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Rights and Liberties

Is There a 'Middle Ground' on Choice?

By Julian Sanchez, Campus Progress. Posted November 14, 2006.


Finding a "compromise" on abortion is a bad idea, no matter what certain prominent Democrats say.
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Editor's note: This article originally appeared on CampusProgress.org.

Someone must have slipped a textbook on quantum mechanics into the offices of the Democratic Party. Careening desperately toward a more "moderate" stance on abortion rights, centrist Democrats are now hard at work searching for Schrödinger's Fetus: alive and dead at the same time. Indeed in a trend that has been developing for years, a few high-profile anti-choice Democratic candidates, including Heath Shuler in North Carolina and Bob Casey in Pennsylvania, won election on Tuesday.

John Kerry rankled pro-choice activists during the 2004 campaign by suggesting that his party should recruit more pro-life candidates--advice that the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee apparently took to heart, offering primary endorsements to pro-lifers such as Casey this year. A speech by Hillary Clinton, describing abortion as "a tragic choice" that she hoped one day would "not ever have to be exercised," won kudos from Slate columnist Will Saletan, who wrote: "Once you embrace that truth--that the ideal number of abortions is zero--voters open their ears."

The idea that abortion should be, in Bill Clinton's memorable formulation, "safe, legal, and rare," is appealing, if only because it would be clearly preferable if effective sex education and broad access to contraception made unwanted pregnancies less common. But framing that worthy goal as a means to the end of reducing abortion would be both a moral and strategic mistake. Solomonic attempts to split the difference will collide unpleasantly with the reality that Schrödinger's Fetus, like its feline predecessor, is always either alive or dead under scrutiny.

Abortion raises deep questions about the origins and basis of moral personhood, so one's position on abortion should be "radical," in the etymologically precise sense of "going to the root." Abortion is a difficult and complex question if we suppose that the fetus is a person with interests and rights that must be weighed against those of the mother. But the proposition that fetuses are not moral persons is both true and worth defending loudly. Even very late in pregnancy, when a fetus may have some sort of rudimentary awareness, it lacks all the features traditionally advanced as moral distinctions between humans and other animals: a sense of self or identity, the capacity for abstract thought and reflection, and the capacity for moral choice. But the vast majority of abortions, about 98 percent, take place before the 20th week of gestation, well before the cerebral cortex is "wired up" to the rest of the nervous system. At this stage, the fetus has nothing that could reasonably be described as conscious awareness.

The only reason for regarding an abortion as more regrettable than a root canal, then, is the belief that moral personhood is not fundamentally about having a certain kind of mind. This is a strange view, when you think about it: If we are ever visited by some alien species, we will decide what kind of treatment we owe them by reflecting on the sorts of minds they have, not by poking at their genetic structure. If the most popular basis for considering fetuses persons is some sort of theory about souls, giving credence to this view tacitly endorses the notion that public policy ought to be tailored to accommodate moral premises whose sole basis is theological.

Treating fetuses as persons has harmful consequences, even if we simultaneously insist that their interests are trumped by women's right to control their bodies. For one, it means endorsing the notion that the one-third of American women who will have an abortion will be killing a child. And in the political realm, how uneasy we are about abortion will determine what measures short of an outright ban we are willing to entertain as means of ensuring that abortion remains "rare." Hillary Clinton, for instance, has suggested that because "religious and moral values" are strong predictors of abstinence, we should "support programs that reinforce the idea that abstinence at a young age is not just the smart thing to do, it is the right thing to do." But if there is nothing seriously immoral about abortion, then this sort of unseemly government-sponsored religious indoctrination would gain little of importance even if it were effective.


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See more stories tagged with: democrats, abortion, choice, centrism

Julian Sanchez is a Washington, D.C. based writer and a contributing editor for Reason magazine. You can read his blog here.

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The bigger question...
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 14, 2006 1:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More of the continuing debate about abortion--snooze...

But the article does bring up another interesting question: How far will this new batch of "moderate" Democrats go in their desperate attempt to be loved and accepted by wacky right?

