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Rights and Liberties

American Amnesia: We Forget Our Atrocities Almost As Soon as We Commit Them

By Noam Chomsky, Tomdispatch.com. Posted May 20, 2009.


Historical amnesia is a dangerous social phenomenon because it lays the groundwork for crimes that still lie ahead.
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The torture memos released by the White House elicited shock, indignation, and surprise. The shock and indignation are understandable. The surprise, less so.

For one thing, even without inquiry, it was reasonable to suppose that Guantanamo was a torture chamber. Why else send prisoners where they would be beyond the reach of the law -- a place, incidentally, that Washington is using in violation of a treaty forced on Cuba at the point of a gun? Security reasons were, of course, alleged, but they remain hard to take seriously. The same expectations held for the Bush administration's "black sites," or secret prisons, and for extraordinary rendition, and they were fulfilled.

More importantly, torture has been routinely practiced from the early days of the conquest of the national territory, and continued to be used as the imperial ventures of the "infant empire" -- as George Washington called the new republic -- extended to the Philippines, Haiti, and elsewhere. Keep in mind as well that torture was the least of the many crimes of aggression, terror, subversion, and economic strangulation that have darkened U.S. history, much as in the case of other great powers.

Accordingly, what's surprising is to see the reactions to the release of those Justice Department memos, even by some of the most eloquent and forthright critics of Bush malfeasance: Paul Krugman, for example, writing that we used to be "a nation of moral ideals" and never before Bush "have our leaders so utterly betrayed everything our nation stands for." To say the least, that common view reflects a rather slanted version of American history.

Occasionally the conflict between "what we stand for" and "what we do" has been forthrightly addressed. One distinguished scholar who undertook the task at hand was Hans Morgenthau, a founder of realist international relations theory. In a classic study published in 1964 in the glow of Camelot, Morgenthau developed the standard view that the U.S. has a "transcendent purpose": establishing peace and freedom at home and indeed everywhere, since "the arena within which the United States must defend and promote its purpose has become world-wide." But as a scrupulous scholar, he also recognized that the historical record was radically inconsistent with that "transcendent purpose."

We should not be misled by that discrepancy, advised Morgenthau; we should not "confound the abuse of reality with reality itself." Reality is the unachieved "national purpose" revealed by "the evidence of history as our minds reflect it." What actually happened was merely the "abuse of reality."

The release of the torture memos led others to recognize the problem. In the New York Times, columnist Roger Cohen reviewed a new book, The Myth of American Exceptionalism, by British journalist Geoffrey Hodgson, who concludes that the U.S. is "just one great, but imperfect, country among others." Cohen agrees that the evidence supports Hodgson's judgment, but nonetheless regards as fundamentally mistaken Hodgson's failure to understand that "America was born as an idea, and so it has to carry that idea forward." The American idea is revealed in the country's birth as a "city on a hill," an "inspirational notion" that resides "deep in the American psyche," and by "the distinctive spirit of American individualism and enterprise" demonstrated in the Western expansion. Hodgson's error, it seems, is that he is keeping to "the distortions of the American idea," "the abuse of reality."

Let us then turn to "reality itself": the "idea" of America from its earliest days.

"Come Over and Help Us"

The inspirational phrase "city on a hill" was coined by John Winthrop in 1630, borrowing from the Gospels, and outlining the glorious future of a new nation "ordained by God." One year earlier his Massachusetts Bay Colony created its Great Seal. It depicted an Indian with a scroll coming out of his mouth. On that scroll are the words "Come over and help us." The British colonists were thus pictured as benevolent humanists, responding to the pleas of the miserable natives to be rescued from their bitter pagan fate.


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See more stories tagged with: torture, noam chomsky, black sites, torture memos, amnesia

Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor (retired) at MIT. He is the author of many books and articles on international affairs and social-political issues, and a long-time participant in activist movements.

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Is Obama Soft On Crime If He Fails To Prosecute Torturers?
Posted by: JohnHKennedy Denver CO on May 20, 2009 4:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I support all efforts to prosecute war criminals of any era to the end of their lives. There should be no rest for those that committed these heinous crimes. After WW2 the United State was part of the Nuremburg prosecution of Nazi War Criminals, who killed and tortured with uncommon glee.

