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Rights and Liberties

The Stomach-Turning Truth About Bush's Torture Programs

By Scott Horton, The Daily Beast. Posted April 28, 2009.


Obama insists America must "look forward" on the question of torture and accountability, but we're far from closure.
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In the space of a week, the torture debate in America has been suddenly transformed. The Bush administration left office resting its case on the claim it did not torture. The gruesome photographs from Abu Ghraib, it had said, were the product of “a few bad apples” and not of government policy. But the release of a series of grim documents has laid waste to this defense. The Senate Armed Services Committee’s report—adopted with the support of leading Republicans senators John McCain, John Warner, and Lindsey Graham—has demonstrated step by step how abuses on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan had their genesis in policy choices made at the pinnacle of the Bush administration. A set of four Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel memoranda from the Bush era has provided a stomach-turning legal justification of the application of specific torture techniques, including waterboarding.

As public and Congressional calls for appointment of a prosecutor and the creation of a truth commission have proliferated, President Obama stepped in quickly to try to turn down the heat. A commission would not be helpful, he argues, and he has made plain his aversion to any form of criminal law accountability. Republicans, meanwhile, bristle with anger as they attempt to defend against the flood of new information. But, in the end, Obama’s assumption that the torture debate has run its course and that the country can now “move on,” as conservative pundit Peggy Noonan urged, may rest in some serious naïveté: Karl Rove and Dick Cheney have different ideas. They’re convinced that Bush-era torture policy is a promising political product for a party down on its luck. Its success on the political stage is just one more 9/11-style attack away.

The latest disclosures can best be grouped in terms of the destruction of a series of long-enduring myths and the emergence of some new truths.

The Broken Myths

  1. Torture was connected to some “rotten apples,” mostly enlisted personnel from rural Appalachia who were improperly supervised.

    The Senate Armed Services Committee meticulously documents the abuses that were chronicled at Abu Ghraib, Bagram Air Base, and other sites and links them directly to techniques that were approved by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and other senior officials in the Bush administration. Even in the case of Abu Ghraib, it shows step-by-step how directions given by Rumsfeld that the harsh techniques he adopted for Guantánamo be imported to Iraq, specifically for use on high-value detainees at the Abu Ghraib facility. Among the 232-page report’s conclusions: “The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of ‘a few bad apples’ acting on their own. The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality, and authorized their use against detainees.

  2. The torture techniques were derived as a last resort, only after other techniques had failed and that interrogators in the field pushed for their use.

    The report shows, however, that the effort to identify and seek authority to use harsh new techniques started shortly after 9/11—that is, in 2001, well before there were any prisoners on whom they could be used. It also shows that the effort had its origin in the White House, specifically in the office of Vice President Cheney and involved a series of persons who had Cheney’s confidence.

    Conversely, the report and other documents emerging since its release shows that interrogators in the field raised sharp objections to the use of the techniques and steadily questioned their efficacy. The team dealing with one prisoner, for instance, voiced the view that he had already furnished all the evidence he was likely to produce and that further waterboarding would be pointless. Nameless “higher-ups” overrode their judgment. That group might well include Cheney, who is known to have maintained a sharp interest in this particular detainee and kept on his desk a file marked “detainees” in which he collected data related to the use of torture. The Senate report documents a series of military officers who raised objections against the use of torture and insisted that their opposition be recorded. And today a further report has emerged from July 2002 (just as the OLC memos were being commissioned), in which the military’s Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (JPRA) expressly referred to the techniques which were being reverse engineered from the SERE program (that JPRA oversaw) as “torture” and insisted that if used they would not produce reliable intelligence.
     
  3. Bush lawyers may have made “honest mistakes” in their legal analysis owing to the extreme pressure that existed in the immediate wake of 9/11, in which they were pressed quickly to give opinions before matters could be fully evaluated.

    One of Bush’s OLC chiefs, Jack Goldsmith, makes the argument, now accepted as a mantra-like defense for the Bush-era torture lawyers, that tremendous pressure and short deadlines were to blame for their failure to properly assess the law. The torture memoranda gave seriously faulty analysis of the law, Goldsmith claims, because of this pressure-cooker environment. We should all be prepared to excuse their lapses for this reason. Goldsmith is not the most objective analyst of the question, and his adamant insistence that he was divorced from the process of giving a green light to torture appears less persuasive as time passes. But the writings of the torture memo writers, particularly of John Yoo, look suspiciously like their academic writing, in which they sought to expand presidential power and authority at the expense of the rights of the other branches. It seems more plausible to conclude just the opposite of Goldsmith’s claims, namely, that they seized upon the crisis that arose in the wake of 9/11 as an opportunity in which they could realize their ideas about limitless presidential powers in wartime.