They may be anti-abortion these days, but I bet they would gladly be for drowning puppies and tripping old ladies if they thought the wind was blowing that way.

I predict that the next scandal will be Hillary and Joe Lieberman caught smoking behind the mall because all the cool kids are doing it.

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» RE: Reality and reason Posted by: Edward George
» RE: Reality and reason Posted by: joking7
reason
Posted by: rsaxto on Nov 14, 2006 3:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abortion is an area that should be decided only by reason informed by genuine truth from genuine science. Since science did not exist when most basic religious texts were written, religion and faith are not relevant. What is good for the modern human race and good for the biosphere are the most relevant considerations. Right now, with overpopulation and overpollution, survival with decency is the major consideraton. All else is primarily irrelevant. Women should decide for themselves what measures they will use to create their desired number of babies at their desired time.

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» RE: reason Posted by: staringatthesun
» RE: reason Posted by: willymack
» RE: reason Posted by: staringatthesun
» RE: reason Posted by: jmooney
» RE: reason Posted by: b4upoo
» RE: reason Posted by: jmooney
» RE: reason Posted by: BJT
» Right and wrong Posted by: jmooney
» RE: reason Posted by: xennonette
Where we must not compromise.
Posted by: Urstrly on Nov 14, 2006 4:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm really impatient with Hillary and others who see abortion as a greater tragedy than a child being raised by unprepared and ill-equipped parents (or grandparents) without access to decent health care and education. Thousands of children are languishing in foster care. Americans are adopting abroad rather than accept "imperfect" available children here. When the right cares as much about these kids as it does about the unborn, then we can talk.

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» RE: Where we must not compromise. Posted by: staringatthesun
Well...
Posted by: pball on Nov 14, 2006 6:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bob Casey's mentioned straight off, so I feel the itch to make a remark - I live in central PA (Altoona, "Pennsyltucky"), well out of either of the major metro areas. I can say with relative certainty that had the Dem candidate been pro-choice, Rick Santorum (evil incarnate) would have been giving the victory speech last Tuesday. Checking the breakdown by county on CNN, the race was very close outside of the two cities, most of the state looks almost white to me. Abortion is a key enough issue out here that while most of the urban voters probably wouldn't have swung around, the mid-state working class would have cut their noses off to spite their faces and given Rick the 20+% he needed to win. Hell, probably would have motived single-issue extreme-right antis who would have otherwise stayed home. Seriously - I know quite a few people who straight-up said "I usually would never vote Demmykrat, but that Casey's against abortions and for guns [NRA A rating didn't hurt either, exurban PA is pretty big on gun rights too] and he's promising to bring back the jobs!" Doesn't help that the average age around here seems to be about 75; everybody moves towards Pitts or Philly once they hit 20.

I guess I'm a bit too much of a pragmatist and not enough of a moralist, but all things considered I'd much rather see a pro-life Dem than Santorum even if it is a compromise of principles.

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» RE: Well... Posted by: Think!
Inconsistent minority
Posted by: Leman on Nov 14, 2006 6:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a very interesting and thought-provoking article. It could've skipped all the pro-choice propaganda and still be interesting but it's still pretty good.
The issue of "centrist" politicians or "moderate" advocates or "undecided" voters is fascinating because this is where the tectonic plates grind before everybody wakes up from a quake and starts asking what happened. If I am too opaque - think of the 2004 election (which was not stolen, by the way - it was won beautifully with both skill and luck on the same side) and then about what happened a week ago. Both times, it was the "undecided", the "moderate" - the "swamp" as the Jacobin used to call them - who determined the outcome.

Anyway, I think there is another kind of voters (I hope I am not the only member of this group): the inconsistent. I am pro-life, yet I will vote pro-choice. I am very much against smoking, yet I will vote against smoking bans. This list goes on. I believe it is your responsibility to vote for what is right and not for what would benefit you or your third cousin twice removed.

