COMMENTS: 72
The Torture Test
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The context for the White House position is key. After the publication of the Abu Ghraib photos in 2004, the administration released a raft of documents claiming these documents showed that there was no policy allowing the abuse of prisoners. It was surreal; the documents showed just the opposite. It was as though the White House thought we couldn't read.
Most striking was a memorandum of February 7, 2002, signed by President George W. Bush, on the treatment of Al Qaeda and Taliban detainees. That memorandum records the president's unilateral determination that the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war "does not apply to either al Qaeda or Taliban detainees." This decision is of dubious validity because there is no provision in the Geneva conventions that would countenance a unilateral decision to exempt prisoners from Geneva protections.
I will spare you most of the torturous language offered by the president's lawyers. Suffice it to say that paragraph 3 of his February 7 memorandum contains a gaping loophole that, in effect, authorizes torture:
As a matter of policy, the United States Armed Forces shall continue to treat detainees humanely and, to the extent appropriate and consistent with military necessity, in a manner consistent with the principles of Geneva. (emphasis added)How Did We Stoop So Low?
President Bush and Vice President Cheney set the tone. According to counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke, it began on the evening of 9/11.Immediately after the president's 8:30p.m. TV address to the nation, he met with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Clarke in a bunker under the East Wing of the White House. In his book, Against All Enemies, Clarke describes the president as "confident, determined, and forceful":
I want you all to understand that we are at war...any barriers in your way, they're gone. Any money you need, you have it...I don't care what the international lawyers say, we are going to kick some ass.At a joint hearing of the House and Senate intelligence committees on September 26, 2002, Cofer Black, then-head of the Counterterrorism Center at CIA, emphasized the need for "operational flexibility," adding that intelligence operatives cannot be held to the "old" standards. Addressing torture, Black said, "This is a highly classified area, but I have to say that all you need to know: There was a before-9/11 and an after-9/11. After 9/11 the gloves came off."
On Wednesday, the Washington Post delivered fresh evidence that, within days of 9/11, Bush and Cheney told then-CIA director George Tenet to set CIA interrogators free from the customary restrictions. In her article on the mini-gulag system of secret CIA-operated prisons overseas, Post reporter Dana Priest reported that on September 17, 2001, Bush signed a secret "finding" giving the CIA broad authorization to disrupt terrorist activity, including permission to kill, capture and detain Al Qaeda members anywhere in the world.
Authorization for "rendering" detainees to other countries for interrogation, as well as the establishment of secret prisons abroad, were probably subsumed under such a broad presidential "finding." Still, one can assume that Tenet and, indeed, the president himself would seek reassurance that they would be legally protected from prosecution in the future. And this would account for the flurry of lawyerly activity in early 2002.
Why were then-White House counsel Alberto Gonzalez and David Addington, then counsel to Vice President Cheney (and recently appointed to replace I. Lewis Libby as chief of staff) and their counterpart attorneys at Justice and Defense at such pains to square the circle to make torture "legal?"
Addington reportedly took the lead in drafting the famous memorandum sent by Gonzales to the president on January 25, 2002, which described as "quaint" and "obsolete" some of the Geneva provisions, and reassured the president that there was "a reasonable basis in law" that--if he exempted Taliban and Al Qaeda detainees from Geneva protections--he could still avoid possible future prosecution for war crimes. And so, Bush signed the February 7 memorandum, and Tenet's hired thugs could feel more at ease employing so-called "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques"--including "water-boarding," during which a detainee is repeatedly brought to the point of drowning.
In her report, Priest made it clear that only the chair and ranking members of the House and Senate intelligence committees were briefed on the secret prisons, and this is probably what happened with respect to other quasi-legal activities as well. But there is a problem. Members of Congress, however much they may enjoy being privy to real secrets and as prone as many are to give intelligence activities a wink and a nod, they cannot make illegal activities legal. And that's the rub.
Enter The Straight Man
Earlier this month, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., who knows torture up close and personal, was joined by 89 other senators in voting for legislation that makes unlawful "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment of persons under custody or control of the United States government." The McCain initiative took the form of an amendment to this year's $440-billion defense authorization bill, which includes about $50 billion needed for operations in Iraq.
It will come as no surprise that Cheney is leading the fight against the amendment. It is an unseemly spectacle. Here we have a parvenu regarding things military--with multiple draft deferments to escape the war in Vietnam--importuning the highly decorated officer and torture survivor McCain to allow torture to continue in Iraq and elsewhere. No matter. Cheney descended on McCain and other senators last July and tried to twist their arms to put the amendment aside. Cheney was rebuffed, as he apparently was once again last week, when he and CIA chief Porter Goss made another attempt to dissuade McCain.
