This is a gut wrenching article dipicting the ingrained racism that exists to this day unchanged and it seems unchallenged. I'm too depressed to think anymore. I'm going to bed. Amnesty my ass.

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...as he has done repeatedly.

The simple truth about who's fed up with mass immigration -- a landslide majority of Americans, NOT just right-wing extremists, are fed up with defacto open borders. And you can play games with the meaning of defacto open borders all you like, but that is what you propose.

It's people like YOU, Josh, who are in loud-mouthed extremist minority!

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Well for some reason that was AlterNet's weird take on it, after Kennedy, McCain & co. spent months writing it. Who's the "everyone" you refer to if a lot of the "everyone" was writing it? The poll figures you quote would seem to indicate broad (if rather lukewarm) support from the public for this sort of bill.

I'm reluctant to agree with the Straightjacket Express about much at this point, but he said the status quo is what amounts to amnesty. True enough.

A bill that was dubbed the "Comprehensive Destroy the Republican Party Act" by Rush Limbaugh got my immediate attention as possibly a good thing! But that he did so is a simple enough explanation for the bill's derailment: the Dittoheads can still sway some GOP senators. Surprise?

Protest came from the right, not the left, but I think many on the left found themselves unable to be enthusiastic about any bill Bush supported. Surprise? Lincoln said a broken clock is right twice a day, but it's easier to believe an adage than to believe GWB can possibly be right about anything.

The next prez will presumably be a less divisive figure than GWB and a bill very much like this one will be passed.

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There IS a "quiet riot" brewing, except that it isn't among people united by their skin color. It's brewing among those of us who recognize that there are already enough immigration laws on the books and that those laws aren't being enforced. It's brewing among those of us who are sick and tired of having our legitimate beliefs and common sense concerns (backed up by historical evidence or objective data) disparaged as being "racist," "xenophobic," "nationalistic," "fascist," etc. -- particularly when just about every other kind of dysfunctional type behavior in this country is cow-towed to by the Left. I have a word of my own for such irrational, self-hating behavior and apologias: Hesperophobia.

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the borders are not being enforced in a meaningful way. Once inside the country, apparently, anyone is free to work and live here as long as they'd like.

Heck, bring your whole family! We'll educate them, provide child care for them, and if you get sick just go to the E.R. where they have to help you even though you won't pay them and there is no way to punish you for your indebtedness because you don't have a social security number, aren't a U.S. citizen, don't give a shit, and in the absolute worst case scenario could simply scoot back across the border to avoid your debts and obligations.

Better to create databases hundreds of petabytes in size that contain every piece of personally identifiable information (name, social, addresses, jobs held, medical information, voting records, phone records, internet usage statistics) and force law abiding U.S. citizens to carry a "national ID card" than to enforce our borders and make a concerted effort to deport people here illegally.

Apparently the government thinks it's better to blanket the country in surveillance devices and track the movements of people who are citizens than it is to secure the borders and track the people who are criminals by virtue of the fact that they are here illegally in the first place.

I guess that's ultimately the goal, let illegal immigration get so completely out of control that after the next terrorist attack happens and it is tied to our open border policy the people will accept national ID cards, random check points, and even more pervasive domestic spying. Either that or is is a precursor to open borders and one government between the U.S./Canada/Mexico.

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Governor GW Bush promised immigration reform, that would treat Latinos with dignity and secure the border.

He has not delivered.

Typical.

Robert Chapman
Lansing, NY

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If the analysis of this article is correct - I think it is partly - then it goes to show that issues of both quantity and quality are at work in public opinion.

Let's say the value of the dormant voter, who doesn't partipate in political debate, is 1. So if, let us say, 150,000,000 dormant voters support a given political measure, then the value of support behind that measure is 150,000,000. Let us say an additional 20,000,000 energetic, vociferous activists also support the measure. For the sake of explanation, let us say the value of each of these activists' input in affecting the political process is 10, so thier total contribution of support adds up to a value of 200,000,000. The combined impact of the activists and the inert supporters adds up to a value of 350,000,000.

Now, on the other side of the given political issue, let us say there are 100,000,000 inert dissenters and 30,000,000 activist dissenters. The value of the input of the dormant group comes to 100,000,000 and the value of the input of the active group comes to 300,000,000, if we maintain for the activists on this side the value of 10 ascribed to the activists on the supporting side.

The values of input by the activists on each side (or every side, if it is a more complex debate, as all debates truly are, but we tend to cast social, political, and economic issues in a binary light) can be tweaked depending on how active and effective the activists are on the given issue (the more active these people are, the more likely they are to be effective).

This model does not factor in the formal power of legislators who have the final word in the decision-making process. Moreover, high-profile officials are vested with authority and they have access to a large pulpit in the persuasive process, which can be used to generate support and dissent, of both the inert (non-retaliatory) and active sort. But formally empowered elected politicians are usually concerned with re-election, so when potential voters take a significant interest in an issue, it is more likely that an elected politician's input will reflect the indirect input proffered by his or her constituents.

Non-elected officials are another matter because they are not answerable to public opinion when the public decides to give its opinion. Therefore non-elected officials are more likely to be dismissive of the public's views.

Also, we could consider the impact of certain activist figureheads who can establish the talking points of a given side of an issue, drumming up support or dissent and shaping the terms of debate in such a way as to create support or dissent.

My point is, it is entirely predictable that victory in a political squabble can go to the side with fewer, yet more active supporters. Some informal actors have a much greater value in the political process than others do because they are more involved. In short, if people care about an issue, they should make their support known in ways that might influence others to share that support, rather than only making their support known when pollsters give them a telephone call.

It boils down to this: You snooze, you lose.

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Pass the Bill and they will be legals.It will be good for the country. Anyway, we do not have any other choice for the 12 millions of people who are in the US.Do not pass the bill and we will get a no end problem.
Look after terrorists instead to try stop poor garderners.
It easy to understand and easy to do.
But you do not get it!

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IMHO, the real reason that the Immigration Reform Bill failed is that the real forces that be, want to leave things just as they are. Do they really want "guest workers" or "legal immigrants" to be paid decently, have healthy and safe working conditions? And what a convenient "scapegoat" for the Right Wing Nuts to get the masses all stirred up, then the specter of "illegal immigrants" who might be "terrorists"? Why aren't the employers hauled off to be jailed? Why aren't the growers who spray the fields while their illegal harvesters and cultivators are in the fields held accountable? When their housing, food and water are not adequate for farmworkers and their is no investigation or enforcement of employment, health and safety laws? When agricultural, domestic and hospitality industry employers don't pay their workers, were is the justice? No, the forces that be would rather keep it as it is. Any illegal worker who complains gets deported. The only other system more "cost effective" would be slavery. Which I am sure some would like to see because it would be cheaper and more stable.

