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DavidCorn.com / By David Corn
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This Is What Waterboarding Looks Like

As Congress debates torture and detention for suspected terrorists, you can see what waterboarding is all about.
September 29, 2006  |  
 
 
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As Congress has debated legislation that would set up military tribunals and govern the questioning of suspected terrorists (whom the Bush administration would like to be able to detain indefinitely), at issue has been what interrogation techniques can be employed and whether information obtained during torture can be used against those deemed unlawful enemy combatants. One interrogation practice central to this debate is waterboarding. It's usually described in the media in a matter-of-fact manner. The Washington Post simply referred to waterboarding a few days ago as an interrogation measure that "simulates drowning." But what does waterboarding look like?

Below are photographs taken by Jonah Blank last month at Tuol Sleng Prison in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. The prison is now a museum that documents Khymer Rouge atrocities. Blank, an anthropologist and former Senior Editor of US News & World Report, is author of the books Arrow of the Blue-Skinned God and Mullahs on the Mainframe.

He is a professorial lecturer at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and has taught at Harvard and Georgetown. He currently is a foreign policy adviser to the Democratic staff in the Senate, but the views expressed here are his own observations.

His photos show one of the actual waterboards used by the Khymer Rouge.

Here's the first:



Here's another view:



How were they used? Here's a painting by a former prisoner that shows the waterboard in action:



In an email to me, Blank explained the significance of the photos. He wrote:
The crux of the issue before Congress can be boiled down to a simple question: Is waterboarding torture? Anybody who considers this practice to be "torture lite" or merely a "tough technique" might want to take a trip to Phnom Penh. The Khymer Rouge were adept at torture, and there was nothing "lite" about their methods. Incidentally, the waterboard in these photo wasn't merely one among many torture devices highlighted at the prison museum. It was one of only two devices singled out for highlighting (the other was another form of water-torture -- a tank that could be filled with water or other liquids; I have photos of that too.) There was an outdoor device as well, one the Khymer Rouge didn't have to construct: chin-up bars. (The prison where the museum is located had been a school before the Khymer Rouge took over).
These bars were used for "stress positions"-- another practice employed under current US guidelines. At the Khymer Rouge prison, there is a tank of water next to the bars. It was used to revive prisoners for more torture when they passed out after being placed in stress positions.
The similarity between practices used by the Khymer Rouge and those currently being debated by Congress isn't a coincidence. As has been amply documented ("The New Yorker" had an excellent piece, and there have been others), many of the "enhanced techniques" came to the CIA and military interrogators via the SERE [Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape] schools, where US military personnel are trained to resist torture if they are captured by the enemy. The specific types of abuse they're taught to withstand are those that were used by our Cold War adversaries. Why is this relevant to the current debate? Because the torture techniques of North Korea, North Vietnam, the Soviet Union and its proxies--the states where US military personnel might have faced torture -- were NOT designed to elicit truthful information. These techniques were designed to elicit CONFESSIONS. That's what the Khymer Rouge et al were after with their waterboarding, not truthful information.
Bottom line: Not only do waterboarding and the other types of torture currently being debated put us in company with the most vile regimes of the past half-century; they're also designed specifically to generate a (usually false) confession, not to obtain genuinely actionable intel. This isn't a matter of sacrificing moral values to keep us safe; it's sacrificing moral values for no purpose whatsoever.
These photos are important because most of us have never seen an actual, real-life waterboard. The press typically describes it in the most anodyne ways: a device meant to "simulate drowning" or to "make the prisoner believe he might drown." But the Khymer Rouge were no jokesters, and they didn't tailor their abuse to the dictates of the Geneva Convention. They -- like so many brutal regimes -- made waterboarding one of their primary tools for a simple reason: it is one of the most viciously effective forms of torture ever devised.
The legislation backed by Bush and congressional Republicans would explicitly permit the use of evidence obtained through waterboarding and other forms of torture. Khalid Sheikh Muhammad and other top al Qaeda leaders have reportedly been subjected to this technique. They would certainly note -- or try to note -- that at any trial. But with this legislation, the White House is seeking to declare the use of waterboarding (at least in the past) as a legitimate practice of the US government.

