COMMENTS: 88
Bush’s Brave New World of Torture
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The MCA is an unprecedented power grab by the executive branch. Among the Act’s worst features, it authorizes the president to detain, without charges, anyone whom he deems an unlawful enemy combatant. This includes U.S. citizens. It eliminates habeas corpus review for aliens. It also makes providing “material support†to terrorists punishable by military commission. And the military commissions' procedures allow for coerced testimony, the use of “sanitized classified information†-- where the source is not disclosed -- and trial for offenses not historically subject to trial by military commissions. (Terrorism is not historically a military offense; it's a crime.) Finally, by amending the War Crimes Act, it allows the president to authorize interrogation techniques that may nonetheless violate the Geneva Conventions and provides future and retroactive “defenses†for those who engage in or authorize those acts.
According to former Justice Department attorneyMarty Lederman, who opposed the Act, “the primary impact of the Military Commissions Act is†not to establish military commissions, but “to attempt to eliminate any judicial checks on the Executive's conduct of the conflict against al-Qaida.†Conservative law professor John Yoo, a supporter of the Act, writes, “In the struggle for power between the three branches of government, it is not the presidency that "won." Instead, it is the judiciary that lost.â€
As Yoo himself admits, “The new law is, above all, a stinging rebuke to the Supreme Court.†Several Supreme Court decisions in the last two years struck down Rumsfeld’s previous military commissions and combatant status review tribunals, and granted Guantanamo alien detainees and citizens held in military custody in the U.S. the right to challenge their detentions via habeas corpus petitions in U.S. courts. The Bush administration argued against these positions (and indeed, the administration’s belief that Guantanamo was not subject to U.S. court jurisdiction was the main reason it chose that as its detention site).
Congress has now, in effect, struck down these Supreme Court decisions that struck down previous executive decisions and actions. What next?
Habeas For Some, Not All
The first challenges to the numerous provisions in the MCA will undoubtedly be about the habeas corpus-stripping provisions. Habeas corpus is the right to have a court determine the legality of one’s imprisonment before trial. The U.S. Constitution states that “the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it.â€
Advocates of the MCA claim that habeas has never applied to foreign combatants captured on the battlefield. This claim begs the question: In the “war on terror,†how do you know where the battlefield is and how do you know who foreign combatants are? Habeas exists exactly for the purpose of challenging wrongful detentions and in the “war on terror,†it has already become abundantly clear that as many as 95 percent of the detentions may be wrongful.
The MCA contains two provisions that strip detainees of their right to habeas corpus. One provides that:
… no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006… including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions…The second provision, amending thehabeasstatute, adds the following:
No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.It would be surprising if these provisions were not immediately challenged. And those best situated to challenge them are, of course, those who stand to lose the most: the detainees who have already filed habeas corpus petitions.
The Justice Department has already asked the D.C. Circuit Court to dismiss 196 of these cases without any determination about the merits of the claims or the guilt or innocence of the petitioners. These cases involve people who have already spent several years in detention without any charges while their habeas petitions work their way through the courts.
In essence, the habeas-stripping law throws every alien detainee back to legal minus zero. In other words, such detainees cannot challenge their detentions; they must first challenge the law that disallows them from challenging the detentions. These detainees are not back to where they started; they are back to before where they started.
What will happen is this: after the government moves to dismiss the cases and the petitioners argue against dismissal (the D.C. Circuit Court has already ordered supplemental briefing in two packets of cases on the issue), the D.C. Circuit will either agree it no longer has jurisdiction (because the MCA stripped it) or it will rule that the MCA habeas-stripping provision is unconstitutional and the Constitution allows (or even requires) them to consider the petitioners’ claims. If the Circuit court rules in favor of the government, the petitioners will appeal; if the court rules in favor of the petitioners, the government will appeal. Either way, these cases will undoubtedly be consolidated and appealed to the Supreme Court.
Meantime, of course, the detainees remain in detention. Remember, detention centers are not hotels. Consistent abuse, humiliation, beatings, and even torture have been documented at these places. Further, recall that there is credible evidence that a great number of these detainees are not terrorists.
Secret Evidence, Hearsay And Coercion, Oh My
Other challenges will be about military commission procedures and rules of evidence that have generated controversy because they violate traditional norms of fair trial and due process. The Act permits the admission of hearsay -- a general no-no in federal courts, and for good reason, since any witness can simply make up what someone else says and the accused has no way to challenge its validity. Appeals on hearsay would likely be joined with other evidentiary, procedural, and substantive matters, although it is unlikely that hearsay appeals alone would be successful, since the D.C. Circuit Court will probably be deferential to the military commission findings.
Another MCA provision likely to be challenged will almost certainly be the section that allows the use of secret evidence where “disclosure would be detrimental to the national security.†Challenges to the use of secret evidence were made in the immigration context long before 9/11. The practice of using secret evidence showed such troubling results that in 1999, Congress nearly passed the Secret Evidence Repeal Act (SERA) “to ensure that no alien is removed, denied a benefit under the Immigration and Nationality Act, or otherwise deprived of liberty, based on evidence that is kept secret from the alien.â€
In the context of military commissions, where detainees can be sentenced to death, the concern over the use of secret evidence is magnified, and the practice will undoubtedly be challenged at some point by detainees. However, despite these concerns, courts -- including the conservative D.C. Circuit Court -- have shown a reluctance to second-guess government assertions of the need for secrecy. Thus, it is unlikely that any appeals will be won on this basis alone.
