COMMENTS: 49
'Maverick' GOP Senators Cave to Torture President
September 23, 2006 |
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On the torture issue, the senators basically pretended to get a concession when the president said he would not reinterpret the Geneva Conventions ... when it comes to "grave breaches." But anything other than a grave breach the president has free reign to interpret and reinterpret any damn way he pleases.
First, let's go over what the "grave breaches" are: torture, cruel or inhuman treatment, performing biological experiments, murder, mutilation or maiming, rape, causing serious bodily injury, and sexual assault or abuse, and taking hostages.
Great, we won't be doing biological experiments on the detainees anymore. Since cruel and inhuman treatment's definition is not spelled out, this leaves us exactly where we were before. The president can order waterboarding, sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures, physical abuse, etc., etc. It's all cool as long as no one is getting raped or mutilated. Are we not merciful?
In the end, what did the brave maverick Republican senators get on the torture issue? Bupkus!
And what was their reaction? Bend over, smile and pretend to be rebels. I thought sexual abuse wasn't permitted anymore under the new guidelines. So, I guess it was consensual.
Oh yeah, they did get one more powerful concession. The president promises to put up a list of the different torture tactics he thinks are acceptable in an executive order at a date to be determined later. Except of course, Stephen Hadley has already said they will not do that because specific interrogation techniques will remain secret. Ooops. There goes that.
Speaking of Stephen Hadley, he also said the one real concession the senators got on the other issue - letting the defendants see evidence they are being charged with - might also be a head fake. He says they might reconsider that later. Of course!!!
This is a president you can't trust on anything. I mean that literally. On this very issue, the president has lied before and said he would agree to a compromise worked out on torture before - and then reneged on the deal by attaching a signing statement to the bill saying he would not follow the wording on torture. The man just can't get enough of torture. He is an addict. Even these high profile interventions can't stop him.
Maybe we need to bring in a heavy hitter to take care of this problem. The same man who helped Bush beat his other addictions - Jesus Christ. Though, there is some chance if Jesus himself came down and told Bush to stop torturing people, he still wouldn't do it. Cheney would convince him Jesus was soft on defense.
For kicks, the senators also threw in the concession that the prisoners will not be able to enforce any rights they might have because they will be held in a lawless state. Again, this is literal. They will have no right to habeas corpus. No recourse to the courts. They will only have the legendary compassion of George Bush to comfort them.
So, in the end, the president who started out by claiming to be a compassionate conservative will go down in history as The Torture President. Just when you thought Bush's legacy couldn't get any worse.
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fake
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 23, 2006 1:32 AM
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Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 23, 2006 1:32 AM
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Beware these fake rebelions for they will only bring us grief in the end. They are only play acting to keep more House/Senate seats so that the Bushies can continue to destroy global morality any which way they please without being thrown out of office for being the global killers/torturers that they are. Watch the coming election carefully so we can figure out how they screwed us again so that history can accurately record this period of mass election fraud, propaganda trickery and mass murder.
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» RE: fake
Posted by: JSquercia
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Liar-in-Chief...
Posted by: adp3d on Sep 23, 2006 4:08 AM
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Posted by: adp3d on Sep 23, 2006 4:08 AM
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...Liar!
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Marvin Wagner
Posted by: Marvin R on Sep 23, 2006 6:33 AM
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Posted by: Marvin R on Sep 23, 2006 6:33 AM
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Who speaks for the accused? The populace of the U.S. continues to be conditioned that detention equals guilt. Presumption of innocence is not mentioned.
Bush and the right are incubating more and more terrorists that will keep them in power by practicing terror and feeding fear.
The once protectors of our values and morals have gone mute. Their belief in God is betrayed. May God have mercy on them.
Bush and the right are incubating more and more terrorists that will keep them in power by practicing terror and feeding fear.
The once protectors of our values and morals have gone mute. Their belief in God is betrayed. May God have mercy on them.
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Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: CounterCorp on Sep 23, 2006 7:22 AM
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Posted by: CounterCorp on Sep 23, 2006 7:22 AM
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Republicans pretend to stand up for human rights, before basically approving of torture? They're almost as bad as ... Democrats, who have done and will do the same thing again.
And what will AlterNot say when this happens? The same thing it always does -- tut-tut about it, and then tell its readers how despicable Republicans are, and how we all have to vote for Democrats to change things. Except that voting for Democrats doesn't change things, as we've seen for the last 6 (or more accurately, 14) years.
Ah, but they're not in the majority, you say -- as if any party that does not have a majority is effectively not present in the legislature at all. They might as well not even show up for work if they don't have a majority, right? After all, there's absolutely nothing they can do as a minority in opposition -- right? And yet somehow the Republicans manage to function pretty well as a minority in the opposition, as do minority/opposition parties in legislatures all over the world. Only in the U.S. is the minority party effectively an absentee party.
If the Democrats would supposedly oppose torture if they controlled one (or both) houses of Congress, why can't they oppose it when they're in the minority? Why will they invariably knuckle under and agree to accept/ignore the worst kinds of human rights abuses, simply because Bush and the Republicans say it's an issue of national security and they don't want to look weak in an election year? Who are they representing when they do that? Answer: The Democratic voters who vote for them no matter what they do.
And, more to the point, how is it that AlterNot can be so outraged when Republicans pretend to oppose torture before accepting a bogus compromise that actually allows it, but somehow find a way to rationalize/excuse/justify the Democrats when they do the exact same thing? Answer: In exactly the same way that Republicans justify supporting their lack of principles, morality, and ethics.
Maybe now you can understand how these things happen -- precisely the way you let them.
AlterNot (and, by extension, Democratic voters) are to the Democrats exactly what the Democrats are to the Republicans -- blowhards who claim to stand on principle, but who cave whenever they're confronted with the need to actually take a principled stand and reject political expediency.
AlterNot and its readers want Democrats to be elected, so they always find a way to accept the Democrat's outrageous behavior again and again -- just as the Democrats alway manage to knuckle under to the Republicans, no matter how outrageous they are.
You get the government you deserve, and AlterNot and its readers deserve sniveling hypocrites, because they tolerate them just like sniveling hypocrites ...
And what will AlterNot say when this happens? The same thing it always does -- tut-tut about it, and then tell its readers how despicable Republicans are, and how we all have to vote for Democrats to change things. Except that voting for Democrats doesn't change things, as we've seen for the last 6 (or more accurately, 14) years.
Ah, but they're not in the majority, you say -- as if any party that does not have a majority is effectively not present in the legislature at all. They might as well not even show up for work if they don't have a majority, right? After all, there's absolutely nothing they can do as a minority in opposition -- right? And yet somehow the Republicans manage to function pretty well as a minority in the opposition, as do minority/opposition parties in legislatures all over the world. Only in the U.S. is the minority party effectively an absentee party.