There is no moral justification for abortion. Pregnancy is a consequence of sex - that's it. Don't talk to me about the "accidents". Nobody gets pregnant from failing brakes or bursting pipes. When you spread your legs - you know what's coming. It's a fair deal: you can live on chocolate but you'll become diabetic, you can eat nothing but steaks but you'll get a heart attack, you can enjoy sex - but you'll get pregnant. How many women going for abortion did not know that at the moment their pants came off? It's not about whether abortion is a murder. It's about abortion as an escape from responsibility. Kinda like having a coronary bypass every two years, while you keep on enjoying those steaks. This is the truly immoral side of abortion - not the widely disputed fact that it's a murder.

That said - it's still up to you to go through those bypasses, it's still up to you to inject yourself with insulin. And it's still up to you to go and get an abortion. And it is up to me to give you the right to do all this with my vote - no matter how much it appalls me.

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» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: xenacat
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: Mamarianne
» holy cannoli Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: holy cannoli Posted by: Leman
» Actually he is consistent Posted by: Doug1956
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: Leman
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: Lizzzarde
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: scryberwitch
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: Leman
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: davmills
» RE: Inconsistent minority Posted by: Leman
I'm not familiar with the 'Third Way,' but...
Posted by: ekwhite on Nov 14, 2006 6:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do think there is a case to be made for unrestricted abortions in the first trimester, and reasonable restrictions thereafter. From my non-Christian perspective, I do believe we should minimize the suffering of the fetus, so that once it is developed enough to feel pain, we should not have abortion on demand.

In cases of rape, incest, risks to the life or health of the mother, or severe developmental disability, abortion in the second and third trimester should be fully legal. This should be more of a decision of the woman and her doctor, not a governmental decision.

The real tragedy about this, as mentioned by the author, is the lack of health care and child care support for poor mothers. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have compassion for the 'unborn child,' but to have no compassion towards them once they exit the womb.

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» Fetal pain is a red herring ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
Rights and Responsibility
Posted by: Poe on Nov 14, 2006 6:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Responsibilities!
A few of the first posts suggests that anyone who opposes abortion need to be more concerned about children born into poverty and “languishing” in foster care. Another brings up the topic of “overpopulation”. Certainly, it is very sad to see so many childred born into poverty and living a life without the love of a parent or parents. Given the availability and access to so many forms of birth control in this country, those are poor excuses to be used in the abortion debate.

I agree that abortion should remain a safe and legal procedure for all of the obvious and stated reasons, but, and I admit I don’t have facts in front of me, I believe the majority of abortions in this country are the result of irresponsible behavior. Women and MEN all have reproductive rights, but we have responsibilities also. Personally, I feel that if you are sexually active and not interested in bringing children into the world , but not using any form of birth control, you’re throwing your “reproductive rights” away.

rsaxto also brought up the issue of science. As an agnostic, I agree that science trumps religion, but keep in mind that advancements in science and medicine are also helping to bring a living, breathing human into the world well before full-term. Something that pro choice activists should keep in mind.

I put myself in the place of someone who is very religious and I understand how they feel that life begins at conception, and while life may indeed begin at conception, I think those that are pro choice can certainly argue that a clump of microscopic cells hardly qualifies human life as we know it. The question remains, when does a human life truly begin. I don’t have that answer.

Hey, I’m not a moral judge here, if you think that having an abortion is nothing more than removing a wart, then I’m not going to tell you what to do. But after my wife and I have lost six pregnancies, I tend to get a little angry when someone celebrates “choice” by wearing it on a shirt or a button.

I'd like to add, that I'm not talking about the morning after pill in my post above. Women should have access to Plan-B without question.

Poe

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» RE: Rights and Responsibility Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Rights and Responsibility Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Rights and Responsibility Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: ights and Responsibility Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: ights and Responsibility Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: ights and Responsibility Posted by: Basenjis
» Agreed. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Agreed. Posted by: Poe
» RE: ights and Responsibility Posted by: Lizzzarde
I'm pro-choice, but I don't think we can afford to be absolutist...
Posted by: medstudgeek on Nov 14, 2006 7:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm fine with third-trimester abortions, but we have to realize this is a conservative country and as one prior poster has said, abortion is a big deal for a lot of conservative people. A pro-life Democrat is never going to be as draconian as a pro-life Republican (he's moderated by his own party, and it probably will be a he in most of these places). I will be very surprised if choice is seriously imperiled in blue states.

