40 Million Nonbelievers in America? The Secret Is Almost Out

can we build a secret lair in Antarctica?

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But i'm now convinced of the need for honesty in business and government...something so holy for us all and yet so far, far, far from our everyday world here back on planet earth...why bother with gods when common honesty is so difficult to encounter?

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Look at the shifting demographics. Catholic Latinos in the US and Muslims in Europe are quickly out breeding the white non-fundamentalist westerner. We might be 40 million strong now but I doubt that will be the case in 2055, when I’m on my death bed.

Oh well. At least I can live a libertine life that is free of tithing, humanist charities, fatherly responsibilities and the rest of that trash.

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There "may" be 40 million. . .so what? A minority is a minority, and a democracy favors the majority. Power goes to the majority. Minorities that hope to wield power are limited to seeking and forming coalitions with other minorities in order to become de facto majorities. In a land of two political parties, and two religious factions (believers and non-believers), there is no plurality of minorities to form coalitions with. With a population approaching 310 million people, the optimistic estimate of 40 million does not even qualify as "close." It is, in fact, pathetically small and weak. You urban atheists try getting out into the heartland of America and see how far your atheism gets you. In my tiny town, there are almost as many churches as people.

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I'm sensing that it's less about God per se that is going the way of the dodo, but it's that dismal Judeao-Christian-Muslim intolerant douchebag of a God that's going bye bye.

Religious leaders have forced their way into being the middle-men to Spirit for centuries. I see lots of folks finding they don't need a middle-man .... or some warped control freak as their Lord.

The dysfunctional faction of religious leaders and their pathetic followers are doing the bleating here. The Christians seem to be the loudest whiners here in the US as their extremist views are continually being rejected.

I predict that the dismal interpretations of the bible and koran myths will look as ridiculous as the flat earth teachings within a decade. Of course, there's always a chance a few religious leaders will show courage and ditch the extremist dogma in favor of religious teachings that actually evolve and serve people.

Modern day Tibetan Buddhism is a good example of a kick-ass mythology taught by some smart people who allow the teachings to evolve and grow with society. (Chinese communists would disagree, lol).

So, I'd recommend religious folks tell the creationists to take a hike, let Jesus have his fro and grow up .... or you'll be irrevelant.

And no, even the dysfunctional faction of Hispanics I see posting online about how they're gonna breed whitey out of existence aren't gonna prevail with their catholicism pandering. There are many more extremely intelligent Hispanics who aren't going to hang on to a religion that isn't serving them forever ~ nor are they going to hang on to outmoded ideas about having huge families

Times are changing!

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It helps to remember the early histories of the three Big Book Sky God religions.

Loosely, and in general, they all started under adverse conditions with active prosecution by enemies. They persisted in their beliefs and slowly spread and grew. Finally, breakthrough events occurred --historically the rise of military leaders such as King David for Jews or the Battle of Badr for Muslims; for Christians, it was an alliance with Emperor Constantine.

It is not coincidental that the Big Three Godmakers achieved their dominance through political and militaristic means. Once in power, it was woe betide those who resisted their hegemony. This pretty much brings us to our own condition in postmodern times.

Now the growing tide of nonbelievers, atheists, and anti-religionists finds itself a recognizable minority. But there will never be literal atheist militancy wielding the sword of anti-religious conquest. That's their style, not ours. We'll have to rely on the internal collapse of kingdoms of the Sky God believers before humans will be set free.

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It's not a black/white issue. It's not a case of Minority B pitted against Majority A. The more outspoken nonreligious people there are, the greater percentage of the religious will become pro-Choice, supportive of gay marriage, etc.

But Zeugitai makes a point here "With a population approaching 310 million . . ." this is what we want to prevent. This is one of the most harmful effects of religion: constantly promoting population growth.

Here in the Twin Cities, we have started a Secular Bible Study which brings atheists and Christians together to talk to one another. I was surprised with my first meeting to discover that even conservative, anti-Choice, anti-gay-rights Christians attended. The meeting started with an introduction, we were handed a list of questions to address, then we, in a room of at least 50, turned chairs to form circles of 5 or 6 individuals and there we exchanged ideas. I sat next to a liberal Christian, but on his side was a fundamentalist. We were polite, we spoke and asked questions, but mostly all of us listened to each other. I saw no evidence that the evening was unpleasant for anyone.

We met in a public school building, but as a secure atheist, I would have no objections to meeting in a religious building. The purpose of this is: Communication. This can be done in small towns and rural areas.

At the end of the 2-hr meeting, I exchanged email addresses with the liberal Christian and we've been emailing ever since. Great reward for me because I have an opportunity to ask questions such as "If your god is everywhere all the time, then how can 'hell' be an absence of god for the 'sinner'?" And, "What exactly is a 'soul'?" "How many gods do Christians worship? In the NT, there's a god on a cross talking to his 'father' so the story is describing two gods talking to one another? And while on the cross, why didn't Jesus demand an end to capital punishment?"

Concerning being more out with one's atheism, where possible, atheists should adopt an in-your-face handle or email address such as "atheistR2" or "deskAtheist" or "666Atheist" or "AtheistMagnet" etc.

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I used to feel that I wanted to respect people with religion although I was an atheist. I also found that debates about whether or not god existed were boring and non-productive. But the abuses by religious fundamentalists of all stripes have made me hopping mad at all of them. When I think about the troubles in the world that are caused by Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Hindu fundamentalists I feel like I want to come out of the closet fighting.
A plague on all of their houses! (that's a joke)

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I will always believe and Lord knows I've been tested.

I hope you find him before it becomes to late

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The difficult part of accepting that is the reponsibility it imposes. It means each of us has no one to blame but ourselves. It also measn than no one needs an external religion.

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For the creationists---judging by the results---

he or she could have done a lot better-----------

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We must study history in order to understand where and why different religions started. For instance, when was the christen bible written? 345 AD by Emperor Constantine. Why, to unite all of his conquered lands under a common government. How? By instituting a new religion so that everyone is united. In addition, history, never mentioned a man named JC during the years he was supposed to have lived.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Is an excellent place to start.

Remember, the worst crimes in history were/are instituted by religious institutions.