A few CIA professionals were angry enough to protest, but were assured by Goss' Office of Congressional Affairs that Goss is on record as forbidding the use of torture by CIA officers. This disingenuous reply came even as Goss joined Cheney in lobbying on the Hill to modify the McCain amendment so there would be no legal problems for CIA personnel engaging in torture--or for the CIA director who condoned it.
Yesterday, the president's own United Methodist Church's Board of Church and Society, in an almost unanimous vote, protested against the "unjust war in Iraq" and appealed for return of our troops. The Board also issued a strong statement against torture, urging Congress to create an independent, bipartisan commission to investigate detention and interrogation practices at Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan. The Methodist bishops may issue a similarly strong statement next week.
Until now, the lukewarm mainstream churches have not been able to find their voice--a throwback to the unconscionably passive stance adopted by the Catholic and Lutheran churches that were co-opted by Hitler in the 1930s. Let us hope that other churches start paying attention to what is going on and follow the good example of the Methodists.
Otherwise, our government's view will prevail. As described by one former CIA lawyer that is "the law of the jungle. And right now we happen to be the strongest animal."
House and Senate conferees are to meet this week to reconcile the two versions of the defense bill. The fate of the McCain amendment, which is included only in the Senate bill, hangs in the balance. Three of the nine Republican senators who voted against the amendment are on the Senate/House conference committee. What emerges will be a moral barometer. It will be interesting to see if the barometer keeps falling.
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Posted by: nitsua1023 on Nov 7, 2005 12:42 AM
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We shouldn't do things to other people that we wouldn't also do to American people. You can't lead the war on terror by implementing torture. Decency aside, torture produces highly unreliable intelligence.
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» RE: My Contribution to Dick Cheney
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: My Contribution to Dick Cheney
Posted by: Mycos
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Posted by: rabblerowzer on Nov 7, 2005 4:35 AM
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How is it that so many Americans have failed to notice that Dick Cheney is a sociopath? It’s not as if it’s a new development, anyone who has kept an eye on Cheney since the Reagan years can have no doubt. The thing is, there are and always have been so many sociopaths elected by republicans to congress (even before Joe McCarthy) and the white house, (Ronald Wilson Reagan) that amoral behavior has become a virtue in the minds of most republicans. Winning wealth and power, by whatever means necessary, is all that matters to them.
When will decent Americans overcome their fear of the Rabid Right and express their revulsion for the corruption of all we stand for?
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» RE: Can’t see the forest for the trees.
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Nov 7, 2005 5:26 AM
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» RE: Take control
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» Poe the idolator
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» RE: Take control :Poe
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Posted by: cottontail on Nov 7, 2005 9:08 AM
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If indeed McCain's amendment passes there is nothing to prevent continuing the practice of "rendition" to the countries that are known to practice torture. Seems there's no way to stop these psycopaths from having their way short of impeachment. Impeachment, what a wonderful word!
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Posted by: EllenJ
» RE: clinker
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: cottontail on Nov 7, 2005 9:08 AM
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If indeed McCain's amendment passes there is nothing to prevent continuing the practice of "rendition" to the countries that are known to practice torture. Seems there's no way to stop these psycopaths from having their way short of impeachment. Impeachment, what a wonderful word!
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Posted by: stoney13 on Nov 7, 2005 10:55 AM
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We can start by water-boarding them in "Electric Kool Aid' untill they give up the names of the neocons who's lies got us into this war!! Then we can pelt them with organic vegelables, and make them listen to Poe read from "Mein Keimph" (I don't know how to spell it and really don't need to! Poe, however does! What does that tell you!!)
We can save the American tax payers millions if we can get the truth out of them!!
Afterwards we can find something nice to do with Karl Rove!! Something with grease and a horny elephant, I think!
Then we can strip them down, stack them up, and take pictures...Then burn them... Along with the the pictures! (Who the fuck would want to see pictures like that!!)
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» RE: Let's Torture Cheney!
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Let's Torture Cheney!
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Let's Torture Cheney! It's called sarcasm, numb-nuts! Not everybody's as anal as you!
Posted by: stoney13
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Posted by: sgtmartin1 on Nov 7, 2005 10:56 AM
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Sitting in my lap was this morning's Washington Post saying the Veep was working Senators for this very purpose and fresh in my mind are the horrible images of Abu Ghraib.