The House of Representatives voted for Bush's bill on Thursday, 253 to 168 (with 34 Democrats siding with the president and only seven Republicans breaking with their party's leader). The Senate is expected to vote on the bill today. Its members should consider Blank's photos and arguments before they, too, go off the deep end.
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David Corn is the Washington editor of The Nation and author of "The Lies of George W. Bush: Mastering the Politics of Deception." He writes a blog at davidcorn.com.
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Can you believe this garbage?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: WhatNow? on Sep 29, 2006 5:42 PM   
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"put us in company with the most vile regimes of the past half-century"

That's my sentiment for years now. We have sunk so low as to endorse atrocities I once thought were only the modus operandi of our most despicable enemies.

I would like all the proponents of these atrocities have them tested on themselves and then see if they think they are torture or not. Can you believe this is even discussed in this country? It seems it would be flatly rejected without even given the dignity of any discussion.

We are truly a sick nation.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» The means fit the enemy! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» OCTOBER 5, BRING THIS TO A HALT! Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» You are one sick puppy! Posted by: HeroesAll
» No-one's mentioned the... Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Dear Mr. Conservasaurus, Posted by: Plexius
» RE: Dear Mr. Conservasaurus, Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Hey, Conservasaurus; Posted by: CanuckKid
» RE: Hey, Conservasaurus; Posted by: outlander55
» Hey putz......... Posted by: Diecash1
» RE: Dear Mr. Conservasaurus, Posted by: Plexius
» The trade off! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Conservatarus the Fearful and Gullible Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: mjabele
» mjabele - Sensible points Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: av8rdave
» Can logic prevail Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: lively56
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: thics are not provisional! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: bannelee
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: mythbuster
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: snafubar
» debate of the times? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Can you believe this garbage? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Can you believe this garbage? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Can you believe this garbage? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Can you believe this garbage? Posted by: 1984NOW!!!

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waterboarding
[Report this comment]
Posted by: gree1920 on Sep 29, 2006 6:50 PM   
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This from the champion of 'Family Values.' W has put the terror in the war on terror. This is really a way to offer himself amnesty from his heretofore hidden atrocities. The silence of our outrage is deafening! Congress should begin by trying the technique on W, Dick and Rummy.

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» RE: waterboarding Posted by: sheena2u

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Photos
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Sep 29, 2006 6:56 PM   
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as bad as they seem, they pale in comparison to those beheaded by our terrorists enemies - or people jumping out of widows of the twin towers!

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» RE: Photos Posted by: Gakl
» RE: Photos Posted by: Gakl
» RE: Photos Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Photos Posted by: lively56
» RE: Photos Posted by: bg41
» RE: Photos Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Photos Posted by: outlander55
» RE: Photos Posted by: bg41
» RE: Photos Posted by: zedaker
» RE: Photos Posted by: tiellis
» RE: Photos Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Beware the hydra Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Photos Posted by: Ubik
» RE: Photos Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Photos Posted by: tnrider
» two wrongs Posted by: danglerl

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Another Reason NOT to Joint the Military
[Report this comment]
Posted by: CatDad on Sep 29, 2006 10:13 PM   
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If I were in the Marines/Army I'd be petrified of being taken captive now that we have legalized torture...now other nations will retaliate and do the same or worse. This is yet another example of how Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld ultimately have contempt for the grunt/low-level soldiers who don't come from rich/powerful families who can keep them stateside.

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» A different view, but excellent points! Posted by: Conservasaurus

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US torture has long run rampant
[Report this comment]
Posted by: logansafi on Sep 29, 2006 10:22 PM   
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The scoundrels who direct torture for the US have been doing it years in a covert manner. In fact, torture is already rampant in US police stations and US prisons.

There is nothing new about 'rendition' to the many US allies who do torture both for themselves, and also on behalf of the Empire they are tied to. That would be the Evil US Empire. What is new, is simply that now they want to make what was covert, into what is overt. They want to revel in it, brag about, snicker about it, and to take sadistic pleasure in it. They want to wad others up into little dehumanized pieces of trash, which is how the well-to-do really feel about all the rest of us anyway.

