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AlterNet / By Liliana Segura
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New Bush Torture Bombshell Memos: 10 Horrifying Discoveries

Slamming prisoners into walls, locking them in boxes with insects; these memos are the smoking gun for the sadistic crimes of the Bush administration.
April 17, 2009  |  
 
 
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The Obama administration has finally released four long-awaited legal memos used by the Bush administration to design its torture program -- and although their existence,  like U.S. torture itself, has been an open secret for years, the memos are nonetheless shocking.

Written in a dispassionate legal tone, the documents contain the professional opinion of Office of Legal Council attorneys Jay Bybee and Steven Bradbury as they assessed the CIA's "harsh interrogation techniques" between 2002 and 2005. Each method is described in sadistic detail, and each would surely be heinous if experienced on its own. But, as pointed out in the famous "Bybee" memo, dated August 1, 2002 -- the "interrogation team planned to use these techniques "in some sort of escalating fashion, culminating with the waterboard, though not necessarily ending with this technique."

The torture memos are available on the ACLU website. But if you can't bring yourself to read them, below are ten disturbing excerpts that provide a hideous glimpse of what was done in the name of Americans in the so-called "war on terror." As you read them, keep in mind that the Obama administration has already announced that it will not seek charges against the people who carried out the actions they describe. "In releasing these memos, it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution," Obama said in a statement.

"This is a time for reflection, not retribution. ... We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history. But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past."

Attorney General Eric Holder released a statement, too. "It would be unfair to prosecute dedicated men and women working to protect America for conduct that was sanctioned in advance by the Justice Department," he said.

Which was exactly what the Bush administration intended.
 


1. Walling (Bybee memo, August 1, 2002)

"A flexible false wall will be constructed. The individual is placed with his heels touching the wall: The interrogator pulls the individual forward and then quickly and firmly pushes the individual into the wall. It is the individual's shoulder blades that hit the wall. During this motion, the head and neck are supported with a rolled hood or towel that provides a c-collar effect to help prevent whiplash …

"You have orally informed us that the false wall is in part constructed to create a loud sound when the individual hits it, which will further shock or surprise the individual. In part, the idea is to create a sound that will make the impact seem far worse than it is and that will be far worse than any injury that might result from the action."

2. The Facial (or Insult) Slap (Bybee memo, August 1, 2002)

"With the facial slap or insult slap, the interrogator slaps the individual's face with fingers slightly spread. The hand makes contact with the area directly between the tip of the individual's chin and the bottom of the corresponding earlobe. The interrogator invades the individual's personal space. The goal of the facial slap is not to inflict physical pain that is severe or lasting. Instead, the purpose of the facial slap is to induce shock, surprise, and/or humiliation …"

3. Cramped Confinement & insects Placed In a Confinement Box (Bybee memo, August 1, 2002)

"You would like to place (Abu) Zubaydah in a cramped confinement box with an insect. You have informed us that he appears to have a fear of insects. In particular, you would like to tell Zubaydah that you intend to place a stinging insect into the box with him. You would however, place a harmless insect in the box. You have orally informed us that you would in fact place a harmless insect such as a caterpillar in the box with him...

"Focusing in part on the fact that the boxes will be without light, placement in these boxes would constitute a procedure designed to disrupt profoundly the senses...


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The US: Rogue Superpower
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Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 17, 2009 1:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Drugs possession violators harm only themselves, common criminals harm one person or a small number of people, but war criminals harm the nation. Not only are their actions manifestly unlawful and ethically repulsive, but military and intelligence sources admit that they are a recruiting boon to terrorists and have done nothing at all to enhance our security. Our allies are dismayed and wary of cooperating with us, and anti-Americanism is on the rise worldwide.

Obama's Nixonian justification that it's all right to commit egregious crimes if the president ordered it is disgusting, not to say fascist. Surely these well educated goons knew that slamming heads into walls, binding people in positions calculated to damage nerves and joints, disappearing people and, in dozens of cases torturing them to death, was a crime.

There is thus no accountability, no deterrent to future atrocities, no acknowledgment of the suffering, humanity and rights of the victims, no signal to our friends and enemies that we care about human rights.

The US should immediately quit its effort to obtain a UN Human Rights seat, stop publishing human rights reports and speaking out about other nations' atrocities, and sit in the rogues' gallery in ignominious silence with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and, yes, Israel.

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» RE: The US: Rogue Superpower Posted by: CRaPWHiSPeReR
» RE: Don't expect anything from Obama Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Nixons' 'downfall' ... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: We want our credibility back Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Right on Sis' Posted by: godsbreath64
» RE: When I saw H... Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: weathered
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: weathered
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: EncinoM
» Encino, you don't me at all. Posted by: weathered
» RE: ncino, you don't me at all. Posted by: weathered
» Quannah please Posted by: weathered
» RE: Quannah please Posted by: EncinoM
» I think our society Posted by: realtruther
» Pickings slim there Billy? Posted by: godsbreath64
» Full of sh*t, god? Posted by: GuitarBill
» LOL. Posted by: GuitarBill
» Jersey Girls Posted by: weathered
» Riddle me this? Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: iddle me this? Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» P.S. Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» Sheesh, people... Posted by: DrDon
» RE: The US: Rogue Superpower Posted by: GREYDOG
» RE: The US: Rogue Superpower Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: The US: Rogue Superpower Posted by: Spiritgirl
» RE: The US: Rogue Superpower Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» Thank You "DrBrian" Posted by: mmckinl

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Sadly
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Posted by: Schnookums on Apr 17, 2009 1:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sadly Obama is unlikely to truly investigate these and other charges because doing so may reveal that many recent presidents have authorized similar treatment. Our country changed a long time ago...we are just now finally catching on. Upon close inspection, the difference between Democrats and Republicans is small indeed...

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» RE: Sadly Posted by: Javan
» RE: Sadly Posted by: odette7

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As long as those ultimately responsible are punnished.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: cordas on Apr 17, 2009 1:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I must admit I admire Obama's stance on issuing these emails without blacking out everything that makes them important. I also admire his statements regarding protecting the security services.

I just hope that the door he has cunningly left open by not defending those who created and "justified" these programs is kicked wide open and those truely responsible are punished!

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Not Surprised, Still Incensed
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Posted by: cocozane on Apr 17, 2009 1:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't say that reading the story surprised me at all, but it still angered and disgusted me; the fact that no one will be prosecuted makes releasing the memos just an exercise in PR. I did not expect the Obama administration to slap the people involved in the torture apparatus really hard, but I did expect some sanctions, a tangible act of punishment, not just words such as "they were following orders." People need to know that when they follow criminal orders, they become accomplices, and everybody will pay, according to rank and responsibility.

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» RE: Not Surprised, Still Incensed Posted by: Johanna Moren

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Behind the scenes
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Posted by: phead0 on Apr 17, 2009 2:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your phrase >Obama's Nixonian justification that it's all right to commit egregious crimes if the president ordered it is disgusting, not to say fascist.< is most apt as Obama is a bought politician to carry out a big PR coup where the American public are concered - what does Obama get out of it? well,ironically hes the first "black" president of the US and then there are lots side benefits, like he gets paid a small fortune, travels and wines and dines and has access to many opportunities that millions of his black companions will never have - Woody Allen summed it up with "grab the money and run".

But the word facist is the key element here and so being a black facist when the offer is good should not be sneered at - if any good comes, it will of course only be superficial - words that sound like a change designed to create a mental change in the listener but no visible change on the ground.

America is in the hands of a worldwide facist mafia and until the total american people repulse it then it will continue to grow with zionist intrigue to boot.

Dont expect anything from Obama that needs changing cos the forces are there to steer the situation the way they want it. A show of solidarity by the population could well be a long hard general strike.

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So big deal. It's not as if that sissy's gonna prosecute the Bush motherfuckers anyway.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Sports Warrior Casey Jones on Apr 17, 2009 2:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead, it'll just be more big government. When will you liberal sissies fight to abolish the CIA? Or do you have those silly nightmares about the CIA potentially harming Obama if you lift a finger and try? LOL !

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Sick stuff, sick people
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Posted by: mercianomad on Apr 17, 2009 2:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm simply amazed every time, even at my advanced age, that there are people in the world who would do these things to other people, much less think them up. It is a genuine pathology that exists within an institution paid for by the citizenry.

Grade school bullies, sadists, schadenfreude freaks, and people who actually enjoy this stuff - they are all backwards and outdated (but unfortunately abundant) species on the social evolution ladder. So is anyone who tells anyone else to kill, and anyone who does so just because they've been told to. Violence is truly disgusting stuff, whether on ideological grounds or as punishment or as means of acquisition/theft.

I am gentle. So should be the world.

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» RE: Sick stuff, sick people Posted by: mnstra

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Sooner or later
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Apr 17, 2009 2:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is there any boubt this is what the Republicans had planned for all of us?

We should always keep in mind the Right intend to destroy us. We will have to fight them sooner or later.

Right Will Eat Itself

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» Dismantle AIPAC Posted by: weathered

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he has unscrupulous bosses (the real controlers)
[Report this comment]
Posted by: patfr on Apr 17, 2009 2:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think Obama is doing a fine job,but you need to realize he is controlled to some degree by forces that don't give a rats ass about you,or the nations welfare.
You can plainly see that through the internet, we've came a long way towards bringing the truth out,and exposing corruption,(some even in prison),but we must not let them get away with overlooking the inhumane evils of this past administration.With enough pressure from us they will be forced bring these people to justice.
Don't let up, keep contacting senators,reps, and,other gov officials.All of their email addresses,and phone numbers are available. If we let this go it will only get worse. They have GOT TO BE brought to justice

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how long?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: johnwinthrop on Apr 17, 2009 2:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the bush crowd could have been available for indictment, at least those who haven't or aren't about to flee to Paraguay. Apologies to Paraguay if it is no longer a sanctuary for Mengele look alikes. The US is the new Paraguay.

but is there a bigger Shoe to Drop? Did these methods like rendition and waterboarding just appear out of thin air as the al Queda jets exploded over lower Manhattan?

I believe, without hard proof, that the CIA and perhaps elements of the military have tortured alleged enemies of the US for years. We know it happened in Vietnam. And then What? Hard questioning replaced beatings and sticking prisoners in heatboxes?

What happened to Serb prisoners in Clinton's Crusade in Yugoslavia? Iraqi and Palestinian prisoners in wars in the Gulf and in Palestine where CIA and Mossad work very closely?

Does anyone know? Things don't just "start" and "expertise" just acquired.

Since Obama and Holder aren't prosecuting, perhaps the current torturers could tell a congressional investigative team,even with immunity. No one is going to jail; O has a nice truce with the Military and Leon Panetta is a master fixer, so CIA will accept Obama for now.

Nevertheless, Obama should be careful. He might want to watch Stone's "JFK" one evening at the White House.

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For Starters, Impeach Judge Bybee
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Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 17, 2009 3:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Several of these little legal jewels were authored by Federal Judge Jay Bybee. Surely the Judiciary Committee should begin the impeachment process rather than allow so unethical, thuggish, professionally incompetent and blatantly sadistic a sociopath to remain on the bench.

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Hypocrites
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Posted by: D_Gold on Apr 17, 2009 4:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Allies changed military law in 1944 so we could prosecute SS and Gestapo men who were 'only obeying orders'. Prior to that time it was a solid defence for soldiers, including those launching gas attacks in WWI. Why are we now letting torturers go free? - The Nazis were also addressing a 'security' problem...

No prosecutions now gives the green light to repressive regimes everywhere, and makes it that much harder for moral employees to resist illegal orders.

Prosecute those who gave the orders and those who carried them out. Not forgetting us Brits and the so-called 'stress positions' in Northern Ireland.

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» You made my point for me Posted by: red godowar

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Threat of Prosecution as counterproductive as Torture
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Apr 17, 2009 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do 'Whistleblowing' protection cover Torture? I'm guessing not.
Although the acts committed are deplorable, seeking to prosecute the 'grunts' who carried them out is of little use.No Doubt, The CIA has been a agency which has operated outside the laws and good conscience of this country for decades,but going after the 'small fish' will not assure their mode of operations will never be tainted again with such barbaric methods- Ya gotta get the Big Fish.
If faced with the potential of prosecution - how many of these operatives do you think would speak freely about what they did, what they'd seen and who had given the orders? Not a one.Reason we have what's called the Miranda Rights- the right to remain silent to avoid incriminating yourself in illegal activities.
Granted some will take this undeserved 'Get out of Jail Free'Card and feel vindicated or at least exonerated.But others will see this as a Way to confess their sins and the Obama Admin and the Congress should be right there to hear them.
With the threat of looming prosecution these small fish will be battening down the hatches Which is the opposite of what we need to gather concrete evidence against the High Ranking Bush Officials.We need Some to 'Testify, Brother!'We may find there is far more to uncover than those Legal Brief encompass- Like Cheney's Assassination Squad. What did they not get a legal brief on in hopes it would cover their asses? Could there been some involvement with Bhoutos assassination- Other High Ranking Foreign Figures?
We need these lower ranks to begin falling like dominos to see just how far these crimes go. We may find those Torture memos are the least of the High Crimes.
In fact I would be willing to give Amnesty to anyone who brings US Cheney,Rummy & Wolfie on a Silver Platter, Including that arrogant Dumbass W.These Three have about 4 decades of High Crimes to be addressed.W's Admin was not the first time these Three betrayed US. In fact their actions have led to the Catastrophic situation we are in Now. CR&W have been the Reigning kings of the MIC since Nixon/Ford.Although they were interchangeable essentially, Cheney- Oil Industry, Rummy- Military and Wolfie- finance .
Give US them and the rest can be thankful that 'Hail Mary's Full of grace'

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Mark
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Posted by: mdbirdsall on Apr 17, 2009 4:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who went through the military's SERE school (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) during the Vietnam era will be familiar with:
1. Slamming into the double wall
2. Waterboarding
3. The little box

These were used as examples of the techniques / torture which the enemy (vietcong) used on US personnel.