If the Democrats would supposedly oppose torture if they controlled one (or both) houses of Congress, why can't they oppose it when they're in the minority? Why will they invariably knuckle under and agree to accept/ignore the worst kinds of human rights abuses, simply because Bush and the Republicans say it's an issue of national security and they don't want to look weak in an election year? Who are they representing when they do that? Answer: The Democratic voters who vote for them no matter what they do.
And, more to the point, how is it that AlterNot can be so outraged when Republicans pretend to oppose torture before accepting a bogus compromise that actually allows it, but somehow find a way to rationalize/excuse/justify the Democrats when they do the exact same thing? Answer: In exactly the same way that Republicans justify supporting their lack of principles, morality, and ethics.
Maybe now you can understand how these things happen -- precisely the way you let them.
AlterNot (and, by extension, Democratic voters) are to the Democrats exactly what the Democrats are to the Republicans -- blowhards who claim to stand on principle, but who cave whenever they're confronted with the need to actually take a principled stand and reject political expediency.
AlterNot and its readers want Democrats to be elected, so they always find a way to accept the Democrat's outrageous behavior again and again -- just as the Democrats alway manage to knuckle under to the Republicans, no matter how outrageous they are.
You get the government you deserve, and AlterNot and its readers deserve sniveling hypocrites, because they tolerate them just like sniveling hypocrites ...
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» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: Gregor
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: lordlegel
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An analogy
Posted by: aida1200 on Sep 23, 2006 7:01 AM
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Posted by: aida1200 on Sep 23, 2006 7:01 AM
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Reading this article, I was reminded of something I read long ago about a man who was repeatedly hauled into court for abusing his common-law wife. Each time, he received a minuscule sentence and an order to stay away from her, and "[He] said he would." At each court appearance, the woman had more accumulzated injuries, including the loss of sight in one eye, yet each time, when ordered to stay away flrom her, "[He] said he would." Like "Brutus is an honorable man," the words became more bitterly ironic every time they were used. Eventually, of course, he was in court for the last time, for having killed her. See any parallel here?
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MORE MCCAIN - SAME OLD STUFF
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2006 8:09 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2006 8:09 AM
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Well McCain certainly showed Bush didn't he. More noise and very little else. Geneva Convention Rules still in place, sounds good. They are of course subject to George Bush's interpretation. The great decider gets to go with his gut as usual. Sorry to say McCain's act is getting old and preditable. Perhaps he's getting in the way of others who can get something done. He's too worried about 'keeping his powder dry' to be effective any more. Thank, ANNA
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MORE MCCAIN - SAME OLD STUFF
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2006 8:09 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2006 8:09 AM
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Well McCain certainly showed Bush didn't he. More noise and very little else. Geneva Convention Rules still in place, sounds good. They are of course subject to George Bush's interpretation. The great decider gets to go with his gut as usual. Sorry to say McCain's act is getting old and preditable. Perhaps he's getting in the way of others who can get something done. He's too worried about 'keeping his powder dry' to be effective any more. Thank, ANNA
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Hypocrites or weaklings?
Posted by: CJC on Sep 23, 2006 9:12 AM
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Posted by: CJC on Sep 23, 2006 9:12 AM
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Senators Graham, McCain, and Warner were either playing a hypocritical game for public consumption, showing that Republicans can be independent of the President (for those Republicans who need that cover in November) or they were completely taken in by the President and caved in to him. And Rove wants to portray Democrats as weak?!?!
Either way it's an ugly picture. The likelihood is that Congress will docilely approve the President's bill, although this morning's papers suggest that only 40 of 535 members of Congress have even been "briefed" on the administration's plan . Much less will they all see the text of the bill, which we know in any case the President will abide by or not as he and his administration see fit.
Even Norman Ornstein of the American Enterprise Institute is quoted in the Boston Globe as complaining about the lack of checks and balances. "You're not having any checks and balances here. It sure doesn't look to me as if they stood up and did anything other than bare their teeth for some ceremonial barking, before giving the president a whole lot of leeway. I find it really troubling."
Me too.
Either way it's an ugly picture. The likelihood is that Congress will docilely approve the President's bill, although this morning's papers suggest that only 40 of 535 members of Congress have even been "briefed" on the administration's plan . Much less will they all see the text of the bill, which we know in any case the President will abide by or not as he and his administration see fit.
Even Norman Ornstein of the American Enterprise Institute is quoted in the Boston Globe as complaining about the lack of checks and balances. "You're not having any checks and balances here. It sure doesn't look to me as if they stood up and did anything other than bare their teeth for some ceremonial barking, before giving the president a whole lot of leeway. I find it really troubling."
Me too.
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» RE: Hypocrites or weaklings?
Posted by: xi_people
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McCain the "maverick" – a quivering tower of yellow Jell-O.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 23, 2006 9:38 AM
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 23, 2006 9:38 AM
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Senator McCain, who was held in a Vietnamese prison and thus should know better, has now been revealed for what he is: a dispicable little turncoat who has become a waterboy for the Bush doctrine. And this, after Bush slandered McCain's family in the 2000 primary!
Some war hero...some courage; McCain has become either a political coward or is heavily on the take – either way, he should be run out of office. He should also be thankful that he is not living 100 years ago – then, he would have been tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail for his betrayal of the people. Pity.
The other Repubs who flipped are bad enough; but for this man, one who knows torture intimately by his broken arms and other injuries at the hands of the Viet Cong, to sell out future american prisoners of war is simply unconsionable, and should cost him his political career.
Some war hero...some courage; McCain has become either a political coward or is heavily on the take – either way, he should be run out of office. He should also be thankful that he is not living 100 years ago – then, he would have been tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail for his betrayal of the people. Pity.
The other Repubs who flipped are bad enough; but for this man, one who knows torture intimately by his broken arms and other injuries at the hands of the Viet Cong, to sell out future american prisoners of war is simply unconsionable, and should cost him his political career.
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» RE: McCain the "maverick" – a quivering tower of yellow Jell-O.
Posted by: edith
» RE: They call him Mellow Yellow
Posted by: Gregor
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stop hypocrisy
Posted by: edith on Sep 23, 2006 10:21 AM
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Posted by: edith on Sep 23, 2006 10:21 AM
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We have too much war in the world(now there's a courageous statement, you can stop applauding me now.)
If you do go to war, do not pretend there is "humane' war or humane treatment. This chivalrous notion of war if it ever existed in fact which I doubt, ended in WWI. Civilians are fair game because the technology in modern war is so destructive and because the destruction of an economy is the fastest way to vanquish an enemy(it would have been better to destroy North Vietnam's irrigation dykes and drown and starve a million people than to have dragged out a "limited" war in which three million died.).