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» RE: US torture has long run rampant Posted by: Iconoclast421

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We've lost the battle
[Report this comment]
Posted by: AdamG on Sep 29, 2006 10:47 PM   
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If you can't beat 'em, join them!

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» RE: We've lost the battle Posted by: Plexius

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medieval
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Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 30, 2006 1:02 AM   
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We now have proof that we have a medieval government. Impeach the Bushies and all the medieval members of House/Senate who voted for the medieval torture. We have a government of swine not men/women.

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» Impeach the bushies? HA Posted by: scott balogh
» It CAN be done. Posted by: sabresong

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America has hit rock bottom
[Report this comment]
Posted by: mo1912 on Sep 30, 2006 1:48 AM   
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Its disgusting and when i read comments like the if you cant beat them join them one I just think what the hell are they talking about !! Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9-11 .
The real terrorists are in your own millitary and goverment .
How do they recruit for the CIA ? they must have to reach rabid phycopath level in the personallity tests .

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» I HOPE you're right! Posted by: fool-on-the-hill

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waterboarding is part of US military training
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Posted by: jayne on Sep 30, 2006 5:13 AM   
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US soldiers are forced to undergo waterboarding and other techniques as part of advanced training, ostensibly to prepare them for what to expect in case of capture. the routine torture of our own servicemen would make an interesting article as well.
(in the past i wouldn't have thought much of it, but since a beloved family member has joined the army and risen through the ranks, i've been awaked to just how much mind control and torture the military uses on its own soldiers.)

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It'll be our new water-cooler sport
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Sep 30, 2006 5:22 AM   
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Who got picked up, who's accused, who's going to get what torture, bets laid on who can withstand it. They'll talk about torturers--who has the best record of confessions, who's a new torturer (maybe a little soft).

Will there be nicknames for effective torturers? "Uh-oh, he's going to go visit 'Mr. Bubbles' . . . "

Will we run a newstrip along the bottom of the screen: "latest terror suspect not breaking; CIA wants to threaten organ failure"?

Is a confession of hating America worth more than letting slip a bit of tactical information? What kind of torture produces what kind of result? Is one single tactic best, or a combination? How long is a "session"?

Should there be a Robert's Rules For Torture? Will there be a torture referee, a guy in a zebra shirt and stethoscope?

Who will set up the first We Torture, Inc.? Will their slogan be, "Whatever It Takes"?

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» Torture tv Posted by: Iconoclast421

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A simple test, and a comparison
[Report this comment]
Posted by: carld717 on Sep 30, 2006 8:45 AM   
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Is it really torture?

I'd ask each Congress person what they would call it if they or their kids were subjected to it.

'Nuff said.

As for 'other things' are worse, such as beheadings, yes, but why stop there? Why not go on to blowing up children and severing their bodies in a hundred pieces from 30,000 feet, and we won't even mention mass incinerations in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the blood of a million Vietnamese.

Those defending this crap are thinking tribally, and rather short-sightedly at that, rather than as rational humans

Carl Davidson, Chicago

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» You can take the test also Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Thankyou Graeme Posted by: munchkinpup

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What GOOD is torture?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: WitchyNy on Sep 30, 2006 9:32 AM   
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What I never understood about this was...if you torture someone enough...they will say ANYTHING. So what good is it?

It is not about getting the truth...it is about getting CONFESSIONS. To be used for political purposes.
Of course! Now I get it.

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» You are correct. Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» Torture's real purpose Posted by: Iconoclast421

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join on october 5
[Report this comment]
Posted by: karyse on Sep 30, 2006 10:07 AM   
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Mark your calendars for October 5. There's going to be a nationwide day of "no school, no work, no business as usual" using "peaceful but loud" tactics, organized by the world can't wait. website: www.worldcantwait.org. The list of cities is here: http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option
=com_content&task=view&id=2418&_event=14

Finally, someone is starting to act to show the rest of the world that we are not Bu$hco's sheeple.

Plan, at minimum, to take off work, school, or business activities. This may be our last chance before it's too late to save our beloved country.

Spread the word. It's happening in a city near you.

