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Rights and Liberties

COUNTERPOINT: Respect a Man's Choice, Too

By Glenn Sacks and Jeffery M. Leving, AlterNet. Posted August 1, 2006.


It's wrong to force pregnancy on an unwilling mother; but it's equally wrong to do so to an unwilling father.
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Editor's Note: In her July 26 AlterNet article, "The Difference Between a Womb and a Wallet," writer Kai Ma agreed with the recent court dismissal of the "Roe v. Wade for men" case, in which Matthew Dubay fought for his self-perceived right not to financially support an unplanned pregnancy. Below, men's rights advocates Glenn Sacks and Jeffery M. Levin offer a very different view of men's financial responsibility toward unwanted offspring.

Kai Ma's recent AlterNet article "The Difference Between a Womb and a Wallet" applauds a U.S. District Court judge's quick, contemptuous dismissal of Matthew Dubay's "Roe v. Wade for Men" lawsuit. Dubay sought to wipe out the child support payments he is obligated to make to an ex-girlfriend who, he says, used a fallacious claim of infertility to deceive him into getting her pregnant.

In opposing "choice for men," Ma asserts that a "woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy is not the equivalent of a man's choice to financially opt out of fatherhood." She cites the pain and discomfort of pregnancy, and the way motherhood "may limit our mobility or careers."

These problems are very real; however, so are the problems created when men are saddled with child support obligations. According to Men's Health magazine, 100,000 men each year are jailed for alleged nonpayment of child support. Federal Office of Child Support Enforcement data reveal that 70 percent of those behind on payments earn poverty level wages. The "Most Wanted Deadbeat Dad" lists put out by most states are used both for police actions and to hunt and shame "deadbeats" through newspaper ads and publicity campaigns. These lists are largely comprised of uneducated African-American and Latino men with occupation descriptions like "laborer," "maintenance man" and "roofer."

Ma dismisses the burden of child support as being "a few hundred dollars a month." However, in California, a noncustodial father of two earning a modest $3,800 a month in net income pays $1,300 a month in child support. The money -- almost $300,000 over 18 years -- is tax-free to the custodial mother. One can reasonably debate whether this sum is appropriate or excessive. One cannot reasonably dismiss it as being insignificant. Ma portrays children as a mother's albatross, forgetting that parenting is also the greatest joy a person can experience in life. Yes, in single mother homes, the mother bears the burden of most of the childrearing, but the mothers also experience the lion's share of the joys and benefits of having children. Noncustodial fathers are not so fortunate -- they're usually permitted only a few days a month to spend with their kids. Once mom finds a new man, they're often pushed out entirely in favor of the child's "new dad."

Ma condemns men who "lie, deceive, break their promises, or pull a 180 … who agree to marry but don't," and laments that "millions of women" have been "trapped into single motherhood for life with, often, next to no recourse." Yet according to a randomized study of 46,000 divorce cases published in the American Law and Economics Review, two-thirds of all divorces involving couples with children are initiated by mothers, not fathers, and in only 6 percent of cases did the women claim to be divorcing cruel or abusive husbands.

The out-of-wedlock birth rate in the United States hovers around 33 percent -- given the wide variety of contraceptive and reproductive choices women enjoy, this can hardly be blamed primarily on men. Yes, in some of these cases the mother and father shared a relationship that the mother (and the father) may have expected would become a marriage. Yet these relationships fail for many reasons besides male perfidy. These include: youth, economic pressure and the lack of living wage jobs (how many couples fight over money?), and the mothers' post-partum depression and mood-swings. It's doubtful that many men really wake up in the morning and say to themselves, "My child loves me and needs me, my girlfriend loves me and needs me -- I'm outta here."

Ma says men "shouldn't be able to choose to abandon that child in the lurch." Yet 1.5 million American women legally walk away from motherhood every year through adoption, abortion or abandonment. In over 40 states mothers can completely opt out of motherhood by returning unwanted babies to the hospital shortly after birth. If men like Dubay are deadbeats and deserters, what are these women?

Whenever a child is born outside of the context of a loving, two-parent family, there are no good solutions. Ma overstates her case, but she is correct that "Choice for Men" is a flawed solution. However, the current regime, which provides women with a variety of choices and men with none, is also flawed.