Now we use them?

Pogo got it right: We have met the enemy, and he is us.

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» RE: Mark Posted by: jrmart

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I don't see anything inhumane?
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Posted by: shiftjammer on Apr 17, 2009 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You read those 10 reasonable techniques. And I don't see a problem. Where's the torture? There getting 3 meals a day. They get to stay up 4 to 5 days in a row. So they can watch American Idol. And the CIA gives them frequent bathes. Sounds like club Med to me. I was prepared to read some hideous stuff. Those techniques are childs play. A real man can handle all of those and still have time to hit the Olive Garden for there all you can eat salads. Before closing time!!

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» RE: I don't see anything inhumane? Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I don't see anything inhumane? Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney

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'repukes'
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Posted by: Bushmaster on Apr 17, 2009 4:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is pretty gruesome, inhumane crap. Perhaps the revealing of it in this way, will enable the public to view it without the side show of plausible 'repuke' denials to muddy the waters or reason and compassion.

There may be a trial in a world court.

What I hope is that Obama moves wisely and is successful in resolving the mess the 'repukes' left behind. I know if those 'repukes' were landlords renting to college students who trashed the place before they left they'd be pissed.

However it is you 'we the people' who are the landlords in this economic 'trashing' we have every right to be pissed.

'repuke' definition: Politician. One who makes and passes legislation. One who is influenced by insincere motives and joins with a few to harm the many.

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1984
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Posted by: taxidriver on Apr 17, 2009 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Caged insects? Doesn't this sound like the caged rats in "1984"?

If only we could get the terrorist suspects to say, "I love Big Brother (George W.)"

This is Orwellian, pure and simple.

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» You can thank Israel for Posted by: weathered
» RE: You can thank Israel for Posted by: moyshekapoyre
» RE: You can thank Israel for Posted by: weathered
» RE: 1984 Posted by: Quannah

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Obama Complicit in Bush Crimes
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Posted by: Jeffrey Levy on Apr 17, 2009 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The President is required by law to uphold the constitution, and is therefore required to prosecute officials who conceived, designed and implemented torture.

By making these officials immune to prosecution, Mr. Obama renders himself complicit in the Bush-era crimes.

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Before Israel, Islam was of little concern to America
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Posted by: weathered on Apr 17, 2009 6:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
now look what we've got? Enough material for MSM/NPR/PBS to keep the public tethered to a very dark, diabolic agenda - its sick.

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Down with Obama
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Apr 17, 2009 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While it is certainly preferable to start prosecutions at the very top, that's not what Obama is doing. Obama is very deliberately prosecuting nobody, and he's not getting ready to prosecute somebody, either. War criminals and white collar criminals get a free pass from the Obama Adminstration simply because Obama is trying to help them get away with their crimes. He is trying to legitimize those crimes so that such criminals never have to face even the shadow of prosucution in the future. He is gutting the rule of law, which is the basis for the constitutional order. He is following in Bush's footsteps. He is an accessory after the fact to every obviously criminal act that he deliberately refuses to prosecute. Obama is a war criminal, a fraud, a liar, a thief, a traitor, a coward, and an oathbreaker. He should be removed from office, prosecuted, and executed.

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NEW WORD: OBAMANATE
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Posted by: Triton on Apr 17, 2009 6:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To obamanate is when it is expedient to ignore crimes such as torture for political gain. When Mr. Bush left the White House many of us had hopes that his replacement would open the windows and let the stench out of the Oval Office. Obama"s unwillingness to probe the vile and criminal behavior of the leader of this exercise in brutality and his henchmen is yet another reason we should be concerned about the future of the United States.

AS I recall, transparency was one of the novel features Obama would bring to Washington. This action is a clear example of just what his idea of transparency means. It is no more than the furtive behavior of a political weasel.

It is depressing to see that we have elected a president who is devoid of grace and appears to be little if any improvement over the village idiot from Texas.

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» RE: NEW WORD: OBAMANATE Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: NEW WORD: OBAMANATE Posted by: cmaciain

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Action Required - by YOU
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Posted by: Fishbone Soldier on Apr 17, 2009 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is clear by Obama's statement that he is not interested in holding those who made these decisions accountable. Our country tortured, maimed and murdered the suspected (meaning, the innocent and possibly guilty). This happened. It was planned and approved. It is sadistic, the kind of stuff that people who've watched too many horror movies think is a good idea. And it was done in our name.

Those responsible for these decisions MUST be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. We must overcome the right-wing media bias to make sure that this happens. Not out of vengeance. Not really even out of justice. But to prove that America is more important than the psychopaths who were in charge. If we do not hold them accountable, it does two things. 1) It says to the world that we truly don't give a fuck about this. That it's not important to us, and that we have no problem with it because it's in the past. Think about what that means for our moral standing. Think about what it means for America's future. 2) It says to any potential elected official that they can do whatever they want and get away with it. How many Bush people came from Nixon's staff? Rumsfeld. Cheney. Wolfowitz. They never paid the price for previous crimes and took things farther. What's next? A preemptive war in the Middle East, just for the hell of it? Oh wait. Unlawful murder of innocent people? Oh wait. Seriously, I don't know what's next, but something must be done. We're talking about our nation's future.

Obama's not going to prosecute without a massive groundswell of support. It's too politically risky. We must make him do something. So now we all must take action. Write to the editorial board of every paper you read. Make one letter and copy and paste if you have to. Write your representatives in congress. Send that letter every day. Rant and rave if you want. Write something coherent. Write something crazy. Just write something. And make your friends do it, too. The media must be overwhelmed to the point where they finally get on the people's side. Please, do it now. Write three sentences. Prosecution is required for the sake of our nation.

Many have said, "Never again", implying that they will not stand for the rounding up, torture, and murder of innocent people. This is precisely what happened. It is too late to say "never again" in this situation. But there's something we can do about it in for future. Never again.

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» Dismantle AIPAC Posted by: weathered

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Wow
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Posted by: JTMixer5 on Apr 17, 2009 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems pretty legit to me, also would appear the detainees health is kept in mind here. But, I bet the CIA takes it FAR beyond how its spelled out on that paper.

RT
Privacy Center

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» RE: Detainee's health? Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: If you're Cheney's maid ... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: If you're Cheney's maid ... Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: If you're Cheney's maid ... Posted by: Cybershaman

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This is torture? Don't make me laugh.
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Posted by: AJR Journal on Apr 17, 2009 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Harmless insect in a box? Ouch!
Sleep deprivation? How can they stand it?
Flicking cold water on them? That is tough.
Bland (yet nutritious) diet? Brutal.

I don't know how prisoners stand it. I would crack in a second.

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» RE: Your sarcasm isn't funny Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» That is not torture! Get serious. Posted by: AJR Journal
» RE: Silliness ... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: mercianomad
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Does this make you laugh? Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» This stuff is not torture! Posted by: AJR Journal
» Torture is knowing over 3000 Posted by: weathered
» AJR Journal Posted by: weathered
» Tell your Mom I said "Hi" Posted by: AJR Journal
» RE: This stuff is not torture! Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: Stop lying to yourself Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: Stop lying to yourself Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Stop lying to yourself Posted by: Quannah
» OK, at least you kinda defined it Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: OK, at least you kinda defined it Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» Name-calling is a very bad habit. Posted by: AJR Journal
» RE: Name-calling is a very bad habit. Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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The Bush/Cheney Regime Defiled our American Flag...
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Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Apr 17, 2009 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
with the blood of torture victims! Furthermore, many of these men/women could well been innocent goat herders framed to get the bounties & rewards, for all we know!

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Mccain or Obama, this proves that it would have been all the same.
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Apr 17, 2009 8:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok, fire away ...

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It's now Obama's torture
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Posted by: Thomas O. Anderson on Apr 17, 2009 8:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just as Obama took ownership of Bush's wars with their expansion, his refusal to prosecute torture makes him complicit in supreme world crimes.

Barack Obama, the warmonger who rode to DC on a "peace train," is no longer a simple fraud.... He's a threat to America's soul.

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» RE: It's now Obama's torture Posted by: weathered
» Obama never promised to not take ownership. Posted by: JenniferBedingfield

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Fascists torture.
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Posted by: folkie on Apr 17, 2009 8:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And they don't care who does the torturing or who is tortured, because they think torture is fun--read the comments after this video:

Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches

Fascists just want to kill people and blow stuff up. Yesterday at the mall I walked past a very pleasant looking young man talking to another dude who had apparently just asked him what he did. He answered, "I blow sh*t up."

That's a career and he's proud of it. We used to be proud of building things and making things. Now we just blow sh*t up and f*ck people up. On my way to the organic garden at the community college I pass a building that is labeled, "Military Education." Blowing sh*t up and f*cking people up are respectable career choices. One nearby college has a deal with a private mercenary company where the college uses the merc's shooting range and the mercs use the college meeting rooms.

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» RE: Fascists torture people Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Krishna - Shiva Posted by: Cybershaman

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Shielding criminals and their crimes is a crime
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Posted by: adelaney on Apr 17, 2009 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the big O does not prosecute these disgusting torturers who committed heinous crimes, then he is a collaborator in that crime and should be prosecuted too...

Sorry O there should be no clemency for this treasonous torture!!!

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A day in the life of teaching
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Posted by: maddy on Apr 17, 2009 9:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A relevant anecdote:

I once taught a college course about US war propaganda during WWII. The central question of the course was how the US State Dept and the media tried to manage various domestic social tensions in the US in their myriad efforts to keep the populace united in the war effort.

So, obviously, Japanese Internment was on the syllabus. The students saw photos, read a memoir, and examined the US's legal and public justifications for stripping more than 100,000 American citizens of their rights and, let's not forget, their property.

We also watched a documentary film--and this is important--that's central theme was that the Japanese adults who were interred suffered years of humiliation both during and afterward, so much so that future generations had to navigate around and break through a collective silence about it.

The memoir described daily life in the camp. They had, yes, 3 meals a day and "modest" rooms. They built water gardens, created their own political leadership structures, schools for the children, adult fraternal organizations, and so on. In short, they demonstrated resilence as they tried to create more normal daily lives. The reason they were there, in other words, became a kind of ominous backdrop that most tried not to acknowledge in an attempt to endure.

Several students kept saying "Oh it wasn't so bad," "It wasn't so bad," because they weren't physically harmed, or starved, or killed. Ya know, compared to, say, the Holocaust.

I repeatedly used this one anecdote to get them to consider the logic of their dismissal: When the women first arrived and were frog marched to the toilets, they discovered a large empty room filled with toilets and no physical barriers between any of them. One modest woman in the face of it reacted in utter horror. An elderly woman saw her and lent her a large piece of cardboard so that the woman could try to get some kind of privacy. On the one hand, it's a story of compassion and resilience, but multiply that indignity by the hundreds when you consider how many years they remained there. It saddened me that I had to point this out many many times: dignity matters.

So, can you imagine how many contemporary Americans--you can see them on this message board already--will point to the closing passages of these memos to say "It wasn't so bad?, "It wasn't so bad."" They didn't inflict severe physical injury and they didn't kill anyone. So, really, what's the big deal you bunch of liberal pussies???

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» You would make an excellent mentor for Obama. Posted by: JenniferBedingfield

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Stun Guns are torture too, but none of that counts, Daily!
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Posted by: common intelligence on Apr 17, 2009 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fellow Real Americans
Our country is lost and is referred to in name only.

After Natzi Germany Fascists were put to death for crimes against humanity the United States MIC embraced the same path. Eisenhower (R) knew it, Kennedy('s)(D)knew it, Carter knew it, ...The whole congress knows it.

Democrats ans well as Republicans are complicent in torture. But more so Understand this. The CIA, Federal Reserve, FBI, as well as most are "law" enforcement institutions are an organized bunch of sheeple thugs. Those that even enroll in the military voluntarily are complicent in there engagement because they are STUPID SHEEP.

Most believe they can make a difference inside but come to find out they must only "follow orders" to protect them from being "Accountable".

Murdering stupid trigger happy cops all get off the hook of accountability. KNow that in the word of small business the responsibility and accountability is from the top down. But when it come to "big" business in the corpoRAT model Responsibility has been transposed to finding the "one" at the bottom of the pile. The Top of the food chain is protected.

ROOTED in the United States system of oligarchy is protection from Accountability for those that keep the illusion and lies going. Whistle blowers will be stopped in their tracks and they will be the end of the "link", the scapegoats.