I'm fine with San Francisco values (except for the fact that I can't afford to live there...you guys need to knock property values down...maybe have a bunch of guys parade naked down the street...oh wait...) but the rest of the country is not. I'd love to see the President kiss his black boyfriend on TV but it's not gonna happen for another 100 years so until then we have to keep the wingers down and we're not going to do it by refusing to compromise.

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Thank you
Posted by: godsbedamned on Nov 14, 2006 7:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for writing this. Many of the comments indicate the need for writing like this, even on a progressive site. As a companion piece, see a short article, "Reproductive Freedom 101," by sociologist Michael Schwalbe on CommonDreams.org (http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0411-34.htm). He, too, talks about the disservice that other women and men put on women who have abortions by emphasizing that abortion is "not the best option," "should be rare," and "isn't something I would do."

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Those that see life in black and white think at 5 year old level.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Nov 14, 2006 8:12 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There can be no intelligent discussion with people that think like children. There is no middle ground. Dogma is dead faith and brainwashing of the masses to think as little as possible. Onward "christian" warriors.

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Social Issue meme
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Nov 14, 2006 8:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
12 weeks is a good middle ground. In this day and age there is no reason why it should take more than 12 weeks to make a decision. But 12 weeks is really a major concession to the anti-choice side.

The key is to frame abortion as a non-political, purely social issue.

People should be passively discouraged from having abortions. But the government has no right to make those decisions for us. The government was not put here to determine who lives and who does not. It's funny how conservatives (so called conservatives) cannot seem to get that through their thick skulls.

If you really think about the abortion issue, it is actually totally bass-ackwards as a political issue. Liberals should be anti-choice. Because that's the usual liberal position. Conservatives should be pro-choice. The choice to have a child is very similar to the choice to have a gun. Isn't it mind boggling? I believe that in some parallel universe somewhere, this is how things are... conservatives are pro choice and liberals are pro-life.

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» RE: Social Issue meme Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Social Issue meme Posted by: Leman
gentlewoman
Posted by: lokicat on Nov 14, 2006 8:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you say you would vote against smoking bans. What about a ban on smoking in a car with anyone under 18? I grew up with two smokers with my father puffing away on his pipe for years as he drove us about. Didn't do much good for my lungs. Some things are just wrong. To force kids to endure cigarette or pipe smoke (or worse, pot) is bad enough. To force a woman to be akin to a brood mare with no choice as to how to deal with a pregnancy is cruelty and violates her human rights.
GR

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» RE: gentlewoman Posted by: kelt65
» RE: gentlewoman Posted by: Leman
Abortion sucks...
Posted by: terihu on Nov 14, 2006 8:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but is sometimes necessary, just like a root canal.

It kills me when the extreme pro-choicers push the idea that abortion, as a procedure, has no lasting effects. What total bullshit! Of course it does.

That position, that an abortion is no big deal, hurts the pro-life argument tremendously, because it goes against everything that we, as human beings, instinctively feel. It IS a tragedy. It IS killing a potential human being. It IS a bad, bad thing.

But it's still better than what the pro-lifers want...waves of unwanted babies languishing in foster care (or orphanages...those are coming back), abused or abandoned by parents who never wanted them, dead babies in dumpsters, dead women in back alleys.

It's pretty clear which is preferable.

But let's not pretend it's no big deal, ok? That's dishonest and makes pro-choicers seem delusional.

Why not acknowledge the genuine pain that arises from abortions? Maybe it would help push through funding and legislation for better contraception and education.

