COMMENTS: 87
Billions Spent on Border Security Have Failed
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The last 10 years have shown clearly that pumping billions of dollars into beefing up patrols and installing all manner of shiny new gizmos along our 2,000-mile southern border only results in an increase in arrests and detentions, and a nice, fat profit for Department of Homeland Security contractors. It has just about zero effect on the number of immigrants coming into the country.
Consider the numbers. According to a study by the Pew Hispanic Center:
The number of migrants coming to the United States each year, legally and illegally, grew very rapidly starting in the mid-1990s, hit a peak at the end of the decade, and then declined substantially after 2001.Over that very same time period -- starting in Bill Clinton's first term with his "prevention through deterrence" immigration strategy -- spending on border enforcement skyrocketed. In 1994, the government spent around $550 million on border security and about $350 million on inspections at entry points. Clinton increased the budget for border enforcement every year -- spending almost quadrupled during his presidency -- and the immigrants flowed right in. And under Bush's watch, it's quadrupled again; last year, we spent a total of $7.3 billion on enforcement.
That money didn't buy a reduction in immigration; it bought an increase in arrests -- from around 1.2 million in 1992 to a peak of almost 1.7 million in 2000 (it's decreased somewhat since then, along with the total flow of immigrants).
It also has caused more innocent people to die -- as immigrants were forced to find routes through more remote parts of the border zone, and more ruthless professional gangsters have become involved in the process. Deborah Meyers, border policy expert at the Migration Policy Institute, told the Arizona Republic: "It used to be your friend or uncle would smuggle you in. Now, it's in the hands of the professionals."
You know what Albert Einstein said about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The reason enforcement alone doesn't cut it is simple: The surge in entries starting in the mid-1990s didn't originate in Mexico City, in Mexico's southern agricultural states or in the countries to Mexico's south. It started in mahogany-paneled conference rooms in Geneva and London and, most of all, in Washington.
Consider the numbers again. Employment in Mexico's agricultural sector dropped by 16 percent between 1993, the year before the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) went into effect, and 2002. Service sector employment was stable -- it didn't absorb many of those workers. And while manufacturing increased in the maquiladoras between 1994 and 2000 -- when it peaked with about 800,000 jobs -- the maquiladora zone shed 250,000 of those jobs over the next three years, most of them outsourced to China. Make capital mobile, make goods mobile and people will have no choice but to mobilize themselves.
Mexico was promised millions of new jobs under NAFTA, but the promise proved false. The country had a mini baby boom in the early 1980s, and its economy hasn't been able to absorb those babies as they've come of age and entered the work force. Mexico doesn't have unemployment insurance.
And because of Mexico's commitment to the corporate globalization agenda, its government can't do much to reverse the trend -- trade deals aren't about trade so much as tying governments' hands and keeping them from "intervening" in the economy. Mexico can't stimulate its agricultural sector with price supports, protect industries that are vulnerable to cheap imports or subsidize either agriculture or manufacturing.
Were Latin American elites complicit in all of that? Absolutely. But anyone who's read Aileen Kwa's classic Power Politics at the WTO, which details how the European Union, Japan and the United States have used the IMF, the international development banks and good old-fashioned arm twisting to get these deals done, knows that it's a process of coercion as much as negotiation.
And it's not just NAFTA. Average wages in Mexico, adjusted for inflation, are lower today than they were in 1980. Much of Mexico's pain was due to the peso crisis in the mid-1990s ($$). That was a homemade crisis -- and the international institutions ended up bailing the country out of its hole -- but, as economist Mark Weisbrot noted, the crisis was aggravated by Mexico's slavish adherence to the "Washington consensus" -- a set of policies designed to make countries friendly to foreign investors, often at the expense of domestic well-being -- in the preceding years:
In the period prior to the peso crisis, the Mexican government pegged the peso at a level against the dollar that was widely recognized as being over-valued. There were clearly political considerations behind this decision, some of which had to do with winning the approval of NAFTA by the U.S. Congress. The impact of the currency devaluation was also accentuated by Mexico's … increased liberalization over the prior decade, [otherwise] the impact of a currency devaluation would not have been as serious.What all this means is that no matter how much griping we see over immigration right now, the issue doesn't lend itself to quick fixes. I've written in the past that "a progressive approach to immigration would punish employers, not workers, for breaking the law." But even there the devil is in the details. The vast majority of employers already require proof that a person is eligible to work, and a cottage industry of document forgers has grown up to give them that "proof." Civil libertarians on both the left and the right have consistently opposed the answer to that problem -- a national ID card -- for very good reasons.
Then there's the question of who would actually enforce the policy. Police departments across the country have been opposed to shifting resources from their traditional focus to immigration enforcement; a cop needs about 140 hours just in additional training to get a handle on immigration enforcement.
Of course, we're the richest country in the world and we could control every foot of our southern border. We could inspect every work site and check every worker's papers. But what would it take? Collecting every eligible worker's fingerprints? Thirty thousand guys with guns? Fifty thousand?
It's a slippery slope. Once you create an internal security force knocking on doors for one purpose, it's all too easy to turn it around and use it to control the population at large. Civil liberties groups have already expressed concern that the border zone is being used as a multibillion dollar laboratory for new, intrusive technologies that are being adopted by the rest of law enforcement. Be careful of what you wish for on the border, because it may well come to an antiwar protest near you.
