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Rights and Liberties

Who Would Jesus Deport?

By Alexander Zaitchik, SPLC Intelligence Report. Posted January 29, 2007.


A grassroots movement is forming in which anti-immigrant rhetoric dovetails with the odes to God and country that have long constituted conservative evangelical boilerplate.
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When Joan Maruskin took the podium last April at a Family Research Council (FRC) immigration conference in Washington, D.C., it was hard not to think of Daniel in the lion's den: The liberal director of the Church World Service Immigration Program was addressing an audience convened by a major force on the Christian religious right. It was not her crowd.

It turned out that the Book of Daniel was among the few books of the Bible that Maruskin didn't quote. While making the Christian case for amnesty, she demonstrated that the Old and New Testaments are chock-full of soundbyte-ready advocacy for the "stranger." All told, she counts more than 300 scriptural admonishments to mercy toward immigrants.

"The Bible is an immigration handbook," Maruskin told the FRC audience. "'Cursed be the person who oppresses the alien.' Can we forget that Christ himself was a migrant and a refugee, born in a stable? Under our laws, Mary, Joseph and Jesus would be sent to three different prisons."

A powerful image, but Maruskin's position is far from dominant on the religious right. In a FRC member poll conducted last spring, 90% of respondents chose forced deportation as the appropriate fate for America's estimated 11 million-12 million undocumented immigrants. This response aligns the FRC base with fire-breathing hard-liners like U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.), the evangelical co-sponsor of an immigration reform bill notable for its criminalization of those who "aid and abet" illegal immigrants, something many religious leaders and laymen see as a Christian duty.

So it wasn't surprising that Maruskin's social-gospel message received a tepid response from the FRC audience. Heartier applause greeted the conservative Catholic journalist John O'Sullivan, who followed Maruskin to the podium and scoffed at her liberal "proof-texting" of Scripture. Arguing that such selective quotation did not "contribute to the debate," he tried to debunk the argument for amnesty and dismissed Maruskin and her ilk as "moral bullies."

"The fact is," said O'Sullivan, "most Christians are more hard-line when it comes to immigration than their Church leaders. Are all of these people going to hell?"

A better question might be: When did immigration assume a place next to abortion and traditional marriage as a "family" issue for the religious right? And is this new and highly charged issue a threat to that movement's much-vaunted "culture war"? Or is it a legitimate part of it?

The 'definitive divide'?

The ascendance of immigration as a burning issue on the religious right has been swift. Conservative commentators and politicians have both fueled and responded to a grassroots movement in which anti-immigrant rhetoric dovetails with the odes to God and country that have long constituted conservative evangelical boilerplate. Hard-right evangelical politicians like Tancredo have built national constituencies by blending anti-immigrant rhetoric into broadsides against secular liberals and Islamist radicals.

After languishing for years in smaller Christian nationalist groups like Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, the immigration issue has now landed squarely on the agenda of larger religious right groups with political clout. Tony Perkins, president of the influential FRC, signaled this shift while opening last April's immigration conference. "At question today is, do we have an immigration policy that is serving to strengthen the cultural fabric of our nation, which has a great influence on the family?" he asked. "The answer is no. We must get this right."

Getting it right will not and has not been easy for the religious right, any more than it has been for the country as a whole. Unlike abortion, the immigration issue has sharply divided the movement's leaders and political allies. Fierce "pro-family" culture warriors stand on both sides of the debate, with religious right advocates in Washington backing two radically different visions of immigration reform as symbolized by the House and Senate immigration bills unveiled last winter.

A unified evangelical position could do much to determine the shape of immigration reform, which was to be taken up again by Congress after the midterm elections in November. How the religious right tilts or fractures over the issue also holds stakes for the movement itself. A deep rift or further right turns could jeopardize the religious right's political coherence as well as its potentially natural alliance with America's growing and culturally conservative Latino and predominantly Catholic population.

Already, there are signs of a split. According to the Pew Research Center, 63% of white evangelicals view immigrants as a "threat to U.S. customs and values," compared to 48% of the population as a whole. (Only 39% of secular respondents held negative views of immigrants.) Though the two most influential Christian Right groups -- James Dobson's Focus on the Family and its spawn the Family Research Council -- have avoided taking an official position on the issue, their mostly white flock has already tacked hard right.

Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, president of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, says the Latino community is aware of rising anti-immigrant sentiment on the religious right and is "very concerned" about attitudes such as those reflected in the FRC poll.

"Before immigration came along, we were building an alliance," says Rodriguez. "We had agreement on traditional marriage, partial birth abortion -- so many threads were being woven together. Immigration threatens to become the definitive divide."

Meeting of the minds

The Secure Borders Coalition is where the religious right meets and meshes with the extreme end of anti-immigrant politics. An alliance of Christian Right groups, hard-right organizations like Accuracy in Media and the Swift Boat Veterans, and strident but secular anti-immigration outfits such as the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, the coalition in June issued a strong statement opposing all amnesty and guest worker proposals. It vowed to oppose any candidate, regardless of his or her stance on other issues, who does not toe the line on immigration. Remarkably, it also calls for a near-freeze in legal immigration.

"We favor a policy of attrition of the illegal population through strong enforcement of our nation's immigration laws, which includes, first and foremost, the securing of our borders," reads the coalition statement. "[W]e dedicate ourselves to defeating any 2008 presidential candidate who [disagrees]... . We pledge to do so regardless of political party and in both the primaries and the general election."

The list of religious-right figures signing the coalition statement is long and varied. It includes Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, Lou Sheldon's Traditional Values Coalition, Howard Phillips' Conservative Caucus and Bishop Harry R. Jackson of Hope Christian Ministries. The signatories concerned primarily with immigration include English First, the American Council for Immigration Reform, the Center for Immigration Studies, Pro-English, and the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps.

One possible future for this nexus can be glimpsed in the budding relationship between two Secure Border Coalition members -- a relationship that links religious-right political muscle to the literal muscle of the vigilante border-patrol movement. Last spring, Chris Simcox put his Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC) under the wing of Alan Keyes' Declaration Alliance, a group dedicated to overturning Roe v. Wade that also believes in a "founding mandate to freely and publicly acknowledge the authority of the Creator God." Along with imbuing the Simcox group with a touch of the divine, the MCDC/Keyes arrangement saw Simcox's mailing lists handed over to Response Unlimited, a Keyes-connected Christian mailing and telemarketing firm that now sells lists of MCDC donors for $120 per thousand names.

Another, similar relationship is developing between the Eagle Forum (founded in 1972 and one of the oldest religious right groups) and the Minuteman Project of Jim Gilchrist, Simcox's former organizational partner (Gilchrist did not join the Secure Borders Coalition). The Eagle Forum's Schlafly, a long-time gay-basher, believes that guest-worker programs and amnesty are "immoral." The Christian thing to do, argued Schlafly in her newsletter last January, is to "erect a fence and double our border agents in order to stop the drugs, the smuggling racket, the diseases, and the crimes." Gilchrist, who holds a similar view, was a featured guest at the 35th annual Eagle Forum Conference in September.

Other religious right groups may not be officially aligned with the border-vigilante movement, but hold views indicating sympathy or approval.

"As the United States Senate continues debate on an immigration reform bill, the American people are backed up by the Bible in their demands that America's national boundaries are to be respected," writes Roberta Combs, national president of the Christian Coalition. "The left wing in this nation is thoroughly wrong when they argue that 'because Christ showed compassion to all of God's children, Christians should ignore violations of the law by aliens.'"