Sadly our current leaders want to ignore the Torturers within the Bush Administration who violated US Torture Law and committed the Capital Crime Of Torture In Our Name. To prevent current and future US Presidents from violating our Constitution and Federal Laws we must insist that the Obama Administration prosecute those in the bush Administration who conspired to torture or ordered others to torture.

Should the Obama Administration fail to prosecute it will be obvious to all voters that They Are Soft On Crime.

It will also be obvious to all that the Obama Administration supports a double standard of Justice in this country, one for the politicians, where they will be protected from prosecution by their successors (Obama and his appointed lawyers) and another harsher standard of justice for we voters, where if we do the crime we will certainly do the time.

SIGN THE PETITION
Calling for a Special Prosecutor for Torturers

http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

Over 250,000 have signed

.

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» Yes Posted by: thekidde
Keep Looking Forward
Posted by: DrBrian on May 21, 2009 12:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chomsky is right, and Obama is doing his utmost to ensure that we forget this time, too. He has created a legal firewall around himself but continues Bush's policies, breaking his campaign promises as well as the law. We have to keep looking forward, and not backward, to make sure we never learn.

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» RE: Keep Looking Forward Posted by: tjg1984
Obama's Change You Can belive In ...
Posted by: mmckinl on May 21, 2009 1:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Taking prisoners to Bagram AFB in Afghanistan instead of Guantanamo Bay in Cuba ...

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John Trudell called this, "The Civilizing Process"
Posted by: Ishmael1 on May 21, 2009 1:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John addressed these issues 3 years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRO8CjzFIh8

"Every Democracy has a small ruling class. Every Democracy has economic class systems. Every Democracy has the religion of the state.
Every Democracy has sexism.
Every Democracy had slaves.
But people want to pretend that's not part of it. When THAT'S the heart and core of it.

But back to America, majority rule. If you were a white male who didn't own property, you had no taxable value so YOU couldn't vote. If you were a woman, you were mentally inferior so YOU couldn't vote. If you were black, you were property so YOU couldn't vote. And if you were Native, YOU were the enemy so YOU couldn't vote. So the majority rule of Democracy was decided by the smallest minority of people here."

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Hating America
Posted by: Perry Logan on May 21, 2009 2:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Noam is right about American culture in general. But I think the left deserves a little credit for remembering America's atrocities.

Leftists will talk about our history of genocide, slavery, and murder. That's why right-wingers always say liberals "hate America." Historical amnesia is largely a disorder of the Right.

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» RE: Hating America Posted by: Rolomax
» RE: Hating America Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: Hating America Posted by: Anthhh
» RE: Hating America Posted by: babs
» RE: Hating America Posted by: Anthhh
» RE: Hating America Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
Torture Birthplace
Posted by: domingo arong on May 21, 2009 2:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The torture groundwork was laid down way back in history during the Philippine-American war at the turn of the century. Filipinos were baptized by water-boarding and reconcentrated in virtual cemeteries. But unlike the other non-white brutalized victims, Filipinos were a different breed; they were "persons subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" who, because of their color, were never recognized as citizens of the United States although born owing allegiance to the United States in territory over which the United States exercised all rights of sovereignty and jurisdiction.

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Forget?? No, with 9/11 you have never even ACKNOWLEDGED the crime. What is wrong, Noam?
Posted by: pfgetty on May 21, 2009 2:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How disappointing. HOW TRAGIC.
Noam, you have been called the greatest intellectual in the world.
You have brought millions to understand the real scheme of the powerful.
You brought ME into an awareness of the reality of our foreign policy lies.

And now it seems I can see the reality of 9/11, and you can't!

It is not because it is so difficult. The evidence is so glaring once you look that the official story of 9/11 is a lie. If I can see it without your help, how on earth can you NOT see it?

No, for some reason you have decided that you will NOT, under any circumstances and no matter how blatant the evidence, expose 9/11 as a fraud. We don't have to FORGET the truth of 9/11. We were never TOLD the truth. It was censored..........by you, by Alternet, by the entire US media.

You have made me aware of the deviousness of our government in so many global issues that I would not have understood without you.
I can tell you about this one.
Just one FACT can PROVE that 9/11 was an inside job.
Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan and seven other distinguished scientists have proven the existence in large quantities of nanothermite in all of the dust samples collected at the WTC. Nanothermite is a very unique explosive which is not commercial available and produced in research labs only in a few places, most of them linked with the US military. The nanothermite could only have gotten into the dust because it was placed in the buildings there before the collapses.
We can find who put it there if we just try, because each type of nanothermite carries the signature of the researchers in how it is formulated.

