COMMENTS: 36
Why Torture Doesn't Work
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No one has yet offered any validated evidence that torture produces reliable intelligence. While torture apologists frequently make the claim that torture saves lives, that assertion is directly contradicted by many Army, FBI, and CIA professionals who have actually interrogated al Qaeda captives. Exhibit A is the torture-extracted confession of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an al Qaeda captive who told the CIA in 2001, having been "rendered" to the tender mercies of Egypt, that Saddam Hussein had trained al Qaeda to use WMD. It appears that this confession was the only information upon which, in late 2002, the president, the vice president, and the secretary of state repeatedly claimed that "credible evidence" supported that claim, even though a now-declassified Defense Intelligence Agency report from February 2002 questioned the reliability of the confession because it was likely obtained under torture. In January 2004, al-Libi recanted his "confession," and a month later, the CIA recalled all intelligence reports based on his statements.
Exhibit B is the case of Manadel al-Jamadi, an Iraqi deemed a "high-value" target by the CIA. After being beaten to an extent that he had several broken ribs, he was subjected to a form of crucifixion known as "Palestinian hanging." Forty-five minutes later, he was dead, never having revealed whatever vital, ticking-bomb information his American interrogator was seeking.
If there is reliable evidence that torture has, in fact, interrupted ticking time bombs and saved lives, the gravity of the crisis created by the administration's free-wheeling torture policy demands straight answers which can be weighed and evaluated by a bipartisan, blue-ribbon commission whose membership might include interrogators, jurists, theologians, national security specialists, military leaders, and political leaders. The damage to our national interests and the dismal record of war candor by this administration has made "trust us" an insufficient justification for such a profound change in American law and moral values.
The Journal claims that Abu Ghraib was an anomaly -- that it has become a "torture narrative" that erroneously blames the CIA for the abuses depicted in the infamous photographs. The Schlesinger report was cited for the conclusion that the perpetrators were merely a group of sadistic, poorly trained Reservists. This argument, however begs the question; the rationale for the McCain amendment rests not upon Abu Ghraib, but upon the cascading stream of documented reports from other places in Afghanistan and Iraq in which brutal torture has been either authorized or winked at by several different military and civilian chains of command.
The Journal further distorts the facts by arguing that techniques such as waterboarding (which induces the sensation of drowning), leaving prisoners outdoors in freezing weather, and stress positions which can cause suffocation and collapse, are not really "torture," but are just "psychological techniques designed to break a detainee." There is, certainly, a psychological component to torture, but the real issue is whether what's done causes severe physical or mental pain or suffering. Of the crucifixion form of "psychological" pressure which the CIA worked upon Jamadi, one of the soldiers who cut him down said he had never seen anyone's arms positioned like that; "[I] was surprised they didn't just pop out of their sockets."
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has endorsed the McCain amendments, and declared, "In the face of this perilous climate, our nation must not embrace a morality based on an attitude that 'desperate times call for desperate measures.' There can be no compromise on the moral imperative to protect the basic human rights of any individual incarcerated for any reason." Our embrace of torture is completely inconsistent with our commitment to equal justice and the rule of law.
The Journal assumes that only the worst of the worst will be subjected to torture when it comes to ticking time bombs. Not only is that assumption unfounded, based upon the widespread abuses in Iraq, it was tried and abandoned by the Israelis. Because it is impossible to confirm with advance certainty what any suspect actually knows, ticking bomb torture can be justified in virtually every interrogation. When Israel experimented with "torture lite," supposedly reserved for ticking-bomb circumstances, it was not long before 85 percent of all Palestinian detainees were being given the harshest treatment allowed. The capability to finely calibrate torture has eluded every democratic government which has tried it.
The inescapable fact is that America's standing in the world, and especially in the Middle East, has never been lower. The price we have paid for our misdirected torture policies has been incalculable. The Arab street may not always grasp the finer points of separation of powers or proportional representation; but everyone, everywhere, comprehends hypocrisy, and judges us for ours. If the torture advocates truly believe that the value of violently coerced information has been worth the plummeting drop in America's world stature, or that such information is worth the clear and present endangerment of captured Americans, it's time to justify the claimed value of torture to the nation in whose name it's being done. Not assumptions, not generalizations, not, "I can't explain because it's classified."