Another troubling provision allows coerced testimony to be admitted into evidence where the military panel decides it is “reliable and possessing sufficient probative value†and “the interests of justice would best be served by admission of the statement into evidence.†This clause appears to promote the use of coercion. What it means is that if either the detainee or a witness against him makes statements under coercion (which by some definitions might include torture) -- normally inadmissible in court -- his admissions can be used against the detainee. How a commission judge could determine the reliability of such testimony or what standard he would use to determine what is “in the interests of justice†are troubling uncertainties. Detainees will almost certainly argue that this provision is unconstitutional, but again challenges on this basis may fall on deaf ears.
Another traditional feature of due process in American courts that the Act removes is the accused’s right to “discovery†-- or to carry out his or her own investigation. Under the MCA, while the accused is permitted to present evidence in his defense, may cross-examine witnesses, and “shall receive the assistance of counsel†(or may represent himself), he has no right “to conduct his own investigation into the facts using the process of the court.†This is also likely to be challenged by detainees.
It is worth remarking that all these provisions will likely be challenged as being in violation of the Supreme Court’s 2006 ruling in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, which overturned the administration’s previous military commissions, noting that the Code of Military Justice could satisfy due process requirements.
Detainees will also likely challenge the provisions that strip them of the right to claim any protections under the Geneva Conventions. Loyola Law School professor David Glazier notes that: “For several reasons, [the Geneva Conventions] form a logical starting point for any effort to identify potential procedural constraints on the conduct of trials under the law of war.â€
But, again, federal courts have not widely favored application of Geneva as the basis for individual rights, despite Geneva’s requirement that it’s protections be incorporated into the laws of countries who adopted it.
Finally, the MCA helps to shield U.S. personnel from being held responsible for abuses committed during detentions or interrogations. This is widely considered to be the Bush administration’s primary motive in pushing this legislation: To keep Bush administration officials and others from being held accountable for war crimes or other grave violations of the laws of war.
While it does not grant absolute immunity, because it provides for defenses against conviction, the MCA makes it very difficult for a detainee to bring any lawsuit against U.S. personnel or officials for war and other selected crimes committed against him.
The MCA also modified the definitions of war crimes, including torture, narrowing the definitions in such a way as to permit certain forms of interrogation which may constitute torture under international law.
What’s the Upshot?
Since the MCA was passed in early October, legal scholars have pointed out its weaknesses. (See Jack M. Balkin, Marty Lederman and the Georgetown Law faculty blog.) It is a poorly drafted law, vague and overbroad to the extent that scholars cannot predict how courts will determine what some provisions mean.
But if courts are stripped from reviewing it at all, if a court may not review poorly drafted and internally contradictory laws, who will determine whether they are lawful or constitutional?
The commission procedures do not meet the requirements set forth by the Supreme Court, by the Military Code of Justice, or by due process. Given that these procedures apply only to detainees who have been designated for trial (not all detainees will necessarily be tried -- many may just be held indefinitely without any legal process), one must conclude that the MCA does not give detainees an adequate mechanism -- i.e., habeas corpus -- for challenging their detentions.
What kind of law provides imprisonment without the right of habeas or punishment without legitimate appeal? Without those standards, the law is just “victor’s justice†-- which is no justice at all. The Second World War is often understood to have come about at least in part as a result of the humiliation exacted upon Germans by the victors at the end of WWI. Victor’s justice breeds resentment. It breeds more war.
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Posted by: LeftWright on Nov 1, 2006 12:47 AM
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Old europe........'nuff said!
Y'all ready for some good ol' martial law? Yeehaw!
It all started with 9/11, take a closer look:
The New Pearl Harbor by David Ray Griffin
The Hidden History of 9-11-2001 Paul Zarembka, editor
The Terror Timeline by Paul Thompson
Towers of Deception by Barrie Zwicker
The War On Truth by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
The Politics of Heroin by Alfred W. McCoy
Crossing the Rubicon by Michael C. Ruppert
9/11: Synthetic Terror Made in USA by Webster G. Tarpley
From The Wilderness
Scholars For 9/11 Truth
911Truth.org
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
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» Bush Administration = Military Dictatorship...
Posted by: Cathyc
» It all started with 9/11
Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: It all started with status (the big flaw in human nature that makes us like cattle)
Posted by: rwa
» The Ongoing Electronic Neuron Violating Fascist Movement
Posted by: etisoppa
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Posted by: rsaxto on Nov 1, 2006 1:44 AM
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1. Democratic/Republican government
2. Freedom of speach
3. Our Constitution
Since the Bushies have sworn to uphold our Constitution and have decided not to uphold our Constitution, they are criminals which desperately need to be impeached if American freedom and justice is to survive.
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» Clear?
Posted by: edith
» RE: Clear?
Posted by: rsaxto
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Posted by: GVon on Nov 1, 2006 1:54 AM
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But what I just started to realize is the time scale involved here. With everything that's happened so far, such as the government promoting torture and talking in double-speak (lies), and the Military Commissions Act, it's starting to become clear to me that the transition is almost complete. The final phase will likely be within the next two years.
The final phase will look something like this: there will be some sort of nationwide disaster, necessitating a "temporary" state of martial law to restore order. From that point on, there will be no going back to the way things were.