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'A pragmatic majority' in the Senate wanted to pass thee immigration laws to address a real problem.
BS!
There were provisions in the bill to accellerate the establishment of the North American Union.

Wage suppression and loss of sovreighnty in support of multinational corporations was the purpose of the legislation.

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Until the USA raises tarriffs against some goods coming into this country and "tarriffs" against imported labor, we will see a decline in economic, political power of the citizen.

Tarriffs will stop the exit of USA manufactoring, and immigration tarriffs will stop the decline in wages and benefits of the American worker. If American business wants to hire an immigrant, illegal or legal, let them pay a tarriff to cover wages and benefits that the American worker looses.

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Sorry I don't want to read anything from those bigots. There are more reasonable people on the subject.

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This so-called "immigration reform" bill is too heavy to get off the ground. If it is passed in its present configuration it will go the way of "No Child Left Behind" and "The Patriot Act"--two bills that became law before they were carefully thought out. The main difficulty with the "Immigration Reform" bill is that it couples a new "guest worker" program with a path for present illegal immigrants to become legal. There should really be two bills--not an amalgamation. President Bush wants more "guest workers" to satisfy corporate demands for cheap labor. But our present H-2A and H-2B "guest worker" programs are abusive to the workers who are imported. Safeguards need to be in place for these programs before new workers are brought in. As for the path to legalization for the 12 million illegal immigrants already here, it needs to be streamlined so that these people will see the benefit of accepting the path offered (instead of remaining in the shadows), while still satisfying a sense of fairness in paying something in the way of fines and back taxes. Unfortunately, doing the right thing--de-coupling these two separate questions and fashioning a bill for each--will probably not gain either bill the votes it needs to pass. Partisans on either side will look on this strategy as a chance to "divide and conquer." My conclusion is that no real immigration reform will take place until Mr. Bush is out of office.

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Now, wait a minute. I've voted Democrat all my life. I'm not a bigot, a racist, or anything else. And I don't think I'm in a minority.
Illegals who are here have only committed a misdemeanor? What about those who are using other people's Social Security numbers, or other fake IDs? What about bypassing immigration laws on physical exams, etc.?
Saying "they just want jobs" is not a sufficient excuse. Do we intend to say, "They only want to work, so it's OK if they break the laws?" How many laws do they get to break? Is your position that some people are more equal than others?
At some point, people have to be responsible for their actions. People who want to be U.S. citizens must obey the laws of this country. (So do people who hire illegal workers.)
Not enforcing all of the provisions of the 1986 bill is what got us into this mess. Passing a bill like McCain-Kennedy, as it now stands, would make things worse, because no realistic provisions were made for enforcement.
By the way, isn't it rather racist to characterize these people as "gardeners." etc. ? Doesn't that assume that what some people really want is a permanent underclass of cheap labor?

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I deal with a lot of illegal immigrants at the community health center where I work. What strikes me is the fact that all of these people are employed, often working two or even three jobs in order to support themselves and their families; quite different from many if not most of the "legal" citizens I also see, many of whom are either already on disability or trying to get on it, often for fraudulent reasons. It certainly doesn't seem to me that the illegals are the ones "leaching" off society; indeed, they work and pay taxes without receiving many of the formal benefits of citizenship that the rest of us do. In a bizarre sense, they're actually funding the disability payments of many of the "legal" non-workers who clearly ARE leaching off the system. And as for those of you who get angry about how the illegals are using up health care resources without paying for them - ER services, for instance - keep in mind that in most states taxes are used directly to fund what's politely called "uncompensated care". My point is that these people ARE paying taxes. They're just not eligible for health insurance in most cases, due to their undocumented status.

In short, I think it's reasonable, and in some sense even fair, to find some way to accommodate those illegal immigrants who in many cases have been living, working, and paying taxes in the US for years. These do not strike me as people who commit crimes, they are clearly contributing to our economy in a significant way, and their children seem likely to assimilate well into our culture. Abruptly removing such a large number of people is likely to have more of a negative effect on the local economy where they live than most anti-immigration folks probably realize. And as for any children they have who've been born in the US, I'm pretty sure they CAN'T be deported - they're US citizens by birth, aren't they? What do the anti-immigration folks suggest there?

On the other hand, the fact that we've arrived at a total of 12 million illegal aliens at this point does suggest that we don't have very good control of our borders. This is where I agree with the "anti" crowd, I guess - we need to have some better sort of control over who comes in, particularly through that seemingly very porous southern border. Would a fence really be the answer? I doubt it, somehow - but there's a good case to be made that the future influx needs to be better controlled, somehow.

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What about the illegal EMPLOYERS of these immigrants? Get rid of the criminal employers and you create a system much easier to handle.

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OK, I understand those words to be a measure of jounalistic effectiveness. OK, WTF is the position of the hardliners and what is the 'big lie.' You got so carried away with the name calling there wasn't room for it on the first page. I am not reading 5 pages to figure out what you want.

Mike Elzey

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"Illegal" immigration is this season's unsolvable "issue" for the Republican Party. This is a pattern of politics which goes back to the first time "abortion" reared its ugly head as a so-called "issue" during Ronald Reagan's administration.

Why would the GOP want to change anything about the border situation and the influx of desperate, destitute Hondurans, Salvadorans, Nicaraquans and Mexicans into the United States? They're good workers who are easily intimidated and will work for peanuts. Moreover their mere presence, while keeping hourly wages depressed, has the salubrious effect of peeling off working-class voters who otherwise would cast ballots for Democratic candidates. Don't you think Tom Tancredo, whose Team America PAC is chaired by Bay Buchanan (who undoubtedly is not running the organization out of the goodness of her own heart.)

No, this is another scabby "issue," like abortion, gun control, "gay" marriage, etc., that the GOP keeps picking at to keep the working-class voting against its own economic best self-interests.

But corporationist Democrats are little better, for in their political arithmetic by seemingly standing with the "illegals" they will pick up as many or more Latino votes as they will lose from White working-class nativists. It also has the salubrious effect of keeping unions suppliant, hourly wages depressed and Wall Street happy. In the mathmatics of "free market" capitalism:"[L]abor is the only cost variable which management can totally control. Low wages equal high profits and stock prices. Toward that end, for the past twenty-five years, business has engaged in a winning strategy of union busting, global outsourcing and encouraging illegal immigration."

