COMMENTS: 109
The Stealth 'Feminists' Who Oppose Abortion
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The leaves are falling, the daylight waning, and the air has that bracing snap to it; 'tis the season of deceptive political advertising. Weeks before congressional elections, this usually this takes the form of negative television ads placed by the supporters of one candidate or another. But, on the Web, at least one issue-oriented group is offering a clever and upbeat form of the classic deceptive ad: Feminists for Life, a group that seeks to outlaw all abortions, no exceptions.
Now, perhaps, as the Feminists for Life literature says, it is possible to oppose all forms of legal abortion -- even those that would save the life of the pregnant woman -- and still be a feminist. But if one were to take such a stance and consider oneself a feminist, one would certainly believe that women should have access to contraception, right? Apparently not if one is a member of Feminists for Life, an organization that refuses to take a stand on whether or not contraception should be legal. (Note that few, if any, Protestant denominations take issue with the use of any kind of contraception, although some religious-right anti-abortion organizations regard the morning-after pill as an abortifacient.) When Feminists for Life has chosen to address the issue of contraception, it has invariably been to point out the health hazards posed in particular forms of birth control.
So, despite its self-description as a "non-sectarian" organization, Feminists for Life may as well be an office of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, which, together with the Knights of Columbus (a fraternal Catholic lay organization), co-sponsored the Feminists for Life's 2003/2004 advertising campaign. (Deirdre McQuaid, hired earlier this year by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops as the church's new "pro-life spokesperson," according to a Catholic Web site, came to the post from her staff position at Feminists for Life.)
You've got to hand it to the organization; its ads are always appealing, the best-known of them featuring an attractive young woman of indeterminate race, and the tagline: "Women Deserve Better Than Abortion." Hard to argue with that. As Air America's Rachel Maddow once told Tucker Carlson, it's not like women are running out to get "recreational abortions." I first noticed these ads perhaps two years ago, in the form of posters on the Washington, D.C., MetroBuses. (Someone took a Sharpie to one, yielding this result: "Women Deserve Better
The latest incarnation of the Feminists for Life advertising strategy -- which features a message that has been adopted by South Dakota supporters of the state's imminent referendum on an all-out abortion ban -- can be found right here, at The American Prospect Online: a cycling three-panel click-through window with the beckoning title, "Pro-Woman Answers" (panel one, which features the same photograph as in the "Women Deserve Better" campaign) "to Pro-Choice Questions" (panel 2, featuring a studious-looking young woman with glasses and a pierced nose). The third panel features a photo of a very glammed-up Patricia Heaton, celebrity spokesperson (late of the sitcom, "Everybody Loves Raymond"), with the headline, "FREE! Sign Up!"
Right from the get-go, Feminists for Life is hoping to lure in young women -- obviously from such liberal venues as the Prospect -- through the artful use of the all-but-branded term of the reproductive rights movement: pro-choice. Nowhere in its come-on ad on the Prospect's site will you find the name of the group -- the "for Life" piece being a dead giveaway of its intent -- nor will you find the terms "pro-life" or "right to life," signatures of the anti-feminist, anti-choice movements.
Okay, so you're a bright young woman looking for "pro-woman answers to pro-choice questions," so you click through for the (FREE!) sign-up, and you find yourself on a page at the Feminists for Life Web site featuring a letter from Serrin Foster, the organization's president, that presents Feminists for Life as a group occupying the middle ground in the abortion debate (as if there could be middle ground in this debate):
Since 1973, it's been the same thing. One side of the hotly contested abortion wars yells, "What about the woman?" The other side yells back, "What about the baby?" People have been pushed into their respective corners. It's hard to talk when there is all that distance between us. But Feminists for Life has been bridging the gap, answering the most critical questions in the most contentious places -- from Capitol Hill to college campuses -- with woman-centered solutions.Nowhere in Foster's missive does she tell her reader that her group opposes all abortions, even for the life of the mother, though she does hint at that platform a bit: "Perhaps you've wondered how to answer tough questions like, 'What about rape?' Perhaps you didn't want to choose sides or tell someone else what to do or think. Perhaps you just wanted a good answer for yourself." Now that you've signed up for your "pro-woman answers to pro-choice questions," you receive, via e-mail, a weekly answer to a "pro-choice" question.
