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Five New Reasons (and One Old One) Why We Must Close Guantanamo Now

A surprising poll shows that by wide margins, Americans don't want to see Gitmo shut down -- here's why it should be closed forever.
June 6, 2009  |  
 
 
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For Boudemiene, the torture continued right until he cleared for release. He told Rather that it seemed to be a chance for guards to "take their last shots.” This also echoes claims by another attorney who represents prisoners at Guatanamo, Ahmed Ghappour, who told reporters earlier this year that, rather than ending torture, his clients reported "a ramping up in abuse" after Obama was elected, including "beatings, the dislocation of limbs, spraying of pepper spray into closed cells, applying pepper spray to toilet paper and over-force-feeding detainees who are on hunger strike."

"If one was to use one's imagination, (one) could say that these traumatized, and for lack of a better word barbaric, guards were just basically trying to get their kicks in right now for fear that they won't be able to later," Ghappour said.

Reason #2: Prisoners Are Still Committing Suicide

This week brought news that a Yemeni prisoner, who once starved himself to 86 pounds to protest his detention, was found dead in his cell on Monday in an "apparent suicide," more than seven years after being brought to Guantánamo in February 2002.

According to the Associated Press, authorities found "31-year-old Muhammad Ahmad Abdallah Salih unresponsive and not breathing in his cell Monday night."

"In a Tuesday statement, the military says the detainee was pronounced dead by a doctor after 'extensive lifesaving measures had been exhausted.' "

"Like the other prisoners who died of 'apparent suicides' at Guantánamo," wrote Guantánamo expert Andy Worthington, "Salih had been a long-term hunger striker, refusing food as the only method available to protest his long imprisonment without charge or trial.

"According to weight records issued by the Pentagon in 2007, he weighed 124 pounds on his arrival at Guantánamo, but at one point in December 2005, during the largest hunger strike in the prison's history, his weight dropped to just 86 pounds."

Prisoner suicides at Guantánamo were treated as PR problems by the Bush administration -- a former camp commander, Rear Adm. Harry Harris, famously said in 2006 following the suicide of three prisoners, "I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of warfare waged against us." Will the Obama administration respond differently? Will it respond at all?

Reason #3: The Surreal Plight of Guantánamo's Uighurs

When the history of injustice at Guantánamo Bay is written, a whole section will be reserved for the truly unbelievable story of Guantánamo's Uighurs, 17 Chinese Muslims who have been held at Guantánamo since 2002.

Perhaps the most important thing to know about the Uighurs is that they are innocent -- and for a long time now, nobody has argued otherwise; not the Bush administration, not the Obama administration. So why do they remain imprisoned at Guantánamo? Officially, the reason is that if they were to be sent to China, they would likely face political persecution.

This might be a fine reason not to send the Uighurs to China. But it's hardly a good reason to keep them locked up when they have long been declared not guilty, which is exactly what the Obama administration is doing.

Things were looking up for the Uighurs last October, when a federal judge ordered that they be released from Guantánamo and resettled in the United States. Indeed, there are even communities here that have offered to take them in, outside Washington as well as in Tallahassee, Fla. But a federal court reversed that decision in February, and now the Obama administration is engaged in fresh attempts to block their release.

Last Friday, according to Worthington, the Obama Department of Justice delivered "33 pages of unconstitutional hogwash directed at the Supreme Court … in which no stone of dubious legality was left unturned in the administration's desperate and unprincipled attempts to mimic its predecessors by preventing 17 Uighurs at Guantánamo from being resettled in the United States."

Unbelievably, according to the government, the Uighurs "are not really being detained any longer." Their "continued presence at Guantánamo Bay is not unlawful detention, but rather the consequence of their lawful exclusion from the United States, under the constitutional exercise of authority by the political branches, coupled with the unavailability of another country willing to accept them."


Liliana Segura is an AlterNet staff writer.
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Comments are closed-

Utter caca
Posted by: Perry Logan on Jun 6, 2009 2:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would be flat-out skeptical of this poll. We have seen this all before.

During the Bush II years, whenever some new administration atrocity was uncovered, a poll would almost immediately appear in some corporate venue, showing conclusively that Americans were overwhelmingly in favor of it.

The pattern is clear. The USA poll is almost certainly complete and utter caca.


Swine!

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» RE: Utter caca Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: Utter caca Posted by: willymack
» I really hope this is not true Posted by: truthlover

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Not that this is an original idea...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren on Jun 6, 2009 2:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But my first thought about the poll is it is bunk. Complete bull shit. Haven't people learned yet that media lies?

Let me repeat that, newspapers lie.

They make up facts and they ignore what is really going on, they quote the polls that please them and ignore all things that disagree with their narrow world view.

I don't trust the poll, I don't trust the paper and 'liberal' media should not either.

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» You are lying or crazy. Posted by: brunowe

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Black Sites
Posted by: Sparks56 on Jun 6, 2009 3:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am far less concerned about Gitmo, we know about it, than I am about the many "black sites" we don't know about. Where are they? How many are there? Who is being held there? Free and open societies do not have secret prisons. Ergo........

