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Frankenstein Immigration Deal Angers Left, Right and Center

Congressional leaders negotiated a new immigration bill. Unfortunately, as the New York Times editorial board explains, in an attempt to craft a proposal that would be acceptable to everyone, they've created an abomination.
May 22, 2007  |  
 
 
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Get set for round two of the Great American Immigration Debate as Congress attempts to reform an immigration system that almost everyone agrees is dysfunctional, regardless of one's ideology or position on the issue.

Building off last year's Senate proposal -- one that came very close to becoming the law of the land -- congressional leaders negotiated a new immigration bill. Unfortunately, in trying to craft a proposal that would be acceptable to everyone, they seem to have created an abomination -- an approach in which the most liberal supporter of immigrants' rights and the most dedicated anti-immigration hard-liner will find something to loathe.

The New York Times editorial board weighed in this weekend, condemning the "deal" as a wasted effort and a missed opportunity. The original is here.

The immigration deal

The immigration deal announced in the Senate last week poses an excruciating choice. It is a good plan wedded to a repugnant one. Its architects seized a once-in-a-generation opportunity to overhaul a broken system and emerged with a deeply flawed compromise. They tried to bridge the chasm between brittle hard-liners who want the country to stop absorbing so many outsiders and those who want to give immigrants -- illegal ones, too -- a fair and realistic shot at the American dream.

But the compromise was stretched so taut to contain these conflicting impulses that basic American values were uprooted and sensible principles ignored. Many advocates for immigrants have accepted the deal anyway, thinking it can be improved this week in Senate debate or later in conference with the House of Representatives. We both share those hopes and think they are unrealistic. The deal should be improved. If it is not, it should be rejected as worse than a bad status quo.

The good. Part of the compromise is strikingly appealing. It is the plan to give most of the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants the chance to live and work without fear and to become citizens eventually. The conditions are tough, including a $5,000 fine and a wait until certain "trigger" conditions on border security are met and immigration backlogs are cleared. It requires heads of households to apply in their home countries, sending them on a foolish "touchback" pilgrimage. That is a large concession to Republican hard-liners, but they, too, have come a long way: Consider that last year the House of Representatives wanted to brand the 12 million and those who gave them aid as criminals. A winding and expensive path to citizenship is still a path.

The bad. The deal badly erodes two bedrock principles of American immigration: that employers can sponsor immigrants to fill jobs and that citizens and legal permanent residents have the right to sponsor family members -- young children and spouses, of course, but also their grown children, siblings and parents. The proposal would eliminate several categories of family-based immigration, and it would distribute green cards according to a point-based system that shifts the preference toward those who have education and skills but not necessarily roots in this country. Supporters say that the proposal has been tweaked to give some weight to kinship, and that many immigrants would still be able to bring loved ones in. But the repellent truth is that countless families will be split apart while we cherry-pick the immigrants we consider brighter and better than the poor, tempest-tossed ones we used to welcome without question.

The awful. The agreement fails most dismally in its temporary worker program. "Temporary means temporary" has been a Republican mantra, motivated by the thinly disguised impulse to limit the number of workers, Latinos mostly, doing the jobs Americans find most distasteful. The deal calls for the creation of a new underclass that could work for two years at a time, six at the most, but never put down roots. Immigrants who come here under that system -- who play by its rules, work hard and gain promotions, respect and job skills -- should be allowed to stay if they wish. But this deal closes the door. It offers a way in but no way up, a shameful repudiation of American tradition that will encourage exploitation -- and more illegal immigration.

It is painful, for many reasons, to oppose this immigration deal. It is no comfort to watch as this generation's Know-Nothings bray against "amnesty" from their anchor chairs and campaign lecterns, knowing that it gives hope to the people they hate.

It is especially difficult because lives are in the balance. The millions without documents live in constant fear: a campaign of federal raids has spread panic and shattered families. Congress's dithering has encouraged the rise of homegrown zealots: mayors, police departments, county executives and legislators who take reform into their own hands with cruelly punitive measures. No amount of hostile legislation is going to drive the immigrants away. A collapsed immigration deal could put off reform for years and encourage more of this cruelty.

It is the nation's duty to welcome immigrants, to treat them decently and give them the opportunity to assimilate. But if it does so according to the outlines of the deal being debated this week, the change will come at too high a price: The radical repudiation of generations of immigration policy, the weakening of families and the creation of a system of modern peonage within our borders.
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Lives, and plans, discarded... for what?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: willie.horton on May 22, 2007 2:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am the native-born US citizen at the core of a family of immigrants.
I married a Russian woman in 2000. She obtained her US citizenship in 2004, and now her mother is here with a green card. Once she gets citizenship, her other daughter -- my wife's sister -- will apply for her visa, bringing her little son with her.
Our family takes part in a long tradition of family-based immigration: I "sponsored" my wife (signing an incredibly strict Affidavit of Support, financially guaranteeing that she would never end up receiving public assistance); she signed the same affidavit for her mother, who is now a cashier at the local Home Depot... and who will do the same for my sister-in-law. This is how families, and thriving immigrant enclaves, have entrenched themselves in the United States over the last century.
The latest bill, with its thinly-veiled "amnesty," will largely put an end to this by leapfrogging former illegals ahead in line and eliminating much family-based immigration. Family plans like ours, which take a decade or two to complete, will be smashed; people who broke our laws will be rewarded -- along with the employers who illegally supported and exploited them.
This plan isn't good for anybody who has obeyed the laws. Maybe that's why Bush likes it...

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There are laws then there are laws
[Report this comment]
Posted by: solrev on May 22, 2007 4:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I was a Mexican living in Mexico, and I had to watch my children go to sleep starving, and I had the opportunity to cross a line in the sand so that my children could survive, I am going to jump the border. Any self-righteous American that would not do that because it is against the law, is not worth spit.

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» There ARE starving Africans so logically... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» What a shame... Posted by: SteveB
» Mexico is the 2nd FATTEST country in the world Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» I'm outta here... Posted by: SteveB
» RE: I'm outta here... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: I'm outta here... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Exactly SteveB Posted by: anotheropinion
» I agree with you on NAFTA Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Remember the Ethiopian famine? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» LISTEN! Posted by: anotheropinion
» Get Real Posted by: freeda'all

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Comprehensive plans don't make sense. Secure the borders first.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: KeepsonTickn on May 22, 2007 4:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too many people are trying to force their agendas in one bill. We should make our borders secure. Then we can deal with immigrants who are here already.

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unfree
[Report this comment]
Posted by: losingmyliberties on May 22, 2007 5:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Twenty one years ago they gave 3 million illegals citizenship,now they want to do it again . Another 12 million plus of law breakers,it will never stop.I thought this government didn't deal with terrorist . Let's adopt the government's substance laws, to this matter. Seize the business's that employ them, arrest all that deal with the law breakers. Because people in this country don't
care how the government treats people in the substance war.
Use all branches of law enforcement like they do in substance war, to stop the invasion . We do want to be fair right, liberty and justest for all.

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» RE: unfree Posted by: sausage
» RE: unfree Posted by: losingmyliberties
» If you're sincere... Posted by: SteveB
» Ever steal somebody's job? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: ver steal somebody's job? Posted by: losingmyliberties

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This editorial leaves something out
[Report this comment]
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 22, 2007 6:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where's all the pious guff about how controlling the border would be immoral?

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Immigration: the new "abortion"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: sausage on May 22, 2007 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The business-school influenced, reactionary right does not want to change the status quo of "illegal" immigration at this time or in the foreseeable future. Why should it?

The current system, or more accurately non-system, of immigration law suits American "free market" capitalism to a "T." It is a long held business school mantra; labor is the only cost variable which management can totally control. Low wages equal high profits and stock prices. Toward that end, for the past twenty-five years, business has engaged in a winning strategy of union busting, global outsourcing and encouraging illegal immigration.

"Illegal" immigration and undocument workers translate to depressed wages in basic industries and for major stockholders, who add this also benefits the consumer, this is a good thing.

Congressional Republicans have no intention of enacting any kind of immigration reform. It's a surefire vote getter among middle class voters with its racist and xenophobic appeal.