There will be no "immigration" reform this year, next year or any year thereafter.

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I don't care where you're from but if you're going to move to the USA, JUST LEARN ENGLISH...WELL ENOUGH that you can help YOUR KIDS with THEIR homework. A generation of kids are growing up functionally illiterate because their is no literacy support in the homes. Schools can only do so much in the 6 hours a day. With 30 kids per class, each teacher is lucky to spend 5 minutes per day per child working on reading/math skills.
PARENTS MUST HELP. So, if you come here from some society where education was not part of your life, GET EDUCATED. Your children are depending on YOU.

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Until every native born citizen of the USA is fed, educated, housed, employed, medically secure... how can we even CONSIDER letting multi-millions of people who will need financial and/or medical assistance come live here?

WE CAN'T EVEN TAKE CARE OF THOSE WHO LIVE HERE NOW.

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I smell bullcrap. There are so many lies built into the bill and the rhetoric that it hard to believe. Are our congressman really that dumb???
Myth 1: THEY WILL PAY BACKTAXES.
People who make minimum wage do NOT pay taxes. So how is it they owe back taxes? Do they not get taxes back at the end of the year like everyone else? Most of the lowincome mexicans I know about apply for Earned Income Credit ad get another 3 to 4 grand a year, depending on how many children they have.
Myth 2: They will pay 9 grand to be a citizen. Thats crazy!! Aren't we saying they are coming here becasue they are poverty stricken?
There is something going on but I haven't figured it out yet.
I am dismayed and hate the illegal immigration problem, but we need to remember our humanity and compassion. No wall need be built if we force Mexico to take care of people and create jobs. If we refuse medical aid and free housing and fine employers heavily, no wall need be built. But we must provide for them in their own country while encouraging LEGAL immigration here.
This bill is a bunch of buullcrap that simply leads us into confusion and really doesn't solve the problem.

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I am fascinated by the passion people have for this topic on both sides of the issue. I can't figure out for the life of me what I think of it all. We have a huge influx of Mexicans and Ecuadorians here in Minneapolis. Many people complain about them 'taking our jobs.' But it seems to me that should cause people here to rally around better labor standards, not begrudge the people for whom bad pay is better than no pay. It is in large part our own trade and farm policies which have destroyed much of the Mexican economy, leaving many what they feel is no choice but to try their luck here. I took a simple local spanish class and got a job at a restaurant to practice. It's amazing the stories people will tell you when you can speak their language.

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My husband came here legally from Afghanistan during a time of war back in the early 1990's following the withdrawal of the Soviet Union from Afghanistan and during Afghanistan's civil war. He was sponsored by his sister who was already here in the US (again legally) and he waited years to get out doding bombs and bullets as a teenager risking his life just to attend high school every day in Kabul. He and his sisters did their time waiting and paid lots of money to get here to lawyers and waited patiently through the process. They were amongst the very lucky few to get out. Afghans and Iraqis today are having trouble getting to the US through the legal process while both of their countries continue to detoriate because of war. After criticism of only allowing 200 Iraqis to seek asylum in the US since the war began, now we are finally allowing 7,000 legally to come. Oh and my husband and sister work very hard. My sister owns her own business. They both did not get free handouts from the gov't nor would they allow their pride to accept such things.

Please explain to me why someone from Mexico who snuck across the boarder should get a free economic ride in comparison? Why shoudl my tax dollars go to support their free college education when the middle class is shrinking here or their free healthcare? Are they in the middle of a war? I am totally against amnesty. Let them get lawyers and wait in line--my in laws had to!

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The one topic that neither the Democrats, nor the Republicans, nor the media will touch is the role that US foreign policy plays in the skyrocketing immigration rates.

The fact is that policies such as NAFTA and those implemented by the World Bank/IMF system have devastated the economies south of the border. This has been done for the benefit of a handful of huge corporate interests.

Immigration Flood Unleashed by NAFTA's Disastrous Impact on Mexican Economy
by Roger Bybee and Carolyn Winter 2006 Common Dreams

The reason that this was a bad bill was because of the guest worker program, which would create a permanent underclass of captive workers who could be deported at the employer's whim. They would be used to destroy American labor unions and to depress working people's wages in this country. To see how this guest worker program would work, just look at the labor used to build the American embassy in Baghdad:

Baghdad Embassy Investigated for Labor Trafficking and Abuse, By David Phinney, IraqSlogger. Posted June 1, 2007.

There is also the usual xenophobia and racist hatred that the Minutemen types are promoting. I think these people are mostly ignorant of the reasons behind the surge in immigration. They are just another example of the entrenched racist views that are still quite common in the US. They're not complaining about Canadian immigrants, are they? They seem to be afraid of being a white minority - why?

The real issue is the one that the US media always avoids, but which has been clearly stated by Chalmers Johnson and others: the US is running a colonial foreign empire abroad, and a sham democracy at home. This creates all kinds of problems, and economic refugees are just one of them.

It really is amazing to see zero coverage of NAFTA's role in immigration in any US corporate media - from NPR to FOX news, the topic is taboo. However, the Guardian UK is covering this:

The US is clamping down on illegal migrants, but it relies on their labour, Gary Younge in Greeley, Colorado Monday June 11, 2007

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How exactly is getting to the bottom of the line and paying additional fines and fees an "amnesty"? If you run a red light and get a huge ticket, is that 'amnesty', or a legally established penalty for your violation? We are all against amnesty, of course, but the immigration bill does not offer an amnesty. Then again establishing penalties that are so steep that no one can realistically pay is just a way to keep things as they are-which is what employers want, because as long as these people are here illegally they will deal with any kind of abuse in order not to be reported.
As for the previous poster: why exactly do you label a whole category of immigrants as parasites? Are you happy when your nation and your people are labeled "terrorists" by some right wing nut? Probably not. I am not happy when, being Italian, I hear idiotic jokes about mafia. Where I live in Texas many, many Mexicans own businesses, work hard, pay taxes and do what they can to send their kids to college so they can do better in life than their parents. I am proud to teach to these kids. So, let's not generalize, please.
And here's something that is often conveniently forgotten: one of the reason people immigrate is the economic disaster in their home country following NAFTA and the outrageous agricultural subsidies in the US. When we'll stop economically ruining their country, they'll probably be happy to stay home and work there.
As to the Minutemen and their supporters: unless you are Native American, shut up. Your ancestors immigrated at some point. Those who took over this land from the 16th century on certainly did not do it legally, or humanely. To hear the descendants of invaders and mass murderers complain about the big bad Mexican stealing jobs makes me laugh.