You'd think he'd at least try and nuance the lies. I'd love to hear the White House conversations concerning their horrid poll numbers on matters of credibility. Do you think they ever considered stopping the lies as an antidote? Nah.
My pen is my sword--take that dubya! New on EWM: “Operation Choke the Chicken”
DHS won’t be caught with its pants down by Avian Flu
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» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...
Posted by: Poe
» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...Poe
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...
Posted by: stoney13
» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...
Posted by: tribalogical
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Posted by: dearkitty on Nov 7, 2005 11:12 AM
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Probably Bush was inspired here by the chorus of a 25 years old song by British band the Au Pairs.
It is called Armagh (in Northern Ireland; on the British women's prison there).
See more here.
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Posted by: decembrist on Nov 7, 2005 2:10 PM
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HERE IS THE LIST OF SENATORS WHO VOTED AGAINST THE ANTI-TORTURE BILL:
Stevens (R) AK
Roberts (R) KS
Sessions (R) AL
Inhofe (R) OK
Bond (R) MO
Coburn (R) OK
Cochran (R) MS
Cornyn (R) TX
Allard (R) CO
If you live in any of these states, (especially OK) then you've got some work to do... you have sociopaths representing you in the senate.
Now comes news that an Italian news channel is airing a documentary that shows the US used phosphourus as an indiscriminate chemical weapon in Fallujah. And also used a new form of napalm. You can check it out in PEEK on this website.
Our president and his allies must be stopped - they're killers on the loose.
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» RE: Torture Is Not An Arguable Option
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Torture Is Not An Arguable Option
Posted by: mim
» RE: Torture Is Not An Arguable Option
Posted by: mim
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Posted by: humansfirst on Nov 7, 2005 3:19 PM
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yeah, they ARE psychopaths and the ARE running the world unless somebody (WE?) stop them!
We should charge them with war crimes and torture them as they have had others tortured! And why aren't we doing that right now???
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Posted by: rockpicker on Nov 7, 2005 7:46 PM
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Tomorrow, RAI will broadcast film exposing US use of white phosphorus against the civilian population of Falluja.
Since you so enjoy playing Devil's Advocate, you and your buddies can all go straight to Hell! Have a hot time together.
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» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: billfaster
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: stoney13
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: stoney13
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Posted by: rockpicker on Nov 7, 2005 8:57 PM
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In the investigative story, produced by Maurizio Torrealta, dramatic footage is shown revealing the effects of the bombardment on civilians, women and children, some of whom were surprised in their sleep.
The investigation will also broadcast documentary proof of the use in Iraq of a new napalm formula called MK77. The use of the incendiary substance on civilians is forbidden by a 1980 UN treaty. The use of chemical weapons is forbidden by a treaty which the US signed in 1997
Fallujah. La strage nascosta [Fallujah, The Concealed Massacre] will be shown on RAI News tomorrow November 8th at 07:35 (via HOT BIRDTM statellite, Sky Channel 506 and RAI-3), and rebroadcast by HOT BIRDTM satellite and Sky Channel 506 at 17:00 [5 pm] and over the next two days.
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Posted by: Poe on Nov 8, 2005 6:22 AM
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I understand the complexities of war and the tragedy of war.
I also understand that the US can fight dirty.....and how ruthless we can be.
In advertising, the easiest thing to sell, is human suffering. Social issues can easily spark emotion with a simple catchy headline and a graphic image. Piece of cake. Can put one together in five minutes.
Human suffering and tragedy is what also sells newspapers and network advertising......especially in a time of war. Add to that a very heated political environment, and what we get are very passionate opinions and in many cases, particularly on these blogs, ridiculous personal attacks on total strangers.
Charred bodies hanging from a bridge sells newspapers and makes for a morning conversation in a coffee shop. So does a little Iraqi boy, with no limbs and no family.
Get the cameras and microphones up close on two parents that just found out they lost a son in the war.....and if a political statement is made.....someone is going to run with it.
How many of us really know what's going on in Iraq? Even if you're there, you may not be able to see the whole picture. A soldier who saw those charred bodies hanging from a bridge, may not have the same opinion as another soldier who's been building bridges. A soldier that slaughters a family in a car at a checkpoint, is certainly not going to have the same opinion as a soldier that helped a family build a school for their children.
Outside of the tragedy of war.....the human toll....and we should all be made aware of the human toll......the biggest news from Iraq, in my opinion, is that they have held elections and have a constitution. Far from perfect, but pretty amazing nonetheless.
Cover it anyway you want.....it should be THE news story.
Love it...hate it...debate it.
Ignore it.