Matthew Dubay's conduct is not particularly admirable, and he's certainly not a candidate for father of the year; however, he does have a point. Over the past four decades, women's advocates have successfully made the case that it is wrong to force a pregnancy on an unwilling mother. Despite the backlash against Dubay, hopefully his lawsuit will result in a greater societal awareness that it is also wrong to force a pregnancy on an unwilling father.

Digg!

Glenn Sacks is a men's and fathers' issues columnist, commentator, and radio talk show host. Jeffery M. Leving is a family law attorney and author of "Fathers' Rights: Hard-hitting and Fair Advice for Every Father Involved in a Custody Dispute."

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Where to start?
Posted by: Madam Hatter on Aug 1, 2006 1:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a COUNTERPOINT? LOL

What these father's rights types fail to recognize is that women can also be held responsible for child support - just like they can. If they abandon or even lose their children to the kids' dad in a custody fight, women are ordered to pay child support too.

It's pretty obvious to me what this guy's problem is by his not so subtle wording, i.e. "when men are saddled with child support obligations," and "the burden of child support."

And seriously, are we really expected to believe that one of the many reasons relationships fail (besides "male perfidy") is "the mothers' post-partum depression and mood-swings"??

And he says, "It's doubtful that many men really wake up in the morning and say to themselves "my child loves me and needs me, my girlfriend loves me and needs me--I'm outta here.""

Yet, this is exactly what Dubay did.

How about this argument: "given the wide variety of contraceptive and reproductive choices women enjoy, this can hardly be blamed primarily on men."

So, because drug companies have focused only on the women's side of the contraceptive issue, and we have the wide variety of which cocktail of hormones in what form we get to douse our bodies with for 30 some years, the blame for failures can be primarily placed on us?

Give me a break. As the judge said "[Dubay] had difficulty accepting the financial consequences of his conduct."

» RE: Where to start? Posted by: sec55
» RE: Where to start? Posted by: Peggy
» RE: Where to start? Posted by: Madam Hatter
» RE: Where to start? Posted by: juergen
» RE: Where to start? Posted by: hotlipsin61
» Point was... Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Point was... Posted by: Madam Hatter
» RE: Point was... Posted by: sec55
» Why shouldn't they? Posted by: AlterMO
» RE: Why shouldn't they? Posted by: Eithne
» Uh, no Posted by: heatherj
» RE: Where to start? Posted by: Tagahanga
» RE: Where to start? Posted by: dedicatedfather
» RE: Where to start? Posted by: AnJie
» RE: Where to start? Posted by: dedicatedfather
I'm not buying it.
Posted by: Annarisse on Aug 1, 2006 3:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Men have available to them a very good form of birth control - a condom. If you don't want a baby with the woman you're sleeping with, use one. Period. Take your birth control into your own hands.

» RE: I'm not buying it. Posted by: cordas
» RE: I'm not buying it. Posted by: mazel
» RE: I'm not buying it. Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: I'm not buying it. Posted by: sec55
» RE: I'm not buying it. Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: I'm not buying it. Posted by: broke_Dad
Thank you of sorts.
Posted by: cordas on Aug 1, 2006 3:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its nice to see an rebuttle put up against Kia Ma's article, however this is as miss-guided at Ma's article but just taking it from the Fathers point of view rather than the Mothers.

I hate to say this, but "THINK OF THE CHILDREN". What is needed here (in the UK) and in the States it seems is a system which takes the heat out of the situation rather than letting a load of biggoted women and men fight the next round in the battle of the sexes.

Relationships end for an infinite amounts of reasons and with an infinte different amount of outcomes, however in my expereince (personal, family and friends) the best resolutions are found when both parents can sit down and talk rationaly about what they each want for themselves, for their children and from each other, oh and NO this isn't an easy option or wishfull thinking.... it took my mother and mother in law with a sledgehammer and a red hot poker to make me and my ex sit down and talk to each other (with relationship counseling) after our split and sort out what we wanted (and carry on talking with threats of violence, from the respective grans), no things aren't perfect and i doubt they ever will be (too much spilt milk), but we have found if we talk we can sort out our problems most of the time or find a not disagreeable compromise.

It was the lawyers and other court appointed *"&^£*& who made our split as bad as it was, and it wasn't helped by bipartisan advice given to each of us left right and center by biggoted do-gooders with their own axes to grind (often gender related).

Both men and women have rights and responsibilites and as soon as one side (usualy the female) starts making itself in the victim and deserving of having their demands met, the other side will often walk away (not always the male) making the situation go from worse to worser.