Back in the day, during the John Roberts Supreme Court nomination hearing, I put my name on the Feminists for Life e-mail list when it was revealed that Jane Sullivan Roberts, wife of the since-confirmed chief justice, had served on the organization's board, and had done pro-bono legal work for the group. Consequently, without clicking through on anything, I have been receiving Foster's "pro-woman" wisdom via my ISP.
So, what about rape? That was the latest "pro-choice question" to which Foster provided an answer. In fact, she rhetorically asked herself how she would respond if her daughter was raped, and offered this answer:
I would love her and my grandchild unconditionally, and I would do everything in my power to prosecute the perpetrator to the fullest extent of the law. Out of our desire to save someone from suffering, it is normal to wish we could erase a painful memory such as rape. Unfortunately, the hard truth is that as much as we want to, we can't. Abortion doesn't erase a memory. Think about it. Could anything ever erase your memory of September 11, 2001?Is there not a single, oppressive, right-wing issue that 9-11 does not serve? Think this is untoward? Foster next trots out the stories of women who were conceived through rape; one woman asks if she "deserve[d] a death sentence." (A pro-choice question: If you were never born, would you miss not having existed? Maybe a Jesuit can take that one on.)
In positions it takes on other issues, Feminists for Life is indeed "pro-woman," whether in regard to its stance on the Violence Against Women Act or support for mothers on welfare. But it's hard not to wonder if those positions aren't just a beard, along with the term, "feminist," for the hard-core, misogynist agenda of the Vatican. The organization's no-exceptions anti-abortion position follows Catholic doctrine to the letter, a doctrine that has always demanded of women that they bear whatever burden men place upon them, and that they not soil the altar with the very bodiliness they represent by virtue of the means by which children are born. As notes Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, an organization of Catholics who support reproductive rights for women, "[Feminists for Life] fail to recognize the central premise of feminism, which is that women get to choose -- not them. All of us should be working to make choices better for women, but not eliminating choices." (Our call for comment from Feminists for Life, as of press time, had gone unanswered.)
In Foster's closing words on the "pro-choice" rape question, one finds the essence of what the church expects a woman -- no, a girlchild -- to bear :
...a student...told me that she was raped by her third cousin as a mere thirteen-year-old and had became pregnant. Her parents had helped her have the privacy she wanted during her pregnancy, and then she placed her son with two loving parents.Sounds a bit to me like an anti-child answer to a no-choice question -- no choice, at least, really, for the pregnant child. No wonder Feminists for Life must resort to deception to pad its rolls of e-mail recipients. The bishops must be proud.
I asked her, why did she make the decision to have the child -- when she was just a girl who had lived through what was arguably the worst of circumstances?
She said she would never pass on the violence that was perpetrated against her to her own unborn child. Now that is the strength of a woman! [Emphasis in original]
This article is available on The American Prospect website. © 2007 by The American Prospect, Inc.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: yellow on Oct 24, 2006 12:50 AM
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» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: questionthemark1
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: fearbiter
» Breast cancer claim
Posted by: BlueTigress
» Could you please elaborate?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: crashgrab
» Sorry didn't mean to post 3 times!
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: launcher
» I am opposed to all abortions
Posted by: LDavistrueblue
» RE: I am opposed to all abortions
Posted by: yellow
» RE: I am opposed to all abortions
Posted by: morticia
» Read answer above, LDavistrueblue...
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: edith on Oct 24, 2006 1:18 AM
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Posted by: rsaxto on Oct 24, 2006 2:38 AM
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Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 24, 2006 3:24 AM
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» RE: Still, it is a backhanded tribute to the concept of feminism.
Posted by: Ocean tides
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Posted by: BJT on Oct 24, 2006 4:22 AM
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FFL are not villains. That final, bolded paragraph is actually a very enlightened stance. There have been cases in the past where adult Christian women have been raped and impregnated. Not only did they have the child, but they kept and raised the baby, and forgave the rapist. Takes a bit more guts to do that than to just abort the child and live in bondage to anger at the one who wronged you.