I don't think Americans can depend on the Democrats to help us either. In the 2004 election, the Democrats failed to contest the widespread election irregularities, effectively turning their back on democracy and siding with the neo-conservatives. They try so hard to appeal to our crowd, to convince us that they are on our side, but when it counts the most they side with the neocons. They are another half of the same entity, the department meant to fool the more thoughtful and intelligent citizens into trusting them, while the neocons do the dirty part.
I really hope that I'm wrong, and that the next two elections will actually change things. But we are using the same voting machines as last time. And even if the Democrats do somehow take back congress and/or win the presidential election, it will all be for nothing if the President declares martial law, giving him even more power then he has now, mobilizing the military to suppress those who resist, perhaps even refusing to step down "until order is restored to the country" (meaning indefinitely).
This transitional fascist machine has already gone so far, has such a widely installed base in this country, has committed so much injustice and cruelty, has integrated so completely into our mainstream culture, that I find it far more likely that the President would seize absolute power through martial law, rather then surrender power as the result of a democratic election. If this is true, then we are soon approaching a new America, one that resembles one of the world's war-torn militant nations, one where day-to-day survival will have to be a top priority. The next two years will tell.
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» RE: What's next?
Posted by: bowriter
» RE: The Final phase?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Giving Up Power
Posted by: Artkansas
» Come Back Charlton Heston
Posted by: edith
» The Ongoing Electronic Neuron Violating Fascist Movement
Posted by: etisoppa
Comments are closed-
Posted by: algodees on Nov 1, 2006 2:38 AM
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» Govern yourselves?
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: slydad on Nov 1, 2006 2:57 AM
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Wake up out of your partisan coma people. These enemy combatants were shooting at us. They want their side to win. There's no country on the face of this earth that would or has ever extended habeas corpus to a POW while the conflict is still unresolved. After we win, then we can try to be a little more gracious and give them an opportunity to plead their case, but not until a clear victor has risen out of the smoke and dust.
Why can't you people get behind us and help us win the war instead of looking for every way under the sun to sabotage our efforts?
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» You are such a tossbag
Posted by: HeroesAll
» having a hard time concentrating?
Posted by: slydad
» RE: You guys just want them to win
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: You guys just want them to win
Posted by: symcokid
» This is a war!
Posted by: slydad
» If you say it
Posted by: edith
» RE: This is a war!
Posted by: sheena2u
» So be it
Posted by: slydad
» RE: So be it
Posted by: HeroesAll
» If Saddam was no threat
Posted by: slydad
» "These enemy combatants were shooting at us."
Posted by: Colin
» What do you mean by "win"?
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: What do you mean by "win"?
Posted by: symcokid
» Good response
Posted by: slydad
» Little guys won't stay in one place and fight like Men.
Posted by: edith
» RE: Good response
Posted by: sheena2u
» What's your plan?
Posted by: slydad
» What POWs? You must be dreaming.
Posted by: JP2
» RE: What POWs? You must be dreaming.
Posted by: Cathyc
» You need another hit?
Posted by: slydad
» RE: You need another hit?
Posted by: JP2
» I read 1984 in 1972
Posted by: slydad
» RE: I read 1984 in 1972
Posted by: JP2
» Then maybe you should start drinking
Posted by: slydad
» RE: Then maybe you should start drinking
Posted by: JP2
» Ignorance is Bliss, eh slydad? Let's look at your "terrorists" shall we?
Posted by: LeftWright
» You're mixing your facts
Posted by: slydad
» RE: You guys just want them to win
Posted by: GVon
» Impeccably!
Posted by: slydad
» I'll make up a simple scenario
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Gee, and I thought you were getting tired of me.
Posted by: slydad
» slydad - please read above post about your "terrorists"
Posted by: LeftWright
» Guantanamo --> Bagram --> Abu Ghraib ---> secret CIA prisons --> Guantanamo
Posted by: LeftWright
» Yes, I do
Posted by: slydad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jesse on Nov 1, 2006 6:22 AM
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Second, there is in fact a tradition of a sort of habeas corpus for POWs. You had to be someone the relevant country was at war with. This is why it was and is not right to simply round up a whole group of people and say "you are POWs now." They have to be soldiers ni a conflict. If you want a paralell with terrorist roganizations, look no further than Britain. There was a whole stack of judicial debate over the status of IRA men held in prison there. (The IRA said they were prisoners of war and thus should be allowed to wear their own clothes and operate as military units in the prisons, in one instance).
Third, the problem is that Bush has created the category of "enemy combatant" which hasn't got any precedent and exists by presidential fiat--that is, Bush can simply declare anyone he likes an enemy combatant with no provision for review. I do not trust any government, Democrat or Republican, with that power.
Fourth, habeas corpus is a fundamental premise of justice. It does not exist only to "let them win." All these judicial provisions exist to make sure you have the right guy and protect against political persecution and simple mistakes. Those provisions did not exist in 1690, when in Salem 20 people weere executed for doing something we now know is completely illogical (flying through the air on a broom, for one). If one cannot challenge one's detention there is no error-checking on the government. I don't think a lot of people in the FBI are evil, but I do think they are human. They could be wrong.
Now, this gets to another question you raise: winning. What is that, exactly? In old arnold Schwarzenegger films the terorists were "beaten" when he attacks the secret base of doctor Klong and kills loads of terrorists. But in the real world terrorist groups do not operate like that. There is no "Al Quaeda headquarters" someplace. The US could simply drop loads of nuclear weapons on Pakistan, Iraq, Indonesia, and maybe a few places in Africa for good measure. We have the power to put all Muslims in gas chambers. Genocide has been done before. But I for one will not sign on to become a monster in order to kill off the people who scare me. The problem is the "War on Terror" is like the War on Crime-- it can't ever end. Becasue terrorism is not a country or an organization, or even an idea, but a method.