Instead, let's get back to the insurgents and abu Ghraib......and white powder.
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» RE: A response to Pepper, from Poe
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: A response to Pepper, from Poe
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: rockpicker on Nov 8, 2005 3:26 PM
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» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: Poe
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
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» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
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» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
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» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/ Pt 11
Posted by: Mycos
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Posted by: Poe on Nov 11, 2005 6:14 AM
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All roads lead to the United States.
Since you have all the answers....and I admittedly don't.......I'll let you enlighten me with your foresight and wisdom.
I'm just going to throw these out there off the top of my head.
I look forward to you opening up my eyes.
One thing.....I've never seen Fox News....except maybe in a hotel lobby. I have basic cable, 2-22. C-Span is what I watch......especially Washington Review.
Anyway.....on with some questions.
How can we make the world a better place?
Why didn't the UN do anything about Rwanda?
What did Canada do about Rwanda?
What should have been the proper response after 9-11?
What should the US have done to prevent 9-11?
Could Bush have prevented 9-11?
Why did we impose sanctions on Iraq?
What would have happened without the sanctions?
(aside from the loss of Iraqi' life)
Why did Iraq invade Kuwait?
Did Saddam torture people?
Did the US supply him with torture devices?
If I gave you a gun, and you killed someone with that gun, who should be blamed for that person's death?
Why did the US invade Iraq?
What should the world do about al-Qaeda?
What should the world do about North Korea.....or is everything fine in North Korea?
Is North Korea even a threat to anyone?
Is Iran a threat, and if so, what should be done?
What should the world do about the US, if they had the means?
You said I could ask....so I did.
Again....I hope you can "beat" some answers into my pea-brain.
Poe
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» RE: Mycos...enlighten me.
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me.2
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me. Part 1
Posted by: Falang
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me. Part 2
Posted by: Falang
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me. Part 2
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me. Part 2
Posted by: Falang
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Posted by: Wyatt8 on Nov 11, 2005 10:52 AM
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In attempting to drum up Republican support for the 'illegal' torture chambers Mr. Cheney blabbed. As the leader of Senate, it was his responsibility to prevent discussion of classified info. What happened instead was one of the Republican senators spilled the beans to the Washington Post. After all, this was the first acknowledgement from the executive branch that there were off-the-books assets, revealed by none other than the Vice-President himself. The fact that these activities were disclosed in a 'closed Republican forum' did not subject this information to the legal prohibitions against the disclosure of classified material. The vice-president himself had either introduced the material or was knowingly complicit in leaking outside the law. Confirmation of the disclosure publicly confirmed by the former Republican majority leader, Trent Lott.
Any hearing, investigation, or independent inquiry as to the specific senator, who gave the story to the Washington Post, will only tighten the noose around the vice-president. Senator Roberts, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, immediately proclaimed that there would be 'no congressional investigation of the disclosure, and if there was such a investigation, it would not see the light of day'. Once again the CIA has referred the case to the Justice Department. If any crime was committed it was not on the part of whoever gave the story to the Washington Post, it was the fact that the national security secret was disclosed in a Republican partisan meeting. OOPS!!!
It has been interesting to watch how Senator Rockefeller and Congresswoman Jane Harmon, the Ranking Minority Members of the Gang of Eight deflect questions which they, by law, cannot answer. The Iraq War, the War on Terror, and the operations of the American government cannot possibly be debated openly due to the fact that those who know cannot tell, and those who tell are ineptly trying to deceive and spin the truth.
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Posted by: kunzangwangmo on Nov 11, 2005 10:16 PM
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I am a doctor and the assignment Cheney gave me was to go to Iran as a physician. Once in Iran, a camera crew would be filming when an Iranian agent would rush in to say that he knew a secret bunker where the Iranian govt. was developing nuclear weapons. Cheney admitted that the rest of the filming would occur in Hollywood with a mock up of said lab. Clearly, this was an immoral assignment. There was no way that I was going to have the blood of innocent Iranian women and children on my hands, so I refused. When I did so, Cheney threatened the life of my mother. Since my mother had recently told me she would rather die than have me be emotionally blackmailed in this way, I held to my no.
During the course of our about 40 minute talk, one of his secret service officers interrupted us twice. The next week when I was kidnapped in Virginia, raped and tortured for 4 days, I recognized the voice of that officer as one of the rapists.
It is an outrage that Cheney is advocating torture. He has already shown by his actions, that he will stop at nothing, not even the torture of American born CIA personnel in order to get his way. He has a clear conflict of interest in making money off these wars. Are we, as Americans, going to torture people just so that corrupt officials can line their pockets with oil and war profiteering revenues?
