore all your silly paperwork and rules? This is cliche, but it's true. C'mon, think!!!

A robber is going to steal a gun and rob, and he or she will do it where victims are most likely to be disarmed, near a school! Just because of the rules!

Well, I'll skip all the "cliche" reasons.

How can people believe in Second Amendment guaranteed rights, but with restrictions? Either it is a *RIGHT* or it isn't. They are making it into a *privilege* by requiring all these licenses, etc.

But here is the real issue. A gun is a *thing.* A piece of metal that cannot do anything on its own. You have the right to own *things* or you don't. If they can ban or regulate guns, they can ban or regulate knives, hammers, pitchforks, ballbats, you name it.

And they do: drugs, cars, a number of items are strictly regulated.

This isn't freedom. It isn't equality of worth of each person.

It is a system where some people are *BETTER* than others. Higher class and lower class. Government people (higher class) are the deciders, while the rest of us (lower class) obey. Government people decide which of us may have a gun. They force us to give name, SSN, address and other facts in order to grovel for their *PERMISSION* to buy or sell an inanimate object.

They are *BETTER* than we are, so we grovel to them and beg. They know so very much more, you see, than the guy in the mirror about whether you are qualified.

And, if some of these leftists (and neo-cons too; make no mistake, they have no respect for the Second Amendment either because they too believe government people are *BETTER,* and if you don't believe me try putting the wrong plant in your cigarette) want to ban guns altogether, watch out!!!

Police state, here we come!!! I won't belabor that, but imagine what they would have to do to eracidate all guns. They would have to nationalize or ban gun manufacturers, and close gun retailers. Imagine the bureaucracy, and guess who'd pay the most.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!!! Do you want freedom or don't you?????

Or, better stated, do you want to become free or do you want abject slavery??? Take gun control to its logical conclusion, and I have a hunch you might begin to agree with the fierce Bush opponent, radical libertarian anti-Bush Alice here!!!

See my blog: http://www.alicelillieandher.blogspot.com

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The NRA Isn't That Pro-Gun
Posted by: alicelillie on Jun 25, 2007 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The NRA is not really that pro-gun; they recently teamed up with the Democrats to get stricter federal gun legislation passed. They consider gun ownership as a *privilege* bestowed by politicians and bureaucrats, not a *right* guaranteed by the Constitution.

Bush is no different, so if you think Bush is pro-gun, forget it; he ain't.

You want a pro-gun organization, here's one: JPFO.org.

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Have the Left Buy Guns to Change The Laws..!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jun 25, 2007 10:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a different take on Gun Control than most would dare aspouse to..

You see just as with the reality of the War over Drugs, is not really the War on Drugs, but about who controls the import and distribution of Drugs, as we know Ronald Reagan and Bill Casey and the CIA and even the DEA where huge drug dealers...to support the Contras and also during the Vietnam War and I suspect greatly as well now in Afghanistan, the same is true for Gun Control..!

It about who is buying the Guns..!

Were Liberals and those on the Left and Democrats in huge number buying guns and rifles and shot guns in particular, then you'd see Bills supporting gun control and restrictions for gun possession flying like Congressmen and their Mistresses on a Friday in Washington..!

So what I am saying is Liberals should start buying guns not hand guns you can't defend The Constitution with a hand gun but multi shot short barrel assault shot guns, and AR-15's Bushmasters, AK-47's and SK's, Mack-5's, 30-6 semi automatics..

Now if you are that against having a gun in your house Don't Buy any Bullets, they won't know if you bought or didn't buy bullets but if they see especially now with their plans to establish a Dictatorship under NSPD-51, and with the huge unpopularity of both this Administration and Congress as well that Gun Rifle sales especially, are doubling you'll see Gun Bills coming out their lying asses..in Congress..!

Right now as it is the right wing knows they are best armed and the left is not..!

So it's the Right Wing arming itself, while as much as this seems nuts and sucks I am no big gun fan myself at all, if we the left and liberals all started buying guns you'd see how fast the gun laws would change..!

Also how about all these millions of new Americans about to be given Amnesty the day after they get Citizenship can they then go buy a gun based upon their one day check as to who they are or say they are..?

Nobody has addressed this yet have they..?


TJ Peace..