» RE: Thank you of sorts. Posted by: Cathryntd
» RE: Thank you of sorts. Posted by: sec55
» RE: Thank you of sorts. Posted by: kkinder
» RE: Thank you of sorts. Posted by: JoeBiden
We need a new name here.
Posted by: Lizmv on Aug 1, 2006 3:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Birth control........Maybe we need to call it something else, like conception control....conception prevention. Something to help these poor men understand that THEY also have a responsibility to prevent conception.

As this issue is discussed more and more, I am beginning to understand why so many think that women use abortion as birth control. Far too many men think "If she gets pregnant, she can have an abortion". Yeah, maybe she will. But then again, maybe she won't! There would be far less abortions if men took more responsibility for birth control.

So, why are so many men not using conception prevention if they do not want to be fathers? "She tricked me!" is nothing but a childish excuse. Adults take responsibility for their actions and the consequences for their mistakes.

I have 5 brothers and our father repeatedly told them that THEY were responsible if they got a girl pregnant. That being a man means TAKING RESPONSIBILITY. (This from a man who chose to raise 11 children that were not his own, children who's own fathers did not take responsibility)

Grow up, guys! Be REAL men!

» RE: We need a new name here. Posted by: Samantha Vimes
» RE: We need a new name here. Posted by: heatherj
» You need to grow up too. Posted by: Steve_in_NH
» RE: You need to grow up too. Posted by: Madam Hatter
» RE: You need to grow up too. Posted by: FauxPorteno
» RE: We need a new name here. Posted by: Timmmay!
post partum depression
Posted by: Samantha Vimes on Aug 1, 2006 4:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is in your view, a good reason for a man to drop his responsibility to both mother AND child?

Wow.

» RE: post partum depression Posted by: daniel1982
» no one said "good" Posted by: Disputo
I knew this would happen...
Posted by: willie.horton on Aug 1, 2006 4:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everybody reflexively jumps to criticize your article, regardless of its considerable merit.
Women have control over their own bodies, so they can choose on their own whether to have sex, whether to use birth control (or to demand their partners use a condom), and whether to continue or terminate a pregnancy. No man -- even a husband -- has a legal right to interfere in these decisions, yet he is legally and financially bound to the results.
And, it is politically incorrect even to complain about this state of affairs.
In an era when we should be united against the growing tyranny of the right, we instead perpetuate the tyranny of women's rights without responsibility.

» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: Tagahanga
» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: Tagahanga
» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: popsicle67
» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: popsicle67
» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: popsicle67
» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: Tagahanga
» RE: I knew this would happen... Posted by: Madam Hatter
Too re-state a point.
Posted by: cordas on Aug 1, 2006 5:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Condoms ain't perfect they have been known to SPLIT. Yes wearing a condom greatly reduces the chances of accidental pregnancy and the transmisson of most STDs, but if the only protection a man has is a condom (not perfect), the snip (rather drastic in many cases, like the hysterctomy but less invasive) or abstinence (?) then......

Women DO have far more control avaible to them, and I for one can't wait for more options to become available to men..... Oh and don't forget that "I would never trust a man who says he is on the pill brigade/idiots" GOOD! I wouldn't be taking the pill (or recomeneding my sons) to take the pill to stop the woman from becoming pregnant I would do it too stop me from becoming a father (and that is as subtle as you want it to be). Note. Any woman stupid enough to be that brigade needs help as well as contraception advice.

The sooner both sexes have reliable contraception the better, then BOTH party's will be truely equal in this regard, and have equal responsibilities.

So lets drop the irrelevant arguements and the insane and UNWINABLE "battle of the sexes" (the war that makes the war on terrorism and the war on drugs look sensible) as its a distraction from the real issue.

What we need is a sensible policy that allows both men and women to debate what is in the best intrests of themselves, and their children and make working compromises that all parties can live with. Like in the war on terror fighting just makes the problems worse, and like the war on drugs certain self intrested groups gain power and money and everyone else pays the unacceptable price. (I REALLY want to put this whole paragragh in bold but know that would be rude).