'Culture,' Christianity and race

The kind of first-principle absolutism found in the Secure Borders Coalition statement, once reserved for the so-called culture war, indicates that immigration has touched a central nerve on the religious right. But it is not simply a national-security or law-and-order nerve, as no other national security issue generates so much heat within the movement.

So what's going on? In the words of FRC's Tony Perkins, what's at stake is not so much guarding America's security as protecting its "cultural fabric."

Gary Bauer, president of American Values and an icon of the religious right, has said as much. In June, Bauer wrote an op-ed for USA Today that decried the failure of Latino immigrants to integrate into American society. "Hyphenated Americans put other countries and affiliations first, and they drive a wedge into the heart of 'one nation'," he wrote.

In choosing to highlight the "cultural" dimension of Latino immigration, Bauer echoed the nativist argument offered by Patrick Buchanan in his bestselling anti-immigrant screed, State of Emergency. Bauer also lifted a lid on the motivations of many anti-immigration voices on the Christian Right -- motivations more commonly cloaked in the rhetoric of law and order. Bauer admits as much, calling culture the "unmentioned undercurrent" in the immigration debate.

Some, farther out on the intellectual fringes of the movement, are more blunt. Thomas Fleming, president of the Christian-flavored Rockford Institute and, like Buchanan, a Catholic, says "culture" sits at the heart of his anti-immigration position. At a September institute-sponsored conference in Washington where Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) delivered the keynote address, Fleming said that "the cultural ambience aspect of [the immigration debate] is the only one that interests me." Writing in the Rockford Institute magazine Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture, Fleming was plainer about what he means when he says "culture," admitting, "Whatever we may say in public, most of us do not much like Mexicans, whom we regard as too irrational, too violent, too passionate."

"Some American Catholics think we should welcome the hordes of pro-life Catholics swarming across our southern border," continued Fleming. "But this is a mistake. Mexicans quickly become acclimated to America's culture of consumerism and infanticide. What they do not appear to relinquish is their own traditional style of violence."

Nor has the contentious question of culture completely escaped the notice of James Dobson's much larger and more mainstream Focus on the Family, which maintains a Spanish-language website and has been cautious on the issue. Last summer, the group's website chose to run a shining review of Victor Davis Hanson's Mexifornia, a lament for the defunct white-majority California of Hanson's youth. "Jobs do indeed have a lot to do with the issue [of immigration]," the Focus reviewer wrote. "But not as much as culture -- and that's what should really concern Americans most."

The issue of immigration, it seems, not only threatens the success of the religious right's larger culture war by alienating conservative Latinos. Immigration is also a growing component of that culture war.

Hard to starboard

Nativism has been a recurring obsession among religious Americans since the colonial era. As they assume battle positions in the 21st-century immigration debate, today's hard-line crusaders echo mid-19th century Know-Nothings who decried "ignorant and depraved foreigners" from Italy and Ireland. Ditto 20th-century nativists like FDR's Assistant Secretary of State, Breckinridge Long, who thought Jewish and Slavic immigrants were "entirely unfit to become citizens of this country. ... They are lawless, scheming, [and] defiant."

Such bald sentiments are not often heard in the larger religious-right groups, many of whose positions are informed by Biblical injunctions to mercy toward the "stranger," the groups' connections to the business wing of the Republican Party, and a desire to cultivate Latinos as religious and political allies in the culture war. But there is a clear trend-line running right among a segment of culturally conservative Christians, one that worries moderate evangelicals and Latinos alike. What remains to be seen is whether the larger Christian Right will drift into the arms of the hard-line anti-immigration camp, and how this will affect the movement.

"I don't think white evangelicals are racist," says Rev. Samuel Rodriguez of the Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. "But the Latino community is starting to have some concerns that need to be addressed. We must start changing hearts and minds through dialogue. The risk of polarization is real."

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Alexander Zaitchik is a journalist currently based in Moscow.

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View:
Liberals are bungling immigration issue
Posted by: Moonray on Jan 29, 2007 1:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is merely tribalism dressed up in fancy robes, so it's not suprising that most of those dancing around the campfire want to boot out the foreign devils. However, that doesn't mean they are wrong on the immigration issue.

It's just a sad truth that illegal immigrants have overrun our country and causing enormous upheaval in our communities. Instead of recognizing this truth and responding honestly to it, liberals engage in all sorts of political gymnastics to avoid appearing unkind. But that doesn't make them correct on the issue. Liberal leaders mostly want to avoid alienating all those potential Democratic voters. That's why progressives could lose many races in '08 on the immigration issue.

Progressives need to get tougher on illegals, including favoring deportation of those here for only a few years. The law is the law, after all. (And please don't whine that "No one is illegal." You can't simply ignore our laws when it suits you to do so.)

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» Katrina, Katrina, Katrina Posted by: mirimac
» Liberal bungling? Posted by: Joshua Holland
Values and rights have no meaning if you can't draw a line
Posted by: Bobsays on Jan 29, 2007 3:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everything that most people take for granted - legal rights, freedoms, prosperity - are a consequence of having a border. You identify and protect your rights by saying what you will or will not support. Mass illegal migration undermines these rights. To pretend there is no difference between the US and Mexico - a near-police state rife with corruption - is disingeneous.

Democrats and progressives are making a huge mistake by not standing up for an end to illegal migration. What they are allowing is anarchy, and in a state of anarachy all laws are disobeyed. That means laws that protect women, children, workers -all are eroded and undermined. That is what illegal migration does.

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My opinion
Posted by: Temporary on Jan 29, 2007 4:27 AM   
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I remember Jesus saying;"those who live by the sword also die by the sword" America has being doing that for a long, very long time! New slawes, another war, it's only a matter of time!

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Cross-Purposes
Posted by: Russ Wellen on Jan 29, 2007 4:31 AM   
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Once again, the religious right is working at cross-purposes with itself. By viewing Mexicans as "too irrational, too violent, too passionate" (thought that went out with Ricky Ricardo), they're totally missing out on how family-oriented they are. Besides, aside from gangs, most, especially illegals, keep a low profile in America.

Also, I don't have statistics to back this up, but I've read there's a growing trend of Hispanics and Latinos shifting from Catholicism to the evangelical movement. Anti-immigration evangelicals are alienating those who could add (God forbid) exponentially to their growth!

Wonderfully comprehensive overview of the subject by the author.

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Poor Show Alternet!!
Posted by: MAD on Jan 29, 2007 5:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Keep the religion out of it. This has nothing to do with god, unless of course you're talking about God Money. There are plenty of sound financial reasons to overhaul the US's "wide open" border policy without invoking dangerous right-wing race/religious paranoia. For me, depriving corporate America of its illegal worker gravy train is reason enough.

You're really not fooling anyone with this thinly veiled attempt at painting those who don't agree with the Alternet Guest Worker Program, i.e. Stay, Play and Drive Down Wages campaign, as haters or lunatics. You've tried your hand at portraying us as racists; that didn't work. Your rhetoric doesn't change the fact that millions of illegal immigrants are a NET DRAIN on the economy and lower employment prospects for less affluent blacks. Oh, and a very small segment of Latinos in CA have apparently started using them [blacks] as target practice in their own "Negros Fuera!!" urban renewal campaign.