Please write your congresspersons to prevent others being tortured as I was. Cheney and Bush should be impeached for lying to force us into war. We are not winning the war on terrorism, torture is terrorism as anyone who had been through it knows. I was raped and subjected to three mock executions, when will this US reign of terror end?
Sincerely,
Sue Arrigo, MD
California medical license G 50197
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» RE: An American Already Tortured By Cheney's Team in the US
Posted by: stoney13
» RE: An American Already Tortured By Cheney's Team in the US
Posted by: tribalogical
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Posted by: Poe on Nov 12, 2005 9:49 AM
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You didn’t enlighten me, though. You played the blame game again. That’s too easy.
I want solutions, damnit! I have a five year old little girl....I want a better world for her future.
Let’s say, whatever political party you support is now running the country. Call the party whatever you want.
Bush, Cheney, consvervatives......theyr’e long gone....dead and buried or in jail.
Let's just say they were never in power to begin with.
But you’re still faced with the same problems......whether they were brought on by the US or not......they still need to be dealt with in some way.
So....enlighten me. Open my mind! It’s your gig now.
How can we make the world a better place?
What would you have done about Rwanda?
What should have been the proper response after 9-11?
What could the US have done to prevent 9-11?
Would you have tried to force Saddam out of Kuwait?
Would you have imposed sanctions on Iraq?
Why did Iraq invade Kuwait?
If left in power, would Saddam ever be a threat to the US?
Did the US supply him with torture devices?
If I gave you a gun, and you killed someone with that gun, who should be blamed for that person's death?
Why did the US invade Iraq?
What should the world do about al-Qaeda?
What should the world do about North Korea.....or is everything fine in North Korea?
Is North Korea even a threat to anyone?
Is Iran a threat, and if so, what should be done?
You're running the show now.....no excuses.....no more blaming....we need solutions.
Go nuts.
Poe
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» RE: Mycos...no excuses...it's your world now.
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Mycos...no excuses...it's your world now.
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Mycos...no excuses...it's your world now.
Posted by: Mycos
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Posted by: jguenther on Nov 14, 2005 5:46 AM
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Posted by: giles.rj on Nov 14, 2005 6:37 PM
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The real questions are:
- Who established the policy of creating an illegal category of detainees and interrogation techniques and attempted a coverup?
- Who forged the often quoted evidence of weapons of mass destruction?
- Who igmored warnings of 9/11?
- What is the real reason for the Iraq war? The energy policy? Profits for the VP's company?
- Why haven't we gone after Bin Laden? Saudi ties to the Bush administration?
- Is the world a better place since this administration came into power?
THESE ARE THE PERTINENT QUESTIONS --- WHOSE RESEARCHING THE ANSWERS?
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Posted by: nitsua1023 on Nov 7, 2005 12:42 AM
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We shouldn't do things to other people that we wouldn't also do to American people. You can't lead the war on terror by implementing torture. Decency aside, torture produces highly unreliable intelligence.
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» RE: My Contribution to Dick Cheney
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: My Contribution to Dick Cheney
Posted by: Mycos
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Posted by: rabblerowzer on Nov 7, 2005 4:35 AM
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How is it that so many Americans have failed to notice that Dick Cheney is a sociopath? It’s not as if it’s a new development, anyone who has kept an eye on Cheney since the Reagan years can have no doubt. The thing is, there are and always have been so many sociopaths elected by republicans to congress (even before Joe McCarthy) and the white house, (Ronald Wilson Reagan) that amoral behavior has become a virtue in the minds of most republicans. Winning wealth and power, by whatever means necessary, is all that matters to them.
When will decent Americans overcome their fear of the Rabid Right and express their revulsion for the corruption of all we stand for?
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» RE: Can’t see the forest for the trees.
Posted by: cstriker
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Posted by: Lincoln fan on Nov 7, 2005 5:26 AM
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» RE: Take control
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Take control
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» RE: Take control
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Take control
Posted by: bgroat
» Poe the idolator
Posted by: decembrist
» RE: Take control
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Take control
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» RE: Take control
Posted by: billfaster
» RE: Take control
Posted by: Lincoln fan
» RE: Take control :Poe
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: cottontail on Nov 7, 2005 9:08 AM
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If indeed McCain's amendment passes there is nothing to prevent continuing the practice of "rendition" to the countries that are known to practice torture. Seems there's no way to stop these psycopaths from having their way short of impeachment. Impeachment, what a wonderful word!