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» RE: Black Sites Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Black Sites Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Black Sites Posted by: rsteeb
» RE: Black Sites Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Black Sites Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Black Sites Posted by: Sparks56

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Liliana, the BIG reason they don't want it closed: They still believe the official story of 911
Posted by: pfgetty on Jun 6, 2009 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans are still scared. They still remember that horrible day, the day that began the War on Terror.
And they have been told, by the press, over and over again that bad people from the Middle East brought us that day.

What they don't know, because you Liliana and the rest of the press including Alternet won't tell them, is that the story of 911 is a lie. 911 was an INSIDE JOB.

The government has been lying. The press has been lying. Our political leaders have been lying. You are lying.
Ok, maybe you are just ignorant of the facts.

Here is a fact: nanothermite, an explosive material, has been found the in the dust samples taken from the collapse of the WTC. Nanothermite is a very unique material and is not commercially available. Each formulation of nanothermite has a signature, a fingerprint, that is one of a kind and can be traced back to the makers. Only scientists in research labs connected to the military have made this stuff. And it was found in huge quantities, if the quantities in the dust were extrapolated to the entire amount of dust.

In short, there is no way for that nanothermite to be in the dust samples unless somebody placed it in the WTC buildings before the attacks. Period. And that means government complicity. And coverup. And that means that we were not under attack by Islamic extremists.

Why aren't you telling us about this, instead of me?

If you want to know more about this, go to www.ae911truth.org or www.911truth.org. If you think I'm out of whack, then see the thousands of distinguished scientists and retired military and CIA people and others who know this story as I do.... at www.patriotsquestion911.org.

But somebody must bring this information to the public. If you don't like continuing torture, you don't like rendition or illegal wars and occupations, if you don't like the Patriot Act, and you want Gitmo closed, then do the one and only thing that will stop all of this: tell the story about the dust samples, or of hundreds of other bits of evidence that prove the 911 story is a lie.

As you have told us, the 911 story of lies continues to affect America and the world in devastating ways. It will not stop until we know the truth.
And with this new evidence, the truth is irrefutable.
The only thing remaining: the story MUST get out!
And Liliana, if you don't do it, and Alternet won't do it, who WILL?

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» RE: You really lost me here Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Thanks, LeftWright Posted by: pfgetty
» Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: weathered

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Don Quixot
Posted by: Don Quixot on Jun 6, 2009 5:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Neither nazis nor communists ever had something like Gitmo

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» RE: Don Quixot Posted by: lanerdion

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The commander in chief can still do a lot.
Posted by: gorkman on Jun 6, 2009 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I cannot understand why the President doesn't move forward on this.
He can do other things as Commander in Chief even if congress is backstabbing him.

1. He can ensure that mistreatment of prisoners stop. And he can issue orders to increase their quality of life.

2. He can release the evidence (or lack thereof) we have against the detainees so people of the world can judge for themselves if they are justifiably imprisioned.

3. He can obey the court order and release the Abu Ghraib photos. I, for one, do not believe his rhetoric about inflaming anti-American sentiment. That was already done the moment the tortured victims were released.

He can give one of his eloquent speeches as he releases the photos, where he clearly puts the responsibility of American trangressions of Human Rights of the shoulders of the previous administration. I think that would alleviate anti-American sentiment. And most important...

4. He can back up those words by ordering the justice department to conduct open investigations into the crimes committed by BushCo, and conducting appropriate procections pending their outcome.


Obama talks about moving forward, and not looking behind.
But there is an elephant in the room standing behind him. A big, lying, torturing, blood soaked republican, elephant standing right behind him casting a huge shadow on the path forward he wants to take. He must deal with it, or he won't be able to move forward.

By not doing so forcefully and forthrightly, I believe he is tainting himself with the crimes of the previous administration.

There will soon come a time when President Obama will be unable to divorce Amercia from the crimes of George W. Bush. The Political Right in this country wil soon be able to do a 'Full Pelosi' on him compromise him with their crimes in order to cover their political asses.
And that will very much inflame sentiments against us, and endanger America and the troops that are defending us abroad.

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If This Poll is True - And I Suspect It Is - It Shows One Thing Very Clearly
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Jun 6, 2009 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The majority of Americans, are Gutless, Brainwashed, Immoral Cowards Very Effectively Controlled By Fear By Their Government and Media.

If only they knew the Truth.

It will come back to haunt them.

The Evil Comes From Within and Like a Cancer it will consume from within.

Americans call themselves Christian but not only Condone Torture - they actually Want it To Continue.

They Couldn't Give a Fuck - about Anyone else except their own Precious Pussies.

