COMMENTS: 30
New Online Computer Game Exploits Right-Wing Paranoia
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It's January 2011. The GOP is about to assume control of both houses of Congress -- having been voted in by a public deeply suspicious of Democrats after President Barack Obama conducted clandestine talks with President Felipe Calderon of Mexico and Prime Minister Stephen Harper of Canada.
But two days before the new conservative majority is to be sworn in, Obama announces that this Congress will not be seated, that the United States (a creation of "racists and warmongers") will be replaced by a North American Union, that the U.S. Constitution will be dissolved and that private ownership of firearms will be outlawed (as part of a United Nations treaty banning firearms globally). In response, millions rise up, and the Revolution begins.
A Glenn Beck movie project? Perhaps. But it's also the premise for a new online computer game hosted by a Web site called United States of Earth.
In the game's scenario, 20 million armed American "patriots" begin seizing local and federal government offices. These are the same people whose earlier Tea Party protests had been ignored and dismissed by the mainstream media. Now, they post bounties for government employees. There's fighting in every state.
Meanwhile, Lou Dobbs has been disappeared, and Glenn Beck has been found dead of an "aspirin overdose." Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly have been rounded up and Fox News forcibly shut down.
The U.S. military refuses to come to Obama's rescue. His loyalist forces of 40,000 end up controlling merely three counties in Virginia, while an allied force is in charge of three counties near Washington, D.C. The Federal Reserve also controls two of its own counties, as does the Cong (the remnants of the Democratic Congress). A collection of pro-Obama black nationalists and Islamic fundamentalists have a hold on two counties. What can you do as a player? You can join the patriots trying to capture Obama and defeat the Cong.
The Web site notes that this rudimentary World of Warcraft-type multiplayer game -- titled "2011 Obama's Coup Fails" -- is merely "an action-packed, satire-filled" entertainment. But it does say, "If current events keep transpiring as they are, then 2011 Obama's Coup may in fact become a dark chapter in American history."
This game, though, is no right-wing plot to foment anti-Obama paranoia. Its organizers -- who are not identified on the site -- are a small group of Ron Paul-loving libertarians living in Brooklyn, N.Y., according to Michael Russotto, one of this band. He insists the game's designers and editors are not advancing any partisan agenda and that this anti-Obama scenario is one stunt they've devised to bring people into their larger "United States of Earth" project, in which players build their own empires and try to "dominate other members' regimes across real-world maps."
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Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 29, 2009 1:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like it ... Tell me more ... lol
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» and who needs repugs in congress when theres joe lieberman??...
Posted by: Annapurna1
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Posted by: zipper696 on Oct 29, 2009 1:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: xpect Glenn Beck..
Posted by: willymack
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Posted by: Razional Thinker on Oct 29, 2009 4:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't anyone watching the type of crime that is occuring throughout America....particulary with our young people? I am sickened.
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» RE: Whar Kinda Creatures Are We.....
Posted by: madmac10
» RE: Whar Kinda Creatures Are We.....
Posted by: paulaH
» Creatures? We are. . .
Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: Whar Kinda Creatures Are We.....My Apologies
Posted by: Razional Thinker
» Obviously, we're not out doing anything silly...
Posted by: eddie torres
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chaoslegs on Oct 29, 2009 7:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wall Street is turned into a white collar ghetto. Insurance industry executives are rounded up and put in with them. And so on.
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» RE: How about a similar game with this scenario
Posted by: JSquercia
» Buy them an island
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Buy them an island
Posted by: cats.anon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: djnoll on Oct 29, 2009 9:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My grandson (age 13) plays World of Warcraft. It is a fantasy game and he knows it is a fantasy game because of the characters in the game being uniquely non-human in the real world. But, it has made him anti-social, withdrawn, and he only comes alive when he talks about the game. We are very concerned about him. This game discussed in this article does not offer such fantasy distinction.
Therein lies its danger. It advocates a lie (Obama is staging a coup) and encourages people in the form of virtual reality people (not made-up creatures) to stage a revolution. This is nothing short of mental brainwashing of the uneducated, the paranoid, and the very heavily armed right-wing conspiracy nuts.
The designer's spokesman says that they have a version about going after Bush, but that it will come out later. They refuse to identify themselves as the designers and they are stated supporters of Ron Paul, as were the members of the American Nazi party. If they truly had a version going after Bush, why not release it simultaneously? Because it does not exist in all probability and never will.