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» RE: Abortion sucks... Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Abortion sucks... Posted by: terihu
» RE: Abortion sucks... Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Abortion sucks... Posted by: jabra
» RE: Abortion sucks... Posted by: jaby
Suggestion to the author
Posted by: WhuThe?!? on Nov 14, 2006 9:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please do not refer to anti-choicers as "pro-life". This terminology was cleverly crafted by the right and bought into by the sold-out press in order to insinuate that those that are pro-choice are anti-life. This terminology is nothing but a lie, as clearly demonstrated by their politics of those anti-abortion-rights individuals. Ironically, would be more accurate to say 'anti-life' than 'pro-life' since they oppose birth control (which prevents unwanted pregnancies, and therefore abortions), oppose entitlement programs to help the poor, support the death penalty, always support war, etc...I know anti-life won't ever be used to accurately portray them (hmmm, how about 'pro-hate'?) so we should all consistently use 'anti-choice'. Too many people unconciously have been pandering to them by using their chosen, deceptive terminology for too damned long!

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» RE: Pro-Hate Posted by: patvic1405
abortions
Posted by: specialcowboy on Nov 14, 2006 9:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abortions for some, miniture american flags for others?

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A Choice
Posted by: Nanocore on Nov 14, 2006 10:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
More and more choices will come to us all and the answers are just as varied. Each of us has the ability to understand and choose, if we can all remember that this process isn't unique but all encompassing of society we might see the complexity of every individual's world. Preserve the choice of others and you preserve a choice within you. Ban the choice of others and you ban a choice within you.

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Guys, men, male persons...
Posted by: carcinoid112 on Nov 14, 2006 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when you get pregnant, you can have a say about the medical care of a pregnant person. Until you CAN get pregnant, shut up, OK?? And until YOU are ready to put your money where your mouth is on "the babies" and adopt every child that's already in 'the system' all y'all anti-choicers of any stripe can just shut up.

It would be a wonderful world indeed, if only wanted pregnancies happened and those wanted DID happen as the couple wished. (And if a frog had wings...) But, this isn't that wonderful world. Unwanted pregnancies happen. Medical problems happen. Fetuses die in utero...but the wording of some proposed legislation would ban the removal of that fetus. (Ah, well, if the 'mother' dies, she dies, tough luck. She KNEW when she had sex that there was a possibility that she'd get pregnant and have the fetus die in utero and then not spontaneously abort and she'd die of that.)

Sounds pretty stupid there, right?? But when people choose to stick their noses into other people's healthcare, it can happen. Personally, I find it completely morally repugnant that men use Viagra and Cialis and all sorts of things... And I find it HORRID that people choose to ignore the Preparation of Fate/God/Osiris for their early demise, and actually have SURGERY to remove tumors and heart blockages and... Like I said, stupid.

So, male people, I would make a deal with you. You don't interfere in women's medical issues, we won't interfere in yours.

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» RE: Guys, men, male persons... Posted by: YogiBear
Two thoughts
Posted by: porgygirl on Nov 14, 2006 10:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
RE: "Even very late in pregnancy, when a fetus may have some sort of rudimentary awareness, it lacks all the features traditionally advanced as moral distinctions between humans and other animals: a sense of self or identity, the capacity for abstract thought and reflection, and the capacity for moral choice."

You could say the same about babies, so I don't think this is a good argument for the non-personhood of fetuses.

RE: "the 'nuanced' view that abortion should be 'mostly illegal.' Which is to say, they favor banning abortion with exceptions for rape, incest, or threat to the life or health of the mother"

Those who advocate this policy do not seem to have thought much about implementation. Would a girl or woman have to go to court and prove she had been raped, or was the victim of incest? This is a nightmarishly intrusive scenario.

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» RE: Two thoughts Posted by: morticia
» RE: Two thoughts Posted by: VannaLaRoche
Is this "middle ground"?
Posted by: NthnBrazil on Nov 14, 2006 12:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My personal position on abortion has always been for the procedure to be legal (even freely available) for any and all for the first 3-4 months of pregnancy and then illegal except to save the life of the mother thereafter. As much as "Middle Ground" may be unconscionable to those on the extreme ends of the debate, I believe a federal law (perhaps even an ammendment) along these lines could be passed with support from the American people and put the whole isse to bed once and for all. Seems to me the reason this hasn't happened yet is that extremists on either side like the soapbox/distraction the issue provides.