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Learn From Poland: When Martial Law Was Declared - All Guns Confiscated
Posted by: freethink7 on Jun 25, 2007 11:06 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't allow this to happen in our country....lessons from Poland:

"Nothing has so clearly demonstrated the reasons for the Second Amendment and the reasons it must be defended since Dec. 14, 1981, when en. Jaruzelski declared martial law in Poland, placed all press under total government control, and declared all firearms licenses and gun registration certificates void -- requiring the licensed owners to turn in
their registered guns within 48 hours. Of course, since the government knew where every gun was -- except those in the hands of criminals -- they had no choice but to comply."

For Entire Article by Neal Knox:
LessonsPoland

If we are to remain a "free country" learn lessons from Poland.

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» The usual gun nut crap Posted by: ReallyBearish
Dear God....
Posted by: jaby on Jun 25, 2007 12:05 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every neo-conservative fascist jerk christian extremist in this country owns a gun, and yet you are willing to let go of your right to own a weapon? Are you serious? As long as Pat Robertson and his minions own guns, you can bet your ass I'll own one too.

Sheep to the slaughter, people, sheep to the slaughter. Don't let them fool you into thinking for one minute that banning guns is going to make you safer. It's not. Criminals have no issue with breaking the laws and gun control will just force gun ownership into the blackmarket and make it more dangerous, much like it has with drugs.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the gun control nonsense must be coming from right-wing extremist trying to get all the "soft" liberals to give up their weapons. Many democrats have been had on this issue. Don't be one of them.

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» RE: Dear God.... Posted by: Elfwyn
» RE: Dear God.... Posted by: cmaciain
Look
Posted by: helenb1azes on Jun 25, 2007 12:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm all for gun control, but we have an administration that is rife with cronyism, corruption and out-and-out crimes. Gun control can take a back seat until we retrieve our Constitutional rights and impeach and try this gang of crooks! Gun control, right now, is near the bottom of my list.

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» YES!! Posted by: vwaites
no new gun laws are needed!!!
Posted by: vwaites on Jun 25, 2007 12:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just enforce the ones in place and close the loopholes that allows tragedys like Virgina Tech to happen.

This is one of those "hot button" issues that will never be resolved either extremes. One side wants ALL weapons legal. The other wants NONE. Most Americans are in the middle and want it REGULATED. We don't want armor piecing bullets in civilian hands, or machine guns, for that matter. But we do want the chance to defend ourselves against those who would get weapons illeagally (where most crimals get them anyway, and would continue to do so if they were banned).

People will kill one another with something if that is what they want to do. Be it a gun or any random blunt object. Hey Alternet! At this juncture in history, do not need to be alienating the middle to support a fringe cause. We have bigger fish to fry:

LIKE AN ILLEGAL WAR. GLOBAL WARMING.

remember those?

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How are you going to protect yourself frok Blackwater goons?
Posted by: hot karlrove on Jun 25, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's right, how are you going to do it? Have a rally and PROTEST?

Yell, "Hey Hey Ho Ho Blackwater's gotta go"?

Anybody remember Blackwater goons confiscating legal firearms form their legal owners?

Blackwater is the defacto army of the Xtian right. They have multiple bases in the USA with full armories.

Give up your guns and y'all will meet the fate of many of my brethren in Salvador, death by death squad.

Blackwater will be the death squads.

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ny thoughts FWIW
Posted by: Rod on Jun 25, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a progressive, and moderate. Right now, I vote mostly democrat. I will vote for who ever I think is will do the best job.

I live alone, in the country. I own many tools, and guns are included. I used to belong to the NRA, but did not renew recently, because of who they support. In the future, I may belong again.

I enjoy shooting a pistol for the challenge. There is nothing wrong with that. I also target and trap shoot, again for enjoyment and challenge.

I hunt and see nothing wrong with that either. I do consume all game. Does this make me a gun nut? If it does than I am guilty. I fish too. The tool of choice there is also lethal (to fish). I guess this makes me a fishing nut. I drive, the tool there is also potentially lethal, ask any motorcyclist. So I guess I am a car nut too.

I occasionally have to dispatch an animal, sometimes a crazed dumped dog, or possible rabid coyote. I typically use the tool called the shotgun for this. I hope I never have to deal with the 2 legged variety, but if necessary I will. However that is NOT why I have guns.