But I don't expect some people to understand this kind of stuff. Because they don't get that having nothing to hide is no guarantee of freedom. They don't get that the laws exist (ideally) to protect the powerless, not to make the powerful more comfortable. They exist to provide accountability. Bin Laden could easily be tried in the US for mass murder, as Timothy McVeigh was. (There are allowances for in absentia trials).
Had we done that, we would have "won." As it is, the US has reacted in exactly the way he hoped--better even.
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» Well said, Jesse
Posted by: zipper696
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 1, 2006 7:36 AM
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For a peek at the future of perhaps millions of Americans read the following:
(Reuters) - Lawyers for alleged al Qaeda operative Jose Padilla have asked a Florida judge to dismiss the terrorism case against him, saying he was tortured and force-fed psychedelic drugs while held at a U.S. military brig for more than 3-1/2 years.
"The torture took myriad forms, each designed to cause pain, anguish, depression and ultimately, the loss of will to live," Padilla's attorney's said in the motion for dismissal filed in Miami federal court earlier this month.
"Often he had to endure multiple interrogators who would scream, shake and otherwise assault Mr. Padilla," his lawyers said. "Additionally, Mr. Padilla was given drugs against his will, believed to be some form of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) or phencyclidine (PCP), to act as a sort of truth serum during his interrogations."
Padilla, a U.S. citizen arrested in Chicago in May 2002, was initially accused of plotting to set off a radioactive "dirty bomb."
He was held in a brig at the Naval Weapons Station in Charleston, South Carolina for three years and seven months, without charge, before being abruptly transferred to a federal lock-up in Miami and brought into the official legal system.
While in the brig, Padilla was "tortured by the United States government without cause or justification," his lawyers said, adding that his treatment was "shocking to even the most hardened conscience."
The forms of torture included isolation, prolonged sleep deprivation, exposure to extremely cold temperatures and shackling in "stress positions" for hours at a time, they said.
The allegation that Padilla was forced to consume mind altering drugs -- reminiscent of CIA-financed mind-control experiments in the late 1950s -- appeared to be one of the first such accusations in connection with Washington's war on terrorism.
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Posted by: JP2 on Nov 1, 2006 7:55 AM
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As it always was in history.
To allow and use torture it is not a way to obtain valid informations.
It is a way to 1) scare the population down, 2) obtain the confessions you need to justify your actions.
That's what the Spanish Inquisition was about.
Now, because the war on terror is a fraud, and Al-Qaeda is a fraud, it's no surprise they need to torture. To have people say things that aren't true, or to exaggerate them.
The informations obtained with torture are usually twisted, false, or obtainable with more regular ways.
Also, even if that's your last resort to obtain that informations ("if only I could torture that guy he finally would speak out"), this is no good reason to use it. Simple as that. It's just something you don't do. End of story. If you do it, you're wicked, wrong, weak, and the loser, and you certainly cannot go around preaching democracy to the world.
During WWII, the Gestapo in Rome had their command post in the infamous Via Tasso. There, the opposers to Fascism were held and tortured. Cigarette burns, fingernails ripped, welder burns, suffocation, beatings, uncomfortable positions, daily interrogations, no contact with the outside. The whole shebang.
Many died during the interrogations. Others died in jail, waiting to be tortured.
They thought to break the resistance of the population that way.
Now I'm asking.
What good did that make to the Nazis in the end?
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» RE: Why they need so much to torture? One historic example.
Posted by: edith
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 1, 2006 8:14 AM
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» RE: The Witch Hunt is On
Posted by: edith
» RE: The Witch Hunt is On
Posted by: rwa
» Bingo!
Posted by: edith
» RE: Bingo!
Posted by: rwa
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DinTN on Nov 1, 2006 8:42 AM
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» RE: Wake up slydad!
Posted by: edith
» Wake up Edith!
Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Wake up Edith!
Posted by: sheena2u
» I'm up but others are snoring!
Posted by: edith
» RE: I'm up but others are snoring!
Posted by: rwa
» Give just one example
Posted by: slydad
» RE: Give just one example
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Give just one example
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Give just one example
Posted by: rwa
» Thanks
Posted by: slydad
» You can refrain from the racist insinuations
Posted by: slydad
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Posted by: eddie torres on Nov 1, 2006 9:10 AM
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Soylent Green - a country short of resources and heavy on people starts to eat itself
Rollerball - the individual is expendable and survival depends on subservience to the corporation
Brazil - a perpetual war on internal subversion by a bureaucratic torture state
The Handmaid's Tale - an ultraconservative leadership cult preys on desperate individuals for their genetic value
Democrats vs Republicans? It really doesn't matter.
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» RE: Good luck in the polls, Shining-City-on-the-Hill
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Good luck in the polls, Shining-City-on-the-Hill
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Good luck in the polls, Shining-City-on-the-Hill
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rwa on Nov 1, 2006 11:54 AM
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10/31/06 Army specialist Alyssa Peterson was an Arabic speaking interrogator assigned to the prison at the Tal-afar airbase in far northwestern Iraq near the Syrian border. According to the Army's investigation into her death, obtained by a KNAU reporter through the Freedom of Information Act, Peterson objected to the interrogation techniques used on prisoners. She refused to participate after only two nights working in the unit known as the cage. Army spokespersons for her unit have refused to describe the interrogation techniques Alyssa objected to. They say all records of those techniques have now been destroyed.
