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Rights and Liberties

Abortion: Trouble in Numbers?

By Jennifer Baumgardner, Nerve.com. Posted November 21, 2005.


Even among pro-choice activists, why does having more than one abortion imply a woman has been 'careless'?
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Abortion: Trouble in Numbers?
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My friend Marion Banzhaf is the kind of feminist who wears an "I had an abortion" T-shirt with "TALK TO ME" scrawled by hand beneath the message.

She worked at feminist health centers throughout the 1970s where she demonstrated vaginal self-exams and performed menstrual extractions. In its 1980s heyday, she was a pioneering member of the AIDS activist group ACT-UP. She recounts the story of her abortion in a film I produced called Speak Out: I Had an Abortion.

The year was 1971, and there were only a couple of states, notably New York, where abortion was legal. Although her boyfriend thought they should drop out of school at the University of Florida and get married -- they could live with his mother -- Marion disagreed. She raised the money for her abortion in one afternoon by standing on the quad, asking for donations.

She then flew from Gainesville to New York, had her procedure, and, after she left the clinic, ran skipping down the street. "I was so happy to see that blood," she says, in a trademark Marion Banzhaf way (somewhat shocking, totally confident). "It meant I had my life back."

Dauntless radical though she is, there is a part of her abortion story she rarely tells. A year after her 1971 procedure, Marion got pregnant again. This time she didn't have to worry about the money. Her new boyfriend pulled out his checkbook and put her on the next flight -- and she knew it was the right decision. "But it was a much harder [abortion] for me personally. I felt I shouldn't let myself get pregnant," says Marion, now fifty-two. "Even to this day, I have shame about it. An accomplished, consciousness-raised feminist like me!"

One abortion, that happens. Two? Well, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde, two smacks of carelessness. My father, a doctor in Fargo, North Dakota, expressed surprise when I mentioned the second-abortion stigma to him: "It's odd, given that it's the exact same situation as before, no more or less of a life," my father said. "It's as if women don't really believe they have the right to have abortions."

Dad, like Marion, is often shockingly logical. Still, abortion itself (whether your first or fourth) is so shrouded in secrecy, it's easy to imagine that only certain kinds of women would ever make a mistake like that twice. If "she" did, this almost unconscious thinking goes, it's clear "she" didn't care enough to learn from the first one. Fears about these repeat cases contribute to the unlovely idea that, because terminating a pregnancy is legal, women use abortion as birth control, leading to a cliché of this debate: the "I'm pro-choice, but I don't think it should be used as birth control" line.

In the clinic world, repeat visitors are called, not unkindly, "frequent flyers." The reason that casual term is not an insult is simply due to how common multiple abortions are. "You have 300 possibilities to get pregnant in your life," says Peg Johnston, the director of an abortion clinic in Binghamton, New York. "A one percent failure rate -- assuming the best possible use of contraception -- is still three abortions," she says. "In what endeavor is a one percent failure rate not acceptable?"

According to Planned Parenthood, two out of every 100 women aged fifteen to forty-four will have an abortion this year and half of them will have had at least one abortion previously. Yet virtually everyone I've talked to about multiple abortions said she shouldn't have let it happen again, implying it was her fault.

Why is that? Well, some of it is surely the anti-woman culture, a robust pro-life movement that, when abortion became legal, mobilized to scream at women on what is already not a fun day. But it's not just a vast right-wing conspiracy. Many women -- pro-choice women -- believe that abortion is taking a life (although not an independent life). What justifies that loss of life is the woman's own life. It's almost as if she is saying, "I recognize that this is serious, but my own life is too important to sacrifice for an unplanned pregnancy." But each additional abortion makes it harder to believe she is making an honorable decision.

Or that he is. My friend Matt, like many men in my life, has been part of more than one abortion. When he was younger, he was "knee-jerk pro-choice." If an unplanned pregnancy occurs in high school or college, he figured, of course you have an abortion. That's just commonsense. He didn't revisit that with any sort of introspection until the first abortion, "but I wasn't in love with [the woman in question]. We had no future together. I was comfortable saying we need to abort," Matt concludes. "I gave her money. She didn't express any need for me to be there with her."

He says, bluntly, that the abortion last year felt "more like murder," and that he was disgusted at himself for being the reason his girl was at Planned Parenthood, confronting scary toothless protesters and enduring this awful procedure. The circumstances had changed -- Matt did have a future with the woman he got pregnant with the second time, although having a baby just then, a few months into their relationship, wasn't a good idea at all.


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Jennifer Baumgardner is the co-author of "Manifesta: Young Women, Feminism and the Future."