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Having lived under the oppressive Vatican, why should we be in awe of Nostradamus foresight that in the future people would begin to turn away from the Church, esp woman. And why not concede his vision did not just refer to Catholics- most religions have built the same Holilier than Thou institutions and organizations that mirror the Catholics- envy is a mortal sin, and the Evangelicals have it bad.In fact the Evangelicals seem to be trying to push us back to the glory days of the Vatican,apparently they think it is their time to reign.Sorry folks you missed out on the days of Burning or slaughtering your opponents or those you see as 'evil'.But it seems they will try- Sarah and her sociopathic church casting out 'Witches',cheering when some poor old woman is run out of some small African Village.These are the psychotic antiquated ideas and actions which are driving people away- probabaly because they read a book about the heinous acts previous religious zealots committed against innocents.
The Religious fervor of hate and fear flies in the face of the very books they wave around- those that expound the virtues of love and faith (ie,'thou I walk through the valley of darkness, I fear no evil'?).
The reason Organized Religion is losing members is that they have failed miserably at re writing the Books through their interpretations. Even the least scholarly student can not justify the contradictions between the Books and the crap coming from the Pulpit.
In fact science has a better chance of bring back Faithfuls than any Religious sect. Every new discovery only opens up more questions- provides moments of awe & wonder. Hubbel telescope has sent back pictures which are inspirational, to the beauty and majesty of our universe.Who wasn't struck by that 'nebulus Cloud' that looked like a giant eye? What could be more humbling than the knowledge a microscopic virus could conquer humanity, without ever needing to fire a shot?
Having Spent the majority of my life as a Recovered Catholic who refuted the idea of a God- Unexplainable circumstances made me reconsider. Not my aversion toorganized religion- still strong as ever- but my quick dismissal of the Unexplainable- even through science or happen stance.Somethings happen which cause you pause.
The Religious zealots have seized the conversation and have actively excluded those that don't adhere to their strict interprestations- so the reduction of 'membership' is self induced. Who wants to be unjustly associated with their brand of collective egocentrism.Not to mention their homocidal/suicidal ideations regarding 'End of Days'.Those of Us who revere life, have no use for their self serving 'Chicken Little' doctrine.it's not only terrifying, it's counterprodcutive and merely an excuse to do nothing about anything.Much like the Repug party these religions have closed their doors to new members- funny thing is no one seems to care. The days of Force Consumption and adherence are dead, Just as well- good Riddance.

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Most religionists hate Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and the other "new atheists," but they are mistaken in thinking these writers have lured people from the fold; instead, it has been the hypocrisy, arrogance, bigotry, greed and stupidity of televangelists, local clergy, the Catholic Church hierarchy and publicly pious politicians that have turned people off.

The greatest threat to religion isn't people of sincere doubt, but those of insincere faith.

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The issue is not a belief in god(s). Anothers assertion that god(s) exist is just as unprovable as mine that they don't.

The real issue is intolerance based on religious conviction and dogma and the building of that intolerance into a moral framework that is forced upon the whole of society when a large minority disagree not only with specific parts of it but with the very base ideas it is built on. And that's without governments making decisions based on an individuals 'personal relationship' with god(s).

The problem with fighting that intolerance, and delusion, is that it usually happens one 'interest group' at a time (both in terms of wins and losses). What an organised atheist, secular group is able to do is promote a societal (moral) code that is acceptable to the almost all of the people most of the time and since it isn't based on 'faith' or contradictory 'teachings'. It can be self consistent and fair to all and can also adapt over time as knowledge increases without having to reinterpret the meaning of something written previously.

The other thing that organised secular groups can do is offer the church (as in congregation of people) aspect of religion that many people find important to their lives.

The battles that lie ahead aren't those of beliefs and gods but those of the established holders of power and authority seeking to stop those who would challenge them - much the same as it has always been.

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WE LIVE ON A ROCK
THERE AIN’T NO RHYME, THERE AIN’T NO REASON
WE LIVE ON A ROCK
JUST ONE OF MANY HURTLING AROUND IN SOME BIG COSMIC JUMBALAYA
NOW IF YOU WANT TO GET QUESTIONY THAT’S YOUR PEROGATIVE

MY MA TOOK ME TO A BIG LOUD CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY. SHE SQUEEZED HER EYES SHUT, SHE PRESSED HER ROSARY BEADS TO HER LIPS AND SHE PRAYED FOR GOOD THINGS FOR THOSE SHE LOVED.
BUT CANCER TOOK TWO OF HER SISTERS, HER HUSBAND COULDN’T MAKE A MOVE WITHOUT A BELLY FULL OF GIN, HER YOUNGER SON TURNED TO A LIFE OF CRIME, AND HER OLDEST, ME CAN’T GET OUT OF THIRD GEAR WITHOUT A SNARL

SO WHO WAS SHE TALKING TO EVERY SUNDAY AND WHY WASN’T HE ANSWERING

I WILL TELL YOU WHY

WE LIVE ON A ROCK, JUST ONE OF MANY, THERE AIN’T NO ANSWERS, THERE’S JUST THIS

AND ALL YOU CAN REALLY HOPE TO DO IS FIND A COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO WILL MAKE THE 70 OR 80 ODD YEARS WE GET TO LIVE ON THIS SWEET SWINGING SPHERE REMOTELY TOLERABLE

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Having been raised in a very Christian family but having my rational self "turned on" in college, I was thrilled to find that there is a religious option for those who doubt, for those of us who don't want someone else's truth all wrapped up and handed to them. As someone who still believes in wonder, excites at a sunrise or spider web but expects religion to be very much about social justice, I became a Unitarian Universalist as soon as I learned about it and that I had really been one for years - just didn't know what to call it. And glad to learn that I wasn't alone.

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As soon as nonbelievers start using their power they will be no different from any organized dominant religious groups. Remember, just as religions cannot prove the existence of a supreme being, atheist cannot prove its absence either. The theory of evolution can superbly explane, well, the "evolution", but it is only validated for living organisms. We have yet to find the explanation for how the first living organism emerged. Lightning striking a mixture of simple inorganic and even organic molecules is not enough for me. Be careful, once nonbelievers start using their power, we may end up with the conditions once again that existed in the former Soviet Union or in any other communist society.

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Some people, though this may sound odd...will smile because they "Trust in God!"

While others thrive on human care and smile because god is not there!

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Injurious to our welfre than televangelists and the rantings of "true believers". This is more of an honest assessment of the "way things are", and not so much a wailing and gnashing of teeth. If the primary religions of the world had not become so splintered, biased, segmented and sectarian, this discussion would not be so necessary. You cannot beat people over the head, ideologically,forever, and not expect to get a reaction. I like the term, "apatheist". It suits the mediocrity of today's general sense of self-awareness.

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Sam Harris' screeds aren't very good. They're poorly-researched, poorly-written, and deceptively-marketed. I don't know about you, but I don't recall reading a single sentence of "neuroscience" in The End of Faith, while the book's jacket made it a point to say that that Harris was a neuro-scientist. Some things in the book showed that the author was surprisingly ignorant of cognitive psychology - for example, Harris seems completely unaware of the Milgrim Experiments, although they bear directly on the claims he makes in his book.

Even worse, Harris (as well as Christopher Hitchens, and presumably Richard Dawkins since he enthusiastically endorses Harris) comes down on the same side of moral debates about war and torture as apocalyptic TV evangelist John Hagee! If the leading lights of "new atheism" are just as dangerous and morally-warped as an obese TV preacher who wants to nuke Iran so Jesus will come back, what have we gained?

I doubt the combined works of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennet account for even 1 percent of the "new atheists." Thank God for that!