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If that's how this complex issue boils down, most liberals would be supporting The Comprehensives. But the issue is indeed too complex. What's missing in the debate is negotiation with Mexico.

And don't forget while thousands and thousands of Mexicans are making it across the border, over 10,000 dead [and mostly young] Mexicans are sent back home to Mexico every year.

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ILLEGAL, not undocumented, aliens come from all over, Ireland, Poland, Vietnam, Guatemala, Haiti and you name it.
Opposition to ILLEGAL immigration is not a racial thing. Opposition to ILLEGAL immigration is opposition to illegal and not to immigration.
The corporations in their quest for cheap labor have identified the opposition to this immigration "reform" as racist and inhumane. As one of these HARDLINERS all I want is the laws of my nation be enforced. In 1981 the country was feed another crock of crap and amnesty was allowed. All sorts of provisions ere put in place to check illegal immigration and as usual Washington, Dems and Reps in bipartisanship, sat back and did not what they took an oath to do.......enforce the laws of the US.
We do not need more reformation, we need more enforcement. We need a congress and president who take the oath of office seriously and WORK more than 96 days a year to oversea enforcement and inplementation and enactment as prescribed by the CONSTITUTION not as prescibed by the big purse corporate lobbyists
God help us all, the goose that lays the golden eggs is being killed by corporate greed.

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I’m a moderate American citizen against Bush’s immigration bill because it’s being used by both Republicans and Democrats in Congress to increase their Latino voting bases at the expense of U.S. workers whose wages are being suppressed by cheap imported labor.

Does that make me a “hardliner far outside the mainstream?” I don’t think so.

I also believe current emigration regulations should be enforced and know "amnesty" when I see it which rewards lawbreakers in Bush's bill.

As further evidence of my moderate status, I’m pro-choice, against the Iraq War and voted for Dukakis, Clinton, Gore and John Kerry despite being a registered Republican since 1956.

Only a close-minded writer like Holland would lump me and MILLIONS of other moderate Americans opposed to Bush's bill with “hardliners outside the mainstream.”

Shame on Joshua. He should know better.

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Why should the left (which I assumed AlterNet was part of) support a bill that, in Holland's words, "would have required undocumented immigrants who can prove they have been working and paying taxes in the country for an extended time to then fork over $9,000 in fines and application fees (for a family of four) and that would only get them to the back of the line, with a four-year "Z" visa. Then, after those four years were up, the head of the household could return to his or her native country and file an additional application -- paying an additional $4,000 penalty in addition to application fees. If they pass a health screening, an English proficiency test and another test of American civics, then they become legal. But only after the backlog of existing applicants is cleared -- no 'cutting in line.' All of that for people who have committed a misdemeanor."

Would that majority of pragmatic Americans supporting a path to citizenship and legalization with strings attached still support a bill that made both impossible for the vast majority of undocumented immigrants? Remember just because one of the polls Holland referenced was taken after the details of the bill were announced, doesn't mean that most or even a large minority of those polls really knew the details of the bill.

The problem with Holland's article is that it reads like one written by a liberal Washington insider - analyzing poll data, and Washington legislation, with little discussion of what is actually beneficial to immigrants or at least respectful of human rights. From that perspective this bill was a disaster.

Liberal Democrats and big-business Republicans might see passage of this bill as a victory, and reactionary right-wingers might see passage as a failure. The job of the left is to point out how crazy the right-wing is and demand what millions of people in the streets have demanded in recent years (and what some polls have shown nearly 25% of Americans are open to) - amnesty. Maybe we'll pull some of the pragmatists middle in our direction when we do that.

shoplifters unite

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Any debate about the issue should consider the treatment of people currently in the "guest worker" system as it stands today. To read an in depth report on the issue, see:
Southern Poverty Law Center report

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"Enforce the law" easy to say in a country where the chief of staff to the White House is going to jail for breaking the law. Where a president has, in signing statements challenged 72 laws of the USA. Where a Justice Department is run by a man who perjured himself before a Senate Committee, where a Justice Department official is a kingpin of voter suppression, where a White House sends its Chief of Staff to the intensive care bedside of an Atty General to get him to sign an illegal domestic spying bill. Ah yes, 'enforce the law.'

Yes the USA is a country based on the 'rule of law' but it should start at the top. I despair of any important immigration reforms taking place until the law breakers in the White House are gone.

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My neighbor just had new siding installed on his house. Every worker appeared to be from Mexico or points farther south. At first quite a few started the project. Then, some days. the work crew was only a few. Then there were days when nobody showed up. My neighbor surmised that they probably all got drunk the preceding night. Needless to say he became very upset with the lack of progress. Finally the job was finished ( and only two shutters were broken). ONLY?

I immediately thought of the above when I read the post from the contractor in Chicago and later in Ark.

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Indeed, the children of hispanic immigrants who from a young age experience the narcissistic social competition of this country, and are poor, could be in for a rough and unproductive time. Feelings of social inadequacy will be/already are common, given that their parents are making $5-10/hour at work.

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As an intern working at a Democrat US Senator's office, I never cease to be amazed at the number of calls we get from people angry about the "amnesty bill." Some of the calls are so racist I tend to think they prank calling at first. Every frickin day, about 90% of the issue calls we get are about "no amnesty" and "send em back where they came from." Compare this with only one time a constituent has ever called concerned about global warming! When will people stop scapegoating the poorest and most vulnerable and instead look at the crooks at the top, or confront their own ignorance?

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There are some of us that worry about the affect of this Bill on our economy and on what is left of the Middle Class. Do a google and you will find out about the decline of the Middle Class. Soon there will be only the rich and the poor. We have a National Debt of over 9 Trillion dollars, China and Japan are close to owning us, this Legislation will cost over 2 trillion. Immigration does not have a program set up yet to take care of registering 12 to 20 million; Immigration is behind taking care of those that are trying to come here legally.

The U.S. government last year passed Senator Hatch’s Fairness in Asbestos Injury Resolution Act of 2005 (S. 852) : “........according to another economic report (Bates-White), even under conservative assumptions, it will cost the U.S. government over $300 billion dollars to pay for the trust. Assuming the same $140 billion of revenue, that puts this program about $160 billion in the red. These conservative assumptions are similar to those assumed by the CBO – they don’t account for a lot of possible risks that could increase the payout of the program substantially.” I can’t find out if the Court, that will process the lawsuits, has been developed yet.

