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Rights and Liberties

Readers Write: Birth Control and 'Men's Rights'

By Laura Barcella, AlterNet. Posted August 24, 2006.


A pair of contradictory opinion pieces sparked heated debate among AlterNet readers about male roles in parenthood and contraception.
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In her July 26 AlterNet article "The Difference Between a Womb and a Wallet," writer Kai Ma agreed with the recent court dismissal of the "Roe v. Wade for men" case, in which Matthew Dubay fought for his self-perceived right to not financially support an unplanned pregnancy with a partner who had incorrectly told him that she was infertile.

But in an Aug. 1 counterpoint to Ma's piece, "Respect a Man's Choice, Too,", men's rights advocates Glenn Sacks and Jeffery M. Levin offered an opposing take on men's financial responsibility toward unwanted offspring.

Sacks and Levin attempted to debunk Ma's assertion that a "woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is not the equivalent of a man's choice to financially opt out of fatherhood." Unpredictably, AlterNet readers of both the Point and Counterpoint op-eds were on the fence, frequently along gender lines.

In response to "Respect a Man's Choice, Too," reader Madam Hatter began the discussion with a reminder that it's not just fathers who are required by law to pay child support:

What these father's rights types fail to recognize is that women can also be held responsible for child support -- just like they can. If they abandon or even lose their children to the kids' dad in a custody fight, women are ordered to pay child support too.

It's pretty obvious to me what this guy's problem is by his not so subtle wording, i.e., "when men are saddled with child support obligations" and "the burden of child support.

Another reader, Sec55, comments that s/he agrees with the judge's decision to throw out the Dubay case but urges abstinence as the easiest way to avoid complications of unwanted pregnancies:

Basically, I agree with the judge's decision in this case. If it had gone the other way, it could have provided an excuse for almost any man to opt out of his parental responsibilities just by claiming she messed up or misrepresented herself ... But if you're asserting that women shouldn't be held accountable in any way for unwanted pregnancies, it's a completely untenable position ... there's another solution to this whole problem, too. It's simple, safe, free and 100 percent effective -- don't engage in any type of sexual activity that can produce children. Better yet, wait until you're married, have a good job and can provide a stable home in which to raise them. (Conservatives aren't wrong about everything.)

And AlterMO presents his controversial opinion that women be required, by law, to inform their partners if they get pregnant -- and to obtain their partners' consent before deciding to have an abortion:

Why shouldn't a woman obtain permission from her partner for an abortion? There are laws in many (if not all) states requiring girls under a certain age to get permission from parents or the court. The same should be standard for adult women with regard to the potential fathers ... As someone who suspects a former partner aborted our child -- I can't determine for certain because I have no right to push the issue, and she simply refused to discuss the matter other than saying "nevermind, everything's OK" -- I was shocked I had no way to even be informed of the abortion, let alone block it ...

I'd actually support a points-like scheme where a woman getting an abortion who doesn't have the consent of the biological father receives a negative point on record. If she later gives birth to a child, and a dispute over custody/support arises, that negative point will be considered when awarding custody ...

But other readers weren't keen on that sort of arrangement. User Ezilla, for one, takes issue:

Men and women DO have equal "ability" to prevent pregnancy. Both sexes are equally capable of not participating, or of selecting a form of birth control. Just because women have MORE options, does not mean that men's ability is hampered ... I don't advocate no sex. But by having sex without taking responsibility for preventing an unwanted pregnancy, you are assuming responsibility for any consequences (i.e., babies) that may result from your actions.

Responding to another comment about why there are still no hormonal birth control options for men -- such as the Pill, the Ring or Depo Provera -- reader HH sarcastically asserts: "Drug companies are driven by PROFIT, not by a bunch of patriarchs who spend their time saying 'Gee, let's dream-up new ways to make life a living hell for women!'"