Instead she was assigned to the base gate, where she monitored Iraqi guards. She was sent to suicide prevention training. But on the night of September 15th, 2003, Army investigators concluded she shot and killed herself with her service rifle.
Alyssa Peterson graduated from Flagstaff High School and earned a psychology degree from Northern Arizona University on a military scholarship. She was trained in interrogation techniques at Fort Huachuca in southern Arizona, before being deployed to the Middle East in 2003.
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» Any Independent Investigation?
Posted by: edith
» RE: Any Independent Investigation?
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Any Independent Investigation?
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: The Fate of Those Who Question
Posted by: bob t
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 2, 2006 8:19 AM
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(November 01, 2006) -- The true stories of how American troops, killed in Iraq, actually died keep spilling out this week. On Tuesday, we explored the case of Kenny Stanton, Jr., murdered last month by our allies, the Iraqi police, though the military didn’t make that known at the time. Now we learn that one of the first female soldiers killed in Iraq died by her own hand after objecting to interrogation techniques used on prisoners.
She was Army specialist Alyssa Peterson, 27, a Flagstaff, Az., native serving with C Company, 311th Military Intelligence BN, 101st Airborne. Peterson was an Arabic-speaking interrogator assigned to the prison at our air base in troubled Tal-Afar in northwestern Iraq. According to official records, she died on Sept. 15, 2003, from a “non-hostile weapons discharge.”
She was only the third American woman killed in Iraq so her death drew wide press attention. A “non-hostile weapons discharge” leading to death is not unusual in Iraq, often quite accidental, so this one apparently raised few eyebrows. The Arizona Republic, three days after her death, reported that Army officials “said that a number of possible scenarios are being considered, including Peterson's own weapon discharging, the weapon of another soldier discharging or the accidental shooting of Peterson by an Iraqi civilian.”
But in this case, a longtime radio and newspaper reporter named Kevin Elston, unsatisfied with the public story, decided to probe deeper in 2005, "just on a hunch," he told E&P today. He made "hundreds of phone calls" to the military and couldn't get anywhere, so he filed a Freedom of Information Act request. When the documents of the official investigation of her death arrived, they contained bombshell revelations. Here’s what the Flagstaff public radio station, KNAU, where Elston now works, reported yesterday:
“Peterson objected to the interrogation techniques used on prisoners. She refused to participate after only two nights working in the unit known as the cage. Army spokespersons for her unit have refused to describe the interrogation techniques Alyssa objected to. They say all records of those techniques have now been destroyed….”
She was was then assigned to the base gate, where she monitored Iraqi guards, and sent to suicide prevention training. “But on the night of September 15th, 2003, Army investigators concluded she shot and killed herself with her service rifle,” the documents disclose.
The Army talked to some of Peterson's colleagues. Asked to summarize their comments, Elston told E&P: "The reactions to the suicide were that she was having a difficult time separating her personal feelings from her professional duties. That was the consistent point in the testimonies, that she objected to the interrogation techniques, without describing what those techniques were."
Elston said that the documents also refer to a suicide note found on her body, revealing that she found it ironic that suicide prevention training had taught her how to commit suicide. He has now filed another FOIA request for a copy of the actual note.
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Posted by: halg on Nov 2, 2006 4:16 PM
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Posted by: Gonnuts on Nov 6, 2006 6:09 PM
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We gave the keys to the kingdom to the village idiot! What the Hell do you THINK is going to happen?
The "idiot" will now, after being endowed with the power to extradite himself from any blame for whatever folly and evil he has committed in the past, suddenly will exhibit righteousness and wisdom?
No, no, no ... you poor, pathetic nitwits. No, here's what's going to happen.
If - and that's a BIG "if" - the Dems can somehow avoid the E-voting and election fraud and regain one or both the houses - bush will panic - before any investigations can be convened bush will bomb Iran. Naturally total chaos will ensue - the 800 detention camps that Halliburton has built get put to use and we march our happy way to a total police state and Armageddon.
That's the "good" news.
Or, the Repukes win/steal and all the above happens with gusto!
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» RE: What's Next?
Posted by: bob t
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LeftWright on Nov 1, 2006 12:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Old europe........'nuff said!
Y'all ready for some good ol' martial law? Yeehaw!
It all started with 9/11, take a closer look:
The New Pearl Harbor by David Ray Griffin
The Hidden History of 9-11-2001 Paul Zarembka, editor
The Terror Timeline by Paul Thompson
Towers of Deception by Barrie Zwicker
The War On Truth by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
The Politics of Heroin by Alfred W. McCoy
Crossing the Rubicon by Michael C. Ruppert
9/11: Synthetic Terror Made in USA by Webster G. Tarpley
From The Wilderness
Scholars For 9/11 Truth
911Truth.org
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
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» Bush Administration = Military Dictatorship...
Posted by: Cathyc
» It all started with 9/11
Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: It all started with status (the big flaw in human nature that makes us like cattle)
Posted by: rwa
» The Ongoing Electronic Neuron Violating Fascist Movement
Posted by: etisoppa
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rsaxto on Nov 1, 2006 1:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Democratic/Republican government
2. Freedom of speach
3. Our Constitution
Since the Bushies have sworn to uphold our Constitution and have decided not to uphold our Constitution, they are criminals which desperately need to be impeached if American freedom and justice is to survive.