I'm against government legislation on this topic in any direction. I believe abortion is murder, but I know that there is no way to enforce it on a society who does not itself fully believe that, and I do not wish to drive abortions underground so that more lives are threatened.
The venom of the above article only illustrates the hypersensitivity of the heathens in this country. The very existence of Christianity offends them, makes them feel attacked. I've even worked with people who see "God Bless!" at the end of an email from a stranger to be an unforgivable assault on their personal beliefs.
If the two camps can't be civil, why don't you just leave each other alone?
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» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Intraspecto
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: xennonette
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: mbarthel
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Zenobia
» They're Villains
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Ocean tides
» "G-d Bless" or "Heil Jesus"
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: "G-d Bless" or "Heil Jesus"
Posted by: crashgrab
» Anti-choice is not a snarl word
Posted by: crashgrab
» True irony
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: True irony & true deceptives
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: Anti-choice is not a snarl word
Posted by: monkeybrig
» Yes they are villians. . .
Posted by: fork
» Saying "Feminists For Life"....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: yellow
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: fork
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: flower
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 24, 2006 4:44 AM
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(1) A woman has four abortions because she doesn't like to use birth control of any kind, but doesn't want to have children.
(2) A woman is raped but decides not to have an abortion due to her personal beliefs.
Obviously these are difficult issues, but life is full of difficult issues. I'd think that both of the above situations are a little crazy, personally.
Let's consider another example, however:
(3) A woman finds she is pregnant; being single and in college (or high school) she decides to have an abortion - but abortion is illegal, and she tries to have a 'back-alley abortion' except that the doctor is really an undercover police officer. The woman is arrested and confined in a prison hospital under constant observation until the child is born, at which point she is charged with 'attempted murder of the unborn' and sentenced to 5-10 years in prison, while the child is sent off to a state-funded Christian orphanage.
As a male observer, I'm not directly involved in this - but it sure seems that the group described above would put in place laws that would lead to the third situation if they could. That just doesn't seem right, so it's probably wise to actively oppose such groups.
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» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: fearbiter
» Naive much?
Posted by: McJulie
» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: wolfdaughter
» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: Donna_Darko on Oct 24, 2006 5:19 AM
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» RE: well-connected
Posted by: goatini
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Posted by: hagwind on Oct 24, 2006 5:33 AM
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FFL lacks credibility as a feminist organization because its positions so closely resemble the same old patriarchal same-old. Advocating for the lesbian alternative could change all that. Sure, Pat Robertson won't like it, and neither will the pope, but you can't please all the guys all the time, right?
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» RE: Advice to FFL
Posted by: fork
» RE: Advice to FFL
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Advice to FFL
Posted by: Envi
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Posted by: Intraspecto on Oct 24, 2006 5:42 AM
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Futhermore, the problem of "stealth feminists" is a non-issue. Just because they dont agree on your view of abortion does not make them non-feminists. Many of them would probably agree about wages and healthcare and equality, but would say that they support pro-active choices concerning abortion.
In the end, it comes down to personal responsibility. Because we all know that no birth controls are 100%, responsible sexual behavior is needed- from BOTH MEN and WOMEN.
Yes, I am a man but one of common sense. Myself and my wife were virgins until we married (her due to religious beliefs and me because I just didnt believe in it until marriage). And it saved us a lot of problems. I know that not everyone feels this way, but a little common sense goes a long way in these issues.
Yes- I am pro-woman. Womankind is Mankinds other half, and our greatest strength.
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» RE: My thoughts
Posted by: mbarthel
» RE: Your thoughts... are incomplete
Posted by: McJulie
» RE if WOMEN used birth control?????????
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: if WOMEN used birth control?????????
Posted by: Intraspecto
» Women's rights is the issue
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: My thoughts
Posted by: Intraspecto
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Posted by: vincen13 on Oct 24, 2006 6:07 AM
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I'd just like to see how the law and the rhetoric would change if men were vulnerable to their lives being changed drastically by an unwanted pregnancy.