So you thought you'd run a "Good 'ol Boys meets Ted Haggard" fringe group piece as if to say: "No one opposes illegal immigration except right-wing kooks and racists". Poor show Alternet. It's interesting that you found time to address this small, "grassroots" movement comprised of Jesus Freaks but sane, logical and rational arguments are never explored. Gee, I wonder why that is?

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» RE: Poor Show Alternet!! Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Poor Show Alternet!! Posted by: MartianBachelor
Out of the closet racism
Posted by: jefhadist on Jan 29, 2007 5:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"and lower employment prospects for less affluent blacks." Oh, and a very small segment of Latinos in CA have apparently started using "them" [blacks] as target practice in their own "Negros Fuera!!" urban renewal campaign."

Sounds suspiciously like closet racism to me? In fact, much of this debate is finally drawing all the wingnut, zenophobic, lowlife paranoids out into the light of day. Oh, by the way. What country did YOU come from? Love it or leave it....right? What a sorry excuse for a "free" democracy we have become in the U.S. It's downright embarassing sometimes.

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» RE: Mindless PC Parrot . . . Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: Out of the closet racism Posted by: Doubtom
Central American child abandonment from lure of US wages, lifestyle
Posted by: plantland on Jan 29, 2007 5:49 AM   
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According to a recent ex ambassador to El Salvador interviewed on a disturbing PBS' Point of View segment on ganglife in El Salvador, high numbers of children there join gangs to get a family structure denied them when their parents, particularly young mothers, leave for the US. The show was the most disturbing I have ever seen. Boys as young as nine or ten get inducted by being kicked in the head. They are looking for discipline. These children need their parents back.

Deportation programs, however, do not address the need for psychological counseling necessitated by the children's longing for and anger at their parents. Nor is there any follow-up to see whether they can support themselves. The El Salvadoran government would rather have its citizens work in the US and send remittances than plan programs to support the reuniting of families.

The amnesty programs Congress will pass will allow for minor children to join their parents in the US. But no one was honest about the incredible demands bringing a large number of violent alienated children who do not speak the language,( and whose parents must work long hours outside the home to support them at US prices for food and housing), will place on schools and neighborhoods. If they live in dilapidated conditions, they will be trying to learn in a foreign language while being at risk of lead poisoning. There is certain to be an increase in gang activity, which will especially impact on African American schools and communities. Amnesty programs of course will draw more teenage mothers to America, instigating a new cycle of abandonment .

I think that we in the US owe Central America for the shenanigans of the Twentieth Century, but that the best way to keep families whole is a Good Neighbor Policy which would help entire schools, communities, and pay for mental health care (in Spanish at far less expensive rates than in the US), and indemnify small businesses who could employ more workers, but who have been threatened by the very gangs which partially mushroomed because America winked or patted itself on the back for tolerating illegal immigration. Meanwhile, the US should pay for social services for deportees, and seek the cooperation of Cental American governments.

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am i just stupid or
Posted by: aislinnluv on Jan 29, 2007 6:02 AM   
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is there any good reason that our government (and others who should care) won't refuse to deal with mexico and other countries south of the border unless they themselves do something to improve the plight of their own people? why can't we demand that mexico, et al, try to make life better for their own citizens? i can't believe there is no money there to work with. they have enough to bribe officials, enough drug money to fund afflulent lifestyles for gangsters. thye are letting their own future dribble (or flow) out of their country and become the future of ours. for shame.

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Let's not forget
Posted by: daw13 on Jan 29, 2007 6:39 AM   
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how illegal immigration began. US agribusiness wanted non-citizen, low wage workers who would not be ablet to organize and pursue their rights and interests through the US legal and legislative systems. Mexico was encouraged to aid and abet this venture by depriving people in US neighboring states of decent job opportunities. As big business and big (Republican) government continue to jerk all of us around like puppets, might we wish to think about how to cut the strings, rather than continue to attack the "other" puppets, as required?

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North American Union
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Jan 29, 2007 6:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't give a crap what religion groups are thumping. All I know is I don't want our country over-run by illiterate baby making machines and violent gang bangers. Over 70% of all crime in California is caused by GANG members.

But the bigger issue is this:
Is it TRUE that Mexico, Canada, and the USA have already agreed on a North American Union (shared currency, open borders, superhighway from Mexico to Canada, etc..)??

If so, if this open borders model for a North American Union is coming in 2010 as sensationalized all over the web, then it's too late to think about deportation and we need to focus on education (English, anti-gang) and birth control (since overpopulation affects us all).

Where is the responsible reporting on the NAFTA highway and the North American Union?

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» Oh why isn't this being reported? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» What bill is that? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What bill is that? Posted by: poppop_schell
» RE: What bill is that? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: North American Union Posted by: babs
ฺำฺฺำฺำBeware the Good Book
Posted by: Paul Buckle on Jan 29, 2007 6:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When right-wing Christians scoff at selective quoting of the Bible, one tends less to simply smell the hypocrisy, rather choke on it. In any case, what is exposed is the painfully obvious fact that the Bible is so full of contradictions that it can be used to support almost any issue of choice. Want gay people to burn in hell? Look in the Bible. Support tolerance and respect of gays? Look in the Bible. Want to massacre your enemy? The Bible will back you up. Want to love your enemy? It’s all there. It’s a pity that this is still worth saying -in a more ideal world the sheer audacity of relying on the Bible to support any coherent philosophy would be obvious to just about everyone, but no, the Bible is still generously employed to abuse reason across the Christian religious spectrum (and beyond) and the mendacity of the abusers knows no bounds. In any case, liberal Christians, who are generally more rational than their fire and brimstone cousins ought to know better than to quote such a self-contradictory tract (or more accurately, such a selection of widely differing and often tenuously related tracts) to support their views. In fact, liberal Christians, would do well to realize that they might as well, for quotation purposes dump the entire thing excepting the Gospels which are, ideologically at least, pretty much self-consistent and also more in tune with the ideals of tolerance and respect that these individuals tend to espouse.

On the immigration issue in particular, there are no real surprises presented in this argument. It’s all too predictable that the extreme religious right will take, well, extreme right-wing views on this as all other issues and to be fair, in this particular instance, there is some justification for their views in a purely secular sense (illegal immigration is after all just that -illegal).

In any case, the deeper, more pertinent truth that is revealed here is that people of every political and ideological persuasion will continue to use and abuse religion to justify their particular mindset, a mindset that is both created and the creator of the deity that happens to meet their needs. The Bible is just the kind of incoherent mess to fuel this folly.

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This may be off topic: New anti-"illegal" immigrant e-mail
Posted by: sausage on Jan 29, 2007 6:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I received this e-mail, titled MAKES SENSE TO ME!!! yesterday. Twice!
Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use. The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants! That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down. Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the border.
When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq. Tell him if he wants to come to America then he must serve a tour in the military. Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it. After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country.
He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot. This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves. If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo. Problem solved. If you think this is a good solution to both the problems, forward it to your friends.
I just did.

Well, I didn't forward it. In fact I replied to the first friend who sent it that it is a perfectly nonsensical proposal, could have the opposite effect, drawing more "illegals" to the US, and not a solution to anything. The best place to start is a Marshall plan for southern Mexico and Centeral America. If the economies of these countries are stronger, wages higher, then the people who live there won't want to come here. Which is supposedly what the nativists want.