I think that modern society simply dissolves the model of social relationships that religion is based on. When you work all the time, commuting 2 hours to work, and you go into your basement at night to ping e-mail messages to folks in distant cities via Facebook but you don't know your own neighbors, it's hard to summon the will to get in the car and drive to a Bible study. Churches are based on a local model, where people live in a genuine community, where relationships aren't entirely voluntary, and what goes on in your town matters. The most successful churches are those that have become 24-hour community centers offering varied programs to every conceivable demographic and interest group. Since relationships are purely on a voluntary basis today, rather than people having to get along with those who live near them whether they want to or not, that's the only way to draw people. Most of these "mega-churches" are those that are the least faithful to the religion's real moral message.

We have a HUGE number of people who are now college-aged or immediately post-college. Their social lives are still sailing along on a wave of post-adolescence pack behavior. I'm curious what will happen when the bulk of the millennials start settling down and having families, and start moving to distant cities to take jobs that separate them from their families and former friends. Are they going to be satisfied pinging their old chums on Facebook and telling them about their latest bowel movements on Twitter, or are they going to want real human contact? I'm interested in how they go about getting it.

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that is very good news! Finally America could dispense with those "reborn" Christians et al.
However, when we learn from in Alternet,of the efforts from the military in Afghanistan to encourage proselytizing, I have to doubt it.

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I wonder if we would be having all this back and forth if a a certain political party hadn't made a point of courting some of the more traditionally oriented religious sects in our country. What would our political landscape look like if numerous appointments to important government posts had not been filled by people whose religious beliefs guided their policy decisions rather than science or the expressed majority will of the people? I believe that we are seeing the destructive consequences of this cynical strategy, promulgated by the likes of Lee Atwater and Karl Rove.

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..... sky god preaching is fine art of sugarcoating buffalo turd and calling it sweet fry bread.
~Rev. El Mundo,
Pastor, WVCSR

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I suspect that many people check "Christian" on the form by reasoning, "Well, mom & dad went to church and I'm not a Muslim..." or because they've got a vague feeling that "there is something out there."

It would be interesting to ask, "Do you believe in a omniscient, omnipotent god as described in the Old Testament; that heaven and hell exist physically; that you must pray at every meal and attend church every week or risk eternal damnation?"

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saying you are a non-believer is like saying you are a communist. Due to the intolerance that permeates America most people keep those revelations to themselves so the 40 million is undoubtedly low.
In countries like Russia and China where a majority of the people are non-believers life goes on with just as much kindness and sharing as in America. Make that with more kindness and sharing.

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While it is true that writers such as Dawkins and Harris must be credited with persuading an increasing number of nontheists to come out of the closet, the book most relevant to the issue of how many Americans are nontheists is Ronald Aronson's Living Without God. Aronson shows that, when polls are competently analyzed, the number of nontheists is 36 percent, amounting to 100 million Americans. The number of secularists, meaning persons who support the separation of church and state, is 68 percent.
The only way a polling service can obtain a valid result is to ask a question that is unambiguous and will not trigger a politically correct answer out of fear of religious McCarthyism. Such a question should take the form:
(A) I believe in an intelligent designer of the universe, for convenience called God, who has laid down laws that humans must obey on pain of being judged disobedient or sinful, that God hears all prayers and responds to those he deems worthy, and after death God judges each person as worthy or unworthy of eternal happiness.
(B) I disbelieve or strongly doubt the existence of such a God, and only a preponderance of the evidence could change my mind.
But even that question will only secure an accurate answer if the person being interviewed is assured of anonymity.

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I am just as concerned about fundamentalist atheism as I am fundamentalist religion, because both lack the imagination it takes to:

1) understand the poetry, metaphors, allegory, etc. of religious texts, like the Bible, Gita or Qur'an.
2) imagine a better world and co-create it
3) just use their imagination, period!

There are worse things one can be than "religious" since both Harris and Hitchens are guilty of condoning torture and violence in the Middle East. They lack imagination and empathy. It's no wonder scientists say we only use 10% of our brains.

Without imagination our brains devolve until so many are frighten little children waiting for the boogey man to come out of the closet.

peace

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Politicians are always proclaiming themselves Christians. They all strike the same pose in front of some photogenic church, just in case a photographer wanders by. You know the pose, bible in one hand, other hand on their spouse's shoulder, while the entire family gazes adoringly skyward. (I suspect they practice in front of a mirror)

They're trying to tell the electorate "I believe the same things you do, so vote for me." Okay, let's see if that's true.


Mr./Ms. Candidate, please answer the following 'yes' or 'no':

1) Is Jehovah the same person as Allah?
2) Is Jesus the same person as Jehovah?
3) Did Creation happen approximately six thousand years ago?
4) Are all Hindus going to burn in hell?
5) Are all gays going to burn in hell?
6) Is the Sabbath on Sunday or Saturday? Does it start on Friday?
7) Is it sacrilege to pray to Mary?
8) Is it a sin to drink alcohol?
9) Were there penguins on the Ark?

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Fading fast is the need to belong to an organized religion that intrudes on private life and/or is tied in with government. I think we instinctivly seperate the two. We look at everything through a high powered microscope, then criticize each other. That has nothing to do with religion or God. We do the same thing with sex, which is also none of our business. What people need is a little privay. While it's fun to bat things around and debate, most of the time the discussion (not just here) soon escalates to insults and cheap shots. The subject is lost in alot of words being thrown around. Truth is that most religious beliefs have little or no basis in fact and are a matter of faith, the ability to believe without seeing. Most believers are good people. When policiticans latch on to "religion" for their selfish purposes, such as reason to go to war, it's not about religion. It simply makes their idea an easy sell. Religion left to people is not a bad thing. In the hands of politicans and rulers it's lethal. People in the millions are abandoning organized religions in favor of whatever it is that brings them comfort. But they continue to believe in God and want their children to do the same. Thanks, ANNA

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The United States was established with a secular government and a wall between church and state.

The secularists already rule.

As a Christian, I remind you, dear writers and readers, that the wall between church and state was also established to protect believing Americans and non-believers alike.

Something religiously-devoted non-believers seem to forget.

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Those who fear atheists will organise politically can relax. I have been an atheist all my life and, like most atheists, find it hard to imagine getting over excited about something I don't believe in.

Organised atheism will never be more than a tiny minority.

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I Pray that one day they will see the light and the Truth.

RT
Privacy Center

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In my lifetime thus far i have had a lot of problems with "believers". In 1970, at the University of Tennessee, i was talking with some other students about my beliefs. The conversation was quite comfortable when an older theologian made an appearance. The first words out of his mouth were "but the Bible says". I interrupted and explained that if he was going to try and convert me, he had to use something other than the "Bible" as a reference. I explained a group exercise used in business where a human circle is formed and one sentence is passed around the circle. It gets modified and altered and by the time it gets back to the source, it sounds nothing like the original sentence. The Bible was relayed orally for centuries before printing. It is an unreliable source. To make a long story short, the theologian ended up walking away to the disbelief of the other students. I totally respect the rights of others to believe. I just want the same considerations.