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selfish and brutal, typically American
Posted by: wmoss on Nov 21, 2005 5:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a good reason people feel bad about getting one, two or more abortions. It is not a nice thing, it is not the same as removing a wart. A wart will not develop a life, have feelings, or dream if left to it's own devices. I am not a christian. I am not religious. Nor am I against the legality of abortions. But I do not support a callous attitude towards taking life and destroying it; and don't fool yourselves, a bundle of cells it may be but it is alive.
Buddhism has a place for appropriate shame as do many other philosophies. They believe that appropriate shame is a self defense mechanism for not doing wrong. The author's friend should have been ashamed. She did something she felt was necessary but was wrong. The other character was right to feel ashamed too. He has half the responsibility in destroying two lives and again it's appropriate for him to feel bad.
The people who are so cheerful about their own savagery, ("I've had an abortion" T-shirts!!!), are I believe either self-deusional or sociopathically callous. They are self-delusional to avoid being responsible for bad acts, or simply barbarians: selfish, having no respect for life or humanity.

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» compare to kittens Posted by: Geni
» RE: compare to kittens Posted by: morticia
Stop using the word abortion and call it what it really is. Fight for
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 21, 2005 6:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THE RIGHT TO TERMINATE UNEXPECTED PREGNANCIES .

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Re: Got adoption? Posted by: morticia
» "unexpected"??? Posted by: Geni
» RE: "unexpected"??? Posted by: tessd
» RE: "unexpected"??? Posted by: Geni
» RE: "unexpected"??? Posted by: morticia
Abortions
Posted by: Cathy on Nov 21, 2005 6:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why more than one? Failed birth control.

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» RE: Abortions Posted by: goldennugget
» RE: Abortions Posted by: Fade
» RE: Abortions Posted by: tessd
We are slaves to our "Christian" past
Posted by: sausage on Nov 21, 2005 6:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look, both the left and the right in this country have deep roots in Christianity as practiced by our Puritan forefathers and mothers.

All abortion is, really, is an elective surgical procedure little different than a facelift, tummy tuck or boob job. I know abortion carries more emotional weight than a nose bob. No one mourns outside the plastic surgon's clinic over the loss of excess proboscis, but that's all it is, just the removal of excess bodily tissue.

So, O.K., I'm going to get flamed over this but if one removes all the Christian ethics, which all Americans have been saddled with for three hundred years, and looks at the "issue" dispassionately that's' all abortion is, a surgical procedure, nothing more, nothing less.

Frankly, I'm tired of both left and right waving the bloody fetus in my face. The bloody fetus neither puts food on the table or a roof over the head, save for those "non-profit" lobbying organizations which keep the thing alive. It is the grand distraction. A distraction which keeps our national focus away from the Wall Street investors and CEO con-men who are destroying our freedom to feed their greed for wealth and power.

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» Like I didn't expect this... Posted by: sausage
» Well, du'ah... Posted by: sausage
» RE: Well, du'ah... Posted by: crusty
» RE: Well, du'ah... Posted by: tessd
» I'm with you, Cathy Posted by: sausage
» RE: I'm with you, Cathy Posted by: crusty
» Deeper than what? Posted by: sausage
» RE: Deeper than what? Posted by: crusty
» RE: Deeper than what? Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: I'm with you, Cathy Posted by: tessd
» Bull Posted by: Edward George
» RE: Bull Posted by: papergirl
With fear and trembling
Posted by: bookwoman on Nov 21, 2005 8:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was on the barricades in 1970, and I continue to fight for a woman's right to abortion. I come from the "walking a mile in your shoes" group. However, it is beyond me why, after going through a procedure which anyone should approach with fear and trembling, a woman would get into a situation to need another abotion. There are just too many ways to avoid pregnancy to have multiple events. No matter how you look at it, abortion terminates a potential human being. Women should value the right to abortion, but they should not be using it as back up birth control on a regular basis.

Oh, and, by the way, Christianity is not a thing from the past for millions of us.

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» RE: With fear and trembling Posted by: crusty
» RE: With fear and trembling Posted by: Lindie
» RE: With fear and trembling Posted by: liberalibrarian
» when life begins Posted by: badkitty
» RE: when life begins Posted by: atomic2day
» RE: With fear and trembling Posted by: dusty_bear
» RE: With fear and trembling Posted by: morticia
be humble, not ashamed
Posted by: ndnjones on Nov 21, 2005 9:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you were responsible for some error, the feeling would be guilt. The feeling of shame comes from a belief that one's very being is flawed. To feel that from an abortion is to admit that you have completely internalized a collective idea that abortion is criminal and sinful. That idea rests on two areas of ignorance about human nature. One, that a bundle of cells is an independent being with a soul. There is as yet no scientific verification of soul. It's a matter of personal belief, religious or otherwise.