Can you imagine how long it will take the government to set up a process to register the illegal aliens and the flood of people coming here after the Legislation passes. The borders need to be closed first. Closing the borders is a National Security problem and shouldn’t be attached to an immigration bill.
(What are the Real Unemployment Figures?) The Department of Labor states:
2006 Whites 3.9%, African/American 8.5%, Hispanics 4.8%
2007 Whies 4.0%, African/American 8.1%, Hispanics 5.4%, even the Hispanic/American’s unemployment rate is going up.
`````````````````````
When the 1986 Amnesty Bill passed, within 2 years SSI payments doubled.
“Non-citizens receiving SSI, Mexicans 157,000, more than any other country. (Interesting: Unknown Country of Origin 8,576.) Number of months between date of U.S. Residency and date of SSI application and eligibility category, 0-11 months -- 104,861 for Mexicans.”
In 11 years, SSI will be paying out more than it collects in taxes, 2040 it will be exhausted. If a large number applies after we give 12 - 20 million Amnesty, will that wipe out SSI?
`````````````````````
Could our withholding aid from third world countries be one of the reasons for the influx of illegal aliens? http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/icc/usindex.htm
```````````````````````````
HOSPITAL TO THE WORLD WELCOMES ILLEGALS & CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Dr. Madeleine Cosman, Ph.D., ESQ
April 25, 2005
“Today, legal immigrants must demonstrate that they are free of communicable diseases and drug addiction to qualify for lawful permanent residency Green Cards....But Illegal Aliens stop at no medical checkpoint. Whoever walks through our foolishly open Golden Door comes in healthy or sick......”

``````````````````````````
International Program Development
Evanston, IL 60208-2225
Northwestern University has been formally affiliated with Universidad Panamericana (Mexico City) (UP) since 2000. We have hosted 4-6 UP students in our clinical electives each year, and 4-6 first and fourth year Northwestern medical students have participated in clinical rotations at UP each year.... The curriculum is conducted in Spanish. Public Health research is also available to MPH students. Among the notable aspects of the specialty experiences, there is a dermatology hospital where leprosy and other conditions uncommon in this country are seen on a routine basis.

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Hi~
First, Joshua, there is a small group of intellectual Mexicans & others that are advocating that certain parts of the United States are part of a historic Aztec Empire. They are both historically wrong, and they are simply imperialists.

More important, if someone takes a job in the United States illegally and is allowed to keep said job, that person enjoys amnesty: these people are mostly coming here for work. If they don't have to give up their jobs, they are quite happy to be denied citizenship for a long period of time.

You are wrong to assume that all opponents of the current bill have a negative perception of Mexicans. They are a fine, hard working group. The problem is that they are coming here in desperation for work and being used by American businesses to undercut American workers.

The solution to the problem is an employment verification system that confirms one's eligibility to be in the country. That language in the bill should be offered as a separate stand-alone bill. Once a system is in place and operating, the nation can consider amnesty for those still in the country.

Before taking that step, other legislation is needed. For one thing, we need to end dual-citizenship. It is used for foreign nations to unduly influence American political decision-making. Mexico and Israel are the two countries that most abuse dual-citizenship.

We also need to figure out just how many people are in the country illegally. The BLS doesn't keep records and the Census Bureau is only guessing. It is very possible that as many as 20 million people are in the country illegally.

We also need to reform NAFTA. The Mexican economy has been devasted by the treaty and the flow of immigrants is coming from every part of that country. We should be working with these people to reform their country and develop bilateral relationship that benefits the US, Canada, and Mexico.

God Speed,
David

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I wonder if the conservative critics of immigration are willing to take their fight where it actually belongs, namely the corporate boardrooms. Seems to me that their real problem is with their beloved "free-market system" itself - both in the sense that the market drives the search for ever-cheaper labor, and in the degree to which capital dictates what government is allowed to do re workers' rights...

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The biggest critics of massive illegal immigration are the working classes of this country........mostly Democrats. Their leaders are elitist and totally out of touch. The immigration issue has nothing to do political affiliation, period. Tha's what Congress and the elitist media don't seem to get. Josh Holland, the politicos, the media, can put whatever name or spin the want on this bill......it is amnesty to those of us who pay taxes, never got SSI or medicaid, never abused a hospital ER......sorry if THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE disturbs you all....

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We legalize the 12 million illegals currently in the country (the real number might be higher) and 10 years from now we'll have another 10-12 million to deal with...
The big corporations like it that way, they control the game and they have just about every politician and media outlet in their pocket (except maybe Ron Paul). So what are you gonna do 'bout it? See, they know there ain't much we can do about it... unless we the people decide to have a real Revolution: it's in our power to do that. But do we really want it?

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I have the solution to the Illegal Immigration Issue..!

Have the Congress and Senate Rescind all American Citizenship, and henceforth make us all residents..then immediately the Illegal millions here are equal with those of us who have been previously considered Citizens..

Then Henceforth only Corporations will be considered Citizens and only Citizens can vote not residents..but "Citizens" will not pay Taxes only residents and then we can also refer to Taxes Henceforth as Rent..so also we get Tax Reform as well..

After all our elected representatives don't represent us but only Corporations, so corporations are the only true Citizens anyway..!

I know the Federalist Society will go for this big time and both parties might pass this in a true bi-partisan manner..!

Then we can do away with our borders and flood the country with as many as can get here, and there are not going to be any complaints from the "Citizens" as this is what they want, and wages can go back to what they were in the 1930's, as Bush and Reid and McCain and Kennedy want as well as David Rockefeller..!

After all what fun it is to be rich, if the poor aren't miserable and suffering..!

It's the American way..!