There ARE individuals who are pressing for what you describe; there are pills of that kind in the testing phase. Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

But a reader called Mizkaye doesn't see it that way, retorting:

Drug companies making the pills ... run by men. Insurance companies covering Viagra but not birth control pills ... run by men. The majority of lawmakers trying to outlaw abortion and other birth control options ... men. The major heads of the religious right funding these politicians ... men. Sex of the shooters that have killed abortion docs and/or bombed their clinics ... men. The heads of drugstores and the majority of pharmacists refusing to fill BC scripts and morning after scripts ... men. As for the male birth control pill in testing right now ... I have heard of it actually. I also have seen the polls that say most men don't want to take a pill, and I find it ironic that the length of time between development of a female pill and a male pill is almost 50 years. Why did it take so long? They developed a pill to help men get it up before they developed one to help them control what was coming out of it ... they put the cart before the horse don'cha think?

Digg!

Laura Barcella is an associate editor at AlterNet.

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Here we go again
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Aug 24, 2006 12:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll launch the first salvo:

"What these father's rights types fail to recognize is that women can also be held responsible for child support -- just like they can. If they abandon or even lose their children to the kids' dad in a custody fight, women are ordered to pay child support too."

While I'm in favor of a child's right to receive support from both parents, I had to chuckle sourly when reading this.

How often does the father win the custody fight, even when the mother has major problems? It's totally, completely lopsided in the courts. For every mother that pays child support you'll find at least ten fathers that do.

When someone makes a statement like this, I just lose respect for what they're saying and anything they say thereafter. They've effectively gone and waved a flag saying they're blindly partisan and JUST. WILL. NOT. bring any faculty of reason to the table.

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» RE: Here we go again...tricky, tricky Posted by: christininrome
» RE: Here we go again...tricky, tricky Posted by: christininrome
» RE: Most men who TRY do get custody Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Here we go again Posted by: Madam Hatter
» RE: Here we go again Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Here we go again Posted by: Madam Hatter
The great population strategy
Posted by: TT2 on Aug 24, 2006 12:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Birth controll is a ok, as long as it's for nonwhites(should be mandatory)! Whites must breed forcefully if necessary, so that the great age western imperialism pillaging around the planet still could continue! After all, without new babies how can we keep colonising other countries???

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» RE: The great population strategy Posted by: christininrome
» RE: The great population strategy Posted by: BlueStateBitch
» RE: The great population strategy Posted by: christininrome
» RE: The great population strategy Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: The great population strategy Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: The great population strategy Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: The great population strategy Posted by: christininrome
Another compendium by a gender biased Alternet Editor
Posted by: DaBear on Aug 24, 2006 2:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yawn. Men, take control for the good of humanity and the preservation of your integrity. Get the cut. Vasectomy is your salvation. If women are to be taken seriously about partnering with you, you'll need to level the playing field by removing the whole reproductive inequality in one fell swoop. There's too many humans on this earth anyway. The life you save may well be your own... and no woman, feminist or no, can legitimately blame you then for all the ills and gender inequality therein (they will anyway but at least it will be illegitimate).

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genetic factor
Posted by: rsaxto on Aug 24, 2006 2:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No one has mentioned the genetic factor of continuing one's genes into the future via sexual reproduction. It is a sort of genetic suicide not to have children. But in today's overpopulated and polluted world, to not have children is a form of martyrdom to benefit the planet and increase the probability of human survival.

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» RE: genetic factor Posted by: christininrome
» RE: genetic factor Posted by: ethanay
» RE: genetic factor Posted by: fervidus
Womb & Wallet aren't the same
Posted by: kit79 on Aug 24, 2006 3:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abortion talks about whether a child *will* be born, and child-support talks about a child already there. Once the child's here, it's got to be taken care of. Abortion should always remain a woman's sole choice because she alone bears the risks and consequences of pregnancy, but a born child has two parents and has needs which require money in this world. It's unfair, but it's nature that made this unfair, because only women can get pregnant. But being a major control freak, were I a man I'd be real uneasy with the idea that my financial future could rest on what another person chooses to do with their body. Condoms break, accidents happen, birth control fails. Fraud happens. Lies happen. Upon learning there's a baby inside them, some women might honestly change their minds and not be able to part with it. Who knows.

I still think there should be a male birth control pill, and that women should have to notify men if they become pregnant. Getting Plan B out there would also help in case of condom breakage. If there are opt-out procedures, they should coincide with the time-frame for a safe abortion. I think that would be fair.