The other false idea is that the mental construct that we think we are, is in control of our lives. Our conscius self is just that--a construct of experiences and corresponding beliefs about which thoughts and behaviors work in our own interest (whether they work well or not) and which don't. Many of those beliefs are imposed by our culture, and the ones about abortion have a hold to the degree that one is ignorant about one's own natural reproductive behaviors, which have been around for hundreds of millions of years before there were even primates, much less homo sapiens. We are built around such ancient patterns, not the other way around. It is a blilndered pattern, with the sole objective of reproduction with the highest chance of success. Any behavior that you think you control can be co-opted by this program and used for its own end.

To achieve its end, the reproductive program enlists neurohormonal controls over behavior which bring about an array of emotions geared to reinforce nurturing and protective behaviors. This does not necessarily eliminate conscious choice, but without knowledge and awareness it will. A woman who has been inculcated with a cultural belief that fully supports the unconscious operation of this program will literally feel torn if she goes against it because she is fighting a relentless internal pattern as well as intense social pressure. The feeling is probably confusion. The culture calls it shame and makes it more personal than it really is. To feel humility before the power of unconscious processes is appropriate; to feel ashamed is bullshit. You're just throwing yourself out of the Garden all over again.

If you've achieved complete awareness of your own cultural and biological programming then you can tell me I'm wrong. Until then, read up on ecofeminism, because your illusion of control is evidence of your not being alive in your own body.

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» Maternal instinct? Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Maternal instinct? Posted by: atomic2day
» RE: Maternal instinct? Posted by: ndnjones
» clap-trap Posted by: bettsoff
Think about this
Posted by: otis4 on Nov 21, 2005 9:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think everyone knows at least one couple who has had more than one unplanned child. It's doubtful that they were lectured on being careless. Why is this any different for a woman who has had more than one abortion? Is she somehow more careless? If she is to be labeled as so, then doesn't it make sense that people who go through with their unintended pregnancies should have to endure the same stigma? The fact is women will become pregnant accidentally and no one should be made to feel ashamed about it.
Also, it shouldn't matter why the unintended pregnancy occurred, whether it is from failed birth control or the lack of it. All that should matter is that every woman has the option to make the decision she thinks is best for her.

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» RE: Think about this Posted by: crusty
» RE: Think about this Posted by: morticia
» RE: Think about this Posted by: crusty
» RE: Think about this Posted by: crusty
» RE: Think about this Posted by: morticia
» And.... Posted by: morticia
» RE: And.... Posted by: crusty
» RE: And.... Posted by: morticia
» RE: Think about this Posted by: tessd
» RE: Think about this Posted by: morticia
» Message to Tess Posted by: morticia
» RE: Think about this Posted by: tikit
The 1% strategy
Posted by: Allison on Nov 21, 2005 10:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, if two (compatible) methods of birth control each have a 1% failure rate... use both. This may be a typical guy's opinion, but full-on shagging without a worry that pregnancy might result can be a pretty good thing.

But accidents happen, and the idea that a woman should feel bad about a second or even third abortion is almost a "wedge" for the anti-choice crowd. After all if the second is bad... maybe the first is too!? Anyway, some people are luckier than others. A woman shouldn't feel guiltier about her tenth abortion than her first, in my opinion (though she might want to consider why her contraception is not working!)

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» YES! Posted by: nattypoo
Birth control options
Posted by: BlueTigress on Nov 21, 2005 10:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think that since abortion as seen as a last-ditch method of not having a baby, than a woman who has more than one is seen as not using the proper method of contraceptive, proper being defined as the one that succeeds for her with the fewest side effects. I had to try several different birth control pill formulae before I found one that worked for me. Also, I was fortunate to be in a position to be able to afford it, but I will admit to being happy that my health insurance covered it. It helps when your spouse works for a major corporation.

Also, I think doctors and hospitals need to learn to respect the decision when a woman says "I do not want children, sterilize me". Most will not do an elective sterilization unless the woman is married and has children already.

One woman I read about who had multiple abortions admitted to being too irresponsible to use the Pill effectively (substance abuse problems) wished that she could just get her tubes tied, but she could not afford the operation. I don't think Medicaid would cover it either, but this was back in the day when it would cover abortions.

Guys, despite what the earlier poster said, you DO need to make sure that your partner is using some kind of contraceptive if you do not want her to get pregnant. If you don't want to use a condom, then don't have sex. Any time a guy pulls out the 'men just want to have sex' line, I start thinking that this means that men are ruled by their penises and should not be allowed to make their own decisions or run anything because they are incapable of thinking, except about sex.