» RE: Too re-state a point. Posted by: canadalauren
» RE: Too re-state a point. Posted by: mizkaye
» RE: Too re-state a point. Posted by: kyamamot
Women vs. Men - both responsible
Posted by: kwalls on Aug 1, 2006 5:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately there are women who believe that having a child will solve all their personal or relationship problems, and there are others who believe they are incomplete without a man, and there are others who are just cannot conceive of any future that does not include the husband/children scenario, and others who just simply can't survive financially without a partner... and they use pregnancy as a way to try to trap a man into their lives. I have known women like this and I have also seen good men entrapped by their sense of duty, only to be excluded from their children's lives by the manipulations of emotionally damaged women or women who won't take responsibility for improving their lives. I also know men who will do or say just about anything to get laid. It is sad that "adults" behave this way. However, we also live in a culture that pushes having the myth of the ideal nuclear family, that pushes and sells sexuality, that refuses to be open and honest about sexual responsibility, that does not make birth control easily available at low or no cost, that puts most of the responsibility for birth control on women (along with the results), extols male virility, and that values children so little that a high percentage of these single parent homes headed by women exist in poverty. We can argue responsibility and who did what to whom, but in the long run the children are the ones who go hungry and wear rags and fail in school and become the burdens and continue the cycle. Men can also choose to say "no" and use contraception, more research can be done on male contraception, men can educate men on these issues, men can teach their sons or other young men how to take care of themselves. It doesn't matter if men do or don't want children - if they engage in sexual relationships, they take that risk and they should take responsibility for it. If they don't want responsibility, then they need to fight for free birth control, better sex education, abortion rights, better social support for single mothers and their children, and they need to be smarter about their own behaviors.

Biology's a bitch...
Posted by: pcushniesr on Aug 1, 2006 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...ain't it? Just not fair at all. Illness and age have removed this issue from my personal Book of Things to Worry About and I can't say I miss it.

Re the article specifically, I don't think the authors make a very good case. Guys are just going to have to think before they act and that's all there is to it. I can't come up with a better idea to deal with an inherently unfair situation. I know that passion and thinking are like oil and water, but the thinking CAN be done before the passion boils over, like when you're just getting into your car to meet your date. As for guys who think they've been duped into fatherhood, I think they should have their day in court if they want it, but these things will have to be taken on a case-by-case basis. And lemme tell ya, guys: you're gonna have a tough row to hoe, cuz biology's a bitch.

» RE: Biology's a bitch... Posted by: FauxPorteno
Pro-choice for men too.
Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam on Aug 1, 2006 6:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What scares me about the argument against men's rights to not be a father is that it uses the exact same rhetoric that anti-choicers employ to diminish women's rights to not be a mother.

"He could have worn a condom."
"He had sex, now he has to deal with the consequences."
"Parenting is the greatest joy we can possibly experience."
"Men have to take responsibility for their actions." etc.

Ideally we would have a society where a single mother could support herself and her children. In fact, I think we do need such a society. But in order to be fair, we have to give men the right to recover from a mistake.

I think that in the case of an unplanned pregnancy the man should have a right to opt out to a certain point. If he signs papers completely ending his rights as a parent by, say, 3 months post partum (at the latest) he should be able to do so. What concerns me more are those fathers who raise the children for awhile, then have a fight with the mother and run out. These are the deadbeat dads who should have their wages garnered in order to support the children they chose to have.

» RE: Pro-choice for men too. Posted by: truegreencore
wah, wah, wah!!!
Posted by: zing on Aug 1, 2006 7:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
well, crybaby, if you don't want to incur the possibility of the responsibilities of fatherhood, get sterilized or don't have sex. my heart bleeds at the thought of men who might have to pay child support. try raising a child.

» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: astockton
» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: astockton
» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: canadalauren
» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: zoomorph
» Damned if you do... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: Tagahanga
» RE: wah, wah, wah!!! Posted by: Madam Hatter
Male Birth Control - the time has come
Posted by: Violetflame11 on Aug 1, 2006 7:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about a pill for men, or, dare I say the word, Condom?

Money money money
Posted by: lamar on Aug 1, 2006 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it disheartening that the issue for men is the "burden of child support" payments. What about having a child, and what about being connected to the mother forever? Money is just that green stuff that's always in short supply. A child, that's something a little more real. I don't want a child, and the money is a side issue.