Also, let's stop thinking of fathers as not suitable caretakers. Men invested in their own children aren't child molesters by default. Pass it on. Changing diapers doesn't make them perverts. Abortions might be prevented if a woman who doesn't want to have that child could choose to "adopt" to the father at birth.

In cases of child support, it should be monitored to be sure it goes to the child. I'm not certain of how it is calculated now but perhaps it should be based on a mother's expenses regarding the child rather than percentage of father's income - ie percentage of daycare costs and food/clothing.

While we're at it, this nation could make the world a bit easier for single parents and quit shoving marriage down everyone's throats. More affordable daycare and healthcare for all.

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» RE: Womb & Wallet aren't the same Posted by: Logic's Edge
» I agree... Posted by: K.D.
» RE: I agree... Posted by: Madam Hatter
» RE: Womb & Wallet aren't the same Posted by: Madam Hatter
this is about women's health
Posted by: okcamp on Aug 24, 2006 5:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that's why I oppose any legislation that would require a woman to notify a man that she is pregnant. what's next? women needing permission from their husbands to use birth control?

it is the woman's decision alone as to whether she wants to carry a pregnancy to term or not. no one has the authority or the right to force a woman to bear a child against her will.

in an ideal world every pregnancy would be welcomed, but we don't live in an ideal world. and we never will.

i believe the vast majority of abortions are the responsible and right decision. mine certainly was.

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» RE: this is about women's health Posted by: questionthemark1
» RE: this is about women's health Posted by: questionthemark1
» Common Courtesy Posted by: kit79
ground rules
Posted by: questionthemark1 on Aug 24, 2006 7:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think before having this debate we need to set ground rules that make sense and are fair. As I see it;

1) Since abortion is legal, whether or not it is immoral is irrelevant.

2) Nobody can force a person to have surgical procedures, no matter what. You can't force a woman to have an abortion just like you can't force a man to have a vasectomy. If you believe you can, tough shit. In a free society it doesn't work that way.

3) People should have equal rights. It doesn't matter if they have a penis or a vagina. Nobody should have special rights.

4) Ideally, the child is the priority. Just as we recognize this we recognize that in certain cases, this isn't possible.

5) Both sexes have reasons to be defensive and upset about this issue. Women are defensive because often they see attacks on abortion and their responsibilities as attacks on their rights. Men are defensive because they often believe that feminism/women's rights takes away from their own rights. It's sensitive because it's billed as US vs THEM, and it's really not.


Having said this, I think that most of the people here are missing what the orginal issue was about. A woman lied about birth control and then later wanted the man to pay child support. The father didn't want to. This is the crux of it.

I also think we can all agree that the father is an asshole for not wanting to pay child support. His first priority should be supporting his kid, whether he wanted him or not. The reason is that it's best for the kid. Period.

However.

I am sure the woman can get by without his support. And I believe she should. Legally, I don't think it makes sense for him to be held financially responsible. The woman was lying. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I believe that by lying she took the control out of their hands and put it in her hands.

It, at least to me, goes without saying that if she wasn't lying the man should legally be forced to pay child support. Even by forcing him to pay you are not taking away his equal rights, as he had a right to use a condom, ask his partner to use bc, etc. If he fails to do this and deposits a load in her bank, well, his rights end there.

And as for legally having to notify the father of pregnancy, I like the idea but a few problems spring to mind. What if the father is abusive? What if she doesn't know who the father is?

I think by not telling the father you waive all right to child support, unless you have a valid reason for not telling him (ie, he was abusive).


Jon, male
questionthemark.org

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» RE: ground rules Posted by: JDJD
» RE: ground rules Posted by: questionthemark1
» RE: ground rules Posted by: JDJD
» RE: ground rules Posted by: Pocahontas
» RE: ground rules Posted by: questionthemark1
» RE: ground rules -- eminent domain is gone Posted by: questionthemark1
» RE: ground rules Posted by: kit79
» RE: ground rules Posted by: cdtomei
» RE: ground rules Posted by: questionthemark1
» RE: ground rules Posted by: kit79
» RE: ground rules Posted by: questionthemark1
» RE: ground rules Posted by: questionthemark1
For the good of the child or the good of the culture
Posted by: OneStraw on Aug 24, 2006 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A few short decades of radical family law legislation in industrialized “democracies” has failed to convince me legislators on either side of the aisle have in mind the good of the child. I doubt if any of the legislators -- left, right or otherwise -- who cobbled together our current widely supported model of economic parenthood have much capacity to contemplate morality outside the narrow constructs of their post-industrialist culture.