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Selfish? Or SELF-ish? Pt. 1
Posted by: mwanacomete on Nov 21, 2005 12:32 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The conviction that women and men choosing abortions -- or to terminate unexpected/unwanted/unhealthy pregnancies -- are acting selfishly seems to be based on a fundamental judgment that selfish behavior is wrong. I imagine that everyone believes selfish behavior is at times appropriate -- but many believe that terminating pregnancies is wrong precisely because it is too selfish, or selfish where one must, for ethical reasons, resist selfishness and act selflessly.
This is where I wish to add to the debate. The above accusation is problematic, for it hides another, perhaps deeper, kind of selfishness: A pervasive and unconscious “SELF-ishness,” an identification between adults and embryos. Seeing themselves in the dividing cells, anti-abortionists decry the destruction of a self like their own.
This self-ishness has another aspect: a baseline selfishness where we believe that life -- our life -- is sacred. Life as we know it, as we experience it, as reflects us, is sacred beyond question, and all interference is pathologically wrong, ethically errant behavior. We, it would seem, are the essence of meaning in the universe, and our kind must be protected, must be permitted to prosper. (continued)

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» Selfish? Or SELF-ish? Pt. 2 Posted by: mwanacomete
» RE: Selfish? Or SELF-ish? Pt. 2 Posted by: atomic2day
The Truth Is
Posted by: NoPCZone on Nov 21, 2005 1:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1- Most people, pro & anti-choice, are uncomfortable with the idea of abortion. Many are for an individual's right to abortion services, but are uncomfortable with the concept on a personal basis.
2- Most people know that there are many more effective methods of birth control.
3- (1) + (2) = most people being very uncomfortable with the concept of any person having multiple abortions-- otherwise using it as a primary means of birth control.

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» RE: The Truth Is Posted by: Basenjis
It's none of my business....
Posted by: lamar on Nov 21, 2005 1:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that an abortion is not very good birth control, it's too expensive. Otherwise, have as many as you need. Remember, it's not my business?

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The trouble with being female.....
Posted by: morticia on Nov 21, 2005 1:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is how annoyingly "public" the inconveniences and messy processes of femaleness are. Big blaring TV ads for things like panty liners with "wings" or no-leak tampons, complete with graphic illustrations, invite prurient intrusion. Talk of what number of abortions is acceptable invites the same irrelevant and intrusive butting-in. Too bad abortion can't be what it should be: safe, legal, and PRIVATE.

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» Furthermore... Posted by: morticia
» RE: Furthermore... Posted by: crusty
» RE: Furthermore... Posted by: morticia
» P.S. Posted by: morticia
P.S.
Posted by: morticia on Nov 21, 2005 2:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For a refreshing antidote to the doctrine that all women agonize over their abortions, check out: imnotsorry.net

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» RE: P.S. Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
Natural Abortions
Posted by: RDR1940 on Nov 21, 2005 2:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I read my biology books correctly, less than 50% of fertilized eggs (zygotes) develop into babies. Many pregnancies fail without the mother ever knowing she was pregnant. Nature, therefore, aborts more than half of all its attempts at producing a new human being. Most women end up having multiple abortions, they just don’t know it. There are probably many reasons why a zygote that fails to develop correctly is naturally aborted (a miscarriage). Are the reasons a woman chooses to end her pregnancy by her own hand less valid?

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» RE: Natural Abortions Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Natural Abortions Posted by: mark
» RE: Natural Abortions Posted by: morticia
» RE: Natural Abortions Posted by: Bree in Idaho
» RE: Natural Abortions Posted by: SjrBoomz
» Oh God, that's awesome. Posted by: nattypoo
another take on repeat abortions
Posted by: venus924 on Nov 21, 2005 5:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had an abortion when I was younger and I don't regret it, but that abortion did make me feel a sense of loss emotionally and had some negative physical effects. Just because I can choose to have an abortion dosn't make it an emotionless experience. If I have a wart removed the experience doesn't become part of me. My abortion was personal and an experience that I will never forget. Something that I can share or withhold. I would never want to have more than one because it left physical and emotional scars. Its like all the other scars I have on my body, each one with a story. None of my scars have been repeated because I learned from each experience. Hindsight is 50/50.

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bl
Posted by: bl on Nov 21, 2005 5:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was forced to have an unwanted child when I was 16. Reason for pregnancy.......catholic ignorance. Many lives ruined. Females carry a crushing biological burden and must have choice and privacy

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» RE: bl Posted by: morticia
Abortion = Population Control.
Posted by: atomic2day on Nov 21, 2005 9:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Abortions should be free, people. In case you haven't noticed, we are rapidly consuming all of our natural resources and we can't even feed the people on earth at the moment, who needs more? Actual living humans, who can think and talk, are starving worldwide, but you want to make room for a lump of cells?
There are some real crazies out there who believe that "life" (in all its "mysterious" ways) begins at conception, and as such, all unused embryos that would otherwise be tossed from fertility clinics have a "right to life" and should be "adopted." Do these people and other extremist pro-lifers believe that a woman who miscarries is a subconscious murderer? Show me sense to be made out of your ideology and I'll pretend to be interested, but right now all I see is religious babble. I'd adopt a starving six year-old child before I would a tumorous growth of cells, but that's just me.
Is anyone else on the side of common sense?