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Text of a treaty signed by the United States and Tripoli in 1797. Read aloud to Congress and unaminously approved by the Senate and President George Washington:


Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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This article, while interesting, does not do full justice to the topic by checking in with those who do not identify with any of the organized religions yet who hold spiritual interests and beliefs that come from personal experience, theirs or others', of the numinous realms beyond the five senses. I've seen this third alternative categorized as "secular spirituality," which is probably as good a term for it as any. But my point is that there's a lot of room between the formal pew of a church or temple and the rejectionist view of the agnostic or atheist. In fact, for my money, that's the territory where religious discussions really get interesting!

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Religion eh? I have some quotes:

"There probably is no God" ; "God is Dead"

"If people were rational, there would be no religion"

But nooooo, we have to let people believe what they will, even though many claim to have knowledge of "the one true God" which cannot be true for more than one of them SO MOST OF THEM MUST BE WRONG.

Religion is silly, and based on group obedience:
"Some rich dude sticks a big shiny cross in the middle of a village and everybody there falls into line and worships the big shiny cross and they do as the benefactor asks of them, which is usually to work for low wages."
DUH!!! - get off that religious stuff man, it is affecting your mind.

---------
Someone above commented that "Latinos are intent on overpopulating the whites by breeding large families" - but that will only ensure their continued poverty, low levels of education, and other factors that determine the level of influence in a society [look at India's "high-breeding religious groups", and how they are keeping themselves down due to the economics of large families].

PS - over population is a threat now, not a boon. It is regressive evolution to act like animals and promote heavy breeding [only within marriage, I presume, unlike Sarah Palin's kid] as the solution to today's problems. If that is their game plan, they won't last to half-time [but no worries, these are the end times?]

THERE IS JUST SO MUCH HYPOCRACY IN RELIGIOUS CIRCLES [and isn't hypocracy a sin, as Jesus said?]

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When I was twelve years old and on a family trip from Virginia to Florida, I abandoned religion somewhere along the road in Georgia. Because I had picked up some flu or ecoli or something nasty on that same trip, I actually engaged in physical purging too so getting rid of my connection to religion felt cleansing, healing. That trip had opened my eyes to the true nature of racism, and I refused to be part of an institution that allowed, maybe even fostered, such an abomination. In the 48 years since then, I've seen the connection between religion and other abominations.

I never participated in arguments about existence of deity or deities (though the multiples are at least more intesting than one male super-god) because I saw belief as a choice. I had decided not to partake, end of story. When I started reading existentialist literature in late high school I encountered that idea of choice again and also understood what follows that choice --- great responsibility. When we abandon belief in gods, we have no excuses. Lacking belief most certainly does not mean a lack of a moral code. Lack of belief is not, by definition, nihilism. I surround myself with non-believers who take on responsibility individually and collectively. We take on issues such as single-payer health care or working to end factory farms.

I have never hidden my atheism, and I worked for more than 30 years as a public school teacher. A few times parents refused to let their children in my class, but more often parents wanted me in their child's life because I modeled and practiced that sense of responsibility. I wasn't a militant atheist, but I wasn't a closeted one either. I refused to be shamed into submission or fear.

An Unnatural Order: Uncovering the Roots of our Domination of Nature and Each Other by Jim Mason explores how dominionism got started. As neuroscientists claim, we are hard-wired to be altruistic; we couldn't have survived otherwise as a species. Religion is about power and hierarchy and dominionism; abandoning those leads us back to altrusim, which requires us to take on great responsibiity. Collectively, as the article suggests.

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their beliefs are of no consequence to what is actually true.

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are often two very different things!

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You don't have to sit and worry that you are or aren't associated with a religion or even about which religion you are associated with. Be part of the religion you want to be part of and don't be afraid of it. Time would be better spent finding common ground between the believers and non-believers rather than allow the ruling class to use yet another "religious vs non-beliver" wedge to divide us all.

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Isn't it ludicrous to believe in something so abstract in the first place besides all these stories were handed down from generation to generation, everyone embellishing the BS a bit more as the eons passed!

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James A. Swanson, Los Altos, CA
“The Bush League of Nations”
www.bushleagueofnations.com [for FREE downloads of entire $25.95 book]

As a progressive Christian, I have much more in common with secularists and atheists who are also working for peace and justice than I do with the Religious Right.

As a progressive Christian, I’m appalled at the Christian Right’s upside-down, Pro-Rich and Pro-War, version of Christ and Christianity.

Thanks to America’s Christian fundamentalists and other exclusionary Christians, being “a Christian” has become unattractive, and I can empathize with the increasing number of Americans—especially our youth—who have no use for Christianity.

As for me, I have chosen to stay and fight to reclaim my faith from those who use it to support rightwing economic policies and imperialism and to attack minorities including the LGBT community.

Christianity remains a powerful weapon in American politics, and we abandon this weapon to the right at our peril.

This and much more is discussed in, "The Bush League of Nations: The Coalition of the Unwilling, the Bullied and the Bribed – the GOP’s War on Iraq and America," by James A. Swanson (2008, CreateSpace Publishing, 448 pages).

As a gift to patriots everywhere, the entire $25.95 book can now be downloaded for FREE at www.bushleagueofnations.com.

I ask for nothing in return, except that you consider using my book to help transform and build America. Perhaps, if you are so inclined, you will also pass along the good word.

Jim Swanson, Los Altos, CA
[Activist, author, entrepreneur, business executive, Peace Corps volunteer, MIT graduate, Stanford University JD/MBA.]
“The Bush League of Nations”
www.bushleagueofnations.com [for FREE download of entire $25.95 book]

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I always believed that religion any religion was worth while as long as it made it's followers in effect better people towards others. I myself never believed even though I had religious instruction as a child. As I got older and looked back on the religion my parents tried to get me to buy into I realized how flawed it was where some of the followers who only had to go to confession to be absolved of anything they may have done. Think of the mafia and their cousins on Wall Street.

Religions do in many cases help many in need, but like a casino they allow some to benefit but the house always wins. The Vatican and it's wealth was not amassed by giving to much away. Alas even religions are just another form of corporate structure that instead of advertising relies on mostly on guilt to make a profit. If we could open all the books of the Vatican we probably would see surprising contradictions in what the have invested in over the years, like Disney also selling porn.

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We're Humanists!

www.Americanhumanist.org

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It's kind of hard to rally people around something they don't believe in and generally don't care about.

I am always a bit baffled by the people that go crazy about the pledge of allegiance and things like that. If you don't believe in God, then what's the harm? Maybe if I have kids one day, I'll become one of those nuts, but I doubt it.

Anyway, finding relevant issues that these people care about will be more effective.

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I don't find it at all surprising that the number of secularists has increased over the past eight years--in which our Head of State provided an uncontested pulpit for his fellow, so-called "Christians". . . those virtuous folks who relentlessly demonstrate their abysmal ignorance, elitism, bigotry, and at times, sheer loathsomeness.

While it's encouraging that more of us have at last outgrown that old-time, pie-in-the-sky religion, I'm afraid it's more than likely that the country will place a half-African-American, half-Jewish Lesbian in the White House before it will ever elect a self-confessed atheist.