"Illegal" immigration as an "issue" will be with us for a very long time, perhaps as long as the abortion "issue" has been with us. "Illegal" immigration propelled an obscure Congressional backbencher, Tom Tancredo, to national prominence. So look for more politicians, especially on the right, to cynically exploit voters and illegal immigrants by bloviating on the subject but do nothing to correct the situation.

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A California opinion
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on May 22, 2007 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a California opinion-
My ancestors immigrated from Russia and learned ENGLISH. California has already become a place of middle class to wealthy English Speakers (white, Asian, East Indian, etc...) and ghettos (an Italian word, by the way) full of non-English speaking folks.

Right now, in California, you can take your driver's license test in more languages than one person could ever learn. We allow voters to vote in Chinese and Spanish.

If we want all boats to float, we need a mandatory English policy for citizenship.

We can not continue to have an uneducated underclass.
Living in a country and not speaking the language will perpetuate the underclass.

Could any of us move to ...say....Thailand...and expect our kids to be educated in English, given free medical care in English, etc?

We would be expected to learn Thai, to support ourselves financially and we would never be entitled to handouts.

If we are going to continue, as a nation, to invite the planet to move to the USA, we need a common language to form a common vision.

I predict civil war in California within 30 years.

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» RE: A California opinion Posted by: sausage
» Let me clarify Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Let me clarify Posted by: PirateJesus

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P.S. Point based immigration systems are working in many countries
[Report this comment]
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on May 22, 2007 6:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S. Point based immigration systems are working in many countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand (English speaking countries, coincidently).

We need highly educated people in our country. Our schools (especially in California) are totally "dumbed down" because our kids come from families where parents can't help kids with homework because they aren't fluent in English or never took math past 6th grade.

I'd rather see 50,000 solar and wind engineers invited to live and work here over 50,000 unskilled laborers.

As much as we need our lettuce picked, we need people who are employable at wages that reduce teen pregnancy, crime, drug use, gangs, welfare, etc...

Do we want to drain and deplete Social Security for the boomers by supporting millions of under-employed illegals?

I believe everyone should have access to a better life also...but LEGALLY. Assimilate. My ancestors did.

Melting pot? Fruit salad? Whatever you call it, it requires one thing- a common language so that we're all on the same page and there is more access to education and opportunity for all.

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» Social Security myth... Posted by: SteveB
» RE: Social Security myth -- hard data Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Social Security myth -- hard data Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Immigrants are a danger
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Lesha on May 22, 2007 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is obvious that corporations should be the main target of protest being that they provide the source of work for illegal immigrants.


With the above being the source, immigrants are a danger not because of their ethnicity or work ethics, they are a danger because they are too willing (without knowing it) to settle for what scraps corporations will throw their way as far as wages are concern . These folks are being used to undercut most of this society and foolishly make the rich even richer while those in the middle are squeezed out.

These poor fools do not realize that they are allowed in this country in droves to help set up a society like Mexico where the rich controls over 90% of the wealth while the rest of their lower class fight for the scraps. The young men and children of these immigrants will be used to fight wars under the guise that they will be given citizenship in exchange for their service not knowing that their chances of survival are low. Right now about 60.000 of the troops in Iraq are illegal immigrants.

These folks are also being used to accelerate the illiteracy rate of the on coming generation in this country by overcrowding the school system with children who come from a culture were work is more important than education (study the enviorment they come from). These children will also grow up to assimilate in street life instead of educating themselves to a degree of self respect and civility that would help clean up their community. The following can be seen in their drop out rate which puts them and blacks neck and neck at the bottom of the barrel.

Immigrants will never get ahead in the work force because if they demand more money and benefits (if they have any), their bosses will just hire more immigrants who will undercut the old immigrants thus compounding the problem of a never ending growing population of illegals undercutting not only US citizens, but each-other.

The elite cannot succeed if they don't have the people who would settle for this crap. This is why along with many more reasons these folks are a danger. This has nothing to do with race but rather ignorance on a high scale. These people do not understand that their marches, radio stations, pro immigrant tee-shirts, and a platform to speak on, is sponsored by corporations and the politicians that work for them.

What I would be interested in knowing from supporters of this crap is, how many is enough?

What in the blue hell is your limit?

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» So what's your answer? Posted by: SteveB
» RE: So what's your answer? Posted by: VisionQuest

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Pure, Unadulterated BS . . . And With A Crashing Economy???
[Report this comment]
Posted by: MAD on May 22, 2007 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This isn't reform and any pretense at forming a *snicker* "guest worker" program will only end in more people overstaying their visas. The "once you're in, you're in" mentality will persist as illegals know the US government hasn't the time, money nor inclination to enforce these laws.

All this legislation does is allow for a continual flow of people entering the US, most of whom will remain after their prescribed period has ended. Oh, and good luck getting that $5k. I can't wait to see how they're going to enforce that. No drivers licenses or SS cards for those who don't comply? Women will still get pregnant and men will still impregnate women in order to get permanent status and so goes the whole, rotten ball of wax.

So, in conclusion, we are necessarily going to create a new branch of gubmint called the "US Dept. of Latino Pay n' Stay" working in close partnership with the thousands upon thousands of immigration stormtroopers who will galavant about the country, hunting down those employers who continue to higher illegal immigrants. Yeah, right! Worked extremely well in the past. Given this government's exceptional level of incompetence and mendaciousness, what makes anyone think that ANY of this will go according to plan? Gosh, I wonder how *rolls eyes* stiff those new and improved penalties will be? Has anyone actually seen anything detailing the fines these scumbags would be hit with? I haven't. I bet the fine jumps from $100 to at least $150 per head.

The economy is headed down the crapper and we feel the need to bring more people on board an already sinking ship? Shit, no problem!! Bring your esposa and abuelos, then proceed to have 4 or more kids! Sounds grrrreat!!! Yeah, I know I'm a racist cuz I think it's irresponsible to continue to allow religious freaks (we already have our fair share) who procreate like rabbits to enter the country on any kind of visa. What are we doing to actually stem the flow of people by the way? Oh, right - sorry. Guest worker programs are sure to keep them out - silly me! Sigh . . .

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Legal vs. "illegal"
[Report this comment]
Posted by: SteveB on May 22, 2007 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My grandparents came here from Ireland, and what they did wasn't one bit different from what today's "illegals" are doing. They didn't get on a waiting list, they didn't have to "prove" they could support their families once they were here, they didn't have to pay thousands of dollars in fees. They got off the boat, were working the next day, and two generations later, here I am.

So if my grandparents' behavior was no different than that of today's "illegals", what changed in the past 70 years? We changed the law. We created "illegal" immigration, by making behavior that was once legal illegal. I'd compare it to our absurd "war on drugs", where behavior that millions engage in without harming anyone is declared "illegal", so now we have millions of "criminals" to fill our jails with.

Sure, we need to have some laws regarding immigration, and we should all try to figure out what those laws should be, in an environment as free of anti-immigrant hysteria as possible. But let's please dispense with the silly belief that calling today's immigrants "illegal" is some kind of persuasive argument.

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» Good point but ... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Good point but ... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» nice double standard Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: Joshua Holland
» No, you're moving the goalposts ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» strawman Posted by: YogiBear
» Realistic reform Posted by: Lesha
» RE: ealistic reform Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Good point! Posted by: bugs

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Mexico has tight regulations on immigration, as do most countries in the world- except the USA.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on May 22, 2007 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mexico requires proof of financial responsibility (even for tourists), a visa if you are from 'poor' countries, work permit, special 'fees' for a foreigner to own property (prior to a few years ago it was totally illegal for a foreigner to own property), health checks, and require auto insurance (even for visitors). You can find all the rules on the Mexican consulate's webpage or at their embassy.
However, when Mexicans (and other immigrants)come into the USA they expect:
1) the right to not have auto insurance or a driver's license
2) the right to free health care, but no health screening at the border for TB, HIV/Aids, flus, etc.
3) the right to work without any qualifications and at wages that undercut our minimum wage and worker safety laws.
4) the right to have everything printed, and explained, to them in their native language, as opposed to English.
5) the right to free schools for their children (when they aren't being exploited by working in fields or cleaning houses)
Rules, and expectations like this, would be considered ridiculous in Europe, or indeed in Mexico itself, but for the USA it is rascist if you think immigration should be controlled.