But no matter how obvious and indisputable this evidence, as long as those whom we trust in the media avoid and ignore all of it, the public will never know or believe it or even take the time to understand the significance of this information. And so the public will never press for the truth of 9/11.

And because of that, the wars and occupations and loss of freedoms that you have fought so hard against will continue.

It is up to YOU, Noam, to present the truth of 9/11 and change the world. You more than any other one person could do it.

Why don't you?

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» How can Chomsky ignore THIS: Posted by: pfgetty
» Nonothermite = inside job? Posted by: Defenestrator
» BS! Posted by: GuitarBill
» Smoke and Mirrors. Posted by: pfgetty
» Jones paper is easy to debunk Posted by: GuitarBill
» Nano-thermite and politics Posted by: bingahaba
» So, you are saying......... Posted by: pfgetty
» Shall we test it by experiment? Posted by: bingahaba
» That is a useless comment. Posted by: pfgetty
» I read it. Posted by: pfgetty
» you've nailed it... Posted by: dragonfly
History
Posted by: marxalot on May 21, 2009 2:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
History is the story of the powerful having their way with the powerless. Idealistically human beings are perfectly capable of rising above all that, but down here on Earth, not so much.

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We all suffer from attention-deficit
Posted by: weathered on May 21, 2009 3:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
MSM/NPR/PBS helps keep it that way.

Pull the plug and flourish, or stay stuck in the myths, distractions and deflections that only serves a few at the deceitful expense of all others.

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» So true Posted by: socialpsych
Publish the photos.
Posted by: Rolomax on May 21, 2009 3:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Publish what the rest of the world already knows.

The American people can handle it. We are a resiliant bunch and we can deal with what most of us previously ignored.

Do the right thing and let us look in the mirror.

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How Can Chomsky Believe Official 9/11 Conspiracy Theory
Posted by: 911FalseFlag on May 21, 2009 4:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chomsky, if you read what he writes, believes the Bush Cheney explanation given on 9/11 that 19 Arab terrorists defeated the defenses of this country and as a result we have at ongoing war on terror that Obama continues to fight.

Chomsky's disinformation about 9/11 is very dangerous since many people consider him to be very well-informed and not fooled by the propaganda of this government.

Like the mainstream media, Congress except for very few including Cynthia McKinney, and most Americans who still get their news from the newspaper and the TV are either uninformed or just unwilling to think that this government could be completely controlled by the military-industrial oil private central banking complex.

All of the historical facts Chomsky talks about in this article clearly support that the fact that the government of this country has always been about power and control of the resources of the world.

for more articles and videos on 9/11 and many other very important issues go to 911inside job.net.

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» Robin Trower? Posted by: GuitarBill
» Makes sense to me. Posted by: GuitarBill
» Confirmation bias? Posted by: bingahaba
» Straw man Posted by: Defenestrator
"Who cares?" is a damn good question.
Posted by: Suzon on May 21, 2009 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All his life Chomsky has been working to set the record straight, to sift the truth from the myths. Result? Admired by a minority and marginalized by the rest. Now in his 80s, he might be pretty frustrated to have achieved so little, though I would argue that he's laid very important groundwork if Americans do get a chance to "get real".

Understanding Chomsky is further complicated by his writing and speaking style. In recently re-reading Profit Over People, I found myself having to go back and decide whether a sentence was sincere or sarcastic (in many cases it was sarcastic). This is less of a problem when he speaks because we get cues from his expression or tone of voice.

"Who cares?" is the question that Chomsky has been asking all of his life.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
I wonder if Muslims 'forget'
Posted by: Daito on May 21, 2009 5:12 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
beheading helpless journalists or civilians. Hey, I bet the mothers of these terrorists maniacs don't think of their sons as 'murderers'.

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» Do you have a point? Posted by: leafsong1
» Lets ask Rachel Corrie's Family Posted by: weathered
» AIPAC laughs in our face Posted by: weathered
What Chomsky neglects...
Posted by: leafsong1 on May 21, 2009 5:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is the source of the moral sense which allows him to tell us that these things are wrong. His warrants come from enlightenment thought such as that recorded in the documents of the Founding Fathers. American ideals are pure and good, even if the American nation and people are unworthy to claim them as their own. The most effective way to lead the nation forward from its present and past barbarism is to exploit their affection for these ideals. Chomsky seems to be determined to throw out the beautiful baby with the gory bathwater.