Beneath Contempt

The USA itself has become a Prison Camp of Fear

Tony

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» RE: I think the poll is bull shit Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I think the poll is bull shit Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: I think the poll is bull shit Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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I wouldn't be surprised if its true.
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Jun 6, 2009 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is an appalling number of 'mainstream' thinkers out there...

who basically, if you asked them, would tell you to your face:

"fuck everybody else, its all about me"

tell any of those people to be
...responsible for their actions ("Freedom is nobody trying to catch you!")
...caring about others
...interested in some personal inconvenience or social slight risk to 'do the right thing'
& you'll be called everything from 'bleeding heart' to 'stupid & foolishly unpragmatic'...

seriously.
the narcissism, xenophobia & sheer self-interest of people never fail to astonish me

& a *lot* of it comes *straight* out of mainstream MEDIA CULTURE...

not just the polls, but the drumbeat of 'fuck you, gimme mine' that saturates magazines, tv, films, books...

if its selfish and full of assholery...
you can be sure its got an appreciative paying audience.


perspective, people.


Perspective.

The Jeff Farias Show: streams FREE & LIVE Mon-Fri, 6-9pmEDT

FREE podcast
"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.
"Violence can only be concealed by a Lie, & the Lie can only be maintained by Violence." ... "Any man, who has once proclaimed Violence as his Method, is inevitably forced to take the Lie as his Principle" – Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire.

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Sick
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jun 6, 2009 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe the poll. Americans are idiots, and most of them are evil.
52% of Americans, or 71%, depending on the polls, actually believe that TORTURE IS ACCEPTABLE.

You Americans are sick.

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» RE: Should I poll my neighbors Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Sick - Undecided Posted by: VZEQICVA

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If YOU Personally Do Not Stand Up and Shout And Complain About The Torture You Have Lost All Rights
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Jun 6, 2009 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You Yourself can be arrested on any pretence - without committing any crime

And You Yourself can be imprisoned without Charge - and Tortured For The Rest Of Your Life

Sure it takes courage to complain

But the Alternative is Far Worse

Tony

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This author is mentally retarded to cite a stupid poll. Polls mean nothing.
Posted by: superfeduphoosier on Jun 6, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the end, it's big government that will call the shots with their corporate buddies as their henchmen. Obama would be better off facing IMPEACHMENT for LYING to the American people and reneging on his promise to close GITMO. Bob Barr has better brains than the idiots in Washington and would have called for an immediate shutdown of GITMO, no questions asked ! To all you Obama voters, you're the LOSERS ! OOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! LOL ! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! LOL !

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Irrelevant
Posted by: docg on Jun 6, 2009 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not one single reason you've given is relevant to the issue at hand. This is the sort of thing that gives us liberals a bad name. Gitmo is a prison, a facility, nothing more. It also happens to be a very convenient facility for holding people who could be extremely dangerous. The American public understands that but you don't. Why feed into the "knee-jerk-liberal" thinking of people like Gingrich and Limbaugh?

Every single issue you raised can be dealt with through changes of policy. I heartily agree that all such policies ought to be changed, that's a no-brainer. But to attach the policies to a particular facility, more for ideological reasons than anything else, is exactly the sort of thing that has given liberals a bad name for far too long.

"Our failure to get beyond the political correctness thing, our failure to think more critically, deeply, logically and dispassionately about the world we now live in -- that's the problem. I like my fellow Democrats, I'm proud to be one of them. I admire my president. However: can we drop all the kid stuff and finally: GROW UP??????????"
from Mole in the Ground, http://amoleintheground.blogspot.com

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» This is absurd Posted by: truthlover

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JT Barrie
Posted by: rimchamp77 on Jun 6, 2009 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IF you phrase a poll just right you can get "legitimate" results to support your worldview. You can ask people whether they want murderers locked up with mandatory minimums and they will say yes by more than 4-1. Ask them for a tax increase to pay for locking up mostly drug offenders and they will reject the measure by 3-2.

If you falsely associate Guantanamo prisoners with the half dozen or so serious mass murderers who are basically a version of pond scum and no one will want them housed next door [except the ones who recognize false associations - like readers of my book].

Actually if you phrased a poll honestly and informed them that nearly all prisoners detained had no hearings to determine innocence and asked if they should be released the poll numbers might be embarrassingly high in favor. Of course that's why such polls never get funded. It's like polling people on whether there should be actually measurable standards for the FDA and DEA for keeping drugs on the market or impose restrictions. Such a measure - if enacted - would end the drug war, get a lot of worthless drugs off the shelves, and open up the drug market to lower priced drugs.

