COMMENTS: 207
A History of (Pro-Life) Violence
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A week went by, then another. We were good kids, horny but well behaved, with college and all the rest still to come. It was spring. I was waiting to hear from schools. Neither of us slept.
Heading into week three, we finally sought the counsel of my mother, who calmly suggested that we make an appointment with a gynecologist - immediately. My girlfriend was given a pregnancy test, which came back negative. Another five days went by. I pledged never to have sex with her ever again. I pledged to stop whacking off.
The morning before appointment number two, she called to tell me that her period had arrived at last.
I've been thinking about this episode recently for a couple of reasons. First, of course, because Judge Samuel Alito has been nominated to the Supreme Court. Barring an outburst of moral courage by the Democratic leadership, he will be confirmed and the Court will begin an assault on various civil rights laws, the Clean Water Act, the Endangered Species Act, and other such radical notions. The big prize will be the reversal of Roe Vs. Wade, meaning abortion will again be outlawed, at least in certain states.
The main reason I've been thinking about my high school pregnancy scare, though, is because of an odd email I received a few weeks ago. It was from a young college student in a Southern state. She had read some of my work for class and, as an aspiring writer, she wanted me to know she enjoyed my writing, though she found some of the graphic material difficult to handle, given that she was both a Republican and a Christian who had pledged to remain abstinent until marriage.
I sent her a note of thanks, which (stupidly) included my observation that the current administration did not strike me as particularly Christian, insofar as Christ preached non-violence and ministered to the poor.
Her response began like so: "I must ask, do you believe in abortion? I do realize that it is a liberal stance, but I also realize that not all liberals assume it. If you are, I just don't understand why you feel it's okay to murder innocent babies who just 'didn't come at the right time' or who 'interfere' but don't think it's okay to defend our country from terrorists who have slaughtered countless Americans for their own pleasure?"
I am quoting her because her sentiments reflect, in a refreshingly unfiltered way, the posture of the Religious Right when it comes to abortion. And because I'd like to understand why a virtual stranger would accuse me of being a baby killer.
The answer is this: because doing so is one way of locating her murderous impulses within another. It is a radical example of what psychologists would call projection. This is one of the hallmarks of the Right in this country: an abject refusal to face their own rage. Any act of aggression is invariably framed as self-defense. (See, for tragicomic effect: Bush's claim during the first presidential debate that Iraq attacked us.)
Abortion simply exaggerates this impulse. It allows people to stand outside health clinics and emotionally abuse young women. In extreme instances, it allows individuals to murder doctors and nurses and to view themselves not as terrorists, but saviors. Obviously, not all anti-abortionists kill or harass people. But all of them share a histrionic view of themselves as heroic rescuers (the term pro-lifer says it all) aligned against Godless fornicators.
Ah yes, the fornicators. Embedded in the anti-choice stance is the basic notion that sex for pleasure is wrong. Sex is for procreation, which is why every fetus (in some minds every sperm) is holy. But most people, even Christians, want sexual pleasure a lot more than they want children.
This is why the anti-abortion movement emphasizes the most gruesome aspects of abortion; all those placards with dead babies aren't just there to spook the clients of Planned Parenthood. They are reminders of the horrors that await those of the faithful who fall prey to carnal desire.
Which brings me back to my correspondent. Let's be honest here: any virgin who sends me fan mail is probably a pretty conflicted individual. In some sense, this young horndoggle needs the specter of being a baby killer to keep her from … impure thoughts. Her note is also typical of anti-choiceniks in its flabbergasting solipsism. It seems never to have occurred to her that there might be a world outside her own beliefs; that a pregnant woman's body is her own property, not that of the state or any religious interest group; that the issue here is one of individual liberty, not ideology.
Nor has it occurred to her that those women who get abortions suffer considerable anguish, that they are not sex-crazed degenerates who waltz into the stirrups whistling "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Da." In fact, the feelings of the mother, the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy, mean nothing to anti-abortionists. All that matters is the unborn soul, which becomes the object onto which they project all their tender wishes about this fallen world.
It is here that the rage of the anti-choice movement gives way, briefly, to despair. They want to believe in a world where every soul truly is precious, as God promised, in which every fetus -- if allowed to come into the world -- will become part of His divine plan. The unborn child becomes, in other words, a powerful object within their emotional cosmology, a means by which they can connect to their own quasi-divine nobility, the sanctification of potential life over actual life.
The problem is that unborn children eventually get born and must live in the actual world. In this sense, "pro-lifers" are like the baby daddies of the spiritual world: full of promised love for the abstraction, and nowhere to be found when the kid shows up. They don't want to deal with the fact that some children in this country grow up starved of love, and warped by poverty.
It should come as no surprise that the anti-choice movement is ascendant at the moment. The Bush era has marked, above all, a dramatic shift away from the tragic complexity of the world. Instead, the citizens of this country have been encouraged to indulge their most childish impulses: rage, hypocrisy, self-absorption. What is surprising is the abject failure of the left to call them out on this crap. Cowed by the infantile rhetoric the Religious Right, slavish after those elusive swing voters, Democrats have refused to frame the debate as one over reproductive rights.
Which brings me to a final story. A few days after the last presidential election, I found myself talking with a friend of friend who lived in suburban Virginia. She was a single woman of about thirty. She and many of her friends had had abortions. And yet she voted for Bush. I asked her if she had any idea what Bush's views on abortion were. She replied that she didn't know what either of the candidates thought about abortion. It hadn't been a big issue.
I was astounded by her ignorance. But then I thought about the way the campaign had unfolded. When questioned in the second debate, Kerry had been careful to make clear his personal objection to abortion. He seemed almost ashamed to add that he didn't believe the state should regulate the bodies of its female citizens.
In the weeks to come, the usual pro-choice suspects will dutifully argue on behalf of a woman's rights to choose. That's not going to be enough. The leadership of the left has to recognize that those who oppose choice are not simply benighted crusaders, but bullies who are exploiting the abortion issue to exalt their pathologies.
The choice to abort an unborn child is, without a doubt, a modern tragedy. Forcing poor women to seek out illegal practitioners is a medieval one.
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Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Dec 1, 2005 1:15 AM
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» RE: Score!
Posted by: redstarwraith
» Bonehead...
Posted by: CLB
» Contradiction
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Score!
Posted by: kc4choice
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Posted by: ShaSpirit on Dec 1, 2005 1:35 AM
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Being a female who grew up in a time when our sex was not allowed to get angry, I do not know how to deal with some types of ambiguity and conflict it causes me to feel. There is healthy anger and then there is irrational anger. Example, a drug I take used to cost $4.95/30. Last year when Walgreens was supposed to be helping seniors this generic discount the drug when up to $43.79. It was listed at the lower price online also. I tried to tell them it was the wrong price, but their computer said otherwise. I became irrational and told them to keep their drugs, marched out of the store. I was in raged, but there was nothing I could do to change the price. I was shaking so hard, I hardly could put my key in the ignition.
I think, as this article points out, I have had no way to spend my anger about so many things this Bush&CO have done. I did not really make a lot of sense at the time, except it was not fair. How many times have we said it is not fair in the last five years? Now I get so angry to see or hear Bush say anything, so I do not listen to or watch him.
Abortion is the one thing the religious right can use to stir people up, since it has to do with sex. Self-righteous people use the same kind of rage to deal with abortion. They are little people in a country that uses sex to sell everything. What ever fears they were taught as children, still lives buried in their psyches. Bad women have sex for other reasons than making babies, therefore we must punish them for enjoying sex. This is not rational. It goes back over 1000 years of church teachings. Enjoying of sex is a mortal sin, as in witchcraft. People were killed for it.
Irrational people cannot deal with their own feelings, it is so much easier to project and judge others. They can feel self righteous and make someone's else's life miserable. They sure cannot deal with any ambiguity. Things are either white or black. There are no grays in their world.
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» RE: Article points out once again how hard it is to argue with non-thinking people
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: ChristopherL on Dec 1, 2005 3:54 AM
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» RE: Sexuality and Aggression
Posted by: triana1326
» RE: Sexuality and Aggression
Posted by: Lizka
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Posted by: bry1050 on Dec 1, 2005 4:09 AM
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» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: Greg
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: crachlis
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: bry1050
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: jp77
» And vote minorities out of the workplace, too!