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» RE: What Chomsky neglects... Posted by: surfreality
» RE: What Chomsky neglects... Posted by: leafsong1
The Three Godfathers Heads on Recycled Paper Plates is a good start
Posted by: Purple Girl on May 21, 2009 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The debate over whether or not Waerboarding constitutes Torture and sould be prosecuted here is ludicrous. This, along with Rendition, Black Sites and hit squads are International War crimes and should be prosecuted through the International Courts.Although I'd Love to see Cheney,Rummy and Wolfie stand trial in Afghanistan or Iraq- I'd be willing to show some mercy and hand it over to the Swiss.
In reality the only crimes we can legitimately prosecute are those of Abuse of Power and Treason.And we are going to have a hell of a time finding an impartial 'commission', prosecutor or possibly even a Jury on those.
This entire national and international fiasco must be walked backwards- Give the Internationals the War crimes and Crimes against Humanity charges first, then proceed with our cases thereafter. This will negate the claim of being merely a Political 'witch hunt'. These international crimes could not have been facilitated had the Admin, most notably the Godfathers, first exceeded their powers and betrayed our nation. But first we must have proof they committed the War crimes et al, to leverage the accusations of Crimes against the USA.
Let's be honest lopping the heads off these three international criminals/Domestic Enemies would certainly send a clear and undeniable message that this shit doesn't fly anymore. A Fabulous Declaration as we head into the New Millenia, don't Ya think?

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You may be onto something.
Posted by: LTBROWN on May 21, 2009 5:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the klanservatives did not believe this way, then why are those repukes and neocons, still slanging lies, fear mongers, cow dong and everything else, at the fan, and saying they're preparing for 2010 and 2012? Because the right sure as hell think that in 2 years, we will forget the atrocities they did in the last 8 years. I, for one, won't ever have amnesia when it comes to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, Rice and Newt.[all that fit under their umbrella which is riddled with holes.]

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- - - - - - - - - -to prevent it from happening again
Posted by: Anthhh on May 21, 2009 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ECONOMIC COLONIZATION = WAR CRIME

The Allies conducted the Nuremberg Trials (in 1945 to 1949) for several reasons:

-To make aware that these crimes were actually committed

-To examine HOW these crimes were able to be committed

-Who committed these crimes

-To punish the criminals

-To prevent it from happening again--
__________________________________-

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Right ON
Posted by: nvannes on May 21, 2009 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The authur is older and more acclimated to such wrong doings. We live in a different time with the Internet, where criminality by our government is more immediately recognized and exposed. We can no longer rationalize American "exceptionalism" or living in that city on the hill as anything other than the end justifying the means. As we speak up more will have to speak up, including the old timers, like Chompsky.

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» RE: ight ON Posted by: DCostello2
Before it's too late...
Posted by: ZPaul on May 21, 2009 6:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....if it isn't already, organize. Do something. True Democracy has yet to come to America. The author of this article has been calling the truth to our attention for a long time. It may not be too late. That's my hope, anyway.

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» RE: Before it's too late... Posted by: Zeugitai
Beside the point, perhaps . . .
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on May 21, 2009 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but surely related as a matter of psychology and sociology, is the demonstration of the hideous effect of ideological bias proveded by persons who continue to insist the the World Trade Center was destroyed by controlled demolition.

Never able to explain how this could have been done - to plan and carry out the tremendous operation necessary to destroy a building seven or eight times the biggest every destroyed by the same methods, and do it without notice by literally hundreds of thousands of people - the mentally paralyzed can nevertheless be dissuaded from their lust for their idea, and go on chanting their creed endlessly and mindlessly.

"Repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth," Hitler's Propaganda Minister once observed. It's true, of course - for those susceptible to ideology and the like, especially - but the verbal and virtual truth can never supplant reality.

"Waterboarding," "abortion," and the hateful like are lies, even when the lie proceeds to dissimulation like "enhanced interrogation," "reproductive rights," and all the rest. When do we begin calling rape "aggressive courtship?"