But like all the other "cultural" issues smothering American political discourse, this is something that the corporate sponsors of astroturf organizations like Tom Tancredo's Team America Pac never really wish to solve. The illegal immigration "issue" is merely another rallying point for the ignorant, the fearful and the bigoted. And it generates a lot of money for the likes of Team America chair, and aging pleasure boat, Bay Buchanan who will do anything for money except work at an honest day job.

Some of the right's criticism of illegal immigration is spot on. It does depress wages for example.

However if we cannot get our own economic house in order through--for example, narrowing the wealth gap, re-industrializing, strenghtening federal regulatory agencies, nationalizing mature, non-competative businesses such as utlities companies--then the scapegoating of "illegals" for the nation's economic ills will continue, much to the benefit of America's wealthiest investors and businessmen.

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» RE: No, massive fines should suffice. Posted by: FascismIsUnpatriotic
What a bunch of hogwash...... First of all "legal" immigration is not..
Posted by: Prophit on Jan 29, 2007 6:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... an issue. In fact, everyone including tancredo says "come over legallly". This author continues to use "political speak" to mitigate the problem. He calls it undocumented workers instead of illegal immigrants.

I do believe Jesus would not advocate breaking the laws of a nation to achieve a selfish end. He said, in fact, "give unto ceasar that which is ceasars and give unto God that which is Gods". In otherwords, follow ceasars law in this world and Gods law for the next.

Also, either this author hasn't got a clue about who is against illegal immigration or he does and is part of selling it to us. In either case, he is one I would gladly replace with an illegal for doing his job at 1/3rd the wages and see how he likes it.

If it were only the evangelicals who supported following the laws of this nation and against unarmed invasion and conquest of this nation by a foreign countries inhabitants, then there would only be 29% to 36% who would disapprove of the amnesty offered by Bush. Instead its 89% and that means its mainstream so why not quit the red herring and address the issue from a jobs perspective.

If he is a globalist, then this all makes sense. But recent press indicates employment is down worldwide, which is great for corporations. Now they have BILLIONS of workers to compete for the menial jobs that are now available. Which means lower wages yet again. Aaah, globalization, great for the elite and sucks for the worker.

Has this guy read any of the stats as to the real cost of these 12 million illegals to this nation (official figures, more like 30 million with the last 12 coming here since Bush took office). If he has and still takes this position then he is a traitor, if not, he is ignorant and should not write about something he knows nothing about until he does his research.

HERE ARE SOME EXAMPLES FOR HIS EDIFICATION:

01/27/07 - RENSE.com

Excerpt:

Job growth over the last five years is the weakest on record. The US economy came up more than 7 million jobs short of keeping up with population growth. That's one good reason for controlling immigration. An economy that cannot keep up with population growth should not be boosting population with heavy rates of legal and illegal immigration.

Over the past five years the US economy experienced a net job loss in goods producing activities. The entire job growth was in service- providing activities--primarily credit intermediation, health care and social assistance, waiters, waitresses and bartenders, and state and local government.

US manufacturing lost 2.9 million jobs, almost 17% of the manufacturing work force. The wipeout is across the board. Not a single manufacturing payroll classification created a single new job.

The declines in some manufacturing sectors have more in common with a country undergoing saturation bombing during war than with a super- economy that is "the envy of the world."

* Communications equipment lost 43% of its workforce. Semiconductors and electronic components lost 37% of its workforce.

* The workforce in computers and electronic products declined 30%.

* Electrical equipment and appliances lost 25% of its employees.

* The workforce in motor vehicles and parts declined 12%.

* Furniture and related products lost 17% of its jobs.

* Apparel manufacturers lost almost half of the work force.

* Employment in textile mills declined 43%.

* Paper and paper products lost one-fifth of its jobs.

* The work force in plastics and rubber products declined by 15%.

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST

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» The loss of American jobs Posted by: sausage
» BAD example .... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Yes. And? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Yes. And? Posted by: MAD
another day, another chance to make the religious right seem big
Posted by: kenhymes on Jan 29, 2007 7:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet once again offers a platform to those fringe elements oif the church whom few would know existed were it not for the editors' obsession with the religious right.

Let's have some REAL numbers: you cite a poll of FRC members, and give a percentage of same who support anti-immigration positions... but what number is that a percentage of? We know that the Christian Coalition and similar groups such as Haggard's fake COuncil of Evangelicals have routinely inflated their membership numbers in order to impress the GOP. These guys are the Enron of movement-building, and you guys are doing their legwork for them. Large majorities of Americans believe in God in one way or another, AND large majorities of Americans support universal health-care, protection of the environment, legal immigration, minimum wage increases, and many other progressive positions. I think the problem here is that secular leftists just can't deal with that reality. Much easier to attack than to build bridges with people whose cosmology makes you uncomfortable.

This is not a Christian nation, in the sense that very few people here would ever support the kind of theocracy apparently feared by some on the left. But it is a country in which people support religious pluralism. The left won't succeed without accepting that with some kind of good grace.

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» Ignorance is Bliss Posted by: Phenix
The biggest problem of CHRISTians
Posted by: mizipi on Jan 29, 2007 7:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The majority of people who claim to be Christians believe that Jesus died for their sins. Jesus died because a bunch of hypocrites despised His teachings, so they tried Him in a kangaroo court and nailed Him to a dead tree. Jesus said it is a narrow road to heaven and it ain't easy to travel. True Christians believe and try to live by the teachings of Christ - love your enemy, turn the other cheek, pray for those who persecute you - it ain't an easy thing to do. It's easy to put an American flag in one's yard, say "I am patriotic", etc. Everytime one of our soldiers is killed, it is like the death of Jesus. Everytime we kill someone, whether in battle or collateral damage, we kill Jesus. One of the 10 Commandments is "Thou shall not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shall not kill humans", so it could be construed that if we kill a mosquito, we are sinning. Then again, the Bible was written by man, sinful man, so maybe it is not as perfect as the teachings of Christ. If we could all try a little harder to "Do unto others as we would have others do unto us", well, just maybe the world would be a bit better.

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» Thou Shalt Not Kill Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Thou Shalt Not Kill Posted by: mizipi
» Myth or not........ Posted by: mizipi
» Walks, not walked, on Earth Posted by: mizipi
» The Jesus I know Posted by: mizipi
Will this make you Happy? About 600+ illegals will die in the desert this year
Posted by: sarahk on Jan 29, 2007 7:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here are some facts that may give you a warm fuzzy feeling as you contemplate the threat of the fithly, vile hords spilling over the border:
Over 600 people will die slow, thirsty deaths in the desert of Arizona this year. More and more bodies of small children, babies and women are being found. As it becomes harder for their fathers and huspands to come home from the US, women are making the choice to try to unite their families by crossing the border. Also very young teenagers are often trying to cross alone to try to reach parents in the US. Many will suffer rape and abuse along the way from traffikers and gangs. Most do not know how difficult the journey will be until it is too late to turn back in the desert. Remember what Jesus Christ our Savior said: Whatsoever ye do to the least of them, ye do unto me. I think that the children and baby alien illegals can be described as " the least of them" as they have the least power and the least resources.
Pray for those who will die a slow death in the desert this year. Here is an appropriate Psalm (63) for you to say as as you think of the women and children and men dying slow: O God, you are my God, earnestly I seek you, my body longs for you, in a dry and weary land where there is no water.

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» Amen! Posted by: Kelly
The SIMPLE solution to the Immigration Problem
Posted by: xbj on Jan 29, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To find a proper solution, first you must correctly IDENTIFY THE PROBLEM.