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NOT TO SOUND NAIVE
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 6, 2009 10:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The promise to close Guantanamo got Obama alot of votes. That's reason enough to get moving and close the place. It's an albatross on our reputaton which is not at an all time high anyway. This past week in the Middle East was a huge success for Obama. Why not stay on the roll. This awful place defines us. Americans deserve better and most of the prisoners never did belong in prison. If they do, we have plenty of jails. Thanks, ANNA

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A disgrace and a source of everlasting shame
Posted by: willymack on Jun 6, 2009 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's not forget that the prisoners at Guantanamo are there ILLEGALLY, without charges, and without anything resembling due process. This is a crime against humanity by anyone's definition.
Let's not forget those unfortunates have been there for seven years.
Let's not forget that the stated reasons for their imprisonment are BOGUS, just as the brutal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan are.
We'll probably never recover whatever good will we once had worldwide, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what's morally and legally right.
Close the base at Guantanamo. Give it back to Cuba, no strings attached. GITMO has a negligible stragegic or defense value, which can easily be taken up by Puerto Rico.
Relesase the prisoners with our apologies. Take them to wherever they want to go. Whatever bullshit rationale for their imprisonment there was has been completely shattered by our blatent disregard for international law. Giving them some money would be a nice gesture, and a drop in the bucket compared to what's been pissed away in the name of "security".
Begin a rapid withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. No need for elaborate explanations or hand-wringing. Anyone with half a brain here knows we're in those two unfortunate nations ILLEGALLY, anyway.
Start spending the ten billion a month we've been burning on illegal "wars" on health care, education, and badly neglected social programs, here at home.
If our "leaders" are too gutless to prosecute the bush crime cartel, they can at least expose them for the evil bastards they are.
Maybe then we can begin to hold our heads up and have some hope for a peaceful future.

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Don't Shut Gitmo Down!
Posted by: Ted Voth Jr on Jun 6, 2009 1:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's perfect for the Cheney administration and the Wall St bankers!

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Land of the free and the brave?
Posted by: Hans B on Jun 6, 2009 4:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this continues much longer, make that "the fearful and the slave". The country with the biggest military in history suspending all it believes in out of fear of a handful of boxcutter-wielding cavedwellers.

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Obama is bogus
Posted by: archives@uwyo.edu on Jun 6, 2009 5:20 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama was paid by Wall Street to betray the country.

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» RE: Obama is bogus Posted by: weathered
» RE: Obama is bogus Posted by: VZEQICVA

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its much worse than just fearmongering...
Posted by: Annapurna1 on Jun 7, 2009 1:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i strongly suspect that many americans support bu$hco fascism not out of fear of terrorism.. but for strictly selfish economic reasons...the police state "anti-terrorism" policy puts the fear of god (and "god" doesnt mean terrorists either) into ppl.. making them into a docile..compliant..and most of all cheap..workforce...the respondents of that poll are simply worried about things like their 401ks' that would benefit from cheap labour...cheney claims that fascism is necessary to protect americans against terrorists.. while the respondents think that fascism is necessary to protect their investments against lazy goldbricks and welfare queens...

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There was a time when 80% of Americans polled thought it was a good idea
Posted by: kettleblack on Jun 7, 2009 6:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... to go to War in Iraq.

Poll numbers change when truth is recognized.

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Tiffany & co
Posted by: TiffanyJewellery on Jun 7, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is universally acknowledged that Tiffany Jewellery are indispensable to us.On no account can we ignore the value of Tiffany and Silver Jewellery.

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Tiffany & co
Posted by: TiffanyJewellery on Jun 7, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is universally acknowledged that Tiffany Jewellery are indispensable to us.On no account can we ignore the value of Tiffany and Silver Jewellery.

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Tiffany & co
Posted by: TiffanyJewellery on Jun 7, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is universally acknowledged that Tiffany Jewellery are indispensable to us.On no account can we ignore the value of Tiffany and Silver Jewellery.

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Before we close it....
Posted by: AdamDunny on Jun 7, 2009 6:13 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before we close it, I think Bush, Cheney and the rest of the Regime (including that whack job McCain) should be locked in cells there with no food and limited water THEN abandon the camp! Wouldnt that be a fitting end! LOL

Russ
Is your ISP watching?

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Exactly who did they poll for this?
Posted by: Pirate1 on Jun 7, 2009 6:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who listen to right wing talk radio all day? Most of the people being held were just grabbed and sent there by US soldiers with maybe a high school education who couldn't speak Arabic and just assumed these guys looked suspicious... or who didn't understand when yelled at in English to stop or whatever, so to "show them who was boss" they get sent off as war prisoners. Most were farmers, 'til their farms were destroyed, or shop keepers, restauratuers and such until their places of work were erased from the planet by bored troops seeing if they could knock the place down with just 50 calibre fire... Then they get to Gitmo and the people there don't know the circumstances of detention and apply SOP tactics to extract information. The vast majority of these folks have done nothing more than have the misfortune to be interogated in English by some green, gung ho Marine or Infantryman who then got pissed off because the man or woman couldn't respond in English. Listen to some of the winter soldier stories if you think this is far fetched. People get sent to prison, raped, even killed for nothing more than not being bilingual and pissing off a miserable grunt, sweltering in 120 degree afternoon heat... it's an ugly thing we are doing in the world in the name of gawd and "freedom".

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With Obama or without Obama, Gitmo must be closed.
Posted by: Christopher Hobe Morrison on Jun 10, 2009 4:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
President Obama must be given a certain amount of leeway, but Guantanamo must be closed one way or another. If the poll is wrong that is wonderful but it doesn't matter. Even if the poll is right the place must be closed because it a standing insult to America's prestige and moral standing. All the people there must be taken before legitimate courts of justice and tried in an open court, with the charges fully listed, the witnesses known, and the defendants have to have the right to cross-examine them and to see and question all evidence against them.