The lowest people on the food chain, their wants, wishes understanding and wisdom and know of truth are irrelavent and will now be considered. Sister-Lauren has it pegged. The CIA is the controlling monster. They, with the manipulators of financial manipulators will be the over powering forces of the next hundred years.

Even if we "feel" we are making any head way to bring the truth in line with the system, confusing the issues is there game. The end game is this oligarchy is set in their belief only they have the intellectual capacity to direct the fate of mankind. Any opposition , well they can wait it out, because the media keeps everyone moving as 6 second image bits, never letting people get a constant stream of thought to one foundational point.

This is why every single person should stick with one concern, 911. It is the king pin to the link in this chain that we can prove.
(But then again, watch for the switch. T"they" are very good at redirecting the issues. The next switch is WAR. When "they" see the people are getting too focused they pull the FEAR CARD out. It works every time.

Good luck to all of you for trying to get results. But as Yoda says, "There is no try. DO or Not Do.

The only tool they really know the power of is to "divide and conquer". This is where the "people" are weak. We are unorganized and have no true leadership. We have no continuity in a war plan to over come this oligarchy.

So now you all have to ask yourselves. How can we truly unite in one force to challenge the whole system. Working through the COngressional channels is a waste of time.
I beleive we need a "New Continental Congress" Organized by the people. And we need our own CIA to guard it from infil-traitors of the corrupt CIA.

Lets have some real dialog on Challenging the system to the foundation of corruption or...

...just face the alternat-ive truth. "we are f*cked".

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» You are right Posted by: red godowar

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Do this for 13 weeks
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Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars on Apr 17, 2009 9:48 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you will be a United States Marine

then again they have better food

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» RE: Do this for 13 weeks Posted by: JenniferBedingfield

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These horrifying things
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Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Apr 17, 2009 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
will be escalated when visited on our own troops when they are captured in wars. That, unfortunately, is the real meaning of karma. It isn't necessarily those who have done these things who will end up on the receiving end.

I can understand it if Obama wants to shield the people who acted under orders, but I want Bush and Cheney prosecuted. Rumsfeld too. These monsters have ruined our country.

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» RE: These horrifying things Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: These horrifying things Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: These horrifying things Posted by: mjglow

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Again, 'show me who you walk with
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Posted by: weathered on Apr 17, 2009 10:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and I'll tell youi what you are...'

Please free US from Israel, its made America very sick!
Still stuck in denial, just look around? Enjoy

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» RE: Please free US from Israel Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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DEMS SEEK TO FORCE USA UNDER UN SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT--part A
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Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 17, 2009 10:24 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DEMS run around waiving their arms that about GITMO AND ABU-GARIB and torture while constantly hiding the fact that the USA confiscated in iraq from a taliban safe-house a torture manual with torture so severe it violates every CONVENTION in existence and that gets swept under the rug along with the fact that...

RIGHT NOW friend and foe here and overseas, want to subject the US MILITARY personnel to indictment and prosecution by the ICC.

GERMANY AND ITALY have actually already indicted US CIA agents for supposedly capturing radical islamic terriorists.

This is an infringement on our SOVEREIGNTY and a dagger aimed at our US MILITARY.

As a result, they may soon want to charge our troops overseas whom are fighting against terriorism, with trumped up "war crime" charges.

Charges like claiming Americans committed genocide, or claim we committed crimes against humanity. There's a leftist group in Paris, plus Argentina, Sweden, whom want to charge Rumsfeld for allegedly authorizing torture at Guantanamo bay, and abu Graib prison in Iraq claiming 1984 convention against torture, which FRANCE has used in previous torture cases.

it's really time to put the UN on notice that the days where the USA would mindlessly supply it with money, men, military equipment and blood without conditions are simply over.

In fact the latest---the new UN SEC GENERAL has already stipulated he wants NYC police officers to serve in UN peacekeeping mission in places like haiti, kosovo, and liberia.

here is one more reason why

CLINTON IN 2000 gave his blessing to the whole globalist thing on the UN "INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT (ICC). The DEMOCRATS all along want to make US citizens SERVANTS TO THE UN AS OUR GOVERNMENT instead of a country governed by WE THE PEOPLE.

Thankfully Bush saw the serious threat this Socialist star chamber posed to our military and he told them to stuff a sock in it. Apparantly at that time the UN was insulted by it. Although the REPUBLICANS tried twice to negotiate immunity for US peacekeepers thru the Sec Council.

Well, the anti-Americans at the UN wouldn't have any of it and the Abu Graib prison gave Kofi Annan the opening he wanted. The he tried to wrap himself in the human right mantle by claiming it would be unfotunate for someone to press for such an exemption given the prisoner abuse in Iraq.

We all know that if Mr. Amman really cared a thing about human rights he would have protested the revolving membership of certain countries with human rights track records. However, the Sanctimonious UN and Annan are always silent on the topic of human rights; except when it comes to taking cheap shots at the US

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keeping rendition = keeping torture
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 17, 2009 10:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
two days after taking office, obama announced the decision to maintain the CIA 'extraordinary rendition' program. biden said, "you need to preserve some tools - you still have to go after the bad guys."

while no solid numbers were ever posted by the usg itself; word back in 2006 was that there were between 49-60,000 disappeared being held in this international ring of secret prisons and torture chambers under less watchful eyes than even gitmo or abu graib. we have plenty of reports from gitmo; none from any of these other hellholes.

we have since been told that "all secret CIA prisons have been closed." however, the prisons used in the rendition program were not CIA and are not closed, nor emptied of captives held for the usg.

it should also be said that the just-released memos on torture techniques is far from being the same thing as the actual events. what is written in couched terms in a government office is a different thing from how a thug applies those guidelines in a hidden cell.

obama continues to act and make statements to the effect that torture-as-policy has been ended and that the rule of law has returned in full. yet, reports from gitmo from attorneys of prisoners still held there indicate that not only is torture still ongoing but has actually intensified.

it should also be mentioned that the closing of gitmo has been delayed until sometime in 2010 to 'resituate' those prisoners. what of the allegedly emptied other CIA torture chambers; how were they so much more rapidly emptied?

so the reality is the continuation of torture and the wars. again feverishly attempting to look like change, the fact is of maintaining 50,000 us troops in iraq indefinitely to maintain the colonial status of iraq and its oil. that figure doesn't include contractor/mercenaries such as 'xe,' the new PR name for blackwater, or dynecorp or KBR, etc. goons who commit mass-murders with impunity for kicks.

yesterday, immediately after the DoJ assured us that it had ended the increased NSA illegal spying on us all, atty genl holder reinstituted those exact spy programs and methods. what? it's the shell game; now you see it; now you don't. actually we saw it and still see it; nothing has changed an iota.

obama standing in the way of prosecution for crimes against humanity is a strong indicator that he knows he is and will continue to commit war crimes and is maintaining these positions to further create precedent barring his own trial when the time comes.

onward christian soldiers...

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DEMS SEEK TO FORCE USA UNDER SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING A SEAT AT UN AND ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT---PART B
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Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 17, 2009 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What they are really after is for the US to submit to the will of the UN and it's International criminal court. What they want is for the US to relinquish it's SOVEREIGNTY relagating WE THE PEOPLE of the US to the status of servants to the UN INSTEAD of being governed by WE THE PEOPLE

THIS would for example entail that any USA person could be apprehended by local Muslim authorities for an offense, real or imagined slammed into the ICC and flown to the Hage, netherlands where they would rot for months waiting for trial and done ENTIRELY without due process. they would get not trial and no confronting of accusers, No protection from double jeopardy and no unanimous verdict for a conviction.

Take a second to THINK about this all of the globalists within and without the USA think the murderous Al Qaida terriorists should have these rights from way back before the 1990's and NOW... HOWEVER NOT OUR US SOLDIERS and NOT OUR US CITIZENS.

Even though we can't guarantee that no American soldier is ever taken prisoner by a foreighn state and put before the ICC, we at "least" make sure no US soldier and or civilian meets with this fate.

However, the ICC doesn't want to recognize the CONSTITUTIONAL rights that we as Americans are guaranteed. GET IT?? They too think our constitution is FLAWED.

Meanwhile the globalists Anti-American ICC supporters criticized Mr. Bush claiming we were "undermining international LAW, the reality, THEY were writing new INTERNATIONAL LAWS TO protect themselves.



RIGHT NOW --the GRINCHES at the UN want to create something called a TRANSNATIONAL TREATY where anything protecting our USA PUBLIC that happens in our courts that GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE gets kicked out of court would be sent to THE UN whom will then OVERRIDE THE WILL OF AMERICAN PUBLIC and ENFORCE it's SHARIA LAW rule over this NATION.

Want to know WHAT were the "agreement on the Privileges and immunities of the ICC" ratified with the assent of ONLY 10 NATION--it flat out provides the ICC immunity from "every form of legal process anywhere".

**They stated that the "property, funds, and assets" of the ICC "shall be IMMUNE from search, seizure, requisition, confiscation, expropriation and any other form of interference. And, the ICC and it's assets they said "are to be exempt from all direct taxes" including local taxes and customs.

** Meantime they want to IMPOSE the GLOBAL POVERTY TAX which would most certainly bankrupt the USA; while they engage in the Socialist rhetoric of how we are "selfish" for not wanting to pay more taxes. This is their idea of spread the wealth. Notice the funds are always going someplace else instead of to the PUBLIC.

How many people don't know all throughout history the spread the wealth has always been used in facist/socialist/communist elections.



RIGHT NOW-- OBAMA AND DEMS are attempting to seek a seat at the SHARIA LAW UN and the DEMS want to PUT INTO EFFECT ---TRANSNATIONAL TREATY---what does thaaat mean?? it means anything that the PUBLIC decides in court that is beneficial to WE THE PUBLIC that the GOV doesn't like --it WILL get kicked out of all courts at all levels and be sent TO THE UN international court WHERE they will IMPOSE THE WILL OF SHARIA LAW/UN court on the AMERICAN PUBLIC.

OBAMA AND WASH DC SLUGS WANT TO once again endanger this country by FORCING the US under SERVANTHOOD to the U-NATION which is SHARIA LAW. This will DESTROY our CONSTITUTION and make it IMPOSSIBLE for the USA AMERICAN public to govern themselves. --always the bottom line isn't it??

Long and short of it----the ICC MEMBERS have declared themselves IMMUNE form "personal arrest or detention, Legal process of every kind and immigration restrictions.

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DEMS SEEKING TO FORCE USA UNDER SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING SEAT AT UN AND ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT--PART C
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Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 17, 2009 10:38 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What hypocrites, it seems to run DEEP in the UN, but it indicates the lengths to which globalists will go to undermine National SOVEREIGNTY.

There's no mistaking it, the ICC SEVERELY undermines our Sovereignty and has over the years placed our troops at great risk.

It CLAIMS complete jurisdiction over every person in the world and it makes no difference to them whether or not that nation has even ratified the treaty.

And, FRANKLY our own constitution may soon be up to the interpretation of 18 foreign -and for the most part hostile-ICC JUDGES.

Long and short of it, the ICC is literally a dagger in the heart of our US SOVEREIGNTY, our freedom and our independence.

DO you want to know what the ACLU thinks about how 'STUPID' they view Americans. Here is what Norman THOMAS one of the Founders of the ACLU says QUOTE Americans will never "knowingly" accept Socialism, but under "liberalism" Americans will accept every fragment; and one day wake up in a Socialist Nation and "wonder" how it all happened.

What we need to investigate is how the DEMOCRATS and ACLU think that they can continue to count on Americans being as stupid as the ACLU thinks Americans are. So they can further their Soc/glob/marx/fac/comm agenda.

Prior to elections we repeatedly had to complain to the REPUBLICANS that our posts were stonewalled by sites because no one wanted to know the truth.

RIGHT NOW PUBLIC SIGNATURES ARE NEEDED TO PROTECT SOVEREIGNTY---see American Center for law and Justice

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What is Torture?
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Posted by: jal64 on Apr 17, 2009 10:40 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, folks. I have no sympathy for these poor innocents. Short of bodily harm, such as decapitation, cutting off limbs, stoning or dragging thru the streets, I have no problem accepting any of these so-called "in-humane" techniques.

Critics want to say these techniques do not produce reliable information when in fact the opposite is the truth. It is documented fact that lives have been saved based on information gathered by these effective techniques.

