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Rights and Liberties

What I Think About Guns

By Jane Smiley, Huffington Post. Posted April 18, 2007.


Americans will always have guns. But it would be nice if the gun-toting right wing admitted that there is a price we pay.
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Some years ago, I was talking to a man about guns. At the time, I didn't really know anyone with guns (still don't), but he did. He had had guns himself. He said, "I gave my gun away, because when I had it, every time something happened that made me mad, my mind would start circling around that gun, and I would be thinking about using it. So I got rid of it and I'm glad I did."

Right up front I will say that I am opposed to casual gun ownership, but I also realize that Americans will always have guns. Period. It's a national fetish. But the mental state my interlocutor was describing years ago is the price we have to pay, along with, of course, the accidental deaths of children and other unprepared and careless people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and in proximity to the wrong gun.

What I would like is for the gun-toting right wing to admit that there is a price we pay, that senseless accidental deaths and traumas are a national cost and that it's not so clear that it's worth it, but hey, we pay it anyway because so many guns are in the hands of so many people that there would never be any getting rid of them.

I would like the right wing to admit that guns are not "good" and that the right to bear arms is not an absolute virtue and that the deaths in the US caused by guns are at least as problematic, philosophically, as abortion. But I'm not holding my breath.

I hadn't intended to write about guns today -- my original source of outrage was the op-ed in the New York Times that related the saga of Georgia Thompson, who worked for the State of Wisconsin. In the course of doing her job, she put the state's travel business out for bids. She chose the lowest bidder, but because, unbeknownst to her, the travel agency making that bid had donated to the Democratic candidate, the Republican campaign accused her of corruption, and -- pay attention, this is the scary part -- the federal prosecuting attorney drummed up a case against her, and got her put in jail. Right before the election. As part of the Republican gubernatorial campaign.

Imagine how Kafka-esque all of this seemed to Ms. Thompson -- the Republicans (possibly at the behest of Washington) destroyed her life for no reason other than political gain, and with so little evidence that the appeals court who just released her was appalled and astonished.

But Ms. Thompson and guns do have a bit of a connection in the eyes of the right wing. Some weeks ago, I blogged about the attorneys scandal as it was just coming to light. My fear was that the federal attorneys were being groomed to either exonerate members of the Bush administration who might otherwise be convicted of breaking laws, or else to drum up show trials against opponents and get rid of them (bingo).

My first piece elicited lots of responses. Many of them were schadenfreudenish exclamations of right wing glee -- if Bush declared martial law, that would show us gun-control adherents, because it would be the well-armed second amendment fanatics who would be able to save themselves from the martial law round-up, while those of us who have no guns would, I assume, be marched off to our detention centers.

Their implication was that the right wing was going to protect us from the right wing. My own view was that the trigger-happy ones were probably going to enlist in private mercenary armies and continue disdaining and condemning us wimps for putting them in such a compromising position as making them have to shoot us.

But that's how it is with the right wing, isn't it? Grievance is something they do, no matter how much power they have. They are shocked, shocked, that they don't have all the power, shocked and victimized and angry.

You could tell it in Bush's response to today's shooting. First he said he was shocked and saddened. Then he said everyone has the right to bear arms. He wouldn't want to let any of those NRA-types imagine for a second that any amount of senseless killing could possibly shake his commitment to a fully-armed populace.

Here's what I think about guns -- guns have no other purpose than killing someone or something. All the other murder weapons Americans use, from automobiles to blunt objects, exist for another purpose and sometimes are used to kill.

But guns are manufactured and bought to kill. They invite their owners to think about killing, to practice killing, and, eventually, to kill, if not other people, then animals.

They are objects of temptation, and every so often, someone comes along who cannot resist the temptation -- someone who would not have murdered, or murdered so many, if he did not have a gun, if he were reduced to a knife or a bludgeon or his own strength.

I wish that the right wing would admit that, while people kill people and even an "automatic" weapon needs a shooter, people with guns kill more people than people without guns do.

Digg!

See more stories tagged with: guns

Jane Smiley is a novelist and essayist. Her novel A Thousand Acres won the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Critics Circle Award in 1992.