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» RE: join on october 5 Posted by: Plexius

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We got suckered again
[Report this comment]
Posted by: vkobaya on Sep 30, 2006 12:46 PM   
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Republicans managed to sucker us again. They sold out one of their own Foley to distract us long enough to pass this Torture and Immunity for Bush Bill. Doubt it? Consider how much of the e-mail and calls to Congress yesterday probably concerned Foley as compared to the far more important issue of the torture bill. We killed a single ant, while we were invaded and conquored by Ghengis Kahn, Attila the Hun, the Visgoths, Mongols and all the rest of the barbarians. Hell, not only invaded and conquored, also eaten.

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» RE: We got suckered again Posted by: shocked_aa

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The Great Decline
[Report this comment]
Posted by: FeeFee on Oct 1, 2006 4:48 PM   
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What is the point of having Geneva Conventions on war, torture and prisoners when the US simply ignores then, but heaven forbid if another country holding US soliders does the same. Would that be another reason for a pre-emptive (illegal) strike? You can't have your cake & eat it too. As a non-American, Bush et al has done so much to destroy the goodwill towards the US since 9/11. And that is such a shame, because the world was behind you 100%.
May I suggest that more of the meagre 35% of the population vote at the next election to stop the madness of the Bush regime and to save the lives of your young men and women dying or coming back limbless from Iraq.

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I've Lived Too Long
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Posted by: Greg001 on Oct 1, 2006 8:42 PM   
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I was a young sailor training to be an aircrewman in the Navy during the Viet Nam Era. I went to Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) School at Warner’s Spring east of San Diego in 1972. My fellow mates and I were "captured" by a bunch of petty officers dressed up like Godless commies in black pajamas who mocked us by calling us "comrade" and “individual” and placed us in a make-believe POW camp to experience the ruthless barbarism of our Soviet enemy. We were stripped down to our underwear including boots (it was a wet November in the mountains), placed in little wooden boxes, and periodically "interrogated” using a water board. All this to convince us that we were fighting a brutal enemy motivated by a distorted ideology; we Americans, on the other hand, were righteous God fearing defenders of liberty and all that was good in the world. At first, we all thought it was a joke until we had our first interrogation. After that, we were all in role taking it very seriously. When we were “liberated” 24 hours later signaled by an 80-decibel rendition of the Star Spangled Banner over the loud speakers, I felt so proud to be an American. It was very effective training for a 19-year old. Never in my imagination did I suspect honorable Americans would use such brutish techniques in real life, at least not legally. My, how things have changed; we’ve become them.

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» (so have I) Posted by: fool-on-the-hill

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What Good Is Torture?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Sparks on Oct 2, 2006 6:44 AM   
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Maybe it's not about catching terrorists since we know torture doesn't provide th intel to do that. Maybe it has more to do with terrorizing the Muslim population so that there will be no more resistance to US and Israeli domination.

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» RE: What Good Is Torture? Posted by: YogiBear

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Cause Tea and Crumpets work so much better.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: TooDamnCool on Oct 2, 2006 2:10 PM   
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No one gets hurt with water boarding, so why the big fuss? Seriously?

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Don't Throw out the Baby with the Bath
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Oct 2, 2006 2:17 PM   
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While there are a lot of despicable people around the world, including in the U.S. and including at the highest levels of the U.S. Government, I would argue that not all people in any of these areas are beyond hope.

Even among those we might disagree fundamentally, many have honest intentions and we should seek accommodation. Clearly there are anti-social individuals about whom it may be impossible to find anything positive. Still, I think that these people may be in the minority even in the current administration.

Go ahead, call me an optimist about this - naive even.

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Thank you...
[Report this comment]
Posted by: kenadrian on Oct 5, 2006 10:04 PM   
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... David. As a Canadian, I'm really pleased to see that you are taking this form of torture public by displaying it openly for what it is. I hope that our gov't will condemn the use of waterboarding.

It would be an interesting Public Relations "event" to set-up a waterboard in-front of every national political office and invite various members of Congress (and in Canada, Members of Parliament) to try it out. If they're not willing to give the waterboard a "test run", we should ask them why not and DEMAND that they condemn its use.