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» RE: clinker
Posted by: EllenJ
» RE: clinker
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: cottontail on Nov 7, 2005 9:08 AM
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If indeed McCain's amendment passes there is nothing to prevent continuing the practice of "rendition" to the countries that are known to practice torture. Seems there's no way to stop these psycopaths from having their way short of impeachment. Impeachment, what a wonderful word!
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Posted by: stoney13 on Nov 7, 2005 10:55 AM
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We can start by water-boarding them in "Electric Kool Aid' untill they give up the names of the neocons who's lies got us into this war!! Then we can pelt them with organic vegelables, and make them listen to Poe read from "Mein Keimph" (I don't know how to spell it and really don't need to! Poe, however does! What does that tell you!!)
We can save the American tax payers millions if we can get the truth out of them!!
Afterwards we can find something nice to do with Karl Rove!! Something with grease and a horny elephant, I think!
Then we can strip them down, stack them up, and take pictures...Then burn them... Along with the the pictures! (Who the fuck would want to see pictures like that!!)
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» RE: Let's Torture Cheney!
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Let's Torture Cheney!
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Let's Torture Cheney! It's called sarcasm, numb-nuts! Not everybody's as anal as you!
Posted by: stoney13
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Posted by: sgtmartin1 on Nov 7, 2005 10:56 AM
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Sitting in my lap was this morning's Washington Post saying the Veep was working Senators for this very purpose and fresh in my mind are the horrible images of Abu Ghraib.
You'd think he'd at least try and nuance the lies. I'd love to hear the White House conversations concerning their horrid poll numbers on matters of credibility. Do you think they ever considered stopping the lies as an antidote? Nah.
My pen is my sword--take that dubya! New on EWM: “Operation Choke the Chicken”
DHS won’t be caught with its pants down by Avian Flu
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» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...
Posted by: Poe
» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...Poe
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...
Posted by: stoney13
» RE: I nearly fell out of my chair...
Posted by: tribalogical
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Posted by: dearkitty on Nov 7, 2005 11:12 AM
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Probably Bush was inspired here by the chorus of a 25 years old song by British band the Au Pairs.
It is called Armagh (in Northern Ireland; on the British women's prison there).
See more here.
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Posted by: decembrist on Nov 7, 2005 2:10 PM
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HERE IS THE LIST OF SENATORS WHO VOTED AGAINST THE ANTI-TORTURE BILL:
Stevens (R) AK
Roberts (R) KS
Sessions (R) AL
Inhofe (R) OK
Bond (R) MO
Coburn (R) OK
Cochran (R) MS
Cornyn (R) TX
Allard (R) CO
If you live in any of these states, (especially OK) then you've got some work to do... you have sociopaths representing you in the senate.
Now comes news that an Italian news channel is airing a documentary that shows the US used phosphourus as an indiscriminate chemical weapon in Fallujah. And also used a new form of napalm. You can check it out in PEEK on this website.
Our president and his allies must be stopped - they're killers on the loose.
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» RE: Torture Is Not An Arguable Option
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Torture Is Not An Arguable Option
Posted by: mim
» RE: Torture Is Not An Arguable Option
Posted by: mim
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Posted by: humansfirst on Nov 7, 2005 3:19 PM
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yeah, they ARE psychopaths and the ARE running the world unless somebody (WE?) stop them!
We should charge them with war crimes and torture them as they have had others tortured! And why aren't we doing that right now???
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Posted by: rockpicker on Nov 7, 2005 7:46 PM
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Tomorrow, RAI will broadcast film exposing US use of white phosphorus against the civilian population of Falluja.
Since you so enjoy playing Devil's Advocate, you and your buddies can all go straight to Hell! Have a hot time together.
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» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: billfaster
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: stoney13
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: Pepper
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: Put some Willy Pete in your pipe and smoke it, Poe
Posted by: stoney13
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Posted by: rockpicker on Nov 7, 2005 8:57 PM
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In the investigative story, produced by Maurizio Torrealta, dramatic footage is shown revealing the effects of the bombardment on civilians, women and children, some of whom were surprised in their sleep.
The investigation will also broadcast documentary proof of the use in Iraq of a new napalm formula called MK77. The use of the incendiary substance on civilians is forbidden by a 1980 UN treaty. The use of chemical weapons is forbidden by a treaty which the US signed in 1997
Fallujah. La strage nascosta [Fallujah, The Concealed Massacre] will be shown on RAI News tomorrow November 8th at 07:35 (via HOT BIRDTM statellite, Sky Channel 506 and RAI-3), and rebroadcast by HOT BIRDTM satellite and Sky Channel 506 at 17:00 [5 pm] and over the next two days.