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I've always told people...
Posted by: White middleclass male on Apr 18, 2007 12:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...guns only have one purpose.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. When police do not need their guns to protect themselves I'll give up mine.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» guns DO have only one purpose Posted by: zipper696
» If I'm affraid so are you Posted by: White middleclass male
» RE: I've always told people... Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: I've always told people... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: I've always told people... Posted by: Rathan47
» RE: I've always told people... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: That second amendment Posted by: Edward George
» RE: That second amendment Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: That second amendment Posted by: douglashoyt
» RE: That second amendment Posted by: wonkywriter
Guns and other weapons do not cause violence
Posted by: Lector on Apr 18, 2007 12:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“I would like the right wing to admit that guns are not "good" (I am no lover of the Right but why target only them as gun-toters, unless the writer saw an opportunity to politicize the issue of guns instead of discussing its causes) It would have been better if America had never had guns at all – yet the fact is guns have been around a long while and the increase in violence has been because people in America have changed. The failure of our culture has caused this, not the guns. We are not paying the price because we are a gun ownership society, we are paying the price because we are a sick society which produces people who deal with problems by murdering others.

“All the other murder weapons Americans use, from automobiles to blunt objects, exist for another purpose and sometimes are used to kill.”

Before the invention of the gun, knives, spears, sticks and stones were used to kill people. These implements also had other uses. If guns were banned, knife crimes would go up, the gun-running business would flourish. Finding the causes of the sickness in our society is what we should be focusing on instead of blaming Right or Left ideologies.

Robert Lightfoot

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Confess or Else
Posted by: edith on Apr 18, 2007 1:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jane Smiley's smarmey little article hugs itself in self-righteousness: she self-righteously proclaims, I wish people with guns would admit that they kill more people than people without guns. Well I don't know, Janey, been driving out on the freeway lately? Not too safe there either. Let's ban cars!

As for her scientific survey of one gun owner who gave up his guns because allegedly he thought about them all of the time, Ms. Smiley could give the same advice to all men, I suppose.

Get castrated because you think about it all the time.

Somehow I don't find the notion of one of the millions of law abiding citizens who own guns drilling the scumbag who murdered 33 innocent kids and professors at Va Tech very disturbing. What is disturbing is the notion that a maniac or dictator can force himself on an unarmed public and all we can do is watch TV helplessly and read inane articles like Smiley's.

The vast majority of deaths at Va Tech occurred because an incompetent college adminisitration failed to warn the campus community that a killer was on the loose and that it was quite possible he was still on campus 2 hrs after his initial strike. The grief of those families will be made not one whit less by blabbing about how people with guns kill people when the problem here was a very sick individual who should have but wasn't treated for his illnesses. As in many if not all these tragic cases, warning signs of the killer's mental disease were evident long before the person lashed out. We should be discussing how to balance individual rights to be "weird" with the community's interest in forcing lunatics to be treated. Va Tech couldn't force the killer into therapy, but it could have told him that as a result of faculty observations of his prior bizarre behavior that he could take his in state tuition elsewhere. Virginia offficials should be criticized for not shutting the campus down or for not treating this lunatic earlier. That would have saved lives, not whining about gun laws that are abused by a very tiny fraction of gun owners.

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» Same old NRA pablum Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Same old NRA pablum Posted by: edith
» Avoid Igoeja Posted by: jwc
Too late for the US
Posted by: helgerry on Apr 18, 2007 2:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Strict gun control (for semi and fully automatic or assault weapons) should have been enacted and enforced long time ago. Now it's too late to talk about it. The country is awashed with those terribly efficient killing machines such as the Glock 9mm (which can fire 15 rounds in 5 sec.) legally bought by Cho. Thanks to the NRA and this outdated Second Amendment...
I just read on a message board this guy bragging about his beloved guns " I currently own 2 semi auto pistols, a semi auto shotgun and (gasp) an AK-47. I've own in the past 30+ other semi autos,including Mac 11's AR-15 and other so called assault weapons. In 30 yrs. I've not shot a single person but have shot many targets. I'm also a member of the NRA." What an arsenal!
Well, this is what we call a "civilized" society... Another guy argued that students should have the right to bear arms ON CAMPUS while sitting in class! That says it all folks!!!
The NRA members love to say that "it's not the guns, it's the people" who are responsible... But with so many lunatics (who don't necessarily have any criminal records such as that "clean-looking guy" Cho) walking around in America plus the fact that most of them can legally or illegally buy weapons at any moment, that's a recipe for disaster!