The fact that some my many tools can kill a person, to me is irrelevant. Many tools, from a chain saw to an ice pick may be used to kill. I see no need to give up any of them because criminals choose to misuse them. We have laws, police, judges and prisons for that.

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» RE: ny thoughts FWIW Posted by: dover23
» RE: ny thoughts FWIW Posted by: Rod
» RE: ny thoughts FWIW Posted by: dover23
» RE: ny thoughts FWIW Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: ny thoughts FWIW Posted by: Ian MacLeod
Support for human rights means all the human rights
Posted by: Walt K on Jun 25, 2007 1:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a progressive Democrat. I consider myself progressive because I believe we all have many inherent rights not yet enumerated by our constitution, and I want to see our enumerated rights progressively expanded. The right to make a living with dignity, the right to privacy, the right to self-defense are examples. My right to bear arms is not dependent on the second amendment, I have an inalienable right to self defense against other individuals and my (currently criminal) government.

Stop being reactionary and trying to limit certain rights just because you think you don't want to use them. They all belong to all of us. I'm not gay, but I stand up and speak out for GLBT rights. You want to reduce violent crime? Set a level economic playing field with equal opportunity for all. Conduct a non-interventionist foreign policy and not one based on thuggery and corporate profit. Let people protect themselves responsibly. If the six years of the Bush administration haven't shown you that government cannot be trusted, you are beyond hope.

In my rural area, crime is held down just by the knowledge that most of the homesteads at the end of rural driveways are armed. We have 28 deputies and an elected Sheriff to patrol 5,000 square miles and 40,000 folks. To try to increase their numbers to anything approaching sufficiency to "protect" us all would cost me far more than my trusty Winchester Model 12 shotgun.

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GOOD FOR THOSE DEMOCRATS... THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN AND SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTION LIKE...
Posted by: poppop_schell on Jun 25, 2007 1:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
CONGRESSMAN RON PAUL DOES. YES, THE CONSTITUTION IS STILL THE FOUNDATIONAL LAW OF THE LAND EVEN THOUGH BUSH DOESN'T THINK SO.

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Banning Guns like Banning Drugs
Posted by: dbatterman on Jun 25, 2007 3:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all those who support strict confiscation laws, just remember how successful the ban on illegal drugs has been. Were we a country like England that had low firearm ownership before their bans were enacted, it might be easier, but you cannot avoid the intrusion of a black market.
They are around and always will be. Let's enforce the laws we already have.
And as an aside, guns as penis extensions are nothing compared to the market for Hummers, luxury "townhomes", and CEO salary packages. Our whole commercial culture has gone beyond "keeping up with the Jones's" and is now "beating the Jones's mercilessly with our conspicuous wealth displays."

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Glad to see I'm not the only one..
Posted by: Techubus on Jun 25, 2007 3:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.. who is not a supporter of more gun control. Give this one up. The idea that it is liberal/progressive to ban or severely restrict gun ownership is a lost cause. Virtually every one of my friends is anti-republican and Bush. They all lean towards the left, and yet, they all believe in the right to bare arms. Many of us practice that right as well.

To all the gun control zealots let this be a warning. You make banning guns a campaign issue and you will lose. Republicans are very weak right now, but by making this an issue, you only serve to strengthen them.

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Which of you has actually fended off a criminal attack?
Posted by: wolfdaughter on Jun 25, 2007 3:27 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to own guns to hunt, fine. If you feel safer in your home with guns, fine.

But let's get real here, how many of you have ever had your homes broken into, or have been attacked on the street, and used a gun to fend these off? In my 61 years of life I have NEVER faced either situation, and I live in a mixed neighborhood with a lot of diversity in terms of socioeconomic status, ethnicity, etc. I do NOT live in a rich, gated community. Moreover, I do not allow my life to be curtailed. There is one area of Tucson that I avoid at night, but other than that, I go anywhere I want to go, when I want to go there.

I've been the victim of four breakins, and all occurred during the day when I was gone from home. Owning a gun would have made no difference since I wasn't at home to use it. Most home robbers do their thievery when they believe that the owners will be gone. And since my ex screwed shut all our windows (no picture windows, obviously), and since we have deadbolts on both doors, no more breakins in 15 years.