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» BS alert Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: BS alert Posted by: jal64
» RE: BS alert Posted by: Quannah
» bullshit... Posted by: Annapurna1
» RE: bullshit... Posted by: jal64
» bullshit... Posted by: Annapurna1
» RE: bullshit... Posted by: jal64
» RE: bullshit... Posted by: mercianomad
» you didnt rob the bank... Posted by: Annapurna1
» RE: What is Torture? Posted by: Quannah
» RE: What is Torture? Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: What is Torture? Posted by: Quannah
» RE: What is Torture? Posted by: jal64

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response to the torture memos
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Posted by: mbfromhb on Apr 17, 2009 11:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hey ...i know keith obermann wants the cia guys that actually employed this stuff to be tried....my take is quit 'f'ing around and grab that idiot bush with cheney and all these minions or 'cabal' that basically approved and order this sh**. right by the throat and haul their a** to court. BUSH AND THOSE OTHER IDIOTS ARE TRAITORS!!!!!! i mean how stupid are you people. that idiot bush did all this sh** in the name of the american people. and what they did was PROFIT by it. they made a ton of money. thats what this is all this sh**s about. the right-wingers will say ohhh 911 ohh geezz look out... we had to do everything we did to look out....thats bullsh**!!! thats like your kid tellin' you a story so he doesnt get in trouble. jesus, youve been hearing this crap and theres a very small minority thats still believes all that bullsh**! those idiot rightwingers still believe that saddam hussein was involved in the planning and the action of 911. they still believe that sh**!!. theyre morons. and will never accept the truth. well, all those involved in the conduct of the last 8yrs and thats 8yrs of lying through their teeth in order to profit and manipulate whats happened needs to be tried for treason and HUNG! and dont puss out and say ohh we cant do that... get convictions and run them right to the oak tree...and while theyre say ohh ohh woow baa baa baa wa wa waitt!! while the noose is being fitted no last words just kick the chair. what this is, is right up these rightwingers "we're americans" attitude.. its a perfect object lesson that if you do this sh** again...your gonna be hung!!! old west style!!! now that theyll understand!!!

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» Your writing style Posted by: Bliss Doubt

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876
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Posted by: 876 on Apr 17, 2009 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some heinous Americans spent their time dreaming this stuff up, most likely the same Americans who speak self righteously regarding Saddam’s human rights violations or the crimes against people by the American sponsored Saudis or Taliban. Regardless, none of this will stop the lunatic American masses from daily asserting their supposed moral superiority or civility or insisting invading sovereign nations is America’s right because they do it to protect humanity.

...In addition, female officers involved in the interrogation process may see the detainees naked, and … we will assume that detainees subjected to nudity as an interrogation technique are aware that they may be seen naked by females."

American womanhood in a nutshell; from the nation that gave the world Girl’s Gone Wild. Yes, it is Americans who will teach humanity what a woman should be.

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Everybody Needs To Send This To http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
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Posted by: skiptowne on Apr 17, 2009 12:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do NOT support President Obama's philosophy of NOT prosecuting the Bush administration criminals for using torture. What this country has done, by violating the Geneva Conventions and Constitutional laws, is embarrassing to us, as Americans, and obviously illegal. We need to repair our tarnished world reputation. Holding Bush administration criminals accountable would demonstrate, to the world, that we will not tolerate thuggish behavior in our government. We are better than that.

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Barack oBUSHa - Different Guy - Same ole stuff...
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Posted by: JDrozz on Apr 17, 2009 2:49 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks to AlterNet (for once) for producing a "fairly balanced" article outlining the recently declassified Torture Memos defining techniques used on “Prisoners” in the “War of Terror”… You made an important Note: The Obama Admin has gone to lengths to announce that “it will not seek charges against the people who carried out the actions they describe. "In releasing these memos, it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution," Obama said in a statement.

That is really disheartening… In my estimation - it is a national imperative to rebuke the policies of our very recent past – in the light of day - through the litigious process of Criminal Court Trials against those who drafted, capitulated, and enacted these heinous torture policies. In my opinion, by moving past this core issue, Obama has now added himself to the roster of those people who should be investigated for crimes against humanity and possibly treason for covering up and disrupting the course of justice… But, hey, at least Obama’s “Get out of Jail Free” statement was eloquently drafted – it sounds soooo deliciously literary – Dickens-esque even: "This is a time for reflection, not retribution. ... We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history. But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past. – Barack Obama, April 2009

And to think… all of this started because we were “Attacked” on 9/11 by some crazy dudes in caves… or so they say. But if someone really takes a look back at the events of that day in September – what comes from it? Vilification (You’re anti-American) and Marginalization (You’re just a crazy conspiracy theorist) in the media which is then parroted by the masses… But then - “At a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past.” – maybe we just should not ask the tough questions and hold psychopathic torturers and control freaks accountable for their disgusting actions in OUR names… at least it wasn’t YOU or ME being tortured - You’re right Barack – we should not waste our energy by looking back to the past, and the saying “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it” is just outdated slanderous talk of a different era – We’re about CHANGE now anyway, right? - Thanks President Obama, you’ve set me straight sir! So far you’ve been doing a great job for the “people” (and by “people” I mean – international bankers, global corporate interests, lobbyists, military industrial complex members, the CFR, Trilateral, world royalty, etc.)

More of the same… he is controlled by the same vicious energies that controlled Bush and those before him. There is still time for Obama to change his course of action and really make CHANGE more than just a vacuous campaign slogan. I sincerely hope that he has the strength and audacity to do just that and hold the thieves and liars accountable for their treason against you and I, but his time is running short – very short. If his consistent lies over the past 3 months are an indication of anything it is that we will continue to have our Rights eroded, innocent people will be imprisoned, tortured and killed around the globe and the bankers/corporate interests will continue their pillaging of our money and resources… oh yeah, and we’ll be taxed out of our shirts for our ongoing War of Terror, crumbling infrastructure and personal “carbon emissions”… GO TEAM USA!

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Barack - the new CEO of USA, inc. - Same Policies as BushCO.
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Posted by: JDrozz on Apr 17, 2009 3:02 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I knew that someone has been murdered, I knew who the murderer was, and I did not do anything to bring those people to justice – would I be complicit in the criminal act? YES.

If Obama knows that illegal torture was enacted, knows who the torturers were and does nothing to bring them to justice – he too would be implicate himself in a criminal act. If he does not bring these issues to a criminal court for the prosecution of justice, then, I’m sorry, he is complicit in the actions of his predecessors and therefore guilty through association and non-action. This can be changed however – but only through bold actions of accountability – but the posturing of the Obama Administration does not lend support towards those ends.

To end this cycle of violence, WE must hold Obama accountable for his actions AND the actions of Bush et. all. We cannot simply be pacified by sleight of hand maneuvering and robust political spin, now is the time to hold feet to the fire, and Obama’s feet should be there too… especially because he made so many promises of Change – and things are not changing (for the better at least). We should keep Obama’s own words as a measure of his actions, for instance when he said this about the detainment of ‘terrorists’ in referring to the heinous Military Commissions Act of 2006:

“Human Rights Should Be Bigger Than Politics. And yet, while I know all of this, I'm still disappointed. Because what we're doing here today - a debate over the fundamental human rights of the accused - should be bigger than politics. This is serious.”

Rings a little hollow now… Looks like Politics beat out Human Rights – or else we would have incarcerated those who prompted US torture? Right?

In Spain, they have drafted charges against members of the Bush Administration (John Yoo & others) indicating that if they step foot in Spain, they will be arrested and possibly charged with International War Crimes… Why don’t do that here? It leaves two possible reasons: cowardice or acquiescence… It is clear to me that it is the latter, as Obama’s policies are continuously mirroring Bush’s, just with a better PR cycle.

Simply put – by not pursuing criminal charges against the Bush Administration, Obama has, in effect, condoned their actions and left the door open for his own Administration (and future admins) to continue the policies of torture. Just by closing down Guantanamo (which will not really happen for 1 year) doesn’t mean that torture has ceased, Obama’s Administration still practices Extraordinary Rendition and who knows what happens to the “prisoners” who are whisked away to god-knows-where for who-knows-how-long.

For further evidence of an Obama Cover-up – I will direct your to the words of ACLU Executive Director, Anthony D. Romero handling the case of the Obama Administration upholding Bush Admin policies of Extraordinary Rendition: “Eric Holder’s Justice Department stood up in court today and said that it would continue the Bush policy of invoking state secrets to hide the reprehensible history of torture, rendition and the most grievous human rights violations committed by the American government. This is not change. This is definitely more of the same. Candidate Obama ran on a platform that would reform the abuse of state secrets, but President Obama’s Justice Department has disappointingly reneged on that important civil liberties issue. If this is a harbinger of things to come, it will be a long and arduous road to give us back an America we can be proud of again.” Feb. 9, 2009

So – YES… Obama and his administration are continuing Bush Admin torture policies & covering up human rights violations that to the best of our knowledge still continue to this day.

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return to roost.
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Posted by: remo on Apr 17, 2009 3:52 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Torture is basic cruelty. The allowability, in this case, predicated upon the false flag of 911. Lies upon lies. Global lies. Pre-emptive lies. The death of a million plus people on the dust plains of the Arab lands.Thats no lie. Throw the 911 smoke bomb into the wasp nest, double check the full spectrum target: let loose the dog of war. Just about the whole commission report on 911 was based on torture evidence wrung from one man. KSM, who later confessed to saying anything to be rid of the torturers. That little cock rooster on the deck of mission accomplished needs his day in court.

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Obama is the best we've got
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Posted by: Rosasharn on Apr 17, 2009 5:09 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All these trolls on this sight these days make it extremely hard to see the forest. WE elected Obama with a large majority, the GOP was crushed and now we are having to deal with all the sour grapes. Obama did not create the mess we're in, it was G Dub all the way. I, for one, am standing by my new president, who I am very proud of. I believe that Obama's decision to let these mofos off the hook was done for reasons that are in the best interests of progress AWAY from the Bush nightmare. The skanks that have infiltrated Alternet are just big ole teabaggin blowhards hiding behind very skimpy masks.

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» RE: Obama is the best we've got Posted by: mercianomad

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I Take Heart From the Anti Torture Posts Here ... Now Contact Congress ...
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Posted by: mmckinl on Apr 17, 2009 5:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Congress by ZIP

Thanks again to all of you who posted about the abomination of torture. It lifts my spirits to see the outrage in your posts, because there is NO excuse for our, yes our behavior, as this was done in our name.

Please contact the Congress and the President to demand the prosecution of these heinous crimes ...

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» Now is the time Posted by: Thomas O. Anderson

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Orwell's 1984 was their textbook
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Posted by: mollywally2 on Apr 17, 2009 7:30 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. . . then sends him to Room 101, the most feared room in the Ministry of Love. Here a person's greatest fear is forced upon him or her for the final re-education step: acceptance. Winston, who has a primal fear of rats, is shown a wire cage filled with starving rats and told that it will be fitted over his head like a mask, so that when the cage door is opened, the rats will bore into his face until it is stripped to the bone.

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How can Americans
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Posted by: peskyfly1 on Apr 17, 2009 10:08 PM   
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Take any of the mother fucking shit that is happening in their fucked up country fucking seriously?

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» RE: How can Americans Posted by: mercianomad

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The pope said to Torquemada "shed no blood"
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Posted by: bitsfick on Apr 18, 2009 4:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And Torquemada tortured over 1000 to death, but shed no blood. But of course that was done in the name of god, not national security.

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Fourteenth Amendment
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Posted by: red godowar on Apr 18, 2009 11:14 AM   
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How now can almost any assault-related crime be successfully prosecuted in the US?

When our president, who is sworn to uphold and protect the Constitution, creates policy and arguments that let torturers go free, then how can anybody seriously consider prosecuting another of the same or similar charges?

Our Rule of Law is either dead, or near death.

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Aha! What did I tell you, "America?!"
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Apr 18, 2009 12:29 PM   
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Among the more than a hundred letters I wrote during the time of my own war with the "Nation of Law" in its IRS avatar, were those including proof of military and police torture. None of my letters, concerning any of the literally hundreds of crimes - including an epidemic of rape by agents of IRS - committed routinely by our government, ever received any note;

Or publicity - that despite my having forworded copies of everything sent to congressman, senators, courts, and all the media.

That citizens of this country can still believe that we are governed by a two-party, democratic political system is something concerning which historians will marvel.

One gang of hoods in the ownership and employ of the corporations (among them the military-industrial), crooks who rule as figurehead Mikados here while their owners fiscally gut the nation in the same manner they do acquired corporations, will turn on the gang whose figurehead places they have just filled?

Has anybody here read the book "Virtual Reality?" Does anybody recognize the expression and CIA code name "Operation MOCKINGBIRD?"

Here's a quick diagnostic tool for you, in case you don't recognize your reality for only virtual, or think "MOCKINGBIRD" is just a bird:
Do you believe calling drowning someone, then having him revived (doctors standing by in case you fail), in order to drown him again, then calling what you've done "waterboarding" changes the practice from torture to "intensive interrogation,' then you probably believe killing a fetus by sucking out its brains, then crushing its head is changed from murderous killing by calling the practice "abortion."

If you can call yourself "conservative" or "liberal" as you identify yourself with either of those, you are both crazy as a pet coon and - even though you live in just one of thirty-four other nations in the Americas - you are an "American."

Whew - how far out of touch with reality can you get?!

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Aha! What did I tell you, "America?!"
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Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Apr 18, 2009 12:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Among the more than a hundred letters I wrote during the time of my own war with the "Nation of Law" in its IRS avatar, were those including proof of military and police torture. None of my letters, concerning any of the literally hundreds of crimes - including an epidemic of rape by agents of IRS - committed routinely by our government, ever received any note;

Or publicity - that despite my having forworded copies of everything sent to congressman, senators, courts, and all the media.

That citizens of this country can still believe that we are governed by a two-party, democratic political system is something concerning which historians will marvel.

One gang of hoods in the ownership and employ of the corporations (among them the military-industrial), crooks who rule as figurehead Mikados here while their owners fiscally gut the nation in the same manner they do acquired corporations, will turn on the gang whose figurehead places they have just filled?