Excuse me if my feelings run deep, but I tire of conversation that treats some personal choices about parenting in a rapidly changing world as if they are tantamount to personal violence against one's child. I tire of these conversations because I chose not to raise my children in a house divided against itself and believe they are better for it. If nothing else, I am satisfied of the greatly reduced carbon footprint that resulted from not shuttling these young people back and forth, against their will, to satisfy the cultural expectations and personal needs of their parents.

My core assertion is that parents have a right to surrender their children for adoption. But to appreciate that "right" requires some notion of what is a "right." Can we just set aside the self-righteous moralizing and presume that rights are things society has decided are pretty darn beneficial, and that it can find no rational basis to deny any person? That may be a poor definition, philosophically, but whatever definition we take, let's just forget about "mother's" rights and "father's" rights and just talk about human rights. At most, in this context, we might need to consider "parental rights".

So what's wrong with a person giving up parental rights? In many states, it's legal. It's not such a horrendous choice. For some reason, popular discourse has often decided it is okay to insult parents who for whatever reason allow others the opportunity to impart their values on that parent's biological offspring. Adoption is somehow a good thing for a teen to consider, but an evil idea for a male. In vitro fertilization is a miracle of science, but allowing a woman to have and rear my child on her own is immoral? I don’t buy it.

Why should not a mother or father have the opportunity to abrogate parental rights? There seems something flawed in the reasoning of legislatures that presume individuals are obligated to be financially involved with their progeny, when legislatures refuse to make similar financial commitments. If legislatures think funding childhood is a good thing, why don't they do it? The effect of parent taxes is to imply that children are bothersome, that society can't afford them, so biological parents should bear most of the burden. If these child-support laws were born of compassion, and of a recognition that society has abundant resources, why not just fund childhood?

The rationale is tempting. You brought it here, you pay for it, because the child needs it. Okay, but what are those needs? Why does the child of a millionaire need more than the child born to parents just a few generations out of slavery? Why is the parent who is heir to slaves criminalized for failing to ante up, though they may be emotionally involved with their child, while the millionaire can just cut wages at his business to increase profits, pay child services the parent tax yet never be involved with the child?

See, these "needs" legislatures are trying to make parents meet include things like video games, stylish clothes and general status in a badly flawed culture. Unable to repair its emotional breakdown and unwilling to confront its own abandonment of age-old agrarian culture, society has decided to use its main tool -- economics -- to hide from itself its own failure.

continued in next message...

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...for the good of the culture (continued)
Posted by: OneStraw on Aug 24, 2006 7:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...
One might say it's not about the money -- child support is intended to assure that a child has the emotional benefit of two parents. Sorry, but this tends to offend the merit of those widowed parents who manage to raise reasonably healthy children after the death of the other parent. Children might sometimes benefit from two parents, but there is no reason a caregiver can't do well alone. Probably the more important element is the role of community and extended family. A strong community can protect children against the risks of a two-parent family. Those risks include such emotional nightmares as constantly having one’s peace disturbed by domestic battles that marred childhood for many of us whose parents were immersed in the ideals of capitalism.

It seems strange to me legislation intended to mandate the nuclear family was cobbled together in the post-war heyday when the exclusive construct of man-woman-children-property was at risk of failing as men, women and children began enjoying the financial capacity to find other living arrangements in a newly rich society -- rich, for the record, as a result of excess production capacity in a post-war era.

I am asserting it is right and proper for either parent to disengage from a familial relationship with their offspring, and that society has more than adequate capacity, as a corporate public or among many private collectivities, to meet needs of children unmet by parents who can find no way to meet those needs. And I am suggesting that the notion of two parents financially tied to their biological offspring is a model cobbled together by a society that feared losing its traditional model of a two-parent nuclear family when wealth and mobility allowed people the freedom to escape the confines of that often-flawed situation.