The Emerging Reality


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See more stories tagged with: politics, iraq, cia, torture, al qaeda, dick cheney, afghanistan, bush administration, karl rove, guantanamo, abu ghraib, george bush, barack obama, john mccain, wmd, donald rumsfeld, criminal, justice department, waterboarding, defense department, scott horton, john yoo, prosecutions, george w bush, jay bybee, sere, peggy noonan, office of legal counsel, torture memos, scott horton daily beast, jack goldsmith, alberto fujimori, john warner and lindsey g, myth and reality about to, torture prosecutions, justice department office, lord peter goldsmith, major paul burney

Scott Horton is a law professor and writer on legal and national security affairs for Harper's Magazine and The American Lawyer, among other publications.

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Failing the Ethical Test of Our Era
Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 28, 2009 12:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dr King wisely told us, "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction....The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of
annihilation."

Slavery was the salient moral issue of the 18th and 19th centuries, and the human rights issue of the 20th and 21st centuries is the right of individuals to protection from torture (including deaths from torture, which constitute murder), forced disappearance, unchallenged and arbitrary detention, summary execution, denial of due process and other abuses at the hands of sovereign states.

Future generations will, if progress in human rights continues, look back in horror at the America of our era and wonder why we permitted such abuses.

Tragically, we're failing the ethical test of our era.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Can it. Posted by: Crazy H
» NO! Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: NO! Posted by: Crazy H
» But what IS your agenda? Posted by: brunowe
» Yeah, right. Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: Yeah, right. Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Even So Posted by: nha16
We're failing the ethical test of our era.
Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 28, 2009 12:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dr King wisely told us, "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction....The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of
annihilation."

Slavery was the salient moral issue of the 18th and 19th centuries, and the human rights issue of the 20th and 21st centuries is the right of individuals to protection from torture (including deaths from torture, which constitute murder), forced disappearance, unchallenged and arbitrary detention, summary execution, denial of due process and other abuses at the hands of sovereign states.

Future generations will, if progress in human rights continues, look back in horror at the America of our era and wonder why we permitted such abuses.

Tragically, we're failing the ethical test of our age.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Sorry for the double post. Posted by: DrBrian
Reagan signed UN law Bush broke
Posted by: John Edward on Apr 28, 2009 12:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actual wording from the UN Convention on Torture.
1 "Torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in any official capacity."
2 "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."
3 "No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture."

And he is Guilty, Guilty, Guilty. The torture apologists are also as guilty as Bush.

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aphinton
Posted by: august hinton on Apr 28, 2009 1:30 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I only wish that the Bush Bashers were half as upset with the fanatical extreme islamics torturing and sawing off the heads of our men,
as they are about the well deserved torturing of our enemies after all else has failed to get info to save Americans and freedom loving Iraqis lives. War is hell, and I don't like it, However I do know whose side I am on and it definitely is not on the side of pampering the enemy.

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» Think a bit more. Posted by: DrBrian
» Great response, Dr. Brian Posted by: Word Mix
» RE: aphinton Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: aphinton Posted by: John Edward
Interesting phrase...
Posted by: kogwonton on Apr 28, 2009 1:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..."Obama’s assumption that the torture debate has run its course and that the country can now “move on,” as conservative pundit Peggy Noonan urged, may rest in some serious naïveté: Karl Rove and Dick Cheney have different ideas. They’re convinced that Bush-era torture policy is a promising political product for a party down on its luck. Its success on the political stage is just one more 9/11-style attack away."

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» RE: Interesting phrase... Posted by: nha16
Moral Values and the Value of Life
Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 28, 2009 2:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of you already know I teach and practice critical care medicine in Bangladesh. It's hard work, and we have few resources and lots of patients, mostly infants and almost all severely malnourished. As soon as we stabilize and transfer one out to the wards, another one or two or three show up.