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» RE: Too late for the US Posted by: YogiBear
Thoughts from a gun-toting liberal
Posted by: willie.horton on Apr 18, 2007 3:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm terrified of guns.
I'm terrified of the millions of illegal guns on the street, and the poverty that drives their use.
I'm also deeply afraid of the large-caliber handgun I carry (with appropriate permits) every day. I treat it with the utmost respect and care. I pray every morning that it will stay in its holster, and that carrying it will be a waste of time. Then, I carry it anyway.

What scares me most is that there were people at Virginia Tech who, like me, had concealed carry permits. These people, because they are law-abiding citizens, did not carry their guns on campus. These people, like me, were trained and ready to defend themselves and their fellow citizens... and they were disarmed by a stupid law banning guns at Virginia Tech. An unenforceable law, but one that had a horrible effect: it disarmed everybody but the murderer.

Now, my fellow liberal Jane wants to pass more stupid laws. This will accomplish nothing good, but it will help fund the NRA. Is that what you want?
Shut up, Jane. You can't stop gun violence by "controlling" guns: all that does is disarm law-abiding citizens, and elect right-wing arseholes.

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» Slander me, why don't you? Posted by: willie.horton
» It would be libel, but... Posted by: igoeja
» Bad form Posted by: YogiBear
» Required, and optional, training Posted by: willie.horton
Some Little-Publicized Truths
Posted by: igoeja on Apr 18, 2007 3:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Coincidentally, the night before the rampage, as well as after, I was doing some research on the more academic websites (EurekAlert.org, Google Scholar, Pubmed) about guns, and found some interesting tidbits.

Looking over the legitimate material, not the propaganda put about in newspapers or by the NRA, one finds an elemental truth: gun control could save many lives, as well as reduce crime.

- Guns correlate with increases in homicides and suicides, between counties, between countries, etc. This is has been found repeatedly true. There is no debate.

- 1% of gun shops are responsible for 49% of all illegal handguns used in crime, and this is not a matter of the big shops selling more guns. Some shops have bad background check procedures, and enforcing policies of adequate background checks on the small number of shops at fault could go a long way. That, and simply having background checks...

- The debate over the 2nd amendment bears little resemblance to the debate at the time of the constitution. At that time, the debate centered around whether the states could have military operations, partially to quell rebellion. The concern about individual rights to own guns is a modern construction.

- There are many more guns in circulation than reported, since within households men control ownership 80% of the time, and women often are misinformed by their partners about guns in the house, either the actual number in the house, or how they are stored.

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» Argumentum ad verecundiam Posted by: Lector
Smiley and Guns
Posted by: annewithane on Apr 18, 2007 4:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with Smiley and I am disappointed by the comments. Nothing new has been said here by anyone including Smiley. It's strange how discussion of guns brings out nastiness, sarcasm, and circular arguments. Not many think through the issue calmly. Guns and nasty discussions go hand in hand every time. I don't like guns but it's personal. My 19 year old daughter shot herself in the head with a gun and she is dead. I was so devestated I had no interest in how she got the gun or tracking down the killer who sold a gun to a minor. I haven't tried to overcome her death by jumping into the foray of gun control. All I know is that a 19 year old who looked like she was 15 was able to buy a gun. All I know is the reality that guns kill. And all I know is that people become raving lunatics when you start talking about gun control. Nothing changes in America, we just keep putting up with the loud mouths who make love to their guns. It's insulting for me and my little world but I don't let fools bother me. I just keep on surviving.

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» RE: Smiley and Guns Posted by: freedom_rings
Another opportunity to promote the liberal agenda.
Posted by: dikaiosyne on Apr 18, 2007 5:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All this tragedy down in Virginia has done is give the left wing another opportunity to push the anti-gun agenda. When I look at this tragedy what I see is that it's because of the liberal agenda that so many innocent students are dead. This because the board for V-TEC decided that it was not in the best interests of the students to allow openly carried handguns on campus. Thirty two of them paid for this desire by liberal pinheads to create "utopia" on the college campus by insuring that a maniac with a desire to commit mayhem would have no trouble by being confronted by another armed student or professor. For this Korean killer it would be like shooting fish in a barrel....and it was. Once again the adage frequently seen on the bumpers of right thinking people is proven true.....Guns don't kill people....gun control does. Congratulations liberals.....You now have the blood of 32 more folks on your hands with your utterly foolish views that its guns that cause all gun crimes.