Posted by: Bic Pentameter
» RE: And vote minorities out of the workplace, too!
Posted by: crachlis
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: ajgreep
» Personally opposed
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 1, 2005 5:37 AM
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Yes, suburban VA has had a little of single of both sexes vote repug but not because of "abortion". Two major questions the Democrats can use to successfully frame the debate and both involve taking the "conservative" ideology and using it against them kind of like the way Kaine used the ideology against KILgore and won:
1. If you believe in "ownership society", why not extend that priviledge to women? After all, it's not that any of these women who are pursuing an "abortion" are doing it because they simply don't feel like having children.
2. Bush and his cronies in Congress and corporate America never need a permission slip to abort thousands to millions of lives year after year what with their destructive policies whether we're talking about the economy, the environment, foreign policy, etc ... so why force women to get a permission slip if they're truly unable to give birth to that child, most likely the result of rape or incest?
The day(s) more of us American people grow a real spine, the neocon movement will collapse and go down in flames.
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Posted by: mewithoutyou on Dec 1, 2005 5:48 AM
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» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: Dave04
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: Envi
» Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: Jasonix
» Certainly!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-life" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» Whoa there Mr. Stoney!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» In short...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: In short... I agree whole heartedly!
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» Superlative. Open a drugstore.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Superlative. Open a drugstore.
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» My beef ain't with drugs.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I can relate
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: In short...
Posted by: jstillwater
» RE: Whoa there Mr. Stoney!
Posted by: aviendha36
» RE: Whoa there Mr. Stoney!
Posted by: Vyking
» RE: Hey, have you ever lived in a small town or many 100miles a way?
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: Tiko
» A couple of thoughts
Posted by: kc4choice
» Another bonehead.
Posted by: CLB
» My point is that cults, and cultist-like behavior, generally flies AGAINST personal choice.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Pharmacist judges
Posted by: duck-lady
» That's an awesome power you have.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: hhartman
» You hit the nail on the head.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: Envi
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: tigtog
» RE: Thou shalt not kill?
Posted by: harpy
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: juanitoboy_34
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: bry1050
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: kwms
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Posted by: Jim on Dec 1, 2005 6:11 AM
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As one who participates in anti-war, anti-death penalty, and anti-abortion actions, I thought I could inform you that the motivation for each is the same. I believe that killing people is wrong. The "projection" that motivates being for life -- relating to war, the death penalty, or abortion -- is the simple moral command shared by many, "do onto others as you would have others do onto you."
Personally war arouses my emotions to motivate me to work against injustice more that abortion does.
But medically the unborn child is a separate individual human being from the mother. The issue is what human beings have value.
Anti-war people sometimes publish photos of people killed in war for the same reason anti-abortion people publish photos of children killed by abortion; it helps people realize the humanity of the victims.
If you are interested in this point of view, check the group Consistant Life. Their mission statement is "We are committed to the protection of life, which is threatened in today's world by war, abortion, poverty, racism, capital punishment and euthanasia. We believe that these issues are linked under a 'consistent ethic of life'. We challenge those working on all or some of these issues to maintain a cooperative spirit of peace, reconciliation, and respect in protecting the unprotected."
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» RE: Life ethic-you're wrong about the "medically seperate" bit
Posted by: rebeers01
» RE: Life ethic-you're wrong about the "medically seperate" bit
Posted by: ariessag
» RE: Consistant Life ethic
Posted by: operabuff
» RE: Consistant Life ethic
Posted by: CLB
» RE: The ethic of love
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» InConsistant Life ethic
Posted by: jwg
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Posted by: Dixie on Dec 1, 2005 7:21 AM
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» RE: Dixie
Posted by: kwms
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Posted by: just john on Dec 1, 2005 7:35 AM
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Y'know, a comprehensive list of specific incidents. (Bombings, killings, etc.)
Anybody have a link to one?
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» RE: I was hoping ...
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: I was hoping ...
Posted by: iamdazey
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Posted by: ddmffood on Dec 1, 2005 7:45 AM
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My maternal grandmother died of peritonitis caused by a botched abortion when my mother was 9 months old. The reasons for her choice have been lost over time; she was married and had one child. This left my mother to be raised by a succession of aunts, and then finally, by the Poor Clares in a convent. She never had a family per se, and the nun's ideas about discipline were draconian at best, and would be more than just a little illegal today.
She had no idea about how to be a mother. I was alternately neglected, pampered and beaten. I remember kneeling with a pencil under each knee for hours. When I played with fire, she lit the stove and held my tiny hands over the flames until they blistered.
I cannot know for sure, but I think my life would have been profoundly different had she been raised by a loving mother. Let's not go back there, to the days when a woman's body was not her own.
They are making it more difficult to obtain or learn about effective contraception, which cannot help but lead to even more unwanted pregnancies. It defies reason.
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» RE: Tragic results of back street abortion
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Tragic results of back street abortion
Posted by: Maryanne
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Posted by: rebeers01 on Dec 1, 2005 8:04 AM
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I am a women's health nurse who takes care of women who have second trimester abortions. The general public DOES NOT REALIZE the potential impacts of Alito and reversal of Roe v. Wade.
As a women's health nurse, I am mortified about what could happen if abortion became illegal again. As a woman, I am terrified. What if my IUD fails? I don't want children, period. I don't want to be forced to go through nine months of pregnancy, period. I guess I should just stop having sex...
Which is the whole point of the religious right. Men can keep having sex, they won't get pregnant. Women must bear the costs.
I love the "baby daddies" bit in the article. I'll start believing that the religious right really care about 'little babies' when they start supporting universal health care, fair distribution of wealth, the end of gender discrimination which lends to female and child poverty, and fair trade, which will give women the tools (money) they need in developing countries to feed their children.
Don't even get me started on the Global Gag Rule....
Thanks again for a great article, and thanks alternet for the space to have dialogue.
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» RE: hurray!
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: hurray!
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» Our bodies, our choices
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 1, 2005 8:20 AM
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1. An ideologically pure Democratic position on abortion rights.
2. Democrats winning national elections without the benefit of a major scandal like Watergate.
Winning a majority in the Electoral College requires the Democratic candidate to carry at least one borderline redneck state like Florida or Missouri.
If you want to peel away 5-plus percent of the NASCAR dad vote in 2008, you're going to have to give up a little of your ideological purity on abortion rights.
Stop insulting the intelligence and capacity for compassion of Southern evangelicals, and maybe another five percent of them will vote for your Presidential candidate in 2008.
Keep calling them unfeeling bigots who want to keep upper middle-class white coeds barefoot and pregnant, and your guy will not win in 2008 unless somebody catches a prominent Republican with a dead girl or a live boy.
The choice, pardon the pun, is yours.
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» Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: gerdhansel
» RE: Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: so is the first amendment
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 1, 2005 8:22 AM
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This was a courageous and provocative movie starring Robert Duvall and Faye Dunaway.
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» RE: "The Handmaid's Tale"- by Margaret Atwood
Posted by: rebeers01
» RE: "The Handmaid's Tale" becoming reality
Posted by: DFrost
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Posted by: Xanthippe on Dec 1, 2005 8:49 AM
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» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: db
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: iamdazey
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: iamdazey
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Posted by: db on Dec 1, 2005 8:55 AM
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6 1/2 months....he looked like a baby to me. What about looking at the science of when a foetus can sense pain? Is this a good ethical point to draw the line on having an abortion? Let us show our compassion and strength to being willing to investigate the truth, fearlessly.
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» Good thought.
Posted by: DFrost
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Posted by: lee slaughter on Dec 1, 2005 9:05 AM
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» RE: ms
Posted by: db
» RE: ms
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: ms
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: ms
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: ms
Posted by: Jim
» RE: ms
Posted by: Vyking
» RE: ms
Posted by: Jim
» RE: ms
Posted by: aviendha36
» RE: ms
Posted by: lee slaughter
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Posted by: believer on Dec 1, 2005 9:28 AM
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» RE: Believer
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Believer
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Believer
Posted by: threedfm
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Posted by: daniel1982 on Dec 1, 2005 9:45 AM
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Nor has it occurred to her that those women who get abortions suffer considerable anguish, that they are not sex-crazed degenerates who waltz into the stirrups whistling "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Da."