I fear, the following quote (changed to include women) is perhaps the most important idea of the 21st century:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

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poe
[Report this comment]
Posted by: janiepoe on Oct 6, 2006 12:53 PM   
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this torture practices are just fucking sick!!!!!!!sick!!!!

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Can you believe this garbage?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: WhatNow? on Sep 29, 2006 5:42 PM   
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"put us in company with the most vile regimes of the past half-century"

That's my sentiment for years now. We have sunk so low as to endorse atrocities I once thought were only the modus operandi of our most despicable enemies.

I would like all the proponents of these atrocities have them tested on themselves and then see if they think they are torture or not. Can you believe this is even discussed in this country? It seems it would be flatly rejected without even given the dignity of any discussion.

We are truly a sick nation.

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» The means fit the enemy! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» OCTOBER 5, BRING THIS TO A HALT! Posted by: 1984NOW!!!
» You are one sick puppy! Posted by: HeroesAll
» No-one's mentioned the... Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: Dear Mr. Conservasaurus, Posted by: Plexius
» RE: Dear Mr. Conservasaurus, Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Hey, Conservasaurus; Posted by: CanuckKid
» RE: Hey, Conservasaurus; Posted by: outlander55
» Hey putz......... Posted by: Diecash1
» RE: Dear Mr. Conservasaurus, Posted by: Plexius
» The trade off! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Conservatarus the Fearful and Gullible Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: mjabele
» mjabele - Sensible points Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: av8rdave
» Can logic prevail Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: lively56
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: thics are not provisional! Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: bannelee
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: mythbuster
» RE: The means fit the enemy! Posted by: snafubar
» debate of the times? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Can you believe this garbage? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Can you believe this garbage? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Can you believe this garbage? Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Can you believe this garbage? Posted by: 1984NOW!!!

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waterboarding
[Report this comment]
Posted by: gree1920 on Sep 29, 2006 6:50 PM   
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This from the champion of 'Family Values.' W has put the terror in the war on terror. This is really a way to offer himself amnesty from his heretofore hidden atrocities. The silence of our outrage is deafening! Congress should begin by trying the technique on W, Dick and Rummy.

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» RE: waterboarding Posted by: sheena2u

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Photos
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Conservasaurus on Sep 29, 2006 6:56 PM   
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as bad as they seem, they pale in comparison to those beheaded by our terrorists enemies - or people jumping out of widows of the twin towers!

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» RE: Photos Posted by: Gakl
» RE: Photos Posted by: Gakl
» RE: Photos Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Photos Posted by: lively56
» RE: Photos Posted by: bg41
» RE: Photos Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Photos Posted by: outlander55
» RE: Photos Posted by: bg41
» RE: Photos Posted by: zedaker
» RE: Photos Posted by: tiellis
» RE: Photos Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Beware the hydra Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Photos Posted by: Ubik
» RE: Photos Posted by: Conservasaurus
» RE: Photos Posted by: tnrider
» two wrongs Posted by: danglerl

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Another Reason NOT to Joint the Military
[Report this comment]
Posted by: CatDad on Sep 29, 2006 10:13 PM   
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If I were in the Marines/Army I'd be petrified of being taken captive now that we have legalized torture...now other nations will retaliate and do the same or worse. This is yet another example of how Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld ultimately have contempt for the grunt/low-level soldiers who don't come from rich/powerful families who can keep them stateside.

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» A different view, but excellent points! Posted by: Conservasaurus

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US torture has long run rampant
[Report this comment]
Posted by: logansafi on Sep 29, 2006 10:22 PM   
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The scoundrels who direct torture for the US have been doing it years in a covert manner. In fact, torture is already rampant in US police stations and US prisons.

There is nothing new about 'rendition' to the many US allies who do torture both for themselves, and also on behalf of the Empire they are tied to. That would be the Evil US Empire. What is new, is simply that now they want to make what was covert, into what is overt. They want to revel in it, brag about, snicker about it, and to take sadistic pleasure in it. They want to wad others up into little dehumanized pieces of trash, which is how the well-to-do really feel about all the rest of us anyway.

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» RE: US torture has long run rampant Posted by: Iconoclast421

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We've lost the battle
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Posted by: AdamG on Sep 29, 2006 10:47 PM   
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If you can't beat 'em, join them!