» RE: Money money money Posted by: Steve_in_NH
» RE: Money money money Posted by: zedaker
» RE: Money money money Posted by: ks
» RE: Money money money Posted by: American Reflections
» RE: Money money money Posted by: sec55
» RE: Money money money Posted by: Steve_in_NH
» RE: Money money money Posted by: VannaLaRoche
How strange they missed the most important issue...
Posted by: canadalauren on Aug 1, 2006 8:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Neither article addressed the real issue when one parent commits to caretaking for children and the other opts out. Growing up in a single family household for many years, I can attest to the issues of money that a single, low-income, minority mother faced. However the most pressing issues were psychological.

My mother needed actual support when she was so stressed from work, school, managing a home, and raising a child with out relief. With no other family available, amazingly a second parent would have been that relief. Parenthood is exhausting work, and money is an amazing help, but it doesn't tackle all or even most issues that actually come up when parenting. Children (like adults) often like to feel loved as well and reducing this argument to money is a shame for childrearing. It shows how western thought is concentrated on financial obligation and legalism and not on more restorative justice practices that would care about harms created in the situation.


. Women have the biological power to bear children or to terminate pregnancies, however they can't force men to parent. They can force men to pay child support or visit, but being a parent involves a commitment, love, joy, and sacrifice and a willingness to actually learn. Wouldn't we all prefer good parents vs. one time child support payments? Biology is unfair, but how we treat children outside the womb is what matters in the long run. Children are not property or collateral, but people with needs, desires, rights, and dreams. I don't have a neat solution, but I would love to see the dialouge transition into one about people, not "choices" and "responsibility". Choice is good, responsibility is good, but ultimately what we do with this power is what matters.

Straw Man
Posted by: benzene on Aug 1, 2006 8:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ma condemns men who "lie, deceive, break their promises, or pull a 180 … who agree to marry but don't," and laments that "millions of women" have been "trapped into single motherhood for life with, often, next to no recourse." Yet according to a randomized study of 46,000 divorce cases published in the American Law and Economics Review, two-thirds of all divorces involving couples with children are initiated by mothers, not fathers, and in only 6 percent of cases did the women claim to be divorcing cruel or abusive husbands.

The quote above illustrates a couple of very classic and widely used ways to make an argument when you don't really have an argument. First, the authors try to make Ma look whiny and unreasonable with the word "laments" and "condemns" in a sort of a glancing ad hominem attack. Then the authors set up a massive straw man and set it afire. By linking single motherhood exclusively with divorce, ignoring all those fathers who never marry their children's mother and simply walk out, they suddenly have statistics that look reasonable but are instead only tangentially related to what Ma orginally wrote. I must give the authors some small and grudging credit for employing fallacious, manipulative, and narrow-minded logic in this manner, but they were also very sloppy about doing it.

Furthermore, a wallet is in no way equal to a womb. A zygote growing within a womb has the potential to endanger a woman's life. Child support doesn't endanger a father's life. Even from that one simple premise, ignoring all the others that exist atop them, it is obvious that wallets and wombs are in no way equivalent.

» RE: Straw Man Posted by: H_H
Men DO Have a Choice
Posted by: Kym525 on Aug 1, 2006 8:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stop thinking with your penises!

There are way too many irresponsible little boys out there whose only claim to the term 'man' is that they have a penis and will use it indiscriminately, regardless of what the potential consequences may be.

It's rather tiresome to hear words like 'slut' and 'hoochie' bandied about when it comes to the sexual behaviour of some women. The last time I checked, it takes two to tango, and if she's a so-called 'slut', what does that make the guy who's stupid enough to have sex with her simply because she may be easily available?

Yes, sex is great and feels good, but the feeling only lasts as long as your orgasm - which for some of you isn't that long at all, hence the need for Viagra.

Bottom line: A RESPONSIBLE man is one who thinks with his brain, not with the appendage between his legs. A RESPONSIBLE man knows how to control his urges, and also knows how to wrap Mr. Happy in a rubber to keep from being a father before he's ready. And a RESPONSIBLE man is willing to be a MAN and step up if something does happen despite all precautions.

Don't worry guys, I'm just as tough on my fellow females too. I'm sick of the whining on both sides.

» RE: Men DO Have a Choice Posted by: FauxPorteno
» RE: Men DO Have a Choice Posted by: MatthewSavage
» RE: Men DO Have a Choice Posted by: FauxPorteno
um
Posted by: pheenobarbidoll on Aug 1, 2006 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"It's wrong to force pregnancy on an unwilling mother; but it's equally wrong to do so to an unwilling father."


How exactly is a PREGNANCY forced onto a father? How can one force a man to get pregnant?