The Geneva Conventions are not observed by most nations. Examples would be Iraq and Iran in their little multi-million death war a few years agon, and China which has butchered and tortured Tibetans with regularity since 1950. And then there's the Sudan. And then's there the Sudan.
Stop wasting time about "Geneva". Let the Iraqis solve their own problems and cut a diplomatic deal and reestablish relations with Iran with which the American people have no legtimate grievance(including Iran's nuclear potential). If having nukes and being aggressive and irrational makes Iran our enemy then we should have bombed Israel back to the days of the patriachs years ago.
Avoid war. Once it starts its objective must be annhilation of the enemy by all means possible that minimuze casualties by the side that you are on. If you don't like blood(like me) stay out of the slaughterhouse.
application of "legality" to war is the ultimate hypocrisy and existentialist absurdity.
If you do go to war, do not pretend there is "humane' war or humane treatment. This chivalrous notion of war if it ever existed in fact which I doubt, ended in WWI. Civilians are fair game because the technology in modern war is so destructive and because the destruction of an economy is the fastest way to vanquish an enemy(it would have been better to destroy North Vietnam's irrigation dykes and drown and starve a million people than to have dragged out a "limited" war in which three million died.).
The Geneva Conventions are not observed by most nations. Examples would be Iraq and Iran in their little multi-million death war a few years agon, and China which has butchered and tortured Tibetans with regularity since 1950. And then there's the Sudan. And then's there the Sudan.
Stop wasting time about "Geneva". Let the Iraqis solve their own problems and cut a diplomatic deal and reestablish relations with Iran with which the American people have no legtimate grievance(including Iran's nuclear potential). If having nukes and being aggressive and irrational makes Iran our enemy then we should have bombed Israel back to the days of the patriachs years ago.
Avoid war. Once it starts its objective must be annhilation of the enemy by all means possible that minimuze casualties by the side that you are on. If you don't like blood(like me) stay out of the slaughterhouse.
application of "legality" to war is the ultimate hypocrisy and existentialist absurdity.
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» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: slydad
» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: Plexius
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Special Prosecutor
Posted by: Gaubladt on Sep 23, 2006 10:24 AM
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Posted by: Gaubladt on Sep 23, 2006 10:24 AM
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How about Ralph Nader
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We must understand: "Torture President" Isn't About Just War
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 23, 2006 10:44 AM
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Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 23, 2006 10:44 AM
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For Bush, the abroggation of the Geneva Conventions is not just applicable in war time. First of all, for Bush, we have been continuously and will be continuously at war with "terrorists" (aka, whoever is not with us is against us) pretty much indefinetly. What does this mean? It is a simple expanding of the logic of the current US system where "foreigners" are routinely tortured for information to a broader definition of who "needs to be tortured" for whatever purposes. Once labeled "an enemy of the state," the "state" then must act accordingly. Abroggate then the Geneva Conventions and you are on a very slippery slope indeed. Therefore, it does not matter so much that countries like China do not follow the conventions regularly, it is really about what the Conventions mean to America and ultimately how Americans want and will be treated by those in power.
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Meanwhile......Back Home...".the Torture President"...
Posted by: picket on Sep 23, 2006 11:01 AM
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Posted by: picket on Sep 23, 2006 11:01 AM
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The Air Force Secretary says non lethal weapons such as high power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd control situations before they are used on the battlefield.
From an article "Future Shock: Evidence of Plan to Torture US Demonstrators"...RJ Ekow He continues to say that these weapons cause "intolerable pain" and have been condemned by scientists as mass torture. Also it was mentioned that the AF Secretary mentioned works for the Defense Contractor that will produce the new crowd control weapon....General Dynamics
From an article "Future Shock: Evidence of Plan to Torture US Demonstrators"...RJ Ekow He continues to say that these weapons cause "intolerable pain" and have been condemned by scientists as mass torture. Also it was mentioned that the AF Secretary mentioned works for the Defense Contractor that will produce the new crowd control weapon....General Dynamics
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It's not torture!
Posted by: slydad on Sep 23, 2006 11:30 AM
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Posted by: slydad on Sep 23, 2006 11:30 AM
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Using waterboarding, sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures, and physical abuse (not maiming) as methods for extracting information is not torture. It doesn't even come close. You should ask John Kerry about connecting electrodes to the enemy's genitals and see if that's torture? I bet he could tell some real stories about real torture if you let him.
Sometimes we just need to get a little rough. I think that instilling enough fear in these terrorists to make them talk is certainly a lot better than letting our soldiers die or other terrorist attacks to occur because we're too squeamish to act when we need to.
You guys just don't want us to make progress over there. That's why you oppose this kind of treatment. If we make progress, then you feel as if George Bush won and you can't have that, can you?
You know what is torture? Seeing these kind of stupid headlines in the paper. "Bush Lied!" "Bush Tortures" "Bush creates terrorists" "Bush caused the towers to collapse" "Bush blew up the levies"
You guys need to get real and quit being such sore losers.
Sometimes we just need to get a little rough. I think that instilling enough fear in these terrorists to make them talk is certainly a lot better than letting our soldiers die or other terrorist attacks to occur because we're too squeamish to act when we need to.
You guys just don't want us to make progress over there. That's why you oppose this kind of treatment. If we make progress, then you feel as if George Bush won and you can't have that, can you?
You know what is torture? Seeing these kind of stupid headlines in the paper. "Bush Lied!" "Bush Tortures" "Bush creates terrorists" "Bush caused the towers to collapse" "Bush blew up the levies"
You guys need to get real and quit being such sore losers.
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» Yankee ingenuity
Posted by: edith
» bulls---t!!
Posted by: harpy
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: Jeanne
» SLYDAD has been systematically brainwashed
Posted by: caru
» RE: Slydad, tell me you're just funnin' us or...
Posted by: Plexius
» ...Yes, we don't want to make progress in the OPPOSITE direction.
Posted by: Lord Ichmael
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bush favors torture
Posted by: jcutler9 on Sep 23, 2006 12:24 PM
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Posted by: jcutler9 on Sep 23, 2006 12:24 PM
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Does Bush get to watch the torture? Oh, excuse me. Aggressive interrogation?
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» Peeping Prez
Posted by: edith
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Guess what? We're next!
Posted by: harpy on Sep 23, 2006 1:45 PM
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Posted by: harpy on Sep 23, 2006 1:45 PM
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Not torture? When it's applied to our own servicemen and women, and maybe your child or grandchild, see how you'd define it. The fakers just made a show of opposing the Nazi Bush so they could look independent, but don't believe it, it was all show and no go. By letting this sadist get away with this madness, how are we any better than Hitler, Saddam, or any other despot? Guess what's probably next? They'll be using it on us!