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» Yay, a Smart Person! Posted by: goddess90
» PS.. moralizing the immoral... Posted by: SjrBoomz
No fail-safe
Posted by: mandiwrite on Nov 21, 2005 10:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To those who think that women 'shouldn't get themselves into this position', here's a tale: I knew a woman who fell pregnant in her late teens because she took her Pill eight hours later than normal one day. She got married, had the baby, had another planned pregnancy, then had her tubes tied. Quite some time later, she found out she was pregnant again, due to a botched job on the tube tying. And she's not alone. I have known two other women whose sterilisation didn't 'take' - and you can hardly get more reponsible than tying your tubes! And I have known one woman who said she was using the Pill and condoms (for safe sex) and fell pregnant. No such thing as fail-safe.

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what about male contraception??
Posted by: Rrose Sélavy on Nov 22, 2005 2:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why are not guys taking a pill to stop produce fertile sperm? it is simplier than for the women cycle : but most scientists were males , and couldn t imagine to stop the power of their holy foam...
a one percent failure crossed with a one percent failure, that s a one for ten thousand failure, and so a lot of sex!!
But i m a fag anyway lol
The only problem i have with multiple abortion is that it could reduce chosen pregnancy possibility in case of "surgeon injury" because uterus can be fragile

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choices
Posted by: wmoss on Nov 22, 2005 5:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The point of the article was wether or not it makes sense to feel bad about multiple abortions, and if so then is it right to feel bad about having one at all? I believe it is right to feel bad about having one. It's a destructive act where people intervene to end a developing human being. This is plain and simple. So the associated negative emotions are appropriate. You do wrong you feel bad. How wrong the act is and how bad you should feel are more complicated questions. They depend on a number of factors and require the use of common sense and reason. There's no simple blanket answer.

It seems that many pro-choice and pro-life people want to reduce it to a simple binary issue: without any nuance at all. However, I take issue with the attitude that people should have the right to act with poor judgement, escape the consequences, then feel nothing afterwards. I read many comments that hold this to be the case. Unfortunately, this attitude seems to infuse all our society. We want to live for ourselves alone, other people be damned. We live for our own pleasure ignoring the consequences. So we over-consume, trash the environment, exploit people, and all the time we rationalize our foolish behavior to escape feeling bad. We should feel bad when we act badly.

I'm not saying that abortions should be illegal, that women who get abortions are "murderers" or any such thing. Again, what I take issue with is the idea that we can wash our hands from moral responsibility. Any philosophy that helps us to be ethically lazy is a bad one. We should not excuse ourselves from having to exercise good judgement in our lives and in our relations to other people/the world.

The fact is that if women want to take control of their lives and be free, they have to exercise discipline and good sense. Freedom brings responsibilty. If one wants to be free to have sex for pleasure, that freedom brings responsibilty. It's no favor to tell someone otherwise and it's no good course to dehumanise reproduction...to strip it down to "cells". If you start stripping away moral regard like that it opens the door to real ugliness.

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» RE: choices Posted by: morticia
» RE: choices Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: choices Posted by: morticia
» RE: choices Posted by: nattypoo
Unwanted/Unplanned
Posted by: shadowinter on Nov 22, 2005 7:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
""The bigger shame is in having unwanted children. ""

In my heart of hearts I don't believe most pregnancies resulting in the birth of a child net 'unwanted children', rather that many pregnancies/children are 'unplanned'..in and out of marriage.

And why.. when speaking of women, pregnancies and children, so many times the word 'shame' is used in the same sentence?? With women themselves using the word 'shame' most often..

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I was mad, not ashamed
Posted by: okcamp on Nov 22, 2005 10:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mad as hell, actually.

I was married with an almost two-year-old. This was my second abortion (the first was many years before I met my husband).

My marriage was shaky....my husband was an ass.....I was tired.....and as I look back at it now, probably suffering from depression.

As I lay on the table in the clinic I had tears running down the corners of my eyes. The nurse asked if I was having second thoughts. Absolutely not. I was madder than hell that I 'let myself' get in this situation.

I didn't want another baby and I wasn't going to have another baby.

My fear of getting pregnant again totally destroyed my marriage. I was afraid to have sex with my husband. When we did have sex I was stiff as a board...afraid if I moved his condom would come off or something.

That's just the way it is. No guilt, just anger.