It's about the tenuousness and preciousness of human life, and the importance of those with whom we share it.

George W. Bush made a lot of being "pro-life" because he had a fondness for embryos and fetuses. Unfortunately, postgestational life wasn't worth much. Our country spends far more on promoting death than promoting healthy life, and I'm very sure that if we reversed the ratios we'd be better liked, safer and happier.

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Scott Horton, how can you talk about the "genesis" of the torture without mentioning the 9/11 lies?
Posted by: pfgetty on Apr 28, 2009 2:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Scott, your article fails like all the others.
You talk about all of the myths about the torture used under Bush, even about how the torture used is ok because of the horror of 9/11. But you just will NOT under any circumstances admit that the real myth is the official story of 9/11, the real genesis of the torture.
What you don't seem to understand is that as long as Americans believe Bush's story of 9/11, torture will seem reasonable to them. After that horror the American people demanded that our president do all he could to keep us safe from more attacks, which seemed imminent. That he cut some legal corners is not that shocking to most Americans in the heat of the battle, while the fear was raging across America.
But, Scott, we both know that that fairytale of 9/11 is a lie. 9/11 was an inside job. The real story was covered up, and the lies were fabricated. And so the excuse for torture is invalid, and the torture is truly unnecessary and a crime.
Some of us, like you and I, do not believe torture should ever be used. But most Americans do not and will never hold to that view. Have another attack against our nation, and torture will again seem reasonable.
The only way to be able to prosecute, successfully, those who brought torture to those innocent people is to expose the lies of 9/11. You can do it. The work has been done already. The proof is there. But it is untouched by journalists, all of them. For some reason all journalists are scared off this subject.
Bring the truth of 9/11 to the American people, demand a new investigation, and the people will demand prosecution of those who fabricated the need for torture.
It is the only way to get justice for these criminals.

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» A troll for sure Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: A troll for sure Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Meant as Comment to Brunowe Posted by: edgar_michel
» RE: Meant as Comment to Brunowe Posted by: edgar_michel
» You are flat out lying (NT) Posted by: brunowe
» Lying? I don't think so. Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: Lying? I don't think so. Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Lying? I don't think so. Posted by: Reader in Japan
The Stomach-Turning Truth About....
Posted by: WeimMom on Apr 28, 2009 3:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some Americans are so quick to prosecute Bush/Cheney, however what about Barry Soetoro? This is even more criminal?

Is Obama campaign cash quashing eligibility suits?
FEC shows more than $1 million paid to top law firm since election

Posted: April 22, 2009
10:20 pm Eastern

By Chelsea Schilling
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

President Obama may be using campaign funds to stomp out eligibility lawsuits brought by Americans, as his campaign has paid more than $1 million to his top lawyer since the election.

According to Federal Election Commission records, Obama For America paid $688,316.42 to international law firm Perkins Coie between January and March 2009.


FEC's Obama For America 2009 April quarterly report, disbursements by payee

The campaign also compensated Perkins Coie for legal services between Oct. 16, 2008 and Dec. 31, 2008 – to the tune of $378,375.52.

Robert Bauer of Perkins Coie – top lawyer for Obama, Obama's presidential campaign, the Democratic National Committee and Obama's Organizing for America – is the same Washington, D.C., lawyer defending President Obama in lawsuits challenging his eligibility to be president.

Where's the proof Barack Obama was born in the U.S. or that he fulfills the "natural-born American" clause in the Constitution? If you still want to see it, join more than 360,000 others and sign up now!

As WND reported earlier, Bauer sent a letter to plaintiff Gregory Hollister, a retired Air Force colonel, of Hollister v. Soetoro, threatening sanctions if he doesn't withdraw his appeal of the eligibility case that earlier was tossed by a district judge because the issue already had been "twittered."

Bauer's warning was dated April 3 and delivered via letter to the plaintiff's attorney, John D. Hemenway. It is not the first such warning issued. Lawyers trying to kill a similar California lawsuit filed on behalf of Ambassador Alan Keyes also said they would seek sanctions against the plaintiff's attorneys in that case unless they left the issue of the president's eligibility alone.

"For the reasons stated in Judge Robertson's ruling, the suit is frivolous and should not be pursued," Bauer's letter warned. "Should you decline to withdraw this frivolous appeal, please be informed that we intend to pursue sanctions, including costs, expenses and attorneys' fees, pursuant to Federal Rule of Appellate Procedure 38 and D.C. Circuit Rule 38."