Euphemisms which hide reality like torturer, murder, and rape not only betray the user for what he is, they anesthetize (as they are intended) others to reality.

Chomsky is dead right, and one can only wonder why THIS isn't "hate speech."

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» RE: Beside the point, perhaps . . . Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
» RE: Beside the point, perhaps . . . Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
So What?
Posted by: daw13 on May 21, 2009 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is what many citizens say in response to Prof. Chomsky's revelations. If torture, and such, work; if they keep the U.S. on top in a world of ruthless nation-gangs, so be it. We can live with immorality. Chomsky makes this very clear.

What is missing from the current discourse is an examination of the question "Does it work?" Not just torture, but imperialism in general. Not in a narrow sense, like did this particular torture produce this particular information, but in a larger sense. Can those our warlords beat up on hope to stand against our power? Or might they, in fact, retaliate quite effectively? Is our society safe, however degenerate, in the hands of our warlords? Or are their policies utterly bankrupt and bound, soon enough, to usher in not the Clash of Civilizations scenario favored by Neocons, but a state of chaos in which all are engulfed?

If evidence doesn not yet provide a clear answer to these question, it provides more than enough basis for asking them in a serious way. Chomsky's message should be understood to pose this last question: If We-The-People are willing to accept the torture of others, are we also willing to accept our own devastation at the hands of our warlords?

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» RE: So What? Posted by: obliu222
» RE: So What? Posted by: Dboy
noam's strategy for 9-11 is wise...
Posted by: Anthhh on May 21, 2009 6:37 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Doesnt anyone agree that MAYBE there is a CHANCE that Naom is a truther who has to PRETEND to embrace the GWOT fanaticism (just a little bit)?

PERHAPS
Noam has very important work. Part of this is that he desperately needs to reach the people who have not yet been reached. GWOT Fanatics.

..the people who need reaching the most

..the people who would totally rebuke him if he appeared to support 9-11 TRUTH

If you, as an Antiwar activist, want to stop the aggression against Iraq, your best bet to being successful would be to do it from neutral platform. Not a platform with an alterior agenda. such as opposing political party, a pacifist religion, a Muslim, an Iraqi, etc..

1.You would automatically lose a huge degree of the interest and trust of the people you need to reach the most.

2.Your reason for voicing will be blurred. So you don't want to go joining any "radical" groups..!

Also, look at the weak reasons Noam gives for disbelieving 9-11 TRUTH..he isnt insisting that his opinion is scientifically siding, like the true 9-11 Fanatics..!

He instead sites very debatable reasons.

He KNOWS that he ALREADY has the attention of the people of truth


OR am i just wishful thinking?
-

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» Nobody is "opposed to 9-11 truth" Posted by: Defenestrator
In a just USA
Posted by: willymack on May 21, 2009 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We would NEVER torture anyone, any time, for any reason, because it's WRONG.
We wouldn't allow two fraudulent "elections" to stand, or the crooks who committed them to remain at large.
We would pursue the TRUTH about a horrific crime such as 911, no matter how painful or damaging to our "government".
We wouldn't allow the merchant class to mestastasize into the obscene monster it's become, nor allow it to OWN us.
We wouldn't neglect to properly educate our people or allow so many of them to become stupid, ignorant drones, unfit to be called Americans.
Health care wouldn't be regarded as a commodity rather than something that's an inherent right of all citizens.
Our elected "leaders" would move heaven and earth to prosecute the most vile and evil criminals ever to imperil our nation.
Since this is NOT a just nation, it'll dissolve and fade into obscurity, just as Greece, Rome, and so many others have. The end of JUSTICE is the beginning of the end of the nation.

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» RE: In a just USA Posted by: babs
» RE: In a just USA Posted by: Walks-in-Storms
Huh? What Amnesia?
Posted by: exvagabond on May 21, 2009 8:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans don't remember the Tonkin Gulf Incident either, and most have probably forgot Weapons-Mass Destruction in Iraq. The average attention span is about 8 minutes, or the interval between commercials.