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» RE: Being Radical for the Sake of Discussion
Posted by: BlueTigress
» "shit happens" -- No excuses!
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» Heck, let's return to stoning!
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: "shit happens" -- No excuses!
Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
» RE: "shit happens" -- No excuses!
Posted by: flower
» RE: Being Radical for the Sake of Discussion
Posted by: fork
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Posted by: CJC on Oct 24, 2006 7:07 AM
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don't see that FFL is necessarily directly supporting the
SD abortion ban, for example.
Yes, they're clearly out there in public with ads and so
forth and they certainly aren't naive about the public debate
about reproductive rights. But as long as they are appealing
to individuals with "never use contraception" and "never
have an abortion no matter what" messages they can call
themselves whatever they like. Is it news that we don't
all agree?
Are they really "non-sectarian" or are they a front group
for a certain segment of official Catholic theology? What's
the evidence? Will Chief Justice Roberts rule on the law
in a secular society or on religious beliefs? That's the
important public question.
It really is hard to object to others having an uncompromising
"pro-life" personal position and practicing forgiveness
and understanding in the case of children conceived
through violence.
The Amish recently provided a very public lesson in
deep forgiveness. The resident conservative columnist
for the Boston Globe, Jeff Jacoby, oddly criticized them
for not wanting vengeance. Since the murderer was
already dead it's not clear on whom vengeance would
be wreaked in any case.
For myself, advocating for women's rights to contraception
and other forms of birth control has been a big part of
my personal and professional life. I loathe the moralizing
that some would foist on others. But a commitment to
freedom means having to tolerate other ideas. But when
it comes to the law reproductive rights must be protected
everywhere.
Remember that one of GWB's first public acts after his
inauguration in 2001 was to reinstate the "Gag Rule" and
prohibit the US from funding any international family
planning organizations that weren't publicly committed
to an anti-abortion position. Now that was vile. He probably
is thereby responsible for thousands or more uncounted
deaths of "innocent" (one of his favorite words) women
and children around the world.
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Posted by: okcamp on Oct 24, 2006 7:16 AM
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» RE: to force a rape victim to give birth
Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Oct 24, 2006 8:53 AM
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» How do you figure ??
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» I didn't say anything about "feminazi witch magic".
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What do you expect...
Posted by: crashgrab
» Oh, we already have...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Oh, we already have...
Posted by: crashgrab
» Well, make no mistake... I'm not saying all or even a majority are... but I do see it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» What I'm saying is keep your eyes and mind open... some are trying to negate choice...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What I'm saying is keep your eyes and mind open... some are trying to negate choice...
Posted by: crashgrab
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Posted by: Bracamontes on Oct 24, 2006 9:41 AM
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Posted by: terihu on Oct 24, 2006 9:46 AM
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Like Jews for Jesus, you gotta ask...why won't they just call themselves what they actually are? What are they trying to hide?
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Posted by: ogman on Oct 24, 2006 12:40 PM
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Posted by: ggmurray on Oct 24, 2006 2:16 PM
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People who aren't ready, should wait.
People who are sure they don't want children should request a simple sterilization procedure.
So the problem really is with the ones who are not ready, but get pregnant anyway. I think compassion is called for here, and a different solution for each situation - for each woman or couple, as the case may be.
I had an abortion many years ago, and for me it was in the end, a compassionate act. Not a decision arrived at easily, but one I have never regretted. From it I learned that each life is precious to God, and each one is cared for, here and hereafter.
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» RE: Who should and who shouldn't
Posted by: crashgrab
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Posted by: WyrdSister on Oct 25, 2006 8:11 AM
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Not having an abortion would then be your choice.
But once you start to force your beliefs on others, it is no longer reconsilable and no longer a personal belief.
I find it incredibly insulting when a group like this thinks that I am not responsible enough to make decisions regarding my own body.
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Posted by: stephanies419 on Oct 25, 2006 1:49 PM
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Posted by: imstephencrane on Oct 25, 2006 5:52 PM
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» RE: Don't they consider...