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The ONLY reason for large religious organizations to exist is to justify inhumane treatment of fellow humans. "Of course we killed them...it's what god has told us to do"
Read the book of Joshua!

Concentration of force is a MILITARY principal - how on earth have foolish humans allowed this principle to become a part of their spiritual journeys?

The many paths to spiritual development can only be found in small groups.

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I've been an atheist since I was 9 years old. I used to militant about it, and loved to debate the existence of God. I've realized that whether or not God exists is not only unprovable, but it's also not the key issue.

The key issue is whether or not the Bible is infallible. People will always believe in "a higher power" and that sort of thing. The problem is that they think the higher power wants them to convert others, and to prevent gay marriage and to induce more war in Israel so that the saviour comes back to Jerusalem, blah blah.

Most of the problems that "Christian Conservative" people cause are based on their belief that the King James VERSION of the Bible fell from the sky. That's their basis for opposing gay rights, just as it was their basis for opposing women's suffrage and the abolition of slavery. They quote Bible passages that clearly support keeping others down.

Any book that was written in 1611 and has the word VERSION right in the title cannot be the infallible word or God. I think we should focus the debate on the knowable facts regarding the Bible, as opposed to debating what is essentially unprovable one way or the other.

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That's a serious misuse of the term:

A "Secularist" believes in the separation of church and state (a secular institution is, simply, a non-religious one). They can perfectly well be quite religious; most modern, mainstream Protestants are "secularist." (Most American Catholics are, too, but the Church is not.)

It meant "non-religious". The other terms I can think of, even "agnostic," are too narrow.

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It certainly is good news that 3.6% of the planet’s non-religious are US citizens. Not only that but the US non-religious are 0.6% of the planet’s total population. The primary reason 3.6 billion people believe in the God of Abraham and you can add in all the other religions is that, in our struggle for our daily bread by the sweat of our brow, religion gives our lives meaning and purpose in the universe. This mystic nature has been with us from the beginning and may be what makes us human. You people like to blame religion, for the works of power brokers that claim religion, but ignore the works of the non-religious power brokers as an aberration. You see a grand movement toward non-religion taking place on this planet. In fact most of the non-religious are that by order of the state. As these states change many of those people will again seek their mystic nature. If you want to survive as a movement, you better come up with a better chant than, there is no God and we are the rationales. Meaning and purpose do not leave home without it. Many of you atheists should check out pantheism so you can stay in touch with your mystic self, less you have delusions of grandeur and become gods.

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Does the rise in unbelief correspond to a rise in freemasonic membership? Let's talk about it. Somehow, freemasonry is always left out of the debates on religion, when this institution and kindred others like rotary play so central a role in our communities. What are the real purposes of masonry?

In the UK, there is a huge crowd of masons and philo-masons, while in the north, plenty of catholics. These two groups seem to be at odds with one another...how come?

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Mr. Aronson is an unrepentant Stalinist trying to jump on the bandwagon of secularist transition. A century of Bolshevism shows the failure of certain brands of atheism, to say the least. Even as we speak the Chinese are destroying the Buddhist atheists of Tibet. So we can sense intolerance in the making. The same might be said of the 'New Atheists', whose instant intolerance, narrow scientism, Darwinism, and shallow atheism is confusing the issue for those attempting to move beyond religious traditionalism. Those 'forty million', if real, are a juicy target for ambitious atheist fanatics, who, like religious fanatics, will never learn. The complexity of religion is ill-served by all this. As to Dawkins, why on earth not advise 'agnosticism'? It is the only sane way to bypass intolerance. Trying to promote a religion of metaphysical atheism is another round of the same old intolerant stupidity.

http://darwiniana.com/2009/05/04
/the-left-clueless-on-religion/

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WHY does it bother You that I or others believe in GOD ?
Does my believe hurt you? I don't care what you do or believe or Not believe....What's Up with your concerns . Maybe you feel like your missing an important chromosome gene.
If your so concerned about "Believers" start to Investigate and read a Bible / go to Church and maybe you'll find the missing part to your life.
You seem to be searching for the "Truth", The "Light" and the "Way".

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Any religion that depends on opinion polls or what the president or a handful of writers says can be safely discounted--"big news" only for those who treat religion as "news" for their personal gain.

Yes, whether you drink Coke or Pepsi is also news. For their marketing firms, it is also big. So does that make it "big news" for you? Getoutahere.

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I confess that I take a more Pantheistic view of God, that the entire universe, all that exists...is God. We are part, a miniscule one at that, of a never-ending process.

I'm more of a philosophic type who tries to see science as giving clues to the existence of God, Allah, etc. For example, Dr. Jeffrey Satinover's book, "Cracking the Bible Code," spends some length discussing quantum mechanics and its relevance to the existence of the Creator. And the February 2004 edition of Discovery whose feature article asked, "What existed before the Big Bang?"

In it are the fascinating themes of what theoretical physicists think and postulate about existence, one of them being that perhaps our universe collides with a parallel universe of some kind, in another dimension. In it Alex Stone observes: "A radical new cosmology proposes that our universe is just a tiny fraction of a vast, higher dimensional realm and that the Big Bang is one step in an endless cycle of creation...flapping in the breezes of an actual 10-dimensional cosmos."

To me, this of course seems a more consistent view of an "eternal God" or Creator who always was, and always shall be, the Alpha and Omega concept. We and our universe are mere specs of time in its continuing expansion and evolvement.

A new book, The God Code, by Gregg Braden, gets into the blueprint of God written into our very DNA and genetic codes. A Bulgarian chemist and scientist, Lubien Piperov has written a lengthy article, "From Genesis to Genetics and Back," which further dovetails into how the values of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet coincide three-diminsionally with our DNA codes, and the Bible Codes of which Satinover and others speak....a convergence of science and faith in the strangest new ways as we learn more from quantum mechanics and string theory, from subatomic existence and DNA to black holes in space, "waves of active intelligence" perceived in the universe, dark matter, dark energy...and beyond.

So many times in discussions like these, I find myself thinking more deeply on this matter of diversity in our relationships. We can speak of God, or Allah, or Great Spirit, or the "rhythmes of the universe" as in Buddhism, or however creation is seen.

No matter what our "religion," we are taught the creation was made perfect, yet we are all born into different cultures, traditions, belief systems, different races and ethnicities in different parts of the world.

So if God's creation is perfect, with all of this diversity, then I keep wondering: what is our problem with it? How many names does humanity know Him by? God, Allah, Ra, Great Spirit, Yaweh, Tao, Elohim, Krishna and so many more.

Even through my prior agnostic skepticism, I still have sensed a Creator, however differently we may perceivede it, has provided paths for each of us to follow and sent different prophets to tell us...differing narrow paths that all lead to the SAME destination...eternity with the Creator.

Perhaps we are all part of a great cosmic puzzle. Each of our pieces of that puzzle are simply shaped a little differently and realize we are all connected, all part of an ever-changing and expanding wholeness that is a constant characteristic of our existence...in constant discovey...if we can allow ourselves to see it that way.