I do NOT support taking guns away from law-abiding citizens.

I DO support gun control of basically the same sort as drivers' licenses. In other words, you have to pass a test which shows that you understand firearm safety, how to load and unload a gun, how often guns need cleaning to be in good working order, etc. And be registered with the state you live in as a gun-owner. Not what kind of guns you have or how many, just that you are a gun-owner.

As others have pointed out, our government is currently in the hands of fascists and all of our personal gun ownership hasn't done anything to prevent that.

I would also point out that armies and police departments are organized and trained to a degree much beyond that of the average citizen. If our government decided to use the Army or the National Guard, let's say, to impose martial law and to turn our president into a dictator for life, armed citizens wouldn't be able to stop this, because it would take some time to organize and to equal the training that the Army and other military groups have. And said fascist government would be watching out for attempts to organize and train.

As for knowing where to find citizens who have guns, if you belong to the NRA, I hate to break this to you, but you are already registered. The NRA surely maintains a computerized database of members, and any such database is hackable. So even though we don't register guns now, for the most part, you NRA members will be the first ones targeted, should our government ever decide to confiscate individual citizens' guns! Think about that!

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Questions for gun nuts and gun control freaks.
Posted by: HughScott on Jun 25, 2007 4:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For gun nuts against registration: Every year I register my car in California and receive license plates for proof but the DMV doesn't control the vehicle. So why are guns any different?

Here's a question for gun control advocates: If the federal government outlawed automatic weapons like the states do oversized big rigs, what purpose would be served by controlling handguns and rifles?

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Be Responsible for it
Posted by: marid on Jun 25, 2007 4:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see myself as a liberal and progressive. I wish the deer hunters luck because I don't want to blast Bambi with my auto.

All I ask is that anyone who owns a gun, I have one, be responsible for it 100% of the time.

Mandatory sentencing for gun crimes makes more sense than for a joint.

I just don't get owning large quantities of weapons. But that is my choice. Yours may be different, just be responsible with it and I have no problem.

Oh, and we might need them to finally oust the Emperor and Darth Vader from office. Remember they make their own rules and laws, called Marshall law.

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» RE: Be Responsible for it Posted by: TheEagle
» RE: Be Responsible for it Posted by: Ian MacLeod
Happiness is a warm gun...
Posted by: may261989 on Jun 25, 2007 4:48 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to see gun ownership in America compulsory. Everyone over the age of 6 is to own a gun and carry it with them all the time - safety's off.
Let the shooting begin!!! Its in your constitution after all and if you dont buy that argument just think of those dastardly rapists and burglars who are waiting for you to get rid of your guns so they can rape and pillage their way into your home.
Hopefully y'all will all wipe yourselves out and the rest of the us outside of America will have one less bunch of pyschos to worry about.

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» RE: Happiness is a warm gun... Posted by: TheEagle
Gun control won't work
Posted by: ikonoklast on Jun 25, 2007 5:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
any better than prohibition or the war on drugs. The truth is, whether or not you believe people have the right to weapons, those who strongly believe in their interpretation of the right guaranteed in the 2nd Amendment will not give up their weapons willingly. Gun control measures as envisioned will only criminalize a large group of previously law-abiding citizens. And since we have already seen the disastrous results of prohibition and the drug war, do we really want to precipitate another ban that will only serve to diminish liberty and further increase the police-state mentality that already pervades our country?

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Ummm...
Posted by: opeluboy on Jun 25, 2007 5:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...what are they not chicken about?

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Northerner
Posted by: northerner on Jun 25, 2007 6:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's clear from outside the country that the second amendment must be "special", since Americans don't seem to fight too hard for any of the others. As a gun-owning but sensible Canadian, I'll just keep my head down until the shooting stops sometime in the 22nd century.

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Guns+Government=Evil
Posted by: throck on Jun 25, 2007 7:47 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only two types of people support gun bans. Those who want to be the dictator, and those unfortunate souls stupid enough to believe the lies of those who want to be the dictator. My question for those who want to take my guns is this: "What are you planning to do that will make me want to shoot you?" The goons and the government will never give them up so the best that the rest of us can hope for is an equal chance at survival. Please answer my question. Thank you.