Taking Issue
Posted by: Runicen on Aug 1, 2006 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This has doubtless been covered. Perhaps I'm just taking issue with context here.

First, I don't care which side you're on. If the idea is really that insipid, address IT directly, and don't bother pointing out the clumsy arguments of the opposition or calling into question their character. Things are offensive to us because we don't want to or have difficulty in dealing with them head on. What better time to really get in there and grab the proverbial bull by the horns? Let's try to get something accomplished here.

This issue is being blown out of all hellish proportion by both sides, just as severely as the goddamned abortion debate. The toll on both sides (and in both issues) is human - not biological and not economical. Those are elements of the dilemma, NOT the dilemma itself.

A woman has the right or SHOULD have the right to both be a sexual person, take care of herself, and be loved and supported if and when she becomes a mother, whether by accident or design. At the same time, and this is gravely overlooked in more ways that I've got space to address, men shouldn't feel demonized for being equally open with their sexuality and should feel no less an equal part of the "parental unit" when the magic time comes.

This keeps getting broken down to "post-partum," and "birth pains;" or "child support," and "use a damn rubber." These are ALL straw men. Mistakes happen and life happens. It's a little too convenience to reduce this all to contraception as a means to the end rather than an imperfect bandaid on the broken arm.

Even the way in which this argument is being waged is symptomatic of the underlying issue. Women aren't solely deranged and men don't run around looking for women to impregnate and abandon, much as I could easily fill a school bus with examples of either. I'm not going to venture to say when this all came about, but it's our relationships that are broken. It's the way we're raised to expect no real love, all the selfish ulterior motives in the world, and the ultimate lame f***around of relationships, marriage, etc etc etc.

Let me tell you, all the condoms and child support in the world won't do much to address that.

» RE: Taking Issue Posted by: paintthestreets
» RE: Taking Issue Posted by: Runicen
Women are burdened to take preventative steps --- men should be too.
Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey on Aug 1, 2006 9:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For example, this guy in the R V W for men case (please!); I’d have a lot more sympathy for him were he to have worn a condom. Yeah, she was apparently told something regarding a medical condition, but he put the burden completely on her. He didn’t even bother to find out what it was, to see the statistics on how many pregnancies come about anyways. He just did it. Now wants to cry “ENTRAPMENT!!!”? Give me a break. Men are now seeing that they can’t impregnate as many women as they want with out precautionary measures and responsibilities and most are dealing well.

I especially can’t stand the constant banging on about how she didn’t have to take responsibility for something she didn’t expect (“she can/did opt-out“). Um, yes, she did, and she didn‘t “op-out“ and you can never really “opt-out“ of responsibility when you‘re pregnant. She does, in a lot more ways that he will (plus those nine months), in fact for the next 18 years. If she would have had an abortion that is taking responsibility, also. The fetus gestates in the woman and there is nothing a man can do about that. However she isn’t a flower-pot where everything exists in that vacuum of her uterus. Getting an abortion or keeping the baby when it is born isn’t an easy as one-two-three simply because it isn’t something a man can experience and isn’t solely about money. Its more than money.


Sure, men don’t have BC pills. But that’s because historically the burden was placed on women even thought biologically it is something that comes out of a man and happens to a women. When they try to make them they get messages that men fear they’ll lose their virility. It isn’t women’s responsibility to be responsible for what men do or what they fear. If men have a problem with no having BC pills, blame your fathers and their fathers.

the question is: who pays?
Posted by: okcamp on Aug 1, 2006 9:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the unwilling fathers feel they should have the option of opting out of financial responsibilities then who picks up the tab?

Taxpayers.

That is not fair.

» RE: the question is: who pays? Posted by: daniel1982
» Hey dummy.. Posted by: sln70
100% American male - survey of one says,
Posted by: marklar on Aug 1, 2006 10:04 AM   
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A guy's choice ends where his penis does when it involves a woman's right to reproduction. In marriage we sort of hope that whatever happens is an agreed situation, but in the end, if a woman chooses to terminate a prenancy then that's it.

The Law Itself Must Be Changed
Posted by: Againstthewindwalking on Aug 1, 2006 10:12 AM   
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I have a friend who's wife cheated on him while he was in Iraq, and concieved a child. When the baby was a year old, he discovered the fact, and took his wife to court to sue for a DNA test. After two years of stall techniques by the mother and her lawyers, he won! The DNA test proved that he was NOT the father! Case closed? End of story? WRONG!!! Under North Carolina law he can still be sued for child support, because in the wording of the law he was the child's "Father of Record" and as such, he may indeed be liable for child support!