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Posted by: Poe on Nov 8, 2005 6:22 AM
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I understand the complexities of war and the tragedy of war.
I also understand that the US can fight dirty.....and how ruthless we can be.
In advertising, the easiest thing to sell, is human suffering. Social issues can easily spark emotion with a simple catchy headline and a graphic image. Piece of cake. Can put one together in five minutes.
Human suffering and tragedy is what also sells newspapers and network advertising......especially in a time of war. Add to that a very heated political environment, and what we get are very passionate opinions and in many cases, particularly on these blogs, ridiculous personal attacks on total strangers.
Charred bodies hanging from a bridge sells newspapers and makes for a morning conversation in a coffee shop. So does a little Iraqi boy, with no limbs and no family.
Get the cameras and microphones up close on two parents that just found out they lost a son in the war.....and if a political statement is made.....someone is going to run with it.
How many of us really know what's going on in Iraq? Even if you're there, you may not be able to see the whole picture. A soldier who saw those charred bodies hanging from a bridge, may not have the same opinion as another soldier who's been building bridges. A soldier that slaughters a family in a car at a checkpoint, is certainly not going to have the same opinion as a soldier that helped a family build a school for their children.
Outside of the tragedy of war.....the human toll....and we should all be made aware of the human toll......the biggest news from Iraq, in my opinion, is that they have held elections and have a constitution. Far from perfect, but pretty amazing nonetheless.
Cover it anyway you want.....it should be THE news story.
Love it...hate it...debate it.
Ignore it.
Instead, let's get back to the insurgents and abu Ghraib......and white powder.
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» RE: A response to Pepper, from Poe
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: A response to Pepper, from Poe
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: rockpicker on Nov 8, 2005 3:26 PM
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» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: Poe
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: Falang
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: Poe
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: gonzoskismet
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/ Pt 11
Posted by: Mycos
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Posted by: Poe on Nov 11, 2005 6:14 AM
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All roads lead to the United States.
Since you have all the answers....and I admittedly don't.......I'll let you enlighten me with your foresight and wisdom.
I'm just going to throw these out there off the top of my head.
I look forward to you opening up my eyes.
One thing.....I've never seen Fox News....except maybe in a hotel lobby. I have basic cable, 2-22. C-Span is what I watch......especially Washington Review.
Anyway.....on with some questions.
How can we make the world a better place?
Why didn't the UN do anything about Rwanda?
What did Canada do about Rwanda?
What should have been the proper response after 9-11?
What should the US have done to prevent 9-11?
Could Bush have prevented 9-11?
Why did we impose sanctions on Iraq?
What would have happened without the sanctions?
(aside from the loss of Iraqi' life)
Why did Iraq invade Kuwait?
Did Saddam torture people?
Did the US supply him with torture devices?
If I gave you a gun, and you killed someone with that gun, who should be blamed for that person's death?
Why did the US invade Iraq?
What should the world do about al-Qaeda?
What should the world do about North Korea.....or is everything fine in North Korea?
Is North Korea even a threat to anyone?
Is Iran a threat, and if so, what should be done?
What should the world do about the US, if they had the means?
You said I could ask....so I did.
Again....I hope you can "beat" some answers into my pea-brain.
Poe
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» RE: Mycos...enlighten me.
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me.2
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me. Part 1
Posted by: Falang
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me. Part 2
Posted by: Falang
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me. Part 2
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Mycos...enlighten me. Part 2
Posted by: Falang
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Posted by: Wyatt8 on Nov 11, 2005 10:52 AM
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In attempting to drum up Republican support for the 'illegal' torture chambers Mr. Cheney blabbed. As the leader of Senate, it was his responsibility to prevent discussion of classified info. What happened instead was one of the Republican senators spilled the beans to the Washington Post. After all, this was the first acknowledgement from the executive branch that there were off-the-books assets, revealed by none other than the Vice-President himself. The fact that these activities were disclosed in a 'closed Republican forum' did not subject this information to the legal prohibitions against the disclosure of classified material. The vice-president himself had either introduced the material or was knowingly complicit in leaking outside the law. Confirmation of the disclosure publicly confirmed by the former Republican majority leader, Trent Lott.
Any hearing, investigation, or independent inquiry as to the specific senator, who gave the story to the Washington Post, will only tighten the noose around the vice-president. Senator Roberts, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, immediately proclaimed that there would be 'no congressional investigation of the disclosure, and if there was such a investigation, it would not see the light of day'. Once again the CIA has referred the case to the Justice Department. If any crime was committed it was not on the part of whoever gave the story to the Washington Post, it was the fact that the national security secret was disclosed in a Republican partisan meeting. OOPS!!!