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» RE: I was mad, not ashamed Posted by: morticia
40% of abortions are for women who were using birth control
Posted by: janvdb on Nov 22, 2005 6:42 PM   
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These abortions should entail NO GUILT, NO SHAME, NO NOTHING.

No one did anything wrong. The method used simply failed.

Let's wake up the the difficulty of preventing pregnancy perfectly over years and years. The simple impossibility of everyone doing it perfectly all the time.

It is a matter of simple arithmetic: the millions of women alive x the numbers of cycles in a woman's life x the failure rates of the different types of birth control = one heck of a lot of abortions necessary. Without question and without guilt and without shame.

Unplanned children are NOT desirable from the point of view of the good of society, the good of the earth, the good of the species and the good of the environment.

Women who refuse to bear unwanted children should be applauded for stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing, despite the yapping dogs.

I am totally convinced that the actual agenda of the "pro-life" crowd is constraining women, not caring for "embryos." This crowd are completely unconcerned about the millions of embryos deliberated created, frozen and then discarded in in vitro fertilization attempts. They are unconcerned about child welfare after birth. They are unconcerned about genocide in Sudan and the war in Iraq. They are unconcered about capital punishment. It makes NO SENSE that their rabid campaign against women's health is motivated by an inconsistent concern for the embryos of those women.

Jan VanDenBerg

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» You Go, Girl! Posted by: agent99
Duh!
Posted by: agent99 on Nov 22, 2005 6:47 PM   
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Terminating a pregnancy should be between the woman and her physician. Period. If a man is against termination, then he should either:

A). Not have sex
B). Be neutured or use reliable protection
C). Sign a pre-sex contract, stating that if he gets the woman pregnant he will be financially responsible. Have the contract notarized before making whoopee.

What the "anti" people don't get is that without proper science based-sex education, the rate of unwanted pregnancies will just keep rising. Not surprisingly, the overly-religious red states also have the highest teenage pregnancies. Ignorance breeds babies.

Humans will always have sex, even the Republicans, try as they might to deny it. Safe, reliable, and affordable contraceptives are also a neccessity. I had to pay for my pills all through college; insurance wasn't touching it, even though I was prescribed them for medical reasons, not for birth control. After marriage and finding out how dangerous BCP's were, my husband and I switched to condoms, only to have one brand continually break (and not just during wild monkey sex). I took the box back to the store, and begged them to return them to the manufacturer, plus I followed up with a letter. I was in a safe and stable relationship, but what if I wasn't? Very scary.

All through history, women have used various methods of birth control. It's just common sense. We can't keep popping out babies every nine months just so Catholic and Mormon churches can ensure large congregations. Let's see the Pope try and raise 12 children on one small salary and not go crazy!

My heart goes out to all the women who have posted difficult situations arising from unplanned pregnancies. Please remember that you have done nothing wrong. You did what you had to do for your individual situation; no one can say what they will truly do until they themselves are faced with a difficult decision. You made the right choice for you, and that's all that counts.

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Furthermore.....
Posted by: morticia on Nov 23, 2005 12:26 AM   
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...I take exception to the opening premise of Baumgardner's article: "Even among pro-choice activists, why does having more than one abortion imply a woman has been 'careless'?" Just about everyone in this discussion is proceeding as if it were an established fact that "everyone" thinks more than one abortion is "too much." Utter baloney. I don't care if a woman has had one abortion or twenty--it's her business and nobody else's, and she doesn't have to apologize to anyone.

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Not so fast - Ms. Disrespectfuls!
Posted by: lterhune on Nov 23, 2005 2:17 PM   
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Although there are many who support freedom of choice, that does NOT mean that there are many who do so and who would do it personally. There are many women out there who still think it is personally wrong to have one abortion, personally, however, they subscribe to the therory that they cannot control what another woman does, so votes accordingly. It is not JUST the right wing Christian voter who thinks that abortions are not the right thing to do.

Perhaps those who have one once are more inclined to have another and another, certainly NOTHING to brag about even if you think the baby within is a nothing!

It is not as if you are getting spit ends a whole lot more than you should and need to cut more hair off your ends to look decent. It's not like eating way too much over the holidays and gaining 5 pounds only to go on another stupid diet and then blow it on valentine's day and go on another stupid diet! This is creating life when you need not do so, and being more fertile is an excuse.

The majority of those who get an abortion are those who have already had one, that is a fact! There is a 15 to 20 percent higher risk of DYING in the first 6 months after an abortion than you normally would if you had not even become pregnant... so what of that? Is it just an "oops" that you got pregnant again? Most get that way again, because in REALITY, they do not use birth control... plain and simple.
Logic would tell you that, (since again, the majority of women who get them each year have had one or more already!)