The president and vice president wish to chart a course of heretofore unacceptable savagery toward anyone even suspected of terrorism. If we are to become a nation where a president may torture anyone he wishes, it deserves a broad, sober, fact-based national debate.
Learn more and help to make sure torture never again happens in America's name by visiting Human Rights First's campaign to End Torture.
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Posted by: qrswave on Nov 22, 2005 8:07 AM
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You'd either spit in their face, or tell them anything they'll believe!!!
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» RE: Of course, torture doesn't work!!!
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: Of course, torture doesn't work!!!
Posted by: huston3
» RE: Of course, torture doesn't work!!!
Posted by: cacky
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Posted by: Wacre on Nov 22, 2005 9:00 AM
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I suspect that many Americans don't as well, which would explain a lot about some of the problems that we face today and why a current standing president can talk about imposing martial law --he was, I believe, referring to an outbreak of Asian flu--and have virtually no one blink an eye.
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Posted by: chaoslegs on Nov 22, 2005 9:04 AM
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It isn't like they couldn't find jobs with Heritage, American Enterprise, Manhattan, etc..
Oh, and get them off PBS.
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» RE: Time for an overhaul at Wall Street Journal Editorial section
Posted by: stoney13
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Posted by: Colin on Nov 22, 2005 9:18 AM
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Craig was the former British Embassador to Uzbekistan - a country recently used by both US and GB to outsource torture - and should be respected for the position he has taken. Last year (the year before), Craig informed the British Government (and the British people) that Uzbekistan - a country both the US and Britain were dealing with at the time - was run, basically, by a brutal torturing bastard. Clearly I'm paraphrasing but the message from the Tony Blair and, probably more so, Jack Straw (Foreign Secretary) was fairly succinct - YOU'RE FIRED!
Anyway, given his knowledge of the area (which, considering how closed off Uzbekistan is, is second to not very many), he's been quite prolific on the activist front, making people aware of exactly what President Karimov and his regime get up to.
So, Craig Murray on torture:
Uzbekistan is one of those security services from whose “friendly liaison” services we obtained information. And I will tell you what torture means. It means the woman who was raped with a broken bottle in both vagina and anus, and who died after ten days of agony. It means the old man suspended by wrist shackles from the ceiling while his children were beaten to a pulp before his eyes. It means the man whose fingernails were pulled before his face was beaten and he was immersed to his armpits in boiling liquid. It means the eighteen year old whose knees and elbows were smashed, his hand immersed in boiling liquid until the skin came away and the flesh started to peel from the bone, before the back of his skull was stove in.
If you want to read the full article see here .
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» RE: Defining torture
Posted by: huston3
» RE: Defining torture
Posted by: cacky
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Posted by: rsonin on Nov 22, 2005 9:19 AM
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(1) Torture is indeed effective, depending on what you wish to achieve.
Disinformation: Torture produces unreliable intelligence, but is reliable in producing false confesions of whatever the torturer wants confessed. Recall the famous quote by a White House Official about the "reality based community": "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality". If your interest is not in truth but in justification, and the truth of the information you need is irrelevant, then torture is an effective tool in creating your own reality. Torture is infamously used by dictators to reshape history by generating evidence of conspiracies and treason. Torture works the same way in regular law enforcement, where the beating of suspects is one means of closing cases.
Terrorism: Torture also has a use as a means of terrorizing a population into submission to harsh rule. Whatever oppression exists in a tyranny, it is better than what goes on in ministerial basements and the forest outside town. That fear can become associated with entire ideologies, leading to a kind of political superstition.
(2) Torture is entirely inconsistent with ostensible American values, though Americans are no strangers to it. From hazing to police beatings to lynchings to training torturers for foreign regimes, Americans are aware of needless cruelty on the part of authorities. So, it may not be consistent with stated American values, but it is a persistent feature of American life. This raises the question of how far outside American values torture really is, at least for some Americans.
(3) Torture never serves national interests, but it can serve the interests of the torturers. If the Bush administration can torture to elicit confessions of terrorist plots that justify that torture, other torture, and its general policy of violence, disinformation, secrecy, and surveillance, then it serves their interests, and the national interest be damned.