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What about Poor Americans
[Report this comment]
Posted by: DrSuess on May 22, 2007 8:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I feel for the immigrants- they are fleeing misfortune and poor job opportunities at home. But what the entire immigration debate on television misses is that we have poor here at home. The unemployment rate among African Americans is completely uncounted- but may be as high as 50%. By driving down wages, which is why big businesses want immigrants- you destroy the impulse of poor Americans to find meaningful work. I have personally seen instances where a 45 year old man hunted for work for months- rejected again and again by employers who wanted “younger” workers. In many cases he was rejected by employers who had a totally foreign workforce. There is a huge number of Americans who have “dropped” off the job bandwagon. They are invisible- and are often absorbed by Welfare and Disability. However, as these programs are cut by the current administration- the lot of Americas displaced workers grows worse.
There is a plot among the news media to deny that there is any unemployment in America. I have heard people in the news media steadily deny that anyone has trouble finding a job in America. This is a total lie. When the housing market finally finishes crashing- it will reveal how much manufacturing has left the country. The housing market has absorbed many of the displaced factory workers. Now, they have no where to turn.
America has lost so many manufacturing jobs- that flipping hamburgers had to be reclassified as “manufacturing” to disguise the number.
Big business is the driving force behind bringing immigrants into America. They want to use these people as a club to cut Americans salary by half so that the boss can spend more time in the Bahamas with his multimillion dollar salary.
I cannot support the immigrants coming into America at a time of high unemployment. I know that this statement is completely contrary to what the press preaches with its “full employment”. But I will not listen to the press and ignore the witness of my own eyes. America has a poverty problem also.

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» RE: What about Poor Americans Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Wow Joshua, Posted by: anotheropinion
» RE: What about Poor Americans Posted by: cmaciain
» Apples and Oranges Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: ishkabibble

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Wake up, Drones!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: paschn on May 22, 2007 8:54 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You silly - asses still amaze me even at 60. Your invasion and mass murder of 700 thousand and counting was silly enough, but now you beat your chests about immigration reform. How pathetic you all are.
What brings these poor souls here? Jobs and money. Who gives em jobs and money and why? The ones who benefit the MOST from their cheap labor. SO, here's the TOUGH part, ( you friggin morons), You enforce MANDATORY prison terms! Not against the poor saps just doing what ANY human would do faced with watching his loved ones suffer from an oligarchy, ( coming soon to THIS country). You ENFORCE a set of prison sentences for the GREEDY, EVIL Blood sucking U.S. bastards that HIRE em. First offense,...90 days served NOT in club Fed, but in the same prisons you common idiots do time. Second offense,...180 days....third offense? three years and confiscation of a percentage of their PERSONAL wealth and dissolving of the parent "patriotic" corporation responsible. Like Willie said...there's a right way to immigrate. Don't punish them for wanting a better life for themselves and their loved ones, you assholes, punish the bastards who SCREW 'em as they do us for crissakes!!

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» Watch Bush go after Wal-Mart Posted by: DataDoc

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The immigration bill ignores human nature.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: TheTruthSeeker on May 22, 2007 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There isn’t one member of Congress or the Bush administration who understands what poverty is really like.

I haven't been poor either, but yours truly has an active imagination. And it doesn’t take too many brains cells to picture myself in Mexico, working for 10 cents an hour when friends and relatives of mine who entered America illegally are wiring back bucks by the bucketful.

Now, incredibly in my sun-baked peon mind, tried of eating refried beans and working my brown-skinned ass off to survive, the gringos up north are giving away green cards and a chance for U.S. citizenship.

Will I drop my hoe and head for the border anytime soon? How about right NOW!

Adios Mexico, hello USA. Here comes Speedy Gonzales -- and millions of other peons just like me.

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» Nobody is censoring you... Posted by: anotheropinion
» We are all peons. Posted by: veggiegrrrl

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Poor Americans? Give me a break.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: peace&honesty on May 22, 2007 9:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone deserves a shot in this country and we were all imigrants at one time or another in our not so distant past...

I really dislike hearing people that think they are so much more special because they were lucky just to be born in the United States... and ironically calling yourself an ¨American¨ includes Mexico, Central, and South AMERICANS... Please title your posts appropriately.

I grew up poor in the US. At least I thought so until I travelled through Mexico and especially Central America... Poor in the US, with few exceptions, means you only get one bag of doritos a week, only 5 two liters of Dr. Pepper a week, and you only have 2 televisions instead of three... Anyone who cries ¨poor me¨ as they post a reply from their brand new Dell and DSL connection is a joke...

There are families that can't eat for weeks, or can only afford rice and beans, barely enough to survive... There are families that are split apart at the seams, half of them legally in the US, half of them trapped in Mexico because of ridiculous laws now in effect (and to become worse) barely being able to survive... Women and children are dying, or worse, being rapped and kidnapped trying to cross the border with coyotes just so they can join their family in the States... I personally know a family that the mother and child are considering a run over the border with a coyote... It's not right!

Unfortunately most US citizens don't give a rat's ass about anyone but themselves. It's only about who they think is standing in the way of them getting that new toy, tv, or car.

¨I feel sorry for the poor imigrants, but what about me!¨--- Give me a f'n break.

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Read the following article
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ReallyBearish on May 22, 2007 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.prudentbear.com/articles/show/2020

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Notice how ...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Joshua Holland on May 22, 2007 2:27 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nobody on this thread is really discussing the details of this latest immigration bill -- the subject of this article?

If you're wondering why it's so hard to get a good immigration reform law passed, that should help explain it.

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» Why? Posted by: xconservative
» I think the bill is a good compromise Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» but maybe you should send Dorgan a memo too Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma

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Make a profit and end illegal immigration
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Posted by: vertical on May 22, 2007 3:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We could end illegal immigration tommorow by finning and arresting those who hire them. I say the first offence should cost someone one month's income; a second offence would cost them a year's income and a third offense would land them in prison for a year. The goverment could make a bundle on fines and illegals would have no jobs, so they would have to go back to where they came from. In addition, all those animals facing extinction because their access to water was cut off by the fence would be saved.

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» Still waiting... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» False dichotomy Posted by: brunowe

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Check out alternet.org/story/51889/?cID=661832
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on May 22, 2007 6:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
check out alternet.org/story/51889/?cID=661832

notice the photo .... bumperstickers saying "YO SOY EL ARMY."

i get it now... our government wants mexicans to fight and die in the next war over oil and water.....

watch! just watch! next will come mandatory military service for immigrants under the age of 40...

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» more of the same Posted by: AdamG

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Anothe reason to impeach George W. Bush
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 23, 2007 1:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Reference: "The Impeachment of George W. Bush"
by Elizabeth Holtzman, former Congresswoman and
member of the Nixon impeachment panel; copyright 2006
George W. Bush has refused to enforce the laws already on
the books regarding illegal aliens/"immigrants". The law
already requires George W. Bush to arrest people and
companies who employ illegal aliens/"immigrants".
Refusal to carry out a law is grounds for impeachment of a
president. George W. Bush should be impeached
immediately for this and many other high crimes
2. The reason George W. Bush allows illegal immigration
is that his "base" of rich people want to violate labor laws
with impunity, bust unions and lower wages. Illegals
cannot enforce labor laws. For example, meat packers can
run the packing line so fast with illegal workers that manure
gets spattered onto your meat. You DO like bacteria with
your meat, don't you? The idea that there are jobs
Americans won't do is a myth and propaganda. The
"problem" is that with legal workers, you have to obey
labor laws and pay a legal wage.
3. Allowing illegal aliens/"immigrants" to stay here will not
reduce the suffering of those left in the country they came
from. Research has shown that when we give free food to
poor countries the result is INCREASED suffering and
starvation. Parents in those countries have More children
they can't feed and then tell the extra children to go sneak
into the US. The stockholders of ADM, Cargill and
General Grain thank you for your donation. The same is
true with illegal aliens/"immigrants". The more we allow,
the more overbreeding happens in the poor country they
come from because sneaking into the US provides a genetic
and economic advantage to the sneaker's parents. It is
necessary to understand what is possible and what is not
possible. There is nothing we can do about poverty in
other countries.
4. ALL countries are countries of immigrants, even African
countries where our species originated. Waves of people
from Asia went Back to Africa. Of course, people from
anywhere else originally came from Africa, it is only a
matter of When. The "We are a nation of immigrants"
argument is therefore irrelevant. All countries, even the
US, have the right to control immigration. The question is
whether or not such immigration benefits the majority of
people who are already there. Excess and illegal
immigration benefits the few at the expense of the many.
5. Do you want to work for a nickel a day? If we let in
everybody who wants to come, the US will be as
overpopulated as India and we will be the poorest country
in the world.