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» RE: We've lost the battle Posted by: Plexius

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medieval
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Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 30, 2006 1:02 AM   
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We now have proof that we have a medieval government. Impeach the Bushies and all the medieval members of House/Senate who voted for the medieval torture. We have a government of swine not men/women.

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» Impeach the bushies? HA Posted by: scott balogh
» It CAN be done. Posted by: sabresong

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America has hit rock bottom
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Posted by: mo1912 on Sep 30, 2006 1:48 AM   
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Its disgusting and when i read comments like the if you cant beat them join them one I just think what the hell are they talking about !! Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9-11 .
The real terrorists are in your own millitary and goverment .
How do they recruit for the CIA ? they must have to reach rabid phycopath level in the personallity tests .

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» I HOPE you're right! Posted by: fool-on-the-hill

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waterboarding is part of US military training
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Posted by: jayne on Sep 30, 2006 5:13 AM   
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US soldiers are forced to undergo waterboarding and other techniques as part of advanced training, ostensibly to prepare them for what to expect in case of capture. the routine torture of our own servicemen would make an interesting article as well.
(in the past i wouldn't have thought much of it, but since a beloved family member has joined the army and risen through the ranks, i've been awaked to just how much mind control and torture the military uses on its own soldiers.)

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It'll be our new water-cooler sport
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Sep 30, 2006 5:22 AM   
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Who got picked up, who's accused, who's going to get what torture, bets laid on who can withstand it. They'll talk about torturers--who has the best record of confessions, who's a new torturer (maybe a little soft).

Will there be nicknames for effective torturers? "Uh-oh, he's going to go visit 'Mr. Bubbles' . . . "

Will we run a newstrip along the bottom of the screen: "latest terror suspect not breaking; CIA wants to threaten organ failure"?

Is a confession of hating America worth more than letting slip a bit of tactical information? What kind of torture produces what kind of result? Is one single tactic best, or a combination? How long is a "session"?

Should there be a Robert's Rules For Torture? Will there be a torture referee, a guy in a zebra shirt and stethoscope?

Who will set up the first We Torture, Inc.? Will their slogan be, "Whatever It Takes"?

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» Torture tv Posted by: Iconoclast421

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A simple test, and a comparison
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Posted by: carld717 on Sep 30, 2006 8:45 AM   
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Is it really torture?

I'd ask each Congress person what they would call it if they or their kids were subjected to it.

'Nuff said.

As for 'other things' are worse, such as beheadings, yes, but why stop there? Why not go on to blowing up children and severing their bodies in a hundred pieces from 30,000 feet, and we won't even mention mass incinerations in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the blood of a million Vietnamese.

Those defending this crap are thinking tribally, and rather short-sightedly at that, rather than as rational humans

Carl Davidson, Chicago

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» You can take the test also Posted by: Conservasaurus
» Thankyou Graeme Posted by: munchkinpup

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What GOOD is torture?
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Sep 30, 2006 9:32 AM   
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What I never understood about this was...if you torture someone enough...they will say ANYTHING. So what good is it?

It is not about getting the truth...it is about getting CONFESSIONS. To be used for political purposes.
Of course! Now I get it.

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» You are correct. Posted by: fool-on-the-hill
» Torture's real purpose Posted by: Iconoclast421

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join on october 5
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Posted by: karyse on Sep 30, 2006 10:07 AM   
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Mark your calendars for October 5. There's going to be a nationwide day of "no school, no work, no business as usual" using "peaceful but loud" tactics, organized by the world can't wait. website: www.worldcantwait.org. The list of cities is here: http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option
=com_content&task=view&id=2418&_event=14

Finally, someone is starting to act to show the rest of the world that we are not Bu$hco's sheeple.

Plan, at minimum, to take off work, school, or business activities. This may be our last chance before it's too late to save our beloved country.

Spread the word. It's happening in a city near you.