Except the ones that wear 'I had an abortion' t-shirts during rallies... they seem to be quite fine with it, even proud. Which brings me to my next point. Abortion is nothing to be proud of. If you're in the position where you're considering abortion it means you screwed up royally somewhere along the way(with the exception of rape victims). So smarten up.
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» RE: maybe
Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: maybe
Posted by: Vyking
» RE: maybe
Posted by: morticia
» Late term abortion
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: xenacat on Dec 1, 2005 10:11 AM
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» RE: pathologies running amok
Posted by: rickbwa
» RE: pathologies running amok
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 1, 2005 10:29 AM
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Enough time has passed that people's memories are getting fuzzy. A generation has grown up in an era of safe, legal abortion, with no real notion of the reality of the pre-Roe era, when women were separated from existing medical technology because of laws and ideology, and often died horribly because of it. Worse, there are "pro-life" historical revisionists extant nowadays who are saying that all those horror stories you hear about pre-Roe abortion--coat hangers, bleeding to death on motel room floors, being met by strange men and riding blindfolded in the back of a car--are a big exaggeration, mere propaganda. Those of us who were "there" need to testify loud and clear. And we say: Never Again!
Read more at:
http://www.motherjones.com
Look for an article from Sept./Oct 2004 called "The Way it Was." More reading: THE WORST OF TIMES, by Patricia G. Miller
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» RE: The Bad Old Days
Posted by: liberalibrarian
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Posted by: esactun on Dec 1, 2005 11:52 AM
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Don't like abortion? Don't have one! Lots of people, including the alleged patriots in Washington, have a fundamental misunderstanding of freedom. Only allowing others do do what fails to offend YOU is NOT freedom, ferchrissakes!
The poster who (unintentionally, it seems) echoed right-wing propaganda above--ie that needing an abortion is a sure sign "you've screwed up royally" (!)-- should learn about a nasty little reality known as "contraceptive failure."
Ok, that was three points. Sorry.
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» RE: two points
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: two points
Posted by: morticia
» RE: two points
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: two points
Posted by: morticia
» RE: two points
Posted by: Vyking
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Posted by: esactun on Dec 1, 2005 11:58 AM
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Do ALL women feel this way? No. But you can't claim that none do, or that it's wrong to feel that way--any more than right-wingers can claim that all women feel this anguish, and that NOT feeling it is wrong.
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Posted by: harpy on Dec 1, 2005 12:49 PM
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Posted by: Numinous on Dec 1, 2005 1:29 PM
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» RE: Anti-choice, Anti-pleasure
Posted by: churchofone
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 1, 2005 1:31 PM
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Posted by: zentao on Dec 1, 2005 1:42 PM
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This test is meant to illustrate how our enemy can so often look just like us, only holier. Profile these assholes:
1. In June of 1964 three civil rights workers in Mississippi were gunned down and buried in a ditch that had been dug out earlier, specifically to rest their rotting corpses, by a group of
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50 (the man most recently tried in this case, Edgar Killen, was 38 and an ordained Baptist minister at the time that he conspired to murder the men)
2. From 1976 to 1983 as many as 30,000 were killed and tortured in Argentina; many of those who disappeared were disemboweled and thrown from airplanes into the ocean; others were killed and buried in mass graves. These atrocities were committed by
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50 (during the “Dirty War”. Look it up)
3. Tony Alamo was charged with felony child abuse for his involvement in the beating in 1988 of an 11-year-old boy that was so severe it left him unable to sit for almost three weeks. Alamo was a leader of a religious sect in California, and a
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremist between the ages of 17 and 50 (spank them into submission, that always works. Especially for the Christian father that in January of this year beat his son to death trying to “box” with him because he was afraid his son was going to turn out gay)
4. Paul Hill was the first person executed in the US for anti-abortion violence, after he was convicted of the 1994 slayings of Dr. John Britton and his bodyguard. Hill was a
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremist between the ages of 17 and 50 (and was also a former Presbyterian minister—double trouble! Thank you so much for helping rid the world of those pesky doctors.)
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Posted by: zentao on Dec 1, 2005 1:43 PM
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a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50 (we all remember Mr. McVeigh and Terry Nichols)
6. In 1998 Matthew Shepard was beaten and left for dead by two men. He was found the next day, alive but never regaining consciousness due to his catastrophic brain damage. He had been pistol-whipped 18 times with a revolver. Since being imprisoned, his murderers have both justified their actions by claiming that they were dictated by the Bible. His murderers are shining examples of misguided
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremists between the ages of 17 and 40 (in quite possibly my favorite example of Christian hate-mongering, Reverend Fred Phelps and his supporters picketed Shepard’s funeral, displaying signs with slogans such as “Matt Shepard rots in Hell” and “God Hates Fags.”)
7. In January of 1998 a bomb was detonated in a Birmingham, Alabama women’s clinic. The blast killed one and left over a hundred injured. The man found to be responsible for this heinous crime was also found to be responsible for a blast during the 1996 Olympics that killed a woman and injured 100, as well as an attack on a gay nightclub. The bomber, Eric Rudolph was a
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40 (Rudolph wrote a statement during his trial that included frequent quotes from the Bible and condemnations of homosexuality)
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Posted by: zentao on Dec 1, 2005 1:43 PM
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a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremist between the ages of 17 and 40 (at his Pennsylvania home, his truck bears a license plate with the word Jesus and a picture of a cross. Even more ironic is the stone in the garden painted with a Bible verse from the book of Hosea “Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love…” (10:12))
9. Proving there are always new ways to shake things up, pharmacists all over the country are now refusing women’s prescriptions for birth control and the morning-after pill. Some of these pharmacists are so adamant about forcing their morality upon others that they hold the prescription hostage and will not transfer it to a doctor willing to fill it. The pharmacists who are imposing restrictions on these women’s reproductive rights claim that their religious views do not allow them to fill such prescriptions. Who the fuck thinks they can do this?
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremists between the ages of 17 and 50 (there have reportedly been cases of pharmacists who mistakenly believe that contraception is a form of abortion and refuse to dispense it to anyone, or who will only provide birth-control pills to a woman if she is married. Find a new job asshole!)
You know I just can’t even keep doing this. Your moral exhibitionism makes me sick. So I propose that we begin to profile a new group of dangerous people—conservative, right wing, proselytizing Christians with every intention of homogenizing the globe, who don’t know shit about Jesus. Amen brother.
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» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: crachlis
» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: juanitoboy_34
» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: juanitoboy_34
» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: sydmil on Dec 1, 2005 1:48 PM
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Seriously though, it is beyond me that people don’t realize that medical / surgical abortions represent major progress in the human society. Abortions are a part of life and if some fanatics think that they can fight war against abortions then we already know what results to expect looking at the success of the drug war. I like the author’s closing paragraph:
"The choice to abort an unborn child is, without a doubt, a modern tragedy. Forcing poor women to seek out illegal practitioners is a medieval one"
amen
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 1, 2005 2:37 PM
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 1, 2005 2:54 PM
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No matter who the Democratic candidate is in 2008, they will have to win at least three of these four swing states to obtain a majority in the Electoral College.
It isn’t about being right, wrong, fair or ideologically pure. It’s about winning national elections. All other politics is local.
Don’t knock bait-and-switch politics. It’s been working just fine for the Republicans. The ultimate bait-and-switch at the national level is the Karl Rove tactic of talking about "values" to Southern Evangelicals so they’ll vote against their economic self-interests.
This is the "God, Guns and Gays" strategy that keeps the corporate lackeys in power. Economic populists like John Edwards are on the right track: hammer home the idea that corporate dominance of the country and the political system by Wal-Mart and Exxon is bad for Mom and Pop, bad for bread-and-butter issues.
If Democrats like Edwards can find common cause with just five percent more of these NASCAR dads, they might even swing a couple of Southern states' Electoral votes into the Democratic column.
But if party extremists keep hammering away on divisive issues like abortion, gay marriage, gun control and global warming, the rednecks will turn a deaf ear to any message about economic populism.
Clinton was right on this issue -- it's the economy, stupid. Stick to pocketbook issues like battling union-busting corporations and right-to-work laws in states like Oklahoma and Nevada, and you may peel away enough of these redneck voters to win back the Presidency without a scandal in your hip pocket.