Bauer also represented Obama and the DNC in Philip Berg's eligibility lawsuit and various other legal challenges. He and the White House have not responded to WND's request for comment.

Perkins Coie serves high-profile clients such as Microsoft, Amazon and Starbucks. In 2006, the firm also represented Salim Ahmed Hamdan, Osama bin Laden's alleged bodyguard and driver.

The FEC allows elected officials to use campaign funds to pay legal fees only if the action/investigations arise as a result of their tenure in office or campaigns, according to Politico.

The FEC report also reveals Obama For America has spent nearly $9.5 million in the first three months of this year – of which $6,365 in legal fees paid by Obama For America also went to Oldaker, Biden & Belair, a firm founded by Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=95772

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The torture apologists are the majority, and that won't change.
Posted by: pfgetty on Apr 28, 2009 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most people, asked after 9/11, I'm sure would have said go ahead and torture to extract information that would thwart more 9/11's.
As long as the official story of 9/11 remains unchallenged by our journalists and political leaders, Americans will back Cheyney and Bush for their legal corner cutting to keep them safe.
All they have to do is bring back the memories of that horrible day.
But expose 9/11 as the inside job that it was, and Americans will become so angry they will demand the heads of Bush and Cheyney.

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» That is utter nonsense Posted by: brunowe
One thing about this issue that really bugs me is ....
Posted by: harryf200 on Apr 28, 2009 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... there are some folk who make more of a fuss about being against torture than they do about being against war! A few hundred people have been cruelly treated or the last few years at the hands of the CIA or their confederates, but thousands have died, no least innocent people horrible and painfully during the execution of the war in Iraq. It seems to me that, if one is unacceptable, so is the other, and - personally - I think both are unacceptable.

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Fopr those who really care about torture and stopping it ...
Posted by: harryf200 on Apr 28, 2009 5:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... go see http://www.prisonexp.org/ "The Stanford University Prison Experiment, where you will find chilling account of how an ordinary mentally stable Joe can become a sadistic monster or a pathalogically sick individual, because of the choices he makes, or feels he must make, given his placement within a specific environment and situation. What is so scary a out this is it reveals the devil within us all, that almost anyone could become a torturer if they were placed in an environment that was coercive enough to influence their behaviour in that way.
"We had created an overwhelmingly powerful situation -- a situation in which prisoners were withdrawing and behaving in pathological ways, and in which some of the guards were behaving sadistically. Even the "good" guards felt helpless to intervene, and none of the guards quit while the study was in progress. Indeed, it should be noted that no guard ever came late for his shift, called in sick, left early, or demanded extra pay for overtime work.....I ended the study prematurely for two reasons. First, we had learned through videotapes that the guards were escalating their abuse of prisoners in the middle of the night when they thought no researchers were watching and the experiment was "off." Their boredom had driven them to ever more pornographic and degrading abuse of the prisoners. Second, Christina Maslach, a recent Stanford Ph.D. brought in to conduct interviews with the guards and prisoners, strongly objected when she saw our prisoners being marched on a toilet run, bags over their heads, legs chained together, hands on each other's shoulders. Filled with outrage, she said, "It's terrible what you are doing to these boys!" Out of 50 or more outsiders who had seen our prison, she was the only one who ever questioned its morality....And so, after only six days, our planned two-week prison simulation was called off. "

And this was just an academic study lasting just 6 days, not the real deal!!

If anyone out there thinks they would not behave in anything like the way the guards did in this experiment, that they would remain as pure as the driven snow, think again.

So, whose fault was it that these dreadful things happened during that minimal 6 days? The subjects of the experiment, or those who designed it? Now put that template on the Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisoners and guards situation, and on the fear and (un)certain intelligence that told guards and interrogators that specific prisoners were terrorists concealing vital information. Who's are the guilty ones there?

Suddenly the issue of culpability becomes less certain.