I think sometimes we suffocate inside the mental cages we lock ourselves in, when we need to try to see the threads of truth that are everywhere that connect us, if we will only look for them. It is so many things at so many levels of our human experience....faith, spirit, learning, appreciation, reaching out to each other in love. While our knowledge may remain yet incomplete, our faith...whatever it is...must carry us.

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To be sure, but in my opinion, it should go on. The article and opinions are both excellent. One thing I would question is the NUMBER of non-believers. I opine that the number is MUCH larger than the stated forty million. Many non-believers feel a compulsion to "fit in", and conform to what they see as the majority, and questioning the silly suprestitious twaddle sold as truth only in their minds, without voicing their true thoughts. This could result in severe unresolved conflicts in the minds of some, and may shed some light on some of the violent behavior of those thought to be devout church-goers.

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as long as they keep their beliefs out of my schools, laws, bedroom, and public communication, don't harm me or mine or the environment and let ME believe what I want as well.

Unfortunately the last administration did not do that-which is why I have a very negative opinion of born agains and other extreme religions. In fact, I HATE them. It is not the religion, it is the imposing of that religion in other people's lives that I object to. And don't give me the crap about Bushit being an aberration-if you weren't actively against him, you let it happen so it is YOUR fault. Keep your religion out of my life and I will do all I can to avoid yours.

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believe in and talk to imaginary entities:

"Personal God Going the Way of the Dodo?"

The REAL world is so much more comfortable and rewarding.

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Opinion polls about subjects where eternal Hell-fire punishment is an unacknowledged determinant of the responses of those interviewed are not valid for discovering real belief statistics.
When we remember that self-alleged "believers" are threatened throughout their religious lives with unending punitive pyromaniacal tortures if they admit that they are not believers, we should compare this situation to Russians being asked if they believed in Soviet Communism during the years of Stalin's genocidal extermination of millions of "non-communists."
In nations with alleged totalistic religious majorities "beliefs" may be only safe comfority pretenses, just like politicians may pretend to be true believers by attending churches or claiming to be religious because proportedly religious people have discouraged all politicians from admitting that they actually believe that all supernatural beliefs are make believe escapes from accepting the facts of human mortality, are childish fantasies like the "Wizard of Ozz."

Actually those religions that use terrorist Hell-threats and heavy community-conformity pressures to encircle and entrap their gullible flocks by fear are totalitarians.

Those same believer-vigilanties have for generations successfully ostracized or eliminated outspoken or "admitted" realist-empiricists and scientific humanists from almost all positions of authority or influence, like teaching and serving in allegedly "sanctified" government.

The followers of dogmatic supernaturalist religions, especially the militant evangelical/crusading types like Christianity and Islam, are usually uninformed about the real, non-mythological history of the their "faiths." They have been taught only the undocumented, mythological, inspirational false histories of religions.

Patriarchal terror religions in fact are like George Orwell's "1984." They also train whole populations to believe or pretend to believe the lies that governments like our own use shamelessly to reap the profits of the multi-trillion-dollar wars and collosal financial swindles, we have seen recently.

Robert K. MacDonald
www.psycho-imperialism.com

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I don't care if other people have a particular faith or not and fully understand why some feel comfortable with faith. I would have thought that a mark of a society at ease with itself is the ability to allow each member of it to believe in anything or nothing. Judging by the passionate (sometimes vitriolic) comments for an against that I've often read on this site, I can only believe that the UK is somewhat further along this road than the US. Of course I wish we would disestablish the Church of England but it does have the saving grace of being extremely wishy washy. At school my grandson seems to spend as much time on Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam as Christianity and I think that is healthy in a multi-cultural society.

Unfortunately, in our modern world there seems to one overarching deity that is feverishly worshipped by a wide cross section regardless of professed faith or lack thereof - Mammon.

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Wow!!! That's great! Maybe by then we will have come up with another label for folks! And won't that be special. Then we can hate them. Who cares what their beliefs are or aren't. This incessant namecalling will be the downfall of democracy in the West and we are doing our damnest to destroy any freedoms our ancestors established over the century. Point fingers and call names. If they aren't like us hate!!! Wow what legacy we are leaving our children!!

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quite honestly, it would seem anyone with any reasonable intelligience should have no trouble knowing that while not all of us have the time to go to church as we should; however, the freedom of religion is the utimate freedom of creative expression and safeguarding it is a wise choice.

America is a great Nation and the most envied Nation because it possesses in it's National constitution and Nation freedoms which are world class and second to none.

Our Nation was founded on people whom fled seeking to create for themselves and their future generations a Nation that can have active participation in making sure it is never oppressed in that manner again.

HERE IS WHAT STALIN SAYS ABOUT THE USA...

"America, is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within." ... Joseph Stalin

The .ACLU is the biggest Anti-American/democracy/freedom/religion group active in schools and in America today.

The ACLU doesn't think American's are "smart enough" to govern themselves so they have tried to 'force' American's to be governed by the UN which would strip USA of all it's sovereighnty and rights and make US servants to the UN.
then REMEMBA? SEATTLE WASH??? IN 2000??

What they are really after is for the US to submit to the will of the UN and it's International criminal court. What they want is for the US to relinquish it's SOVEREIGNTY relagating WE THE PEOPLE of the US to the status of servants to the UN INSTEAD of being governed by WE THE PEOPLE

THIS would for example entail that any USA person could be apprehended by local Muslim authorities for an offense, real or imagined slammed into the ICC and flown to the Hage, netherlands where they would rot for months waiting for trial and done ENTIRELY without due process. they would get not trial and no confronting of accusers, No protection from double jeopardy and no unanimous verdict for a conviction.

Take a second to THINK about this all of the ACLU/GLOBALISTS within and without the USA think the murderous Al Qaida terriorists should have these rights from way back before the 1990's and NOW... HOWEVER NOT OUR US SOLDIERS and NOT OUR US CITIZENS

NEXT, the ACLU ACLU doesn't think AMERICAN'S parent's are SMART ENOUGH to have a say in how their children should be raised and taught.

So, the ACLU has been in our schools attempting to turn our kids into perverts and to wrongly remove prayer and allegience from our schools.

And... now the latest? the ACLU & dems want to turn our kids into unstudious parisites by making FORCING children WHOM STUDY AND GET GOOD GRADES to relinquish their points to those whom DON'T STUDY AND DON'T HAVE GOOD GRADES so the children with NOT GOOD GRADES will go to grad schools for FREE at the expense of the HARD WORK AND STUDY of the children WHOM DO STUDY.

Meanwhile..... the ACLU has been going around schools telling our kids they should NOT want to join the military and that they should NOT want to defend their freedoms/rights and that they should NOT want to defend anyone else's freedoms and rights either.

Additionally....ACLU wants to turn our schools into the playground for phedophiles and perverts the ACLU has on it's payroll and wanting to take away the PARENTS rights to have a say in what their child is exposed to academically in schools.