If the right keeps winning national elections with the "God, Guns and Gays" bait-and-switch, trust me, they will eventually move all federal courts to the right, and the filibuster won't save you.
Win national elections, repeat after me, win national elections.
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» Yes, US politics has become a war. The only way to stop this war is to win it.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: Cheech on Dec 1, 2005 7:10 PM
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Thank you especially though for this observation:
"It should come as no surprise that the anti-choice movement is ascendant at the moment. The Bush era has marked, above all, a dramatic shift away from the tragic complexity of the world. Instead, the citizens of this country have been encouraged to indulge their most childish impulses: rage, hypocrisy, self-absorption."
That's exactly what these people are selling! I've been confounded by why seemingly sentient people have supported Bush against their own real-world interests. It's the allure of this carefree frat-boy fantasy. Who cares if you can't pay your bills? Here's a self indulgent utopia for closet sado-masochists. [Which is what all religious fanatics are in their hearts after all, with all that bipolar cycling between self-rightous rage and groveling self flagelation.] They're all sucking on blue velvet while us dumb leftists worry about our fellow man struggling in a hell of starvation, torture, toxic flood waters and white phosphorous. We could relieve ourselves of this burden of conscience and embrace the Republican frat-boy philosophy: "God belongs to me; I'm not responsible - even for myself; The law only applies to my inferiors; Only I deserve a free lunch; ""Not all poor people are murderers""; Mommy will make Daddy clean up yet another of my messes by throwing money around"; etc.
This explains a lot. Thanks for the epiphany.
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Posted by: CLB on Dec 1, 2005 8:23 PM
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Posted by: ShaSpirit on Dec 1, 2005 9:56 PM
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There is a great book that has been read in a lot in New Age study groups. It is called the "Celestine Prophecy." It talks of such things and the reasons we have children and the responsibility that it entails. It take a whole village to raise a child. Children are supposed to be loved and supported. I do not think you have to be a Christian to read this book, for it is a good read that seems very autobiographical. Like everything in the book really happened.
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» RE: the soul that adopts you as a parent will return when you are ready
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: the soul that adopts you as a parent will return when you are ready
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: JesseBC on Dec 1, 2005 11:59 PM
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» RE: Not the boy I'd want my sister dating
Posted by: Xanthippe
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Posted by: jdonovan on Dec 2, 2005 1:27 AM
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Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! AAAAaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhh!
Ok, so I'm a 21-year-old guy and I'm almost definitely more left-wing than any of you. I have absolutely no moral qualms about any kind of consensual sex for recreation. I don't belive in God. And I don't believe that the government should restrict the rights of those born in America for the sake of those unborn in America. I'm definitely pro-choice.
Fine. Okay.
But let's take a step back. What is the point of this kind of argument?! Are you guys listening to yourselves? This kind of article achieves only two things: It pisses off just about everybody who disagrees with it, and it encourages those who do agree with it to be more closed-minded about the issue. I guarantee you, not one person in the world read this article and said, "Wow! I have been projecting my lamentations about the world on unborn non-persons this whole time! Okay, let's kill them now."
Pro-life, pro-choice, anti-life, anti-choice...all this wordplay and arguing comes down to one question, and it has nothing to do with projection or blame or politics. When does life begin? Does it begin at birth? Does it begin at conception? Are you throwing away babies when you beat off into a tissue?
Of course no one is satisfied with the actual answer: Life begins when lightning strikes the organic, molten surface of a primordial planet where the conditions are just right. Humans are quite capable of destroying life, but even cutting-edge chemists and roboticists have thus far failed to create it. "Yes, but...." Uh-huh. I told you you wouldn't be satisfied.
So go ahead. Talk about how God couldn't possibly dole out souls before an embryo has reached the stage where it can't divide into twins anymore. Talk about how the government's job is to bolster its citizens' quality of life, not their sheer number. Talk about how an aborted fetus might have become a doctor that saved millions. Say the same thing about a teen mother. Argue about freaking abortion! STOP ATTACKING EACH OTHER! I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING!
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» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: owleyes on Dec 2, 2005 10:00 AM
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» RE: why deign to honor the archetype
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: why deign to honor the archetype
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: why deign to honor the archetype
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: threedfm on Dec 2, 2005 12:27 PM
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The gov. shouldn't be in a persons privat life . thats between a woman and her GOD she alone has to answer to him and he alone will do the judging . God will judge every one connected . Right or worng we all will answer to him .
Maybe Hillter's mother mother should have had an abortion !!!!!!!
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» RE: Killers are Killers
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Killers are Killers
Posted by: liberalibrarian
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Posted by: sneakysnake on Dec 2, 2005 9:18 PM
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And I agree with others that until "pro-lifers" are more willing to take serious responsibility for all the lives they "save" by ending abortion, we can't end it.
I mean, is the point just creating cannon and prison fodder?
Sometimes I wonder.
Read Derrick Jensen's "The Culture of Make Believe" for some fascinating discussion of related issues.
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Posted by: Jbuuty on Dec 3, 2005 7:58 AM
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As the article progresses the writer gives up on analysis and continues with primarily name-calling. This is roughly a similar methodology to Bill O'Reilly (though O'Reilly never attempts analysis - straight to name-calling). When the left lowers itself to promoting falsehoods and name-calling, such as Almond does in this column, there is very little difference between the left and the extreme right.
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Posted by: Jeffersonista on Dec 3, 2005 9:35 AM
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Posted by: nomad5020 on Dec 3, 2005 6:23 PM
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The other side of this is the reality view. People are raped, get drunk, have sex, are atheist, and understand that people are very different and should be accepted for being this way. The only problem is that the former view dominates for multiple reasons. The major one is that it is easier to make people fear something than to accept something.
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Posted by: ronavila on Dec 4, 2005 6:03 AM
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Posted by: jainist on Dec 4, 2005 3:34 PM
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Posted by: jonny_noog on Dec 4, 2005 4:53 PM
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a) These religions were created to serve the interests of men (heads of government, industry and religion), who need servants, soldiers and now consumers.
b) The same kinds of men need every weapon at their disposal in order to keep women in their place, at home performing unpaid labour that keeps our current dominant social system running. All this "respect for life" propaganda is just how those in power sell the idea to their public. No Child Left Behind? Crap. Ask your self if they (presently defining "they" as heads of government, industry and religion) really respected life would they be forgetting about those precious babies nearly the minute they are born?
c) My personal theory is that Christians/Catholics (and let's face it, the only real difference between Christians and Catholics is the geographically differing power bases that each branch evolved to serve even if they themselves think the differences are more than that) due to their obsession with the concept of "sin" (which in its self is simply another means for the elite to control the masses) have it in their heads that the only truly innocent in this world are in fact those who have not been sullied by the inherent sin that this world infects a new life with shortly after birth. e.g., The child starts to talk back... Perhaps the child does not accept that he is a worthless sinner and only with total fealty to the almighty church can he be saved.
Therefore, in true illogical brainwashed style, the Christian fights to the death for the right of a "true innocent" to live... Up to the point when that life is no longer a "true innocent" e.g., when that life actually becomes a person and can think for its self. Once this happens, the Christian is no longer interested in saving what has become an imperfect and sinful human being and moves on to the next mass of cells that can be classified as a "true innocent".
This motivating process is all on an unconcious level of their mind of course, as are most motivations of people who fear more than anything else to face reality and what's written on their own soul. Easier for them to preach love and forgiveness while they hypocritically practice nither. Ask them though and they'll kill you before they even consider the possibility their motivations are not pure and loving
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» RE: Could not agree more with this article
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: aphillips on Dec 4, 2005 5:03 PM
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Posted by: LuisNolan on Dec 4, 2005 10:03 PM
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You continue with "And because I'd like to understand why a virtual stranger would accuse me of being a baby killer." when you have just accused, in your subtitle, a huge portion of the country that has pro-life values of being killers. Finally you say "This is one of the hallmarks of the Right in this country: an abject refusal to face their own rage." when liberals constantly talk about their own "rage" in sites like this: http://liberalrage.livejournal.com/ and liberal rage is evident even at major events like the 2004 Hollywood fundraiser where the Democrat Party would not release the video because of the disgusting behavior it depicted:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/14/fundraiser.flap/
You might take a hint from Robet Burns' lines:
"O wad some Power the giftie gie us / To see oursels as ithers see us!" (poem: "To a Louse") and see if your own criticism fits you first before applying it to another.