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Gun crime will not be solved until we deal with the poverty and the wretchedness of capitalism
Posted by: Stancel on Jun 26, 2007 1:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
~ Stancel Spencer

^me

check out my blog

stancelspencer.wordpress.com

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Half of gun owners are Dems and indies--and stay out of my gun safe, please.
Posted by: benEzra on Jun 26, 2007 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Half of gun owners are Dems and indies (including me), and I would appreciate it if you would stay the hell out of my gun safe, please. Thanks.

Having said that, the author might be somewhat less shrill if he were a bit more informed.

He refers to "the Brady Act, which banned the sale of semiautomatic weapons." Actually, the Brady Act was a waiting period and optional background check on the purchase of handguns, that was replaced by a mandatory point-of-sale background check on all firearms in the late '90s. President Clinton signed that, NOT Bush the Younger.

The author is obviously confusing the Feinstein law of 1994-2004 (the "assault weapon" bait-and-switch) with the Brady Act. But it did NOT "ban the sale of semiautomatic weapons"; it merely required minor cosmetic changes to some civilian guns, proscribed marketing of post-ban guns under any of 19 scary names, and raised prices on full-capacity pistol magazines (but not rifle mags).

I own a ban-era civilian AK-47 lookalike, made in 2002 and purchased in 2003. As required by the Feinstein law, it has a smooth muzzle crown and the little lug on the bottom of the gas block is ground off. See photo here. Was that worth losing the House, Senate, and at least one presidency over? And NO, that's not a real AK-47. You know "semiautomatic" means NOT automatic, right? And that all rifles combined account for less than 3% of homicides, right?

The author continues, "They didn't mention that in the decade or so after the passage of that act, 100,000 felons lost their right to bear arms, but not a single hunter lost that right."

Umm....the right of felons to bear arms was revoked by the Gun Control Act of 1968, which 5 minutes of Googling would have revealed. That law, and the NICS point-of-sale background check, are still in force.

And what's this about hunters? Only 1 in 5 American gun owners is a hunter; like most gun owners, my wife and I DON'T HUNT. So spare me the Bradyite "gun ownership is for hunting" line, please.

The author also invokes the "Beltway snipers" as a reason to outlaw more lawfully owned civilian guns. But, pray tell, what sort of gun bans would have affected those two losers? Every shot they made was within the capability of an 18th-century flintlock (the furthest shot was ~88 yards), never mind a high-powered sniper-style deer rifle. And they fired what, one shot every couple of days?

Here's the thing. Dropping the ban-more-guns thing was a BIG part of winning back Congress in 2006; Jim Webb, Jon Tester, and a number of others would have never won had they run on a ban-more-guns platform instead of a pro-rights message. Ditto for Ted Strickland, Bob Casey, etc.

The "Dems'll-take-yer-guns" meme is dying; let it stay the hell DEAD, dude. Dems and indies will thank you for it.

----------------
Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What? (written in 2004, largely vindicated in 2006, IMO)

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Where in the heck do you people live
Posted by: Ellie1 on Jun 26, 2007 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that you have criminals, rapists, and murderers roaming around? Doesn't your town have any police? Do you own a phone to call someone? Don't you have locks on your house and car? Why do you venture into unsafe areas?

I am no spring chicken, and have never been threatened or assaulted. However my father did accidentally shoot himself (in the hand) with an old ww2 pistol that had an unknown bullet in the chamber. And he was not defending himself or anyone else. You gun freaks are really paranoid. If you have been threatend in the area you live in, you need to spend your money on a safer environment instead of guns.

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» RE: Where in the heck do you people live Posted by: makeadifference
Toxic: Leave It Alone!
Posted by: BlueKansas on Jun 26, 2007 7:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The issue *is* toxic. People who worry about gun policy tend to be single-issue voters. If you leave guns off the agenda, they will probably stay home that election. If they vote, they will vote Republican.

Democrats DO NOT have an electoral mandate. It is going to be 51 to 49 for someone. Let's not call out the gunners by bringing up an issue that we CAN'T WIN.