Has anybody here read the book "Virtual Reality?" Does anybody recognize the expression and CIA code name "Operation MOCKINGBIRD?"

Here's a quick diagnostic tool for you, in case you don't recognize your reality for only virtual, or think "MOCKINGBIRD" is just a bird:
Do you believe calling drowning someone, then having him revived (doctors standing by in case you fail), in order to drown him again, then calling what you've done "waterboarding" changes the practice from torture to "intensive interrogation,' then you probably believe killing a fetus by sucking out its brains, then crushing its head is changed from murderous killing by calling the practice "abortion."

If you can call yourself "conservative" or "liberal" as you identify yourself with either of those, you are both crazy as a pet coon and - even though you live in just one of thirty-four other nations in the Americas - you are an "American."

Whew - how far out of touch with reality can you get?!

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Americans should be ashamed
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Posted by: imaskeptic on Apr 18, 2009 2:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a country! What a disgrace!

Any American who thinks they live in a country that is at the forefront of civilisation is mindless and deserving of the contempt that they are increasingly subjected to by the rest of the world.

You people bleat on about "the land of the free" and all the platitudes and rhetoric that go along with that ridiculous notion. You're so patriotic and nationalistic. You're convinced you live in a democracy. Ha, idiots. You are governed by crooks who create most of your problems with a culture of corporate greed and oppressive foreign policies.

And now you have Obama saying those who participated in this "torture" business will be immune from prosecution because they were following orders! Remember the Nuremberg trials where the US refused to accept that defense from the Nazi's? Fucking hypocrites.

You are increasingly a nation of fat, lazy, dumb lemmings whose only domestic function is that of "consumer" as you waddle from one fast food joint to the next singing about "freedom" when you're not sitting in front of the idiot box watching infomercials and eating frozen tv dinners. The late George Carlin had you people summed up perfectly. Now HE was a switched on American. A rare thing. Someone should nuke you fuckers off the map. But no matter, you'll self destruct soon enough.

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Sadistic Behavior.
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Posted by: melpol on Apr 19, 2009 2:26 PM   
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Interrogators are kind because they get their information in less than a day. But those that punish their prisoners for weeks and months are the real villains. Their only purpose is to feel the obscene thrill that comes from inflicting pain. They should be made to pay for their sadistic behavior.

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Hold Bush Accountable Music Video on youtube
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Posted by: odette7 on Apr 19, 2009 6:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we don’t really go through what happened, the poison Bush (and his administration) injected into the fabric of the country and the world will never be fully brought to light. We can't just move on and get caught up in the sense of relief. Bush may be out of office, but what he's done will have ramifications quite possibly for ever.

I would appreciate if you could share this music video to hold Bush accountable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWxhl3ysEHg
Thank you very much,
Odette Springer

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Hold Bush Accountable music Video on youtube
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Posted by: odette7 on Apr 19, 2009 6:24 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we don’t really go through what happened, the poison Bush (and his administration) injected into the fabric of the country and the world will never be fully brought to light. We can't just move on and get caught up in the sense of relief. Bush may be out of office, but what he's done will have ramifications quite possibly for ever.

I would appreciate if you could share this music video to hold Bush accountable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWxhl3ysEHg
Thank you very much,
Odette Springer

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Please share this music video to hold Bush accountable
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Posted by: odette7 on Apr 19, 2009 6:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we don’t really go through what happened, the poison Bush (and his administration) injected into the fabric of the country and the world will never be fully brought to light. We can't just move on and get caught up in the sense of relief. Bush may be out of office, but what he's done will have ramifications quite possibly for ever.

I would appreciate if you could share this music video to hold these criminals accountable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWxhl3ysEHg
Thank you very much,
Odette Springer

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HOLD BUSH ACCOUNTABLE MUSIC VIDEO
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Posted by: odette7 on Apr 19, 2009 6:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree completely.
If we don’t really go through what happened, the poison Bush (and his administration) injected into the fabric of the country and the world will never be fully brought to light. We can't just move on and get caught up in the sense of relief. Bush may be out of office, but what he's done will have ramifications quite possibly for ever.

I would appreciate if you could share this music video on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWxhl3ysEHg
Thank you very much,
Odette Springer

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MUSIC VIDEO ON YOUTUBE TO HOLD BUSH ACCOUNTABLE
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Posted by: odette7 on Apr 19, 2009 6:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree completely.
If we don’t really go through what happened, the poison Bush (and his administration) injected into the fabric of the country and the world will never be fully brought to light. We can't just move on and get caught up in the sense of relief. Bush may be out of office, but what he's done will have ramifications quite possibly for ever.

I would appreciate it if you could share this music video on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWxhl3ysEHg
Thank you very much,
Odette Springer

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just give them sodium pentathol and skip the torture
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Posted by: cathairinmyfood on Apr 19, 2009 6:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all this torture stuff is just the playground of a sadist. the value of information held by a prisoner has a very short shelf-life, maybe only 24-48 hours. That's about it. Why all this torture when you can just give the prisioner sodium pentathol? Seriously, the Bush Administration was run and staffed by sadists. These sadist not only need to be purged from all branches of government, they need to be held accountable for torture and all other crimes, locked up and kept behind bars forever.

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Citizen Lopez
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Posted by: yodyos on Apr 20, 2009 11:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama has proven how correct the truism is, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." How soon, almost immediately, he forgot all of his election- effort speeches about 'change'. His passion for change was thrown to the political winds as he was quickly seduced by the royal elegance of the White House and the magnificense of his special fleet of airplanes. No mention of an effective and honorable discourse to end the Jewish occupation of Palestine. No morally correct action to act legally against those adults who should have had the moral backbone to not commit atorcities repugnant to the US Constitution that they all swore to defend and protect. As the Chinese saying goes, "deeds are your purest prayer." Again the American public has been led down the rosy path to suffering and shame by an accomplished self-deluding politician. The protection of the corporate Lords also lead one to think that we the American citizens do not have a prayer of a chnace.

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Citizen Lopez
[Report this comment]
Posted by: yodyos on Apr 20, 2009 11:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama has proven how correct the truism is, "power corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." How soon, almost immediately, he forgot all of his election- effort speeches about 'change'. His passion for change was thrown to the political winds as he was quickly seduced by the royal elegance of the White House and the magnificense of his special fleet of airplanes. No mention of an effective and honorable discourse to end the Jewish occupation of Palestine. No morally correct action to act legally against those adults who should have had the moral backbone to not commit atorcities repugnant to the US Constitution that they all swore to defend and protect. As the Chinese saying goes, "deeds are your purest prayer." Again the American public has been led down the rosy path to suffering and shame by an accomplished self-deluding politician. The protection of the corporate Lords also lead one to think that we the American citizens do not have a prayer of a chance.

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New Bush Torture Bombshell Memos
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Posted by: godgift88 on Apr 21, 2009 5:15 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a time for reflection, not retribution. ... We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history. But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past.


-----------
godgift
---------------
California Drug Treatment Centers-California Drug Treatment Centers

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OBAMA: Kook or Kook Puppet?
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Posted by: reelman on Apr 22, 2009 7:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remember last summer when you heard rumblings about kook “hate America folks” wanting Bush-Cheney on trial? Remember when you thought how dumb that was after preventing another 9-11 for 7 years? Remember when you thought Obama was “not that radical”?

Well, as I have posted a few times before, Obama is a radical secular socialist reared as such who surrounded himself by choice with same. He is a true believer that we can be a larger Cuba, that we can be the first successful competitive secular socialist country…if we just follow him, Reid and Pelosi to that fantasyland. The land where the top powerful few have none of the burdens and all of the life they had before but you and I don’t…that land. The land where America is the shameful evil cause of the world’s problems while communists have a model culture with great education and medical systems. That land. Are you “connecting the dots” now or still in denial?

Obama is a smiling sneak who acts as a sort of front man like the car sales manager who approves ALL sales but can hide or smile at you as needed. Remember when Klinton told us “to ask Janet Reno about Waco”? Did that tell you anything about Obama’s ploy to “let the AG decide on prosecutions for interrogation techniques”? Are you “connecting the dots” now or still in denial?

Now imagine if any previous President spent so much time trashing the man he replaced? Apologizing for America and taking verbal abuse with a smile from vicious dictators in the same room. Are you “connecting the dots” now or still in denial?

Reagan could have had a field day with Jimmah (aka Misery Index) Carter. Did he? No. Class and common sense are not part of the modern democrat persona. They are angry unhappy hateful unethical political street thugs…sort of a socialist mafia. Now its to remove the one historical achievement of GWB, to soil it, to make it a sin to have waterboarded ta few of the top beheaders to prevent future attacks. Its what the socialist mafia does.

To anyone who thinks Obama is not a radical (clueless) secular socialist…sit down and shut up…the jury has already rendered its decision.

http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish/

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9-11 for 8 years
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Posted by: adonisna on Apr 23, 2009 1:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I won't forget that forever.
FLV Converter for Win/Mac,

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LIBERAL TORTURED MEMORIES
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Posted by: reelman on Apr 23, 2009 6:01 PM   
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Only the fantasyland dufus media liberal (secular socialist) could be so blind to history and reality. The cult of allah terrorists behead innocents for the camera while the lib-media cry about waterboarding a few top thugs that would kill millions if they had their wish.

This is the same lib-media crowd that stood by while innocent children burned to death at Waco and serial gifted liar Klinton claimed Reno made all those decisions. Where was the lib-media rage then? Why did both Klinton and Reno “get a pass”?

This is all hate-Bush/Cheneyites to find a way to soil the 7 years of protection from another attack. Modern liberalism is a mental disorder as Michael Savage said years ago. Now we know what he meant…and there is lots more of this hateful distractive baloney coming to mask the gov-meant grabs ALL approved by Obama.

The Obama administration has a DHS gal that is so ignorant she says the Canadian border allowed 9-11 hijackers to get here. How do you top that?

Liberals just shock you over and over so you soon realize there are no ethical or moral or political boundaries. None.
Crazy is like like. Mark it now and mark it well. It has only begun.

http://conservablogs.com/theconservativecrawfish

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Torture ---> Put the Perpetrators on TRIAL
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Posted by: A. Z. Arrow on Apr 25, 2009 11:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
>>>>

A toothless "Truth Commission" insures a cover-up and future occurrences of these sicko activities.

Torture is a national disgrace, it is also illegal: The “Nuremberg defense” will not do -"I was only following orders." Well, who gave these orders? Who authorized the use of torture? The law requires that those who colluded with these crimes be investigate, charged, brought to trail, and, if found guilty, sentenced --CIA operatives, private contractors, and Bush administration officials included. There is no debate on this. Torture is a violation of the Geneva Convention that the United States Government initiated, help draft, and signed, along with other nations, on the dotted line. The US has imposed compliance with Geneva in its' treaties and military alliances with other nations. Further, United States law makes it obligatory that Eric Holder bring charges against those responsible for the crime of torture. If Holder and/or Obama do not comply with these laws then they are engaged in a cover-up.

We are better than Israeli's and other violators of human rights

A.Z. Arrow >Citizen of Vermont
4/25/09
----------------------------->

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Trying to be inhumane without leaving marks
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Posted by: GPFrank on Apr 25, 2009 7:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I express my opinion: I did not hear it from the horse mouth or other end: But the whole thing has been Cheney's idea of counter terrorism.
So I ask myself the question, why did they not use the splinters under fingernails and electric shocks as in Argentina, Chile, Romania and Hungary? Answer; these are screamers, designed for other inmates to hear. But when there are outsiders the evidence would not be very cool for the perpetrators. Rather, the Guantanomo methods stifle the ability of the victim to shout out. Perhaps some of our elite forces were trained in the methods but were allowed to shout. I doubt that
they were hit hard enough so they could not emit voice. On the other hand there had to be
forms of remission so that they were physically able to answer the questions, "Nicht Wahr?" as they said in Himmler's chambers. Otherwise the whole thing would be a complete farce. At that, I do not believe they were looking for intelligence but for propaganda, to get them to say such things as
Al Quaida linked to Saddam.
Put that in your pipe, Mr. AJR.

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Present/former Attorneys of DOJ Collusion with Judges of the Judicial Branch to Use Cronyism
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Posted by: IsidoroRDL on Apr 26, 2009 7:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Regarding the above referenced issue, I write as a Nam Vet, a former White House appointee in both the Carter and Reagan Administrations, and as an independent federal civil litigation practitioner for the past three decades, to underscore that history has shown that Democracies such as ours are precarious institutions. Therefore, constant vigilance must be maintained to preserve our Constitution from undue government encroachment by the use of legal sophistry of lawyers and judges intentionally acting to circumvent the limitations on the powers granted the government by “the people” in the Constitution and the Rule of Law.

For this reason we must make certain that as a Nation faced with the threat of terrorism, we do not transform ourselves into legal tyrannies by permitting the legal profession to utilize cronyism to immunize government employees and judges from accountability for negligent, or criminal acts outside of their scope of authority, judicial capacity, or jurisdiction. As Thomas Jefferson stated more than 200 years ago,

"[t]he germ of destruction of our nation is in the power of the judiciary, an irresponsible body - working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall render powerless the checks of one branch over the other and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."