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Joshua Holland is the user of the big lie technique.
RE also: http://www.alternet.org/rights/52186/
1. Reference: "The Impeachment of George W. Bush" by
Elizabeth Holtzman, former Congresswoman and member
of the Nixon impeachment panel; copyright 2006. George
W. Bush has refused to enforce the laws already on the
books regarding illegal aliens/"immigrants". The law
already requires George W. Bush to arrest people and
companies who employ illegal aliens/"immigrants".
Refusal to carry out a law is grounds for impeachment of a
president. George W. Bush should be impeached
immediately for this and many other high crimes
2. The reason George W. Bush allows illegal immigration
is that his "base" of rich people want to violate labor laws
with impunity, bust unions and lower wages. Illegals
cannot enforce labor laws. For example, meat packers can
run the packing line so fast with illegal workers that manure
gets spattered onto your meat. You DO like manure with
your meat, don't you? The idea that there are jobs
Americans won't do is a myth and propaganda. The
"problem" is that with legal workers, you have to obey
labor laws and pay a legal wage.
3. Allowing illegal aliens/"immigrants" to stay here will not
reduce the suffering of those left in the country they came
from. Research has shown that when we give free food to
poor countries the result is INCREASED suffering and
starvation. Parents in those countries have More children
they can't feed and then tell the extra children to go sneak
into the US. The stockholders of ADM, Cargill and
General Grain thank you for your donation. The same is
true with illegal aliens/"immigrants". The more we allow,
the more overbreeding happens in the poor country they
come from because sneaking into the US provides a genetic
advantage to the sneaker's parents. It is necessary to
understand what is possible and what is not possible.
There is nothing we can do about poverty in other
countries. We haven't solved poverty at home yet.
4. ALL countries are countries of immigrants, even African
countries where our species originated. Waves of people
from Asia went Back to Africa. Of course, people from
anywhere else originally came from Africa, it is only a
matter of When. The "We are a nation of immigrants"
argument is therefore irrelevant. All countries, even the
US, have the right to control immigration. The question is
whether or not such immigration benefits the majority of
people who are already there. Excess and illegal
immigration benefits the few at the expense of the many.
5. Do you want to work for a nickel a day? If we let in
everybody who wants to come, the US will be as
overpopulated as India and we will be the poorest country
in the world.

6. LBJ Lyndon Baynes "Light Bulb" Johnson should have
been impeached as well because The "Gulf of Tonkin
Incident" never happened. LBJ made it up and lied to get
us into the pointless war in Viet Nam.

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This article is total BS. The bill was an amnesty first bill with no provisions for preventing the hiring of illegals. As such it would lead to an additional 12 million illegals coming in. Step one is to set up a system that makes it impossible for illegals to get jobs (this would probably involve a national ID card). Then we can talk about amnesty. What corporation is funding Holland?

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Holy disposable diaperings, batman, this article was nuts. Joshua often has an interesting angle but this one defies logic. A human rights violation from the start, was what this bill was. That a "debate" never happened was academic, not a sabotage. There will be no immigration reform in the USA until the level of racism, as amply and shockingly evidenced in the vast majority of comments above, is done away with. It's all crap, 100% of it. That's why this kind of bill will keep on dying.... under the crushing weight of bigotry and ignorance the author and the commentors both exhibited here today on Alternet.

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Make that E.D. Hirsch.

Joshua in the OT blew his trumpet so loud he made the walls of Jericho fall down.

But originally mentioned in the Book of Gilgamesh? i think...

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(n/m)

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I like that!
But I have to see it!
USA is a country of immigration made by the French in 1776. Whithout French = No USA.
So do not forget that all of us are Europeans and when we came here we took the land of the others using Whinchesters and Colts .45.
So you call that :Entering a ountry legally?
Our ancestors did not have any problemto con in the US. So, why today, people cannot even get a tourist visa.
If we do not legalize illegals, big coporatioos will go abroad and the US will loose everything.
So , we have the choice. Legalize illegals or say good bye to the US economy....Because manufactures will move in other countries like China, India, and South America.
Even Winchester was bought by FN . A Belgian company. The same company that will make one million of assault weapons for the US army. Hoe do you feel to be eat by a small country. While you are fighting a gohst about immigration. Legalize those people and try to do something smart about the economy. So far, the US look to me like the Fall of the Roman Empire...But it will fall faster!
And we will pay $10 .00 for a gallon of gas etc...to try to get away of the debts. Anyway, our flag looks nice ! Blue,white and red....Like the Statue of Liberty. They mixe well! French or English color??
Do not cry when we will be in the pit...WE asked for it!
Mea culpa.

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It is simply supply and demand. There is a supply of construction and service industry jobs that native Americans either can't or refuse to do. If there were no jobs available, immigrants would stop coming over.

By the way, if all illegal immigrants were deported, the price of everything you buy would probably double.

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Pres. Bush and the DemoPublican acolytes speaking above???

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those of you in support of any bill that will incorporate the millions of illegals currently in this country, that for many people those marches were like someone walking up to you in a bar, pushing you in the chest, and saying F**K YOU. The idea of hundreds of thousands of people many here illegally, many their family members who hope to anchor them, just not caring what is widely reported, as a majority of Americans think.

The trouble is when many of the Senators went home during the Memorial Day break they had to listen, not to those not legally eligible to vote, but to those who were. The Democrats think they can keep putting this bill up, and calling it the President's or Republican, like nobody is watching. For the first time in my entire life I'm considering a Republican for President. And I wish I weren't.

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The 2 illegal immigration options we always hear are:

1) Instant mass-deportation of 12-20 million illegals... or
2) Shamnesty.

There is an almost forgotten 3rd option:

3) Attrition!

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People who cross our borders illegally are not citizens of this country. They are not entitled to benefits meant for citizens of this country. The fact that they can't find work in their countries is a huge issue. These "free trade" agreements certainly impact their ability to find work in their own countries. Unscrupulous employers in the US hire them and exploit them by paying low wages and providing no health insurance or other benefits. Because they are vulnerable and work for low wages they drive down the wages for legal citiznes. Illegal immigrants have strained the healthcare systems, the school systems and social benefits systems. They have babies who become US citizens and are entitled to benefits. Many of these people are unskilled and uneducated. There have been few studies regarding the financial costs of taking care of these illegal immigrants. Is it too much to ask for this government to do it's job and enforce the current immigration laws? Is it too much to ask that this government protect our borders and prevent so many illegal immigrants from coming to this country? We need to secure our borders with border partrol agents. If we can secure our borders and cut down on the numbers of people coming in illegally, then we can look at providing a means to sort out the ones who are already here and provide a means for them to become citizens. The US government is responsible for a lot of this problem with illegal immigrants by allowing companies to employ them and benefit from paying low wages. We can not go on funding the problems of other countries. We have severe problems in this country with our own citizens. We have huge deficits and have become the debtor nation. We are engaging in wars and the NeoCons, the Pentagon, the military industrial complex, and huge corporations run this country. This current US government can bankrupt the country and run our social systems into the ground. We have to take some steps to stop this rapant growth of illegal populations and come to terms with fiscal and social responsibilities. The Democrats and the Republicans have not taken their roles seriously in Congress. We need to secure our borders, look at all the financial and social issues and develop a real immigration policy, that is humane but fiscally responsible. The bottom line is that the people of this country don't trust this president or this Congress or these two political parties to address this vrey serious and substantivel issue.