If convicted, and note I say if and not when, they have to be put in a legitimate prison and if America can't accept prisoners it should not have taken them into custody in the first place. The idea that America's supermax prisoners aren't secure enough is stupid. The US doesn't want to keep these prisoners, but it wants other countries to keep them for it after it has been treating the governments and peoples of these countries as if they were serfs.

In any case, the so-called War on Terror was not declared by Congress against an enemy as a state of war is defined in the American Constitution. It is an eternal war against an unamed enemy, declared unilaterally by one administration and waged through a climate of fear created by that administration. It reminds me of the way the nazis used the fire at the Reichstag to destroy what was left of German democracy. I am not accusing Bush of being a nazi, of course, and in any case after eight years of fear and snake oil the American people caught onto him. This may be simply a hangover from the big drunk of the Bush years.

I hope Obama will live up to the obligations he has set for himself, but the reasons that people voted for Obama are more important than is Obama. Yet I hope people will give Obama the benefit of the doubt as long as possible, because he always seems to know what he is doing even when it isn't apparent to all of us. We will have to see, but we can't wait for other people to do what is right just because we have a decent president now. We must do it ourselves and hope Obama supports us.

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Polls can be managed
Posted by: Democritus on Jun 10, 2009 4:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One wonders how the polling was conducted. Were respondents asked, "Do you want known terrorists to be housed on the U.S. mainland?" Or was it, "Do you want justice served to those who have never had a fair trial?" I can understand a "No" vote on anything resembling the first question, but I doubt that most Americans would vote "No" on anything like the second question.

I'm inclined to think that the terror-mongers have got to the pollsters and "framed" the question so as to get the vote they wanted. Despite the fact that we have a new administration, there are still a lot of neocon cockroaches in the bureaucratic woodwork.

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Utter caca
Posted by: Perry Logan on Jun 6, 2009 2:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would be flat-out skeptical of this poll. We have seen this all before.

During the Bush II years, whenever some new administration atrocity was uncovered, a poll would almost immediately appear in some corporate venue, showing conclusively that Americans were overwhelmingly in favor of it.

The pattern is clear. The USA poll is almost certainly complete and utter caca.


Swine!

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» RE: Utter caca Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: Utter caca Posted by: willymack
» I really hope this is not true Posted by: truthlover

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Not that this is an original idea...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren on Jun 6, 2009 2:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But my first thought about the poll is it is bunk. Complete bull shit. Haven't people learned yet that media lies?

Let me repeat that, newspapers lie.

They make up facts and they ignore what is really going on, they quote the polls that please them and ignore all things that disagree with their narrow world view.

I don't trust the poll, I don't trust the paper and 'liberal' media should not either.

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» You are lying or crazy. Posted by: brunowe

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Black Sites
Posted by: Sparks56 on Jun 6, 2009 3:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am far less concerned about Gitmo, we know about it, than I am about the many "black sites" we don't know about. Where are they? How many are there? Who is being held there? Free and open societies do not have secret prisons. Ergo........

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» RE: Black Sites Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Black Sites Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Black Sites Posted by: Sparks56

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Liliana, the BIG reason they don't want it closed: They still believe the official story of 911
Posted by: pfgetty on Jun 6, 2009 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans are still scared. They still remember that horrible day, the day that began the War on Terror.
And they have been told, by the press, over and over again that bad people from the Middle East brought us that day.

What they don't know, because you Liliana and the rest of the press including Alternet won't tell them, is that the story of 911 is a lie. 911 was an INSIDE JOB.

The government has been lying. The press has been lying. Our political leaders have been lying. You are lying.
Ok, maybe you are just ignorant of the facts.

Here is a fact: nanothermite, an explosive material, has been found the in the dust samples taken from the collapse of the WTC. Nanothermite is a very unique material and is not commercially available. Each formulation of nanothermite has a signature, a fingerprint, that is one of a kind and can be traced back to the makers. Only scientists in research labs connected to the military have made this stuff. And it was found in huge quantities, if the quantities in the dust were extrapolated to the entire amount of dust.

In short, there is no way for that nanothermite to be in the dust samples unless somebody placed it in the WTC buildings before the attacks. Period. And that means government complicity. And coverup. And that means that we were not under attack by Islamic extremists.

Why aren't you telling us about this, instead of me?

If you want to know more about this, go to www.ae911truth.org or www.911truth.org. If you think I'm out of whack, then see the thousands of distinguished scientists and retired military and CIA people and others who know this story as I do.... at www.patriotsquestion911.org.

But somebody must bring this information to the public. If you don't like continuing torture, you don't like rendition or illegal wars and occupations, if you don't like the Patriot Act, and you want Gitmo closed, then do the one and only thing that will stop all of this: tell the story about the dust samples, or of hundreds of other bits of evidence that prove the 911 story is a lie.