Short-term fixes are elusive. The best hope is that people will turn all the emotion and energy that's developed around the immigration issue towards a more serious scrutiny of the trade policies our officials are pushing and at the workings of the international economic institutions that support them.
That's where you'll find plenty of culprits that really deserve to be punished.
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Posted by: nbrown on May 9, 2006 12:27 AM
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This particular line, I think, deserves additonal reflection:
Make capital mobile, make goods mobile and people will have no choice but to mobilize themselves.
How true.
The fact that rich people can move factories across borders, but workers are regulated very closely by the state, shows that globalization is for rich people only.
For anyone who agrees, I hope you'll bring this up in any globalization discussions. We can't really begin to talk about globalization unless there are uniform standards.
A real globalization would tear down borders, not militarize them!
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» Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
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» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
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» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
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» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
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» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
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» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
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» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
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» Please
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Please
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» RE: Please
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Please
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Posted by: rsaxto on May 9, 2006 3:37 AM
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Posted by: adp3d on May 9, 2006 3:46 AM
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Posted by: gar on May 9, 2006 6:06 AM
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As usual, I disagree with the rhetorical trick of calling apples oranges and mixing the statistics on the two as if they were the same. That is, apples are not oranges and illegal aliens are not immigrants. The numbers on apples do not apply to oranges. The numbers on illegal aliens do not apply to immigrants. To do so invalidates any reasonable argument and obscures any point.
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» Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
Posted by: Baranga
» RE: Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
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» RE: Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
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Posted by: Liger on May 9, 2006 6:15 AM
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» RE: That's Right
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Posted by: rinpochet on May 9, 2006 6:54 AM
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Also applies to the USA; wages being driven down with the help of cheap illegal labor from Mexico!
It is strange to see corporations lambasted in this article for making money off building border controls when there is no criticism here for their profiting from illegal labor.
As a nation, we have a duty to our citizens and a right to protect our borders. A wall, or whatever barrier can be provided must be built so that we can then control immigration. It is a farce to require documentation from other visitors to this country, including Canada but then think its fine to allow millions to cross at will without documentation from the south.
If you want a third world country, this is the way to go.
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» RE: Wages
Posted by: montana freeman
» RE: Wages
Posted by: Cardascian
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Posted by: outsidea on May 9, 2006 9:06 AM
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Ignore the usual senseless jawflalpping of the same right wing apologists that regularly appear here...members no doubt of the new National Socialist American Workers Party...they cannot help it.
Joseph
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on May 9, 2006 9:08 AM
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There is also a high demand for jobs among poor Mexicans who can't make a living as farmers thanks to NAFTA; there is a supply of cheap labor jobs in the US (agricultural, manufacturing and servant positions). Manufacturing seems to have gone south of the border,though; manufacturers would rather pay their employees $10 a day (for a ten-hour day) in Tijuana then $10 a hour (plus taxes) in the US. In any case, supply meets demand and people trek hundreds of miles across the Sonoran desert, risking their lives in the hope of getting a $6/hour field labor job. Of course, all immigrants to any country should go through the legal immigration process, period. If you make the legal immigration process difficult or impossible, you can expect more illegals. If you undermine the economies of your neighbors, you can also expect more immigration. Duh.
When Bush calls for a 'guest worker' program, he means that his Texas cronies want to keep labor costs low, but he needs to pander to the wacko racists who want to "keep America for the Americans". When Frist attacks 'immigrants' he is trying to whip up fear and hatred for political gain. It's a delicate balancing act. I often wonder if these people are trying to institute some version of the old two-tier British class system. M'Lord Rumsfeld - doesn't that have a nice ring to it?
If we are really concerned about 'border security', we could do this: recall all National Guard troops to the US (they should never have been sent to Iraq, anyway) and station them along the border. This would be a first good step in leaving Iraq entirely, and maybe they could rescue some of those Sonoran hikers from death by dessication. They might even suceed in slowing the flow of cocaine. Of course, that would drive up the price, giving smugglers even greater incentive to get their product over the border.
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» RE: Cocaine prices as an indicator of border porosity
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Posted by: actnow2 on May 9, 2006 10:18 AM
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And yes it is a crime what they are doing to this country. This is a different world now and we need to start realizing that before it is to late.
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Posted by: fairleft on May 9, 2006 10:20 AM
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"A report last year by the Government Accountability Office, Congress' auditing arm, criticized the lack of emphasis on prosecuting employers of illegal immigrants; it found that investigators issued just three citations for hiring illegal workers in 2004."
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/
news/20060421/1a_lede21.art.htm
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» RE: Holland: Mention Employer Sanctions Solution
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» RE: Holland: Mention Employer Sanctions Solution
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» RE: Holland: Mention Employer Sanctions Solution
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Posted by: djtyg on May 9, 2006 11:16 AM
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» How about sterilization as the penalty for illegal immigration?
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» RE: How about sterilization as the penalty for illegal immigration?
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: How about sterilization as the penalty for illegal immigration?
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» RE: How about sterilization as the penalty for illegal immigration?
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» interesting: ZPG and John Tanton and FAIR
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» RE: interesting: ZPG and John Tanton and FAIR
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» RE: interesting: ZPG and John Tanton and FAIR
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Posted by: Mexile on May 9, 2006 12:01 PM
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In Mexico, the farmer was an independent landowner -- or, on the ejitos -- the collective owner (stockholder) in a small scale agricultural enterprise. Enter NAFTA and the U.S.'s retention of protection for your markets. Result -- Mexican farmers forced to abandon their land to survive. Go to almost any small community in the Mexican countryside and you'll see no adult men -- they're all working in the cities or north of the border.