My husband is a computer geek. Many of the people he is in school with are computer geeks. I have worked in the computer industry on and off for nearly 40 years, and there is one thing I can tell you about game designers - they have egos the size of cyberspace. They brag about the games they design, the games they play, the games they win, and they never miss an opportunity to let everyone know. In addition, it is prominent on just about every resume for a programmer I have ever seen. SO, when game designers of a game like this refuse to identify themselves - I smell a very dirty RAT!
This game will be supported by every Tea Party group, every white supremacy group, every Glenn Beck wannabe, and every idiot who wants to overthrow this government and whose paranoia is being fed by the likes of FOX News, Dick Cheney, and the Religious Right. To these people, this game will not be a game, it will be their worst nightmare scenario come true and feed their intentions of overthrowing our government violently. It will be their training ground, if you will.
Online games, all games including World of Warcraft, have a way of affecting those who play them. They soon become disassociative and isolated from the real world outside the game. The game becomes the reality in which they live, and in this politically charged climate today, this game can present real dangers. We have seen the changes in children who become addicted to violent video games, and this one is both politically indoctrinating and violent. Remember what happened with games like Dungeons and Dragons when it first came out. Remember that the children who have shot up our schools over the years were all involved in online games. Imagine what kind of mindset the young people going into our military would have if they were addicted to this game.
Sometimes games are not just games, and in this case and in this time, this is not a game - it is indoctrination by a shadow group who will not identify themselves. Be very cautious if you dismiss this as fluff. It is not! It is just this side of treason!
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» I may have challenged you in another time, about other art forms, twisting or inspiring bad behavior
Posted by: blurider
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Posted by: willymack on Oct 29, 2009 11:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The name is different; the poison's the same.
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Posted by: eddie torres on Oct 29, 2009 1:23 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah, way to appeal to a 6th-grader's economic sophistication. Uh, where is all this "bounty" coming from?
All these white rural out-of-work foreclosure-kings + Astroturf Tea Baggers suddenly armed and flush with cash? Destroying local government for sport and profit? There's no secret network of plutonomic billionaires funding the overthrow of Obama? Hmmmm....
You've also gotta love the New York mook / Sopranos language chosen by "US of Earth" founders: if you pay real money to get extras and benefits from the game people, you are called a "Made Member".
Got mobster ties, anyone?
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Posted by: eddie torres on Oct 29, 2009 1:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: AcePilot2009 on Oct 29, 2009 8:03 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: VIDEO GAME REFLECTS REALITY
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: VIDEO GAME REFLECTS REALITY
Posted by: SgtCedar
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Posted by: etisoppa on Oct 29, 2009 8:49 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are you "write-class, chat-class" people complete airheads!! (And I am a double-degreed chat-class guy) Have you no idea the actual conspiracies afoot in our/(your) own county(ies)??These guys are just going to pull the rug out from under you all.
They are going to frame and sell you all out to their prophesies. And the twisted irony is that, since they are the ones actively involved in staging and attempting to bring about the negatives of these prophesies, then by these same prophesies they are the negatives to be opposed. But there is no opposition. They are going to have their cake and it too!!
It is just so unbelievable!!! Bush had set-up all the machinery needed for this. Many, especially on the "left" thought that Bush would be the one to implement martial law.
Do you underestimate the depth of machinations these people are capable of??
Obama could be a patsy, or a full knowing participant, or a half-knowing participant who thing he can out-maneuver those with such fascist-like agendas, or he may think his support team has the resources and the smarts, they may think they have, or they all may have been feed just the right amount of information to think this.... it is really hard to say at this point.
So you keep your heads in the sand your feet on the plush carpet, , they will pull-out carpet and floor leaving you there head in the bucket of sand, nothing under your feet... not a nice position to be in.
Noble Prize for almost no actual work?? " And He, The One, shall make a peace that last for only 7 years... and the Seals shall be broken.. setting forth.." Have you no idea what is happening!!! Martial Law is what The One is suppose to do !!! They may just out-circle, out-resource and force him into it!! ( all above assumptions noted) And many outside "powers" are joining into the fray!!
And if the prophesies are to happen then let it happen with the real thing. No trying to “frame” innocent individuals/people into their version of “prophesy” to have the less sophisticated taken-in by the schemes and manipulations of these “framers” in a dishonorable, sleaze-ball display of un-Jesus like low-character!!
It is so disgraceful!!
Christians like myself, who are Jesus -centered, look on these things as distant non central events, and could not possibly center our live around "bringing these negatives into being" They are to be opposed un-categorically. And if we defeat them then that is a plus for mankind. It would mean that we are much further ahead on the "salvation road" than would have been projected at this time.
I think we are. But we have to demonstrate it. And we cannot demonstrate it with your heads in the sand
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» RE: Far-out??? Here is the wisdom.