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Read "Flyboys" by James Bradley. This book is a telling, true saga of
Posted by: thekidde on May 21, 2009 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the brutalities of war. It should be required reading for every member of Congress and every evangelical follower. War is about power and control and those who follow it will always kill innocents - for power and control, certainly, but also for hubris, delusional religious garbage and for simple blood lust and revenge.
In 2009 it is a testament to the inability of the human race to rid ourselves of greed, acquisition, dis-compassion (remember Bush's "(dis)compassionate conservative bullshit), that foretells, not a "god" wrought "end of times" such as the nutcake religious believe, but a whimpering into darkness caused by our own foolish ignorance of ourselves and our world.
Heaven and hell are indoctrinal machinations of delusion in order to control - suffocating on dirty air and choking on dirty water are the legacy of greed, hubris and animal stupidity - what a breed.

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How, pray tell, can something be forgotten that has never been acknowledged?
Posted by: Centavo on May 21, 2009 8:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Curious, isn't it?

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CHENEY SPEAKS........
Posted by: vnzjunk on May 21, 2009 8:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only seconds after Obama's speech today, out from his bunker squirms cheney. Evidently the culmunation of his 'setting the record straight' (according to him) tour. He even sounded like the president that he never could have been.

All I can say is

CHENEY........GO F**K YOURSELF! CRAWL BACK INTO YOUR BUNKER AND DISAPPEAR.

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Veep emulates Der Fuhrer
Posted by: motamanx6 on May 21, 2009 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
9/11 and the anthrax attack on Capital Hill were Cheney's emulation of Hitler's Reichstag Fire--a power grab. And, like Hitler, Cheney got away with it.

Too bad, eh? Well the end results of their actions was very bad indeed.


Where is the Nuremburg Trial when you need it?

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Free Noam Chomsky MP3 lectures on www.Radio4All.net
Posted by: Defenestrator on May 21, 2009 10:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.Radio4All.net

Just do a search for CHOMSKY.

You have to sort through a little bit to make sure you're getting his talks. There's some stuff that comes up on a search for "CHOMSKY" from conspiracy buffs who talk about how Chomsky must be undercover CIA because he doesn't think Dick Cheney pulled off 9-11.

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» Read the following, please. Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Read the following, please. Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Read the following, please. Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: ead the following, please. Posted by: tony_opmoc
» RE: Read the following, please. Posted by: GuitarBill
A typical Noam Chomsky article . . .
Posted by: Earthian on May 21, 2009 10:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a typical Noam Chomsky article: brilliant, with a long, accurate and discriminating memory of history. He is a gift to the American progressive citizenry.

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tomackio
Posted by: tomackio on May 21, 2009 12:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree. We really do forget. Remember the 300,000
Japanese (many of them US citizens) put into concentration camps during WWII. How about the German spies caught,given military tribunal, and quickly executed on our soil during the war. To act like this never happened before on American soil is a joke. To pose for holy pictures acting like the Bush administration broke any new ground in this area is laughable. Oh yeah, that's right,
Roosevelt was a progressive so he gets a free pass.

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my FAVOURITE part of it
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on May 21, 2009 2:37 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is when Americans stick their noses in the air & swagger on about

"un-American" behaviours or attitudes...

-presuming, of course, that ONLY GOOD ONES are "American"-

while telling the rest of us to eat shit & die
while telling the rest of us that we 'don't have a REAL society or real Liberalism, real Humanism or real Freedoms'

because PRESUMABLY the 'American Republic' is a superior social structure than anybody else's...

(yeah, really? wanna explain how you're better than *everybody else's social programs, health rates, crime rates & satisfaction surveys*?)

but if you ask an American if 'you all run the government & you're all individually responsible for the actions of your government... why do you tell me that you're not responsible for your government's warcrimes, WHINSEC funding, aerial bombing, illegal coups, bad-faith trade negotiations, privacy violations...

they look affronted & bleat something about 'that's *just* our government... you can't blame the PEOPLE for not stopping them!


gimme a fucking break.

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» RE: my FAVOURITE part of it Posted by: obliu222
BA
Posted by: mnstra on May 21, 2009 3:22 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Noam get a life. We grow so damn tired of this historical crap.
We have heard it all before a hundred times. When you talk of real change then i will listen.

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Not a partisan issue
Posted by: reg373 on May 21, 2009 3:46 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not if we are a nation of laws. While CIA underlings are not at issue for following orders, those who crafted any that are in fact against the laws of the United States, cannot be just given a wink & nod -- found a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth

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More things change the more they stay the same...
Posted by: MotherLodeBeth on May 21, 2009 8:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Noam Chomsky makes some good points. One thing I am concerned about is the fact that a NYTimes piece noted 1 out of 7 released Gittmo prisoners have returned to terrorists activities.