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 22, 2005 11:16 AM
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THEY READ IT TO YOU.
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Posted by: ScottP on Nov 22, 2005 11:16 AM
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Posted by: stoney13 on Nov 22, 2005 11:57 AM
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» RE: All these beatiful trees! Shot to hell! Oops I said Times
Posted by: stoney13
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Posted by: decembrist on Nov 22, 2005 12:10 PM
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The memo is a transcribed conversation between Bush and Blair, Bush wanting to bomb Aljazeera headquarters in Qatar, and Blair talking him out of it.
Aljazeera is like CNN, or the BBC in the Arab world. Reports that they actively aid al-qaeda are false, they're journalists who report on issues relating to the Arab world.
Here's a link
Story via common dreams news site
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» Link @ Aljazeera
Posted by: decembrist
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Posted by: Chris420 on Nov 22, 2005 3:51 PM
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Here's the description of waterboarding from the Wikipedia...
"The current practice of waterboarding was known previously as 'the water cure.' It involves tying the victim to a board with the head lower than the feet so that he or she is unable to move. A piece of cloth is held tightly over the face, and water is poured onto the cloth. Breathing is extremely difficult and the victim will be in imminent fear of death by asphyxiation. However, it is relatively difficult to aspirate a large amount of water since the lungs are higher than the mouth, and the victim is unlikely to actually expire if this is done by skilled torturers."
If you follow the link for "the water cure," here's what you get...
"Water cure is a form of torture. In one variation, the subject is tied or held down in a chair and with his face covered with a cloth, water is poured over his face. The subject feels like he is drowning and this is done to encourage the subject to talk. Another variation is to pour water down the throat of the subject being careful not to drown the subject but to make the subject feel the sensation of drowning."
Finally, from everything2.com, here's a description of something called the Spanish Water Torture...
"Sometimes called the Toca, this was another favorite of the Spanish Inquisition. The victim was tied to a rack that swiveled in the middle so that the head could be placed lower than the feet. The prisoner's head was strapped in place with an iron band, and his nose was sealed shut. A thick piece of cloth was stuffed into his mouth, and a steady stream of water was poured onto the cloth. The effect combined drowning and suffocation, all while the victim remained conscious and aware."
Torture...helping true believers root out evildoers since 1484.
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» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: Chris420
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: Chris420
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: stoney13
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: Freon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mim on Nov 26, 2005 6:58 AM
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Newsweek recently noted that torture doesn't work in real life, only in movies and TV shows like "24." So this Thanksgiving when the conversation turned to TV I asked my teenage nephew about "24." He said it's about a special agent who goes about on various assignments, including torturing terrorists to extract life-saving information.
Another relative said that today torture is necessary, and when I said that those who are being tortured say whatever they think will stop the pain, she looked skeptical.
What concerned me is that Peter Steinfels, the religion columnist in the NY Times, wrote a while back that in our popular storytelling, heroes may kill, but only villains torture. That was true in a kinder, gentler time, but now heroes torture.
FWIW, "24" is shown on Fox.
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» RE: How people think of torture
Posted by: rnagisetty
» RE: How people think of torture
Posted by: mim
» RE: How people think of torture
Posted by: huston3
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Posted by: rdsanchez1966 on Nov 26, 2005 7:33 AM
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If American POW's have vital information vital to their war effort why not use torture? If torturing an American POW saves one Chinese, N. Korean, Iranian or Syrian life by all means go for it. THis is the logic the neo-cons are selling and sadly too many Americans are buying. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If they really believe this then they can't turn around and cry about Intenational Law and other such out dated legalities.
Of course I am missing the bigger picture. Those that are most likely to be tortured are going to be non-white and non-Christian. This is the unspoken but not unknown aspect of this whole debate. It is for this reason we will lose the support of the Arab Islamic world and much of the Third World.
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» RE: Sauce for the Goose.....
Posted by: alport
» RE: Sauce for the Goose.....
Posted by: huston3
» RE: Sauce for the Goose.....
Posted by: rdsanchez1966
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Posted by: remember vietnam? on Nov 28, 2005 11:50 PM
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remember the swift boats guys and their ilk. they cant admit what they did and what they saw as NEEDED to be done in vietnam.