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It's A Woman's Right!
Posted by: mstenger on Nov 14, 2006 1:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the Dems would frame the issue correctly--that this is a women's rights issue--whether or not a fetus is a person is irrelevant. A fetus is NOT a person, however, and a woman IS, therefore, her rights trump!

This should not even be a political issue, but as long as it is, we must pound home the fact that a woman's reproductive freedom is simply non-negotiable. I cannot understand how any woman could possibly think otherwise.

So if you don't like abortion, don't have one. No one but the pregnant woman herself has the right to decide whether or not she will give birth.

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» RE: It's A Woman's Right! Posted by: Alexa
THE DIRTY SECRETS ABOUT ABORTION
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 14, 2006 1:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why Pro-Choicers Aren’t Really So Pro-Choice, And The True Reality From The Pro-Life Side

Why Alternet gives more room to posting "abortion" articles is beyond me.

P.S.: In case you didn't hear, the "free" trade pact with Vietnam was defeated soundly, marking the first time Congress actually cares about the lives of men and women !

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The usual false dichotomy
Posted by: icemilkcoffee on Nov 14, 2006 1:52 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As usual, the author is trying to force everyone on the left to adopt this militant pro-choice stanze by presenting it as a black or white all-or-nothing debate.

Adopting the argument that since the fetus lack the self awareness and intelligence that characterize a human, it doesn't deserve protection as such. Using this line of argument, what's stopping us from killing born babies?

I think a very good middle ground can be had. Right at the moment of conception, when the fetus is not much different than a malignant cell, abortion should be legal and unfettered (RU486, etc). By the end of the 2nd trimester, when the fetus is functionally no different than a living, breathing baby, abortion should be extremely limited, to say the least. In between those 2 stages, there should be a continuum of increasing regulations. And during the 3rd trimester, when the baby is technically viable (able to survive outside of the womb), no abortion should be allowed. Any woman who wants to terminate the pregnancy then can do so by inducing a live birth. Those who claim to be 'pro-life' should provide the care for the resultant unwanted babies.

I think this is a compromise position most americans can live with. The extremists on both sides wil lose this debate. Because the majority of americans are centrists on this issue.

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» RE: The usual false dichotomy Posted by: icemilkcoffee
» Agreed... Posted by: mjabele
Its not a tumor....
Posted by: albrechtkrausse on Nov 14, 2006 3:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
thus spake Herr Schwarzenegger in the classic, ridiculous movie "Kindergarden Cop".
Both sides are so ridiculous in this "debate" its painful.

On the one hand you have these religious zealots talking about "not killing babies" but at the same time (many, not all) hate to promote any kind of education, social programs, tax incentives, etc to help educate poor girls/women about sex, veneral disease, costs of babies, cost of abortion, adoptions, pre-natal care, etc. Likewise they value the life of the baby more than the life of the mother and ignore health issues or tragic situations like severe retardation and awful birth-defects that essentially would cause the baby to die soon after birth.

On the other hand you have people (many, not all) who insist that there is no baby involved and its totally just a 'choice' similiar to whether to drink Coke or Pepsi. And abortion is some kind of sacred right of passage to true, enlightened womenhood. Of course, there is no 'choice' in these people's minds about having sex, using protection, different kinds of sex, etc. All sex is rape remember. It all about power and control they state. Oh yeah, and any child should have the right for a medical procedure without any parental notification. I guess its ok if my daughter could've gotten a boob-job also without consent? Or open-heart surgery? Where do you draw the line?

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» RE: Its not a tumor.... Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Its not a tumor.... Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Its not a tumor.... Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Its not a tumor.... Posted by: albrechtkrausse
compromise? with whom?
Posted by: DaBear on Nov 14, 2006 4:21 PM   
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It seems to me we're being asked to "compromise" on an adult issue where the other party is a bunch of emotional- intellectual children in adult bodies. No one can compromise with fundamentalists, period.

For those who see this issue as black and white there can be no compromising with such people. Listen to their arguments... look at what they've written in these comments alone and that explains a lot. If you're a grownup, an adult--that is you understand that the reality of abortion is profoundly gray and therefore not the purview of legislation (which is by nature inherently black or white)--you're really just an extremist to those that see abortion through childrens' eyes. There is no compromise possible because they are not capable of understanding "compromise." When your kid lacks the capacity of a fully developed frontal lobe, a grownup steps in and acts as a surrogate frontal lobe, you don't "compromise." The author of the piece is correct, despite his meandering reasoning.