In this context, we must always recall the sorry behavior of German judges and lawyers use of cronyism during Nazi era which did play an important part in allowing Hitler to power, because, “[l]egal scholars are still perplexed to explain how a highly developed and sophisticated legal system – German law and jurisprudence under the Weimar Republic – became so readily corrupted and how legal actors – German judges and other judicial officials, lawyers, and law professors – could so easily become willing accomplices in this process. The sad fact is that legal sophistication did not inoculate German law and German legal actors from actively participating in the perverse changes being made to the German legal system during the Nazi era, including the legal exclusion of German Jews from the concept of “citizen,” and the Nuremberg Race Laws, which gradually transformed the non-citizen Jew into a subhuman not worthy of life. By the time the gas vans came and the human slaughter factories were built in Auschwitz and the other death camps, the murder of the six million Jews and other persecuted minorities was done completely within the framework of German law.” Professor Michael Bazyler, The Legacy of the Holocaust and Lessons for Today: Research for a New Textbook Holocaust, Genocide, and the Law, Yad Vshem The Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes Remembrance Authority, 2004. (Emphasis added).

The evidence confirms that in reality the issue of immunity for “torture,” is a subpart of the larger issue of the on gong criminal conspiracy of present and former attorneys in DOJ and judges in the Judicial Branch to intentionally violate Congress’ delegations under the Rules Enabling Act and the Judicial Conference Act to deny access to an impartial court. Consequently, the evidence confirms the use of cronyism to surreally assert immunity for past and present acts tortious and criminal acts in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 241, 242, 1204, and 1523, by government attorneys and judges to cover-up and deny me access to an impartial jury trial under RICO for the criminal obstruction of my statutory rights as a father and retaliation by issuing and enforcing a void order to deprive me of my right of employment as an independent federal sole practitioner(see 2005 Petition:http://www.liamsdad.org/others/isidoro.shtml).

Isidoro Rodriguez, Esq.

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The US: Rogue Superpower
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Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 17, 2009 1:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Drugs possession violators harm only themselves, common criminals harm one person or a small number of people, but war criminals harm the nation. Not only are their actions manifestly unlawful and ethically repulsive, but military and intelligence sources admit that they are a recruiting boon to terrorists and have done nothing at all to enhance our security. Our allies are dismayed and wary of cooperating with us, and anti-Americanism is on the rise worldwide.

Obama's Nixonian justification that it's all right to commit egregious crimes if the president ordered it is disgusting, not to say fascist. Surely these well educated goons knew that slamming heads into walls, binding people in positions calculated to damage nerves and joints, disappearing people and, in dozens of cases torturing them to death, was a crime.

There is thus no accountability, no deterrent to future atrocities, no acknowledgment of the suffering, humanity and rights of the victims, no signal to our friends and enemies that we care about human rights.

The US should immediately quit its effort to obtain a UN Human Rights seat, stop publishing human rights reports and speaking out about other nations' atrocities, and sit in the rogues' gallery in ignominious silence with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and, yes, Israel.

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» RE: The US: Rogue Superpower Posted by: CRaPWHiSPeReR
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Sadly
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Posted by: Schnookums on Apr 17, 2009 1:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sadly Obama is unlikely to truly investigate these and other charges because doing so may reveal that many recent presidents have authorized similar treatment. Our country changed a long time ago...we are just now finally catching on. Upon close inspection, the difference between Democrats and Republicans is small indeed...

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» RE: Sadly Posted by: Javan
» RE: Sadly Posted by: odette7

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As long as those ultimately responsible are punnished.
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Posted by: cordas on Apr 17, 2009 1:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I must admit I admire Obama's stance on issuing these emails without blacking out everything that makes them important. I also admire his statements regarding protecting the security services.

I just hope that the door he has cunningly left open by not defending those who created and "justified" these programs is kicked wide open and those truely responsible are punished!

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Not Surprised, Still Incensed
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Posted by: cocozane on Apr 17, 2009 1:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't say that reading the story surprised me at all, but it still angered and disgusted me; the fact that no one will be prosecuted makes releasing the memos just an exercise in PR. I did not expect the Obama administration to slap the people involved in the torture apparatus really hard, but I did expect some sanctions, a tangible act of punishment, not just words such as "they were following orders." People need to know that when they follow criminal orders, they become accomplices, and everybody will pay, according to rank and responsibility.

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» RE: Not Surprised, Still Incensed Posted by: Johanna Moren

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Behind the scenes
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Posted by: phead0 on Apr 17, 2009 2:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your phrase >Obama's Nixonian justification that it's all right to commit egregious crimes if the president ordered it is disgusting, not to say fascist.< is most apt as Obama is a bought politician to carry out a big PR coup where the American public are concered - what does Obama get out of it? well,ironically hes the first "black" president of the US and then there are lots side benefits, like he gets paid a small fortune, travels and wines and dines and has access to many opportunities that millions of his black companions will never have - Woody Allen summed it up with "grab the money and run".

But the word facist is the key element here and so being a black facist when the offer is good should not be sneered at - if any good comes, it will of course only be superficial - words that sound like a change designed to create a mental change in the listener but no visible change on the ground.

America is in the hands of a worldwide facist mafia and until the total american people repulse it then it will continue to grow with zionist intrigue to boot.

Dont expect anything from Obama that needs changing cos the forces are there to steer the situation the way they want it. A show of solidarity by the population could well be a long hard general strike.

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So big deal. It's not as if that sissy's gonna prosecute the Bush motherfuckers anyway.
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Posted by: Sports Warrior Casey Jones on Apr 17, 2009 2:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead, it'll just be more big government. When will you liberal sissies fight to abolish the CIA? Or do you have those silly nightmares about the CIA potentially harming Obama if you lift a finger and try? LOL !

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Sick stuff, sick people
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Posted by: mercianomad on Apr 17, 2009 2:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm simply amazed every time, even at my advanced age, that there are people in the world who would do these things to other people, much less think them up. It is a genuine pathology that exists within an institution paid for by the citizenry.

Grade school bullies, sadists, schadenfreude freaks, and people who actually enjoy this stuff - they are all backwards and outdated (but unfortunately abundant) species on the social evolution ladder. So is anyone who tells anyone else to kill, and anyone who does so just because they've been told to. Violence is truly disgusting stuff, whether on ideological grounds or as punishment or as means of acquisition/theft.

I am gentle. So should be the world.

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» RE: Sick stuff, sick people Posted by: mnstra

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Sooner or later
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Posted by: Perry Logan on Apr 17, 2009 2:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is there any boubt this is what the Republicans had planned for all of us?

We should always keep in mind the Right intend to destroy us. We will have to fight them sooner or later.

Right Will Eat Itself

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» Dismantle AIPAC Posted by: weathered

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he has unscrupulous bosses (the real controlers)
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Posted by: patfr on Apr 17, 2009 2:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think Obama is doing a fine job,but you need to realize he is controlled to some degree by forces that don't give a rats ass about you,or the nations welfare.
You can plainly see that through the internet, we've came a long way towards bringing the truth out,and exposing corruption,(some even in prison),but we must not let them get away with overlooking the inhumane evils of this past administration.With enough pressure from us they will be forced bring these people to justice.
Don't let up, keep contacting senators,reps, and,other gov officials.All of their email addresses,and phone numbers are available. If we let this go it will only get worse. They have GOT TO BE brought to justice

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how long?
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Posted by: johnwinthrop on Apr 17, 2009 2:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the bush crowd could have been available for indictment, at least those who haven't or aren't about to flee to Paraguay. Apologies to Paraguay if it is no longer a sanctuary for Mengele look alikes. The US is the new Paraguay.

but is there a bigger Shoe to Drop? Did these methods like rendition and waterboarding just appear out of thin air as the al Queda jets exploded over lower Manhattan?

I believe, without hard proof, that the CIA and perhaps elements of the military have tortured alleged enemies of the US for years. We know it happened in Vietnam. And then What? Hard questioning replaced beatings and sticking prisoners in heatboxes?

What happened to Serb prisoners in Clinton's Crusade in Yugoslavia? Iraqi and Palestinian prisoners in wars in the Gulf and in Palestine where CIA and Mossad work very closely?

Does anyone know? Things don't just "start" and "expertise" just acquired.

Since Obama and Holder aren't prosecuting, perhaps the current torturers could tell a congressional investigative team,even with immunity. No one is going to jail; O has a nice truce with the Military and Leon Panetta is a master fixer, so CIA will accept Obama for now.

Nevertheless, Obama should be careful. He might want to watch Stone's "JFK" one evening at the White House.

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For Starters, Impeach Judge Bybee
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Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 17, 2009 3:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Several of these little legal jewels were authored by Federal Judge Jay Bybee. Surely the Judiciary Committee should begin the impeachment process rather than allow so unethical, thuggish, professionally incompetent and blatantly sadistic a sociopath to remain on the bench.

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Hypocrites
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Posted by: D_Gold on Apr 17, 2009 4:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Allies changed military law in 1944 so we could prosecute SS and Gestapo men who were 'only obeying orders'. Prior to that time it was a solid defence for soldiers, including those launching gas attacks in WWI. Why are we now letting torturers go free? - The Nazis were also addressing a 'security' problem...

No prosecutions now gives the green light to repressive regimes everywhere, and makes it that much harder for moral employees to resist illegal orders.

Prosecute those who gave the orders and those who carried them out. Not forgetting us Brits and the so-called 'stress positions' in Northern Ireland.

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» You made my point for me Posted by: red godowar

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Threat of Prosecution as counterproductive as Torture
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Apr 17, 2009 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do 'Whistleblowing' protection cover Torture? I'm guessing not.
Although the acts committed are deplorable, seeking to prosecute the 'grunts' who carried them out is of little use.No Doubt, The CIA has been a agency which has operated outside the laws and good conscience of this country for decades,but going after the 'small fish' will not assure their mode of operations will never be tainted again with such barbaric methods- Ya gotta get the Big Fish.
If faced with the potential of prosecution - how many of these operatives do you think would speak freely about what they did, what they'd seen and who had given the orders? Not a one.Reason we have what's called the Miranda Rights- the right to remain silent to avoid incriminating yourself in illegal activities.
Granted some will take this undeserved 'Get out of Jail Free'Card and feel vindicated or at least exonerated.But others will see this as a Way to confess their sins and the Obama Admin and the Congress should be right there to hear them.
With the threat of looming prosecution these small fish will be battening down the hatches Which is the opposite of what we need to gather concrete evidence against the High Ranking Bush Officials.We need Some to 'Testify, Brother!'We may find there is far more to uncover than those Legal Brief encompass- Like Cheney's Assassination Squad. What did they not get a legal brief on in hopes it would cover their asses? Could there been some involvement with Bhoutos assassination- Other High Ranking Foreign Figures?
We need these lower ranks to begin falling like dominos to see just how far these crimes go. We may find those Torture memos are the least of the High Crimes.
In fact I would be willing to give Amnesty to anyone who brings US Cheney,Rummy & Wolfie on a Silver Platter, Including that arrogant Dumbass W.These Three have about 4 decades of High Crimes to be addressed.W's Admin was not the first time these Three betrayed US. In fact their actions have led to the Catastrophic situation we are in Now. CR&W have been the Reigning kings of the MIC since Nixon/Ford.Although they were interchangeable essentially, Cheney- Oil Industry, Rummy- Military and Wolfie- finance .
Give US them and the rest can be thankful that 'Hail Mary's Full of grace'

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Mark
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Posted by: mdbirdsall on Apr 17, 2009 4:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who went through the military's SERE school (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) during the Vietnam era will be familiar with:
1. Slamming into the double wall
2. Waterboarding
3. The little box

These were used as examples of the techniques / torture which the enemy (vietcong) used on US personnel.

Now we use them?

Pogo got it right: We have met the enemy, and he is us.

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» RE: Mark Posted by: jrmart

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I don't see anything inhumane?
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Posted by: shiftjammer on Apr 17, 2009 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You read those 10 reasonable techniques. And I don't see a problem. Where's the torture? There getting 3 meals a day. They get to stay up 4 to 5 days in a row. So they can watch American Idol. And the CIA gives them frequent bathes. Sounds like club Med to me. I was prepared to read some hideous stuff. Those techniques are childs play. A real man can handle all of those and still have time to hit the Olive Garden for there all you can eat salads. Before closing time!!

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» RE: I don't see anything inhumane? Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I don't see anything inhumane? Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney

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'repukes'
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Posted by: Bushmaster on Apr 17, 2009 4:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is pretty gruesome, inhumane crap. Perhaps the revealing of it in this way, will enable the public to view it without the side show of plausible 'repuke' denials to muddy the waters or reason and compassion.

There may be a trial in a world court.

What I hope is that Obama moves wisely and is successful in resolving the mess the 'repukes' left behind. I know if those 'repukes' were landlords renting to college students who trashed the place before they left they'd be pissed.

However it is you 'we the people' who are the landlords in this economic 'trashing' we have every right to be pissed.

'repuke' definition: Politician. One who makes and passes legislation. One who is influenced by insincere motives and joins with a few to harm the many.

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1984
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Posted by: taxidriver on Apr 17, 2009 5:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Caged insects? Doesn't this sound like the caged rats in "1984"?