If you do not care for the life inside, you need to care more about the life you have to live, healthy and able to have children later on... and not be in higher risk of death... not have the severe emotional trama that 10 -20 percent have after an abortion for at least 3 months... there is a first mistake, you marry a wife beater, but to marry another one or get a divorce and then re-marry the same wife beater, is insane and very much careless, as is abortion in multiples... it's disrespectful to a life and certainly disrespectful to yourself!!!

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Thank you Jennifer B + women who make mistakes
Posted by: philame on Nov 25, 2005 5:57 AM   
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This article is excellent. I never thought about multiple abortions in this way before. I never questioned "commonsense" that the woman who has multiple abortions is irresponsible and I'd probably be embarrased myself if I had more than one abortion but you are right - this is such an anti-woman stance.

I also love how you admit to not being the most vigilant user of birth control. It made me think: why should feminism be about perfection? Being the good girl?

This is a tangent but I will allow myself the excess - sorry if I bore others. Jennifer's "confession" reminded me of how until recently I hated R&B songs about men that treat you "so bad". They made my skin crawl and my innervoice screamed - "because your bf is an idiot and you should leave him!" I SLOWLY realized though that is falling into the trap of the good girl narrative. Of course women shouldn't stay in abusive relationships, but are we even aware of the pressure put on women to always make the most perfect decisions? I wasn't until recently. It's a shame that women and girls still aren't permitted to be "girls" (like "boys will be boys") and screw up sometimes.

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My body,my life
Posted by: originalbranek on Nov 26, 2005 10:12 AM   
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I've had 3.Go ahead and have your opinions but there are few,if any, people other than my husband who have right to speak of it.

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» RE: My body,my life Posted by: morticia
Message to Tess
Posted by: morticia on Nov 26, 2005 10:36 AM   
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Tess--I'm a writer and would like to know more about your fund and your work. I'll post a way for you to get in touch if you'd be willing to contact me directly.

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Bush/Limbaughians abort thousands of lives everyday but do they need a permission slip?
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 26, 2005 5:41 PM   
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Take a good look at all their policies and their destructive agenda and you'll be shocked. And once, you're shocked, let's channel that anger to vote for politicians who'll safely cut down on abortions without outlawing it. That's the Democratic party we need to build.

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And here's to the rightwing trolls ...
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 26, 2005 5:49 PM   
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Big Daddy State Pops Up Again
Posted by: Jeffersonista on Nov 27, 2005 9:04 AM   
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Leave it to the so called conservatives, to want to turn over every personal decision to Big Daddy State. Given the state of science, your fingernails and hair, have the potential to become a person with cloning. Yes thats it lets have mock funerals for fingernail clippings and throw blood on the front of barbershops. Think of the cloned children to be! These murderers deserve to be locked up without trial and tortured to confess by Big Daddy State.

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Pro life and lies
Posted by: goldgrif on Nov 27, 2005 4:53 PM   
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Being a man, it will never be my decision in regarding an abortion except peripherially.
But what I am intereted in is this so called prolife people.
Where are they when kids are being bombed, in Iraq, or some other country. When children in innner cities are starving?
Intheir nice comfortable homes , thinking about dinner, their cars, there soap operas.
As nearly 15 years in social work their so called religious veiws are about blame, and usually hate.
I thought Christianity was about love.
Doesn't your God accept all, and in his infinite wisdom allow for choice?
Guess not

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To all anti-abortion males
Posted by: macnietspingal on Nov 27, 2005 10:53 PM   
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You don't like abortions? Don't produce children. Find the father of the embryo/fetus and make sure he doesn't produce another one.

I remember in the 1960's, I think it was then, Columbia U. male profs on tv encouraging black women to have as many babies as they wanted. The prof's said it was their right in a democracy. I was horrified. I decided right then and there, no more charity. I limited the number of kids I had so that I could provide for the ones that I planned. It was all done with the cooperation of my husband. I found out to my horror that some wives deceive their husbands and tell them they are protected, but really aren't. They destroy the lives of their husbands.

So guys the overpopulation problem can only be solved by you guys. You can't trust us females :)

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What if it was my fault?
Posted by: myralynn82 on Dec 6, 2005 12:42 PM   
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What if, plain and simple, the second (or even the first) abortion was my fault? Let's say I had plenty of money, access, and knowledge about birth control, but I simply did not use it. I engaged in unprotected sex with full knowledge that it may lead to pregnancy, it did, and I had one or two or three abortions. Would you still support me in my choice to not use any method of birth control other than abortion?

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» RE: What if it was my fault? Posted by: morticia
I know this is old but...
Posted by: nattypoo on Dec 6, 2005 7:46 PM   
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So, if multiple abortions are the product of either a) carelessness, b) bad luck with poorly tested birth-control products, or c) a life so out of hand that any kind of control is impossible, isn't the solution to the problem the unlikely suggestion that we cease judging our compatriots and ourselves? After all, two thirds of the possibilities are non-fault-bearing, and the one left is extremely unlikely in any person that has undergone the procedure once.