Let me reveal some of the reasons I would choose to surrender my parental rights -- beyond a simple recognition that what is foisted on me as being "for the good of the child" is in fact an effort to legislate survival of a culture that has long ago suffered fatal failures. And, in the interests of disclosure, I recognize that this culture failed when it abandoned its own familial relationship with the rest of nature. With no enduring ties to habitat or to other life forms, our society in a fit of humanist ideology tried to patch together our failing culture by using the force of law to bind humans more closely with other humans.

So why surrender children for adoption? Consider a couple whose goals as a couple was culturally focused. The partnership was built on a mutual recognition of a preferred way of life -- one that was land-based, low-impact and sensitive to our species’ exaggerated role in our shared ecosystems. Then, shortly after the birth of a child born into a culturally focused partnership, one parent decides to embrace another religion, another set of economic ideals and another culture. The parent takes the child hundreds of miles away, begins feeding them from a grocery store instead of from a garden, and raises them in a house financed by a bank rather than by the labor of the occupants.

Is the morally correct choice to abandon efforts to disengage from a badly flawed culture only to spend the next two decades producing income, no matter the source, no matter the carbon byproduct that results from that effort? Is a parent morally obligated to equip a child to compete with children of mall culture?

Would the morally correct choice be for the abandoned parent, from whom the child was forcibly abducted, to intervene in the child's life, constantly rebutting the religious, cultural and economic training of the abducting parent and that parent's extended family? When we impose ourselves in families that have abducted our own children, I suspect the effort is often related to our own needs than to the needs of a child.

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Even The BEST & Most Careful Birth Contol Can Fail !!!!!!
Posted by: colleenwhalen on Aug 24, 2006 7:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Women can lose custody of kids & REQUIRED to pay mandatory child support to dad. Gender has no bearing on who gets custody of the child whoever has MORE MONEY for the lawyer gets custody. So men are not "victims" in child custody issues.

Tired of men alleging conniving women "trick" men into getting them pregnant. Nobody held a gun to mans head to force him to have sex. If he is not prepared to be a parent he should be celibate until marriage. If he wants to get married and doesn't want kids - get a vasectomy quit whining about women "tricking" him.

I have two female relatives happily married for 10 - 12 years w/3 kids didn't want more kids - late 30's early 40's when women are supposed to be hormonally "dried up" by then. 2 wives ALWAYS wore diaphram spermicidal jelly AND condom simultaneously & unwanted pregnancies.

These two women both middle-aged age range where female is supposed to be past child bearing age PLUS used 3 kinds of birth control simultaneously, yet STILL got pregnant - even the MOST responsible women sometimes get pregnant accidentially.

I got pregnant w/ unwanted pregnancy using 3kinds of birth control simultaneously condom, diaphram spermicidal jelly I was single Decision to have abortion was excruciating but made choice considering circumstances of my life & boyfriend it was the only practical solution - we'd only been dating 4 months when I got pregnant the first three months just strictly platonic friendship it was 1 month after we became sexually involved I got pregnant by accident we did not know each other long enough to have a baby together.

Neither of my 2 female relatives wanted more kids, both had 3 kids - because they were married - they went ahead and had the baby not abortion.

Vasectomies can be reversed sucessfully if a man REALLY does not want kids he should take responsibility for it.

Both of these two female cousins had their fourth child even though they really DID NOT WANT more kids - but they were married - but it proves that even HIGHLY responsible women can get pregnant by accident.....condoms break, split, fall off - diaphrams and spermicidal jelly sometimes fail.

Remember all that publicity when actress Elizabeth Hurley got pregnant by billionaire Richard Bing? She was on birth control pills and went to her doctor for prescription medicine for a bad case of the flu. Her doctor was incredibly negligent and did not tell her that the flu medication cancelled out her birth control pills - so she genuinely got pregnant by accident and PROVED it because her doctor made a public statement documenting his negligence.