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Don't they consider...
Posted by: imstephencrane
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on Oct 26, 2006 5:52 PM
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Read this as an example of what they are going through.
Google "women murdered in guatemala" and check out how much fun that country is, too.
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» RE: Women in central America
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: FSD57110 on Oct 29, 2006 2:16 PM
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I was absolutely floored by this statistic - women are split on an abortion ban that would only allow abortions to save the life of the woman. There would be no exception for rape, incest or health. I guess I would be curious if this is true across the country or just an aberration to South Dakota.
However, I think this may be occurring because supporters of the ban, such as the Catholic Church of which I am a member, are using the arguments of FFL as the author notes. At our church 3 weeks ago, the sermon spoke of the woman's feelings and adopting the position that this is to save women (from themselves, presumably). The paper has had several letters from women who regret their decision as an argument to keep the ban.
Oh, by the way, the poll also asked the question if a rape/incest exception were included would you support the ban. In such a case the ban would win 56-32 with 58 percent of women (and 54 percent of men) supporting the ban. Only Democrats would not support such a ban - and that is by a 42-46 margin. So, I suspect that, should the repeal win on November 7, the SD legislature will pass another ban with the exception within 6 months. That measure will go to the Supreme Court.
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Posted by: marykderr on Oct 31, 2006 3:53 PM
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For example, if you sat down and actually conversed with prolife feminists, for example me: I have proudly identified as a prolife feminist for at least 20 years. I have fought for comprehensive sex education, full access to contraception, antiretroviral access, LGBT rights, the sexual/reproductive rights of disabled persons like myself, prevention and healing resources for domestic violence & rape, measures to increase male sexual & parental responsibility, cleanup of environmental toxins including those that impair reproductive health, family-friendly workplace policies, improved maternal child nutrition and health, etc, etc....in local, national, & global contexts...among other causes that save and improve human lives, born and unborn, in the abortion context & elsewhere....
On the online Political Compass test, my score puts me way out in left-libertarian field. I am a Buddhist practitioner with a profound interest in feminist spirituality, and with a staunch belief in the separation of "church" and state.
I am by no means the only person who just maybe possibly isn't telling a lie with the words "prolife feminist." There are a lot of us all over the world, both in the present and throughout the long history of feminism.
We are not liars out for the "triumph" of reactionary theocracy. We come from rather different places, to say the least. In fact we'd like to work more with prochoice feminists on common ground issues that will reduce abortion and expand women's nonviolent choices.
Would you kindly please, at least for a moment, even if just as some wacky thought experiment, set aside your dismissive stereotypes and entertain the possibility that some genuine feminists might actually oppose abortion/abortion as a general right?
If you don't find this message here plausible, I'd encourage you to visit this website for the new greatly expanded edition of the book ProLife Feminism Yesterday & Today: www.xlibris.com/prolifefeminism
I did thorough research, writing, & editing for this book & stand by the work.
The "excerpt" of the book presented there, which you can read at no charge, is the table of contents, which begins to show the long herstory & diversity of prolife feminists.
If you don't find the table of contents plausible, you (or anyone else who's a skeptic) are welcome to email me at marykderr@aol.com and ask to receive a copy of the book for free. (For anyone who is blind/visually impaired, there is a reader-friendly format I can send.)
Mary Krane Derr
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» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: morticia
» Cont'd
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: morticia
» A few more thoughts....
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 24, 2006 12:50 AM
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» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: questionthemark1
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: fearbiter
» Breast cancer claim
Posted by: BlueTigress
» Could you please elaborate?
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: crashgrab
» Sorry didn't mean to post 3 times!
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Fraudulent Fanatics
Posted by: launcher
» I am opposed to all abortions
Posted by: LDavistrueblue
» RE: I am opposed to all abortions
Posted by: yellow
» RE: I am opposed to all abortions
Posted by: morticia
» Read answer above, LDavistrueblue...