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Posted by: pjohnq on Oct 3, 2006 6:21 AM
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Posted by: pjohnq on Oct 3, 2006 6:22 AM
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Posted by: qrswave on Nov 22, 2005 8:07 AM
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You'd either spit in their face, or tell them anything they'll believe!!!
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» RE: Of course, torture doesn't work!!!
Posted by: Wacre
» RE: Of course, torture doesn't work!!!
Posted by: huston3
» RE: Of course, torture doesn't work!!!
Posted by: cacky
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Posted by: Wacre on Nov 22, 2005 9:00 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suspect that many Americans don't as well, which would explain a lot about some of the problems that we face today and why a current standing president can talk about imposing martial law --he was, I believe, referring to an outbreak of Asian flu--and have virtually no one blink an eye.
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Posted by: chaoslegs on Nov 22, 2005 9:04 AM
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It isn't like they couldn't find jobs with Heritage, American Enterprise, Manhattan, etc..
Oh, and get them off PBS.
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» RE: Time for an overhaul at Wall Street Journal Editorial section
Posted by: stoney13
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Colin on Nov 22, 2005 9:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Craig was the former British Embassador to Uzbekistan - a country recently used by both US and GB to outsource torture - and should be respected for the position he has taken. Last year (the year before), Craig informed the British Government (and the British people) that Uzbekistan - a country both the US and Britain were dealing with at the time - was run, basically, by a brutal torturing bastard. Clearly I'm paraphrasing but the message from the Tony Blair and, probably more so, Jack Straw (Foreign Secretary) was fairly succinct - YOU'RE FIRED!
Anyway, given his knowledge of the area (which, considering how closed off Uzbekistan is, is second to not very many), he's been quite prolific on the activist front, making people aware of exactly what President Karimov and his regime get up to.
So, Craig Murray on torture:
Uzbekistan is one of those security services from whose “friendly liaison” services we obtained information. And I will tell you what torture means. It means the woman who was raped with a broken bottle in both vagina and anus, and who died after ten days of agony. It means the old man suspended by wrist shackles from the ceiling while his children were beaten to a pulp before his eyes. It means the man whose fingernails were pulled before his face was beaten and he was immersed to his armpits in boiling liquid. It means the eighteen year old whose knees and elbows were smashed, his hand immersed in boiling liquid until the skin came away and the flesh started to peel from the bone, before the back of his skull was stove in.
If you want to read the full article see here .
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» RE: Defining torture
Posted by: huston3
» RE: Defining torture
Posted by: cacky
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rsonin on Nov 22, 2005 9:19 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(1) Torture is indeed effective, depending on what you wish to achieve.
Disinformation: Torture produces unreliable intelligence, but is reliable in producing false confesions of whatever the torturer wants confessed. Recall the famous quote by a White House Official about the "reality based community": "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality". If your interest is not in truth but in justification, and the truth of the information you need is irrelevant, then torture is an effective tool in creating your own reality. Torture is infamously used by dictators to reshape history by generating evidence of conspiracies and treason. Torture works the same way in regular law enforcement, where the beating of suspects is one means of closing cases.
Terrorism: Torture also has a use as a means of terrorizing a population into submission to harsh rule. Whatever oppression exists in a tyranny, it is better than what goes on in ministerial basements and the forest outside town. That fear can become associated with entire ideologies, leading to a kind of political superstition.
(2) Torture is entirely inconsistent with ostensible American values, though Americans are no strangers to it. From hazing to police beatings to lynchings to training torturers for foreign regimes, Americans are aware of needless cruelty on the part of authorities. So, it may not be consistent with stated American values, but it is a persistent feature of American life. This raises the question of how far outside American values torture really is, at least for some Americans.
(3) Torture never serves national interests, but it can serve the interests of the torturers. If the Bush administration can torture to elicit confessions of terrorist plots that justify that torture, other torture, and its general policy of violence, disinformation, secrecy, and surveillance, then it serves their interests, and the national interest be damned.
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 22, 2005 11:16 AM
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THEY READ IT TO YOU.