Secondly, wasn't NAFTA an agreement between the North American countries. How did China become the major trading partner of the U.S.? Are we in Mexico supposed to surpress our unions, lower our wages to subsistance level (that 5 USD figure people like to throw around is the SALARIO MINIMO -- not the "average wage" -- because of historic inflation and the instability of the peso, it's the benchmark used not only for calculating things like poverty levels, but for setting certain costs -- for example, traffic fines are 2 x the Salario Minimo for certain offenses. When the benchmark changes, so does the peso amount of the fine) and forget about silly things like elections. Down here, we'd still be fucked over by your reliance on non-NAFTA China for your cheap beads and trinkets.
Short solution: no corporate agriculture, high tarriff against China.
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Posted by: sidewinder on May 9, 2006 12:34 PM
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» RE: Border Security
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» RE: Border Security
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» RE: Border Security
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Posted by: Liger on May 9, 2006 12:40 PM
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by Alan Reynolds
The House approved by a 389-34 vote a plan to impose criminal penalties and fines of up to $150 million for refiners and wholesalers for "gouging," with a fine of $2 million for retailers.
It is pitiable that 389 House members were so eager to make a public spectacle of their economic illiteracy. It is revealing that they exempted congressional moonshine — otherwise known as ethanol.
The measure "calls on the Federal Trade Commission to develop a definition of price gouging," noted the Associated Press. The House is threatening stern penalties for a crime it cannot even begin to define.
"Gouging" is a meaningless word. Charging more than others do for the same fuel is inconceivable at the wholesale level because fuel is traded on global markets and the going price is instantly visible online.
At the retail level, if one gas station tried to charge 10 cents more than others, consumers would buy their gas elsewhere. But what if that was the only gas station for 100 miles, or the only station willing to stay open Sunday night? In such cases, a higher price is an essential incentive to move fuel to where it is most acutely needed, to encourage station owners to provide fuel at nonpeak hours, and to discourage wasteful use and stockpiling in areas faced with episodic scarcity from a transportation bottleneck or hurricane.
"Addicted to oil" is another meaningless phrase. Passenger cars and light trucks account for only 40 percent of all U.S. oil consumption. And commuting and shopping are not just frivolous "addictions." Nearly as much oil (32 percent) is used by all the addicts who operate buses, airplanes, railroads, trucks, farm machinery and ships. About 17 percent goes into petrochemicals used to make plastics, pharmaceuticals, polyester, paint and many other addictive products. And 4 percent goes to feeding the nation's addiction to paving over dirt roads.
All this sleazy silliness about "addiction" and "gouging" and "robber barons" is just a ruse to prevent us from noticing Congress and the president worsened this international energy squeeze by (1) prolonged warfare in Iraq and threats of war with Iran and (2) a pork-laden "energy bill."
The energy bill had nothing to do with easing regulatory obstacles to the production of natural gas, crude oil or gasoline, or alleviating the federal government's socialist claims of ownership of energy lands. It was all about giving away more billions to the windmill lobby, the hybrid lobby and the politically generous ethanol lobby.
That law, plus threats of lawsuits about a previously mandated gasoline additive, compelled the addition of ethanol to gasoline at a technically arduous pace. That is now causing big problems for those who have to stir some ethanol into numerous state-mandated varieties of gasoline, while refiners make the seasonal switch from heating oil to gasoline.
It takes a lot of petroleum in the form of diesel fuel, fertilizer, plastic and pesticides to produce and distribute corn and turn it into moonshine — about seven barrels of oil to produce eight barrels of corn-based ethanol.
Making ethanol from sugar would be worse because formidable U.S. trade barriers push the cost of sugar far above the world price (making Brazil's ethanol industry irrelevant). Making ethanol from waste is hypothetical for now, as is the uncertain cost. Because ethanol can't flow through pipelines, it is twice as expensive as oil to transport — by fuel-burning truck or rail.
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Posted by: Liger on May 9, 2006 12:40 PM
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A few more thoughts on these matters:
Threatening oil producers because world fuel prices are up makes no more sense than threatening big ethanol producers. The price of ethanol went up just as much as the price of gasoline and is expected to climb higher.
Oil company profits account for a very small portion of the retail price — much smaller than taxes. Oil producers and refiners could not reduce their profits by charging less than the market price. Retailers and distributors would just pocket the difference, or they would quickly run out of fuel if they didn't.
Suspending gas taxes for two months would be unwise because it would artificially stimulate demand at a very inopportune time.
The millions that oil company executives earned from exercising stock options were entirely financed by other stockholders. Stock-based compensation has nothing to do with what the companies charge for products (which cannot be more or less than the market price) or what they pay employees.
Subsidies to consumers who buy hybrids are useless. The highway mileage of large or sporty V-6 and V-8 hybrids is much worse than it is with small 4-cylinder cars.
CAFE fuel standards are useless. Most vehicles on the road are used, not new, and fleet-average mileage standards for domestic producers have no effect on anyone's choice of a new car. Prices, on the other hand, have a big effect.