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» Another red herring Posted by: Lector
» RE: Another red herring Posted by: YogiBear
The same old story again
Posted by: Krain61 on Apr 18, 2007 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In other countries there are more deaths than in the USA where we have the right to bare arms. Cars kill more people in the USA than guns and ciggerretts combined but we except that. Ciggerretts kill more people than guns in the USA but there still legal to buy and smoke.
When you give up your right to bare arms you no longer have a voice. Your Government is then a DICTATORSHIP.
If you choice to not own one that's your choice. Yes there will be accidents just as with cars but you don't seemed to be giving up your car.

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» RE: The same old story again Posted by: ArtemInox
» RE: The same old story again Posted by: Benjaminsjw
And where
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 18, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WHERE ARE ALL THE COMMENTS ON THIS ARTICLE FROM YESTERDAY?????????????? WHY HAVE THEY BEEN DELETED???????????

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Feeding into the neocon hype
Posted by: freedom_rings on Apr 18, 2007 6:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article epitomizes what we will all be hearing on the corporate media in the coming weeks: Guns are bad, guns are dangerous, people die because of guns. Wake up america, people are bad, people are dangerous, people die beacause of people. And as long as there are people, we will need to protect ourselves. Guns are a fundamental right to protect ourselves and our liberty. I have never owned one, but I may buy one soon while we still have the right.

Enough about theory. The fact is - take away guns and violent crime goes up. Criminals do not care about the legality of guns, they will use them anyway. Disarming the victims only gives criminals motive. Look at the statistics. DC - no guns, highest violent crime. States with liberal gun laws=lower violent crime. England took the peoples guns a couple of years ago and guess what happened since?

There was a similar incident on a campus in Virginia in 2002 with a different ending. Instead of waiting for police to save the day five hours and 33 dead later, two students, armed with guns, were able to stop the perpetrator and there was only one person injured. Funny how this story of heroism, affirming the positive impact of gun rights, failed to gain any attention from corporate media.

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Don't threaten my Penis ...
Posted by: AdamSelene40 on Apr 18, 2007 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I used to be a Gunner (and an NRA member) too ... I know EXACTLY what the attraction of guns is ... and enormous amount of the attraction is pure Freudian sexual fetish. Face it, when we've got live ammo, we're not shooting blanks.

Hunters are participating in an primal male bonding ritual ... "Iron John" stuff .

Gunners are just playing with their pee-pees by themselves.

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» RE: Don't threaten my Penis ... Posted by: alterpa123
» RE: Don't threaten my Penis ... Posted by: alterpa123
» RE: Don't threaten my Penis ... Posted by: alterpa123
» You'll be okay? Posted by: Knowmad
» HUH? Posted by: alterpa123
» RE: DUH Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: On the other hand Posted by: Edward George
» RE: Don't threaten my Penis ... Posted by: Blue Heron
A simple solution to gun violence --- that even the right-wing, pro-market, pro-gun nuts will love.
Posted by: amacd on Apr 18, 2007 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Typically, the type of pro-gun individuals and organizations that support
broad and easy availability to guns, pistols, and assault weapons also are
strongly in favor of private, 'free market' solutions --- so here's a 'market
based solution' (as Bush might say) to the gun problem: --- gun insurance.

Anyone is free to buy a gun as dangerous as they want, BUT they have to buy
and continue to pay gun insurance (just like car insurance) to cover their
personal choice to own a gun, which like a car, might be dangerous to
others.

WOW. How simple.

If a person wants to exercise their 'personal choice' then they have to buy
insurance to insure that their personal choice and personal freedom of
arming themselves to the teeth doesn't cause damage (economists call
'negative externality costs') to the rest of us.

It's logical. It's the 'free market' providing the solution. And it places
the costs of the damages that guns sometimes cause directly on those whose
personal choice is to buy, possess, carry, and use that device (a gun or a
car) that sometimes cause harm or death to others.