Which is pretty much the case for American prisoners released from prison, they have no training other than what they had before going to prison. And sadly most Americans don't seem to care.

We are failing the weakest amongst us and then we wonder why nothing changes. My family background is Passamaquoddy of eastern Maine and wild west settlers. Eighth generation Californian to be exact.

Seems that more things change the more things stay the same. Wonder if this will ever change....

~Beth~

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Chomsky's real message is....
Posted by: barefeet on May 21, 2009 9:11 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...the only good gentile is a dead gentile.
And that message is clear throughout his spiel.

Take the "Kennedy brothers" that he gleefully demonizes more than once but never mentions that JFK delivered an ultimatum to Israel that he was aware of their pursuit of nuclear weapons in Dimona and was not going to allow it. He was killed within weeks by an orthodox Jew for that 'disobedience' and ever since we have had to listen to Jews spewing their hatred of him.

And for all of his diatribe on 'war on terror' he never mentions Israel or International Judaism where the very essence and tradition of of Judaism is terrorism against the world's gentiles.

Chomsky goes on and on about the horrors of America without once mentioning that he himself has always been in favor of invading and decimating Israel's neighbors but only bemoans the 'inhumane' methods used.

Chomsky is first and foremost a Jew and there simply is no second. He belongs in Israel not in the USA.

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» RE: Chomsky's real message is.... Posted by: login@bugmenot.com
wolvedrive.net
Posted by: doalive on May 22, 2009 3:09 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
or solzanitsyshen ? for that matter,censored,his time wasted every turn,thats when ya know their/they read ya live,and like artist your only trully considered after ya pass, nothing more powerful than being the origanal AUTHORITY on what yer really trying to "_?,then it is worth the starvation of a creative lifestyle"choice,just don't try reaching out to strangers across the world ,which ever part of the world the ones ya seek are waiting for something different to arrive,the status quo might perceive an oppurtunity to not change a thing , the established powers that be naught cept may think everything is just fine 4u and the reason why all that falls is all part of gravities great plan,besides lOOk around,thair is no forum after all,yer just about the last place in town , free speach and free association a threat to the crown and so it is deemed,the typewritter police at microsoft have done a real"page one job,thats' not what the human terrestial telametry project is all about,is it Norm,free association on like maybe this page here OO an inter venneration of sorts blocked by something that has a hard time exsplaining it(an entity)self-ha ,in a light of day,so be advised i'm tired gotta go doalive out 3:04 pst-am well argue tomorrow if its real or not, their working on it,on the same page

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BulldogRedemer
Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on May 22, 2009 9:23 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chomsky? THE Noam Chomsky? Who is next for AlterNet to publish? Karl Marx? I know that you have to give all your uber-left-wing readers red meat to chomp on, but enough is enough. And even HE is attacked by the far left nut cases who believe that 9/11 was an “inside” job. What little "evidence" that they purport to back their preposterous ideological maniacal conspiracy theories is countered by a plethora of scientific facts that disprove their claims (the Popular Mechanics issue is just one). And none other than Bin Laden himself bragged on video that he and his cohorts were responsible. The war against America had been ongoing for over 20 years, including all those attacks in the 1990s. 9/11 was just the "big one" that the Islamic extremists were publicly threatening for years. The obvious can be so clear to all but the ideologically blinded. Now I await all the hate responses by all the "intellectuals" from the loony disturbed America hating left.

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» RE: BulldogRedemer Posted by: brian boru
» RE: BulldogRedemer Posted by: login@bugmenot.com
» RE: Bulldogpisspot Posted by: leafsong1
Another silly premise
Posted by: reelman on May 22, 2009 5:31 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are the most careful most moral most guideline burdened country on earth...we even waterboard our troops as part of training...
all the radical cult of allah nuts due is bomb and behead...they have no rights, none, zero, they are not in any country's uniform...they are simply hateful terrorists that kill innocents worldwide...BUT since a Republican kept us from another attack for 7 years...that has to be soiled with a pant load of distortions and lies.
The modern liberal is a sicko...its a mental disorder...they are angry and unhappy...and will all die that way.
Never try to reason with them or please them...it does not work...expose them and defeat them.