No one is so full of rage as he/she who sins against God. Separation from God is called Hell. It is not a place but a state of existence. Violation of God's commandments is called "Hell on Earth". The person who can destroy a developing human life because he/she (never an "it") is inconvenient is surely in Hell. Sex is part of a continuum which involves marriage, children, and above all love.
Those who artificially try to stop the sex contimuum at orgasm end up committing the crime of abortion and the greater crime of blinding yourselves to the humanity of an unborn child. That blindness is the civil rights crime of STAGISM = discrimination based on stage of biological development and it is equal in evil to the blindness called RACISM = discrimination based on race, skin color, and facial features. I was once a "fetus" and I claim that stage of development as my own - I was fully human in spirit though not in form. And no one can take away my Right to Life. It may be legal now but it is immoral in terms of humanity.
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» RE: Complete inability to see yourself.
Posted by: Rowaninfinity
» RE: Complete inability to see yourself.
Posted by: ronavila
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 4, 2005 10:43 PM
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http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/
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Posted by: LuisNolan on Dec 5, 2005 8:25 AM
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Yes, that woman's death was a tragedy and it was hell-on-earth for her. But she was committing the crime of child-murder when she died in the process so she is not entirely innocent - aborted children are. " Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute "
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats
/a/aaabortionstats.htm
You cry over one woman and rightly so. We have a million such reasons to cry - check it out, Ms. Morticia, if you dare:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages
/#galleries
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 5, 2005 10:16 AM
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I'm glad you wrote in, because you are "Exhibit A" in what women have been up against since the beginning of recorded history.
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» RE: Already seen those pix, Luis....
Posted by: LuisNolan
» RE: Already seen those pix, Luis....
Posted by: morticia
» P.S. Be careful who you call a "liberal"
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 5, 2005 1:09 PM
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» RE: And furthermore.....
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: And furthermore.....
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: DFrost on Dec 5, 2005 6:26 PM
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» Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: morticia
» You smooth operator!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: You smooth operator!
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Xanthippe on Dec 6, 2005 9:17 AM
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» A good effort.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: A good effort.
Posted by: morticia
» Not gonna fly, Mort
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Not gonna fly, Mort
Posted by: morticia
» RE: A good effort.
Posted by: Xanthippe
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 6, 2005 11:55 AM
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» RE: Thanks, Xanthippe....
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Thanks, Xanthippe....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Thanks, Xanthippe....
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Thanks, Xanthippe....
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Dec 1, 2005 1:15 AM
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» RE: Score!
Posted by: redstarwraith
» Bonehead...
Posted by: CLB
» Contradiction
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Score!
Posted by: kc4choice
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Posted by: ShaSpirit on Dec 1, 2005 1:35 AM
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Being a female who grew up in a time when our sex was not allowed to get angry, I do not know how to deal with some types of ambiguity and conflict it causes me to feel. There is healthy anger and then there is irrational anger. Example, a drug I take used to cost $4.95/30. Last year when Walgreens was supposed to be helping seniors this generic discount the drug when up to $43.79. It was listed at the lower price online also. I tried to tell them it was the wrong price, but their computer said otherwise. I became irrational and told them to keep their drugs, marched out of the store. I was in raged, but there was nothing I could do to change the price. I was shaking so hard, I hardly could put my key in the ignition.
I think, as this article points out, I have had no way to spend my anger about so many things this Bush&CO have done. I did not really make a lot of sense at the time, except it was not fair. How many times have we said it is not fair in the last five years? Now I get so angry to see or hear Bush say anything, so I do not listen to or watch him.
Abortion is the one thing the religious right can use to stir people up, since it has to do with sex. Self-righteous people use the same kind of rage to deal with abortion. They are little people in a country that uses sex to sell everything. What ever fears they were taught as children, still lives buried in their psyches. Bad women have sex for other reasons than making babies, therefore we must punish them for enjoying sex. This is not rational. It goes back over 1000 years of church teachings. Enjoying of sex is a mortal sin, as in witchcraft. People were killed for it.
Irrational people cannot deal with their own feelings, it is so much easier to project and judge others. They can feel self righteous and make someone's else's life miserable. They sure cannot deal with any ambiguity. Things are either white or black. There are no grays in their world.
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» RE: Article points out once again how hard it is to argue with non-thinking people
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: ChristopherL on Dec 1, 2005 3:54 AM
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» RE: Sexuality and Aggression
Posted by: triana1326
» RE: Sexuality and Aggression
Posted by: Lizka
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Posted by: bry1050 on Dec 1, 2005 4:09 AM
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» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: Greg
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: brasilaron
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: crachlis
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: bry1050
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: jp77
» And vote minorities out of the workplace, too!
Posted by: Bic Pentameter
» RE: And vote minorities out of the workplace, too!
Posted by: crachlis
» RE: what about the rest of us
Posted by: ajgreep
» Personally opposed
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 1, 2005 5:37 AM
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Yes, suburban VA has had a little of single of both sexes vote repug but not because of "abortion". Two major questions the Democrats can use to successfully frame the debate and both involve taking the "conservative" ideology and using it against them kind of like the way Kaine used the ideology against KILgore and won:
1. If you believe in "ownership society", why not extend that priviledge to women? After all, it's not that any of these women who are pursuing an "abortion" are doing it because they simply don't feel like having children.
2. Bush and his cronies in Congress and corporate America never need a permission slip to abort thousands to millions of lives year after year what with their destructive policies whether we're talking about the economy, the environment, foreign policy, etc ... so why force women to get a permission slip if they're truly unable to give birth to that child, most likely the result of rape or incest?
The day(s) more of us American people grow a real spine, the neocon movement will collapse and go down in flames.
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Posted by: mewithoutyou on Dec 1, 2005 5:48 AM
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» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: Dave04
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: Envi
» Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: Jasonix
» Certainly!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-life" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» Whoa there Mr. Stoney!
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» In short...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: In short... I agree whole heartedly!
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» Superlative. Open a drugstore.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Superlative. Open a drugstore.
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» My beef ain't with drugs.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I can relate
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: In short...
Posted by: jstillwater
» RE: Whoa there Mr. Stoney!
Posted by: aviendha36
» RE: Whoa there Mr. Stoney!
Posted by: Vyking
» RE: Hey, have you ever lived in a small town or many 100miles a way?
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: Tiko
» A couple of thoughts
Posted by: kc4choice
» Another bonehead.
Posted by: CLB
» My point is that cults, and cultist-like behavior, generally flies AGAINST personal choice.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Pharmacist judges
Posted by: duck-lady
» That's an awesome power you have.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: hhartman
» You hit the nail on the head.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: Envi
» RE: Aww, don't feel left out, there's also plenty of "pro-choice" hypocrisy to go around.
Posted by: tigtog
» RE: Thou shalt not kill?
Posted by: harpy
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: juanitoboy_34
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: bry1050
» RE: Death Penalty
Posted by: kwms
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jim on Dec 1, 2005 6:11 AM
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As one who participates in anti-war, anti-death penalty, and anti-abortion actions, I thought I could inform you that the motivation for each is the same. I believe that killing people is wrong. The "projection" that motivates being for life -- relating to war, the death penalty, or abortion -- is the simple moral command shared by many, "do onto others as you would have others do onto you."
Personally war arouses my emotions to motivate me to work against injustice more that abortion does.
But medically the unborn child is a separate individual human being from the mother. The issue is what human beings have value.
Anti-war people sometimes publish photos of people killed in war for the same reason anti-abortion people publish photos of children killed by abortion; it helps people realize the humanity of the victims.
If you are interested in this point of view, check the group Consistant Life. Their mission statement is "We are committed to the protection of life, which is threatened in today's world by war, abortion, poverty, racism, capital punishment and euthanasia. We believe that these issues are linked under a 'consistent ethic of life'. We challenge those working on all or some of these issues to maintain a cooperative spirit of peace, reconciliation, and respect in protecting the unprotected."