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Illegal Immigrants...
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Posted by: bob t on May 23, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...are nothing more than cheap labor for the corporatocracy. But it is the american taxpayer who ultimately foots the bill for the REAL costs of illegals. Why would immigrant lawbreakers suddenly become law abiding when they broke the laws to sneak in while so many millions of immigrants have chosen to abide by our immigration laws.
Just try to sneak into Mexico and observe what happens. No other country in the world has immigration laws as bad as ours.

Actually the illegals do not have to worry about this new legislation because it will never be enforced. Chertoff will run it asa badle as he has run the department of Homeland Security for the fatherland.

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How would they handle this in a civilized country like...Syria?
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Posted by: SteveB on May 23, 2007 6:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because of the U.S. invasion and destruction of Iraq, millions of Iraqi refugees have flooded into the neighboring countries of Jordan and Syria (the U.S. has admitted about two hundred refugees from Iraq).

At this point, one in every six people living in Jordan is an Iraqi refugee (comparable to an influx of 50 million people into the U.S.). Jordan is a poor country, or at least poor compared to the U.S., but they have welcomed these refugees and made an effort to provide for them, as best they can.

Now compare the behavior of the Jordanians and the Syrians with the anti-immigrant hysteria we see here, in the richest country in the world, in response to the presence of 12 million "illegal" immigrants in a country of 300 million people.

People who study patterns of charitable giving have found that poor people consistently give a larger share of their income to charity, while the rich tend to be (at least proportionally) more selfish. It seems this pattern also applies to countries.

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Mexico...
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Posted by: bob t on May 23, 2007 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is run by 15 families who own 90% of the wealth of Mexico. America is run by the 8100 families who control 90% of the wealth of America.

The illegal immigration laws being proposed, even if they are enacted, will never be enforced.

In a perfect world or at least a much better world than we have now there would be no need for fences. But we live in a very imperfect and flawed world.

Illegal immigration is just another way to end the grand american experiment that is almost gone.

If we want it we had better wake up and get ready to fight for our country from the enemies within.

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» Thanks bob! Posted by: SteveB

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Immigration...
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Posted by: moll18 on May 23, 2007 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it that illegal Mexicans can come to this country and dictate what our country should do for them? Why aren't they doing this in their country for themselves? If their country is not providing for them, then stand up and say something, just as you did here. You cannot come to another country and tell them what they need to do for you unless you have done this in your own country first. They are doing the same things the Cubans are doing from here, trying to get us...the Americans...to do something about Cuba, meanwhile, they all ran over here taking the money with them and leaving the poor to fend for themselves there...shame on you. Fight your own battles. If you need help...ASK!
This is an invasion in our country and should be dealt with as such. If Bush and the boys are so interested in dealing with terrorism and telling us that we have to fight them there so they will not follow us home here, then his words are just as hollow as his head.
It is time to make employers who encourage these people to work here responsible for them. They are the ones who should be accountable to make sure when they come into this country to work for them, to also make sure they go out of the country when they are done...after all isn't globalization what Bush said was a good thing for this country? However, the "slave wages" they now pay will have to stop. We no longer allow slavery in this country and these employers will have to pay according to federal standards. This will also create the much needed jobs we do not seem to have anymore, since they take the jobs ($10-$20/hr jobs) that Americans will not do, by employing people to enforce our laws. If you are here legally then you have nothing to fear from our laws and should welcome any legislation that encourages enforcement. This protects all of us, our economy, our wages and our country.
The jumping of the line as a path to citizenship cannot and should not be allowed to lawbreakers. You cannot guarantee anyone not a citizen the "American Dream" if our own people aren't guaranteed it first. And yes, English is the language of this country and should be required of ALL who reside here. Anyone who came here long ago assimilated just fine and would never question the rules of a country they wished to become a part of.
Puerto Ricans are the only American Hispanics in this country and they have been put on the back burner for too many years, just as the Native Americans. It is time to give them their fair share of their country instead of being passed over time and time again. When was the last time you visited a Indian Reservation to see firsthand the squallor conditions they still live in? Not all of them live off of "casino money."
No one has a problem with immigrants who want to come to this country for a better life. The problem is the way they are coming into this country...illegally...and demanding that they should be accomodated above our citizens, this should end. What next? Giving terrorists the same accomodations by our government because they need a country to operate from? Our borders need to be secured first, our citizens should be accomodated second and all others will have to wait their turn...period. Our lawmakers should be working for the American people and it is time to show them just who is in charge.
Don't like that, go back home and dictate what your country can do for you.

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My God, how can anybody think there's racism involved?
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on May 23, 2007 1:50 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, there is an abundance of whining on these threads about how the poor immigration hardliners are called racists for no good reason.

But is there really no reason?

I always know I'm dealing with racism when the person discusses "Mexicans" or "Latinos" instead of immigrants. Clearly, they don't think about that hot British bartender down the street, or their Canadian buddy -- their image of an immigrant is always some brown person from Mexico. Now, it's true that Mexican-born immigrants represent the largest nationality of foreign-born in the U.S., but of the 33 million total, only 9.9 million, or 30 percent, are from Mexico.

Similarly, when people talk about "Latinos" that's pure racism -- many Latinos have been citizens of the U.S. for hundreds of years -- 70% of all Latino is the U.S. are either citizens or fully legal residents with papers intact.

If you can't tell the difference betwen Latinos, Mexicans and immigrants -- and you don't even realize you should -- then how can a reasonable person conclude anything other than that you're a racist?

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» RE: Maybe when they ignore the numbers Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Take your PC crap ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Good question... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» I'm not letting you frame the debate. Posted by: xconservative
» So you've done that poll? Posted by: xconservative
» You said you "know" Posted by: xconservative
» Don't bother with phony offers. Posted by: xconservative
» A "straw-man argument" if ever there was one Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Very poor parallel Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Very poor parallel Posted by: YogiBear

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Just for the record
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Posted by: brunowe on May 23, 2007 2:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do favor much of this legislation. I still have a problem with illegals being given a path to citizenship (as opposed to resident alien status) and would like to see something about stiffened enforcement against employers though.

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» RE: Just for the record Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Let's all pay their legal fees.
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Posted by: DinTN on May 23, 2007 4:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Finally, back to the bill.
According to one part of it, they will receive automatic "legal status". Period. No questions asked.
Next, if they commit a crime (any crime? rape? vehicular manslaughter? child molestation?) they will have two choices; one, they can "choose" to return to Mexico, and not be allowed to return to the U.S. or two, they can apply for a visa, hire a lawyer to represent them PAID FOR BY ME?

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Throw EMPLOYERS in jail if they hire illegals
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on May 23, 2007 4:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The jobs will dry up posthaste and we will be able to easily control our borders. Verifiable ID, actual jail time for failure to verify (rather than token fines) is the only way to get the situation under control.

I don't blame people who want to better themselves for coming here - I would too. The villians are the employers - and nobody is more afraid of jail.

Then who comes in and how long they stay becomes our decision.

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Jobs you say?
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Posted by: DinTN on May 23, 2007 6:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jobs? Everyone talks about the jobs lost to illegal aliens...I know. I have lost a half dozen to them.
Does anyone think about the thousands or maybe millions who don't even bother to work? Yes, there are plenty in my area that can't even use employment as an excuse to sneak into this country! It's money, yes, but the drugs that are sold around here and the burgularies for profit are outrageous!
What's next? A free ride visa for thieves and drug dealers?
We can't deport 12 to 20 million illegals! Why not? A hundred or so a day would certainly be a good start. The money the government would save in social services to those who should not qualify could easily be cashed in for a bus ticket!
Am I a bigot? NO. Am I a racist? NO. Am I sick of these people trashing my town? YES! Am I sick of these people receiving free madical care when I can't even afford medical insurance after working 40+ hours a week in a sweat shop? YES!
I don't care what anyone calls me...I'm sick of them and want them all gone!
So there.