Billionaire Richard Bing alleged Elizabeth Hurley was a "gold digger" - alleged she had been "sleeping around" and it could be another man's child. Then he publicly humiliated her by getting a COURT ORDER for DNA paternity test - despite the fact she voluntarily said she would gladly do the DNA paternity test of her own free will - he did the COURT ORDER simply to humiliate her with international ridicule publicty. The DNA paternity test proved he was the father - but Elizabeth Hurley was so disgusted with him - she would not accept one penny in child support and

Elizabeth Hurley was so fed up she refused to accept one penny in child support - despite a British court order giving her a HUGE judgement against Richard Bing for child support money. The bottom line is - if a man does not want kids - don't have sex - or get a vasectomy. Quit blaming women.

PLUS - we definitely have technology for MALE BIRTH CONTROL PILLS - if Viagra can be invented - so can male birth control pills - give me a break - we've had female birth control pills for 46 years!!!! It is men who own pharmaceutical companies - and men aren't interested in taking this responsibility.

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Why The Rehash?
Posted by: sirossisofliver on Aug 24, 2006 9:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems to me that when Alternet has a "slow news day", they recycle one of their many "firestorm" articles in the form of "Readers Write" compilations, in order to stir up rehash discussions....especially if it involves Men/Women or Religion/Abortion issues.....hmmmm.

Sorry, I'm not getting back into THIS sandbox.

Sir Ossis

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Life
Posted by: eyeman on Aug 24, 2006 9:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Life is a gift. Ending a pregnancy is not a right. A woman has no right to reject somebody else's life. On the othet hand, a man's financial suuport of child and mother is an obligation, not a right or a choice.
In this nation, many fathers are worthless because they do not support their children or children.s mothers after being sexually permissive. Many Mothers are wrong in using abortion as birth control after being sexually permissive.

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» RE: "gift" of life Posted by: ethanay
» RE: "gift" of life Posted by: eyeman
No Absolutes
Posted by: partially-impartial-party on Aug 24, 2006 10:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing this whole debate shows, and that the courts (at least in Canada) try to recognize is that there is no cookie cutter solution to these types of issues that will fit all situations. Nevertheless, it is these types of issues wherein people are ready to throw in absolutes and presumptions.

No matter what though, the sole focus should be on what is best for the children, a point which so often gets completely ignored in these debates. And which does, and should, take precedence over the preferences of either parent.

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Personal responsibility
Posted by: efjo on Aug 24, 2006 10:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Except in the very rare case of a woman raping a man, the idea of a man being "forced" into fatherhood is absurd on its face. If you absolutely don't want to be responsible for the upbringing of a child, there's always abstinence. It's a much better alternative than bringing a child into the world with a non-caring father.

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» RE: Personal responsibility Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: Personal responsibility Posted by: mizani
"patriarchy"
Posted by: ethanay on Aug 24, 2006 12:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It doesn't have to be a "bunch of guys [consciously] dreaming up new ways to make womens' lives a living hell" in order for exactly that to occur...right now it is still considered NORMAL for the onus to be on women w/o thinking too much about the issues...for child rearing (above and beyond breast feeding infancy) and for contraception. Most of the crap still happens precisely because of chronic lack of awareness.

The fact that we live in a patriarchal social context means that we men will typically, unthinkingly do patriarchal things unless we develop a critical consciousness. The fact of the matter is that it is biologically, hormonally and technically easier to develop reversible contraceptive for men with far less side-effects than it is to do so for women. This follows the long-standing recognition of "sperm is cheap" and "eggs are costly" discourse in biological/social study of sexuality. "Normal" patriarchal refusal and consistent shifting of that onus back onto women is so far the ONLY reason for the delay. Don't forget that the first contraceptive pill, developed "for" women BY men was an atrocity, ok'd for use even though it contained levels of hormones 100's of times higher than was necessary to do the job, resulting in a generation of women w/severe side-effects. Why? Carelessness--men wanting to fuck women w/o condoms ASAP and/or make a big profit off of it. For decades the normalized response from non-feminist men and women? "That's what you get for being a sex-craving WHORE."

I don't believe in "making reparations for the past" as it typically is used to rationalize cycles of violence. But we do, however, need to learn from our past mistakes and GROW UP and become true partners.