WANNA know?? what the ACLU 'S opinioin of American's..... they say American's will never "knowingly" accept socialism, but 'diguised' under the name of "liberalism" they will accept every fragment of the socialist party; and one day wake up in a Nation that is Socialist and "wonder" how it all happened to them".

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OH, don't believe it?? here's the quote-- American's will
never "knowingly" accept socialism, but under the name of
"liberalism" they will accept every fragment of the socialist party;
and one day wake up in a Nation that is Socialist and "wonder" how it
all happened". unquote. by Norman Thomas whom is one of the FOUNDERS of the ACLU.


WHILE the ACLU goes around attempting to help entrench the marx/glob/fac/com/soc and the very muslim it seeks to entrench into our Society and then engaging in turning around with that FARCE of a law suit against them citing separation of church and state. WHY?? to use whatever "happens" in this court thing to attempt to screw the USA over by attempting to claim that Christians and and christian prayers in our schools are bad so we would wind up like a mini-Russia figuring no one would notice till it's too late??

There's even litigation where the ACLU wanted to force the USA under UNITED NATION rulership by wanting to force USA STATE SECRETS into public courts to override USA sovereignty.

Well, thankfully Bush told them to stuff a sock in it the USA is governed BY THE PEOPLE, OF THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.

What American's need to investigate is how groups like ACLU/DEMS think
they can count on Americans being BLIND to their COUNTING on
America's stupidity to further their communistic/globalist/marxist/socialistic agenda.

Quite frankly, the grinches at the ACLU list goes on and on in their distaste for anything connected with freedom and democracy.



So, next time you stop at a stop light in front of your local church with your car pool of fun loving kids and you with your jogging suit on our crowded schedules... it's nice to know that when we do find time to get in our best of fashion to go we will have the freedom to go to our choice and not one with some government stooge whose objective is to funnel MORE MONEY AWAY from public into government hands and putting nothing back into it's communities.



As for us... we will make the fashionable choice to have it OUR FREE CHOICE.

I THINK ravel from wikipedia said it best:

The democracies that will surely perish will be those who cannot tell the difference between good and evil, survival and ruin, freedom and tyranny. Or, perhaps more to the point, the greatest danger faced by democracy are those who deny that there is any real difference after all

SEE stoptheaclu.com and The American Center for law and Justice

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The sad fact of religion is that it has been the cause of all of the blood shed in the world from day one. It is a good thing to be a spiritual person, to care about our fellow beings and to follow the Golden Rule. But the dogma of all religions is killing us.

"My God is better than your God" "If you don't believe what I believe, I must kill you." When does it stop? Can we never use our brains for the betterment of mankind? For ALL of mankind?

If we are to survive in this morass of religions we have to start listening to each other and respecting our differences. It's okay if the Jews and the Palestine people have different views on life. Why can't we all talk with each other and try to live in peace?

It is fine for Obama to talk with all other leaders in the world, no matter what they believe. Carter did it and formed the longest lasting peace in the Middle East.It was infuriating that the Democratic Party shunned Jimmy Carter at the convention in Denver just because he told the truth about Israel. Even Israel should be peaceful in their dealings.

Why should we all get our knickers in a twist about the fact that more people should be non believers? It is a good thing that more people are actually thinking and not accepting the dogma of ALL churches.

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BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH WHO REALY KNOWS THE TRUTH, FOR SURE RELIGONS DO NOT.... ALL THEY WANT IS MONEY.

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I only want to make two points on this subject. First, salient to the title of my post, this particular POV has been allowed to flourish in a time and place of relative prosperity and peace. It has as much to do with the hard-earned disbelief of returning World War I soldiers as American Christianity has to do with the original faith in Palestine. As such, the current secularist crop, by and large, has not been tested by fire. Until it has, it would be a mistake to call this a movement of any strength.

Second, if this movement copies the idiotic mistakes of its ideological opponents, expect a stiffer resistance from folks like myself, who have no love for Christian Inquisitors and even less for anyone who reminds me of them. Don't leave folks alone, they may give you a lot of grief. The world needs less pushers, not more.

Please keep all that in mind. Thank you.

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Last week I went to Mars and talked to God,
and he told me to tell you to hang tight and don't worry,
the solution to everything is death.

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I gave up on Christianity in high school, not because I don't believe in Jesus but rather, because I don't believe that Christianity has anything remotely in common with Jesus and likewise, I don't believe that any known religion has anything remotely in common with God.

Mine is an extremely minority view today, but was more common among the so-called "founding fathers", who used distinct terms such as "religion", "Creator" and "church" very deliberately, because in the culture of the 18th Century, these terms clearly had different meanings. There is much mis-information being spread around today by various authors and organizations of all stripes, among them the AUSCS mentioned in this article.

I have emailed them several times without receiving any response regarding the obvious historical discrepancies between what they pretend Jefferson, Madison and Franklin believed and what the three of them actually stated they believed. It is a great disservice when so-called "progressives" grossly misrepresent the known historical reality.

Madison, after drafting the 1st Amendment, stated it would "aid in the spread of Christianity." Franklin openly complained during the Constitutional convention that the drafters wern't seeking God's guidance enough. And according to Jefferson, only a complete idiot would conclude there is no God and, only a complete idiot would conclude we are not "endowed" by God with rights reflected in our shared human conscience. That is what "self-evident" means.

It would be refreshing if so-called "progressives" could separate belief in God, shared by Jefferson, Einstein, Newton and virtually every major historical scientist, not to mention major historical lights from Isaiah and Jesus through Socrates on down to Gandhi, Schweitzer, King and Chavez, from the idiocy of human religion, which is an easy target quite obviously having nothing in common with either freedom, God, science, human rights and/or reality.

Instead, this article represents the extreme myopic modern bias of lumping "religion" and belief in God in the same category. It is most likely, given the European historical context, that "church" to Jefferson meant a state-endorsed "brand" of religion, such as Lutheranism as opposed to Calvinism, the term "religion" meant an organized tradition, such as Islam and Christianity, while "Creator", "Supreme Judge" and "God", three terms used in the Declaration, very clearly referenced the Creator of universe, above and beyond any and all religious, scientific, political and other human conception and opinion.

There is no such thing as "separation of God and state" in the known writings and actions of any signer of either the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. On the contrary, every signer of the Declaration, by virtue of their signature, attested that 1) it is "self-evident" we are created and 2) it is "self-evident" that human rights are endowed by our Creator. The historical evidence for this is overwhelming, making Jefferson and the Boys of Violent Revolution, hands down, smarter than the entire modern so-called "progressive" community combined.

I've seen various videos by Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris, three historical neophytes who this author seems to think represent some form of enlightenment. Hitchens alone contracted well-known basic historical facts several times within the space of 8 minutes, among other things claiming that the central message of Jesus is to "give no thought for tomorrow", which is only a minor side teaching. The central message of Jesus is to love our neighbor as our self, a rather advanced moral concept that neither Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris or any other modern so-called "progressive" has managed to improve on, in spite of the myriad of absurd inventions they've come up with in direct contradiction to the known historical and scientific evidence.