As you have told us, the 911 story of lies continues to affect America and the world in devastating ways. It will not stop until we know the truth.
And with this new evidence, the truth is irrefutable.
The only thing remaining: the story MUST get out!
And Liliana, if you don't do it, and Alternet won't do it, who WILL?

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» RE: You really lost me here Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Thanks, LeftWright Posted by: pfgetty
» Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: weathered

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Don Quixot
Posted by: Don Quixot on Jun 6, 2009 5:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Neither nazis nor communists ever had something like Gitmo

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» RE: Don Quixot Posted by: lanerdion

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The commander in chief can still do a lot.
Posted by: gorkman on Jun 6, 2009 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I cannot understand why the President doesn't move forward on this.
He can do other things as Commander in Chief even if congress is backstabbing him.

1. He can ensure that mistreatment of prisoners stop. And he can issue orders to increase their quality of life.

2. He can release the evidence (or lack thereof) we have against the detainees so people of the world can judge for themselves if they are justifiably imprisioned.

3. He can obey the court order and release the Abu Ghraib photos. I, for one, do not believe his rhetoric about inflaming anti-American sentiment. That was already done the moment the tortured victims were released.

He can give one of his eloquent speeches as he releases the photos, where he clearly puts the responsibility of American trangressions of Human Rights of the shoulders of the previous administration. I think that would alleviate anti-American sentiment. And most important...

4. He can back up those words by ordering the justice department to conduct open investigations into the crimes committed by BushCo, and conducting appropriate procections pending their outcome.


Obama talks about moving forward, and not looking behind.
But there is an elephant in the room standing behind him. A big, lying, torturing, blood soaked republican, elephant standing right behind him casting a huge shadow on the path forward he wants to take. He must deal with it, or he won't be able to move forward.

By not doing so forcefully and forthrightly, I believe he is tainting himself with the crimes of the previous administration.

There will soon come a time when President Obama will be unable to divorce Amercia from the crimes of George W. Bush. The Political Right in this country wil soon be able to do a 'Full Pelosi' on him compromise him with their crimes in order to cover their political asses.
And that will very much inflame sentiments against us, and endanger America and the troops that are defending us abroad.

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If This Poll is True - And I Suspect It Is - It Shows One Thing Very Clearly
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Jun 6, 2009 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The majority of Americans, are Gutless, Brainwashed, Immoral Cowards Very Effectively Controlled By Fear By Their Government and Media.

If only they knew the Truth.

It will come back to haunt them.

The Evil Comes From Within and Like a Cancer it will consume from within.

Americans call themselves Christian but not only Condone Torture - they actually Want it To Continue.

They Couldn't Give a Fuck - about Anyone else except their own Precious Pussies.

Beneath Contempt

The USA itself has become a Prison Camp of Fear

Tony

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» RE: I think the poll is bull shit Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I think the poll is bull shit Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: I think the poll is bull shit Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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I wouldn't be surprised if its true.
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Jun 6, 2009 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is an appalling number of 'mainstream' thinkers out there...

who basically, if you asked them, would tell you to your face:

"fuck everybody else, its all about me"

tell any of those people to be
...responsible for their actions ("Freedom is nobody trying to catch you!")
...caring about others
...interested in some personal inconvenience or social slight risk to 'do the right thing'
& you'll be called everything from 'bleeding heart' to 'stupid & foolishly unpragmatic'...

seriously.
the narcissism, xenophobia & sheer self-interest of people never fail to astonish me

& a *lot* of it comes *straight* out of mainstream MEDIA CULTURE...

not just the polls, but the drumbeat of 'fuck you, gimme mine' that saturates magazines, tv, films, books...

if its selfish and full of assholery...
you can be sure its got an appreciative paying audience.


perspective, people.


Perspective.

The Jeff Farias Show: streams FREE & LIVE Mon-Fri, 6-9pmEDT

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"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.
"Violence can only be concealed by a Lie, & the Lie can only be maintained by Violence." ... "Any man, who has once proclaimed Violence as his Method, is inevitably forced to take the Lie as his Principle" – Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire.

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Sick
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jun 6, 2009 6:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe the poll. Americans are idiots, and most of them are evil.
52% of Americans, or 71%, depending on the polls, actually believe that TORTURE IS ACCEPTABLE.

You Americans are sick.

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» RE: Should I poll my neighbors Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Sick - Undecided Posted by: VZEQICVA

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If YOU Personally Do Not Stand Up and Shout And Complain About The Torture You Have Lost All Rights
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Jun 6, 2009 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You Yourself can be arrested on any pretence - without committing any crime

And You Yourself can be imprisoned without Charge - and Tortured For The Rest Of Your Life

Sure it takes courage to complain

But the Alternative is Far Worse

Tony

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This author is mentally retarded to cite a stupid poll. Polls mean nothing.
Posted by: superfeduphoosier on Jun 6, 2009 7:16 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the end, it's big government that will call the shots with their corporate buddies as their henchmen. Obama would be better off facing IMPEACHMENT for LYING to the American people and reneging on his promise to close GITMO. Bob Barr has better brains than the idiots in Washington and would have called for an immediate shutdown of GITMO, no questions asked ! To all you Obama voters, you're the LOSERS ! OOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! LOL ! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! LOL !