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: edith on Oct 24, 2006 1:18 AM
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Posted by: rsaxto on Oct 24, 2006 2:38 AM
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Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 24, 2006 3:24 AM
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» RE: Still, it is a backhanded tribute to the concept of feminism.
Posted by: Ocean tides
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Posted by: BJT on Oct 24, 2006 4:22 AM
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FFL are not villains. That final, bolded paragraph is actually a very enlightened stance. There have been cases in the past where adult Christian women have been raped and impregnated. Not only did they have the child, but they kept and raised the baby, and forgave the rapist. Takes a bit more guts to do that than to just abort the child and live in bondage to anger at the one who wronged you.
I'm against government legislation on this topic in any direction. I believe abortion is murder, but I know that there is no way to enforce it on a society who does not itself fully believe that, and I do not wish to drive abortions underground so that more lives are threatened.
The venom of the above article only illustrates the hypersensitivity of the heathens in this country. The very existence of Christianity offends them, makes them feel attacked. I've even worked with people who see "God Bless!" at the end of an email from a stranger to be an unforgivable assault on their personal beliefs.
If the two camps can't be civil, why don't you just leave each other alone?
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» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Intraspecto
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: xennonette
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: mbarthel
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Zenobia
» They're Villains
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Ocean tides
» "G-d Bless" or "Heil Jesus"
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» RE: "G-d Bless" or "Heil Jesus"
Posted by: crashgrab
» Anti-choice is not a snarl word
Posted by: crashgrab
» True irony
Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» RE: True irony & true deceptives
Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» RE: Anti-choice is not a snarl word
Posted by: monkeybrig
» Yes they are villians. . .
Posted by: fork
» Saying "Feminists For Life"....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: yellow
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: fork
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: flower
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: Ian MacLeod
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: They are not villains
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 24, 2006 4:44 AM
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(1) A woman has four abortions because she doesn't like to use birth control of any kind, but doesn't want to have children.
(2) A woman is raped but decides not to have an abortion due to her personal beliefs.
Obviously these are difficult issues, but life is full of difficult issues. I'd think that both of the above situations are a little crazy, personally.
Let's consider another example, however:
(3) A woman finds she is pregnant; being single and in college (or high school) she decides to have an abortion - but abortion is illegal, and she tries to have a 'back-alley abortion' except that the doctor is really an undercover police officer. The woman is arrested and confined in a prison hospital under constant observation until the child is born, at which point she is charged with 'attempted murder of the unborn' and sentenced to 5-10 years in prison, while the child is sent off to a state-funded Christian orphanage.
As a male observer, I'm not directly involved in this - but it sure seems that the group described above would put in place laws that would lead to the third situation if they could. That just doesn't seem right, so it's probably wise to actively oppose such groups.
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» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: fearbiter
» Naive much?
Posted by: McJulie
» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: wolfdaughter
» RE: The legal issue has to be considered
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: Donna_Darko on Oct 24, 2006 5:19 AM
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» RE: well-connected
Posted by: goatini
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Posted by: hagwind on Oct 24, 2006 5:33 AM
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FFL lacks credibility as a feminist organization because its positions so closely resemble the same old patriarchal same-old. Advocating for the lesbian alternative could change all that. Sure, Pat Robertson won't like it, and neither will the pope, but you can't please all the guys all the time, right?
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» RE: Advice to FFL
Posted by: fork
» RE: Advice to FFL
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Advice to FFL
Posted by: Envi
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Posted by: Intraspecto on Oct 24, 2006 5:42 AM
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Futhermore, the problem of "stealth feminists" is a non-issue. Just because they dont agree on your view of abortion does not make them non-feminists. Many of them would probably agree about wages and healthcare and equality, but would say that they support pro-active choices concerning abortion.
In the end, it comes down to personal responsibility. Because we all know that no birth controls are 100%, responsible sexual behavior is needed- from BOTH MEN and WOMEN.
Yes, I am a man but one of common sense. Myself and my wife were virgins until we married (her due to religious beliefs and me because I just didnt believe in it until marriage). And it saved us a lot of problems. I know that not everyone feels this way, but a little common sense goes a long way in these issues.