On that level men have a lot of catching up to do to show that we in general deserve "equal rights" even though we have taken greater priveleges at womens' expense consistently in the past. ReMember, "rights" implies "responsibility." We need to show that, wherever biologically possible and rational to do so, we can take on the burden, including a) contraception and b) post-infancy child rearing

"Entitlement" is something entirely different. As a man, if you want rights without responsibility you are asking for benefits without sacrifice, payoff without investment...meaning you are using the current social context to rob welfare from other people who are at LEAST as deserving as you are, and more often than not, MORE deserving given how much a patriarchy shifts its burdens onto women.

For the record, I would disagree with a ruling that decided a man had to pay child support under the following conditions:
a) the relationship was consensual
b) there was no rape
c) the woman had the technical ability to contact him and inform him she was pregnant, but didn't do so

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» RE: Yea, it's a patriarchy, remember? Posted by: MartianBachelor
» RE: "patriarchy" Posted by: H_H
Women who try and trap men:
Posted by: Glennk1949 on Aug 24, 2006 1:39 PM   
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Unfortunately, we all know many a case where a women uses or abuses her power to create life to KEEP a man around. Women have to be taught that using a child as a form of blackmail isn't moral or ethical. I had it done to me once and was able to convince her not to have the child but I later found out that this women had tried this same move on 3 other men.

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» RE: Women who try and trap men: Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Women who try and trap men: Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Women who try and trap men: Posted by: WyrdSister
» RE: Women who try and trap men: Posted by: WyrdSister
» You silly man! Posted by: H_H
I was lied to
Posted by: K.D. on Aug 24, 2006 2:30 PM   
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Well, my EX girlfriend tried to tell me she had a mis-carriage, that I believed was true, until the guy that gave her a ride to the clinic let me in on her little secret. The basis of child support is on the fact that both parents are responsible for every aspect of a child. This in mind, is it not biased that men don't have any say in whether or not their child will be born? How is it that my ex girlfriend can choose to have my child terminated, while, had she chose to keep it, I have no say in whether or not I want to be financially responsible? You mean to tell me that women have complete control over my future once she is impregnated? If I want a child and she doesn't, she gets what she wants...and if she wants the child and I don't, she gets what she wants. Where's the equality?

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Abortion's not always available
Posted by: soupcann314 on Aug 24, 2006 4:01 PM   
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Another facet to the story that is being overlooked for some reason is the simple fact that although abortion is legal in the US, it is not always available. According to the Guttmacher Institute, a whopping 86% of counties in the US did not have an abortion provider in 1996, and based on trends and current political climate, that percentage is sure to have increased in the past ten years. So, yes, everyone should use contraception (the pill, condoms, abstinence, whatever), but when an unplanned pregnancy occurs, women do NOT always have the means to procure an abortion, providers being so rare and costs being prohibitive (since God knows Medicaid was never intended to help poor people receive the medical care they NEED).

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Equal rights
Posted by: mizani on Aug 24, 2006 6:15 PM   
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I hear a lot of people saying that men should have equal rights when it comes to reproduction. I believe that. But i don't think that equal rights/responsibilities should begin once someone is already pregnant. That's kind of too late.
Men have many more choices in preventing pregnancy than they are willing to take responsibility for...and men can do a lot more than just use a condom (though this is an EXCELLENT option). Here are a few examples:
1. Learn when your woman is fertile/infertile during the month. During those times, take the initiative to either abstain or use a condom.
2. Participate with your woman on what types of birth control she uses. If a woman has to remember to take her pill every day, why can't a man remember with her, remind her or be with her when she takes it? If she uses the patch, you can see with your own to eyes that she's using her birth control.
3. Withdraw each and every time you have sex.
4. Get a vasectomy. If you change your mind, they can be reversed without too many problems.
5. Protect yourself regardless of what she says she's doing. As a woman, i know better than to not use protection if i sleep with a man who i barely know who insists he's had a vasectomy. It's amazing how many men out there won't trust a woman with their wallet but would put their entire future in that same woman's hands by believing that she is on bc when there's the chance that she isn't.
(Many of these methods are not foolproof in and of themselves. In combination, they can greatly reduce the chances of a pregnancy and men can get some of the control that they feel they've lost or never had.)
I could go on with the list. I know that many are reading this list and thinking those things are so far-fetched. That's exactly my point. When some men claim victimhood because a woman got pregnant without their consent, what they are doing is assuming that their PRIVILEGE of being able to have sex without considering birth control is actually their right. In other words, with some more effort you could totally exercise your rights to not be a father. I dated a man for an entire year and there was never an instance with me that he didn't use a condom -- and not once did i have to remind him. HE was asserting his right to not be a father before he was ready. And guess what? He isn't one. These methods may seem like an inconvenience to many men. But its an inconvenience that billions of women have dealt with as part of their daily lives for decades. If Dubay had used any of the options mentioned, he would not have had to go to the courts to take back control of his future. His rights never left him. He simply handed them to this woman on a platter.