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Abortion IS Murder
Posted by: WitchyNy on Nov 14, 2006 8:51 PM   
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I am getting old.
So many people today do not know what it was like when abortion was illegal. It was medical doctors who finally demanded abortion become legal- because they were sick of dealing with so many women coming into the ER every friday and saturday night- bleeding to death, from coathanger abortions.

A 17 year old roommate of mine was one.
So let's just call a spade a spade. Abortion IS murder. Fine.
Let's call it murder in self-defense and let women make their own hard choices, about their own bodies, if they want to give birth or not.

Otherwise, there is another word for forced
'labor'....SLAVERY.

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be opinionated!
Posted by: JMM on Nov 15, 2006 3:04 AM   
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Unlike most political topics, it is not difficult for me to express my views on abortion. Perhaps I see things too simply. Pregnancies in their third trimester should not be aborted on the grounds that the fetus is no longer a concentration of cells, but a human life. It is capable of hearing, moving, responding to stimuli like sound, pain and light. In fact, after the seventh month, chances are high that the baby would survive is born prematurely. Therefore, it is a life and cannot morally be aborted this late in its mother’s pregnancy.

When abortions are considered early on however, I believe the mother has a absolute right to make that choice. It is her body. The changes, the emotions, the hardships will all take their toll on her and her alone and to go through something as significant as childbirth and the nine months proceeding it is nothing a woman unwilling should be expected to endure. There is something to be said about free will. Something great to be said. It is a human right and a right that no one should be deprived of.

I do agree that pregnancy is obviously a consequence of sex. There is a chance, even with any form of birth control, that sex will lead to a pregnancy and soon enough, a baby and a life to care for. The consequence, however, is almost totally assumed by the mother. Should she not also face the same liberties as the father to put her own needs and desires first? Is it fair or even humane to expect her, because of one group’s views of morality, to carry this pregnancy to term?

pro-life debates are commonly backed by religious views of morality. Who are we to decide, though, based on our own views, that what is moral for one is also moral for another? In a country that promotes freedom of religion, why should we all be expected to assume the same beliefs? And why should law be based on merely one groups ideals? Perhaps the more logical thing would be to biologically determine when a life is considered a life. Not a fertilized group of cells, an egg, or a fetus capable of becoming a life, but a life in which abortion becomes murder.

What has recently becoming interesting in the abortion debate and in the recent election is the proposal to require minors to inform their parents that they are pregnant before they are permitted to have an abortion. While I can certainly see the positives in this suggestion, it also seems to me that whether considered legal or not, abortions are going to occur. In times when abortions were first being experimented with and were certainly outlawed, desperate women were using household objects like candles or hangers to perform personal abortions. Illegal medical abortions were also being performed behind closed doors and should be either a) require parents to be notified or b) outlaw abortion all together, these are the kind of situations we might find once more.

In other countries, this is an issue as well. In the UK, for example, they are facing similar concerns about teen confidentiality and BBC published a Q&A online about it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_ news/england/nottinghamshire/3942353.stm Basically parents feel it is their right to know while others fear for the safety and health of the children.

I don’t think abortion is favorable. I’m not saying it would be my choice, but I do think, that as a woman: both human and American, I should be, like any other woman, entitled to that choice. It is my body, my mind, my free will. The choice should be individual. I think in responding to this issue, as well as most other human rights issues, one should do so passionately and with opinion. The abortion moderate, as they discuss in the article, does little to support or advance either side and leaves open a dangerous opportunity

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Definition of Personhood
Posted by: Scottdmw on Nov 15, 2006 8:38 AM   
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What we have with abortion is a disagreement about the definition of personhood. If a fetus is a person, then all arguments about choice are moot, no person has the right to make a choice to kill another person for any reason. That's murder, and everyone agrees the government and law have the right to stop it.