If a woman senses that her sexual life is out of her control in any way it seems natural to me that she would feel "bad" about that. It also seems to me that, rather than hack away at herself with guilt, she should focus her energies into changing the situation: read some feminist literature, seek career counseling, shoot her abusive partner in a manner that makes it clear the act was done in self-defense, whatever.

Now, I am not a woman, and so I cannot pretend to truly understand the choices that are made when confronting such a situation. Really, how many of us are the woman we are judging for having one or seven abortions? Judgement is hard to get around, but let us at least confine it to ourselves. Even here our understanding is imperfect, but certainly not so dismal as when we turn our 3/4 blinded eyes in anger against people with whom we have no life-long 24-hours-a-day perfectly telepathic/empathic connection. When you cannot not judge yourself, oh women in this situation, I think it important that you remember that 99% of the factors that go into determining whether or not sexual activity leads to pregnancy are effectively non-controllable. Does Trojan have your interests at heart when testing their product? Does [pharmaceutical company whose name I don't know because I am a man] have your best interests at heart when developing their product? Is your partner capable of functioning on all mental cylendars when fully aroused by your beauty and his sheer dumb luck? If your answser to any of these questions is a negative, even an uncertainty, then you should not waste time in self-flagellation...Don't do that in any case, spend that energy in making sure that you are making decisions in your sex life that are in your best interest, emotionally and morally. The issue is not the abortion, or how many, the issue is whether or not you are making your own decisions in life. If the situation is unsatisfactory, guilt and judgement will not help you, only a change.

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a non-policy question
Posted by: vespasian01 on Dec 18, 2005 2:36 AM   
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There's one question I've considered over the years, a question I've ventured to ask only two or three times in discussions involving abortion. Generally, the only reply I receive is an angry facial expression. But the matter remains important to me:
"What can be done to reduce the suffering of those being aborted?"

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» RE: a non-policy question Posted by: morticia
Hold on...what's wrong with feeling bad about making a mistake?
Posted by: terihu on Jan 2, 2006 1:52 AM   
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I don't understand the problem, here.

Is the point to make people feel GOOD about having an abortion? If so, that's just nuts, and you're giving ammunition to the pro-life psychos.

Now, if you're saying that other people shouldn't make them feel bad, that's fine...it's none of their business, unplanned pregnancies are a tough enough situation without busybody outsiders weighing in with their two useless bits. Like Thumper's mother said, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

But I don't think it's the outsiders' disapproval that keeps women from speaking up about abortion. I think there's a stigma on talking about abortion because the people who've had them DON'T FEEL GOOD about it, and that makes perfect sense! It's a shitty experience, even if it's the best thing that could've happened.

I mean, if it really wasn't that big a deal, you'd see people purposely getting pregnant and aborting. Or some knocked up art/film school student would've used her abortion experience for a thesis by now. It would make for great performance art, wouldn't it? That it doesn't happen goes to show that it's the women going through it who don't want to talk about it...because god knows, if someone actually did it, it would make a HUGE splash and earn her notoriety you couldn't buy in a lifetime.

Women AND men who have abortions SHOULD feel bad about it. Not suicidally guilty, omigod-what-have-I-done, I'll-never-be-happy-again bad, but for crying out loud, it's a fucking mistake like any other, you screwed up, and if you don't stop and ask yourself what you could've done to prevent it, you're doomed to do it again, and again, and again...and THAT makes you a fool.

Sorry, but there's no way around that.

It's a mistake, just like getting into a car accident, or failing a class, or losing your wallet, or any other aspect of adult life where shit happens...chances are you COULD'VE done something about it, and if you don't THINK about how to fix the problem, it's your own life you're screwing up.

Feeling bad is part of the solution.

Feeling bad makes you not want it to happen again.

Feeling bad helps you grow up, become more responsible, live a better life, because you don't WANT to feel bad anymore.

WHY is that being treated as a bad thing?

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Welcome to the future NOT.
Posted by: Slowburn on Feb 13, 2006 10:16 AM   
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I'm i wrong but hasn't pharmacology rendered this debate mute? Why don't women demand the privilege to be able to take advantage of modern medicine? (i.e. morning after, male contraception etc.)? why aren't antiabortionists promoting preventive medicine? Is it being controlled for political purposes? abortion can be a thing of the past if it weren't such a valuable tool for political control. A woman's right to privacy regarding her well being is no ones business but her own.

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gfgf
Posted by: mikaeltormod on Nov 8, 2006 7:58 AM   
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