The price system has important work to do. The House of Representatives, evidently, does not. If anything needs investigating, it's the Congress. Cheap politics cannot produce cheap oil.
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» Have you a central resource for reference? We need this information.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Mixing Gasoline and Moonshine Part II
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» RE: Mixing Gasoline and Moonshine Part II
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: Sandra on May 9, 2006 4:10 PM
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» RE: It's Business As Usual
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» Sandra - Nice try but it won't work.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on May 9, 2006 6:30 PM
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I don't understand this statement. Isn't it our elected government making the trade deals? Isn't this what the voters want? Why would the voters want their hands tied? Are we afraid that the government will "intervene" in our economy? I don't get it.
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» RE: I don't understand this.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» "corporatism or self-governance"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: "corporatism or self-governance"
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» RE: "corporatism or self-governance"
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Posted by: YogiBear on May 9, 2006 10:48 PM
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If you like seeing Mexicans in handcuffs, have stocks in the big defense companies or need cheap, exploitable labor, then you should join the growing chorus calling for more border enforcement to deter illegal immigration.
What's that mean, that if you are like the majority of Americans against illegal immigration, you must be sadistic or rich? One would think that allowing more illegal immigration is what would increase exploitable labor, not disallowing it. But that would make "progressives" look bad, so we'll just let them fudge the figures and have their cake and eat it too.
The last 10 years have shown clearly that pumping billions of dollars into beefing up patrols and installing all manner of shiny new gizmos along our 2,000-mile southern border only results in an increase in arrests and detentions, and a nice, fat profit for Department of Homeland Security contractors. It has just about zero effect on the number of immigrants coming into the country.
I was looking for a footnote that backs this staement up, but couldn't find one. Doesn't it stand to reason that all those arrested and deported individuals were affected? That if there was no enforcment, the numbers would have been a lot higher? Who isn't looking at the economic situation now?
Consider the numbers. According to a study by the Pew Hispanic Center:
The number of migrants coming to the United States each year, legally and illegally, grew very rapidly starting in the mid-1990s, hit a peak at the end of the decade, and then declined substantially after 2001.
I did look at the number at the link. It shows a 1.1 million average for the mid 1990s to 2000, then it went up to about 1.5 million average, then dropped "substantially" back to 1.1 million in 2003. Then, it says, the number went back to about 1.4 million in 2004, which casts the "decline" figures into doubt. Note that these estimates are for total immigrantion, legal and illegal. Not sure if I beleive it, because the US government cites 900,000 a year as the amount of legal immigration from Mexico alone, so how is it that 11 million illegals got here if there were no more than a half million a year for a few years and less than that for more years. Even if it were as high as a half million a year, that would mean that illegals would have to have been living here for as far back as 22 years to add up (which predates the last amnesty!). So either the US figures for legal citizenship is too high, or the 11 million estimate is too high, or the Pew study's estimates are too low.
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Posted by: YogiBear on May 9, 2006 10:49 PM
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It also has caused more innocent people to die -- as immigrants were forced to find routes through more remote parts of the border zone, and more ruthless professional gangsters have become involved in the process.
Which is why a wall would make the situation worse, but more humans and air cover policing the border would catch more people before death. They'd still have to go back, but many more would live.
What all this means is that no matter how much griping we see over immigration right now, the issue doesn't lend itself to quick fixes. I've written in the past that "a progressive approach to immigration would punish employers, not workers, for breaking the law." But even there the devil is in the details. The vast majority of employers already require proof that a person is eligible to work, and a cottage industry of document forgers has grown up to give them that "proof." Civil libertarians on both the left and the right have consistently opposed the answer to that problem -- a national ID card -- for very good reasons.
This is a wink wink nod nod industry. They know when they're hiring large numbers of ilelgals. For starters, employees often don't speak one word of English. So, they know. Policing that doesn't require an ID card. But it does require a governmental push, which would hurt the corporate overlords.
Then there's the question of who would actually enforce the policy. Police departments across the country have been opposed to shifting resources from their traditional focus to immigration enforcement; a cop needs about 140 hours just in additional training to get a handle on immigration enforcement.
Which could be partly paid for with fines from employers. Or we could not fund like two missiles. That should cover it.
Of course, we're the richest country in the world and we could control every foot of our southern border. We could inspect every work site and check every worker's papers. But what would it take? Collecting every eligible worker's fingerprints? Thirty thousand guys with guns? Fifty thousand?
Um, people with binoculars is enough. ring in the cops and medics when they're spotted.
Short-term fixes are elusive. The best hope is that people will turn all the emotion and energy that's developed around the immigration issue towards a more serious scrutiny of the trade policies our officials are pushing and at the workings of the international economic institutions that support them.
With all the emotion and energy y'all have turned toward demonizing the majorities of Americans who are in favor of enforcement, I'd call this one of those pot-kettle moments.
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» RE: efutations pt. 2
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: efutations pt. 2
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» RE: efutations pt. 2
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: efutations pt. 2
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» RE: efutations pt. 2
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: fairleft on May 10, 2006 12:23 PM
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A national ID card is not "the answer" it is another overboard proposal. What is needed is for states to employ the latest high tech in order to make it very difficult to forge state ID cards and driver licenses. Many already do (see http://www.govtech.net/
news/news.php?id=92521), and the feds already employ this technology on green cards and passports. There also need to be stricter national standards on what documents are accepted as proof of legal status or citizenship in order to get one of those documents. The proposed 'Real ID Act' which I think you're referring to when you talk about a national ID card, unnecessarily went beyond those ideas.