Bush's family back for generations made their fortunes on war profiteering. They backed Hitler, and through several front companies provided everything from gold to steel to weapons and gas to set his murder factories in motion. Bush's crime family will always keep us in war, and his family was a part of keeping detractors silent during Hitler's time, and they will stop at nothing to keep us silent now. Good sources are "Terror Storm" video, by Alex Jones, Webster Griffin Tarpley's biography of George H W Bush.
Bush apologists are very sick and naive to think what he's doing is not torture. We don't hear the half of it, and when your neighbors start disappearing, and then your friends start disappearing, don't look for help when they come after you.
Bush's family back for generations made their fortunes on war profiteering. They backed Hitler, and through several front companies provided everything from gold to steel to weapons and gas to set his murder factories in motion. Bush's crime family will always keep us in war, and his family was a part of keeping detractors silent during Hitler's time, and they will stop at nothing to keep us silent now. Good sources are "Terror Storm" video, by Alex Jones, Webster Griffin Tarpley's biography of George H W Bush.
Bush apologists are very sick and naive to think what he's doing is not torture. We don't hear the half of it, and when your neighbors start disappearing, and then your friends start disappearing, don't look for help when they come after you.
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sallyb
Posted by: sallyb36 on Sep 23, 2006 1:50 PM
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Posted by: sallyb36 on Sep 23, 2006 1:50 PM
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It was all a dog and pony show. Someone had to make the Republicans look like they were really taking care of the business of the people, so the three horsemen of the apocolypse came charging in like they meant business. But business with the Bush administration means doing their bidding and so the culminating effect is to acquiesce and let the Boy King have his way. Shakespeare couldn't have written the charade any better.
And as friend or foe of the Democrats pointed out, the Democrats are damned whatever they do. (That's my kinder interpretation of the Dems plight. That personage doesn't quite get it. But I forgive that ignorant attempt at mutilation.)
Sally B
And as friend or foe of the Democrats pointed out, the Democrats are damned whatever they do. (That's my kinder interpretation of the Dems plight. That personage doesn't quite get it. But I forgive that ignorant attempt at mutilation.)
Sally B
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What a great nation
Posted by: Falang on Sep 23, 2006 2:11 PM
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Posted by: Falang on Sep 23, 2006 2:11 PM
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Now you have your own place beside the great of the world right next to Hitler, Staline and Saddam.
We should isolate the US from the rest of the world like the world has done to South Africa, by doing that the world would be a better place to live.
I despise USA for what you are doing around the world, just whait because history teach us that everytime those regime start to give the same treatment to their own citizen, pay back is coming.
I use to be angry only at the governement of the US but now I start to become angry at you the citizen of this country who let that happend, proof of that is that Bush approval start to go up again in poll this week.
We should isolate the US from the rest of the world like the world has done to South Africa, by doing that the world would be a better place to live.
I despise USA for what you are doing around the world, just whait because history teach us that everytime those regime start to give the same treatment to their own citizen, pay back is coming.
I use to be angry only at the governement of the US but now I start to become angry at you the citizen of this country who let that happend, proof of that is that Bush approval start to go up again in poll this week.
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» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: Plexius
» We're not primarily bad; we're just primarily stupid and easily manipulated.
Posted by: Lord Ichmael
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Bunk!
Posted by: vkobaya on Sep 23, 2006 3:12 PM
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Posted by: vkobaya on Sep 23, 2006 3:12 PM
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Oh bunk! Where were the Democrats while these three courageous Republicans were at least trying to stop Bush. You know McCain has to be 100% opposed to torture given that he was subject to torture while he was a prisoner in Vietnam so don't bullshit me about his being a turncoat. In the meantime, the damn Democrats were under their beds, quaking in absolute terror. The way the loyal opposition behaves, I've always believed if anyone is going to stop the pig sitting in the Oval Office, it will have to be a gutsy Republican. My guess is that if you check carefully, you will find very severe cattle prod burns on McCain's wife and children perhaps even heart damage.
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» RE: Bunk!
Posted by: Astroboy
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All an act
Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 23, 2006 5:15 PM
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Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 23, 2006 5:15 PM
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I think it (the "rebellion") was all an act. It was a performance so that the three (McCain, Graham, Warner) on the record can say they spoke out against torture, and violation of human rights, and to support common article 3. So, after they spoke out against it, they can support it. The reverse "flip-flop" that they effectively accused Kerry of during the presidential campaign. They are now effectively on both sides of the fence, depending on which side suits the moment's need. The rest of the world, and any thinking American, can see through this mock opera. No one is fooled. We have fllushed away any credibility we might have had in being on the side of freedom, human rights, democracy, free speech, free thought, free anything. The USA has become a totalitarian state. Congress is in the process of handing the kingdom to Dubya's crowd. When the decision of what constitutes acceptable methods of interrogation and under what circumstances these methods can be applied is handed over to the executive branch's sole discretion, we no longer have the protection of checks and balances. Congress and the Supreme Court should just go home and save the taxpayers their salaries.
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Spineless Democrats Too - Why Should We Vote For Them????
Posted by: eyeman on Sep 23, 2006 10:13 PM
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Posted by: eyeman on Sep 23, 2006 10:13 PM
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Speak up Hillary, Kerry, Biden, Obama
The Devil can also be a silent devil you know.
Why The Democratic Part fails to produce any real opposition?
Why Should we voter for them?
The Devil can also be a silent devil you know.
Why The Democratic Part fails to produce any real opposition?
Why Should we voter for them?
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let us all evolve to a higher state
Posted by: caru on Sep 24, 2006 9:32 AM
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Posted by: caru on Sep 24, 2006 9:32 AM
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torture is not a political issue. you cannot even say it is a human issue. torture, assault, murder, the infliction of pain on another ... these are facts of existence. we must all confront the devil inside, we must all evolve to a higher state. we can not blame a political party or goverment for torture -- we can only blame existence itself. we, the mind of humantity, are embedded in this complete system of living. we have had 3.5 million years of exploring our species. we can choose to leave the path of harm. as we each make this choice we can influence each other and have a great effect for all future generations. AHISMA ...
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» RE: "...we have had 3.5 million years of exploring...
Posted by: Plexius
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How many of our troops will suffer torture for BUSH's crimes???
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill on Oct 2, 2006 2:31 PM
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Posted by: fool-on-the-hill on Oct 2, 2006 2:31 PM
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Now that the US has endorsed torture, by what criteria can we criticize the torture of our own troops (who are, of course, our children)?!
The neo-con imperialists think we don't need laws. When our troops are tortured, we'll just nuke the bastards who did it, right? That'll be a helluva rescue! (No need to get into the inability/refusal of this administration to provide minimal protection for our troops in the wars they've already started; that's a whole 'nother thread!)