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Anyone who is a citizen of any of the fifty states or is a U S citizen and supports S1348 is either ignorant or a traitor to this Republic. I've read all that has been released to the public in this bill. It is a bill that spells disaster.

Enforce the current laws on the books for immigration. Deport all illegal's. The United States is a sovereign country and when a person decides to take up legal citizenship in a sovereign country you follow the rules for such legal status. Try to break the immigration rules in any sovereign country and see how they react.

If you want to be a legal immigrant here in the United States then follow our rules. If that isn't good enough then go elsewhere. We are a nation of immigrants but we are not a nation of diversity. Yes, many diverse nationalities are here but when you become a citizen, you agree to live by our laws. You agree to learn the english language, and to learn our laws and to live within those laws. This is nothing more or less than would be expected if any of us decided to become a lawful immigrant of any other sovereign country.

If you accuse me of being mean spirited or a bigot then you are a fool because only fools would desire illegal's to be here. If you support this illegal invsion then you are truly a traitor to your country and you are inviting a lawless people with no regard for your neighbors or your fellow countrymen.

Those of you who are not even living in this country as a citizen have no right to defend or criticize one way or another because it is not your country and none of your business.

I'm truly amazed at the hypocracy of many on Alternet who support this bill which is George W. Bush's bill but have spent so much time and energy trashing this same president. You can't have it two ways. This President is a globalist and not a patriot. He is beholding to global corporate interests and that is why he has proposed this legislation using Kennedy and others. He is a one world order president and cares nothing about our national sovereignty. He is a puppet with strings leading to powerful interests and those interests are not concerned about we the people or this Republic.

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Here's an idea for a social experiment that would prove a point...how about 1000 US Citizens illegally "move" to Mexico, try and get jobs, enroll your kids in school and demand bilingual classes in English, show up at hospitals expecting medical care, have babies and request Mexican citizenship, etc...

Are you laughing yet?

Mexico incarcerates the illegal aliens who fail to follow their laws.

What would they do to a bunch of gringos? Sure would make headlines.

What's fair is fair. Until Mexico opens it's borders to workers and families from other countries, why should Mexico insist we do?

This would make a kick-butt movie of the week...

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Not once that I can see, did Mr. Holland mention that the main draw for these illegal immirgants is the "better" jobs they can get in America. The 1986 law gave amnEsty and promised to stop further illigal immigration by going heavily after the employers of illegals. THIS NEVER HAPPENED!!!

So I can ONLY deduce two things about Mr Holland's condemnation of those of us who believe we are a laND of laws and are partial to those legalimigrants who followed them.

One either he loves to see big business get away with exploiting workers and wants to see this continue OR he believes that politicians in 2007 are more honest and will keep their promises than they were in 1986 and will actualluy enforce the law at our borders and within our economy. Which one is it, Mr. Holland?

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This is something that never ceases to amaze me, but we already have immigration laws that are pretty good already. They just aren't enforced. This bill, if passed, would be just another law. What makes you think it will be enforced as intended by the legislature? hmm?

The thing is, most laws are cherry picked and selectively enforced. The amnesty portion of this bill is a part that will most certainly be selectively enforced. The fines and back taxes? Probably not. Holding employers accountable for hiring illegals? Probably not. Securing the border? Probably not. Ensuring the legalized illegals have access to all entitlement programs? That part will be enforced.

Come on, tell me that's not how it works!

That's why the system is corrupt, and sooner or later you're going to have to start factoring that into your reasoning.

This bill is in fact the death of america. It will open the floodgates on immigration. Nothing will be done to even attempt to control it. No part of this legislation that attempts to stem the tide will be enforced. I got news for you, it's called window dressing. This is blanket amnesty, and the part about paying fines and back taxes? Oh don't worry that will be yet another one of many laws that don't get enforced. How many times does this have to happen before it becomes predictable to you?

More than 50% of all children born of illegals in this country will not speak english by the time they are 18. The Plan of San Diego is real. Reconquista Baby! The old concept of the melting pot is dead. This will be a de facto 3rd world country. There will be the rich, living in their gated communities, listening to Limbaugh on the radio and Oreilly on the tv telling them how great things are. And the rest of us will be fighting for our lives, losing more and more ground to people we cannot even communicate with on the most basic level. No [censored] habla. How much life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness do you envision in a country like that? Now add the rising gas costs on top of that...

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Unscrupulous corporations hire illegals because they can pay them very low wages while the corporations line their pockets with profits. Hard working men and women are losing their jobs to illegals because they cannot compete with the lower wages. Some of those who lost their jobs are American contractors who were outbid in their own country by people from another country. As soon as the illegal immigrants get green cards, their employers dump them because they are too expensive. We do not welcome educated immigrants, but we tolerate illegal immigration of Mara Salvatrucha thugs. If massive immigration of stoop laborers form third world countries is good idea, why don't we just open the borders and let billions of immigrants come here?

I am very concerned about massive immigration of radical Muslims. When a Muslim applies for the green card, the immigration interrogators ask him if he is a communist. Nobody asks him if he is a Wahhabi or a Salafi. Nobody asks him if he wants to replace U.S. constitution with the Sharia law. Our Muslim population doubles every 10 years – this is a recipe for a civil war!. Hamas is a terrorist organization and yet it is tolerated in the U.S.!

More about me: I am a naturalized citizen and former legal immigrant from a hellhole called Poland. I used to be Green Democrat. Now I am a Reformer (American Reform Party). I never voted for a Republican. My favorite contemporary politicians are Paul Tsongas, Bill Clinton, and Al Gore. I lived in Minnesota and I liked Paul Wellstone.

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As a card-carrying Communist friend once identified me, I'm not a wishy-washy liberal, I'm a wishy-washy radical. At this point I'm 63 and have done my fair share of protesting, letter-writing, etc. etc. That said, I am totally against the immigration bill as offered to Congress. We have laws against illegal immigration, which are mostly abided by, except for our southern border. True, there used to be laws about black people using white bathrooms and those are gone now. That was about equal rights for citizens under the law. Illegal aliens are not having their rights violated, nor are they citizens. They should be handled according to the law and our borders should be guarded as prescribed by law.