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This is exactly the problem with hiring "make me do it" type leadership.
Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Apr 28, 2009 5:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even on releasing the memos itself, the ACLU had to sacrifice its duty of doing its regular job of fighting for civil rights just to pressure Obama to even release the memos. And now, Obama still refuses to hold Dubya and his criminal gang accountable despite the fact that they're wanted dead or alive by the public. I've known him to openly admit a couple years ago on an interview with David Sirota (Obama goes to Washington) that he will do nothing courageously against the status quo until and unless it lets him do it. Folks, this is not leadership. This is cowardice. Even FDR had some boldness in him where it actually counted. Yes, public pressure can help but in the end, it is the responsibility of the leader to answer and lead, is it not?

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» RE: Quote, please Posted by: Crazy H
» It's in the articles. Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: Quote please Posted by: Crazy H
» And if you're asking for the Sirota one, here. Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: Quote please Posted by: Crazy H
Torture produced "Actionable Intelligence" for Cheney
Posted by: don_alejandro on Apr 28, 2009 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The MSM often seems to imply that Cheney/Bush justified torture in their good faith effort to aggressively pursue evil-doers, naively not realizing that torture would likely produce faulty intelligence (apparently, despite much advice about the ineffectiveness of torture).

In fact, Cheney was greasing the wheels for torture well in advance of having any prisoners precisely because torture is an effective way of fabricating what Cheney refers to as "actionable intelligence."

Actionable intelligence need not be true or even remotely accurate. For Cheney’s purposes, torture was uniquely useful in providing "actionable intelligence" as his victims eventually learned to fabricate whatever details the Torturer in Chief sought (such as a link between 9/11 and Iraq).

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» Disinformation by Design Posted by: DrBrian
Ethics........
Posted by: Spiritgirl on Apr 28, 2009 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone with any simple understanding, knew when they saw the pictures from Abu-Graib, that those soldiers were following orders! The Bush rationale that they "were just a few bad apples" rang hollow to any reasonably thinking person! And yet, now we must "debate" on why those at the highest echelons of power need to be held accountable?! The nerve, how dare our government bully & bamboozle us about Iran or any other nation that commits human rights abuses and here we have criminals at the highest levels that need to be prosecuted! Torture is wrong, torture is a crime against humanity, torture is unethical and should go against the grain of every descent human being!

Because Americans tends to have short memory when it comes to history (and the Presidential abuse that occurred under Bushco) justice needs to done, future generations will look back at this and ask WTF, why did you let these people get away with this crap! This is not partisan, how dare we allow these people to get away with authorizing torture when: (1) the soldiers that followed those orders are currently in jail, (2) as a nation what are we saying, that as long as you're the President you are above the law, and (3)if we allow this to be the precedent the next time (and there will be a next time) then we become the very thing this Democracy was formed against!

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Torture was primarily a PR stunt
Posted by: leafsong1 on Apr 28, 2009 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The main purpose was to forever stake out the "hardest on terror" ground as GOP territory. This is why they will continue to defend it. For a large portion of the electorte, this issue is a winner for Republicans.

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It's long overdue that we prosecute these vicious torturers, but...
Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Apr 28, 2009 8:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How much longer will the sheeple still accept the Bush regime's "official story" of Sept 11th and ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary???

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» YES! 9/11 is question #1!!!! Posted by: pfgetty
There is two issues
Posted by: EncinoM on Apr 28, 2009 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is Water-boarding and then the other tactics used.

To argue water boarding is not torture is false. We executed Japanese officers after WWII for Water-Boarding. There is no defense for that method.

The others enter a grey area, where what is torture. The UN outlines that you can not cause severe suffering. Here from reading the memos the lawyers attempted to walk a fine line, they attempt to set guidelines that reached the edge of what would be considered torture, but not step over.

I do not think the lawyers need to be criminally punished, maybe professionally disaplined. It is those in the former administration that blame truly rests. They had not only the legal opinions of the lawyers, but the counter arguments from teh military and FBI. It seems as if Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield were driving the show and would have their way regardless of the law. Even Cheney's current defense of it worked does not go to core issue of should it have been done, and if so when?

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» RE: Nader Lost Posted by: robert.noll
» RE: Nader Lost Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: Nader Lost, actually he did not even place Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: Quote please Posted by: Crazy H
» What would Nader do? Posted by: Beck
Just keep it up, Mr. President
Posted by: willymack on Apr 28, 2009 9:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You go right ahead with your looking and going forward, and watch yourself getting eaten alive, starting with your unprotected ass.