If only we could get the terrorist suspects to say, "I love Big Brother (George W.)"

This is Orwellian, pure and simple.

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» You can thank Israel for Posted by: weathered
» RE: You can thank Israel for Posted by: moyshekapoyre
» RE: You can thank Israel for Posted by: weathered
» RE: 1984 Posted by: Quannah

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Obama Complicit in Bush Crimes
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Posted by: Jeffrey Levy on Apr 17, 2009 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The President is required by law to uphold the constitution, and is therefore required to prosecute officials who conceived, designed and implemented torture.

By making these officials immune to prosecution, Mr. Obama renders himself complicit in the Bush-era crimes.

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Before Israel, Islam was of little concern to America
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Posted by: weathered on Apr 17, 2009 6:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
now look what we've got? Enough material for MSM/NPR/PBS to keep the public tethered to a very dark, diabolic agenda - its sick.

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Down with Obama
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Apr 17, 2009 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While it is certainly preferable to start prosecutions at the very top, that's not what Obama is doing. Obama is very deliberately prosecuting nobody, and he's not getting ready to prosecute somebody, either. War criminals and white collar criminals get a free pass from the Obama Adminstration simply because Obama is trying to help them get away with their crimes. He is trying to legitimize those crimes so that such criminals never have to face even the shadow of prosucution in the future. He is gutting the rule of law, which is the basis for the constitutional order. He is following in Bush's footsteps. He is an accessory after the fact to every obviously criminal act that he deliberately refuses to prosecute. Obama is a war criminal, a fraud, a liar, a thief, a traitor, a coward, and an oathbreaker. He should be removed from office, prosecuted, and executed.

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NEW WORD: OBAMANATE
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Posted by: Triton on Apr 17, 2009 6:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To obamanate is when it is expedient to ignore crimes such as torture for political gain. When Mr. Bush left the White House many of us had hopes that his replacement would open the windows and let the stench out of the Oval Office. Obama"s unwillingness to probe the vile and criminal behavior of the leader of this exercise in brutality and his henchmen is yet another reason we should be concerned about the future of the United States.

AS I recall, transparency was one of the novel features Obama would bring to Washington. This action is a clear example of just what his idea of transparency means. It is no more than the furtive behavior of a political weasel.

It is depressing to see that we have elected a president who is devoid of grace and appears to be little if any improvement over the village idiot from Texas.

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» RE: NEW WORD: OBAMANATE Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: NEW WORD: OBAMANATE Posted by: cmaciain

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Action Required - by YOU
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Posted by: Fishbone Soldier on Apr 17, 2009 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is clear by Obama's statement that he is not interested in holding those who made these decisions accountable. Our country tortured, maimed and murdered the suspected (meaning, the innocent and possibly guilty). This happened. It was planned and approved. It is sadistic, the kind of stuff that people who've watched too many horror movies think is a good idea. And it was done in our name.

Those responsible for these decisions MUST be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. We must overcome the right-wing media bias to make sure that this happens. Not out of vengeance. Not really even out of justice. But to prove that America is more important than the psychopaths who were in charge. If we do not hold them accountable, it does two things. 1) It says to the world that we truly don't give a fuck about this. That it's not important to us, and that we have no problem with it because it's in the past. Think about what that means for our moral standing. Think about what it means for America's future. 2) It says to any potential elected official that they can do whatever they want and get away with it. How many Bush people came from Nixon's staff? Rumsfeld. Cheney. Wolfowitz. They never paid the price for previous crimes and took things farther. What's next? A preemptive war in the Middle East, just for the hell of it? Oh wait. Unlawful murder of innocent people? Oh wait. Seriously, I don't know what's next, but something must be done. We're talking about our nation's future.

Obama's not going to prosecute without a massive groundswell of support. It's too politically risky. We must make him do something. So now we all must take action. Write to the editorial board of every paper you read. Make one letter and copy and paste if you have to. Write your representatives in congress. Send that letter every day. Rant and rave if you want. Write something coherent. Write something crazy. Just write something. And make your friends do it, too. The media must be overwhelmed to the point where they finally get on the people's side. Please, do it now. Write three sentences. Prosecution is required for the sake of our nation.

Many have said, "Never again", implying that they will not stand for the rounding up, torture, and murder of innocent people. This is precisely what happened. It is too late to say "never again" in this situation. But there's something we can do about it in for future. Never again.

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» Dismantle AIPAC Posted by: weathered

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Wow
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Posted by: JTMixer5 on Apr 17, 2009 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems pretty legit to me, also would appear the detainees health is kept in mind here. But, I bet the CIA takes it FAR beyond how its spelled out on that paper.

RT
Privacy Center

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» RE: Detainee's health? Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: If you're Cheney's maid ... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: If you're Cheney's maid ... Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: If you're Cheney's maid ... Posted by: Cybershaman

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This is torture? Don't make me laugh.
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Posted by: AJR Journal on Apr 17, 2009 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Harmless insect in a box? Ouch!
Sleep deprivation? How can they stand it?
Flicking cold water on them? That is tough.
Bland (yet nutritious) diet? Brutal.

I don't know how prisoners stand it. I would crack in a second.

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» RE: Your sarcasm isn't funny Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» That is not torture! Get serious. Posted by: AJR Journal
» RE: Silliness ... Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: mercianomad
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Stinks ... Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Does this make you laugh? Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» This stuff is not torture! Posted by: AJR Journal
» Torture is knowing over 3000 Posted by: weathered
» AJR Journal Posted by: weathered
» Tell your Mom I said "Hi" Posted by: AJR Journal
» RE: This stuff is not torture! Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: Stop lying to yourself Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: Stop lying to yourself Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Stop lying to yourself Posted by: Quannah
» OK, at least you kinda defined it Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» RE: OK, at least you kinda defined it Posted by: Fishbone Soldier
» Name-calling is a very bad habit. Posted by: AJR Journal
» RE: Name-calling is a very bad habit. Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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The Bush/Cheney Regime Defiled our American Flag...
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Posted by: JohnTruth2001 on Apr 17, 2009 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
with the blood of torture victims! Furthermore, many of these men/women could well been innocent goat herders framed to get the bounties & rewards, for all we know!

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Mccain or Obama, this proves that it would have been all the same.
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Posted by: JenniferBedingfield on Apr 17, 2009 8:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok, fire away ...

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It's now Obama's torture
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Posted by: Thomas O. Anderson on Apr 17, 2009 8:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just as Obama took ownership of Bush's wars with their expansion, his refusal to prosecute torture makes him complicit in supreme world crimes.

Barack Obama, the warmonger who rode to DC on a "peace train," is no longer a simple fraud.... He's a threat to America's soul.

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» RE: It's now Obama's torture Posted by: weathered
» Obama never promised to not take ownership. Posted by: JenniferBedingfield

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Fascists torture.
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Posted by: folkie on Apr 17, 2009 8:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And they don't care who does the torturing or who is tortured, because they think torture is fun--read the comments after this video:

Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches

Fascists just want to kill people and blow stuff up. Yesterday at the mall I walked past a very pleasant looking young man talking to another dude who had apparently just asked him what he did. He answered, "I blow sh*t up."

That's a career and he's proud of it. We used to be proud of building things and making things. Now we just blow sh*t up and f*ck people up. On my way to the organic garden at the community college I pass a building that is labeled, "Military Education." Blowing sh*t up and f*cking people up are respectable career choices. One nearby college has a deal with a private mercenary company where the college uses the merc's shooting range and the mercs use the college meeting rooms.

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» RE: Fascists torture people Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Krishna - Shiva Posted by: Cybershaman

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Shielding criminals and their crimes is a crime
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Posted by: adelaney on Apr 17, 2009 9:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the big O does not prosecute these disgusting torturers who committed heinous crimes, then he is a collaborator in that crime and should be prosecuted too...

Sorry O there should be no clemency for this treasonous torture!!!

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A day in the life of teaching
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Posted by: maddy on Apr 17, 2009 9:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A relevant anecdote:

I once taught a college course about US war propaganda during WWII. The central question of the course was how the US State Dept and the media tried to manage various domestic social tensions in the US in their myriad efforts to keep the populace united in the war effort.

So, obviously, Japanese Internment was on the syllabus. The students saw photos, read a memoir, and examined the US's legal and public justifications for stripping more than 100,000 American citizens of their rights and, let's not forget, their property.

We also watched a documentary film--and this is important--that's central theme was that the Japanese adults who were interred suffered years of humiliation both during and afterward, so much so that future generations had to navigate around and break through a collective silence about it.

The memoir described daily life in the camp. They had, yes, 3 meals a day and "modest" rooms. They built water gardens, created their own political leadership structures, schools for the children, adult fraternal organizations, and so on. In short, they demonstrated resilence as they tried to create more normal daily lives. The reason they were there, in other words, became a kind of ominous backdrop that most tried not to acknowledge in an attempt to endure.

Several students kept saying "Oh it wasn't so bad," "It wasn't so bad," because they weren't physically harmed, or starved, or killed. Ya know, compared to, say, the Holocaust.

I repeatedly used this one anecdote to get them to consider the logic of their dismissal: When the women first arrived and were frog marched to the toilets, they discovered a large empty room filled with toilets and no physical barriers between any of them. One modest woman in the face of it reacted in utter horror. An elderly woman saw her and lent her a large piece of cardboard so that the woman could try to get some kind of privacy. On the one hand, it's a story of compassion and resilience, but multiply that indignity by the hundreds when you consider how many years they remained there. It saddened me that I had to point this out many many times: dignity matters.

So, can you imagine how many contemporary Americans--you can see them on this message board already--will point to the closing passages of these memos to say "It wasn't so bad?, "It wasn't so bad."" They didn't inflict severe physical injury and they didn't kill anyone. So, really, what's the big deal you bunch of liberal pussies???

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» You would make an excellent mentor for Obama. Posted by: JenniferBedingfield

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Stun Guns are torture too, but none of that counts, Daily!
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Posted by: common intelligence on Apr 17, 2009 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fellow Real Americans
Our country is lost and is referred to in name only.

After Natzi Germany Fascists were put to death for crimes against humanity the United States MIC embraced the same path. Eisenhower (R) knew it, Kennedy('s)(D)knew it, Carter knew it, ...The whole congress knows it.

Democrats ans well as Republicans are complicent in torture. But more so Understand this. The CIA, Federal Reserve, FBI, as well as most are "law" enforcement institutions are an organized bunch of sheeple thugs. Those that even enroll in the military voluntarily are complicent in there engagement because they are STUPID SHEEP.

Most believe they can make a difference inside but come to find out they must only "follow orders" to protect them from being "Accountable".

Murdering stupid trigger happy cops all get off the hook of accountability. KNow that in the word of small business the responsibility and accountability is from the top down. But when it come to "big" business in the corpoRAT model Responsibility has been transposed to finding the "one" at the bottom of the pile. The Top of the food chain is protected.

ROOTED in the United States system of oligarchy is protection from Accountability for those that keep the illusion and lies going. Whistle blowers will be stopped in their tracks and they will be the end of the "link", the scapegoats.

The lowest people on the food chain, their wants, wishes understanding and wisdom and know of truth are irrelavent and will now be considered. Sister-Lauren has it pegged. The CIA is the controlling monster. They, with the manipulators of financial manipulators will be the over powering forces of the next hundred years.

Even if we "feel" we are making any head way to bring the truth in line with the system, confusing the issues is there game. The end game is this oligarchy is set in their belief only they have the intellectual capacity to direct the fate of mankind. Any opposition , well they can wait it out, because the media keeps everyone moving as 6 second image bits, never letting people get a constant stream of thought to one foundational point.

This is why every single person should stick with one concern, 911. It is the king pin to the link in this chain that we can prove.
(But then again, watch for the switch. T"they" are very good at redirecting the issues. The next switch is WAR. When "they" see the people are getting too focused they pull the FEAR CARD out. It works every time.

Good luck to all of you for trying to get results. But as Yoda says, "There is no try. DO or Not Do.

The only tool they really know the power of is to "divide and conquer". This is where the "people" are weak. We are unorganized and have no true leadership. We have no continuity in a war plan to over come this oligarchy.

So now you all have to ask yourselves. How can we truly unite in one force to challenge the whole system. Working through the COngressional channels is a waste of time.
I beleive we need a "New Continental Congress" Organized by the people. And we need our own CIA to guard it from infil-traitors of the corrupt CIA.

Lets have some real dialog on Challenging the system to the foundation of corruption or...

...just face the alternat-ive truth. "we are f*cked".

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» You are right Posted by: red godowar

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Do this for 13 weeks
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Posted by: SeattlePackedSnowandCollidedCars on Apr 17, 2009 9:48 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you will be a United States Marine

then again they have better food

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» RE: Do this for 13 weeks Posted by: JenniferBedingfield

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These horrifying things
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Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Apr 17, 2009 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
will be escalated when visited on our own troops when they are captured in wars. That, unfortunately, is the real meaning of karma. It isn't necessarily those who have done these things who will end up on the receiving end.

I can understand it if Obama wants to shield the people who acted under orders, but I want Bush and Cheney prosecuted. Rumsfeld too. These monsters have ruined our country.