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» RE: Life ethic-you're wrong about the "medically seperate" bit
Posted by: rebeers01
» RE: Life ethic-you're wrong about the "medically seperate" bit
Posted by: ariessag
» RE: Consistant Life ethic
Posted by: operabuff
» RE: Consistant Life ethic
Posted by: CLB
» RE: The ethic of love
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» InConsistant Life ethic
Posted by: jwg
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Posted by: Dixie on Dec 1, 2005 7:21 AM
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» RE: Dixie
Posted by: kwms
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Posted by: just john on Dec 1, 2005 7:35 AM
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Y'know, a comprehensive list of specific incidents. (Bombings, killings, etc.)
Anybody have a link to one?
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» RE: I was hoping ...
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: I was hoping ...
Posted by: iamdazey
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Posted by: ddmffood on Dec 1, 2005 7:45 AM
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My maternal grandmother died of peritonitis caused by a botched abortion when my mother was 9 months old. The reasons for her choice have been lost over time; she was married and had one child. This left my mother to be raised by a succession of aunts, and then finally, by the Poor Clares in a convent. She never had a family per se, and the nun's ideas about discipline were draconian at best, and would be more than just a little illegal today.
She had no idea about how to be a mother. I was alternately neglected, pampered and beaten. I remember kneeling with a pencil under each knee for hours. When I played with fire, she lit the stove and held my tiny hands over the flames until they blistered.
I cannot know for sure, but I think my life would have been profoundly different had she been raised by a loving mother. Let's not go back there, to the days when a woman's body was not her own.
They are making it more difficult to obtain or learn about effective contraception, which cannot help but lead to even more unwanted pregnancies. It defies reason.
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» RE: Tragic results of back street abortion
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Tragic results of back street abortion
Posted by: Maryanne
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Posted by: rebeers01 on Dec 1, 2005 8:04 AM
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I am a women's health nurse who takes care of women who have second trimester abortions. The general public DOES NOT REALIZE the potential impacts of Alito and reversal of Roe v. Wade.
As a women's health nurse, I am mortified about what could happen if abortion became illegal again. As a woman, I am terrified. What if my IUD fails? I don't want children, period. I don't want to be forced to go through nine months of pregnancy, period. I guess I should just stop having sex...
Which is the whole point of the religious right. Men can keep having sex, they won't get pregnant. Women must bear the costs.
I love the "baby daddies" bit in the article. I'll start believing that the religious right really care about 'little babies' when they start supporting universal health care, fair distribution of wealth, the end of gender discrimination which lends to female and child poverty, and fair trade, which will give women the tools (money) they need in developing countries to feed their children.
Don't even get me started on the Global Gag Rule....
Thanks again for a great article, and thanks alternet for the space to have dialogue.
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» RE: hurray!
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: hurray!
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» Our bodies, our choices
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 1, 2005 8:20 AM
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1. An ideologically pure Democratic position on abortion rights.
2. Democrats winning national elections without the benefit of a major scandal like Watergate.
Winning a majority in the Electoral College requires the Democratic candidate to carry at least one borderline redneck state like Florida or Missouri.
If you want to peel away 5-plus percent of the NASCAR dad vote in 2008, you're going to have to give up a little of your ideological purity on abortion rights.
Stop insulting the intelligence and capacity for compassion of Southern evangelicals, and maybe another five percent of them will vote for your Presidential candidate in 2008.
Keep calling them unfeeling bigots who want to keep upper middle-class white coeds barefoot and pregnant, and your guy will not win in 2008 unless somebody catches a prominent Republican with a dead girl or a live boy.
The choice, pardon the pun, is yours.
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» Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: gerdhansel
» RE: Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: so is the first amendment
Posted by: ShaSpirit
» RE: Pandering to the rightwing didn't help Democrats
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 1, 2005 8:22 AM
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This was a courageous and provocative movie starring Robert Duvall and Faye Dunaway.
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» RE: "The Handmaid's Tale"- by Margaret Atwood
Posted by: rebeers01
» RE: "The Handmaid's Tale" becoming reality
Posted by: DFrost
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Posted by: Xanthippe on Dec 1, 2005 8:49 AM
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» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: db
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: fullavit@hotmail.com
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: iamdazey
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Arguing at cross-purposes
Posted by: iamdazey
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Posted by: db on Dec 1, 2005 8:55 AM
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6 1/2 months....he looked like a baby to me. What about looking at the science of when a foetus can sense pain? Is this a good ethical point to draw the line on having an abortion? Let us show our compassion and strength to being willing to investigate the truth, fearlessly.
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» Good thought.
Posted by: DFrost
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Posted by: lee slaughter on Dec 1, 2005 9:05 AM
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» RE: ms
Posted by: db
» RE: ms
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: ms
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: ms
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: ms
Posted by: Jim
» RE: ms
Posted by: Vyking
» RE: ms
Posted by: Jim
» RE: ms
Posted by: aviendha36
» RE: ms
Posted by: lee slaughter
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Posted by: believer on Dec 1, 2005 9:28 AM
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» RE: Believer
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Believer
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Believer
Posted by: threedfm
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Posted by: daniel1982 on Dec 1, 2005 9:45 AM
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Nor has it occurred to her that those women who get abortions suffer considerable anguish, that they are not sex-crazed degenerates who waltz into the stirrups whistling "Zip-A-Dee-Do-Da."
Except the ones that wear 'I had an abortion' t-shirts during rallies... they seem to be quite fine with it, even proud. Which brings me to my next point. Abortion is nothing to be proud of. If you're in the position where you're considering abortion it means you screwed up royally somewhere along the way(with the exception of rape victims). So smarten up.
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» RE: maybe
Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: maybe
Posted by: Vyking
» RE: maybe
Posted by: morticia
» Late term abortion
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: xenacat on Dec 1, 2005 10:11 AM
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» RE: pathologies running amok
Posted by: rickbwa
» RE: pathologies running amok
Posted by: BlueTigress
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 1, 2005 10:29 AM
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Enough time has passed that people's memories are getting fuzzy. A generation has grown up in an era of safe, legal abortion, with no real notion of the reality of the pre-Roe era, when women were separated from existing medical technology because of laws and ideology, and often died horribly because of it. Worse, there are "pro-life" historical revisionists extant nowadays who are saying that all those horror stories you hear about pre-Roe abortion--coat hangers, bleeding to death on motel room floors, being met by strange men and riding blindfolded in the back of a car--are a big exaggeration, mere propaganda. Those of us who were "there" need to testify loud and clear. And we say: Never Again!
Read more at:
http://www.motherjones.com
Look for an article from Sept./Oct 2004 called "The Way it Was." More reading: THE WORST OF TIMES, by Patricia G. Miller
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» RE: The Bad Old Days
Posted by: liberalibrarian
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Posted by: esactun on Dec 1, 2005 11:52 AM
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Don't like abortion? Don't have one! Lots of people, including the alleged patriots in Washington, have a fundamental misunderstanding of freedom. Only allowing others do do what fails to offend YOU is NOT freedom, ferchrissakes!
The poster who (unintentionally, it seems) echoed right-wing propaganda above--ie that needing an abortion is a sure sign "you've screwed up royally" (!)-- should learn about a nasty little reality known as "contraceptive failure."
Ok, that was three points. Sorry.
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» RE: two points
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: two points
Posted by: morticia
» RE: two points
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: two points
Posted by: morticia
» RE: two points
Posted by: Vyking
Comments are closed-
Posted by: esactun on Dec 1, 2005 11:58 AM
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Do ALL women feel this way? No. But you can't claim that none do, or that it's wrong to feel that way--any more than right-wingers can claim that all women feel this anguish, and that NOT feeling it is wrong.