"Then there's the question of who would actually enforce the policy. Police departments across the country have been opposed to shifting resources from their traditional focus to immigration enforcement; a cop needs about 140 hours just in additional training to get a handle on immigration enforcement."
140 hours? What fat-contract-seeking training specialist gave you that number. I'll get things off the bat on enforcing employer sanctions for free: 1., Visit employers statistically most likely to employ illegals (provide stats to officers), starting at the top; 2., ask to see company citizenship/status checking procedure and copies of documents provided to establish citizenship/status of all employees; 3. if these cannot be provided, state you will return in 48 hours for both and if they are not provided the employer will be placed under arrest; 4. if they are produced, check that they were done properly under the law (provide officers basic visual and written summary of what procedure and documents should look like; 5. request to speak to company employees who adminstered the document checking procedure; if everything checks out okay, thank the employer for his/her time and be on your way; 6., if documents or procedure are not right, place employer under arrest.
Let's not forget that employers across the country were sanctioned only 3 times in 2004. For the sake of our working poor and Cesar Chavez's ghost, we have do much better than that.
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» RE: More on the Employer Sanctions Easy Solution
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Posted by: Cardascian on May 11, 2006 2:07 PM
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Social Services!
Birthing Cities in any USA town or especially at the BORDER!
Does the USA need breeding machines from womb to tomb?
Are you fat-mow your own lawn!
Why aren't neighbors hiring the kid next door?
Whose nation is this those who break the law and threaten US citizens?
Why should US citizens be arrested when ILLEGAL are not?
Why are you a US generation citizen databased: find you own database and explain why a gov cannot find 20 MILLION illegals and we should pay for their everyneed while our own citizens don't even have healthcare?
Upside down and going into bankruptcy:if you don't see the pattern then all you see is your own selfish tunnel interests.
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» RE: CHEAP LABOR please correct---SUBSIDIZED LABOR by USA Taxpayers
Posted by: Burton
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Posted by: Burton on May 12, 2006 1:42 AM
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Most Americans have not a clue about globalization. Too busy with the "bread and circuses" on their TV screens.
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Posted by: nbrown on May 9, 2006 12:27 AM
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This particular line, I think, deserves additonal reflection:
Make capital mobile, make goods mobile and people will have no choice but to mobilize themselves.
How true.
The fact that rich people can move factories across borders, but workers are regulated very closely by the state, shows that globalization is for rich people only.
For anyone who agrees, I hope you'll bring this up in any globalization discussions. We can't really begin to talk about globalization unless there are uniform standards.
A real globalization would tear down borders, not militarize them!
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» Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
Posted by: fairleft
» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
Posted by: nbrown
» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
Posted by: fairleft
» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
Posted by: nbrown
» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
Posted by: fairleft
» RE: Left Should Say NO to "real globalization"
Posted by: YogiBear
» Please
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Please
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Please
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Please
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: rsaxto on May 9, 2006 3:37 AM
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Posted by: adp3d on May 9, 2006 3:46 AM
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Posted by: gar on May 9, 2006 6:06 AM
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As usual, I disagree with the rhetorical trick of calling apples oranges and mixing the statistics on the two as if they were the same. That is, apples are not oranges and illegal aliens are not immigrants. The numbers on apples do not apply to oranges. The numbers on illegal aliens do not apply to immigrants. To do so invalidates any reasonable argument and obscures any point.
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» Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
Posted by: Jesse
» RE: Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
Posted by: Baranga
» RE: Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Drama, rather than clarity, seems to be Holland's concern.
Posted by: Jesse
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Posted by: Liger on May 9, 2006 6:15 AM
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» RE: That's Right
Posted by: montana freeman
» RE: That's Right
Posted by: Liger
» RE: That's Right
Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: That's Right
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: That's Right
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: That's Right
Posted by: Ratskii
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Posted by: rinpochet on May 9, 2006 6:54 AM
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Also applies to the USA; wages being driven down with the help of cheap illegal labor from Mexico!
It is strange to see corporations lambasted in this article for making money off building border controls when there is no criticism here for their profiting from illegal labor.
As a nation, we have a duty to our citizens and a right to protect our borders. A wall, or whatever barrier can be provided must be built so that we can then control immigration. It is a farce to require documentation from other visitors to this country, including Canada but then think its fine to allow millions to cross at will without documentation from the south.
If you want a third world country, this is the way to go.
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» RE: Wages
Posted by: montana freeman
» RE: Wages
Posted by: Cardascian
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Posted by: outsidea on May 9, 2006 9:06 AM
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Ignore the usual senseless jawflalpping of the same right wing apologists that regularly appear here...members no doubt of the new National Socialist American Workers Party...they cannot help it.
Joseph
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on May 9, 2006 9:08 AM
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There is also a high demand for jobs among poor Mexicans who can't make a living as farmers thanks to NAFTA; there is a supply of cheap labor jobs in the US (agricultural, manufacturing and servant positions). Manufacturing seems to have gone south of the border,though; manufacturers would rather pay their employees $10 a day (for a ten-hour day) in Tijuana then $10 a hour (plus taxes) in the US. In any case, supply meets demand and people trek hundreds of miles across the Sonoran desert, risking their lives in the hope of getting a $6/hour field labor job. Of course, all immigrants to any country should go through the legal immigration process, period. If you make the legal immigration process difficult or impossible, you can expect more illegals. If you undermine the economies of your neighbors, you can also expect more immigration. Duh.