Another incedent that was recently in the news was the woman who took the semen from a used condom and used it to impregnate herself! I remember that the judge ruled that the semen had been discarded by the man and the woman could use it for what ever pupose she chose, but if the WOMAN impregnated herself with the semen, wouldn't the WOMAN be the father?

A father cannot demand that a DNA test be given to his baby outside of a court of law, yet when the court finally acts after all the stall techniques of the mother's lawyer have been played out, the man is required to pay for the child, whether it is his or not! In some cases he must then pay for the mother's attorney! EVEN IF THE CHILD IS PROVEN NOT TO BE HIS!!!!

How is it that a woman can be rewarded for comitting fraud, and the law will refuse to do anything about it, and even punish the victim? NOW do you see why men are getting upset?

» RE: The Law Itself Must Be Changed Posted by: FauxPorteno
» The problem is that is a separate issue… Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey
» RE: The Law Itself Must Be Changed Posted by: FauxPorteno
Another point of view
Posted by: Maryanne on Aug 1, 2006 11:10 AM   
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There is an alternative to one parent assuming financial responsibility for the child.

A young man we know had an out of wedlock child, and subsequently married the mother. This did not work out. However, because both parents worked, when very young, the child was cared for during the day by paternal (and at times maternal )grandparents, the mother had him all weekdays, and the father all weekends. Older now, the child lives with his father, spends weekends with his mother and weekend evenings with his grandparents. He is loved by all, secure within an extended family, a good student, and a happy boy.

In another instance the parents, divorced, shared custody of their two sons. They chose to live in the same neighborhood, so the children could attend school without disruption and keep their friends and activities. The father had the boys one week, the mother the next. The boys were loved, had close ties with both parents, and have grown up to be fine young men.

In both instances the parents loved their children and cooperated in order to provide the stability and love they needed, with considerable success. And no one paid support to anyone since each supported the children on his/her own when the children were with them. Can be done; has been done. Needed- mature, selfless individuals.

» exactly Posted by: sln70
» RE: Another point of view Posted by: demidesigrrl
» RE: Another point of view Posted by: AnJie
Awwwww
Posted by: Cathryntd on Aug 1, 2006 11:10 AM   
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Number 1 - "It's wrong to force pregnancy on an unwilling mother; but it's equally wrong to do so to an unwilling father" - father's don't get pregnant, so I am not seeing how pregnancy can be forced on one unless there is some new medical break through I am unaware of.

Number 2 - Let's get real people, "men's rights" - are we being serious? Maybe we should start talking about "heterosexual rights" too- everyone good and comfortable with that?

Number 3 - More self-examination, less whining. Do we really think that paying child support is the same thing as raising a child? Do we really think that neglecting to get out a check book is the same thing as going through an abortion or an adoption?

Number 4 - So, boys, how does it feel to not have the physical advantage in one situation? Pretty scary? Kinda like you don't have control?

Number 5 - How does it feel to be made to follow rather than lead?

Number 6 - peace out

» RE: Awwwww Posted by: FauxPorteno
» RE: Awwwww Posted by: Cathryntd
» RE: Awwwww Posted by: zoomorph
» one thing at a time Posted by: sln70
» RE: one thing at a time Posted by: zoomorph
» thank you! Posted by: sln70
» RE: Awwwww Posted by: H_H
» RE: Awwwww Posted by: Durga_is_my_homey
» RE: Awwwww Posted by: ks
He made his choice
Posted by: sassicatz on Aug 1, 2006 11:28 AM   
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by not using any contraception himself. There's no reason on earth a woman should be the only one responsible for contraception.

Apology on Behalf of all the Little Boys
Posted by: felixcommi on Aug 1, 2006 11:58 AM   
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On behalf of the "Men" on this forum I would like to apologize.

The primary issue here for the men is ensuring that they take the appropriate measures (i.e practise "personal resonsibility") and wear protection to prevent their sperm from inseminating an egg.

It is the male's choice to do this or not. If it fails it is a risk we all know is inherent to the process of intercourse.

From that point on it should be in the woman's hands, unless of course the male agrees to lose the elasticity in his stomach skin causing terrible loss of self-esteem, gain 40 lb