What is the problem of illegal immigration?

It is simple. The American culture is eroding and turning into a Hispanic one. That's what has so many Americans up in arms.

Now let's look at exactly why.

America has dealt with MANY immigration "surges" in its history. Irish, Jewish, Swedish, Puerto Rican, eastern European, Italian, Black slavery, I can't reel off the exact order by memory, but each of these "surges" has one thing in common and an essential element radically different from the tide of Hispanic immmigration. And it is glaringly simple.

ALL THESE PREVIOUS SURGES PEAKED, and then ended.

Precisely because these surges ended, all these widely disparate groups were given the NECESSARY TIME NEEDED to LEARN THE LANGUAGE and become ASSIMILATED.

Think about it. Are there still neighborhoods in New York where everyone speaks Italian? Yiddish? Even in San Francisco in Chinatown people speak predominantly English now.

BECAUSE THEIR SURGE OF IMMIGRATION ENDED.

Not so the Hispanic immigration surge. IT GOES ON, AND WILL GO ON, FOREVER, only stopping once THE US IS POORER than the countries where they are all coming from.

This is because it is a NEVER-ENDING SURGE, no matter how many who got here first learn the language and assimilate, there will always be a large subculture right behind them THAT WON'T. The Hispanic culture will NEVER BECOME AN AMERICAN ONE, it will only GET LARGER.

Until America is essentially, a predominantly Spanish-speaking Hispanic culture. The people complaining the loudest have already experienced this first hand.

So what is the solution? There is only one. Stop the surge.

How do you do that? Build a wall, unfortunately, so you can absolutely control surges, giving them beginnings, and ends.

I'm not saying cut it off forever... just have "assimilation periods" of a decade or more to give the last surge time to LEARN THE LAUNGUAGE, establish themselves, and become Americans, just the way Hispanics did back in the 40's and 50's when it wasn't an endless tidal wave of humanity.

This is not cruel; this is not racist; it says we'll let another huge wave come through in ten years, and then shut the gates down and let them all assimilate. Which they will readily do as there won't be a support Hispanic sub-community to fall back on. They will HAVE to become Americans, and sooner.

This also would help keep employers from profiting off an endless stream of slave labor.

It's really why we build dams, folks. To keep constant floods from destroying everything downstream. And every now and then, letting the water flow to relieve pressure.

That's all. Pretty simple. Pretty doable, we could have built walls along the ENTIRE northern AND southern borders for what BushCo are pissing away in Iraq to their war contracting kickbacking cronies.

It's a matter or priorities. There is nothing wrong with wanting to KEEP AMERICA A MELTING POT where we all MELT AND EVENTUALLY BECOME AMERICANS, and not BECOME A SOLELY HISPANIC CULTURE, which is exactly where we will end up if the current situtation is allowed to continue.

Diversity rules. I'm the son of an immigrant to this country. But I never learned her language. That's the first step.

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» good point. Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» A WALL?! You must be kidding... Posted by: Aufklaerung_Baboon
It's nice to be compassionate about immigrants
Posted by: kathat on Jan 29, 2007 8:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But wait until they come to your neighborhood. My first hand experience all over town is there are 20 people living in a 3 bedroom house, there are 8 cars parked in the yard, there is graffitti painted on the sides of the house, and even the little kids beat up the rest of the neighborhood kids and steal from them. They park their cars on the lawn so it is a muddy mess, they have garbage from all those people spilling out to the street. Talk to them?? I wish I could speak the language.
A rare TB showed up here recently in the nursing home...a form usually only seen in third world countries. What illegal immigration means is they don't get vaccines and health check and so we and our children are exposed to health risks that will only get worse.
I have nothing against legal immigration because it addresses all the problems of health, language and keeps the numbers at a managable level.
I hate both plans Congress has come up with....are you telling me this is our best and brightest?? A moron can see the solution is in Mexico, not in what we do here. We need to work on holding the Mexican Gov't accountible for starving and trying to eradicate their poor populations.
They need to deprivatise the banks and redo NAFTA to more benefit Mexico, and they need to hold corporations accountable for thei workers no matter where they live.

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A few glaring blind spots in this article.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Jan 29, 2007 8:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all, any discussion of religious institutions and illegal immigration should certainly cover the sactuary movement in the 80's for people from Central America who were fleeing the Reagan-Bush-Negroponte death squads set up by the School of the Americas (Negroponte exported those torture methods to Iraq with the approval and active support of Rumsfeld, Cambone, Miller, Steele, etc.) - at least a contrast-and-compare issue.

Secondly, any discussion of illegal immigration should include an assessment of the pressures that cause people to leave their families and everyone they know to hike hundreds of miles across burning deserts to work as slave labor in the US, where they can be deported at any moment - and at the center of that issue are the 'multilateral free trade agreements' championed by both George W. Bush and earlier, by Bill Clinton, as well as by Reagan and Bush Sr. - all under the guise of 'promoting free trade'.

These agreements allow US corporations to move in and destroy local economies, whether in Mexico, Africa, Korea or India - the difference being that Mexico is a lot closer (but in Europe, it's the Africans who are 'the big illegal immigrant problem'. Come on - you go to someone's country, steal everything they've worked to build, and then complain when they sneak into your country in the hopes of getting a little of it back?

The only thing this article demonstrates is how gullible and misinformed and manipulated the brainwashed religious right is - don't condemn them, pity them.

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What Christ Would Have Done
Posted by: b4upoo on Jan 29, 2007 9:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who wish to be patriots are trying to serve two masters. A careful reading of the New Testament easily will demonstrate that Christ's actions were highly aimed at collapsing worldly governments. After all Christ's family lived under the oppression of an invading Roman Empire. There is no way that a Jew in His era wanted to preserve the current governmental status. A portion of His teachings had the hidden hook of aiming at destruction of worldly governments. For example "Take all that you have and give it to the poor." would have quickly destroyed every government if the people had actually complied with the teaching.
And now we see another unanticipated situation unfolding. The U.S. government has gone astray and poses a very real hazard of becoming a fascist state. Who is to say that being over run with illegal immigrants and thus collapsing our government just might be the best thing that could happen to us? Torture and secret trials and secret prisons are not part of any government that I wish to support.

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Lou Dobbs is the Grand Screechapee of the Ku Klux Klan
Posted by: edsmith on Jan 29, 2007 9:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With propagnadists like him ahead of the issue it matters little a person religion. To memebers of the Anglo Elitist society all people of other colors are wetbacks.

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AMEN!!!
Posted by: kwfryatl on Jan 29, 2007 11:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
:o)

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For Joshua Holland and others...
Posted by: cmaciain on Jan 29, 2007 11:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one, including yourself, is answering the simple questions of why. Why can't people legally come here? Josha, you stated "40% of people here came legally and their visa expired". So why don't they go home like the law states? Why don't they get their visa renewed in a timely manner? If it's because of paperwork and time delays, I'm sorry but we ALL face that. And --big question--what about the other 60%?! Are they here illegally? Why can't they come legally? For all those people who support those illegally here, why aren't you supporting those people who want to leave the US? Why not demand that Canada, the UK, and other countries allow people to come illegally and get benefits? I don't care that people come here, I care that people aren't following the very steps I have to take if I wish to move out of country. If it's time consuming and costly, SO WHAT? Everyone else puts up with it. Those illegally here need to be deported. If a company hires illegal workers, they should be heavily fined. Those illegally here should also be listed on a national list. If caught here twice illegally, they should be imprisoned for a short sentence then deported and told they can never be a US citizen. They gave up that opportunity when they broke the immigration law more than once.