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» Medical Care Posted by: veggiegrrrl

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HEY JOSH, DID YOU CENSOR EMBARRASSING REMARKS AGAIN?
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Posted by: Pat Kittle on May 24, 2007 1:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does the 1st Amendment mean anything to you??

Where's our exchange in which you bragged that you "spoke English"?

Your eagerness to censor me is most hypocritical, coming from a supposed fierce advocate of free speech such as yourself!

Never have I been obscene or threatening, yet you've repeatedly censored me merely for embarrassing you!

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» Isn't it there? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» He deleted one of mine too! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Too embarrassed to remove them a second time Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma

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What's left out
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Posted by: dlf on May 27, 2007 7:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The government can't punish those who aid and abet illegal immigrants, because they have written laws to fund religious institution's social programs through the US Census.
Further, I am always amazed that the same group that finds the business class so abhorent on many issues, shares their opinion that unfettered illegal immigration benefits the nation. This is an opinion shared by the dreaded WAL-MART. And while the religious right finds abortion a crime against God, they certainly have no problem with exploitation of the poor regardless of their status in the country. That is something they seem to share with those on the left who have thought no further than the ever changing talking points in support of mass amnesty. Also last year there was a sanction for those who didn't file taxes. This year there is none, in effect it pays to enter the country illegally. Effectively we have given amnesty to any illegal activity outside of rape, murder, and drug dealing to all persons who have entered the country illegally. This is a country that states that justice is blind and shall be dispensed without regard to race, religion, sex, national origin, or sexual preference, yet this bill states otherwise. It directly violates the 14th amendment, which states the rights of citizens shall not be abridged. My question to all is when did it become racist to expect your government to abide by the rules set forth in the Constitution?

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[Minor correction: Insert "of" in my previous title line.]
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Pat Kittle on May 27, 2007 4:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(Apology for typo)

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Alternet Comments:

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Lives, and plans, discarded... for what?
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Posted by: willie.horton on May 22, 2007 2:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am the native-born US citizen at the core of a family of immigrants.
I married a Russian woman in 2000. She obtained her US citizenship in 2004, and now her mother is here with a green card. Once she gets citizenship, her other daughter -- my wife's sister -- will apply for her visa, bringing her little son with her.
Our family takes part in a long tradition of family-based immigration: I "sponsored" my wife (signing an incredibly strict Affidavit of Support, financially guaranteeing that she would never end up receiving public assistance); she signed the same affidavit for her mother, who is now a cashier at the local Home Depot... and who will do the same for my sister-in-law. This is how families, and thriving immigrant enclaves, have entrenched themselves in the United States over the last century.
The latest bill, with its thinly-veiled "amnesty," will largely put an end to this by leapfrogging former illegals ahead in line and eliminating much family-based immigration. Family plans like ours, which take a decade or two to complete, will be smashed; people who broke our laws will be rewarded -- along with the employers who illegally supported and exploited them.
This plan isn't good for anybody who has obeyed the laws. Maybe that's why Bush likes it...

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There are laws then there are laws
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Posted by: solrev on May 22, 2007 4:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I was a Mexican living in Mexico, and I had to watch my children go to sleep starving, and I had the opportunity to cross a line in the sand so that my children could survive, I am going to jump the border. Any self-righteous American that would not do that because it is against the law, is not worth spit.

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» There ARE starving Africans so logically... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» What a shame... Posted by: SteveB
» Mexico is the 2nd FATTEST country in the world Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» I'm outta here... Posted by: SteveB
» RE: I'm outta here... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: I'm outta here... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Exactly SteveB Posted by: anotheropinion
» I agree with you on NAFTA Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Remember the Ethiopian famine? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» LISTEN! Posted by: anotheropinion
» Get Real Posted by: freeda'all

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Comprehensive plans don't make sense. Secure the borders first.
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Posted by: KeepsonTickn on May 22, 2007 4:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too many people are trying to force their agendas in one bill. We should make our borders secure. Then we can deal with immigrants who are here already.

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unfree
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Posted by: losingmyliberties on May 22, 2007 5:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Twenty one years ago they gave 3 million illegals citizenship,now they want to do it again . Another 12 million plus of law breakers,it will never stop.I thought this government didn't deal with terrorist . Let's adopt the government's substance laws, to this matter. Seize the business's that employ them, arrest all that deal with the law breakers. Because people in this country don't
care how the government treats people in the substance war.
Use all branches of law enforcement like they do in substance war, to stop the invasion . We do want to be fair right, liberty and justest for all.

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» RE: unfree Posted by: sausage
» RE: unfree Posted by: losingmyliberties
» If you're sincere... Posted by: SteveB
» Ever steal somebody's job? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: ver steal somebody's job? Posted by: losingmyliberties

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This editorial leaves something out
[Report this comment]
Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma on May 22, 2007 6:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where's all the pious guff about how controlling the border would be immoral?

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Immigration: the new "abortion"
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Posted by: sausage on May 22, 2007 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The business-school influenced, reactionary right does not want to change the status quo of "illegal" immigration at this time or in the foreseeable future. Why should it?

The current system, or more accurately non-system, of immigration law suits American "free market" capitalism to a "T." It is a long held business school mantra; labor is the only cost variable which management can totally control. Low wages equal high profits and stock prices. Toward that end, for the past twenty-five years, business has engaged in a winning strategy of union busting, global outsourcing and encouraging illegal immigration.

"Illegal" immigration and undocument workers translate to depressed wages in basic industries and for major stockholders, who add this also benefits the consumer, this is a good thing.

Congressional Republicans have no intention of enacting any kind of immigration reform. It's a surefire vote getter among middle class voters with its racist and xenophobic appeal.

"Illegal" immigration as an "issue" will be with us for a very long time, perhaps as long as the abortion "issue" has been with us. "Illegal" immigration propelled an obscure Congressional backbencher, Tom Tancredo, to national prominence. So look for more politicians, especially on the right, to cynically exploit voters and illegal immigrants by bloviating on the subject but do nothing to correct the situation.

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A California opinion
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on May 22, 2007 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a California opinion-
My ancestors immigrated from Russia and learned ENGLISH. California has already become a place of middle class to wealthy English Speakers (white, Asian, East Indian, etc...) and ghettos (an Italian word, by the way) full of non-English speaking folks.

Right now, in California, you can take your driver's license test in more languages than one person could ever learn. We allow voters to vote in Chinese and Spanish.

If we want all boats to float, we need a mandatory English policy for citizenship.

We can not continue to have an uneducated underclass.
Living in a country and not speaking the language will perpetuate the underclass.

Could any of us move to ...say....Thailand...and expect our kids to be educated in English, given free medical care in English, etc?

We would be expected to learn Thai, to support ourselves financially and we would never be entitled to handouts.

If we are going to continue, as a nation, to invite the planet to move to the USA, we need a common language to form a common vision.

I predict civil war in California within 30 years.

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» RE: A California opinion Posted by: sausage
» Let me clarify Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Let me clarify Posted by: PirateJesus

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P.S. Point based immigration systems are working in many countries
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on May 22, 2007 6:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S. Point based immigration systems are working in many countries like Canada, Australia, New Zealand (English speaking countries, coincidently).

We need highly educated people in our country. Our schools (especially in California) are totally "dumbed down" because our kids come from families where parents can't help kids with homework because they aren't fluent in English or never took math past 6th grade.

I'd rather see 50,000 solar and wind engineers invited to live and work here over 50,000 unskilled laborers.

As much as we need our lettuce picked, we need people who are employable at wages that reduce teen pregnancy, crime, drug use, gangs, welfare, etc...

Do we want to drain and deplete Social Security for the boomers by supporting millions of under-employed illegals?

I believe everyone should have access to a better life also...but LEGALLY. Assimilate. My ancestors did.

Melting pot? Fruit salad? Whatever you call it, it requires one thing- a common language so that we're all on the same page and there is more access to education and opportunity for all.