Posted by: keystone999
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Posted by: Steroidian on Oct 30, 2009 2:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cigarettes for Sale here
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Posted by: ClassAct on Oct 30, 2009 11:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What the right wing rank-and-file does not know is that the conservative coup began long ago with the death of FDR. American business leaders knew that if WWII ended with FDR alive, they would wind up in the docket at Nuremberg for their financial and material support of the Third Reich. From the command positions in the theaters of war, American business elites drug it out as long as possible until FDR died, then moved to wrap it up to confront the commies ... our erstwhile allies. Within hours of his death, from positions within FDR's bipartisan cabinet, they began to remove people within the bureaucracy who supported the New Deal under charges of communism; communism being anything that any right-thinking businessman charges with communism. This complete takeover of the government from within continued until 1961, when JFK, unable to get anything through Congress because of the non-cooperation of LBJ, began making his own more public-spirited appointments to the bureaucracy. This, of course, ended on November 22, 1963, when Texas oil barons and the John Birch Society they headed were able to join forces with the mob, CIA, and FBI to end Camelot ... all with the continued protection of government. The threat to this consolidation of government represented by RFK was cut short in June 1968. Since then the right-wing takeover of government and its official voice has been unchanged and almost unchallenged. Every shake-up at some agency or another simply drives out the public-spirited government workers to replace them with more right-wing cronies. For a full narrative of this see:
The Nazi Hydra in America
Consider wisely ye looney followers of self-named "libertarianism."
One reply sniffed that this historical argument, although necessarily brief, was simply a left-wing "conspiracy theory," without bothering to provide evidence to refute the link, which is sourced by 100 books. Any form of social science hypothesis can be dismissed by calling it a "conspiracy theory," but as regards that notion, consider that some commentators of the late 19th and early 20th century held that Napoleon had been killed by the Bourbons to stifle any further resurgence of a militant French Republic. Most historians dismissed this as the "conspiracy theory" of the day, but just in the last decade, exhamination of Napoleon's body confirmed that he had been poisoned with arsenic. Sometimes those "conspiracies" are facts, and it is naive to dismiss a cogent argument as a conspiracy theory out of hand.
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Posted by: etisoppa on Oct 31, 2009 8:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
++++++++
“literally the political anti-Christ” !!!?? No bud, the REAL Anti-Christ. That is what they think. And can I blame them? In preparation for Obama's candidacy, and especially after he has become President the relentless assault that us neuron assault technology victims (something you do not discuss) the relentless 24/7 assault we have been enduring is unbelievable!! I could not believe that there were those who saw him as a peacemaker.
“live in an alternative universe of their own political paranoia.”
No it is you folks who are living in an “alternative universe of” you own rarefied air.
You have no idea of what is going on in the REAL WORLD.
Makes me wonder if it is the President, the Chief in Commander over the CIA and all USA assets who has control over those “other” assets or some other factions? Swine-flue breaks out on his trip to Mexico??
And this is the competency you people have to offer? ““literally the political anti-Christ”?? “literally and “political”?? These rightwing people are going to run circles around you folks. You don’t stand a chance.
Just as well. For people like us it is just one bag of right/left wing crap assault for the same bag of crap assault. Maybe you are too close to tell the forest from the tree , but where we in the real world stand they both, tree and forest, smells like anti-human/ anti- individual rights to us.
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 5, 2009 3:57 PM
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 5, 2009 4:04 PM
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Posted by: craigman on Nov 7, 2009 3:02 PM
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web hosting and
website design solutions and unify.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Oct 29, 2009 1:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like it ... Tell me more ... lol
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» and who needs repugs in congress when theres joe lieberman??...
Posted by: Annapurna1
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Posted by: zipper696 on Oct 29, 2009 1:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: xpect Glenn Beck..
Posted by: willymack
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Posted by: Razional Thinker on Oct 29, 2009 4:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't anyone watching the type of crime that is occuring throughout America....particulary with our young people? I am sickened.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Whar Kinda Creatures Are We.....
Posted by: madmac10
» RE: Whar Kinda Creatures Are We.....
Posted by: paulaH
» Creatures? We are. . .
Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: Whar Kinda Creatures Are We.....My Apologies
Posted by: Razional Thinker
» Obviously, we're not out doing anything silly...