Yes- I am pro-woman. Womankind is Mankinds other half, and our greatest strength.
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» RE: My thoughts
Posted by: mbarthel
» RE: Your thoughts... are incomplete
Posted by: McJulie
» RE if WOMEN used birth control?????????
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: if WOMEN used birth control?????????
Posted by: Intraspecto
» Women's rights is the issue
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: My thoughts
Posted by: Intraspecto
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Posted by: vincen13 on Oct 24, 2006 6:07 AM
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I'd just like to see how the law and the rhetoric would change if men were vulnerable to their lives being changed drastically by an unwanted pregnancy.
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» RE: Being Radical for the Sake of Discussion
Posted by: BlueTigress
» "shit happens" -- No excuses!
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» Heck, let's return to stoning!
Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: "shit happens" -- No excuses!
Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
» RE: "shit happens" -- No excuses!
Posted by: flower
» RE: Being Radical for the Sake of Discussion
Posted by: fork
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CJC on Oct 24, 2006 7:07 AM
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don't see that FFL is necessarily directly supporting the
SD abortion ban, for example.
Yes, they're clearly out there in public with ads and so
forth and they certainly aren't naive about the public debate
about reproductive rights. But as long as they are appealing
to individuals with "never use contraception" and "never
have an abortion no matter what" messages they can call
themselves whatever they like. Is it news that we don't
all agree?
Are they really "non-sectarian" or are they a front group
for a certain segment of official Catholic theology? What's
the evidence? Will Chief Justice Roberts rule on the law
in a secular society or on religious beliefs? That's the
important public question.
It really is hard to object to others having an uncompromising
"pro-life" personal position and practicing forgiveness
and understanding in the case of children conceived
through violence.
The Amish recently provided a very public lesson in
deep forgiveness. The resident conservative columnist
for the Boston Globe, Jeff Jacoby, oddly criticized them
for not wanting vengeance. Since the murderer was
already dead it's not clear on whom vengeance would
be wreaked in any case.
For myself, advocating for women's rights to contraception
and other forms of birth control has been a big part of
my personal and professional life. I loathe the moralizing
that some would foist on others. But a commitment to
freedom means having to tolerate other ideas. But when
it comes to the law reproductive rights must be protected
everywhere.
Remember that one of GWB's first public acts after his
inauguration in 2001 was to reinstate the "Gag Rule" and
prohibit the US from funding any international family
planning organizations that weren't publicly committed
to an anti-abortion position. Now that was vile. He probably
is thereby responsible for thousands or more uncounted
deaths of "innocent" (one of his favorite words) women
and children around the world.
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Posted by: okcamp on Oct 24, 2006 7:16 AM
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» RE: to force a rape victim to give birth
Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Oct 24, 2006 8:53 AM
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» How do you figure ??
Posted by: AdamSelene40
» I didn't say anything about "feminazi witch magic".
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What do you expect...
Posted by: crashgrab
» Oh, we already have...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Oh, we already have...
Posted by: crashgrab
» Well, make no mistake... I'm not saying all or even a majority are... but I do see it...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» What I'm saying is keep your eyes and mind open... some are trying to negate choice...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What I'm saying is keep your eyes and mind open... some are trying to negate choice...
Posted by: crashgrab
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Posted by: Bracamontes on Oct 24, 2006 9:41 AM
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Posted by: terihu on Oct 24, 2006 9:46 AM
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Like Jews for Jesus, you gotta ask...why won't they just call themselves what they actually are? What are they trying to hide?
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Posted by: ogman on Oct 24, 2006 12:40 PM
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Posted by: ggmurray on Oct 24, 2006 2:16 PM
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People who aren't ready, should wait.
People who are sure they don't want children should request a simple sterilization procedure.
So the problem really is with the ones who are not ready, but get pregnant anyway. I think compassion is called for here, and a different solution for each situation - for each woman or couple, as the case may be.
I had an abortion many years ago, and for me it was in the end, a compassionate act. Not a decision arrived at easily, but one I have never regretted. From it I learned that each life is precious to God, and each one is cared for, here and hereafter.