It has been interesting to watch how Senator Rockefeller and Congresswoman Jane Harmon, the Ranking Minority Members of the Gang of Eight deflect questions which they, by law, cannot answer. The Iraq War, the War on Terror, and the operations of the American government cannot possibly be debated openly due to the fact that those who know cannot tell, and those who tell are ineptly trying to deceive and spin the truth.
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Posted by: kunzangwangmo on Nov 11, 2005 10:16 PM
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I am a doctor and the assignment Cheney gave me was to go to Iran as a physician. Once in Iran, a camera crew would be filming when an Iranian agent would rush in to say that he knew a secret bunker where the Iranian govt. was developing nuclear weapons. Cheney admitted that the rest of the filming would occur in Hollywood with a mock up of said lab. Clearly, this was an immoral assignment. There was no way that I was going to have the blood of innocent Iranian women and children on my hands, so I refused. When I did so, Cheney threatened the life of my mother. Since my mother had recently told me she would rather die than have me be emotionally blackmailed in this way, I held to my no.
During the course of our about 40 minute talk, one of his secret service officers interrupted us twice. The next week when I was kidnapped in Virginia, raped and tortured for 4 days, I recognized the voice of that officer as one of the rapists.
It is an outrage that Cheney is advocating torture. He has already shown by his actions, that he will stop at nothing, not even the torture of American born CIA personnel in order to get his way. He has a clear conflict of interest in making money off these wars. Are we, as Americans, going to torture people just so that corrupt officials can line their pockets with oil and war profiteering revenues?
Please write your congresspersons to prevent others being tortured as I was. Cheney and Bush should be impeached for lying to force us into war. We are not winning the war on terrorism, torture is terrorism as anyone who had been through it knows. I was raped and subjected to three mock executions, when will this US reign of terror end?
Sincerely,
Sue Arrigo, MD
California medical license G 50197
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» RE: An American Already Tortured By Cheney's Team in the US
Posted by: stoney13
» RE: An American Already Tortured By Cheney's Team in the US
Posted by: tribalogical
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Posted by: Poe on Nov 12, 2005 9:49 AM
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You didn’t enlighten me, though. You played the blame game again. That’s too easy.
I want solutions, damnit! I have a five year old little girl....I want a better world for her future.
Let’s say, whatever political party you support is now running the country. Call the party whatever you want.
Bush, Cheney, consvervatives......theyr’e long gone....dead and buried or in jail.
Let's just say they were never in power to begin with.
But you’re still faced with the same problems......whether they were brought on by the US or not......they still need to be dealt with in some way.
So....enlighten me. Open my mind! It’s your gig now.
How can we make the world a better place?
What would you have done about Rwanda?
What should have been the proper response after 9-11?
What could the US have done to prevent 9-11?
Would you have tried to force Saddam out of Kuwait?
Would you have imposed sanctions on Iraq?
Why did Iraq invade Kuwait?
If left in power, would Saddam ever be a threat to the US?
Did the US supply him with torture devices?
If I gave you a gun, and you killed someone with that gun, who should be blamed for that person's death?
Why did the US invade Iraq?
What should the world do about al-Qaeda?
What should the world do about North Korea.....or is everything fine in North Korea?
Is North Korea even a threat to anyone?
Is Iran a threat, and if so, what should be done?
You're running the show now.....no excuses.....no more blaming....we need solutions.
Go nuts.
Poe
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» RE: Mycos...no excuses...it's your world now.
Posted by: Mycos
» RE: Mycos...no excuses...it's your world now.
Posted by: Poe
» RE: Mycos...no excuses...it's your world now.
Posted by: Mycos
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Posted by: jguenther on Nov 14, 2005 5:46 AM
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Posted by: giles.rj on Nov 14, 2005 6:37 PM
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The real questions are:
- Who established the policy of creating an illegal category of detainees and interrogation techniques and attempted a coverup?
- Who forged the often quoted evidence of weapons of mass destruction?
- Who igmored warnings of 9/11?
- What is the real reason for the Iraq war? The energy policy? Profits for the VP's company?
- Why haven't we gone after Bin Laden? Saudi ties to the Bush administration?
- Is the world a better place since this administration came into power?
THESE ARE THE PERTINENT QUESTIONS --- WHOSE RESEARCHING THE ANSWERS?
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