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we need their moral minority about as much as we needed the last one (popularly known as the moral majority)

while the federalist papers and others warn of the tyranny of the majority...so too, we must defend against the tyranny of the minority...

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Pity your mind is in a little box. You may be comfortable inside, but it is in reality, a prison.

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Apatheists are the majority.

These so called Apatheists includes people who've never been inside a church as well as those who might go every week but do so for duty, family, social networking, etc. All of us can say we know people who are culturally religious (Jews, Christians, Buddhists, etc) but are pretty ambiguous if not downright uninterested in the rest of it.

The Apatheists have no right to call themselves religious. If God demands anything He demands zealousness.

Once you add the numbers of Apatheists to the percentage of non-religious, total would be overwhelming.

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You state "I don't believe that any known religion has anything remotely in common with God." I'd be curious about your view of the UUA.

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There are many Gods and Goddesses, get over it.

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This is America.

in full voice.

loud, contentious, everybody is right.

nobody has to back up their contentions.

Just let it all hang out.

Hell is all the voices yelling at once until no one is heard over the din of knowing everything without any need to prove otherwise.

Go.!
And sin no more!

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i think that most of the comments posted on this issue are not necessarilly about the issue. the issue is the growing number of athiest in the US. not which belief is true or why a belief is wrong or ignorant or something else. but, since so many comments have talked about that, i thought it'd be a good chance for me to voice my own opion.

first, it seems to me that whenever someone hears or reads "Christian", they immediatley think of the Catholic church, obviously because of it's dominance in both size and influence during much of history. but, it is not fair to use only Catholic "doctrine" when many Christian churches do not necesarily believe what the Catholics believe.

second, many people say that the greatest tragedies in history were created by religion. wrong! they were made by men of power who used religion and god as an excuse to do their own bidding. many people agree that after the death of Jesus, their were no more prophets (men who communed and were directed by god) called of god, at least for some time, known as the great apostacy. since those men who did those acts were not told by god to do those things, i believe they are not justified by god or religion.

third, as far as atheism goes, it makes no sense to me. i've honestly tried to understand the concept of it and it seems far more far fetched than the belief in a superior being. even so, i belief that choosing to believe in religion leads to a better lifestyle than those who chose to believe nothing. religion, at least from my point of view, teaches that we should strive for perfection, we should give service to all, we should cherish life, and do good. atheism, again from my point of view, doesn't teach anything because it is not an organized group, but it leads to a life of selfishness, lazyness, idolizing things that are not of worth, and disrespect.

in any case, if you live a life of atheism and its true, life has no meaning, humanity has no meaning, progress has no meaning because there is nothing after. you live a life that is empty and you have no comfort when something dies. if you're wrong, it is my belief through what i've learned in my religion, that you will have a chance to learn, in the life after, the truth. if you refuse, you will not have all the joy you could.

living a religious life. if you're right and you live life the way your religion teaches, you go on to live in paradise. to rest from pain and sorrow for eternity. you try to do your best because you know that what you do has concequences. if your wrong, you've lived a life of unselfishness and rightousness.

these are my opinions.

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Those willing to believe in the absurd, are those willing to commit atrocities.

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We see it everyday. Christains think it's OK to torture? Religious right leaders "family values" leaders having affairs, stealing, lying, etc. Killing to change religious groups to theirs, etc.

What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?

Those who are obsessed with someone else's life and morals usually has a lot to address in their own. They are what I call the "religiously insane".

Yes...Bush and Obama violated something very important in this country called Separation of Chruch and State. They used our tax dollars to buy votes. They are a danger to religious freedom (since the most powerful and wealthy groups controls other groups). They violated the Constitution and should have been tired as traitors. They kicked their oath of office as if it were something not important to our democracy...when it is everything to prevent tyranny.

During one's life one may not believe in God but go back later. With forced religion they don't have that choice. Religious freedom is the choice to believe or not.

Everyone should be allowed that freedom since it is a matter of spirituality by a person. It is none of government's business. Government is not there to force us to believe or not believe.

In times of evengelical extremism Americans have always stopped going to church. They see the dangers. So if religious leaders and government leaders are seeking control and credibility they had better ease off.

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Here I am, my children. I will save each of you for my very own. So now you must sin no more, and you must tith your earnings unto me. Don't be fooled by those many false gods that roam about, tithe only to me.

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I have to say that I have all but quit reading Alternet just like NewsMax. I think if most would stop grazing a learn for a moment that non belief in the real God is part of the agenda of TPTB. Of course many so called Christians who claim to have faith and do, but misdirected faith due to evil that has crept inside. Godless people watch an extreme example and base us all. Sort of like they get the dumbest people when a live report is happening.

While many Christians may be looked upon as ignorant, we have our God, and He ain't from here, so we bow to no man. Everybody has a god. If you don't think so, wake up, better yet, stay asleep- TPTB are about to wake you up. Think this is working for the world? Whatta you think. Look around at the crime, economy, debt, the greed. Yep, godlessness seems to be working just fine.

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I find that hard to believe. I'll bet atheists are found everywhere: in cities and outside of cities.

As for the number of churches per person, what does that mean really? It means there are enough people willing to support them to keep them in existence. But is everyone who is supporting and attending these churches doing so because they are true-blue believers? I'm sure there are. But I bet a lot are sitting in the pews knowing this is total nonsense but are there for other reasons. Maybe some are there because their spouse is a believer, and they love their spouse. Maybe some are there because their parents expect them to be there, and they don't want to disappoint their parents. (Not that there's anything wrong with that other than that they lack the courage to be openly honest with their parents). I bet some are there for the community feeling, a sense of belonging. Maybe some are single and have no family and so have a church family as a substitute. (Not that there's anything wrong with that either as long as they understand their motivation). Maybe a lot are there for the prestige; attending the "right" church and being seen with the "right" people is good for their careers. There are a number of reasons other than faith that draw people to churches. That goes for synagogues and mosques and temples too.

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"so many have clearly fallen away from religion"

I'd say that many people have RISEN BEYOND religion, not fallen away from it!

dboy

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Religion is the problem, and atheism is the solution. Yes demographics are what they are. We need to get contraception and modern medicine to Africa and Asia. But increasingly non-religious Europe and North America will cause new immigrants to become atheist much more quickly than the 300 years it has taken "white" people to do so since the Age of Enlightenment. People of all skin colours will chose freedom from religion once it exists as a viable option which is not submitted to prejudice and bigotry, and critical mass is required for that to happen. It's happening.

The erosion of one superstittion helps erode all the others. The decline of religion lowers beleif in astrology, luck, etc, and the effect is a self-reinforcing feedback loop.

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Let them die thinking they're a martyr.

The only problem is, I'm not willing to give up my single, precious life clearing the planet of these morons.

I'm not expecting another, and I'm not appeasing some fairy tale hoping for one. If i could live in heaven forever...I'd kill myself out of sheer boredom. Imagine how bored you'd be after 6 or 800 years.

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