When Bush calls for a 'guest worker' program, he means that his Texas cronies want to keep labor costs low, but he needs to pander to the wacko racists who want to "keep America for the Americans". When Frist attacks 'immigrants' he is trying to whip up fear and hatred for political gain. It's a delicate balancing act. I often wonder if these people are trying to institute some version of the old two-tier British class system. M'Lord Rumsfeld - doesn't that have a nice ring to it?
If we are really concerned about 'border security', we could do this: recall all National Guard troops to the US (they should never have been sent to Iraq, anyway) and station them along the border. This would be a first good step in leaving Iraq entirely, and maybe they could rescue some of those Sonoran hikers from death by dessication. They might even suceed in slowing the flow of cocaine. Of course, that would drive up the price, giving smugglers even greater incentive to get their product over the border.
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» RE: Cocaine prices as an indicator of border porosity
Posted by: montana freeman
» RE: Cocaine prices as an indicator of border porosity
Posted by: VisionQuest
» RE: Cocaine prices as an indicator of border porosity
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: actnow2 on May 9, 2006 10:18 AM
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And yes it is a crime what they are doing to this country. This is a different world now and we need to start realizing that before it is to late.
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Posted by: fairleft on May 9, 2006 10:20 AM
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"A report last year by the Government Accountability Office, Congress' auditing arm, criticized the lack of emphasis on prosecuting employers of illegal immigrants; it found that investigators issued just three citations for hiring illegal workers in 2004."
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/
news/20060421/1a_lede21.art.htm
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» RE: Holland: Mention Employer Sanctions Solution
Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: Holland: Mention Employer Sanctions Solution
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Holland: Mention Employer Sanctions Solution
Posted by: fairleft
» RE: Holland: Mention Employer Sanctions Solution
Posted by: fairleft
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Posted by: djtyg on May 9, 2006 11:16 AM
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» How about sterilization as the penalty for illegal immigration?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: How about sterilization as the penalty for illegal immigration?
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: How about sterilization as the penalty for illegal immigration?
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: How about sterilization as the penalty for illegal immigration?
Posted by: Ratskii
» interesting: ZPG and John Tanton and FAIR
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: interesting: ZPG and John Tanton and FAIR
Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: interesting: ZPG and John Tanton and FAIR
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: interesting: ZPG and John Tanton and FAIR
Posted by: fairleft
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Posted by: Mexile on May 9, 2006 12:01 PM
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In Mexico, the farmer was an independent landowner -- or, on the ejitos -- the collective owner (stockholder) in a small scale agricultural enterprise. Enter NAFTA and the U.S.'s retention of protection for your markets. Result -- Mexican farmers forced to abandon their land to survive. Go to almost any small community in the Mexican countryside and you'll see no adult men -- they're all working in the cities or north of the border.
Secondly, wasn't NAFTA an agreement between the North American countries. How did China become the major trading partner of the U.S.? Are we in Mexico supposed to surpress our unions, lower our wages to subsistance level (that 5 USD figure people like to throw around is the SALARIO MINIMO -- not the "average wage" -- because of historic inflation and the instability of the peso, it's the benchmark used not only for calculating things like poverty levels, but for setting certain costs -- for example, traffic fines are 2 x the Salario Minimo for certain offenses. When the benchmark changes, so does the peso amount of the fine) and forget about silly things like elections. Down here, we'd still be fucked over by your reliance on non-NAFTA China for your cheap beads and trinkets.
Short solution: no corporate agriculture, high tarriff against China.
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Posted by: sidewinder on May 9, 2006 12:34 PM
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» RE: Border Security
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: Border Security
Posted by: doremi
» RE: Border Security
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Border Security
Posted by: Michelle
» RE: Border Security
Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: Border Security
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Border Security
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» RE: Border Security
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: Liger on May 9, 2006 12:40 PM
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by Alan Reynolds
The House approved by a 389-34 vote a plan to impose criminal penalties and fines of up to $150 million for refiners and wholesalers for "gouging," with a fine of $2 million for retailers.
It is pitiable that 389 House members were so eager to make a public spectacle of their economic illiteracy. It is revealing that they exempted congressional moonshine — otherwise known as ethanol.
The measure "calls on the Federal Trade Commission to develop a definition of price gouging," noted the Associated Press. The House is threatening stern penalties for a crime it cannot even begin to define.
"Gouging" is a meaningless word. Charging more than others do for the same fuel is inconceivable at the wholesale level because fuel is traded on global markets and the going price is instantly visible online.
At the retail level, if one gas station tried to charge 10 cents more than others, consumers would buy their gas elsewhere. But what if that was the only gas station for 100 miles, or the only station willing to stay open Sunday night? In such cases, a higher price is an essential incentive to move fuel to where it is most acutely needed, to encourage station owners to provide fuel at nonpeak hours, and to discourage wasteful use and stockpiling in areas faced with episodic scarcity from a transportation bottleneck or hurricane.