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» RE: join on october 5 Posted by: Plexius

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We got suckered again
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Posted by: vkobaya on Sep 30, 2006 12:46 PM   
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Republicans managed to sucker us again. They sold out one of their own Foley to distract us long enough to pass this Torture and Immunity for Bush Bill. Doubt it? Consider how much of the e-mail and calls to Congress yesterday probably concerned Foley as compared to the far more important issue of the torture bill. We killed a single ant, while we were invaded and conquored by Ghengis Kahn, Attila the Hun, the Visgoths, Mongols and all the rest of the barbarians. Hell, not only invaded and conquored, also eaten.

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» RE: We got suckered again Posted by: shocked_aa

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The Great Decline
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Posted by: FeeFee on Oct 1, 2006 4:48 PM   
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What is the point of having Geneva Conventions on war, torture and prisoners when the US simply ignores then, but heaven forbid if another country holding US soliders does the same. Would that be another reason for a pre-emptive (illegal) strike? You can't have your cake & eat it too. As a non-American, Bush et al has done so much to destroy the goodwill towards the US since 9/11. And that is such a shame, because the world was behind you 100%.
May I suggest that more of the meagre 35% of the population vote at the next election to stop the madness of the Bush regime and to save the lives of your young men and women dying or coming back limbless from Iraq.

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I've Lived Too Long
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Posted by: Greg001 on Oct 1, 2006 8:42 PM   
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I was a young sailor training to be an aircrewman in the Navy during the Viet Nam Era. I went to Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) School at Warner’s Spring east of San Diego in 1972. My fellow mates and I were "captured" by a bunch of petty officers dressed up like Godless commies in black pajamas who mocked us by calling us "comrade" and “individual” and placed us in a make-believe POW camp to experience the ruthless barbarism of our Soviet enemy. We were stripped down to our underwear including boots (it was a wet November in the mountains), placed in little wooden boxes, and periodically "interrogated” using a water board. All this to convince us that we were fighting a brutal enemy motivated by a distorted ideology; we Americans, on the other hand, were righteous God fearing defenders of liberty and all that was good in the world. At first, we all thought it was a joke until we had our first interrogation. After that, we were all in role taking it very seriously. When we were “liberated” 24 hours later signaled by an 80-decibel rendition of the Star Spangled Banner over the loud speakers, I felt so proud to be an American. It was very effective training for a 19-year old. Never in my imagination did I suspect honorable Americans would use such brutish techniques in real life, at least not legally. My, how things have changed; we’ve become them.

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» (so have I) Posted by: fool-on-the-hill

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What Good Is Torture?
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Posted by: Sparks on Oct 2, 2006 6:44 AM   
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Maybe it's not about catching terrorists since we know torture doesn't provide th intel to do that. Maybe it has more to do with terrorizing the Muslim population so that there will be no more resistance to US and Israeli domination.

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» RE: What Good Is Torture? Posted by: YogiBear

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Cause Tea and Crumpets work so much better.
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Posted by: TooDamnCool on Oct 2, 2006 2:10 PM   
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No one gets hurt with water boarding, so why the big fuss? Seriously?

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Don't Throw out the Baby with the Bath
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Oct 2, 2006 2:17 PM   
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While there are a lot of despicable people around the world, including in the U.S. and including at the highest levels of the U.S. Government, I would argue that not all people in any of these areas are beyond hope.

Even among those we might disagree fundamentally, many have honest intentions and we should seek accommodation. Clearly there are anti-social individuals about whom it may be impossible to find anything positive. Still, I think that these people may be in the minority even in the current administration.

Go ahead, call me an optimist about this - naive even.

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Thank you...
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Posted by: kenadrian on Oct 5, 2006 10:04 PM   
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... David. As a Canadian, I'm really pleased to see that you are taking this form of torture public by displaying it openly for what it is. I hope that our gov't will condemn the use of waterboarding.

It would be an interesting Public Relations "event" to set-up a waterboard in-front of every national political office and invite various members of Congress (and in Canada, Members of Parliament) to try it out. If they're not willing to give the waterboard a "test run", we should ask them why not and DEMAND that they condemn its use.

I fear, the following quote (changed to include women) is perhaps the most important idea of the 21st century:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

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poe
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Posted by: janiepoe on Oct 6, 2006 12:53 PM   
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this torture practices are just fucking sick!!!!!!!sick!!!!

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