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» Social Security myth... Posted by: SteveB
» RE: Social Security myth -- hard data Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Social Security myth -- hard data Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Immigrants are a danger
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Posted by: Lesha on May 22, 2007 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is obvious that corporations should be the main target of protest being that they provide the source of work for illegal immigrants.


With the above being the source, immigrants are a danger not because of their ethnicity or work ethics, they are a danger because they are too willing (without knowing it) to settle for what scraps corporations will throw their way as far as wages are concern . These folks are being used to undercut most of this society and foolishly make the rich even richer while those in the middle are squeezed out.

These poor fools do not realize that they are allowed in this country in droves to help set up a society like Mexico where the rich controls over 90% of the wealth while the rest of their lower class fight for the scraps. The young men and children of these immigrants will be used to fight wars under the guise that they will be given citizenship in exchange for their service not knowing that their chances of survival are low. Right now about 60.000 of the troops in Iraq are illegal immigrants.

These folks are also being used to accelerate the illiteracy rate of the on coming generation in this country by overcrowding the school system with children who come from a culture were work is more important than education (study the enviorment they come from). These children will also grow up to assimilate in street life instead of educating themselves to a degree of self respect and civility that would help clean up their community. The following can be seen in their drop out rate which puts them and blacks neck and neck at the bottom of the barrel.

Immigrants will never get ahead in the work force because if they demand more money and benefits (if they have any), their bosses will just hire more immigrants who will undercut the old immigrants thus compounding the problem of a never ending growing population of illegals undercutting not only US citizens, but each-other.

The elite cannot succeed if they don't have the people who would settle for this crap. This is why along with many more reasons these folks are a danger. This has nothing to do with race but rather ignorance on a high scale. These people do not understand that their marches, radio stations, pro immigrant tee-shirts, and a platform to speak on, is sponsored by corporations and the politicians that work for them.

What I would be interested in knowing from supporters of this crap is, how many is enough?

What in the blue hell is your limit?

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» So what's your answer? Posted by: SteveB
» RE: So what's your answer? Posted by: VisionQuest

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Pure, Unadulterated BS . . . And With A Crashing Economy???
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Posted by: MAD on May 22, 2007 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This isn't reform and any pretense at forming a *snicker* "guest worker" program will only end in more people overstaying their visas. The "once you're in, you're in" mentality will persist as illegals know the US government hasn't the time, money nor inclination to enforce these laws.

All this legislation does is allow for a continual flow of people entering the US, most of whom will remain after their prescribed period has ended. Oh, and good luck getting that $5k. I can't wait to see how they're going to enforce that. No drivers licenses or SS cards for those who don't comply? Women will still get pregnant and men will still impregnate women in order to get permanent status and so goes the whole, rotten ball of wax.

So, in conclusion, we are necessarily going to create a new branch of gubmint called the "US Dept. of Latino Pay n' Stay" working in close partnership with the thousands upon thousands of immigration stormtroopers who will galavant about the country, hunting down those employers who continue to higher illegal immigrants. Yeah, right! Worked extremely well in the past. Given this government's exceptional level of incompetence and mendaciousness, what makes anyone think that ANY of this will go according to plan? Gosh, I wonder how *rolls eyes* stiff those new and improved penalties will be? Has anyone actually seen anything detailing the fines these scumbags would be hit with? I haven't. I bet the fine jumps from $100 to at least $150 per head.

The economy is headed down the crapper and we feel the need to bring more people on board an already sinking ship? Shit, no problem!! Bring your esposa and abuelos, then proceed to have 4 or more kids! Sounds grrrreat!!! Yeah, I know I'm a racist cuz I think it's irresponsible to continue to allow religious freaks (we already have our fair share) who procreate like rabbits to enter the country on any kind of visa. What are we doing to actually stem the flow of people by the way? Oh, right - sorry. Guest worker programs are sure to keep them out - silly me! Sigh . . .

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Legal vs. "illegal"
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Posted by: SteveB on May 22, 2007 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My grandparents came here from Ireland, and what they did wasn't one bit different from what today's "illegals" are doing. They didn't get on a waiting list, they didn't have to "prove" they could support their families once they were here, they didn't have to pay thousands of dollars in fees. They got off the boat, were working the next day, and two generations later, here I am.

So if my grandparents' behavior was no different than that of today's "illegals", what changed in the past 70 years? We changed the law. We created "illegal" immigration, by making behavior that was once legal illegal. I'd compare it to our absurd "war on drugs", where behavior that millions engage in without harming anyone is declared "illegal", so now we have millions of "criminals" to fill our jails with.

Sure, we need to have some laws regarding immigration, and we should all try to figure out what those laws should be, in an environment as free of anti-immigrant hysteria as possible. But let's please dispense with the silly belief that calling today's immigrants "illegal" is some kind of persuasive argument.

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» Good point but ... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Good point but ... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» nice double standard Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» RE: nice double standard Posted by: Joshua Holland
» No, you're moving the goalposts ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» strawman Posted by: YogiBear
» Realistic reform Posted by: Lesha
» RE: ealistic reform Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Good point! Posted by: bugs

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Mexico has tight regulations on immigration, as do most countries in the world- except the USA.
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Posted by: albrechtkrausse on May 22, 2007 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mexico requires proof of financial responsibility (even for tourists), a visa if you are from 'poor' countries, work permit, special 'fees' for a foreigner to own property (prior to a few years ago it was totally illegal for a foreigner to own property), health checks, and require auto insurance (even for visitors). You can find all the rules on the Mexican consulate's webpage or at their embassy.
However, when Mexicans (and other immigrants)come into the USA they expect:
1) the right to not have auto insurance or a driver's license
2) the right to free health care, but no health screening at the border for TB, HIV/Aids, flus, etc.
3) the right to work without any qualifications and at wages that undercut our minimum wage and worker safety laws.
4) the right to have everything printed, and explained, to them in their native language, as opposed to English.
5) the right to free schools for their children (when they aren't being exploited by working in fields or cleaning houses)
Rules, and expectations like this, would be considered ridiculous in Europe, or indeed in Mexico itself, but for the USA it is rascist if you think immigration should be controlled.

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What about Poor Americans
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Posted by: DrSuess on May 22, 2007 8:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I feel for the immigrants- they are fleeing misfortune and poor job opportunities at home. But what the entire immigration debate on television misses is that we have poor here at home. The unemployment rate among African Americans is completely uncounted- but may be as high as 50%. By driving down wages, which is why big businesses want immigrants- you destroy the impulse of poor Americans to find meaningful work. I have personally seen instances where a 45 year old man hunted for work for months- rejected again and again by employers who wanted “younger” workers. In many cases he was rejected by employers who had a totally foreign workforce. There is a huge number of Americans who have “dropped” off the job bandwagon. They are invisible- and are often absorbed by Welfare and Disability. However, as these programs are cut by the current administration- the lot of Americas displaced workers grows worse.
There is a plot among the news media to deny that there is any unemployment in America. I have heard people in the news media steadily deny that anyone has trouble finding a job in America. This is a total lie. When the housing market finally finishes crashing- it will reveal how much manufacturing has left the country. The housing market has absorbed many of the displaced factory workers. Now, they have no where to turn.
America has lost so many manufacturing jobs- that flipping hamburgers had to be reclassified as “manufacturing” to disguise the number.
Big business is the driving force behind bringing immigrants into America. They want to use these people as a club to cut Americans salary by half so that the boss can spend more time in the Bahamas with his multimillion dollar salary.
I cannot support the immigrants coming into America at a time of high unemployment. I know that this statement is completely contrary to what the press preaches with its “full employment”. But I will not listen to the press and ignore the witness of my own eyes. America has a poverty problem also.