The great thing about the 'beauty of the free market' is that it
automatically (by Adam Smith's 'invisible hand') set the correct prices in a
private (not government mandated) 'free market'. Now that should make Bush
and his pro-market cabal happy than pigs in ...... a gun store.

For example, if an honest, 45 year old farmer here in Maine, with no
criminal record, wants to buy a .22 bolt action rifle to chase off varmits,
then the insurance 'free market' of private gun insurance companies will
offer him multiple competing policies for next to nothing.

However, if a 23 year old college kid, who has been involved in several
violent incidents and threats, and has been to counseling for drugs and
violence just has to have that nifty MAC10, 40 shot, assault weapon look
alike, then the profit based, computerized gun insurance 'free market'
industry is going to say, "Well, Duke, that gun insurance is going to set
you back $4000. So, punk, do you feel lucky --- and rich?"

Since the 'free market' gun insurance will pay for any crime and damages,
and deaths caused by any gun that is insured by each company, you can be
sure that the insurance rates will actually and exactly match the real costs
of the damages that the guns and their gun owners cause by their equally
'free choice' to have guns.

What could be simpler?------ And more importantly, what could be harder for
the 'free market' and pro-gun folks to argue against?

Of course, any guns without insurance would be illegal --- just like cars
without insurance, and could be collected by the police in an impoundment
lot, where anyone who wants to claim ownership and get insurance could
reclaim them. No surprise, there would be no takers!

This whole 'free market' gun insurance solution would for the first time in
America put the 'real costs' of gun ownership to an impartial test by the
'free market'.

PS. We require car insurance for devices that are mostly useful and only
'sometimes' accidentally dangerous. What's wrong with requiring 'free
market' gun insurance for devices that are only partly useful and often very
dangerous by their very nature?

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A Civilized World
Posted by: sgtstan on Apr 18, 2007 7:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has always been my interpretation that the left was the group open to seeing the grey areas and the right demanded a black-and-white world. This author places herself on the left by asking the right to make concessions, yet sees the gun control issue from a very “Republican” point of view.

Perception is reality. And media affects our perception. Thus, media certainly affects our reality.

This author’s reality is that “guns are not ‘good’.” In the face of the media’s constant repetition of uninformed commentators’ easy-answer solutions affirming that belief, how can she think otherwise? I would refer this author to John Lott’s recent book, “The Bias Against Guns.”

I consider myself quite left of center, own handguns, and carry one daily, not due some fanatical survivalist hatred of government or fear of oppression, but because its my job. I’m a cop.

It is my belief that in the past hundred years, and especially since WWII, the population of this country has given away some very necessary responsibilities. In 19th century United States, the citizenry understood and maintained the basic notion that this is, indeed, a dangerous world. Because there was often no strong local law enforcement, the citizenry, often by regulation, was required to attend criminal activity in the best means available with the best tools available. This acted as a societal glue, that what affected one affected all.

But with the continued expansion of urban areas and the growth of a mobile citizenry, the idea of community responsibility, perhaps even that of community itself, has diminished to such a degree that we now depend upon surrogates for our safety.

Where once the duty of family and village was the security of its children, we now expect outsiders to deal with, control, and eliminate the evils in our society. In the name of advancing our civilized status, and thereby ignore some fundamental human and animal instincts, we have handed over the safekeeping of our children to our government and our police agencies, then wail and lament when those functionaries fail. To remain in the child identity, free to pursue our egocentric ends without fear, we have made parents of our police and complain when we find their human limitations.

The price we’re paying for our perceived peaceful and pacifist society is the reluctance to acknowledge the dangers of being alive and the unwillingness to take advantage of our own abilities and the tools at our disposal to ensure our own survival.

I won’t be a cop forever. And I’m certainly no advocate of unbridled vigilante justice. But I depend upon the vigilance of my neighbors, and hope that, upon my retirement, I still retain the rights and the tools to protect myself and my family, rather than impotently stand by and wait for “daddy” to show up and make everything okay.

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Wake Up Jane!
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Apr 18, 2007 8:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You say "it would be nice if the gun-toting right wing admitted that there is a price we pay."

Yes we do pay a price. Do you think Al Gore would have lost in 2000 if he was pro-gun? So why shouldn't rational libs be pissed at people like you? And why is it that anyone who is pro-gun has to be a damn "gun-toting right winger"? Only in your mind...