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» RE: These horrifying things Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: These horrifying things Posted by: JenniferBedingfield
» RE: These horrifying things Posted by: mjglow

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Again, 'show me who you walk with
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Posted by: weathered on Apr 17, 2009 10:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and I'll tell youi what you are...'

Please free US from Israel, its made America very sick!
Still stuck in denial, just look around? Enjoy

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» RE: Please free US from Israel Posted by: Sister_Lauren

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DEMS SEEK TO FORCE USA UNDER UN SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT--part A
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Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 17, 2009 10:24 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
DEMS run around waiving their arms that about GITMO AND ABU-GARIB and torture while constantly hiding the fact that the USA confiscated in iraq from a taliban safe-house a torture manual with torture so severe it violates every CONVENTION in existence and that gets swept under the rug along with the fact that...

RIGHT NOW friend and foe here and overseas, want to subject the US MILITARY personnel to indictment and prosecution by the ICC.

GERMANY AND ITALY have actually already indicted US CIA agents for supposedly capturing radical islamic terriorists.

This is an infringement on our SOVEREIGNTY and a dagger aimed at our US MILITARY.

As a result, they may soon want to charge our troops overseas whom are fighting against terriorism, with trumped up "war crime" charges.

Charges like claiming Americans committed genocide, or claim we committed crimes against humanity. There's a leftist group in Paris, plus Argentina, Sweden, whom want to charge Rumsfeld for allegedly authorizing torture at Guantanamo bay, and abu Graib prison in Iraq claiming 1984 convention against torture, which FRANCE has used in previous torture cases.

it's really time to put the UN on notice that the days where the USA would mindlessly supply it with money, men, military equipment and blood without conditions are simply over.

In fact the latest---the new UN SEC GENERAL has already stipulated he wants NYC police officers to serve in UN peacekeeping mission in places like haiti, kosovo, and liberia.

here is one more reason why

CLINTON IN 2000 gave his blessing to the whole globalist thing on the UN "INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT (ICC). The DEMOCRATS all along want to make US citizens SERVANTS TO THE UN AS OUR GOVERNMENT instead of a country governed by WE THE PEOPLE.

Thankfully Bush saw the serious threat this Socialist star chamber posed to our military and he told them to stuff a sock in it. Apparantly at that time the UN was insulted by it. Although the REPUBLICANS tried twice to negotiate immunity for US peacekeepers thru the Sec Council.

Well, the anti-Americans at the UN wouldn't have any of it and the Abu Graib prison gave Kofi Annan the opening he wanted. The he tried to wrap himself in the human right mantle by claiming it would be unfotunate for someone to press for such an exemption given the prisoner abuse in Iraq.

We all know that if Mr. Amman really cared a thing about human rights he would have protested the revolving membership of certain countries with human rights track records. However, the Sanctimonious UN and Annan are always silent on the topic of human rights; except when it comes to taking cheap shots at the US

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keeping rendition = keeping torture
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 17, 2009 10:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
two days after taking office, obama announced the decision to maintain the CIA 'extraordinary rendition' program. biden said, "you need to preserve some tools - you still have to go after the bad guys."

while no solid numbers were ever posted by the usg itself; word back in 2006 was that there were between 49-60,000 disappeared being held in this international ring of secret prisons and torture chambers under less watchful eyes than even gitmo or abu graib. we have plenty of reports from gitmo; none from any of these other hellholes.

we have since been told that "all secret CIA prisons have been closed." however, the prisons used in the rendition program were not CIA and are not closed, nor emptied of captives held for the usg.

it should also be said that the just-released memos on torture techniques is far from being the same thing as the actual events. what is written in couched terms in a government office is a different thing from how a thug applies those guidelines in a hidden cell.

obama continues to act and make statements to the effect that torture-as-policy has been ended and that the rule of law has returned in full. yet, reports from gitmo from attorneys of prisoners still held there indicate that not only is torture still ongoing but has actually intensified.

it should also be mentioned that the closing of gitmo has been delayed until sometime in 2010 to 'resituate' those prisoners. what of the allegedly emptied other CIA torture chambers; how were they so much more rapidly emptied?

so the reality is the continuation of torture and the wars. again feverishly attempting to look like change, the fact is of maintaining 50,000 us troops in iraq indefinitely to maintain the colonial status of iraq and its oil. that figure doesn't include contractor/mercenaries such as 'xe,' the new PR name for blackwater, or dynecorp or KBR, etc. goons who commit mass-murders with impunity for kicks.

yesterday, immediately after the DoJ assured us that it had ended the increased NSA illegal spying on us all, atty genl holder reinstituted those exact spy programs and methods. what? it's the shell game; now you see it; now you don't. actually we saw it and still see it; nothing has changed an iota.

obama standing in the way of prosecution for crimes against humanity is a strong indicator that he knows he is and will continue to commit war crimes and is maintaining these positions to further create precedent barring his own trial when the time comes.

onward christian soldiers...

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DEMS SEEK TO FORCE USA UNDER SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING A SEAT AT UN AND ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT---PART B
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Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 17, 2009 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What they are really after is for the US to submit to the will of the UN and it's International criminal court. What they want is for the US to relinquish it's SOVEREIGNTY relagating WE THE PEOPLE of the US to the status of servants to the UN INSTEAD of being governed by WE THE PEOPLE

THIS would for example entail that any USA person could be apprehended by local Muslim authorities for an offense, real or imagined slammed into the ICC and flown to the Hage, netherlands where they would rot for months waiting for trial and done ENTIRELY without due process. they would get not trial and no confronting of accusers, No protection from double jeopardy and no unanimous verdict for a conviction.

Take a second to THINK about this all of the globalists within and without the USA think the murderous Al Qaida terriorists should have these rights from way back before the 1990's and NOW... HOWEVER NOT OUR US SOLDIERS and NOT OUR US CITIZENS.

Even though we can't guarantee that no American soldier is ever taken prisoner by a foreighn state and put before the ICC, we at "least" make sure no US soldier and or civilian meets with this fate.

However, the ICC doesn't want to recognize the CONSTITUTIONAL rights that we as Americans are guaranteed. GET IT?? They too think our constitution is FLAWED.

Meanwhile the globalists Anti-American ICC supporters criticized Mr. Bush claiming we were "undermining international LAW, the reality, THEY were writing new INTERNATIONAL LAWS TO protect themselves.



RIGHT NOW --the GRINCHES at the UN want to create something called a TRANSNATIONAL TREATY where anything protecting our USA PUBLIC that happens in our courts that GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE gets kicked out of court would be sent to THE UN whom will then OVERRIDE THE WILL OF AMERICAN PUBLIC and ENFORCE it's SHARIA LAW rule over this NATION.

Want to know WHAT were the "agreement on the Privileges and immunities of the ICC" ratified with the assent of ONLY 10 NATION--it flat out provides the ICC immunity from "every form of legal process anywhere".

**They stated that the "property, funds, and assets" of the ICC "shall be IMMUNE from search, seizure, requisition, confiscation, expropriation and any other form of interference. And, the ICC and it's assets they said "are to be exempt from all direct taxes" including local taxes and customs.

** Meantime they want to IMPOSE the GLOBAL POVERTY TAX which would most certainly bankrupt the USA; while they engage in the Socialist rhetoric of how we are "selfish" for not wanting to pay more taxes. This is their idea of spread the wealth. Notice the funds are always going someplace else instead of to the PUBLIC.

How many people don't know all throughout history the spread the wealth has always been used in facist/socialist/communist elections.



RIGHT NOW-- OBAMA AND DEMS are attempting to seek a seat at the SHARIA LAW UN and the DEMS want to PUT INTO EFFECT ---TRANSNATIONAL TREATY---what does thaaat mean?? it means anything that the PUBLIC decides in court that is beneficial to WE THE PUBLIC that the GOV doesn't like --it WILL get kicked out of all courts at all levels and be sent TO THE UN international court WHERE they will IMPOSE THE WILL OF SHARIA LAW/UN court on the AMERICAN PUBLIC.

OBAMA AND WASH DC SLUGS WANT TO once again endanger this country by FORCING the US under SERVANTHOOD to the U-NATION which is SHARIA LAW. This will DESTROY our CONSTITUTION and make it IMPOSSIBLE for the USA AMERICAN public to govern themselves. --always the bottom line isn't it??

Long and short of it----the ICC MEMBERS have declared themselves IMMUNE form "personal arrest or detention, Legal process of every kind and immigration restrictions.

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DEMS SEEKING TO FORCE USA UNDER SHARIA LAW BY SEEKING SEAT AT UN AND ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT--PART C
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Posted by: SassyFrassy on Apr 17, 2009 10:38 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What hypocrites, it seems to run DEEP in the UN, but it indicates the lengths to which globalists will go to undermine National SOVEREIGNTY.

There's no mistaking it, the ICC SEVERELY undermines our Sovereignty and has over the years placed our troops at great risk.

It CLAIMS complete jurisdiction over every person in the world and it makes no difference to them whether or not that nation has even ratified the treaty.

And, FRANKLY our own constitution may soon be up to the interpretation of 18 foreign -and for the most part hostile-ICC JUDGES.

Long and short of it, the ICC is literally a dagger in the heart of our US SOVEREIGNTY, our freedom and our independence.

DO you want to know what the ACLU thinks about how 'STUPID' they view Americans. Here is what Norman THOMAS one of the Founders of the ACLU says QUOTE Americans will never "knowingly" accept Socialism, but under "liberalism" Americans will accept every fragment; and one day wake up in a Socialist Nation and "wonder" how it all happened.

What we need to investigate is how the DEMOCRATS and ACLU think that they can continue to count on Americans being as stupid as the ACLU thinks Americans are. So they can further their Soc/glob/marx/fac/comm agenda.

Prior to elections we repeatedly had to complain to the REPUBLICANS that our posts were stonewalled by sites because no one wanted to know the truth.

RIGHT NOW PUBLIC SIGNATURES ARE NEEDED TO PROTECT SOVEREIGNTY---see American Center for law and Justice

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What is Torture?
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Posted by: jal64 on Apr 17, 2009 10:40 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry, folks. I have no sympathy for these poor innocents. Short of bodily harm, such as decapitation, cutting off limbs, stoning or dragging thru the streets, I have no problem accepting any of these so-called "in-humane" techniques.

Critics want to say these techniques do not produce reliable information when in fact the opposite is the truth. It is documented fact that lives have been saved based on information gathered by these effective techniques.

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» BS alert Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: BS alert Posted by: jal64
» RE: BS alert Posted by: Quannah
» bullshit... Posted by: Annapurna1
» RE: bullshit... Posted by: jal64
» bullshit... Posted by: Annapurna1
» RE: bullshit... Posted by: jal64
» RE: bullshit... Posted by: mercianomad
» you didnt rob the bank... Posted by: Annapurna1
» RE: What is Torture? Posted by: Quannah
» RE: What is Torture? Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» RE: What is Torture? Posted by: Quannah
» RE: What is Torture? Posted by: jal64

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response to the torture memos
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Posted by: mbfromhb on Apr 17, 2009 11:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hey ...i know keith obermann wants the cia guys that actually employed this stuff to be tried....my take is quit 'f'ing around and grab that idiot bush with cheney and all these minions or 'cabal' that basically approved and order this sh**. right by the throat and haul their a** to court. BUSH AND THOSE OTHER IDIOTS ARE TRAITORS!!!!!! i mean how stupid are you people. that idiot bush did all this sh** in the name of the american people. and what they did was PROFIT by it. they made a ton of money. thats what this is all this sh**s about. the right-wingers will say ohhh 911 ohh geezz look out... we had to do everything we did to look out....thats bullsh**!!! thats like your kid tellin' you a story so he doesnt get in trouble. jesus, youve been hearing this crap and theres a very small minority thats still believes all that bullsh**! those idiot rightwingers still believe that saddam hussein was involved in the planning and the action of 911. they still believe that sh**!!. theyre morons. and will never accept the truth. well, all those involved in the conduct of the last 8yrs and thats 8yrs of lying through their teeth in order to profit and manipulate whats happened needs to be tried for treason and HUNG! and dont puss out and say ohh we cant do that... get convictions and run them right to the oak tree...and while theyre say ohh ohh woow baa baa baa wa wa waitt!! while the noose is being fitted no last words just kick the chair. what this is, is right up these rightwingers "we're americans" attitude.. its a perfect object lesson that if you do this sh** again...your gonna be hung!!! old west style!!! now that theyll understand!!!

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» Your writing style Posted by: Bliss Doubt

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876
[Report this comment]
Posted by: 876 on Apr 17, 2009 12:07 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some heinous Americans spent their time dreaming this stuff up, most likely the same Americans who speak self righteously regarding Saddam’s human rights violations or the crimes against people by the American sponsored Saudis or Taliban. Regardless, none of this will stop the lunatic American masses from daily asserting their supposed moral superiority or civility or insisting invading sovereign nations is America’s right because they do it to protect humanity.

...In addition, female officers involved in the interrogation process may see the detainees naked, and … we will assume that detainees subjected to nudity as an interrogation technique are aware that they may be seen naked by females."

American womanhood in a nutshell; from the nation that gave the world Girl’s Gone Wild. Yes, it is Americans who will teach humanity what a woman should be.

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