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» RE: What about Poor Americans Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Wow Joshua, Posted by: anotheropinion
» RE: What about Poor Americans Posted by: cmaciain
» Apples and Oranges Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Apples and Oranges Posted by: ishkabibble

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Wake up, Drones!
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Posted by: paschn on May 22, 2007 8:54 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You silly - asses still amaze me even at 60. Your invasion and mass murder of 700 thousand and counting was silly enough, but now you beat your chests about immigration reform. How pathetic you all are.
What brings these poor souls here? Jobs and money. Who gives em jobs and money and why? The ones who benefit the MOST from their cheap labor. SO, here's the TOUGH part, ( you friggin morons), You enforce MANDATORY prison terms! Not against the poor saps just doing what ANY human would do faced with watching his loved ones suffer from an oligarchy, ( coming soon to THIS country). You ENFORCE a set of prison sentences for the GREEDY, EVIL Blood sucking U.S. bastards that HIRE em. First offense,...90 days served NOT in club Fed, but in the same prisons you common idiots do time. Second offense,...180 days....third offense? three years and confiscation of a percentage of their PERSONAL wealth and dissolving of the parent "patriotic" corporation responsible. Like Willie said...there's a right way to immigrate. Don't punish them for wanting a better life for themselves and their loved ones, you assholes, punish the bastards who SCREW 'em as they do us for crissakes!!

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» Watch Bush go after Wal-Mart Posted by: DataDoc

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The immigration bill ignores human nature.
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Posted by: TheTruthSeeker on May 22, 2007 9:42 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There isn’t one member of Congress or the Bush administration who understands what poverty is really like.

I haven't been poor either, but yours truly has an active imagination. And it doesn’t take too many brains cells to picture myself in Mexico, working for 10 cents an hour when friends and relatives of mine who entered America illegally are wiring back bucks by the bucketful.

Now, incredibly in my sun-baked peon mind, tried of eating refried beans and working my brown-skinned ass off to survive, the gringos up north are giving away green cards and a chance for U.S. citizenship.

Will I drop my hoe and head for the border anytime soon? How about right NOW!

Adios Mexico, hello USA. Here comes Speedy Gonzales -- and millions of other peons just like me.

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» Nobody is censoring you... Posted by: anotheropinion
» We are all peons. Posted by: veggiegrrrl

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Poor Americans? Give me a break.
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Posted by: peace&honesty on May 22, 2007 9:58 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone deserves a shot in this country and we were all imigrants at one time or another in our not so distant past...

I really dislike hearing people that think they are so much more special because they were lucky just to be born in the United States... and ironically calling yourself an ¨American¨ includes Mexico, Central, and South AMERICANS... Please title your posts appropriately.

I grew up poor in the US. At least I thought so until I travelled through Mexico and especially Central America... Poor in the US, with few exceptions, means you only get one bag of doritos a week, only 5 two liters of Dr. Pepper a week, and you only have 2 televisions instead of three... Anyone who cries ¨poor me¨ as they post a reply from their brand new Dell and DSL connection is a joke...

There are families that can't eat for weeks, or can only afford rice and beans, barely enough to survive... There are families that are split apart at the seams, half of them legally in the US, half of them trapped in Mexico because of ridiculous laws now in effect (and to become worse) barely being able to survive... Women and children are dying, or worse, being rapped and kidnapped trying to cross the border with coyotes just so they can join their family in the States... I personally know a family that the mother and child are considering a run over the border with a coyote... It's not right!

Unfortunately most US citizens don't give a rat's ass about anyone but themselves. It's only about who they think is standing in the way of them getting that new toy, tv, or car.

¨I feel sorry for the poor imigrants, but what about me!¨--- Give me a f'n break.

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Read the following article
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on May 22, 2007 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.prudentbear.com/articles/show/2020

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Notice how ...
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on May 22, 2007 2:27 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nobody on this thread is really discussing the details of this latest immigration bill -- the subject of this article?

If you're wondering why it's so hard to get a good immigration reform law passed, that should help explain it.

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» Why? Posted by: xconservative
» I think the bill is a good compromise Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» but maybe you should send Dorgan a memo too Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma

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Make a profit and end illegal immigration
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Posted by: vertical on May 22, 2007 3:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We could end illegal immigration tommorow by finning and arresting those who hire them. I say the first offence should cost someone one month's income; a second offence would cost them a year's income and a third offense would land them in prison for a year. The goverment could make a bundle on fines and illegals would have no jobs, so they would have to go back to where they came from. In addition, all those animals facing extinction because their access to water was cut off by the fence would be saved.

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» Still waiting... Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» False dichotomy Posted by: brunowe

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Check out alternet.org/story/51889/?cID=661832
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on May 22, 2007 6:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
check out alternet.org/story/51889/?cID=661832

notice the photo .... bumperstickers saying "YO SOY EL ARMY."

i get it now... our government wants mexicans to fight and die in the next war over oil and water.....

watch! just watch! next will come mandatory military service for immigrants under the age of 40...

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» more of the same Posted by: AdamG

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Anothe reason to impeach George W. Bush
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on May 23, 2007 1:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Reference: "The Impeachment of George W. Bush"
by Elizabeth Holtzman, former Congresswoman and
member of the Nixon impeachment panel; copyright 2006
George W. Bush has refused to enforce the laws already on
the books regarding illegal aliens/"immigrants". The law
already requires George W. Bush to arrest people and
companies who employ illegal aliens/"immigrants".
Refusal to carry out a law is grounds for impeachment of a
president. George W. Bush should be impeached
immediately for this and many other high crimes
2. The reason George W. Bush allows illegal immigration
is that his "base" of rich people want to violate labor laws
with impunity, bust unions and lower wages. Illegals
cannot enforce labor laws. For example, meat packers can
run the packing line so fast with illegal workers that manure
gets spattered onto your meat. You DO like bacteria with
your meat, don't you? The idea that there are jobs
Americans won't do is a myth and propaganda. The
"problem" is that with legal workers, you have to obey
labor laws and pay a legal wage.
3. Allowing illegal aliens/"immigrants" to stay here will not
reduce the suffering of those left in the country they came
from. Research has shown that when we give free food to
poor countries the result is INCREASED suffering and
starvation. Parents in those countries have More children
they can't feed and then tell the extra children to go sneak
into the US. The stockholders of ADM, Cargill and
General Grain thank you for your donation. The same is
true with illegal aliens/"immigrants". The more we allow,
the more overbreeding happens in the poor country they
come from because sneaking into the US provides a genetic
and economic advantage to the sneaker's parents. It is
necessary to understand what is possible and what is not
possible. There is nothing we can do about poverty in
other countries.
4. ALL countries are countries of immigrants, even African
countries where our species originated. Waves of people
from Asia went Back to Africa. Of course, people from
anywhere else originally came from Africa, it is only a
matter of When. The "We are a nation of immigrants"
argument is therefore irrelevant. All countries, even the
US, have the right to control immigration. The question is
whether or not such immigration benefits the majority of
people who are already there. Excess and illegal
immigration benefits the few at the expense of the many.
5. Do you want to work for a nickel a day? If we let in
everybody who wants to come, the US will be as
overpopulated as India and we will be the poorest country
in the world.

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Illegal Immigrants...
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Posted by: bob t on May 23, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...are nothing more than cheap labor for the corporatocracy. But it is the american taxpayer who ultimately foots the bill for the REAL costs of illegals. Why would immigrant lawbreakers suddenly become law abiding when they broke the laws to sneak in while so many millions of immigrants have chosen to abide by our immigration laws.
Just try to sneak into Mexico and observe what happens. No other country in the world has immigration laws as bad as ours.

Actually the illegals do not have to worry about this new legislation because it will never be enforced. Chertoff will run it asa badle as he has run the department of Homeland Security for the fatherland.

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How would they handle this in a civilized country like...Syria?
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Posted by: SteveB on May 23, 2007 6:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because of the U.S. invasion and destruction of Iraq, millions of Iraqi refugees have flooded into the neighboring countries of Jordan and Syria (the U.S. has admitted about two hundred refugees from Iraq).

At this point, one in every six people living in Jordan is an Iraqi refugee (comparable to an influx of 50 million people into the U.S.). Jordan is a poor country, or at least poor compared to the U.S., but they have welcomed these refugees and made an effort to provide for them, as best they can.

Now compare the behavior of the Jordanians and the Syrians with the anti-immigrant hysteria we see here, in the richest country in the world, in response to the presence of 12 million "illegal" immigrants in a country of 300 million people.

People who study patterns of charitable giving have found that poor people consistently give a larger share of their income to charity, while the rich tend to be (at least proportionally) more selfish. It seems this pattern also applies to countries.

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Mexico...
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Posted by: bob t on May 23, 2007 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is run by 15 families who own 90% of the wealth of Mexico. America is run by the 8100 families who control 90% of the wealth of America.