Posted by: eddie torres
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chaoslegs on Oct 29, 2009 7:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wall Street is turned into a white collar ghetto. Insurance industry executives are rounded up and put in with them. And so on.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: How about a similar game with this scenario
Posted by: JSquercia
» Buy them an island
Posted by: eddie torres
» RE: Buy them an island
Posted by: cats.anon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: djnoll on Oct 29, 2009 9:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My grandson (age 13) plays World of Warcraft. It is a fantasy game and he knows it is a fantasy game because of the characters in the game being uniquely non-human in the real world. But, it has made him anti-social, withdrawn, and he only comes alive when he talks about the game. We are very concerned about him. This game discussed in this article does not offer such fantasy distinction.
Therein lies its danger. It advocates a lie (Obama is staging a coup) and encourages people in the form of virtual reality people (not made-up creatures) to stage a revolution. This is nothing short of mental brainwashing of the uneducated, the paranoid, and the very heavily armed right-wing conspiracy nuts.
The designer's spokesman says that they have a version about going after Bush, but that it will come out later. They refuse to identify themselves as the designers and they are stated supporters of Ron Paul, as were the members of the American Nazi party. If they truly had a version going after Bush, why not release it simultaneously? Because it does not exist in all probability and never will.
My husband is a computer geek. Many of the people he is in school with are computer geeks. I have worked in the computer industry on and off for nearly 40 years, and there is one thing I can tell you about game designers - they have egos the size of cyberspace. They brag about the games they design, the games they play, the games they win, and they never miss an opportunity to let everyone know. In addition, it is prominent on just about every resume for a programmer I have ever seen. SO, when game designers of a game like this refuse to identify themselves - I smell a very dirty RAT!
This game will be supported by every Tea Party group, every white supremacy group, every Glenn Beck wannabe, and every idiot who wants to overthrow this government and whose paranoia is being fed by the likes of FOX News, Dick Cheney, and the Religious Right. To these people, this game will not be a game, it will be their worst nightmare scenario come true and feed their intentions of overthrowing our government violently. It will be their training ground, if you will.
Online games, all games including World of Warcraft, have a way of affecting those who play them. They soon become disassociative and isolated from the real world outside the game. The game becomes the reality in which they live, and in this politically charged climate today, this game can present real dangers. We have seen the changes in children who become addicted to violent video games, and this one is both politically indoctrinating and violent. Remember what happened with games like Dungeons and Dragons when it first came out. Remember that the children who have shot up our schools over the years were all involved in online games. Imagine what kind of mindset the young people going into our military would have if they were addicted to this game.
Sometimes games are not just games, and in this case and in this time, this is not a game - it is indoctrination by a shadow group who will not identify themselves. Be very cautious if you dismiss this as fluff. It is not! It is just this side of treason!
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» I may have challenged you in another time, about other art forms, twisting or inspiring bad behavior
Posted by: blurider
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Oct 29, 2009 11:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The name is different; the poison's the same.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: eddie torres on Oct 29, 2009 1:23 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah, way to appeal to a 6th-grader's economic sophistication. Uh, where is all this "bounty" coming from?
All these white rural out-of-work foreclosure-kings + Astroturf Tea Baggers suddenly armed and flush with cash? Destroying local government for sport and profit? There's no secret network of plutonomic billionaires funding the overthrow of Obama? Hmmmm....
You've also gotta love the New York mook / Sopranos language chosen by "US of Earth" founders: if you pay real money to get extras and benefits from the game people, you are called a "Made Member".
Got mobster ties, anyone?
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Posted by: eddie torres on Oct 29, 2009 1:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: AcePilot2009 on Oct 29, 2009 8:03 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: VIDEO GAME REFLECTS REALITY
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: VIDEO GAME REFLECTS REALITY
Posted by: SgtCedar
Comments are closed-
Posted by: etisoppa on Oct 29, 2009 8:49 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are you "write-class, chat-class" people complete airheads!! (And I am a double-degreed chat-class guy) Have you no idea the actual conspiracies afoot in our/(your) own county(ies)??These guys are just going to pull the rug out from under you all.
They are going to frame and sell you all out to their prophesies. And the twisted irony is that, since they are the ones actively involved in staging and attempting to bring about the negatives of these prophesies, then by these same prophesies they are the negatives to be opposed. But there is no opposition. They are going to have their cake and it too!!
It is just so unbelievable!!! Bush had set-up all the machinery needed for this. Many, especially on the "left" thought that Bush would be the one to implement martial law.
Do you underestimate the depth of machinations these people are capable of??
Obama could be a patsy, or a full knowing participant, or a half-knowing participant who thing he can out-maneuver those with such fascist-like agendas, or he may think his support team has the resources and the smarts, they may think they have, or they all may have been feed just the right amount of information to think this.... it is really hard to say at this point.