It's now official: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
Ignor the inconvenient logical conclusions that follow from the above principle. Try not to let your mind produce the obvious observation that by this line of reasoning the only mistake any "leader" (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan) can make is TO LOSE!
The neo-con imperialists think we don't need laws. When our troops are tortured, we'll just nuke the bastards who did it, right? That'll be a helluva rescue! (No need to get into the inability/refusal of this administration to provide minimal protection for our troops in the wars they've already started; that's a whole 'nother thread!)
It's now official: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
Ignor the inconvenient logical conclusions that follow from the above principle. Try not to let your mind produce the obvious observation that by this line of reasoning the only mistake any "leader" (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan) can make is TO LOSE!
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Alternet Comments:
» RE: fake
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: Gregor
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: lordlegel
» RE: Hypocrites or weaklings?
Posted by: xi_people
» RE: McCain the "maverick" – a quivering tower of yellow Jell-O.
Posted by: edith
» RE: They call him Mellow Yellow
Posted by: Gregor
» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: slydad
» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: Plexius
» Yankee ingenuity
Posted by: edith
» bulls---t!!
Posted by: harpy
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: Jeanne
» SLYDAD has been systematically brainwashed
Posted by: caru
» RE: Slydad, tell me you're just funnin' us or...
Posted by: Plexius
» ...Yes, we don't want to make progress in the OPPOSITE direction.
Posted by: Lord Ichmael
» Peeping Prez
Posted by: edith
» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: Plexius
» We're not primarily bad; we're just primarily stupid and easily manipulated.
Posted by: Lord Ichmael
» RE: Bunk!
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: "...we have had 3.5 million years of exploring...
Posted by: Plexius
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fake
Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 23, 2006 1:32 AM
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Posted by: rsaxto on Sep 23, 2006 1:32 AM
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Beware these fake rebelions for they will only bring us grief in the end. They are only play acting to keep more House/Senate seats so that the Bushies can continue to destroy global morality any which way they please without being thrown out of office for being the global killers/torturers that they are. Watch the coming election carefully so we can figure out how they screwed us again so that history can accurately record this period of mass election fraud, propaganda trickery and mass murder.
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» RE: fake
Posted by: JSquercia
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Liar-in-Chief...
Posted by: adp3d on Sep 23, 2006 4:08 AM
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Posted by: adp3d on Sep 23, 2006 4:08 AM
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...Liar!
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Marvin Wagner
Posted by: Marvin R on Sep 23, 2006 6:33 AM
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Posted by: Marvin R on Sep 23, 2006 6:33 AM
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Who speaks for the accused? The populace of the U.S. continues to be conditioned that detention equals guilt. Presumption of innocence is not mentioned.
Bush and the right are incubating more and more terrorists that will keep them in power by practicing terror and feeding fear.
The once protectors of our values and morals have gone mute. Their belief in God is betrayed. May God have mercy on them.
Bush and the right are incubating more and more terrorists that will keep them in power by practicing terror and feeding fear.
The once protectors of our values and morals have gone mute. Their belief in God is betrayed. May God have mercy on them.
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Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: CounterCorp on Sep 23, 2006 7:22 AM
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Posted by: CounterCorp on Sep 23, 2006 7:22 AM
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Republicans pretend to stand up for human rights, before basically approving of torture? They're almost as bad as ... Democrats, who have done and will do the same thing again.
And what will AlterNot say when this happens? The same thing it always does -- tut-tut about it, and then tell its readers how despicable Republicans are, and how we all have to vote for Democrats to change things. Except that voting for Democrats doesn't change things, as we've seen for the last 6 (or more accurately, 14) years.
Ah, but they're not in the majority, you say -- as if any party that does not have a majority is effectively not present in the legislature at all. They might as well not even show up for work if they don't have a majority, right? After all, there's absolutely nothing they can do as a minority in opposition -- right? And yet somehow the Republicans manage to function pretty well as a minority in the opposition, as do minority/opposition parties in legislatures all over the world. Only in the U.S. is the minority party effectively an absentee party.
If the Democrats would supposedly oppose torture if they controlled one (or both) houses of Congress, why can't they oppose it when they're in the minority? Why will they invariably knuckle under and agree to accept/ignore the worst kinds of human rights abuses, simply because Bush and the Republicans say it's an issue of national security and they don't want to look weak in an election year? Who are they representing when they do that? Answer: The Democratic voters who vote for them no matter what they do.
And, more to the point, how is it that AlterNot can be so outraged when Republicans pretend to oppose torture before accepting a bogus compromise that actually allows it, but somehow find a way to rationalize/excuse/justify the Democrats when they do the exact same thing? Answer: In exactly the same way that Republicans justify supporting their lack of principles, morality, and ethics.
Maybe now you can understand how these things happen -- precisely the way you let them.
AlterNot (and, by extension, Democratic voters) are to the Democrats exactly what the Democrats are to the Republicans -- blowhards who claim to stand on principle, but who cave whenever they're confronted with the need to actually take a principled stand and reject political expediency.
AlterNot and its readers want Democrats to be elected, so they always find a way to accept the Democrat's outrageous behavior again and again -- just as the Democrats alway manage to knuckle under to the Republicans, no matter how outrageous they are.
You get the government you deserve, and AlterNot and its readers deserve sniveling hypocrites, because they tolerate them just like sniveling hypocrites ...
And what will AlterNot say when this happens? The same thing it always does -- tut-tut about it, and then tell its readers how despicable Republicans are, and how we all have to vote for Democrats to change things. Except that voting for Democrats doesn't change things, as we've seen for the last 6 (or more accurately, 14) years.
Ah, but they're not in the majority, you say -- as if any party that does not have a majority is effectively not present in the legislature at all. They might as well not even show up for work if they don't have a majority, right? After all, there's absolutely nothing they can do as a minority in opposition -- right? And yet somehow the Republicans manage to function pretty well as a minority in the opposition, as do minority/opposition parties in legislatures all over the world. Only in the U.S. is the minority party effectively an absentee party.
If the Democrats would supposedly oppose torture if they controlled one (or both) houses of Congress, why can't they oppose it when they're in the minority? Why will they invariably knuckle under and agree to accept/ignore the worst kinds of human rights abuses, simply because Bush and the Republicans say it's an issue of national security and they don't want to look weak in an election year? Who are they representing when they do that? Answer: The Democratic voters who vote for them no matter what they do.
And, more to the point, how is it that AlterNot can be so outraged when Republicans pretend to oppose torture before accepting a bogus compromise that actually allows it, but somehow find a way to rationalize/excuse/justify the Democrats when they do the exact same thing? Answer: In exactly the same way that Republicans justify supporting their lack of principles, morality, and ethics.
Maybe now you can understand how these things happen -- precisely the way you let them.