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Posted by: ScottP on Nov 22, 2005 11:16 AM
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Posted by: stoney13 on Nov 22, 2005 11:57 AM
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» RE: All these beatiful trees! Shot to hell! Oops I said Times
Posted by: stoney13
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Posted by: decembrist on Nov 22, 2005 12:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The memo is a transcribed conversation between Bush and Blair, Bush wanting to bomb Aljazeera headquarters in Qatar, and Blair talking him out of it.
Aljazeera is like CNN, or the BBC in the Arab world. Reports that they actively aid al-qaeda are false, they're journalists who report on issues relating to the Arab world.
Here's a link
Story via common dreams news site
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Link @ Aljazeera
Posted by: decembrist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Chris420 on Nov 22, 2005 3:51 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's the description of waterboarding from the Wikipedia...
"The current practice of waterboarding was known previously as 'the water cure.' It involves tying the victim to a board with the head lower than the feet so that he or she is unable to move. A piece of cloth is held tightly over the face, and water is poured onto the cloth. Breathing is extremely difficult and the victim will be in imminent fear of death by asphyxiation. However, it is relatively difficult to aspirate a large amount of water since the lungs are higher than the mouth, and the victim is unlikely to actually expire if this is done by skilled torturers."
If you follow the link for "the water cure," here's what you get...
"Water cure is a form of torture. In one variation, the subject is tied or held down in a chair and with his face covered with a cloth, water is poured over his face. The subject feels like he is drowning and this is done to encourage the subject to talk. Another variation is to pour water down the throat of the subject being careful not to drown the subject but to make the subject feel the sensation of drowning."
Finally, from everything2.com, here's a description of something called the Spanish Water Torture...
"Sometimes called the Toca, this was another favorite of the Spanish Inquisition. The victim was tied to a rack that swiveled in the middle so that the head could be placed lower than the feet. The prisoner's head was strapped in place with an iron band, and his nose was sealed shut. A thick piece of cloth was stuffed into his mouth, and a steady stream of water was poured onto the cloth. The effect combined drowning and suffocation, all while the victim remained conscious and aware."
Torture...helping true believers root out evildoers since 1484.
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» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: Chris420
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: Chris420
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: stoney13
» RE: About Waterboarding
Posted by: Freon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mim on Nov 26, 2005 6:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Newsweek recently noted that torture doesn't work in real life, only in movies and TV shows like "24." So this Thanksgiving when the conversation turned to TV I asked my teenage nephew about "24." He said it's about a special agent who goes about on various assignments, including torturing terrorists to extract life-saving information.
Another relative said that today torture is necessary, and when I said that those who are being tortured say whatever they think will stop the pain, she looked skeptical.
What concerned me is that Peter Steinfels, the religion columnist in the NY Times, wrote a while back that in our popular storytelling, heroes may kill, but only villains torture. That was true in a kinder, gentler time, but now heroes torture.
FWIW, "24" is shown on Fox.
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» RE: How people think of torture
Posted by: rnagisetty
» RE: How people think of torture
Posted by: mim
» RE: How people think of torture
Posted by: huston3
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rdsanchez1966 on Nov 26, 2005 7:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If American POW's have vital information vital to their war effort why not use torture? If torturing an American POW saves one Chinese, N. Korean, Iranian or Syrian life by all means go for it. THis is the logic the neo-cons are selling and sadly too many Americans are buying. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If they really believe this then they can't turn around and cry about Intenational Law and other such out dated legalities.
Of course I am missing the bigger picture. Those that are most likely to be tortured are going to be non-white and non-Christian. This is the unspoken but not unknown aspect of this whole debate. It is for this reason we will lose the support of the Arab Islamic world and much of the Third World.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Sauce for the Goose.....
Posted by: alport
» RE: Sauce for the Goose.....
Posted by: huston3
» RE: Sauce for the Goose.....
Posted by: rdsanchez1966
Comments are closed-
Posted by: remember vietnam? on Nov 28, 2005 11:50 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
remember the swift boats guys and their ilk. they cant admit what they did and what they saw as NEEDED to be done in vietnam.
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Posted by: pjohnq on Oct 3, 2006 6:21 AM
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Posted by: pjohnq on Oct 3, 2006 6:22 AM
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