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» Clear?
Posted by: edith
» RE: Clear?
Posted by: rsaxto
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GVon on Nov 1, 2006 1:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But what I just started to realize is the time scale involved here. With everything that's happened so far, such as the government promoting torture and talking in double-speak (lies), and the Military Commissions Act, it's starting to become clear to me that the transition is almost complete. The final phase will likely be within the next two years.
The final phase will look something like this: there will be some sort of nationwide disaster, necessitating a "temporary" state of martial law to restore order. From that point on, there will be no going back to the way things were.
I don't think Americans can depend on the Democrats to help us either. In the 2004 election, the Democrats failed to contest the widespread election irregularities, effectively turning their back on democracy and siding with the neo-conservatives. They try so hard to appeal to our crowd, to convince us that they are on our side, but when it counts the most they side with the neocons. They are another half of the same entity, the department meant to fool the more thoughtful and intelligent citizens into trusting them, while the neocons do the dirty part.
I really hope that I'm wrong, and that the next two elections will actually change things. But we are using the same voting machines as last time. And even if the Democrats do somehow take back congress and/or win the presidential election, it will all be for nothing if the President declares martial law, giving him even more power then he has now, mobilizing the military to suppress those who resist, perhaps even refusing to step down "until order is restored to the country" (meaning indefinitely).
This transitional fascist machine has already gone so far, has such a widely installed base in this country, has committed so much injustice and cruelty, has integrated so completely into our mainstream culture, that I find it far more likely that the President would seize absolute power through martial law, rather then surrender power as the result of a democratic election. If this is true, then we are soon approaching a new America, one that resembles one of the world's war-torn militant nations, one where day-to-day survival will have to be a top priority. The next two years will tell.
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» RE: What's next?
Posted by: bowriter
» RE: The Final phase?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Giving Up Power
Posted by: Artkansas
» Come Back Charlton Heston
Posted by: edith
» The Ongoing Electronic Neuron Violating Fascist Movement
Posted by: etisoppa
Comments are closed-
Posted by: algodees on Nov 1, 2006 2:38 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Govern yourselves?
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: slydad on Nov 1, 2006 2:57 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wake up out of your partisan coma people. These enemy combatants were shooting at us. They want their side to win. There's no country on the face of this earth that would or has ever extended habeas corpus to a POW while the conflict is still unresolved. After we win, then we can try to be a little more gracious and give them an opportunity to plead their case, but not until a clear victor has risen out of the smoke and dust.
Why can't you people get behind us and help us win the war instead of looking for every way under the sun to sabotage our efforts?
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» You are such a tossbag
Posted by: HeroesAll
» having a hard time concentrating?
Posted by: slydad
» RE: You guys just want them to win
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: You guys just want them to win
Posted by: symcokid
» This is a war!
Posted by: slydad
» If you say it
Posted by: edith
» RE: This is a war!
Posted by: sheena2u
» So be it
Posted by: slydad
» RE: So be it
Posted by: HeroesAll
» If Saddam was no threat
Posted by: slydad
» "These enemy combatants were shooting at us."
Posted by: Colin
» What do you mean by "win"?
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: What do you mean by "win"?
Posted by: symcokid
» Good response
Posted by: slydad
» Little guys won't stay in one place and fight like Men.
Posted by: edith
» RE: Good response
Posted by: sheena2u
» What's your plan?
Posted by: slydad
» What POWs? You must be dreaming.
Posted by: JP2
» RE: What POWs? You must be dreaming.
Posted by: Cathyc
» You need another hit?
Posted by: slydad
» RE: You need another hit?
Posted by: JP2
» I read 1984 in 1972
Posted by: slydad
» RE: I read 1984 in 1972
Posted by: JP2
» Then maybe you should start drinking
Posted by: slydad
» RE: Then maybe you should start drinking
Posted by: JP2
» Ignorance is Bliss, eh slydad? Let's look at your "terrorists" shall we?
Posted by: LeftWright
» You're mixing your facts
Posted by: slydad
» RE: You guys just want them to win
Posted by: GVon
» Impeccably!
Posted by: slydad
» I'll make up a simple scenario
Posted by: HeroesAll
» Gee, and I thought you were getting tired of me.
Posted by: slydad
» slydad - please read above post about your "terrorists"
Posted by: LeftWright
» Guantanamo --> Bagram --> Abu Ghraib ---> secret CIA prisons --> Guantanamo
Posted by: LeftWright
» Yes, I do
Posted by: slydad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jesse on Nov 1, 2006 6:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second, there is in fact a tradition of a sort of habeas corpus for POWs. You had to be someone the relevant country was at war with. This is why it was and is not right to simply round up a whole group of people and say "you are POWs now." They have to be soldiers ni a conflict. If you want a paralell with terrorist roganizations, look no further than Britain. There was a whole stack of judicial debate over the status of IRA men held in prison there. (The IRA said they were prisoners of war and thus should be allowed to wear their own clothes and operate as military units in the prisons, in one instance).
Third, the problem is that Bush has created the category of "enemy combatant" which hasn't got any precedent and exists by presidential fiat--that is, Bush can simply declare anyone he likes an enemy combatant with no provision for review. I do not trust any government, Democrat or Republican, with that power.