AlterNot (and, by extension, Democratic voters) are to the Democrats exactly what the Democrats are to the Republicans -- blowhards who claim to stand on principle, but who cave whenever they're confronted with the need to actually take a principled stand and reject political expediency.
AlterNot and its readers want Democrats to be elected, so they always find a way to accept the Democrat's outrageous behavior again and again -- just as the Democrats alway manage to knuckle under to the Republicans, no matter how outrageous they are.
You get the government you deserve, and AlterNot and its readers deserve sniveling hypocrites, because they tolerate them just like sniveling hypocrites ...
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» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: Gregor
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Where are AlterNot's beloved Democrats?
Posted by: lordlegel
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An analogy
Posted by: aida1200 on Sep 23, 2006 7:01 AM
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Posted by: aida1200 on Sep 23, 2006 7:01 AM
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Reading this article, I was reminded of something I read long ago about a man who was repeatedly hauled into court for abusing his common-law wife. Each time, he received a minuscule sentence and an order to stay away from her, and "[He] said he would." At each court appearance, the woman had more accumulzated injuries, including the loss of sight in one eye, yet each time, when ordered to stay away flrom her, "[He] said he would." Like "Brutus is an honorable man," the words became more bitterly ironic every time they were used. Eventually, of course, he was in court for the last time, for having killed her. See any parallel here?
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MORE MCCAIN - SAME OLD STUFF
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2006 8:09 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2006 8:09 AM
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Well McCain certainly showed Bush didn't he. More noise and very little else. Geneva Convention Rules still in place, sounds good. They are of course subject to George Bush's interpretation. The great decider gets to go with his gut as usual. Sorry to say McCain's act is getting old and preditable. Perhaps he's getting in the way of others who can get something done. He's too worried about 'keeping his powder dry' to be effective any more. Thank, ANNA
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MORE MCCAIN - SAME OLD STUFF
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2006 8:09 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 23, 2006 8:09 AM
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Well McCain certainly showed Bush didn't he. More noise and very little else. Geneva Convention Rules still in place, sounds good. They are of course subject to George Bush's interpretation. The great decider gets to go with his gut as usual. Sorry to say McCain's act is getting old and preditable. Perhaps he's getting in the way of others who can get something done. He's too worried about 'keeping his powder dry' to be effective any more. Thank, ANNA
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Hypocrites or weaklings?
Posted by: CJC on Sep 23, 2006 9:12 AM
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Posted by: CJC on Sep 23, 2006 9:12 AM
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Senators Graham, McCain, and Warner were either playing a hypocritical game for public consumption, showing that Republicans can be independent of the President (for those Republicans who need that cover in November) or they were completely taken in by the President and caved in to him. And Rove wants to portray Democrats as weak?!?!
Either way it's an ugly picture. The likelihood is that Congress will docilely approve the President's bill, although this morning's papers suggest that only 40 of 535 members of Congress have even been "briefed" on the administration's plan . Much less will they all see the text of the bill, which we know in any case the President will abide by or not as he and his administration see fit.
Even Norman Ornstein of the American Enterprise Institute is quoted in the Boston Globe as complaining about the lack of checks and balances. "You're not having any checks and balances here. It sure doesn't look to me as if they stood up and did anything other than bare their teeth for some ceremonial barking, before giving the president a whole lot of leeway. I find it really troubling."
Me too.
Either way it's an ugly picture. The likelihood is that Congress will docilely approve the President's bill, although this morning's papers suggest that only 40 of 535 members of Congress have even been "briefed" on the administration's plan . Much less will they all see the text of the bill, which we know in any case the President will abide by or not as he and his administration see fit.
Even Norman Ornstein of the American Enterprise Institute is quoted in the Boston Globe as complaining about the lack of checks and balances. "You're not having any checks and balances here. It sure doesn't look to me as if they stood up and did anything other than bare their teeth for some ceremonial barking, before giving the president a whole lot of leeway. I find it really troubling."
Me too.
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» RE: Hypocrites or weaklings?
Posted by: xi_people
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McCain the "maverick" – a quivering tower of yellow Jell-O.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 23, 2006 9:38 AM
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Sep 23, 2006 9:38 AM
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Senator McCain, who was held in a Vietnamese prison and thus should know better, has now been revealed for what he is: a dispicable little turncoat who has become a waterboy for the Bush doctrine. And this, after Bush slandered McCain's family in the 2000 primary!
Some war hero...some courage; McCain has become either a political coward or is heavily on the take – either way, he should be run out of office. He should also be thankful that he is not living 100 years ago – then, he would have been tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail for his betrayal of the people. Pity.
The other Repubs who flipped are bad enough; but for this man, one who knows torture intimately by his broken arms and other injuries at the hands of the Viet Cong, to sell out future american prisoners of war is simply unconsionable, and should cost him his political career.
Some war hero...some courage; McCain has become either a political coward or is heavily on the take – either way, he should be run out of office. He should also be thankful that he is not living 100 years ago – then, he would have been tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail for his betrayal of the people. Pity.
The other Repubs who flipped are bad enough; but for this man, one who knows torture intimately by his broken arms and other injuries at the hands of the Viet Cong, to sell out future american prisoners of war is simply unconsionable, and should cost him his political career.
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» RE: McCain the "maverick" – a quivering tower of yellow Jell-O.
Posted by: edith
» RE: They call him Mellow Yellow
Posted by: Gregor
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stop hypocrisy
Posted by: edith on Sep 23, 2006 10:21 AM
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Posted by: edith on Sep 23, 2006 10:21 AM
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We have too much war in the world(now there's a courageous statement, you can stop applauding me now.)
If you do go to war, do not pretend there is "humane' war or humane treatment. This chivalrous notion of war if it ever existed in fact which I doubt, ended in WWI. Civilians are fair game because the technology in modern war is so destructive and because the destruction of an economy is the fastest way to vanquish an enemy(it would have been better to destroy North Vietnam's irrigation dykes and drown and starve a million people than to have dragged out a "limited" war in which three million died.).
The Geneva Conventions are not observed by most nations. Examples would be Iraq and Iran in their little multi-million death war a few years agon, and China which has butchered and tortured Tibetans with regularity since 1950. And then there's the Sudan. And then's there the Sudan.
Stop wasting time about "Geneva". Let the Iraqis solve their own problems and cut a diplomatic deal and reestablish relations with Iran with which the American people have no legtimate grievance(including Iran's nuclear potential). If having nukes and being aggressive and irrational makes Iran our enemy then we should have bombed Israel back to the days of the patriachs years ago.
Avoid war. Once it starts its objective must be annhilation of the enemy by all means possible that minimuze casualties by the side that you are on. If you don't like blood(like me) stay out of the slaughterhouse.
application of "legality" to war is the ultimate hypocrisy and existentialist absurdity.