You wanna understand why so many americans love their guns? I'll tell you why... because civilization is on the verge of collapse, and if/when it finally does, those guns are going to be the last and only hope for a lot of people. Why would anyone think we're on the verge of collapse? Because they dont have their head shoved up the butt of the elite. I'm beginning to fully understand that people like you are only here to keep people distracted with this faux left/right mindset, until it is too late... While youre busy with your "left this" and "right that", the real issues are floating right over your head.

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» Excellent, its true!!!! Posted by: Prophit
WE NEED MORE GUN CONTROL!!
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Apr 18, 2007 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WE NEED MORE GUN CONTROL TO PREVENT THINGS LIKE VIRGINIA!!!!

nevermind that he actually got his gun illegally to begin with. What gun control there is DID NOT STOP THIS!!!!

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» Gun Control Posted by: Landbaron
Assumptions assumptions...
Posted by: dbatterman on Apr 18, 2007 8:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The main problem I have with the above article is one that is shown again and again with those who have an anti-firearm mentality: too much assumption.
First of all, why do the words "right wing" and "gun owner" always appear together in these kinds of articles? I'm about as leftie as I can get, and so are most of my friends and colleagues, and the majority of us own guns.
Second of all, within the first few paragraphs, the author betrays his own premise by admitting that he has no experience with guns. Oh yes, he knew someone who used to own them. Wow. Kind of like these folks who write homophobic screeds who have never known a gay person.
Many many folks whom I have taken to the range for their first experience have their minds changed completely after they actually experience what it is like to shoot. Information is power, and speaking out of ignorance, as a journalist, is a poor standard.

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» RE: Assumptions assumptions... Posted by: theairboater
» Yea!!! Me too!!! Posted by: Prophit
Typical female pacifist that cannot understand guns or violence
Posted by: ateo on Apr 18, 2007 8:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't worry honey, there are men out there to protect you from other men. Don't expect to understand the male mind anymore than a man can understand yours. It's all a crazy mix of hormones and chemicals that make every man a potential killer. Lurking just beneath the surface is the potential to do whatever it takes when our survival is perceived to be threatened - including kill.

Men hunt the bears, men fight, men kill; women take care of the kids, cook the food, forage for fruits and vegetables. 100 years of "enlightened modern living" can't erase 200,000 years of man being what he is, a killer. Take away every weapon and men will still kill because it is in his nature.

Take away every weapon and some man with political power and control of weapons will exploit that vacuum of power and clamp down on all rights and freedoms. The only thing keeping the totalitarians of the world at bay is physical strength and in the modern world that means weapons.

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Sharon
Posted by: SEDGFLD on Apr 18, 2007 9:29 AM   
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As a former prosecutor, I wish some of you "guns at all costs " lovers would spend a few days at the morgue with a family who lost a loved one, accidentally, or with a family who is grieving because someone, with an old west mentality, just started shooting because they were afraid and hit a totally innocent person or someone found a gun, locked or unlocked and was injured or killed.
What if all the people at this school who owned guns brought them on campus and started shooting at whom they thought was shooting at them. If trained professionals can make mistakes , especially under circumstances like this, lay people surely can. Maybe, they should even allow them to be allowed into sports venues. Then all the idiots, who normally can't control their emotions, at both children's games and adult games, could have a public shootout. Let the bullets go where they may!
There probably would have been more bodies, especially if a police officer saw all of these people brandishing weapons. When someone has a weapon pointed at them or around them, they're not going to spend a lot of time asking questions, especially when they can't be sure of the identity of the shooer.
Once we add the people who just have to drink and those who are downright drunk, there's another component of diminished capacity to further detract from distinguishing whom the culprit or culprits are. Those of you who have been on college campuses, no matter their affiliations, know that for some, drinking at any time isn't un usual.
So, when those of you who think more guns need to be added to the mix, just hope your families aren't the ones getting the word from the police, hospitaln or coroner's office that they need to identify your body or that you have to face a family because you shot an innocent person.
Although extremists do everything they can to lie about this FACT, where there are less weapon limits or no guns allowed (gun control), there are less deaths by guns. These places have deaths because people from other places are bringing guns into these communities.