This is not the first time there's been a disagreement about the definition of personhood. Two centuries ago, there was a similar disagreement on whether blacks were people or not. Many said they weren't, that the government had no right to stop it if people wanted to own slaves. Many said if you don't like slavery don't have one, or that eliminating slavery would cause too many hardships and problems, or that non-slave-owners just didn't understand and shouldn't have a say in the matter.

So, as a practical matter, what do you do when half the people in the country believe something is a person and the other half don't? The definition of personhood, contrary to what others have posted, is not something you can prove with science. It is a philosophical and religious question.

I think that if there is any reasonable doubt that something is a person, you have to error on the side of the doubt, and there is no question that a large proportion of the population's strong belief constitutes a reasonable doubt. There have been far too many times in history when majorities of people have claimed that some group or other are not people and not deserving of the full protection of the law. We look back on those cases and judge those people very harshly, and so future generations will to us for allowing abortion.

As a final point, several people brought up the issue of illegal coathanger abortions and the pre-Roe days. An interesting read for people interested in this is Bernard Nathanson's confession on how he and the other founders of NARAL lied extensively to get abortion legalized. http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

Scott

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» RE: Definition of Personhood Posted by: McJulie
It is my child too
Posted by: TonyGottlieb on Nov 16, 2006 9:39 PM   
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What are male procreative rights?

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» RE: It is my child too Posted by: jaby
the value of potential persons
Posted by: gabeeisenstein on Nov 17, 2006 5:29 PM   
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The main fallacy of this article can be seen by applying its criteria to people who are asleep or in a coma: the value of a fetus isn't based on its PRESENT mental contents but on its POTENTIAL ones. Or to state the point another way: the question isn't whether the fetus IS a person, but rather, what value do we place on beings at different stages of the continuum from potential or incipient persons to full-fledged persons (the latter arguably existing only as adults)? This question, unfortunately for politicians and strategists, has no simple black-and-white answer.

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WHEN ABORTIONS OCCUR
Posted by: sallyjrw on Nov 17, 2006 11:28 PM   
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WEEKS' GESTATION* NUMBER PERCENT
Total: 1,363,690: 100.0%
less than 9 weeks: 727,900: 53.4%
9-10 weeks: 317,230: 23.3%
11-12 weeks: 152,720: 11.2%
13-15 weeks: 90,020: 6.6%
21+ weeks: 18,010: 1.3%
*Measured in number of weeks since last menstrual period. Note: Data are from 1995. Source: Alan Guttmacher

Wow. Over 90% of abortions occur within the first twelve weeks. Of course it's not a shocker to anyone who has studied the issue. And to those that have studied it know that late-term abortions are most often relating to medical problems of either the fetus or the woman. Your average pregnant woman doesn't sit around for 6 months before deciding maybe she doesn't want to have a baby after all. So to hear people say abortion should be illegal after the second trimester shows complete stupidity.

Here is someone's personal story about aborting a wanted fetus at 22 weeks.

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Eye catcher
Posted by: YogiBear on Nov 18, 2006 9:59 PM   
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By the way the headline "Is There a 'Middle Ground' on Choice?" is very funny.

Translated, it reads: "Is there a choice on choice?

There should be press awards for headline writing.

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Is There a 'Middle Ground' on Choice?
Posted by: Ian MacLeod on Nov 21, 2006 12:09 PM   
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No. There; wasn't that simple?

Either everyone has choice, or only the rich and connected do. Or do you really think someone like Bush or Cheney would force a raped daughter to bear a bastard to an unknown but clearly inferior human, possibly diseased, likely from some trailer-trash sire? Think again, if you know how.

Laws are for peons, not rulers, and they see themselves as natural rulers, or even owners of everyone and everything.

THEY. ARE. INSANE.

Burying your head in the sand and hoping the bad stuff goes away is also insane. It's called magical thinking, and it's only suitable for the VERY young, who must be trained out of it in order to function in the real world, or in concensus reality, if you prefer. If you do not see the above three words as true, then they apply to you as well. I hope you enjoy the taste of sand.

Ian

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