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Irrelevant
Posted by: docg on Jun 6, 2009 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not one single reason you've given is relevant to the issue at hand. This is the sort of thing that gives us liberals a bad name. Gitmo is a prison, a facility, nothing more. It also happens to be a very convenient facility for holding people who could be extremely dangerous. The American public understands that but you don't. Why feed into the "knee-jerk-liberal" thinking of people like Gingrich and Limbaugh?

Every single issue you raised can be dealt with through changes of policy. I heartily agree that all such policies ought to be changed, that's a no-brainer. But to attach the policies to a particular facility, more for ideological reasons than anything else, is exactly the sort of thing that has given liberals a bad name for far too long.

"Our failure to get beyond the political correctness thing, our failure to think more critically, deeply, logically and dispassionately about the world we now live in -- that's the problem. I like my fellow Democrats, I'm proud to be one of them. I admire my president. However: can we drop all the kid stuff and finally: GROW UP??????????"
from Mole in the Ground, http://amoleintheground.blogspot.com

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» This is absurd Posted by: truthlover

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JT Barrie
Posted by: rimchamp77 on Jun 6, 2009 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IF you phrase a poll just right you can get "legitimate" results to support your worldview. You can ask people whether they want murderers locked up with mandatory minimums and they will say yes by more than 4-1. Ask them for a tax increase to pay for locking up mostly drug offenders and they will reject the measure by 3-2.

If you falsely associate Guantanamo prisoners with the half dozen or so serious mass murderers who are basically a version of pond scum and no one will want them housed next door [except the ones who recognize false associations - like readers of my book].

Actually if you phrased a poll honestly and informed them that nearly all prisoners detained had no hearings to determine innocence and asked if they should be released the poll numbers might be embarrassingly high in favor. Of course that's why such polls never get funded. It's like polling people on whether there should be actually measurable standards for the FDA and DEA for keeping drugs on the market or impose restrictions. Such a measure - if enacted - would end the drug war, get a lot of worthless drugs off the shelves, and open up the drug market to lower priced drugs.

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NOT TO SOUND NAIVE
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jun 6, 2009 10:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The promise to close Guantanamo got Obama alot of votes. That's reason enough to get moving and close the place. It's an albatross on our reputaton which is not at an all time high anyway. This past week in the Middle East was a huge success for Obama. Why not stay on the roll. This awful place defines us. Americans deserve better and most of the prisoners never did belong in prison. If they do, we have plenty of jails. Thanks, ANNA

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A disgrace and a source of everlasting shame
Posted by: willymack on Jun 6, 2009 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's not forget that the prisoners at Guantanamo are there ILLEGALLY, without charges, and without anything resembling due process. This is a crime against humanity by anyone's definition.
Let's not forget those unfortunates have been there for seven years.
Let's not forget that the stated reasons for their imprisonment are BOGUS, just as the brutal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan are.
We'll probably never recover whatever good will we once had worldwide, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what's morally and legally right.
Close the base at Guantanamo. Give it back to Cuba, no strings attached. GITMO has a negligible stragegic or defense value, which can easily be taken up by Puerto Rico.
Relesase the prisoners with our apologies. Take them to wherever they want to go. Whatever bullshit rationale for their imprisonment there was has been completely shattered by our blatent disregard for international law. Giving them some money would be a nice gesture, and a drop in the bucket compared to what's been pissed away in the name of "security".
Begin a rapid withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. No need for elaborate explanations or hand-wringing. Anyone with half a brain here knows we're in those two unfortunate nations ILLEGALLY, anyway.
Start spending the ten billion a month we've been burning on illegal "wars" on health care, education, and badly neglected social programs, here at home.
If our "leaders" are too gutless to prosecute the bush crime cartel, they can at least expose them for the evil bastards they are.
Maybe then we can begin to hold our heads up and have some hope for a peaceful future.

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Don't Shut Gitmo Down!
Posted by: Ted Voth Jr on Jun 6, 2009 1:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's perfect for the Cheney administration and the Wall St bankers!

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Land of the free and the brave?
Posted by: Hans B on Jun 6, 2009 4:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If this continues much longer, make that "the fearful and the slave". The country with the biggest military in history suspending all it believes in out of fear of a handful of boxcutter-wielding cavedwellers.

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Obama is bogus
Posted by: archives@uwyo.edu on Jun 6, 2009 5:20 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama was paid by Wall Street to betray the country.