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Posted by: harpy on Dec 1, 2005 12:49 PM
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Posted by: Numinous on Dec 1, 2005 1:29 PM
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» RE: Anti-choice, Anti-pleasure
Posted by: churchofone
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 1, 2005 1:31 PM
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Posted by: zentao on Dec 1, 2005 1:42 PM
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This test is meant to illustrate how our enemy can so often look just like us, only holier. Profile these assholes:
1. In June of 1964 three civil rights workers in Mississippi were gunned down and buried in a ditch that had been dug out earlier, specifically to rest their rotting corpses, by a group of
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50 (the man most recently tried in this case, Edgar Killen, was 38 and an ordained Baptist minister at the time that he conspired to murder the men)
2. From 1976 to 1983 as many as 30,000 were killed and tortured in Argentina; many of those who disappeared were disemboweled and thrown from airplanes into the ocean; others were killed and buried in mass graves. These atrocities were committed by
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50 (during the “Dirty War”. Look it up)
3. Tony Alamo was charged with felony child abuse for his involvement in the beating in 1988 of an 11-year-old boy that was so severe it left him unable to sit for almost three weeks. Alamo was a leader of a religious sect in California, and a
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremist between the ages of 17 and 50 (spank them into submission, that always works. Especially for the Christian father that in January of this year beat his son to death trying to “box” with him because he was afraid his son was going to turn out gay)
4. Paul Hill was the first person executed in the US for anti-abortion violence, after he was convicted of the 1994 slayings of Dr. John Britton and his bodyguard. Hill was a
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremist between the ages of 17 and 50 (and was also a former Presbyterian minister—double trouble! Thank you so much for helping rid the world of those pesky doctors.)
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Posted by: zentao on Dec 1, 2005 1:43 PM
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a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50 (we all remember Mr. McVeigh and Terry Nichols)
6. In 1998 Matthew Shepard was beaten and left for dead by two men. He was found the next day, alive but never regaining consciousness due to his catastrophic brain damage. He had been pistol-whipped 18 times with a revolver. Since being imprisoned, his murderers have both justified their actions by claiming that they were dictated by the Bible. His murderers are shining examples of misguided
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremists between the ages of 17 and 40 (in quite possibly my favorite example of Christian hate-mongering, Reverend Fred Phelps and his supporters picketed Shepard’s funeral, displaying signs with slogans such as “Matt Shepard rots in Hell” and “God Hates Fags.”)
7. In January of 1998 a bomb was detonated in a Birmingham, Alabama women’s clinic. The blast killed one and left over a hundred injured. The man found to be responsible for this heinous crime was also found to be responsible for a blast during the 1996 Olympics that killed a woman and injured 100, as well as an attack on a gay nightclub. The bomber, Eric Rudolph was a
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40 (Rudolph wrote a statement during his trial that included frequent quotes from the Bible and condemnations of homosexuality)
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Posted by: zentao on Dec 1, 2005 1:43 PM
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a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremist between the ages of 17 and 40 (at his Pennsylvania home, his truck bears a license plate with the word Jesus and a picture of a cross. Even more ironic is the stone in the garden painted with a Bible verse from the book of Hosea “Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love…” (10:12))
9. Proving there are always new ways to shake things up, pharmacists all over the country are now refusing women’s prescriptions for birth control and the morning-after pill. Some of these pharmacists are so adamant about forcing their morality upon others that they hold the prescription hostage and will not transfer it to a doctor willing to fill it. The pharmacists who are imposing restrictions on these women’s reproductive rights claim that their religious views do not allow them to fill such prescriptions. Who the fuck thinks they can do this?
a. Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 50
b. Christian extremists between the ages of 17 and 50 (there have reportedly been cases of pharmacists who mistakenly believe that contraception is a form of abortion and refuse to dispense it to anyone, or who will only provide birth-control pills to a woman if she is married. Find a new job asshole!)
You know I just can’t even keep doing this. Your moral exhibitionism makes me sick. So I propose that we begin to profile a new group of dangerous people—conservative, right wing, proselytizing Christians with every intention of homogenizing the globe, who don’t know shit about Jesus. Amen brother.
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» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: crachlis
» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: juanitoboy_34
» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: juanitoboy_34
» RE: Terroists for God! Continued
Posted by: morticia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sydmil on Dec 1, 2005 1:48 PM
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Seriously though, it is beyond me that people don’t realize that medical / surgical abortions represent major progress in the human society. Abortions are a part of life and if some fanatics think that they can fight war against abortions then we already know what results to expect looking at the success of the drug war. I like the author’s closing paragraph:
"The choice to abort an unborn child is, without a doubt, a modern tragedy. Forcing poor women to seek out illegal practitioners is a medieval one"
amen
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 1, 2005 2:37 PM
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Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 1, 2005 2:54 PM
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No matter who the Democratic candidate is in 2008, they will have to win at least three of these four swing states to obtain a majority in the Electoral College.
It isn’t about being right, wrong, fair or ideologically pure. It’s about winning national elections. All other politics is local.
Don’t knock bait-and-switch politics. It’s been working just fine for the Republicans. The ultimate bait-and-switch at the national level is the Karl Rove tactic of talking about "values" to Southern Evangelicals so they’ll vote against their economic self-interests.
This is the "God, Guns and Gays" strategy that keeps the corporate lackeys in power. Economic populists like John Edwards are on the right track: hammer home the idea that corporate dominance of the country and the political system by Wal-Mart and Exxon is bad for Mom and Pop, bad for bread-and-butter issues.
If Democrats like Edwards can find common cause with just five percent more of these NASCAR dads, they might even swing a couple of Southern states' Electoral votes into the Democratic column.
But if party extremists keep hammering away on divisive issues like abortion, gay marriage, gun control and global warming, the rednecks will turn a deaf ear to any message about economic populism.
Clinton was right on this issue -- it's the economy, stupid. Stick to pocketbook issues like battling union-busting corporations and right-to-work laws in states like Oklahoma and Nevada, and you may peel away enough of these redneck voters to win back the Presidency without a scandal in your hip pocket.
If the right keeps winning national elections with the "God, Guns and Gays" bait-and-switch, trust me, they will eventually move all federal courts to the right, and the filibuster won't save you.
Win national elections, repeat after me, win national elections.
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» Yes, US politics has become a war. The only way to stop this war is to win it.
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: Cheech on Dec 1, 2005 7:10 PM
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Thank you especially though for this observation:
"It should come as no surprise that the anti-choice movement is ascendant at the moment. The Bush era has marked, above all, a dramatic shift away from the tragic complexity of the world. Instead, the citizens of this country have been encouraged to indulge their most childish impulses: rage, hypocrisy, self-absorption."
That's exactly what these people are selling! I've been confounded by why seemingly sentient people have supported Bush against their own real-world interests. It's the allure of this carefree frat-boy fantasy. Who cares if you can't pay your bills? Here's a self indulgent utopia for closet sado-masochists. [Which is what all religious fanatics are in their hearts after all, with all that bipolar cycling between self-rightous rage and groveling self flagelation.] They're all sucking on blue velvet while us dumb leftists worry about our fellow man struggling in a hell of starvation, torture, toxic flood waters and white phosphorous. We could relieve ourselves of this burden of conscience and embrace the Republican frat-boy philosophy: "God belongs to me; I'm not responsible - even for myself; The law only applies to my inferiors; Only I deserve a free lunch; ""Not all poor people are murderers""; Mommy will make Daddy clean up yet another of my messes by throwing money around"; etc.
This explains a lot. Thanks for the epiphany.
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Posted by: CLB on Dec 1, 2005 8:23 PM
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Posted by: ShaSpirit on Dec 1, 2005 9:56 PM
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There is a great book that has been read in a lot in New Age study groups. It is called the "Celestine Prophecy." It talks of such things and the reasons we have children and the responsibility that it entails. It take a whole village to raise a child. Children are supposed to be loved and supported. I do not think you have to be a Christian to read this book, for it is a good read that seems very autobiographical. Like everything in the book really happened.
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» RE: the soul that adopts you as a parent will return when you are ready
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: the soul that adopts you as a parent will return when you are ready
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: JesseBC on Dec 1, 2005 11:59 PM
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» RE: Not the boy I'd want my sister dating
Posted by: Xanthippe
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Posted by: jdonovan on Dec 2, 2005 1:27 AM
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Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! AAAAaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhh!
Ok, so I'm a 21-year-old guy and I'm almost definitely more left-wing than any of you. I have absolutely no moral qualms about any kind of consensual sex for recreation. I don't belive in God. And I don't believe that the government should restrict the rights of those born in America for the sake of those unborn in America. I'm definitely pro-choice.
Fine. Okay.
But let's take a step back. What is the point of this kind of argument?! Are you guys listening to yourselves? This kind of article achieves only two things: It pisses off just about everybody who disagrees with it, and it encourages those who do agree with it to be more closed-minded about the issue. I guarantee you, not one person in the world read this article and said, "Wow! I have been projecting my lamentations about the world on unborn non-persons this whole time! Okay, let's kill them now."