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» RE: For Joshua Holland and others... Posted by: Joshua Holland
Don
Posted by: gdonald on Jan 29, 2007 12:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alertnet is as much a web site for liberal Democrats as Rush Limbaughs is for Conservatives. That is not an attack on either one, it is a fact. We should all care less about both sides. What I think is unethical is the attack dogs on this wep page always manage to equate anyone who is a christian conservative in the same boat as Dobson and the FRC,( which is no different than what they accuse the other side of doing) and that really couldn't be further from the truth. In fact there is a growing trend among Christians such as myself , that find the Neocons and some of the supporting conservatives to be as big a danger to our Constitutional Republic as the liberal Democrats are.

This great Republic is in a Constitutional Crisis being created by both neocons and liberals. It doesn't make one difference to liberals or conservatives that the Constitution and Bill of Rights is being destroyed it only matters to the two opposing sides to see who comes out on top. So for as much as Aler Net decries the conservative movement Alternet is really just another pawn in the power play to see which side will control the country.

Immigration and every other issue that we must as a Republic deal with can never afford to dealt with on an emotional level. A Republic is run by Rule of Law. Rule of Law is different than the mob rule we now have where every issue is decided by emotions and the mob and thus destroying the rule of law. This is why we see chaos and violence errupting all over the country because the emotions rule on every issue. Emotions belong in the home, belong in the church, belong in the opera houses and movie theatres but emotions have no place in governments. Our Bureaucracies are now run by those who are dictating policy based upon the emotions called Political Correctness which is nothing more than Hegelian Dialectics. It is causing a breakdown of the rule of law and of the common sense that once prevailed in this country. For nearly two centuries Immigration policies were never a serious problem until PC (emotional idiocracy) came along. God help this Republic and save it from the ignorant masses that haven't a clue that they are destroying their Country by following the fools.

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» RE: Don Posted by: babs
» RE: Don Posted by: gdonald
» RE: Don Posted by: freedomhawk
AlterNet Idiocy
Posted by: HarryFreeloader on Jan 29, 2007 12:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who Would Jesus Deport? Probably the idiots that wrote this article. Don’t you people down there have anything better to do?

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RE: They're afraid of everything.
Posted by: HarryFreeloader on Jan 29, 2007 12:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What has your comment to do with the price of beans? If they're scared, then you're a raging maniac.

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses
Posted by: sephias on Jan 29, 2007 12:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've never seen such flawed logic. what an assumption to make. Our freedoms and prosperity aren't derived or a beneficial consequence of having borders. Those rights and freedoms were manifested by free thinking minds and fought for by brave souls including yes...IMMIGRANTS!. This country is what it is to day because of IMMIGRANTS, they bulit this country along with slave labor of Africans brought here in chains. So let's not pretend this country is some kinda panacea of freedom and liberation. These slaves and immigrants were exploited for profit to build this nation. and you have generations of priviliged White Americans have benefitted from it. Now you say they aren't entitled to benefit from it.

Remember the part if the constitution about in "alienable rights" ( no pun intended) well it doesn't say for citizens only it says they are for EVERYONE. You should get down on your knees everyday and thank the people who pick the crops, and make your food , wait on you, watch your children and make your clothes etc.

This is indeed a moral issue but the religious right-wingers would have you believe otherwise. There is a higher law than that of immigration law. It is the law of humanity and how we treat each other is important. The fact of the matter is that illegal immigration as you call it is the result of vicious economic policies perpetrated by the USA in coordination with the ruling class of Mexicoand others to expoit the would be migrant. They make living conditions so intolerable and take away people's natural livelihoods so that there is no choice but to migrate to to SURVIVE.

the following poem is inscribed o the Statue of Liberty. This is the America of myth that doesn't really exist but could if we raised our gaze higher.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

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Even Jesus Wasn't An Illegal Immigrant...
Posted by: baylorlawyer07 on Jan 29, 2007 12:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ms. Maruskin cherry-picks verses that are advantageous to her. I wonder how she would feel about 1 Peter 2:13 " Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."

Remember that these people have violated the law. They are not just mere migrants or refuges. The rhetoric that you employ is fallacious, because you equate a person who did not violate any immigration laws with those who do.

Indeed, even this article is ladden with "pro-illegal" rhetoric. When it makes reference to "anti-immigrant" rhetoric, one conjures up the concept of Ku Klux Klan ralies, trying to keep our race pure. And yet the true meaning of many immigration hardliners is that they want these immigrants to go through the process legally.

In this aspect I possess the moral authority to speak. I am very pro-immigrant. My wife is an immigrant to the U.S. And yet if I stand opposed to blanket amnesty to 30 million people who knowingly violated the laws of a soveriegn nation, I am deemed "anti-immigrant" and risk the prospect of hell.

My mother in law is still in her native country. My wife and I have tried multiple times to bring her in; we've tried sponsoring her for a work visa, a green card, a vistors visa... but all of these have been legal. Are you now saying that if I break the law, that could possibly be the easiest and most efficient manner to have her here, with the prospect of immunity on the horizon?

The problem is that "pro-illegals", as is the author here, are defining the issue as one of religion. It's not. It's one of practicality. Notwithstanding that seemingly every person on the planet hates America, almost every person on the planet wants to be here. Why? Because America offers jobs, security, advancement, hope… One problem is that we don’t have room for 6 billion people. But the major problem, and one that is driving the current issue, is that even we, the richest country in the world, do not have the resources to allow every person in the world the standard of living of the average American.

Let's just be honest. We can't please everyone all of the time. We have to shut the door sometime. It's called scarcity. There is more demand in the world than there is supply. And to think otherwise is dishonest and delusional.

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» RE: ven Jesus Was Kind Posted by: Lauren
here's part of the problem
Posted by: DaBear on Jan 29, 2007 12:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I don't think white evangelicals are racist," says Rev. Samuel Rodriguez of the Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. "But the Latino community is starting to have some concerns that need to be addressed. We must start changing hearts and minds through dialogue. The risk of polarization is real."

He doesn't think w.e.'s are racist?! What part of their racist statements isn't he noticing?

It's high time to stop giving people a pass on their racism, plain and simple. If white pricks are spouting stoopid, call them on it, in plublic and give 'em a heavy shaming! In public! Stop prevaricating and equivocating for them.

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» RE: here's part of the problem Posted by: losingmyliberties
Curious ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland on Jan 29, 2007 1:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Moonray wrote:

Instead of recognizing this truth and responding honestly to it, liberals engage in all sorts of political gymnastics to avoid appearing unkind. But that doesn't make them correct on the issue. Liberal leaders mostly want to avoid alienating all those potential Democratic voters. That's why progressives could lose many races in '08 on the immigration issue.

I replied:

I wonder what you think the '"liberal position" on immigration is? Can you explain it, and tell me who represents its advocates -- who the "liberal leaders" on the issue are?

No answer up there. Anyone want to take a crack at it?

Inquiring minds want to know ...

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» RE: Curious ... Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Curious ... ot Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Curious ... ot Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Curious ... Posted by: Baal_Labs
» RE: Curious ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
Embrace Hispanic cultures. It's our only real option.
Posted by: soulfulnotes on Jan 29, 2007 6:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Hispanics are not Native Americans. The Hispanic culture is NOT Native American culture."