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» RE: Obama is bogus Posted by: weathered
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its much worse than just fearmongering...
Posted by: Annapurna1 on Jun 7, 2009 1:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i strongly suspect that many americans support bu$hco fascism not out of fear of terrorism.. but for strictly selfish economic reasons...the police state "anti-terrorism" policy puts the fear of god (and "god" doesnt mean terrorists either) into ppl.. making them into a docile..compliant..and most of all cheap..workforce...the respondents of that poll are simply worried about things like their 401ks' that would benefit from cheap labour...cheney claims that fascism is necessary to protect americans against terrorists.. while the respondents think that fascism is necessary to protect their investments against lazy goldbricks and welfare queens...

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There was a time when 80% of Americans polled thought it was a good idea
Posted by: kettleblack on Jun 7, 2009 6:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... to go to War in Iraq.

Poll numbers change when truth is recognized.

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Tiffany & co
Posted by: TiffanyJewellery on Jun 7, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is universally acknowledged that Tiffany Jewellery are indispensable to us.On no account can we ignore the value of Tiffany and Silver Jewellery.

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Tiffany & co
Posted by: TiffanyJewellery on Jun 7, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is universally acknowledged that Tiffany Jewellery are indispensable to us.On no account can we ignore the value of Tiffany and Silver Jewellery.

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Tiffany & co
Posted by: TiffanyJewellery on Jun 7, 2009 7:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is universally acknowledged that Tiffany Jewellery are indispensable to us.On no account can we ignore the value of Tiffany and Silver Jewellery.

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Before we close it....
Posted by: AdamDunny on Jun 7, 2009 6:13 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before we close it, I think Bush, Cheney and the rest of the Regime (including that whack job McCain) should be locked in cells there with no food and limited water THEN abandon the camp! Wouldnt that be a fitting end! LOL

Russ
Is your ISP watching?

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Exactly who did they poll for this?
Posted by: Pirate1 on Jun 7, 2009 6:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who listen to right wing talk radio all day? Most of the people being held were just grabbed and sent there by US soldiers with maybe a high school education who couldn't speak Arabic and just assumed these guys looked suspicious... or who didn't understand when yelled at in English to stop or whatever, so to "show them who was boss" they get sent off as war prisoners. Most were farmers, 'til their farms were destroyed, or shop keepers, restauratuers and such until their places of work were erased from the planet by bored troops seeing if they could knock the place down with just 50 calibre fire... Then they get to Gitmo and the people there don't know the circumstances of detention and apply SOP tactics to extract information. The vast majority of these folks have done nothing more than have the misfortune to be interogated in English by some green, gung ho Marine or Infantryman who then got pissed off because the man or woman couldn't respond in English. Listen to some of the winter soldier stories if you think this is far fetched. People get sent to prison, raped, even killed for nothing more than not being bilingual and pissing off a miserable grunt, sweltering in 120 degree afternoon heat... it's an ugly thing we are doing in the world in the name of gawd and "freedom".

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With Obama or without Obama, Gitmo must be closed.
Posted by: Christopher Hobe Morrison on Jun 10, 2009 4:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
President Obama must be given a certain amount of leeway, but Guantanamo must be closed one way or another. If the poll is wrong that is wonderful but it doesn't matter. Even if the poll is right the place must be closed because it a standing insult to America's prestige and moral standing. All the people there must be taken before legitimate courts of justice and tried in an open court, with the charges fully listed, the witnesses known, and the defendants have to have the right to cross-examine them and to see and question all evidence against them.

If convicted, and note I say if and not when, they have to be put in a legitimate prison and if America can't accept prisoners it should not have taken them into custody in the first place. The idea that America's supermax prisoners aren't secure enough is stupid. The US doesn't want to keep these prisoners, but it wants other countries to keep them for it after it has been treating the governments and peoples of these countries as if they were serfs.

In any case, the so-called War on Terror was not declared by Congress against an enemy as a state of war is defined in the American Constitution. It is an eternal war against an unamed enemy, declared unilaterally by one administration and waged through a climate of fear created by that administration. It reminds me of the way the nazis used the fire at the Reichstag to destroy what was left of German democracy. I am not accusing Bush of being a nazi, of course, and in any case after eight years of fear and snake oil the American people caught onto him. This may be simply a hangover from the big drunk of the Bush years.

I hope Obama will live up to the obligations he has set for himself, but the reasons that people voted for Obama are more important than is Obama. Yet I hope people will give Obama the benefit of the doubt as long as possible, because he always seems to know what he is doing even when it isn't apparent to all of us. We will have to see, but we can't wait for other people to do what is right just because we have a decent president now. We must do it ourselves and hope Obama supports us.

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Polls can be managed
Posted by: Democritus on Jun 10, 2009 4:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One wonders how the polling was conducted. Were respondents asked, "Do you want known terrorists to be housed on the U.S. mainland?" Or was it, "Do you want justice served to those who have never had a fair trial?" I can understand a "No" vote on anything resembling the first question, but I doubt that most Americans would vote "No" on anything like the second question.

I'm inclined to think that the terror-mongers have got to the pollsters and "framed" the question so as to get the vote they wanted. Despite the fact that we have a new administration, there are still a lot of neocon cockroaches in the bureaucratic woodwork.

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