The illegal immigration laws being proposed, even if they are enacted, will never be enforced.

In a perfect world or at least a much better world than we have now there would be no need for fences. But we live in a very imperfect and flawed world.

Illegal immigration is just another way to end the grand american experiment that is almost gone.

If we want it we had better wake up and get ready to fight for our country from the enemies within.

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» Thanks bob! Posted by: SteveB

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Immigration...
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Posted by: moll18 on May 23, 2007 12:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is it that illegal Mexicans can come to this country and dictate what our country should do for them? Why aren't they doing this in their country for themselves? If their country is not providing for them, then stand up and say something, just as you did here. You cannot come to another country and tell them what they need to do for you unless you have done this in your own country first. They are doing the same things the Cubans are doing from here, trying to get us...the Americans...to do something about Cuba, meanwhile, they all ran over here taking the money with them and leaving the poor to fend for themselves there...shame on you. Fight your own battles. If you need help...ASK!
This is an invasion in our country and should be dealt with as such. If Bush and the boys are so interested in dealing with terrorism and telling us that we have to fight them there so they will not follow us home here, then his words are just as hollow as his head.
It is time to make employers who encourage these people to work here responsible for them. They are the ones who should be accountable to make sure when they come into this country to work for them, to also make sure they go out of the country when they are done...after all isn't globalization what Bush said was a good thing for this country? However, the "slave wages" they now pay will have to stop. We no longer allow slavery in this country and these employers will have to pay according to federal standards. This will also create the much needed jobs we do not seem to have anymore, since they take the jobs ($10-$20/hr jobs) that Americans will not do, by employing people to enforce our laws. If you are here legally then you have nothing to fear from our laws and should welcome any legislation that encourages enforcement. This protects all of us, our economy, our wages and our country.
The jumping of the line as a path to citizenship cannot and should not be allowed to lawbreakers. You cannot guarantee anyone not a citizen the "American Dream" if our own people aren't guaranteed it first. And yes, English is the language of this country and should be required of ALL who reside here. Anyone who came here long ago assimilated just fine and would never question the rules of a country they wished to become a part of.
Puerto Ricans are the only American Hispanics in this country and they have been put on the back burner for too many years, just as the Native Americans. It is time to give them their fair share of their country instead of being passed over time and time again. When was the last time you visited a Indian Reservation to see firsthand the squallor conditions they still live in? Not all of them live off of "casino money."
No one has a problem with immigrants who want to come to this country for a better life. The problem is the way they are coming into this country...illegally...and demanding that they should be accomodated above our citizens, this should end. What next? Giving terrorists the same accomodations by our government because they need a country to operate from? Our borders need to be secured first, our citizens should be accomodated second and all others will have to wait their turn...period. Our lawmakers should be working for the American people and it is time to show them just who is in charge.
Don't like that, go back home and dictate what your country can do for you.

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My God, how can anybody think there's racism involved?
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Posted by: Joshua Holland on May 23, 2007 1:50 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh, there is an abundance of whining on these threads about how the poor immigration hardliners are called racists for no good reason.

But is there really no reason?

I always know I'm dealing with racism when the person discusses "Mexicans" or "Latinos" instead of immigrants. Clearly, they don't think about that hot British bartender down the street, or their Canadian buddy -- their image of an immigrant is always some brown person from Mexico. Now, it's true that Mexican-born immigrants represent the largest nationality of foreign-born in the U.S., but of the 33 million total, only 9.9 million, or 30 percent, are from Mexico.

Similarly, when people talk about "Latinos" that's pure racism -- many Latinos have been citizens of the U.S. for hundreds of years -- 70% of all Latino is the U.S. are either citizens or fully legal residents with papers intact.

If you can't tell the difference betwen Latinos, Mexicans and immigrants -- and you don't even realize you should -- then how can a reasonable person conclude anything other than that you're a racist?

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» RE: Maybe when they ignore the numbers Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Take your PC crap ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Good question... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» I'm not letting you frame the debate. Posted by: xconservative
» So you've done that poll? Posted by: xconservative
» You said you "know" Posted by: xconservative
» Don't bother with phony offers. Posted by: xconservative
» A "straw-man argument" if ever there was one Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Very poor parallel Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Very poor parallel Posted by: YogiBear

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Just for the record
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Posted by: brunowe on May 23, 2007 2:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do favor much of this legislation. I still have a problem with illegals being given a path to citizenship (as opposed to resident alien status) and would like to see something about stiffened enforcement against employers though.

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» RE: Just for the record Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Let's all pay their legal fees.
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Posted by: DinTN on May 23, 2007 4:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Finally, back to the bill.
According to one part of it, they will receive automatic "legal status". Period. No questions asked.
Next, if they commit a crime (any crime? rape? vehicular manslaughter? child molestation?) they will have two choices; one, they can "choose" to return to Mexico, and not be allowed to return to the U.S. or two, they can apply for a visa, hire a lawyer to represent them PAID FOR BY ME?

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Throw EMPLOYERS in jail if they hire illegals
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on May 23, 2007 4:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The jobs will dry up posthaste and we will be able to easily control our borders. Verifiable ID, actual jail time for failure to verify (rather than token fines) is the only way to get the situation under control.

I don't blame people who want to better themselves for coming here - I would too. The villians are the employers - and nobody is more afraid of jail.

Then who comes in and how long they stay becomes our decision.

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Jobs you say?
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Posted by: DinTN on May 23, 2007 6:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jobs? Everyone talks about the jobs lost to illegal aliens...I know. I have lost a half dozen to them.
Does anyone think about the thousands or maybe millions who don't even bother to work? Yes, there are plenty in my area that can't even use employment as an excuse to sneak into this country! It's money, yes, but the drugs that are sold around here and the burgularies for profit are outrageous!
What's next? A free ride visa for thieves and drug dealers?
We can't deport 12 to 20 million illegals! Why not? A hundred or so a day would certainly be a good start. The money the government would save in social services to those who should not qualify could easily be cashed in for a bus ticket!
Am I a bigot? NO. Am I a racist? NO. Am I sick of these people trashing my town? YES! Am I sick of these people receiving free madical care when I can't even afford medical insurance after working 40+ hours a week in a sweat shop? YES!
I don't care what anyone calls me...I'm sick of them and want them all gone!
So there.

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» Medical Care Posted by: veggiegrrrl

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HEY JOSH, DID YOU CENSOR EMBARRASSING REMARKS AGAIN?
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Posted by: Pat Kittle on May 24, 2007 1:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does the 1st Amendment mean anything to you??

Where's our exchange in which you bragged that you "spoke English"?

Your eagerness to censor me is most hypocritical, coming from a supposed fierce advocate of free speech such as yourself!

Never have I been obscene or threatening, yet you've repeatedly censored me merely for embarrassing you!

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» Isn't it there? Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» He deleted one of mine too! Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma
» Too embarrassed to remove them a second time Posted by: karma_ran_over_dogma

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What's left out
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Posted by: dlf on May 27, 2007 7:32 AM   
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The government can't punish those who aid and abet illegal immigrants, because they have written laws to fund religious institution's social programs through the US Census.
Further, I am always amazed that the same group that finds the business class so abhorent on many issues, shares their opinion that unfettered illegal immigration benefits the nation. This is an opinion shared by the dreaded WAL-MART. And while the religious right finds abortion a crime against God, they certainly have no problem with exploitation of the poor regardless of their status in the country. That is something they seem to share with those on the left who have thought no further than the ever changing talking points in support of mass amnesty. Also last year there was a sanction for those who didn't file taxes. This year there is none, in effect it pays to enter the country illegally. Effectively we have given amnesty to any illegal activity outside of rape, murder, and drug dealing to all persons who have entered the country illegally. This is a country that states that justice is blind and shall be dispensed without regard to race, religion, sex, national origin, or sexual preference, yet this bill states otherwise. It directly violates the 14th amendment, which states the rights of citizens shall not be abridged. My question to all is when did it become racist to expect your government to abide by the rules set forth in the Constitution?

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[Minor correction: Insert "of" in my previous title line.]
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Posted by: Pat Kittle on May 27, 2007 4:35 PM   
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(Apology for typo)

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