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» RE: Sharon Posted by: YogiBear
let's get on the same page for a second
Posted by: nor cal surfer on Apr 18, 2007 9:34 AM   
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-- Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 43 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense. [ Kellermann and Reay, N.E. Journal of Medicine]

--In 1996, 2 people were murdered by handguns in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States. [FBI Uniform Crime Report]

--Suicide is nearly 5 times more likely to occur in a household with a gun than in a household without a gun. [Kellerman, A.L. et al., N Engl J Med 327, 1993.]

--Gunshot wounds are the leading cause of death for both African-American and white teenage males. [Journal of the American Medical Association]

the other stat i haven't found yet involves you more likely dying by your own weapon than someone else's. i'll follow up with that number when i can find it.

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» thank you for the ideas Posted by: nor cal surfer
Ha, thanks goodness for guns
Posted by: ryazbeck on Apr 18, 2007 9:37 AM   
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See, this is whats great about guns... whenever some country with a leader like bush decides that America needs to be re-democratized and they invade us... ha, well they will have a hell of alot harder time than we did in Iraq. Almost everyone I know here in Texas owns an arsenal of guns, now try coming up in my house and raping my girlfriend and arresting me.

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» i take it you're not a Branch Davidian Posted by: nor cal surfer
» Shock & Awe Posted by: Jennie
» RE: Shock & Awe Posted by: YogiBear
retired
Posted by: deboer on Apr 18, 2007 10:02 AM   
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The original premise of the 2nd Amend was for everyone to have guns to prevent tyranny by our own government - (illegal searches, torture, secrecy, arrest without counsel, etc.) like we see today. So the NRA as the "Frontline of Freedom" they advertise really ought to get there guns out to oppose the other freedoms already lost, besides just keeping their guns, (which by the way is Constitutional). However, the modern hunting muskets are not even a match for the 9mm auto pistol, much less tanks, bazookas, etc. So as a defense force, it is only good as political pressure.

The NRA should put the mouth where there slogans lie.

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Who cares what Jane Smiley thinks?
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 18, 2007 10:59 AM   
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She wrote, “I would like the rightwing to admit that guns are not ‘good’…”

Are cars driven by drunks “not good?” Only if you believe what Stephen King writes.

Get real, Miss Smiley, and ask yourself, “How can people assign human qualities to inanimate objects?"

They can’t, which defeats your argument under the Greek-founded "Rule of Contradiction."

As for Virginia’s gun laws, I have to agree with Fox’s Bill O’Reilly for the first time in my life.

I accidentally tuned his radio show while driving down the freeway yesterday. Before I could switch stations, he said that Virginia’s instant background check for pistol buyers was absurd -- that it should take at least seven days so fingerprints could be run.

Other than increasing the waiting time and until guns develop evil personalities that control their owners, I see no reason to change the status quo. Except, of course, to make sure campus cops understand that they should inform students in a timely fashion -- like ASAP with bullhorns! -- when a crazed shooter is not accounted for.

Hugh E. Scott, editor of King-George.biz -- the only website with hardcopy proof of White House corruption.

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The Epidemic
Posted by: hotlipsin61 on Apr 18, 2007 11:59 AM   
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It'll be interesting to note how many are killed by guns juxtaposed to the number of deaths by other means in the States each year. Doctors must be tired of treating gunshot victims. And then comes the lengthy rehab process. Anyone remember Jim Brady? He took the slug meant for President Reagan.
What's the problem? A gun. The solution: ban them! (Wishful thinking). Gun violence is an epidemic that has no cure. Gun deaths are a daily occurence in Los Angeles. Hardly a day goes by without a gun-related death. Maybe I should move to Finland.

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» RE: The Epidemic Posted by: oneten
Ban Doctors Now!!!!
Posted by: oneten on Apr 18, 2007 12:09 PM   
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Yes those poor doctors. How many deaths are caused by medical
incompetence or "hospital error" per year?

195,000 US deaths due to hospital error (HealthGrades Inc., 2004)

Let's see, that's 195,000? How many gun deaths again? I think the
case for banning Doctors has been made, right?

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» RE: Ban Doctors Now!!!! Posted by: mute
» RE: Ban Doctors Now!!!! Posted by: oneten