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DEMS SEEKING TO FORCE USA UNDER SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING UN SEAT AND ONE WORLD GOV--PART A
Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 28, 2009 11:44 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DEMS run around waiving their arms that about GITMO AND ABU-GARIB and torture while constantly hiding the fact that the USA confiscated in iraq from a taliban safe-house a torture manual with torture so severe it violates every CONVENTION in existence and that gets swept under the rug along with the fact that...

RIGHT NOW friend and foe here and overseas, want to subject the US MILITARY personnel to indictment and prosecution by the ICC.

GERMANY AND ITALY have actually already indicted US CIA agents for supposedly capturing radical islamic terriorists.

This is an infringement on our SOVEREIGNTY and a dagger aimed at our US MILITARY.

As a result, they may soon want to charge our troops overseas whom are fighting against terriorism, with trumped up "war crime" charges.

Charges like claiming Americans committed genocide, or claim we committed crimes against humanity. There's a leftist group in Paris, plus Argentina, Sweden, whom want to charge Rumsfeld for allegedly authorizing torture at Guantanamo bay, and abu Graib prison in Iraq claiming 1984 convention against torture, which FRANCE has used in previous torture cases.

it's really time to put the UN on notice that the days where the USA would mindlessly supply it with money, men, military equipment and blood without conditions are simply over.

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DEMS SEEK TO FORCE USA UNDER SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING UN SEAT AND ONE WORLD GOV--PART B
Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 28, 2009 11:46 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fact the latest---the new UN SEC GENERAL has already stipulated he wants NYC police officers to serve in UN peacekeeping mission in places like haiti, kosovo, and liberia.

here is one more reason why

CLINTON IN 2000 gave his blessing to the whole globalist thing on the UN "INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT (ICC). The DEMOCRATS all along want to make US citizens SERVANTS TO THE UN AS OUR GOVERNMENT instead of a country governed by WE THE PEOPLE.

Thankfully Bush saw the serious threat this Socialist star chamber posed to our military and he told them to stuff a sock in it. Apparantly at that time the UN was insulted by it. Although the REPUBLICANS tried twice to negotiate immunity for US peacekeepers thru the Sec Council.

Well, the anti-Americans at the UN wouldn't have any of it and the Abu Graib prison gave Kofi Annan the opening he wanted. The he tried to wrap himself in the human right mantle by claiming it would be unfotunate for someone to press for such an exemption given the prisoner abuse in Iraq.

We all know that if Mr. Amman really cared a thing about human rights he would have protested the revolving membership of certain countries with human rights track records. However, the Sanctimonious UN and Annan are always silent on the topic of human rights; except when it comes to taking cheap shots at the US



What they are really after is for the US to submit to the will of the UN and it's International criminal court. What they want is for the US to relinquish it's SOVEREIGNTY relagating WE THE PEOPLE of the US to the status of servants to the UN INSTEAD of being governed by WE THE PEOPLE

THIS would for example entail that any USA person could be apprehended by local Muslim authorities for an offense, real or imagined slammed into the ICC and flown to the Hage, netherlands where they would rot for months waiting for trial and done ENTIRELY without due process. they would get not trial and no confronting of accusers, No protection from double jeopardy and no unanimous verdict for a conviction.

Take a second to THINK about this all of the globalists within and without the USA think the murderous Al Qaida terriorists should have these rights from way back before the 1990's and NOW... HOWEVER NOT OUR US SOLDIERS and NOT OUR US CITIZENS.

Even though we can't guarantee that no American soldier is ever taken prisoner by a foreighn state and put before the ICC, we at "least" make sure no US soldier and or civilian meets with this fate.

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DEMS SEEK TO FORCE USA UNDER SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING UN SEAT AND ONE WORLD GOV-PART C
Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 28, 2009 11:49 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, the ICC doesn't want to recognize the CONSTITUTIONAL rights that we as Americans are guaranteed. GET IT?? They too think our constitution is FLAWED.

Meanwhile the globalists Anti-American ICC supporters criticized Mr. Bush claiming we were "undermining international LAW, the reality, THEY were writing new INTERNATIONAL LAWS TO protect themselves.



RIGHT NOW --the GRINCHES at the UN want to create something called a TRANSNATIONAL TREATY where anything protecting our USA PUBLIC that happens in our courts that GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE gets kicked out of court would be sent to THE UN whom will then OVERRIDE THE WILL OF AMERICAN PUBLIC and ENFORCE it's SHARIA LAW rule over this NATION.