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Clearly there is not enough superglue out there to fix this Humpty Dumpty!
Posted by: vsargis on May 26, 2009 9:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"So it is highly misleading, to say the least, when investigators of the Bush gang's descent into the global sewers lament that 'in waging the war against terrorism, America had lost its way.'"

Chomsky seems to say that since we have a golden tradition of “waging war on terror” and since Bush has not come up with a new innovative idea in using torture to wage his “war on terror”, but as he was just following in the footsteps of Reagan somehow Bush and his cronies are less culpable?

Is Chomsky, like Obama, also saying that we must not wage war on these terrorists (Bush, Chaney, Rumsfeld et al) and bring them to justice for terrorizing civilians and jeopardizing the lives of ordinary people like us? They have also turned our countries into prisons, by restricting our movements, closing borders, building fences etc. and ruing the value of the Dollar for ordinary people. Of course it won’t make much difference to the elites, whom Bush called his “base.” Not too long ago we were able to get two Euros for a Dollar now it is the other way around. In the wake of the declining dollar how can they (Obama included) look the seniors who live on fixed incomes in the eye and say we are making “progress?”

Thanks to these unauthorized (by we the people,) "wars" and "bailouts" we are now in a recession, and this country is broken, beyond repair, there isn't enough superglue out there to put this Humpty Dumpty together again!

If Obama truly wants to wage war on terror, wage it on poverty, hunger, homelessness; prioritize and nationalize healthcare, nationalize banking, ensure that colleges are truly educational institutions and not just run on business model diploma mills. High school education should be enough to get a job to make a comfortable living and meet basic needs. Colleges should be for expanding knowledge as an end itself, not for racking up debt! Make sure the pensions are secure, every college and high school graduate has decent employment with living wages and benefits.

I have not seen any antisystemic analysis from Chomsky even though he calls himself an Anarchist. Just because torture has been routinely practiced and it is as ancient as history does not make it right, or acceptable or respectable, it is still a crime, it still divests people of their freedom and their civil and human rights and even causes death. The Devil is as old as God, but the religious texts tell people one is good and the other is bad, just because the Devil is historic, it does not mean we have to follow it or accept it. Clearly history does not give credence to evil deeds or extol them, because the religious texts have all kinds of strategies and mandates to avoid the Devil! Bush is still a war criminal and Obama is close behind.

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Historical amnesia and Empire ---- it's still here
Posted by: amacd on May 29, 2009 5:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In addressing torture (and terror) Chomsky focuses on the distinction for those writing history, and establishing the 'ruling narrative of history', that torture and terror are the acts of non-state actors and certainly not the acts of major and distinguished nation-states, like the United States; our exceptional “city on the hill”.

The type of terrorist and non-state actor, who can strike with 9/11-style asymmetrical warfare below the level of traditional nation-states, conveniently provides the sense of fear which the Bush administration was able to fan into this global war on terror (GWOT).

However, Chomsky seems to be suggesting that there are really two levels of non-state actors; one below the level of modern nation-states, and the other perhaps above and beyond our definition of a traditional nation-state ---- a non-state actor which is an Empire.

In fact, Chomsky proceeds to describe the historical and continuing actions of America as imperialist, starting as an "infant empire"--- as George Washington called (it) --- which has quietly perfected and practiced its ‘Empireness’ as it grew, but without ever maturing.

However, today, the United States, while it maintains the image and illusion of merely being a very powerful nation-state, has actually morphed into that higher level ‘non-state actor’ of a disguised global Empire, only posing as a traditional nation-state.

Certainly, if our country (our former nation-state) is now controlled by a ruling-elite, global ‘corporate financial Empire’, which hides behind its two-party ‘Vichy’ façade of democratic statehood, then Chomsky’s suggestion that non-state actors, which torture and terrorize beyond the internationally accepted bounds of laws and conventions of normal nation-states, would seem to include both the type of radical or revolutionary non-state actors that Bush tagged as terrorists, and a single, super non-state actor of global empire.

This suggests that we might accurately use the acronym of GWOT to both define a global war on terror, and a much more ominous imperial global war of terror.

To avoid what Chomsky calls the dangerous phenomenon of “Historical amnesia” we might want to remember that old comment of the cold war era that “if we did not have the Soviet Empire as an enemy, we would have had to invent it.”

Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine

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