Actually, most of the Mexican and Central Americans who are coming here ARE native Americans. They are descendants of the Aztecs and Mayans who were here thousands of years before you were. The term "America" refers to the North and South American continents, as well as Central America. If you look at it from that perspective, they are Native Americans. They came down from Alaska after they crossed the land bridge during the Ice Age. Some stayed in what we call The United States of America, while some kept on going south.

Also, there is no "Hispanic" culture. There are probably 100+ Hispanic cultures. From Spain to Argentina to Peru to Colombia to Nicaragua to New Mexico/Texas to Cuba to Puerto Rico. Don't lump them all in one group. Maybe you should learn more about these cultures, because you will be living them in 20-30 years. The government won't stop the "surge." There's nothing you can do. Best we can do is welcome them, start a bilingual education program so their children can become literate in their own language as well as English, and so that ours can learn Spanish.

Everything changes. Whitey's not having kids. Brownie is.

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The Nation of Immigrants
Posted by: shinaabekwe on Jan 29, 2007 7:14 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear AlterNet Community Members,

I think it would behoove a lot of people to remember that the United States of America was founded by immigrants. The land now known as the United States once belonged to the many nations of indigenous peoples. In spite of attempted genocide, forced Christianization, land acquisition, removals, the outlawing of cultural and religious practices, boarding schools, and assimilation tactics many indigenous nations and communities have survived, though all of the survivors still suffer from the effects of all the human rights violations.

Yet, one doesn't see too may indigenous peoples calling for the mass deportation of all non-indigenous peoples from the US. Of course, no indigenous person -- Navajo, Lakota, Cherokee, Ojibwe, Hopi, or otherwise -- sits atop the thrown in the White House to call for such an action, even if the unthinkable happened, the deeply-rooted systemic racism in the US would ensure that Commander in Chief didn't have an ice cubes chance in hell of getting such legislation in place.

As the member of one of the indigenous nations, I urge the citizens of the US to not be such haters. Every citizen of the United States is a descendent of immigrants. Remember that. Connect with your local immigrant, documentd or undocumented, community and learn some empathy. Then go out and learn a bit about globalization, fair trade, and human rights; you'll be in a healthier, more compassionate frame of mind to appreciate the evils perpetuated by the US, in the past and in the present.

We must love one another or die,
-Civicly and Communally Engaged Student

"We've traveled this continent in accountable numbers
It's funny when you wanna call my people border-jumpers
You've crossed the ocean, we cross the river
and WE'RE the wetbacks - how the hell you figure?"
-Los Nativos

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» RE: The Nation of Immigrants Posted by: YogiBear
Confused
Posted by: TWilliams on Jan 29, 2007 10:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When did illegal immigration become a religious issue?

I am a liberal Democrat and I am against illegal immigration. I honestly think AlterNet has completely gone off of the edge with all of this religion bashing. It refuses to address the hard data regarding illegal immigration.

I wish we would see more articles that focus on the facts and fewer articles filled with hate filled rhetoric. This article accomplishes nothing.

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Give me a break
Posted by: TWilliams on Jan 29, 2007 10:11 PM   
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Give me a break.

Mexico has a horrid track record regarding human rights. Nearly every nation on the face of the globe has committed crimes against racial groups. China during the boxer revolution (not to mention the oppression today) Mugabe in Zimbabwe, Pol Pot in Cambodia...the list goes on.

"We are all immigrants." Well, not really. Native Americans are not immigrants. Furthermore, my ancestors were immigrants...but unlike 30 million South Americans they came here legally.

Respect the laws of this nation or leave.

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» RE: Give me a break Posted by: FascismIsUnpatriotic
JJB
Posted by: Johnb66 on Jan 30, 2007 2:14 AM   
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iN ALL THIS INSANITY ABOUT WHOS A RACIST VIS A VIS THE IMMIGRATION ISSUE i WOULD LIKE TO comment on a few things. First The focus is wrong the focus should be on Globalism the latest program of the super rich international capitalists we know as the new world order. It is really the same old story just with a new set of rules, One hundred and fifty years ago or there abouts Marx wrote about a bunch of super rich people who had reduced the working class to virtual slavery toiling away in their factories for a pittance, since then and especially since WW2 all of the "westernized countries created semi socialist governments and propogated things like widespread healthcare and education for the working masses, and colective bargaining for wages, This empowered the working classes and was responsible for creating thwe whole ",middle" class in the western world. However the oligarchy has never really given up power, they are the one who really follow Mao's dictum, "push out with a bayonet, if it strikes fat push deeper, if it strikes iron pull back for another day," Well that day came when the middle class which by now had become the couch potato class lost its iron and they were able to proliferate their new union busting device they call "free trade" which in reality means " which country full of starving peasants can make our stuff cheapest"? Ufortunately for Mexico they can't make stuff as cheep as south east asia and china so there are loads of Mexicans who come of age each year who have no work in that country, so unfortunately for us they pour over the borders willing to work for a few bucks an hour to feed their desparate families in Mexico, More unfortunately for us their are 5 to 7 million of them in California alone and because they pay virtually no taxes and do not have medical insurance they have swamped our government infrastructure and, between them and the loss of wages caused by " free trade" bankrupted the state. Of course no poitician of our great two party system will open his mouth to say so, The Republicans because they are part of the global oligarchy and the Democrats because of that and also they fear to alienate the key Mexican American consistancy which sustains them in power.
We in the Reform Party are not so politically correct and we can call a spade a spade.

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The issue should be broadened
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Jan 30, 2007 11:56 AM   
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Actually, illegal immigration is only a part of the question. The time has come to decide just what the country's "carrying capacity" should be.

In other words, draw a line concerning how many people do we want to have in the country. The point at which the benefits of adding more (which are pretty elusive already) no longer outweigh the all the downsides (more pollution, more traffic congestion, more making real estate prices difficult to afford for the average family, more drain on water tables that are already falling, etc. etc.).

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RE: They're afraid of everything. -- Stop calling humans "pigs."
Posted by: Pat Kittle on Jan 30, 2007 1:15 PM   
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We already cause pigs enough misery, without dragging them down to our level.

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Who would Jesus Deport?
Posted by: Praisebe on Jan 30, 2007 1:19 PM   
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As a matter of fact, Jesus is in the business of deportation. He deports sinners to Hell. Unfortunately, this would probably include the majority of the population in San Francisco. But, you're right, he probably wouldn't deport illegals. Jesus was not part of earthly law, but he paid taxes and abided by the laws so he could fulfill his earthly mission. If the law states that you need certain documentation to be in this country then get 'r' done or return until you are obeying law just like all the laws we must obey. Thanks, and God Bless

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» RE: Who would Jesus Deport? Posted by: faithlady
Who would Jesus deport?? It might be better asked who would He
Posted by: SamFox on Jan 30, 2007 2:42 PM   
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give permission to break into your country illegally.

The following are part of His point of view, but they don't fit well with the attempted sympathy grab of the lead.

Thou shalt not steal, any one?
How about Thou shalt not bear false witness?
We also have Thou shalt not murder, do we not?
How about some of those Q's??? The author of the lead has it totally wrong. But then again when you are trying to defend the untenable all kinds of misleadings, deceptions & so on come to the surface.