Fourth, habeas corpus is a fundamental premise of justice. It does not exist only to "let them win." All these judicial provisions exist to make sure you have the right guy and protect against political persecution and simple mistakes. Those provisions did not exist in 1690, when in Salem 20 people weere executed for doing something we now know is completely illogical (flying through the air on a broom, for one). If one cannot challenge one's detention there is no error-checking on the government. I don't think a lot of people in the FBI are evil, but I do think they are human. They could be wrong.
Now, this gets to another question you raise: winning. What is that, exactly? In old arnold Schwarzenegger films the terorists were "beaten" when he attacks the secret base of doctor Klong and kills loads of terrorists. But in the real world terrorist groups do not operate like that. There is no "Al Quaeda headquarters" someplace. The US could simply drop loads of nuclear weapons on Pakistan, Iraq, Indonesia, and maybe a few places in Africa for good measure. We have the power to put all Muslims in gas chambers. Genocide has been done before. But I for one will not sign on to become a monster in order to kill off the people who scare me. The problem is the "War on Terror" is like the War on Crime-- it can't ever end. Becasue terrorism is not a country or an organization, or even an idea, but a method.
But I don't expect some people to understand this kind of stuff. Because they don't get that having nothing to hide is no guarantee of freedom. They don't get that the laws exist (ideally) to protect the powerless, not to make the powerful more comfortable. They exist to provide accountability. Bin Laden could easily be tried in the US for mass murder, as Timothy McVeigh was. (There are allowances for in absentia trials).
Had we done that, we would have "won." As it is, the US has reacted in exactly the way he hoped--better even.
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» Well said, Jesse
Posted by: zipper696
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rwa on Nov 1, 2006 7:36 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For a peek at the future of perhaps millions of Americans read the following:
(Reuters) - Lawyers for alleged al Qaeda operative Jose Padilla have asked a Florida judge to dismiss the terrorism case against him, saying he was tortured and force-fed psychedelic drugs while held at a U.S. military brig for more than 3-1/2 years.
"The torture took myriad forms, each designed to cause pain, anguish, depression and ultimately, the loss of will to live," Padilla's attorney's said in the motion for dismissal filed in Miami federal court earlier this month.
"Often he had to endure multiple interrogators who would scream, shake and otherwise assault Mr. Padilla," his lawyers said. "Additionally, Mr. Padilla was given drugs against his will, believed to be some form of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) or phencyclidine (PCP), to act as a sort of truth serum during his interrogations."
Padilla, a U.S. citizen arrested in Chicago in May 2002, was initially accused of plotting to set off a radioactive "dirty bomb."
He was held in a brig at the Naval Weapons Station in Charleston, South Carolina for three years and seven months, without charge, before being abruptly transferred to a federal lock-up in Miami and brought into the official legal system.
While in the brig, Padilla was "tortured by the United States government without cause or justification," his lawyers said, adding that his treatment was "shocking to even the most hardened conscience."
The forms of torture included isolation, prolonged sleep deprivation, exposure to extremely cold temperatures and shackling in "stress positions" for hours at a time, they said.
The allegation that Padilla was forced to consume mind altering drugs -- reminiscent of CIA-financed mind-control experiments in the late 1950s -- appeared to be one of the first such accusations in connection with Washington's war on terrorism.
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Posted by: JP2 on Nov 1, 2006 7:55 AM
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As it always was in history.
To allow and use torture it is not a way to obtain valid informations.
It is a way to 1) scare the population down, 2) obtain the confessions you need to justify your actions.
That's what the Spanish Inquisition was about.
Now, because the war on terror is a fraud, and Al-Qaeda is a fraud, it's no surprise they need to torture. To have people say things that aren't true, or to exaggerate them.
The informations obtained with torture are usually twisted, false, or obtainable with more regular ways.
Also, even if that's your last resort to obtain that informations ("if only I could torture that guy he finally would speak out"), this is no good reason to use it. Simple as that. It's just something you don't do. End of story. If you do it, you're wicked, wrong, weak, and the loser, and you certainly cannot go around preaching democracy to the world.
During WWII, the Gestapo in Rome had their command post in the infamous Via Tasso. There, the opposers to Fascism were held and tortured. Cigarette burns, fingernails ripped, welder burns, suffocation, beatings, uncomfortable positions, daily interrogations, no contact with the outside. The whole shebang.
Many died during the interrogations. Others died in jail, waiting to be tortured.
They thought to break the resistance of the population that way.
Now I'm asking.
What good did that make to the Nazis in the end?
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» RE: Why they need so much to torture? One historic example.
Posted by: edith
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Posted by: rwa on Nov 1, 2006 8:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Witch Hunt is On
Posted by: edith
» RE: The Witch Hunt is On
Posted by: rwa
» Bingo!
Posted by: edith
» RE: Bingo!
Posted by: rwa
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DinTN on Nov 1, 2006 8:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Wake up slydad!
Posted by: edith
» Wake up Edith!
Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Wake up Edith!
Posted by: sheena2u
» I'm up but others are snoring!
Posted by: edith
» RE: I'm up but others are snoring!