If you do go to war, do not pretend there is "humane' war or humane treatment. This chivalrous notion of war if it ever existed in fact which I doubt, ended in WWI. Civilians are fair game because the technology in modern war is so destructive and because the destruction of an economy is the fastest way to vanquish an enemy(it would have been better to destroy North Vietnam's irrigation dykes and drown and starve a million people than to have dragged out a "limited" war in which three million died.).
The Geneva Conventions are not observed by most nations. Examples would be Iraq and Iran in their little multi-million death war a few years agon, and China which has butchered and tortured Tibetans with regularity since 1950. And then there's the Sudan. And then's there the Sudan.
Stop wasting time about "Geneva". Let the Iraqis solve their own problems and cut a diplomatic deal and reestablish relations with Iran with which the American people have no legtimate grievance(including Iran's nuclear potential). If having nukes and being aggressive and irrational makes Iran our enemy then we should have bombed Israel back to the days of the patriachs years ago.
Avoid war. Once it starts its objective must be annhilation of the enemy by all means possible that minimuze casualties by the side that you are on. If you don't like blood(like me) stay out of the slaughterhouse.
application of "legality" to war is the ultimate hypocrisy and existentialist absurdity.
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» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: slydad
» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: stop hypocrisy
Posted by: Plexius
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Special Prosecutor
Posted by: Gaubladt on Sep 23, 2006 10:24 AM
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Posted by: Gaubladt on Sep 23, 2006 10:24 AM
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How about Ralph Nader
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We must understand: "Torture President" Isn't About Just War
Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 23, 2006 10:44 AM
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Posted by: sofla100 on Sep 23, 2006 10:44 AM
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For Bush, the abroggation of the Geneva Conventions is not just applicable in war time. First of all, for Bush, we have been continuously and will be continuously at war with "terrorists" (aka, whoever is not with us is against us) pretty much indefinetly. What does this mean? It is a simple expanding of the logic of the current US system where "foreigners" are routinely tortured for information to a broader definition of who "needs to be tortured" for whatever purposes. Once labeled "an enemy of the state," the "state" then must act accordingly. Abroggate then the Geneva Conventions and you are on a very slippery slope indeed. Therefore, it does not matter so much that countries like China do not follow the conventions regularly, it is really about what the Conventions mean to America and ultimately how Americans want and will be treated by those in power.
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Meanwhile......Back Home...".the Torture President"...
Posted by: picket on Sep 23, 2006 11:01 AM
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Posted by: picket on Sep 23, 2006 11:01 AM
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The Air Force Secretary says non lethal weapons such as high power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd control situations before they are used on the battlefield.
From an article "Future Shock: Evidence of Plan to Torture US Demonstrators"...RJ Ekow He continues to say that these weapons cause "intolerable pain" and have been condemned by scientists as mass torture. Also it was mentioned that the AF Secretary mentioned works for the Defense Contractor that will produce the new crowd control weapon....General Dynamics
From an article "Future Shock: Evidence of Plan to Torture US Demonstrators"...RJ Ekow He continues to say that these weapons cause "intolerable pain" and have been condemned by scientists as mass torture. Also it was mentioned that the AF Secretary mentioned works for the Defense Contractor that will produce the new crowd control weapon....General Dynamics
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It's not torture!
Posted by: slydad on Sep 23, 2006 11:30 AM
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Posted by: slydad on Sep 23, 2006 11:30 AM
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Using waterboarding, sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures, and physical abuse (not maiming) as methods for extracting information is not torture. It doesn't even come close. You should ask John Kerry about connecting electrodes to the enemy's genitals and see if that's torture? I bet he could tell some real stories about real torture if you let him.
Sometimes we just need to get a little rough. I think that instilling enough fear in these terrorists to make them talk is certainly a lot better than letting our soldiers die or other terrorist attacks to occur because we're too squeamish to act when we need to.
You guys just don't want us to make progress over there. That's why you oppose this kind of treatment. If we make progress, then you feel as if George Bush won and you can't have that, can you?
You know what is torture? Seeing these kind of stupid headlines in the paper. "Bush Lied!" "Bush Tortures" "Bush creates terrorists" "Bush caused the towers to collapse" "Bush blew up the levies"
You guys need to get real and quit being such sore losers.
Sometimes we just need to get a little rough. I think that instilling enough fear in these terrorists to make them talk is certainly a lot better than letting our soldiers die or other terrorist attacks to occur because we're too squeamish to act when we need to.
You guys just don't want us to make progress over there. That's why you oppose this kind of treatment. If we make progress, then you feel as if George Bush won and you can't have that, can you?
You know what is torture? Seeing these kind of stupid headlines in the paper. "Bush Lied!" "Bush Tortures" "Bush creates terrorists" "Bush caused the towers to collapse" "Bush blew up the levies"
You guys need to get real and quit being such sore losers.
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» Yankee ingenuity
Posted by: edith
» bulls---t!!
Posted by: harpy
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: It's not torture!
Posted by: Jeanne
» SLYDAD has been systematically brainwashed
Posted by: caru
» RE: Slydad, tell me you're just funnin' us or...
Posted by: Plexius
» ...Yes, we don't want to make progress in the OPPOSITE direction.
Posted by: Lord Ichmael
Comments are closed-
bush favors torture
Posted by: jcutler9 on Sep 23, 2006 12:24 PM
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Posted by: jcutler9 on Sep 23, 2006 12:24 PM
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Does Bush get to watch the torture? Oh, excuse me. Aggressive interrogation?
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» Peeping Prez
Posted by: edith
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Guess what? We're next!
Posted by: harpy on Sep 23, 2006 1:45 PM
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Posted by: harpy on Sep 23, 2006 1:45 PM
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Not torture? When it's applied to our own servicemen and women, and maybe your child or grandchild, see how you'd define it. The fakers just made a show of opposing the Nazi Bush so they could look independent, but don't believe it, it was all show and no go. By letting this sadist get away with this madness, how are we any better than Hitler, Saddam, or any other despot? Guess what's probably next? They'll be using it on us!
Bush's family back for generations made their fortunes on war profiteering. They backed Hitler, and through several front companies provided everything from gold to steel to weapons and gas to set his murder factories in motion. Bush's crime family will always keep us in war, and his family was a part of keeping detractors silent during Hitler's time, and they will stop at nothing to keep us silent now. Good sources are "Terror Storm" video, by Alex Jones, Webster Griffin Tarpley's biography of George H W Bush.
Bush apologists are very sick and naive to think what he's doing is not torture. We don't hear the half of it, and when your neighbors start disappearing, and then your friends start disappearing, don't look for help when they come after you.