So you keep your heads in the sand your feet on the plush carpet, , they will pull-out carpet and floor leaving you there head in the bucket of sand, nothing under your feet... not a nice position to be in.
Noble Prize for almost no actual work?? " And He, The One, shall make a peace that last for only 7 years... and the Seals shall be broken.. setting forth.." Have you no idea what is happening!!! Martial Law is what The One is suppose to do !!! They may just out-circle, out-resource and force him into it!! ( all above assumptions noted) And many outside "powers" are joining into the fray!!
And if the prophesies are to happen then let it happen with the real thing. No trying to “frame” innocent individuals/people into their version of “prophesy” to have the less sophisticated taken-in by the schemes and manipulations of these “framers” in a dishonorable, sleaze-ball display of un-Jesus like low-character!!
It is so disgraceful!!
Christians like myself, who are Jesus -centered, look on these things as distant non central events, and could not possibly center our live around "bringing these negatives into being" They are to be opposed un-categorically. And if we defeat them then that is a plus for mankind. It would mean that we are much further ahead on the "salvation road" than would have been projected at this time.
I think we are. But we have to demonstrate it. And we cannot demonstrate it with your heads in the sand
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Far-out??? Here is the wisdom.
Posted by: keystone999
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Steroidian on Oct 30, 2009 2:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cigarettes for Sale here
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: ClassAct on Oct 30, 2009 11:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What the right wing rank-and-file does not know is that the conservative coup began long ago with the death of FDR. American business leaders knew that if WWII ended with FDR alive, they would wind up in the docket at Nuremberg for their financial and material support of the Third Reich. From the command positions in the theaters of war, American business elites drug it out as long as possible until FDR died, then moved to wrap it up to confront the commies ... our erstwhile allies. Within hours of his death, from positions within FDR's bipartisan cabinet, they began to remove people within the bureaucracy who supported the New Deal under charges of communism; communism being anything that any right-thinking businessman charges with communism. This complete takeover of the government from within continued until 1961, when JFK, unable to get anything through Congress because of the non-cooperation of LBJ, began making his own more public-spirited appointments to the bureaucracy. This, of course, ended on November 22, 1963, when Texas oil barons and the John Birch Society they headed were able to join forces with the mob, CIA, and FBI to end Camelot ... all with the continued protection of government. The threat to this consolidation of government represented by RFK was cut short in June 1968. Since then the right-wing takeover of government and its official voice has been unchanged and almost unchallenged. Every shake-up at some agency or another simply drives out the public-spirited government workers to replace them with more right-wing cronies. For a full narrative of this see:
The Nazi Hydra in America
Consider wisely ye looney followers of self-named "libertarianism."
One reply sniffed that this historical argument, although necessarily brief, was simply a left-wing "conspiracy theory," without bothering to provide evidence to refute the link, which is sourced by 100 books. Any form of social science hypothesis can be dismissed by calling it a "conspiracy theory," but as regards that notion, consider that some commentators of the late 19th and early 20th century held that Napoleon had been killed by the Bourbons to stifle any further resurgence of a militant French Republic. Most historians dismissed this as the "conspiracy theory" of the day, but just in the last decade, exhamination of Napoleon's body confirmed that he had been poisoned with arsenic. Sometimes those "conspiracies" are facts, and it is naive to dismiss a cogent argument as a conspiracy theory out of hand.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: etisoppa on Oct 31, 2009 8:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
++++++++
“literally the political anti-Christ” !!!?? No bud, the REAL Anti-Christ. That is what they think. And can I blame them? In preparation for Obama's candidacy, and especially after he has become President the relentless assault that us neuron assault technology victims (something you do not discuss) the relentless 24/7 assault we have been enduring is unbelievable!! I could not believe that there were those who saw him as a peacemaker.
“live in an alternative universe of their own political paranoia.”
No it is you folks who are living in an “alternative universe of” you own rarefied air.
You have no idea of what is going on in the REAL WORLD.
Makes me wonder if it is the President, the Chief in Commander over the CIA and all USA assets who has control over those “other” assets or some other factions? Swine-flue breaks out on his trip to Mexico??
And this is the competency you people have to offer? ““literally the political anti-Christ”?? “literally and “political”?? These rightwing people are going to run circles around you folks. You don’t stand a chance.
Just as well. For people like us it is just one bag of right/left wing crap assault for the same bag of crap assault. Maybe you are too close to tell the forest from the tree , but where we in the real world stand they both, tree and forest, smells like anti-human/ anti- individual rights to us.
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 5, 2009 3:57 PM
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 5, 2009 4:04 PM
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Posted by: craigman on Nov 7, 2009 3:02 PM
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