"Addicted to oil" is another meaningless phrase. Passenger cars and light trucks account for only 40 percent of all U.S. oil consumption. And commuting and shopping are not just frivolous "addictions." Nearly as much oil (32 percent) is used by all the addicts who operate buses, airplanes, railroads, trucks, farm machinery and ships. About 17 percent goes into petrochemicals used to make plastics, pharmaceuticals, polyester, paint and many other addictive products. And 4 percent goes to feeding the nation's addiction to paving over dirt roads.
All this sleazy silliness about "addiction" and "gouging" and "robber barons" is just a ruse to prevent us from noticing Congress and the president worsened this international energy squeeze by (1) prolonged warfare in Iraq and threats of war with Iran and (2) a pork-laden "energy bill."
The energy bill had nothing to do with easing regulatory obstacles to the production of natural gas, crude oil or gasoline, or alleviating the federal government's socialist claims of ownership of energy lands. It was all about giving away more billions to the windmill lobby, the hybrid lobby and the politically generous ethanol lobby.
That law, plus threats of lawsuits about a previously mandated gasoline additive, compelled the addition of ethanol to gasoline at a technically arduous pace. That is now causing big problems for those who have to stir some ethanol into numerous state-mandated varieties of gasoline, while refiners make the seasonal switch from heating oil to gasoline.
It takes a lot of petroleum in the form of diesel fuel, fertilizer, plastic and pesticides to produce and distribute corn and turn it into moonshine — about seven barrels of oil to produce eight barrels of corn-based ethanol.
Making ethanol from sugar would be worse because formidable U.S. trade barriers push the cost of sugar far above the world price (making Brazil's ethanol industry irrelevant). Making ethanol from waste is hypothetical for now, as is the uncertain cost. Because ethanol can't flow through pipelines, it is twice as expensive as oil to transport — by fuel-burning truck or rail.
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Posted by: Liger on May 9, 2006 12:40 PM
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A few more thoughts on these matters:
Threatening oil producers because world fuel prices are up makes no more sense than threatening big ethanol producers. The price of ethanol went up just as much as the price of gasoline and is expected to climb higher.
Oil company profits account for a very small portion of the retail price — much smaller than taxes. Oil producers and refiners could not reduce their profits by charging less than the market price. Retailers and distributors would just pocket the difference, or they would quickly run out of fuel if they didn't.
Suspending gas taxes for two months would be unwise because it would artificially stimulate demand at a very inopportune time.
The millions that oil company executives earned from exercising stock options were entirely financed by other stockholders. Stock-based compensation has nothing to do with what the companies charge for products (which cannot be more or less than the market price) or what they pay employees.
Subsidies to consumers who buy hybrids are useless. The highway mileage of large or sporty V-6 and V-8 hybrids is much worse than it is with small 4-cylinder cars.
CAFE fuel standards are useless. Most vehicles on the road are used, not new, and fleet-average mileage standards for domestic producers have no effect on anyone's choice of a new car. Prices, on the other hand, have a big effect.
The price system has important work to do. The House of Representatives, evidently, does not. If anything needs investigating, it's the Congress. Cheap politics cannot produce cheap oil.
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» Have you a central resource for reference? We need this information.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Mixing Gasoline and Moonshine Part II
Posted by: Ratskii
» RE: Mixing Gasoline and Moonshine Part II
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: Sandra on May 9, 2006 4:10 PM
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» RE: It's Business As Usual
Posted by: rg
» RE: It's Business As Usual
Posted by: YogiBear
» Sandra - Nice try but it won't work.
Posted by: Lincoln fan
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on May 9, 2006 6:30 PM
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I don't understand this statement. Isn't it our elected government making the trade deals? Isn't this what the voters want? Why would the voters want their hands tied? Are we afraid that the government will "intervene" in our economy? I don't get it.
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» RE: I don't understand this.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» "corporatism or self-governance"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: "corporatism or self-governance"
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: "corporatism or self-governance"
Posted by: Lincoln fan
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Posted by: YogiBear on May 9, 2006 10:48 PM
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If you like seeing Mexicans in handcuffs, have stocks in the big defense companies or need cheap, exploitable labor, then you should join the growing chorus calling for more border enforcement to deter illegal immigration.
What's that mean, that if you are like the majority of Americans against illegal immigration, you must be sadistic or rich? One would think that allowing more illegal immigration is what would increase exploitable labor, not disallowing it. But that would make "progressives" look bad, so we'll just let them fudge the figures and have their cake and eat it too.
The last 10 years have shown clearly that pumping billions of dollars into beefing up patrols and installing all manner of shiny new gizmos along our 2,000-mile southern border only results in an increase in arrests and detentions, and a nice, fat profit for Department of Homeland Security contractors. It has just about zero effect on the number of immigrants coming into the country.
I was looking for a footnote that backs this staement up, but couldn't find one. Doesn't it stand to reason that all those arrested and deported individuals were affected? That if there was no enforcment, the numbers would have been a lot higher? Who isn't looking at the economic situation now?
Consider the numbers. According to a study by the Pew Hispanic Center:
The number of migrants coming to the United States each year, legally and illegally, grew very rapidly starting in the mid-1990s, hit a peak at the end of the decade, and then declined substantially after 2001.