Pro-life, pro-choice, anti-life, anti-choice...all this wordplay and arguing comes down to one question, and it has nothing to do with projection or blame or politics. When does life begin? Does it begin at birth? Does it begin at conception? Are you throwing away babies when you beat off into a tissue?
Of course no one is satisfied with the actual answer: Life begins when lightning strikes the organic, molten surface of a primordial planet where the conditions are just right. Humans are quite capable of destroying life, but even cutting-edge chemists and roboticists have thus far failed to create it. "Yes, but...." Uh-huh. I told you you wouldn't be satisfied.
So go ahead. Talk about how God couldn't possibly dole out souls before an embryo has reached the stage where it can't divide into twins anymore. Talk about how the government's job is to bolster its citizens' quality of life, not their sheer number. Talk about how an aborted fetus might have become a doctor that saved millions. Say the same thing about a teen mother. Argue about freaking abortion! STOP ATTACKING EACH OTHER! I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING!
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» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Pardon me while I scream...
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: owleyes on Dec 2, 2005 10:00 AM
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» RE: why deign to honor the archetype
Posted by: owleyes
» RE: why deign to honor the archetype
Posted by: churchofone
» RE: why deign to honor the archetype
Posted by: owleyes
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Posted by: threedfm on Dec 2, 2005 12:27 PM
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The gov. shouldn't be in a persons privat life . thats between a woman and her GOD she alone has to answer to him and he alone will do the judging . God will judge every one connected . Right or worng we all will answer to him .
Maybe Hillter's mother mother should have had an abortion !!!!!!!
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» RE: Killers are Killers
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Killers are Killers
Posted by: liberalibrarian
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Posted by: sneakysnake on Dec 2, 2005 9:18 PM
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And I agree with others that until "pro-lifers" are more willing to take serious responsibility for all the lives they "save" by ending abortion, we can't end it.
I mean, is the point just creating cannon and prison fodder?
Sometimes I wonder.
Read Derrick Jensen's "The Culture of Make Believe" for some fascinating discussion of related issues.
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Posted by: Jbuuty on Dec 3, 2005 7:58 AM
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As the article progresses the writer gives up on analysis and continues with primarily name-calling. This is roughly a similar methodology to Bill O'Reilly (though O'Reilly never attempts analysis - straight to name-calling). When the left lowers itself to promoting falsehoods and name-calling, such as Almond does in this column, there is very little difference between the left and the extreme right.
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Posted by: Jeffersonista on Dec 3, 2005 9:35 AM
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Posted by: nomad5020 on Dec 3, 2005 6:23 PM
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The other side of this is the reality view. People are raped, get drunk, have sex, are atheist, and understand that people are very different and should be accepted for being this way. The only problem is that the former view dominates for multiple reasons. The major one is that it is easier to make people fear something than to accept something.
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Posted by: ronavila on Dec 4, 2005 6:03 AM
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Posted by: jainist on Dec 4, 2005 3:34 PM
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Posted by: jonny_noog on Dec 4, 2005 4:53 PM
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a) These religions were created to serve the interests of men (heads of government, industry and religion), who need servants, soldiers and now consumers.
b) The same kinds of men need every weapon at their disposal in order to keep women in their place, at home performing unpaid labour that keeps our current dominant social system running. All this "respect for life" propaganda is just how those in power sell the idea to their public. No Child Left Behind? Crap. Ask your self if they (presently defining "they" as heads of government, industry and religion) really respected life would they be forgetting about those precious babies nearly the minute they are born?
c) My personal theory is that Christians/Catholics (and let's face it, the only real difference between Christians and Catholics is the geographically differing power bases that each branch evolved to serve even if they themselves think the differences are more than that) due to their obsession with the concept of "sin" (which in its self is simply another means for the elite to control the masses) have it in their heads that the only truly innocent in this world are in fact those who have not been sullied by the inherent sin that this world infects a new life with shortly after birth. e.g., The child starts to talk back... Perhaps the child does not accept that he is a worthless sinner and only with total fealty to the almighty church can he be saved.
Therefore, in true illogical brainwashed style, the Christian fights to the death for the right of a "true innocent" to live... Up to the point when that life is no longer a "true innocent" e.g., when that life actually becomes a person and can think for its self. Once this happens, the Christian is no longer interested in saving what has become an imperfect and sinful human being and moves on to the next mass of cells that can be classified as a "true innocent".
This motivating process is all on an unconcious level of their mind of course, as are most motivations of people who fear more than anything else to face reality and what's written on their own soul. Easier for them to preach love and forgiveness while they hypocritically practice nither. Ask them though and they'll kill you before they even consider the possibility their motivations are not pure and loving
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» RE: Could not agree more with this article
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: aphillips on Dec 4, 2005 5:03 PM
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Posted by: LuisNolan on Dec 4, 2005 10:03 PM
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You continue with "And because I'd like to understand why a virtual stranger would accuse me of being a baby killer." when you have just accused, in your subtitle, a huge portion of the country that has pro-life values of being killers. Finally you say "This is one of the hallmarks of the Right in this country: an abject refusal to face their own rage." when liberals constantly talk about their own "rage" in sites like this: http://liberalrage.livejournal.com/ and liberal rage is evident even at major events like the 2004 Hollywood fundraiser where the Democrat Party would not release the video because of the disgusting behavior it depicted:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/14/fundraiser.flap/
You might take a hint from Robet Burns' lines:
"O wad some Power the giftie gie us / To see oursels as ithers see us!" (poem: "To a Louse") and see if your own criticism fits you first before applying it to another.
No one is so full of rage as he/she who sins against God. Separation from God is called Hell. It is not a place but a state of existence. Violation of God's commandments is called "Hell on Earth". The person who can destroy a developing human life because he/she (never an "it") is inconvenient is surely in Hell. Sex is part of a continuum which involves marriage, children, and above all love.
Those who artificially try to stop the sex contimuum at orgasm end up committing the crime of abortion and the greater crime of blinding yourselves to the humanity of an unborn child. That blindness is the civil rights crime of STAGISM = discrimination based on stage of biological development and it is equal in evil to the blindness called RACISM = discrimination based on race, skin color, and facial features. I was once a "fetus" and I claim that stage of development as my own - I was fully human in spirit though not in form. And no one can take away my Right to Life. It may be legal now but it is immoral in terms of humanity.
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» RE: Complete inability to see yourself.
Posted by: Rowaninfinity
» RE: Complete inability to see yourself.
Posted by: ronavila
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 4, 2005 10:43 PM
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http://www.sapphireblue.com/25years/
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Posted by: LuisNolan on Dec 5, 2005 8:25 AM
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Yes, that woman's death was a tragedy and it was hell-on-earth for her. But she was committing the crime of child-murder when she died in the process so she is not entirely innocent - aborted children are. " Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute "
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats
/a/aaabortionstats.htm
You cry over one woman and rightly so. We have a million such reasons to cry - check it out, Ms. Morticia, if you dare:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages
/#galleries
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 5, 2005 10:16 AM
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I'm glad you wrote in, because you are "Exhibit A" in what women have been up against since the beginning of recorded history.
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» RE: Already seen those pix, Luis....
Posted by: LuisNolan
» RE: Already seen those pix, Luis....
Posted by: morticia
» P.S. Be careful who you call a "liberal"
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 5, 2005 1:09 PM
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» RE: And furthermore.....
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: And furthermore.....
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: DFrost on Dec 5, 2005 6:26 PM
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» Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Prissy obfuscation...
Posted by: morticia
» You smooth operator!
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: You smooth operator!
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: Xanthippe on Dec 6, 2005 9:17 AM
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» A good effort.
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: A good effort.
Posted by: morticia
» Not gonna fly, Mort
Posted by: DFrost
» RE: Not gonna fly, Mort
Posted by: morticia
» RE: A good effort.
Posted by: Xanthippe
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 6, 2005 11:55 AM
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» RE: Thanks, Xanthippe....
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Thanks, Xanthippe....
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Thanks, Xanthippe....
Posted by: Xanthippe
» RE: Thanks, Xanthippe....
Posted by: morticia
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