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» RE: Who should and who shouldn't
Posted by: crashgrab
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Posted by: WyrdSister on Oct 25, 2006 8:11 AM
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Not having an abortion would then be your choice.
But once you start to force your beliefs on others, it is no longer reconsilable and no longer a personal belief.
I find it incredibly insulting when a group like this thinks that I am not responsible enough to make decisions regarding my own body.
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Posted by: stephanies419 on Oct 25, 2006 1:49 PM
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Posted by: imstephencrane on Oct 25, 2006 5:52 PM
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» RE: Don't they consider...
Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: Don't they consider...
Posted by: imstephencrane
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Posted by: Aussie Kim on Oct 26, 2006 5:52 PM
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Read this as an example of what they are going through.
Google "women murdered in guatemala" and check out how much fun that country is, too.
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» RE: Women in central America
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: FSD57110 on Oct 29, 2006 2:16 PM
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I was absolutely floored by this statistic - women are split on an abortion ban that would only allow abortions to save the life of the woman. There would be no exception for rape, incest or health. I guess I would be curious if this is true across the country or just an aberration to South Dakota.
However, I think this may be occurring because supporters of the ban, such as the Catholic Church of which I am a member, are using the arguments of FFL as the author notes. At our church 3 weeks ago, the sermon spoke of the woman's feelings and adopting the position that this is to save women (from themselves, presumably). The paper has had several letters from women who regret their decision as an argument to keep the ban.
Oh, by the way, the poll also asked the question if a rape/incest exception were included would you support the ban. In such a case the ban would win 56-32 with 58 percent of women (and 54 percent of men) supporting the ban. Only Democrats would not support such a ban - and that is by a 42-46 margin. So, I suspect that, should the repeal win on November 7, the SD legislature will pass another ban with the exception within 6 months. That measure will go to the Supreme Court.
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Posted by: marykderr on Oct 31, 2006 3:53 PM
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For example, if you sat down and actually conversed with prolife feminists, for example me: I have proudly identified as a prolife feminist for at least 20 years. I have fought for comprehensive sex education, full access to contraception, antiretroviral access, LGBT rights, the sexual/reproductive rights of disabled persons like myself, prevention and healing resources for domestic violence & rape, measures to increase male sexual & parental responsibility, cleanup of environmental toxins including those that impair reproductive health, family-friendly workplace policies, improved maternal child nutrition and health, etc, etc....in local, national, & global contexts...among other causes that save and improve human lives, born and unborn, in the abortion context & elsewhere....
On the online Political Compass test, my score puts me way out in left-libertarian field. I am a Buddhist practitioner with a profound interest in feminist spirituality, and with a staunch belief in the separation of "church" and state.
I am by no means the only person who just maybe possibly isn't telling a lie with the words "prolife feminist." There are a lot of us all over the world, both in the present and throughout the long history of feminism.
We are not liars out for the "triumph" of reactionary theocracy. We come from rather different places, to say the least. In fact we'd like to work more with prochoice feminists on common ground issues that will reduce abortion and expand women's nonviolent choices.
Would you kindly please, at least for a moment, even if just as some wacky thought experiment, set aside your dismissive stereotypes and entertain the possibility that some genuine feminists might actually oppose abortion/abortion as a general right?
If you don't find this message here plausible, I'd encourage you to visit this website for the new greatly expanded edition of the book ProLife Feminism Yesterday & Today: www.xlibris.com/prolifefeminism
I did thorough research, writing, & editing for this book & stand by the work.
The "excerpt" of the book presented there, which you can read at no charge, is the table of contents, which begins to show the long herstory & diversity of prolife feminists.
If you don't find the table of contents plausible, you (or anyone else who's a skeptic) are welcome to email me at marykderr@aol.com and ask to receive a copy of the book for free. (For anyone who is blind/visually impaired, there is a reader-friendly format I can send.)
Mary Krane Derr
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» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Prolife feminists do exist
Posted by: morticia
» Cont'd
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: marykderr
» RE: Cont'd
Posted by: morticia
» A few more thoughts....
Posted by: morticia
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