Want to know WHAT were the "agreement on the Privileges and immunities of the ICC" ratified with the assent of ONLY 10 NATION--it flat out provides the ICC immunity from "every form of legal process anywhere".

**They stated that the "property, funds, and assets" of the ICC "shall be IMMUNE from search, seizure, requisition, confiscation, expropriation and any other form of interference. And, the ICC and it's assets they said "are to be exempt from all direct taxes" including local taxes and customs.

** Meantime they want to IMPOSE the GLOBAL POVERTY TAX which would most certainly bankrupt the USA; while they engage in the Socialist rhetoric of how we are "selfish" for not wanting to pay more taxes. This is their idea of spread the wealth. Notice the funds are always going someplace else instead of to the PUBLIC.

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DEMS SEEK TO FORCE USA UNDER SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING UN SEAT AND ONE WORLD GOV--PART D
Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 28, 2009 11:54 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many people don't know all throughout history the spread the wealth has always been used in facist/socialist/communist elections.



RIGHT NOW-- OBAMA AND DEMS are attempting to seek a seat at the SHARIA LAW UN and the DEMS want to PUT INTO EFFECT ---TRANSNATIONAL TREATY---what does thaaat mean?? it means anything that the PUBLIC decides in court that is beneficial to WE THE PUBLIC that the GOV doesn't like --it WILL get kicked out of all courts at all levels and be sent TO THE UN international court WHERE they will IMPOSE THE WILL OF SHARIA LAW/UN court on the AMERICAN PUBLIC.

OBAMA AND WASH DC SLUGS WANT TO once again endanger this country by FORCING the US under SERVANTHOOD to the U-NATION which is SHARIA LAW. This will DESTROY our CONSTITUTION and make it IMPOSSIBLE for the USA AMERICAN public to govern themselves. --always the bottom line isn't it??

Long and short of it----the ICC MEMBERS have declared themselves IMMUNE form "personal arrest or detention, Legal process of every kind and immigration restrictions.

Oh then then lastly, the "salaries, emoluments and allowances" of the judges prosecutor deputy prosecutor and the registras of the ICC ARE EXEMPT from taxaition.

What hypocrites, it seems to run DEEP in the UN, but it indicates the lengths to which globalists will go to undermine National SOVEREIGNTY.

There's no mistaking it, the ICC SEVERELY undermines our Sovereignty and has over the years placed our troops at great risk.

It CLAIMS complete jurisdiction over every person in the world and it makes no difference to them whether or not that nation has even ratified the treaty.

And, FRANKLY our own constitution may soon be up to the interpretation of 18 foreign -and for the most part hostile-ICC JUDGES.

Long and short of it, the ICC is literally a dagger in the heart of our US SOVEREIGNTY, our freedom and our independence.

DO you want to know what the ACLU thinks about how 'STUPID' they view Americans. Here is what Norman THOMAS one of the Founders of the ACLU says QUOTE Americans will never "knowingly" accept Socialism, but under "liberalism" Americans will accept every fragment; and one day wake up in a Socialist Nation and "wonder" how it all happened.

What we need to investigate is how the DEMOCRATS and ACLU think that they can continue to count on Americans being as stupid as the ACLU thinks Americans are. So they can further their Soc/glob/marx/fac/comm agenda.

RIGHT NOW---PUBLIC SIGNATURE is needed to seek protection for the PUBLIC SOVEREIGNTY---SEE American Center for law and justice

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UK Parliament Hears Evidence on Torture
Posted by: tony_opmoc on Apr 28, 2009 2:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Human rights inquiry hears from former ambassador on torture.

http://www.parliament.uk/

video

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» What's Gordon Brown's take on all this? Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: What's Gordon Brown's take on all this? Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
This is torture? Don't make me laugh.
Posted by: AJR Journal on Apr 28, 2009 6:40 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's see just how scary this stuff was:
1) Let me lock you in a box with a caterpillar. Let's see how long you hold out.
2) Let's make a loud noise, just out of your sight. That will sure make you talk.
3) Let me feed you a bland, yet nutritious diet, day in and day out. You will crack in no time!

Wow! NOW I see what you meant.

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