For a look at how illegals do the above 3 & more,

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/

The same old "feel sorry for the law breakers" has gotten really old!!! So are the tired justifications, misinformation, deceptions, name calling...fill in the blank...

For even more:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter88.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty2.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty149.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Schwiesow/jim6.htm

The above links are for those who want a truer perspective on the problem of ILLEGAL immigration. It is just as illegal to break into our nation as it is for some one to break into your home. Those who favor amnisty & seek to justify a deceptive agenda will rant & rave about what the stories say. Is any one going to write a lead story here on how it is OK to break into a citizen's home? There are many parallels to draw on. Not holding my breath...

SamFox

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A thought that Is my Opinion{please read}
Posted by: Krain61 on Jan 30, 2007 8:28 PM   
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I believe that the FED{Federal Reserve} is behind everything including the EU..Hear me out! The Fed who coins our money is mostly owned by the main bank in London..There were 12 when it started and the biggest owners were in NewYork and London.I'm thinking that since the trade centers ordeal that there was some serious consolidations and well how would you call it? Hostile takeovers! The EU is working on that side of the world slowly acquiring country by country by getting them in the EU..False pretence I believe! OK I never finished 10 grade but love history..In 1913 we sold our country to Them and since then they pretty much call the shots..Now we hear about New World Order! Well if they get the EU and own us they will indeed call all the shots.. Because if we do this with Canada and Mexico they will own not just North America
But most of Europe which means most of the world and now they will have there military and ours plus how many freaking fighters who really don't or won't know why or what there fighting for..I see it coming and yes you can call me nuts!
But I see the writing and I'm not liking it..That's why we soon will not have our gun rights here in the states...Or Government has sold us out many many years ago but something like this takes time..i think it was some Russian who said America will be taken with out a shot over here being taken..So think long and hard about what I said and remember where you heard it! Krain061

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Jesus probably would uphold the law
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Jan 31, 2007 8:09 AM   
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Jesus said that we should obey the laws of our nations and keep our religion between us and God. I'm not religious, but those liberal ranters who think they know what God wants us to do on every topic are scary. We should enforce our immigration laws, and if it requires deporting 11 or 12 million illegal aliens, then let's do it! These Mexicans don't want to have to learn English, pay taxes, or obey the law; all they want is to soak up our benefits and turn every neighborhood into a duplicate of the sleazy Third World they just left.

What we should do is strictly enforce the rules against hiring illegals and actually penalize the employers, while deporting the illegals. Bring our troops home from Iraq and put them on the Mexican border, with orders to return fire if fired upon. Hit those drug dealers with a rocket grenade if they fire on the troops and see how long it takes to secure the borders.

Why not? Because that slimeball Bush is selling out the American people as fast as he and his co-conspirators can! His corporate masters want cheap labor, so he mouths platitudes about immigration and looks the other way. Give that man a pink slip!!!

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who would jesus deport
Posted by: pfm on Jan 31, 2007 11:31 AM   
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I am inclined to believe he would begin with George Bush and Dick Cheney and those in their administration. It wouild be a wonderful beginning.

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» Dick cheney who? Posted by: FascismIsUnpatriotic
sorry your comment
Posted by: sephias on Jan 31, 2007 12:18 PM   
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makes no sense at all except to maybe you.

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Don't believe the hype
Posted by: sephias on Jan 31, 2007 12:21 PM   
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corporate controlled media would have you believe that crimes in on the rise and it's all because of as you say Illiterate gang bangin blah blah blah.

don't be so simple minded for god's sake

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» RE: Don't believe the hype - Posted by: FascismIsUnpatriotic
RE: They're afraid of everything. OH??? I am not.
Posted by: SamFox on Jan 31, 2007 4:10 PM   
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What are we afraid of pray tell??? (Pun optional :-) )

What breed of animal would use your language?

Life for me is hardly lived in fear. I am not afraid of the "man" even though as Christian I advocate for the RE-legalization of cannabis & hemp. I am sure not afraid of the devil as Jesus beat him up with a big ugly stick. (Think His cross.) Nor am I afraid to tell you the truth about Who He is...Seems to me you are more afraid that He might just be who He claimed to be, thus thou dost protest so much.

How much research have you done regarding Him any way? To posit some actual facts about our "cultural fabric misconceptions" rather than unsubstantiated generalizations are called for.

You say it's all about us. How so? If it were only about me I would not waste my time trying to reach you & tell you & others that He is real. He touched my life in way that I cannot deny. He would do the same for you if you would let Him. He can prove Himself to any one who will honestly seek Him out. How? It is different for each individual, my experience is unique to me as yours would be to you. He is here...just reach out in an open & willing to change if needed heart. Nothing to fear from a myth... but then again you may fear He is not a myth.

SamFox

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faithlady
Posted by: faithlady on Jan 31, 2007 4:26 PM   
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The usual silliness attends the notion that ALL religion is merely tribalism. That opinion is the product of watching too much Jerry Falwell. In fact, the mainstream, progressive faith community is specifically oriented to universality, including of non-believers, in quest of a more moral universe for us all. And in that respect, we actually outnumber the religious right, we care about 'the stranger' and all issues of social justice, and we rarely get polled to reflect that.

As for immigration: Let's get some history straight: until 1952 this nation had NO immigration laws. Oh it had EXCLUSION laws all right - especially for Asians - but if you wanted to come to the US, you just showed up, with or without documents, gave your name, passed a limited medical exam, and came on in. You didn't need a job, family ties, a sponsor, or any observable skill. Only the untended 'feeble minded' (how could Bush pass that test?) and those with a few diseases were turned away.

So let's not be hypocrites. NONE of our families got here by today's so-called 'legal' standards. We really WERE the wretched refuse. The anti-immigrant sentiments of today existed against us in the 1850s, 1890s, 1920s. Immigrants are such a cheap and available target for what ails our nation and about which we really need to get serious.

Aren't immigrants today precisely those people we want and need here? They are incredibly hard working and focused on the American Dream. They come in large part because they have been driven out of their own lands by economies we've helped to decimate. Starving people rarely just roll over and die however inconvenienced you may be by that. On the whole I will trade any dedicated immigrant for one of my slacker relatives who lives to be served by the world. Hard work? What's that? So get off your high horses, anti-immigrant advocates. We need these people, and they give far more than they take. Get tough on deporting those who break serious laws, sure. But let's be honest about our own history and our nation's real needs.

And please - get over your prejudices about religion. It's just as mentally stultifying as the prejudices held by the religious right. Gag.

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Once again, this atheist shall have to give these fools a bible lesson...
Posted by: doctorsquared on Jan 31, 2007 10:39 PM   
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While I think Paul was probably a repressed gay man (not that there's anything wrong with that) who hated women and I could not care less what he thought, bible-believin' christians must be either forgetting this verse:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28 [KJV])

or perhaps they are left unable to extrapolate Paul's likely meaning to include all nationalities, not just Greek versus Jew, by their lifetimes of being intellectually beat down by simpering graduates of fundamentalist seminaries.

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Bush Should Be your Starting Point
Posted by: bob t on Feb 7, 2007 9:49 PM   
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May I remind you right wingers that it is Bush and his corporatocracy who want illegal immigrants and their cheap labor. So when you complain, start there. It is Bush and your corporatocracy who are building the NAFTA Superhighway and ending our now very porus borders which borders will be non-existant when the Superhighway is done. So you have no one but yourselves to blame because it is you who voted for Bush.

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