Posted by: rwa
» Give just one example
Posted by: slydad
» RE: Give just one example
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Give just one example
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Give just one example
Posted by: rwa
» Thanks
Posted by: slydad
» You can refrain from the racist insinuations
Posted by: slydad
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eddie torres on Nov 1, 2006 9:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Soylent Green - a country short of resources and heavy on people starts to eat itself
Rollerball - the individual is expendable and survival depends on subservience to the corporation
Brazil - a perpetual war on internal subversion by a bureaucratic torture state
The Handmaid's Tale - an ultraconservative leadership cult preys on desperate individuals for their genetic value
Democrats vs Republicans? It really doesn't matter.
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» RE: Good luck in the polls, Shining-City-on-the-Hill
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: Good luck in the polls, Shining-City-on-the-Hill
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Good luck in the polls, Shining-City-on-the-Hill
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rwa on Nov 1, 2006 11:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
10/31/06 Army specialist Alyssa Peterson was an Arabic speaking interrogator assigned to the prison at the Tal-afar airbase in far northwestern Iraq near the Syrian border. According to the Army's investigation into her death, obtained by a KNAU reporter through the Freedom of Information Act, Peterson objected to the interrogation techniques used on prisoners. She refused to participate after only two nights working in the unit known as the cage. Army spokespersons for her unit have refused to describe the interrogation techniques Alyssa objected to. They say all records of those techniques have now been destroyed.
Instead she was assigned to the base gate, where she monitored Iraqi guards. She was sent to suicide prevention training. But on the night of September 15th, 2003, Army investigators concluded she shot and killed herself with her service rifle.
Alyssa Peterson graduated from Flagstaff High School and earned a psychology degree from Northern Arizona University on a military scholarship. She was trained in interrogation techniques at Fort Huachuca in southern Arizona, before being deployed to the Middle East in 2003.
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» Any Independent Investigation?
Posted by: edith
» RE: Any Independent Investigation?
Posted by: rwa
» RE: Any Independent Investigation?
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: The Fate of Those Who Question
Posted by: bob t
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rwa on Nov 2, 2006 8:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(November 01, 2006) -- The true stories of how American troops, killed in Iraq, actually died keep spilling out this week. On Tuesday, we explored the case of Kenny Stanton, Jr., murdered last month by our allies, the Iraqi police, though the military didn’t make that known at the time. Now we learn that one of the first female soldiers killed in Iraq died by her own hand after objecting to interrogation techniques used on prisoners.
She was Army specialist Alyssa Peterson, 27, a Flagstaff, Az., native serving with C Company, 311th Military Intelligence BN, 101st Airborne. Peterson was an Arabic-speaking interrogator assigned to the prison at our air base in troubled Tal-Afar in northwestern Iraq. According to official records, she died on Sept. 15, 2003, from a “non-hostile weapons discharge.”
She was only the third American woman killed in Iraq so her death drew wide press attention. A “non-hostile weapons discharge” leading to death is not unusual in Iraq, often quite accidental, so this one apparently raised few eyebrows. The Arizona Republic, three days after her death, reported that Army officials “said that a number of possible scenarios are being considered, including Peterson's own weapon discharging, the weapon of another soldier discharging or the accidental shooting of Peterson by an Iraqi civilian.”
But in this case, a longtime radio and newspaper reporter named Kevin Elston, unsatisfied with the public story, decided to probe deeper in 2005, "just on a hunch," he told E&P today. He made "hundreds of phone calls" to the military and couldn't get anywhere, so he filed a Freedom of Information Act request. When the documents of the official investigation of her death arrived, they contained bombshell revelations. Here’s what the Flagstaff public radio station, KNAU, where Elston now works, reported yesterday:
“Peterson objected to the interrogation techniques used on prisoners. She refused to participate after only two nights working in the unit known as the cage. Army spokespersons for her unit have refused to describe the interrogation techniques Alyssa objected to. They say all records of those techniques have now been destroyed….”
She was was then assigned to the base gate, where she monitored Iraqi guards, and sent to suicide prevention training. “But on the night of September 15th, 2003, Army investigators concluded she shot and killed herself with her service rifle,” the documents disclose.
The Army talked to some of Peterson's colleagues. Asked to summarize their comments, Elston told E&P: "The reactions to the suicide were that she was having a difficult time separating her personal feelings from her professional duties. That was the consistent point in the testimonies, that she objected to the interrogation techniques, without describing what those techniques were."
Elston said that the documents also refer to a suicide note found on her body, revealing that she found it ironic that suicide prevention training had taught her how to commit suicide. He has now filed another FOIA request for a copy of the actual note.
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Posted by: halg on Nov 2, 2006 4:16 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Gonnuts on Nov 6, 2006 6:09 PM
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We gave the keys to the kingdom to the village idiot! What the Hell do you THINK is going to happen?
The "idiot" will now, after being endowed with the power to extradite himself from any blame for whatever folly and evil he has committed in the past, suddenly will exhibit righteousness and wisdom?
No, no, no ... you poor, pathetic nitwits. No, here's what's going to happen.
If - and that's a BIG "if" - the Dems can somehow avoid the E-voting and election fraud and regain one or both the houses - bush will panic - before any investigations can be convened bush will bomb Iran. Naturally total chaos will ensue - the 800 detention camps that Halliburton has built get put to use and we march our happy way to a total police state and Armageddon.
That's the "good" news.
Or, the Repukes win/steal and all the above happens with gusto!
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» RE: What's Next?
Posted by: bob t
Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich?
Was "Jihad Jane" a Real Terrorist Threat? Or a Mentally Unstable Loner?
Ban the Box: People with Convictions Deserve a Second Chance