Blue in Kansas

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Drew Westen, you need to regain YOUR moral compass.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jun 27, 2007 10:01 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Drew Westen, you need to regain YOUR moral compass.
Democrats SHOULD fall silent or reverse their stand.
Reasons:
1. In all of those Holocaust movies I have seen, one fact is
very noticeable: Jews who owned firearms lived a lot
longer than Jews who did not own firearms. Who is
protecting me from the government? Especially if George
W. Bush manages to declare himself "president for life" and
cancels elections? Who will be the "Jews" this time?
2. Polygamy is a 400 Million year old tradition and instinct
among chordates. WE are chordates. Polygamy ended
when gunpowder was invented. We know the real
reason why you want gun control. You want to re-invent
polygamy.
3. Seung-Hui Cho should have been stopped long before
his rampage and put in a psychiatric hospital. The law in
Virginia was at fault in not putting Seung-Hui Cho into a
psychiatric hospital well before his rampage. Your use of
Seung-Hui Cho as an excuse for your polygamy campaign
is despicable. Seung-Hui Cho deserved to receive proper
medical mental health care. As a Democrat, you should be
campaigning for free mental health care.
4. There is a written exam that can sort out individuals like
Seung-Hui Cho. It is called the MMPI [Minnesota
Multiphasic Personality Inventory]. It can and should be
given in mass to high school students. 4% of all people are
psychopaths/sciopaths/sociopaths. The rest of us deserve
to be warned who they are so that we can protect
ourselves.

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erm
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Jun 28, 2007 10:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You repeatedly asked for numbers that are irrelevant. I could say that 300000 people died from smoking last year, but that number means nothing when measuring trends. The percent changes are the relevant statistic. Either you deny the accuracy of the data, in which case it is on you to prove the data is false, or you're the one who is full of it.

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This Democrat knows that gun control causes Democrats to lose, lose, lose. It needs to be dropped.
Posted by: jlbraun on Jun 28, 2007 3:58 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This registered Democrat, Buddhist, supporter of singlepayer healthcare and gay marriage also has a civilian AK-47,combat shotgun, several thousand rounds of ammunition in his basement, and a permit to carry a pistol wherever he goes. It's not out of "compensating for something" (how utterly juvenile), or anything else, it's the idea that In Order To Help Others I Must Not Be Helpless.

Gun control has caused Democrat losses in every election since 1994, and now that we're FINALLY back on top, people want to go and try to go after guns AGAIN.

Even Bill Clinton knows it!

"The fights I fought... cost a lot --the fight for the assault-weapons ban cost 20 members their seats in Congress." --William Jefferson Clinton

We as Democrats will NEVER get a truly progressive agenda implemented if we continue to listen to the gun-banner nutbags like Drew Westen that won't let go of the gun control albatross.

And if we had a real pro-gun Democrat candidate for POTUS like Richardson who has a permit to carry a pistol AND we kept the anti-gun nutcases from driving the Democrats off a cliff AGAIN, then we can finally put this thing to rest.

Americans, Democrats, Republicans, and Independents DO NOT WANT GUN CONTROL. It needs to go the way of Jim Crow, literacy tests, and the poll tax. Democrats that support it are finding themselves swiftly shuffled out of the Democrat tent, and deservedly so.

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It's not the guns but America's love for violence and more violence that is killing it.
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 28, 2007 7:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until America begins to stop resorting to force/violence as the panacea to all problems whether we're talking about a simple dispute or solving an energy crisis, this country is heading to the point of requiring a MAJOR SOUL CLEANSING !

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TheEagle
Posted by: TheEagle on Jun 29, 2007 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know where "Drew" thinks he or she is, or what planet he or she is living on. But, GUN CONTROL DOES NOT WORK, an that is a fact. The only people Gun Control laws effect are they that will abide by the laws. A felon may not be able to buy a gun at a store. So he goes an buys one on the streets, an in most cases quicker than he could have at the store. An the "right to keep and bear arms" is still part of The Bill of Rights, an the last part of it, that says "shall not be INFRINGED", makes every gun control "law"(an I use that term loosely, for it is a regulation in reality), not worth the paper it is written on, because it takes away a right that was given to us by The Bill of Rights. You let the government take away one right an they will not stop until they take them all. I would rather have a gun an not need it, than need it an not have it. Thank you for listening to my prattle. that is all I have to say for now.

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