I did look at the number at the link. It shows a 1.1 million average for the mid 1990s to 2000, then it went up to about 1.5 million average, then dropped "substantially" back to 1.1 million in 2003. Then, it says, the number went back to about 1.4 million in 2004, which casts the "decline" figures into doubt. Note that these estimates are for total immigrantion, legal and illegal. Not sure if I beleive it, because the US government cites 900,000 a year as the amount of legal immigration from Mexico alone, so how is it that 11 million illegals got here if there were no more than a half million a year for a few years and less than that for more years. Even if it were as high as a half million a year, that would mean that illegals would have to have been living here for as far back as 22 years to add up (which predates the last amnesty!). So either the US figures for legal citizenship is too high, or the 11 million estimate is too high, or the Pew study's estimates are too low.
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Posted by: YogiBear on May 9, 2006 10:49 PM
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It also has caused more innocent people to die -- as immigrants were forced to find routes through more remote parts of the border zone, and more ruthless professional gangsters have become involved in the process.
Which is why a wall would make the situation worse, but more humans and air cover policing the border would catch more people before death. They'd still have to go back, but many more would live.
What all this means is that no matter how much griping we see over immigration right now, the issue doesn't lend itself to quick fixes. I've written in the past that "a progressive approach to immigration would punish employers, not workers, for breaking the law." But even there the devil is in the details. The vast majority of employers already require proof that a person is eligible to work, and a cottage industry of document forgers has grown up to give them that "proof." Civil libertarians on both the left and the right have consistently opposed the answer to that problem -- a national ID card -- for very good reasons.
This is a wink wink nod nod industry. They know when they're hiring large numbers of ilelgals. For starters, employees often don't speak one word of English. So, they know. Policing that doesn't require an ID card. But it does require a governmental push, which would hurt the corporate overlords.
Then there's the question of who would actually enforce the policy. Police departments across the country have been opposed to shifting resources from their traditional focus to immigration enforcement; a cop needs about 140 hours just in additional training to get a handle on immigration enforcement.
Which could be partly paid for with fines from employers. Or we could not fund like two missiles. That should cover it.
Of course, we're the richest country in the world and we could control every foot of our southern border. We could inspect every work site and check every worker's papers. But what would it take? Collecting every eligible worker's fingerprints? Thirty thousand guys with guns? Fifty thousand?
Um, people with binoculars is enough. ring in the cops and medics when they're spotted.
Short-term fixes are elusive. The best hope is that people will turn all the emotion and energy that's developed around the immigration issue towards a more serious scrutiny of the trade policies our officials are pushing and at the workings of the international economic institutions that support them.
With all the emotion and energy y'all have turned toward demonizing the majorities of Americans who are in favor of enforcement, I'd call this one of those pot-kettle moments.
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» RE: efutations pt. 2
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: efutations pt. 2
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: efutations pt. 2
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: efutations pt. 2
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: efutations pt. 2
Posted by: Joshua Holland
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fairleft on May 10, 2006 12:23 PM
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A national ID card is not "the answer" it is another overboard proposal. What is needed is for states to employ the latest high tech in order to make it very difficult to forge state ID cards and driver licenses. Many already do (see http://www.govtech.net/
news/news.php?id=92521), and the feds already employ this technology on green cards and passports. There also need to be stricter national standards on what documents are accepted as proof of legal status or citizenship in order to get one of those documents. The proposed 'Real ID Act' which I think you're referring to when you talk about a national ID card, unnecessarily went beyond those ideas.
"Then there's the question of who would actually enforce the policy. Police departments across the country have been opposed to shifting resources from their traditional focus to immigration enforcement; a cop needs about 140 hours just in additional training to get a handle on immigration enforcement."
140 hours? What fat-contract-seeking training specialist gave you that number. I'll get things off the bat on enforcing employer sanctions for free: 1., Visit employers statistically most likely to employ illegals (provide stats to officers), starting at the top; 2., ask to see company citizenship/status checking procedure and copies of documents provided to establish citizenship/status of all employees; 3. if these cannot be provided, state you will return in 48 hours for both and if they are not provided the employer will be placed under arrest; 4. if they are produced, check that they were done properly under the law (provide officers basic visual and written summary of what procedure and documents should look like; 5. request to speak to company employees who adminstered the document checking procedure; if everything checks out okay, thank the employer for his/her time and be on your way; 6., if documents or procedure are not right, place employer under arrest.
Let's not forget that employers across the country were sanctioned only 3 times in 2004. For the sake of our working poor and Cesar Chavez's ghost, we have do much better than that.
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» RE: More on the Employer Sanctions Easy Solution
Posted by: outsidea
» RE: More on the Employer Sanctions Easy Solution
Posted by: fairleft
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Posted by: Cardascian on May 11, 2006 2:07 PM
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Social Services!
Birthing Cities in any USA town or especially at the BORDER!
Does the USA need breeding machines from womb to tomb?
Are you fat-mow your own lawn!
Why aren't neighbors hiring the kid next door?
Whose nation is this those who break the law and threaten US citizens?
Why should US citizens be arrested when ILLEGAL are not?
Why are you a US generation citizen databased: find you own database and explain why a gov cannot find 20 MILLION illegals and we should pay for their everyneed while our own citizens don't even have healthcare?
Upside down and going into bankruptcy:if you don't see the pattern then all you see is your own selfish tunnel interests.
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» RE: CHEAP LABOR please correct---SUBSIDIZED LABOR by USA Taxpayers
Posted by: Burton
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Posted by: Burton on May 12, 2006 1:42 AM
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Most Americans have not a clue about globalization. Too busy with the "bread and circuses" on their TV screens.
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