If I, an American senior citizen, have to surrender my carried-on bottles of face makeup and walk barefooted through a metal detector to fly within my own country, why should a citizen of Mexico or somewhere other than the United States have the right to violate the law of my country by living and working here freely without documentation simply because some CEO somewhere can't afford to pay black, white, yellow, brown and red Americans a living wage to do the same thing.

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Why the Immigration Bill Died in the Senate -- and Will Keep Dying
Because it's a garbage bill, written by garbage spewing politicians that are failing to pull the wool over the eyes of those of us who have to live with the in-your-face effects of these illegals!
I can only hope that as each day goes by those illegals will get in the face of each and every one of them in some kind of negative way. Maybe reality will finally hit home with those who think we should just stand back silently and let them destroy the U.S.A.
We need:
No more bills!
No more amendments!
No new laws!
Secure the border, enforce the exhisting laws!!!
Or is this just too simple for those fat heads in Washington to understand?

www.numbersUSA.com

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Illegal immigration is only part of a larger problem that humanity does not weant to face, and that is that there are too many people. The bottom line is that the quality of life in this country will diminish with every rise in the population and it doesn't matter if that rise comes from illegal or lagal immigeration or a native having three or more children. America is going to have an additional 100 million people in the next thirty odd years and the country will be a living hell.

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I was at a high school graduation today. There were over 600 family members present. Our school is about 2% Euro-American, 8% African American and the rest are immigrant families from Mexico and Philippines. I was amazed when it came time for the Pledge and Nat'l Anthem that the vast majority (90%) of the "audience" knew neither the words to the Pledge or the words to the Anthem. They did not stand for the Flag Salute or show any emotion during the Anthem during their kids graduation.
This is a school in San Francisco.....

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Ted Kennedy was a strong supporter of the 1965 Hart-Celler Act signed into law by President Lyndon B. Johnson which dramatically changed US immigration policy.

This is what Ted Kennedy said about the 1965 bill.

"The bill will not flood our cities with immigrants. It will not upset the ethnic mix of our society. It will not relax the standards of admission. It will not cause American workers to lose their jobs."

Kennedy is now the chair of the United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Citizenship, and remains a strong advocate for immigrants, both documented and undocumented

About the same time there wasn't enough room for citizens to have children.



The Unacknowledged Holocaust


Back in the 60’s the Federal Government came into the public schools and brainwashed us as little children with the message that the children we were about to have were unwanted because the population was rising so fast. They launched a program called Family Planning. They pushed birth control pills. I think you and I now both know that you only have to trick people for their few child bearing years and there is no going back.

Many of us never had a say.

I am the result of two living cells. One from each of my parents. They are the result of two living cells, one from each of their parents. I wasn't just born. I am a continuation of life. I am a living thing that reaches back into time perhaps 400 million years and the result of billions of joining of pairs of cells. It is possible that if you were to follow my cells back to my parent’s cells and beyond that my family tree touches every living thing here on earth. That is if we limit ourselves to believing life was created here on earth. If it rained down from the immensity of the universe it could reach back into that immensity of time and space, and who knows what relationships and who knows what species.

At least until I came up against the Federal Government and their plan to control the population.

I have seen the Federal Government do little else to control the population.

The open border, United States laws only apply to some, is a serious slap in the face. No, not a slap in the face, it reaches well beyond that. Maybe back to the beginning of time and stretch to the bounds of the universe.

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Well Joshua...what do you think?

I don't see a majority here, which is a highly liberal site supporting your nonsense...so what are we missing?

As I wrote you in my email, the polls are lying or are being taken out of context.

So tell us...what do you think of the response? All extremists and hardliners?

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We do not have any immigration law! We just have an anti immigration law.

Read the immigration law and you will see that it's almost impossible to immigrate in the US. Except if you get married to a US citizen or under family reunification. Only between parents and children.

Or you need to be an Einstein, but those guys stay in Europe . They make more mney, they work less and they have good healthcare and vacations. Everything that we do not have in the US.

So, we can only attract poor people to do the job that we do not want to do.

Some nice people from a lot of countries cannot even get a tourist visa ! Do you really think that the entire world want to come to the US.? If yes, you are dreaming. Only Mexicans and people from poor country want to come here.

US businessmen will move to China, India and South America. That way, you will have a job at McDonald.

And poor countries will become rich. Look at the US$ and compare it to the Euro. What do you want Euro or US$?

I wish to get pay in Euro.

We are going down, it's time to work a little bit guys! But it was too easy so far! And now, it's a litle bit too late. If you take the Mexicans and other immigrants here, they will be able to give what you want. Cheaper milk, food etc...This country is big, but not so big compared to the world. But it's big enough to take 20 millions of people. Because we only are 300 millions in the US. Compare to China, India, Europe and the complete South America...We are not so important.....
Do not talk about the army. We cannot even control civilians in Iraq. Imagine if we have to fight a real army!!!
Anyway, I do not care if you do not understand the problem. We are all Europeans in America. We invaded this land by killing the native Americans and by fighting the Mexicans. Is it comming legaly in this country?
Nice try!
So, now, we need to change the name of the towns and the streets if you want to be a "Pure American"
Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas etc.. etc...
Good luck..You are on the right way to loose this country.
Because you will never understand the truth. US is a land of immigrants. Period.
Make a good immigration law and everything will be all right. Give a chance to poor people to eat. Or we have no heart at all!

But do not destroy the Berlin wall to have bricks to build a Mexican wall. It's so ridiculous.And you say to the world that we are a democracy.

Even Putin said: "Weird system to impose democracy with bombs!"

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WHAT IS THERE ABOUT THE WORD ILLEGAL THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND? Not undocumented but illegal.

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I regularly gave essay assignments to my high school and middle school students. One of them was, "Describe your experience coming to America."

Most students described their first plane trip. They came on a tourist visa then stayed on. In fact, every one of the 'visa overstays' I know did that.

My disappointment with the failure of this bill is that, though imperfect, it was to allow some mechanism for people to come out of the shadows. I know people who have taken great pains to become 'documented'; people who can't get a driver's license in California now so drive up to Oregon to get one then transfer, etc. There are 'legal' tricks. But many wish there would be a system to follow.

I have several friends who had their hopes pinned on this bill. Now I guess they'll continue their search looking for someone to marry.

I'm also confused as to why people don't mind HB1B visas but go crazy over any mention of amnesty for the undocumented. HB1B holders are generally paid handsomely; I would think that these would be the types of jobs Americans would be loathe to lose.

I don't get the extreme punitive thing with regards to immigrants. Just for wanting to come here? Guess we should take that inscription off the Statue of Liberty.

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