Bush's family back for generations made their fortunes on war profiteering. They backed Hitler, and through several front companies provided everything from gold to steel to weapons and gas to set his murder factories in motion. Bush's crime family will always keep us in war, and his family was a part of keeping detractors silent during Hitler's time, and they will stop at nothing to keep us silent now. Good sources are "Terror Storm" video, by Alex Jones, Webster Griffin Tarpley's biography of George H W Bush.
Bush apologists are very sick and naive to think what he's doing is not torture. We don't hear the half of it, and when your neighbors start disappearing, and then your friends start disappearing, don't look for help when they come after you.
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sallyb
Posted by: sallyb36 on Sep 23, 2006 1:50 PM
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Posted by: sallyb36 on Sep 23, 2006 1:50 PM
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It was all a dog and pony show. Someone had to make the Republicans look like they were really taking care of the business of the people, so the three horsemen of the apocolypse came charging in like they meant business. But business with the Bush administration means doing their bidding and so the culminating effect is to acquiesce and let the Boy King have his way. Shakespeare couldn't have written the charade any better.
And as friend or foe of the Democrats pointed out, the Democrats are damned whatever they do. (That's my kinder interpretation of the Dems plight. That personage doesn't quite get it. But I forgive that ignorant attempt at mutilation.)
Sally B
And as friend or foe of the Democrats pointed out, the Democrats are damned whatever they do. (That's my kinder interpretation of the Dems plight. That personage doesn't quite get it. But I forgive that ignorant attempt at mutilation.)
Sally B
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What a great nation
Posted by: Falang on Sep 23, 2006 2:11 PM
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Posted by: Falang on Sep 23, 2006 2:11 PM
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Now you have your own place beside the great of the world right next to Hitler, Staline and Saddam.
We should isolate the US from the rest of the world like the world has done to South Africa, by doing that the world would be a better place to live.
I despise USA for what you are doing around the world, just whait because history teach us that everytime those regime start to give the same treatment to their own citizen, pay back is coming.
I use to be angry only at the governement of the US but now I start to become angry at you the citizen of this country who let that happend, proof of that is that Bush approval start to go up again in poll this week.
We should isolate the US from the rest of the world like the world has done to South Africa, by doing that the world would be a better place to live.
I despise USA for what you are doing around the world, just whait because history teach us that everytime those regime start to give the same treatment to their own citizen, pay back is coming.
I use to be angry only at the governement of the US but now I start to become angry at you the citizen of this country who let that happend, proof of that is that Bush approval start to go up again in poll this week.
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» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: What a great nation
Posted by: Plexius
» We're not primarily bad; we're just primarily stupid and easily manipulated.
Posted by: Lord Ichmael
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Bunk!
Posted by: vkobaya on Sep 23, 2006 3:12 PM
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Posted by: vkobaya on Sep 23, 2006 3:12 PM
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Oh bunk! Where were the Democrats while these three courageous Republicans were at least trying to stop Bush. You know McCain has to be 100% opposed to torture given that he was subject to torture while he was a prisoner in Vietnam so don't bullshit me about his being a turncoat. In the meantime, the damn Democrats were under their beds, quaking in absolute terror. The way the loyal opposition behaves, I've always believed if anyone is going to stop the pig sitting in the Oval Office, it will have to be a gutsy Republican. My guess is that if you check carefully, you will find very severe cattle prod burns on McCain's wife and children perhaps even heart damage.
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» RE: Bunk!
Posted by: Astroboy
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All an act
Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 23, 2006 5:15 PM
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Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 23, 2006 5:15 PM
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I think it (the "rebellion") was all an act. It was a performance so that the three (McCain, Graham, Warner) on the record can say they spoke out against torture, and violation of human rights, and to support common article 3. So, after they spoke out against it, they can support it. The reverse "flip-flop" that they effectively accused Kerry of during the presidential campaign. They are now effectively on both sides of the fence, depending on which side suits the moment's need. The rest of the world, and any thinking American, can see through this mock opera. No one is fooled. We have fllushed away any credibility we might have had in being on the side of freedom, human rights, democracy, free speech, free thought, free anything. The USA has become a totalitarian state. Congress is in the process of handing the kingdom to Dubya's crowd. When the decision of what constitutes acceptable methods of interrogation and under what circumstances these methods can be applied is handed over to the executive branch's sole discretion, we no longer have the protection of checks and balances. Congress and the Supreme Court should just go home and save the taxpayers their salaries.
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Spineless Democrats Too - Why Should We Vote For Them????
Posted by: eyeman on Sep 23, 2006 10:13 PM
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Posted by: eyeman on Sep 23, 2006 10:13 PM
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Speak up Hillary, Kerry, Biden, Obama
The Devil can also be a silent devil you know.
Why The Democratic Part fails to produce any real opposition?
Why Should we voter for them?
The Devil can also be a silent devil you know.
Why The Democratic Part fails to produce any real opposition?
Why Should we voter for them?
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let us all evolve to a higher state
Posted by: caru on Sep 24, 2006 9:32 AM
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Posted by: caru on Sep 24, 2006 9:32 AM
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torture is not a political issue. you cannot even say it is a human issue. torture, assault, murder, the infliction of pain on another ... these are facts of existence. we must all confront the devil inside, we must all evolve to a higher state. we can not blame a political party or goverment for torture -- we can only blame existence itself. we, the mind of humantity, are embedded in this complete system of living. we have had 3.5 million years of exploring our species. we can choose to leave the path of harm. as we each make this choice we can influence each other and have a great effect for all future generations. AHISMA ...
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» RE: "...we have had 3.5 million years of exploring...
Posted by: Plexius
Comments are closed-
How many of our troops will suffer torture for BUSH's crimes???
Posted by: fool-on-the-hill on Oct 2, 2006 2:31 PM
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Posted by: fool-on-the-hill on Oct 2, 2006 2:31 PM
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Now that the US has endorsed torture, by what criteria can we criticize the torture of our own troops (who are, of course, our children)?!
The neo-con imperialists think we don't need laws. When our troops are tortured, we'll just nuke the bastards who did it, right? That'll be a helluva rescue! (No need to get into the inability/refusal of this administration to provide minimal protection for our troops in the wars they've already started; that's a whole 'nother thread!)
It's now official: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
Ignor the inconvenient logical conclusions that follow from the above principle. Try not to let your mind produce the obvious observation that by this line of reasoning the only mistake any "leader" (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan) can make is TO LOSE!
The neo-con imperialists think we don't need laws. When our troops are tortured, we'll just nuke the bastards who did it, right? That'll be a helluva rescue! (No need to get into the inability/refusal of this administration to provide minimal protection for our troops in the wars they've already started; that's a whole 'nother thread!)
It's now official: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.
Ignor the inconvenient logical conclusions that follow from the above principle. Try not to let your mind produce the obvious observation that by this line of reasoning the only mistake any "leader" (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan) can make is TO LOSE!
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