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Ms. Barcella is hardly an objective referee on this matter
Posted by: H_H on Aug 24, 2006 6:18 PM   
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But I was delighted that she chose one of my statements to be worthy of being rehashed. I think it's worth pointing-out that many of the statements I was referring to involved the unbelievably obtuse reasoning of collective punishment: that because someone shares the same genitals as those who tend to be CEOs of pharmaceutical companies therefore nullifies that person's lack of birth control. (i.e.: Oh yeah?? Who runs the companies? MEN, that's who! HAH!) By the same logic, women have no right to complain about the shortcomings of the Avon or Jenny Craig product lines. Grow the hell up!

What is so facinating is the number of supposedly intelligent people who automatically resort to this kind of foolish thinking. Also amazing is the preponderance of those who assume that "equal rights" is always the same thing as "more rights for women".

Debate here can not reach any meaningful truths unless people are willing to acknowledge that being on the side of fairness is not always exactly the same as being on the side of women. For instance, fairness in criminal justice would require women to be punished just as harshly as a man would be for committing the same crime. Fairness in military service would obligate 17 year old women to sign-up for Selective Service, just as 17 y.o. males are. Fairness in family life would require a presumption of joint child-custody after divorce instead of automatically presuming custody to the mom, and so on.

When you extend rights to exclusively one segment of the population and not extend them to another segment, you're creating privileges, not equality. No matter how much everyone screams "patriarchy!!!", it's still a privilege. When one sex comes-out ahead in the short run, both sexes will ultimately come-out behind in the long run.

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Vasectomy is Right for Me
Posted by: MT512 on Aug 24, 2006 6:47 PM   
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I'm 34, never wanted kids, and I'm kinda shocked that only now am I coming around to getting a vasectomy. (Never was against it, really, but I guess if you're in a solid relationship with a woman on the pill or with tied tubes, you don't think about it much.) It's a quick procedure, quick recovery, pretty cheap, often covered by insurance, and does not affect anything in terms of, um, output.

Of course, condoms are still required outside of monogamous relationships. And it's a great idea to get (both people) tested in a new monogamous relationship before you stop using condoms. With this brilliant method, I will be child- and disease-free my whole life. You can do it, too! Call now!!

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this is tiresome
Posted by: owleyes on Aug 24, 2006 7:11 PM   
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The Alternet editors have succeeded in stirring the pot. But the embarrassing fact remains: women have wombs; men do not.

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» RE: this is tiresome Posted by: digitalspy
» RE: this is tiresome Posted by: slowerpez
» RE: this is tiresome Posted by: digitalspy
» RE: this is tiresome Posted by: Logic's Edge
» don't misunderstand Posted by: owleyes
» RE: don't misunderstand Posted by: Logic's Edge
Hilarious!
Posted by: phindrup on Aug 24, 2006 7:45 PM   
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Imagine, males being able to demand that a woman carry 'their' child to term!
What utter crap!
Besides, any half way intelligent lass would, with a straight face, tell you that it was not yours!
I can see bitter and twisted males demanding that 'their' child be born, and never contribute one cent to the childs upbringing.
Women may not be angles, but when it comes to decisions about having or not having a baby, I will back their judgement over a males every time!

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» RE: Hilarious! Posted by: digitalspy
» RE: Hilarious! Posted by: owleyes
Since reckless drivers are protected from financial loss, why not reckless lovers?
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 24, 2006 8:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated</