COMMENTS: 150
'These People Fear Prosecution': Why Bush's CIA Team Should Worry About Its Dark Embrace of Torture
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On the night of April 6, a long-secret document was published -- in its entirety for the first time -- that provided a clear, stark look at the CIA torture program carried out by the Bush administration.
Dated Feb. 14, 2007, the 41-page report describes in harrowing detail the "ill treatment" of 14 "high-value" detainees in U.S. custody, as recounted by the prisoners in interviews with the International Committee of the Red Cross.
Besides listing the various kinds of harsh interrogation tactics undertaken by the CIA -- among them "suffocation by water," "prolonged stress standing," "beatings by use of a collar," "confinement in a box," "prolonged nudity," "threats," "forced shaving" and other methods -- the report reveals the disturbing role of medical professionals in the torture of suspects, which included using doctors' equipment to monitor their health, even as torture was carried out.
Just as Americans have known about Bush-era torture for years, lawyers and human rights activists have long known about the ICRC report and its contents. Both are due in large part to the work of journalists and their sources, who have brought to light the many post-9/11 abuses committed in the name of counterterrorism.
In February 2005, Jane Mayer of the New Yorker magazine published a story called "Outsourcing Torture: The Secret History of America's 'Extraordinary Rendition' Program," which reported in intricate detail the sordid mechanisms of the Bush administration's kidnap-and-torture program -- a practice so violent and dramatic that it inspired a major Hollywood film a few years later.
As Mayer wrote at the time, however, "Rendition is just one element of the administration's new paradigm."
The CIA itself is holding dozens of 'high value' terrorist suspects outside of the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., in addition to the estimated 550 detainees in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The administration confirmed the identities of at least 10 of these suspects to the 9/11 Commission -- including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a top al-Qaida operative … -- but refused to allow commission members to interview the men, and would not say where they were being held. Reports have suggested that CIA prisons are being operated in Thailand, Qatar and Afghanistan, among other countries. At the request of the CIA, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld personally ordered that a prisoner in Iraq be hidden from Red Cross officials for several months, and Army Gen. Paul Kern told Congress that the CIA may have hidden up to a hundred detainees."
Among the revelations of the ICRC report is that the CIA did indeed hide prisoners from the Red Cross.
Mayer has been a staff writer at the New Yorker since 1995. In the years after 9/11, her investigative articles have been critical to piecing together the story of how the United States became a country that tortures in the name of the so-called "war on terror."
Mayer was recently awarded the Ron Ridenhour Prize for her book, The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How The War on Terror Turned Into a War on American Ideals (Doubleday). Co-sponsored by The Nation Institute and the Fertel Foundation, the Ridenhour prize honors journalists and whistle-blowers whose work has helped to "protect the public interest, promote social justice or illuminate a more just vision of society." Mayer will be honored alongside other winners of the Ridenhour prize on April 16 at the National Press Club in Washington.
AlterNet's Rights & Liberties Editor Liliana Segura spoke to Mayer over the phone from New York, the morning after the release of the ICRC report.
***
Liliana Segura: Last night, the full ICRC report was posted online, detailing the torture at the CIA black sites. Of course, you've been writing for a long time about this; how did you first come to know about the report, and what's the significance of it coming out now, especially with everything it reveals about medical professionals being involved in torture?
Jane Mayer: Well, there are certain confidential source issues that cover how I first came to know about it, but I can say that when I did finally talk to people who were familiar with what was in it -- which was more than a year ago at this point -- what I was hearing was so startling that it just completely stopped me dead in my tracks.
Basically, what I was hearing was that there was a report that was by this independent authority -- the ICRC, which is not a political entity in any way. It's a very cautious group and has tremendous credibility -- saying that there was an actual program of torture that was implemented by the U.S. government, and that the government had been warned that what it was doing was breaking the law.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Woodpecker on Apr 11, 2009 1:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Terry
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» Personally
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Personally
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: So what the(insert expletive here) are we going to DO about this?
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» I think the title should be changed to include "...torture AND assassination". What do you think?
Posted by: Prophit
» The answer is "Nothing".
Posted by: mrcentrist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pfgetty on Apr 11, 2009 3:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason? I think it is partly because Americans generally do not feel a lot of compassion for people who would have been part of a plan to attack us on 9/11. As long as the official story is allowed to remain as the only story, then Americans feel that those being tortured deserve what they get. The excuse has been that if torture can bring us some insight into al Qaeda, then go for it. Not my morality, but it seems to be the American people's, and it doesn't seem to change.
AND, I think the American people haven't seen anything proving that Bush ordered the WORST of the torture, the really horrible painful deadly torture that people traditionally have thought of when the word torture is used.
In any case, this stuff just isn't getting traction.
What WOULD get traction is exposing the lies of 9/11. Once brought to the American people, the obvious lies of 9/11 would soon bring on a hailstorm of disgust and eventually a criminal trial and prosecution. The evidence is there, piles of it, with so many issues about that day. Just read one book by David Ray Griffin, like Debunking the Debunking, and it becomes obvious that AT LEAST we should pursue the truth about 9/11 and re-investigate.
But it takes journalists being brave and exposing all they can, following the threads of evidence and contradictions, and that will lead to the awareness needed in the public.
As this article just stated:
Just as Americans have known about Bush-era torture for years, lawyers and human rights activists have long known about the ICRC report and its contents. Both are due in large part to the work of journalists and the sources who have brought to light the many post-9/11 abuses committed in the name of counterterrorism.
Do the same for 9/11, and the results will not be ho hum.
For some reason, American journalists will not touch this subject, and if they do they feel the need to mock 9/11 truth, like Joshua Holland did. Alternet just cannot find it in itself to simply bring out the many facts that prove 9/11 was an inside job. The rest of the alternative media is the same.
We don't know why. They won't tell us. Seven and a half years, no responsible journalism in this, the biggest story of all time.
Shame on American journalists. Our future has been dimmed greatly by their decision to purposely ignore the subject.
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» RE: Seven and a half years, no responsible journalism in this, the biggest story of all time
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» You must be right, Lauren. What other possible explanation?
Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: You must be right, Lauren. What other possible explanation?
Posted by: Shutterbug
» RE: Thank you Jim
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I knew Pat Buchanon was in on the abuse
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: From Operation Mockingbird: CIA Media Manipulation,
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: professions presented in the thousands on the website Patriots Question 911, but no journalists
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Know about Google Latitude? I suspect Google is a CIA spy Operation
Posted by: common intelligence
» This is as good as it gets for 9/11 truth in the mainstream media:
Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: But this stuff just doesn't get a grip on the American people. 9/11 truth would !
Posted by: desdinova
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 11, 2009 4:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama tells us he's too busy indebting our children's and grandchildren's generations for trillions to enrich and protect his avaricious Wall Street benefactor swindlers and escalating the Afghan war to deal with the issue.
If any crimes should be punished, it's war crimes. These are not victimless crimes like drug possession, nor is the damage limited to those killed under torture or physically or psychologically injured. The reputation of the US has been severely compromised, resulting in the estrangement of our allies and, according to military and intelligence sources, a recruiting boon for terrorists.
Failing to punish the perpetrators sends a loud and clear message to the Muslim world that the US does not value their lives and rights; B. Hussain Obama's charm offensives cannot offset the damage of his accessory after the fact status in obstructing justice.
All of the arguments against prosecution are special pleading which would infuriate conservatives if voiced in reference to any other offenses or groups of criminals.
If Obama refuses to prosecute or extradite accused war criminals, the US should abandon its bid for a UN human rights panel seat, stop producing human rights reports on other countries, and sit in ignominious silence as a member of the rogues' gallery with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Libya and, yes, Israel.
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» RE: Sheer Cowardice and Hypocrisy
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Sheer Cowardice and Hypocrisy
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: Why do you think Comcast is keeping me from watching the local news
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Amazing, two things came to mind reading just this one phrase you used....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Amazing, two things came to mind reading just this one phrase you used....
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Buying private legal insurance
Posted by: leighsure
» RE: Buying private legal insurance
Posted by: DrBrian
» RE: Why Bush didn't pardon his goons and why Obama is protecting them
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Another Lame Excuse
Posted by: DrBrian
» Mentioned tonight on MSNBC, was CIA message
Posted by: hardwroc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sister_Lauren on Apr 11, 2009 4:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I posted links yesterday to Kay Griggs talking about her husband. To me it all rings true.
My father was a snatch and grab victim on his 18th birthday towards the end of WWII. Soldiers came right into his house and took him out of bed and put him in the military.
As a sickly boy with homosexual tendencies he HATED the military.
He did tell me though about how the brass liked him and wanted him to be an officer. He thought he would be fragged or shot in the back.
I can see now what they had in mind. My father was a VERY handsome man. I bet if he wasn't such a pacifist, he could have been a military officer! (I am so glad he wasn't.)
After the military he went into chemistry and worked for Dow Chemical, finally ending up doing audio/visual which he dearly loved doing, but died of AIDS.
I was heart broken.
After I learned of my fathers homosexuality, I always wondered why he was treated so nicely by his company.
Here I was hearing gay men were discriminated against, but my dad's situation seemed in fact to be quite the opposite. They cut him a lot of slack at Dow, a surprising amount. I always wondered why. I don't wonder anymore. Now I understand the corporate mindset there.
I think my husband was a victim of the childhood 'training' Kay Griggs talks about, a secret it took me 30 years to even get a clue. I have several now. Lots.
Last night I called the police again.
I wanted the rape victim's hotline. How do I know that isn't the CIA too? I don't, but at least she acknowledged that what I went through was torture.
No one else has ever done that before.
This CIA disease is a lot bigger then just about anyone realizes. It is huge.
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» Sister_Lauren Who Are You?
Posted by: AlteredStates
» RE: Sister Lauren Who Are You?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Sister Lauren Who Are You? Part II
Posted by: AlteredStates
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peterjkraus on Apr 11, 2009 5:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I am actually willing to bet money, Obama will never prosecute...
Posted by: Prophit
» There are two Big Lies
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: shill on Apr 11, 2009 5:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Don't Hold Your Breath
Posted by: Basenjis
» I gave you a "5" because I want so badly to have you be right....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I gave you a "5" because I want so badly to have you be right....
Posted by: tazdelaney
» RE: So how exactly can the public be engaged in toppling the tyrants
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 11, 2009 6:05 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, Democrats warned Bush about al Qaeda. The evidence was there when they stepped into office, and while I don't believe they had a hand in it (as many people do), they certainly ignored the threat. For that, I think we can blame C. Rice. Not to mention that they spirited the Saudis out of the country on a day when all other air traffic was frozen. Having screwed up, they over-reacted. Or at least that's how I read it, and, of course, that's not how they would spin it if we get attacked.
So my hope is that the International Court, which Bush/Cheney were at pains to ignore,will bring charges and Obama will not stand in the way. There's plenty of evidence.
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» RE: Obama is waiting to do it
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» I like the burning building analogy;
Posted by: hardwroc
» RE: Obama's Not Going to Do It
Posted by: nha16
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wint on Apr 11, 2009 6:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Saint Molly Ivans
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Saint Molly Ivans
Posted by: wint
Comments are closed-
Posted by: IsidoroRDL on Apr 11, 2009 6:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consequently, the Constitution is the “a superior paramount law,” on the limits on government power which may not be changed by either executive, legislation or judicial fiat. These prohibitions and restrictions on government power is within or outside of the United States
As the noted scholar Oliver P. Field, we as a people has a historical concern over excessive authority asserted by either a tyrannical executive, legislative, or judicial branch in violation of the rights of all individuals protected by the Constitution. Thus, we as a people came regard the access to an impartial court as the ultimate guardians of individual rights. Any act that invaded these rights and limits on the government power was to be judged unconstitutional and treated as though it never existed.
However, in response to both the Civil Rights Acts of the 1960's and Watergate legislation of the 1970's, under both Republic and Democratic Administrations, there has been a collusion by the Executive Branch (DOJ) and the Judicial Branch during the past 34 years under Chief Justices Burger, Rehnquist, and now Roberts, to do away with restrictions and prohibitions on government power by usurping legislative authority through abusing power delegated by Congress under the Rules Enabling Act and the Judicial Conference Act, so to develop and implement policies to affecting all individuals-citizen and non citizen alike:
● limiting access to an impartial courts;
● do away with independent practitioners of the courts abuse of power;
● abuse the discretion of summary judgement so deny the right to jury trials;
● to minimize the fundamental rights protected by the Constitution;
● hold that outside of the US there are no Constitutional restrictions on government power; and,
● hold that both the Executive and Judicial Branch are absolutely immune from a private citizens suit for either criminal or tortious acts.
The Rule of Law has now become a political slogan and not a reality based on judicial. Thus, the Judicial Branch and Executive Branch have unilaterally declared themselves no longer accountable for malfeasance fiat (see, http://www.liamsdad.org/others/isidoro.shtml and http://home.earthlink.net/~isidoror).
As Thomas Jefferson foretold: "[t]he germ of destruction of our nation is in the power of the judiciary, an irresponsible body - working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall render powerless the checks of one branch over the other and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."
Isidoro Rodriguez, Esq.
Member of the Bar of the U.S. Supreme Court
since September 11, 1992
7924Payton Forest Trail
Annandale, Virginia 22003-1560
Telephone: 571.423.5066
E-Mail: isidoror@EarthLink.net
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» Mukasey laughs in our face
Posted by: weathered
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TGFaull on Apr 11, 2009 6:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WSGwnz7XpY&feature=related
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» RE: The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: daw13
» RE: They wanted chaos
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: raiders757
» RE: The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: Aquinas
» RE: You might ask your public servants why this is so. Or ask them to deny it.
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jmndodge on Apr 11, 2009 6:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: esurrection...
Posted by: weathered
» Ditto!!!!!!
Posted by: Prophit
» The problem isn't that we have failed to recognize the death...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: The problem isn't that we have failed to recognize the death...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Nope, the same people or organizaitons are still running this gov, even under Obama...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Nope, the same people or organizaitons are still running this gov, even under Obama...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: True, but better yet, "purge it out by its very roots, to kill the disease"...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leafsong1 on Apr 11, 2009 7:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I think these two paragraphs in the article were invisible
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Isn't that what Bush said, too?
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: What did you expect
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Isn't that what Bush said, too?
Posted by: Basenjis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Quannah on Apr 11, 2009 9:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The inquiry is targeting six attorneys responsible for devising the legal architecture that allowed torture to be official US policy. Those six are Office of Legal Counsel lawyers John Yoo and Jay Bybee, White House lawyers Alberto Gonzales and David Addington, and Defense Department lawyers Douglas Feith and William Haynes.
The complaint that initiated the investigation alleges that these lawyers "participated actively and decisively in the creation, approval and execution of a judicial framework that allowed for the deprivation of fundamental rights of a large number of prisoners, the implementation of new interrogation techniques including torture, the legal cover for the treatment of those prisoners, the protection of the people who participated in illegal tortures and, above all, the establishment of impunity for all the government workers, military personnel, doctors and others who participated in the detention centre at Guantanamo."
Spain isn't the only country conducting a criminal investigation. On March 26, Britain's attorney general, Patricia Scotland, sent out an announcement that she was launching a criminal investigation into allegations that British security officials were complicit in the torture of Binyam Mohamed, a British resident captured by US officials in Pakistan and rendered to Morocco and Afghanistan before being taken to Guantanamo.
Europeans are investigating this on the premise that TORTURE IS NEVER JUSTIFIED. And that any complicity in it warrants inquiry and punishment.
Both Spanish and British law, as well as American law, recognizes universal jurisdiction for crimes of torture, meaning that torturers can be prosecuted anywhere, regardless of where they committed their crimes. But, secondly, some of those held at Guantanamo were Spanish and British citizens.
If we won't do it, others will.
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» Credit to David Cole for the above information.
Posted by: Quannah
» Vermont took a very
Posted by: weathered
» RE: 'if its not reported in didn't happen'
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Vermont took a very
Posted by: left_witch
» RE: Vermont took a very
Posted by: weathered
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Apr 11, 2009 9:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's be honest, even though We are not the epitome in Womens rights- we are centuries ahead of both these two. Had it come out we had tortured female prisoners- there would have been a greater outrage.
When a husband kills his wife we want to see him fry.But when it's an "honor Killing" we condemn the entire community.And Frankly to some extent Rightly So.Many times these communities refuse to help police.Not only because they don't want to get involved (excuse of Americans), but because in their ideology dicates a sacred 'law' was broken and 'justice' was served. The Girl had Disgraced her family, and thus the community by particiapting in some activity outside their perameters of acceptablity.
what keep these incidence of 'Honor Killings' in check in the States is the knowledge the 'outer' communities will hold their community accountable- so it happens less frequently.
Now consider the entire society not only looks away- but knows there are in communal agreement,thus no adverse reprecussions. The incidences increase and are seen as legitmate.
These Two cultures not only consider Women second class citizens, but possessions and disposable at that (Vietnamese sent daughters out to 'sweep' for land mines, because they were not as valuable as the sons).
this is why Womens Rights inparticular, have been one of the hardest Human rights issues to crack.
But lets not pat ourselves on the back to quickly- we have proven there are Long held Western Ideologies which leant their 'blessing' to this global practice and concepts,(ei Womens reproductive rights are still up for Debate- but Males never comes up in discussion or legislation.If my uterus is 'on the table', so should be Testicles)
so Bush's torture not only endangered innocent people- they have further jeporadized Womens lives. These cultures might think Twice about a mans life- but little about the value of a womans life. These Ladies only hope is that these two cultures (Gov't) realize, that even though women are still not 'equals' in our society, their torture and murders will provoke a far more dangerous gutteral response.Hell even hardened criminals in our prisons will threaten the life of a Rapist.Reason "Yo Momma" comments can get you beat up.Actually a facinating Irony about our Culture 'values'. The battle between Male machismo and dominance vs Chivalry. He'll beat the hell out of his wife- but laying a hand on his mother, sister or Daughter could get you killed.I guess we can at least claim the American male is a Work in progress.
It will Take not just an outcry from Women's Group to assure these Womens welbeingand Return- but harsh reactions from Males. We need the Boys to go to bat for these ladies. Hillary will not be regarded as Authorative enough.We need the boys in uniforms with the most Medal to show them what Western Chivalry means.They will understand that if our males are willing to go to such lengths to free 'mere' females- they will certainly do the same for any males.Which may negate such situations in the future.
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» RE: Irony about our Culture 'values'
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rimchamp77 on Apr 11, 2009 9:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: EinMD on Apr 11, 2009 10:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We didn't accept "I was just following orders" from Adolf Eichmann and we should absolutely not accept it from the CIA either.
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» RE: They absolutly should fear prosecution
Posted by: wint
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sister_Lauren on Apr 11, 2009 10:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on Apr 11, 2009 10:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People, with their heads in the sand, that are pushing for criminal action against the Bush administration, ignore the fact that the Bush administration demonstratedly kept us safe from further homeland attacks. Such action is reminiscent of third world "banana republics" activity after a regime change. These people are either interested in continuing to divide this nation to the point where we will never heal, or are suffering from the "Bush Derangement Syndrome”. The former should themselves be investigated by the Justice Department, and the latter should get professional psychiatric help.
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» RE: BulldogRedemer Where have you been these past eight years?
Posted by: vsargis
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: left_witch
» Kept us safe? You seem to be forgetting 9/11...
Posted by: LeftWright
» Yeah Just ask Miss Universe!!!
Posted by: RR#1
» You mean Cheney told us we got massive intel torturing.
Posted by: hardwroc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on Apr 11, 2009 11:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: BulldogRedemer - You're on the wrong website
Posted by: wireup
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: tazdelaney
» RE: BulldogRedemer - pervert
Posted by: GuitarBill
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 11, 2009 11:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fact, the new JOD has actively supported, even extended, Bushco positions on "official secrets" and other, related "security" issues (remembering that "security" always really means officials' PERSONAL security.)
So Mayers' later excuse for Obama non-performance on this issue, that they're overwhelmed and haven't gotten to it, doesn't quite wash.
And I noticed something surprising: out of 38 comments, not a single Obama defender has chimed in. Do you suppose they are finally ashamed? I mean, we're talking about TORTURE. Even they must have their boundaries.
(Republicans evidently don't, witness "Bulldog Redeemer". But don't respond to him.)
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» RE: "What would it take for that to happen? It would take Obama"
Posted by: hedgewytch
» THat's one quote. Here are more from the interview.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: THat's one quote. Here are more from the interview.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: It all comes from the Shadow Factory
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LTBROWN on Apr 11, 2009 11:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How did the list of names get compiled? Who did they know or what do they know? Terrorist plots my @ss. Someone doesn't want their NAME AND THEIR part in the raping and killing of our country, brought forth. Now, Will any of us be alive to hear and examine the REAL TRUTH? I DOUBT IT.
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» RE: Stop doubting it and blame the monopolistic, CIA controlled press
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 11, 2009 12:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's Glenn Greenwald on Obama's DOJ supporting Bagram as a permanent extra-legal black hole for "renditioned" prisoners. Even a right-wing judge didn't buy it.
Read it and weep. Bagram, you remember, was and is one of the chief American torture centers.
Still a Democrat?
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» RE: Another Aspect - This is NOT what I voted for last November
Posted by: wireup
» RE: Another Aspect - This is NOT what I voted for last November
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Still a Democrat
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Yes
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Truelass on Apr 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Truelass
Posted by: Truelass
» RE: I don't think it is acceptable
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: luzmejor on Apr 11, 2009 1:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, if perhaps a victim said something/anything that could be used as marginally credible propaganda, they would have enjoyed that means of fooling American citizens, too.
Anyone involved in these prisons could be prosecuted unless they were cooperating to bring to justice the planners and executors of those wholesale kidnappings, bribery, imprisonment and torture.
"By their works ye shall know them."
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» RE: does anyone think that torture was done to get information?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: does anyone think that torture was done to get information?
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: bluebama II on Apr 11, 2009 3:44 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: GOP is in ruins because of their war crimes
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: GOP is in ruins because of their war crimes
Posted by: hedgewytch
» RE: Greens and Libertarians
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Greens and Libertarians
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Greens and Libertarians
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: bluebama II
Posted by: james108
» RE: bluebama II
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 11, 2009 4:25 PM
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» RE: necessary tool
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: phindrup on Apr 11, 2009 5:33 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the financial mess begins to sort itself out, the US may find that there are those where will not trade with them. Perhaps will not allow any airline that services the US to overfly their countries.
Then too, there is the point that all those involved in the Bush years of horror, Blair and Howard and their cronies included, are targets for as long as they live, and if the US, UK and Australia will do nothing, then there is the long established precedence of ‘snatching’ the accused and spiriting them off for trial.
The final option if nothing is done, is for those offended against to seek personal revenge. A bullet in the head is not as good/satisfying as having them tried and declared murderous scum, before they are dragged begging and screaming to the scaffold, but a little satisfaction is vastly better than none.
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» RE: Shoot your own dogs, or others will
Posted by: james108
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 11, 2009 5:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i went out way uptown here on 83rd street and 1st avenue at 1:30pm, when we were already starting to list the blatant outpoints in the official story. stepping outside our building, the air hit me like a wall. approaching 1st avenue i saw that it was a mournful parade of people as far as the eye could see. people were out with their children, babies in carriages, trying to reassure them that all was okay, 'the government has it under control.'
two nights later i went out and there was the crystalline plume which would fow across the region for weeks. for the first time in my life, i projectile vomited into the gutter with no warning. two nights later the same thing happened. by the following day, i was very intestinally ill, couldn't hold anything either up or down. on 9/21 i almost died, no money or insurance coverage. a friend may have saved my life by telling my wife to get me some liquid activated charcoal, a great detoxifier.
some months later i happened to see a column by jimmy breslin who, it turned out, had alaso gotten just the malady i had right after 911. he'd looked into it and learned that at least 140,000 other new yorkers had gone to doctor or hospital with the same illness. like me, he had seen nothing at all in the mainstream media covering this.
if that were the only dereliction of duty by the usg on that day, it would've been enough to warrant charges of treason by so deliberately endangering public safety.
but as is soooo apparent, the suppression of authentic inquiry into 911 has been blanket, demeaning us as 'conspiracy theorists.'
my wife and i have always thought of 911 as 'reichstag fire II' and it continues to date, complete with torture chambers, camps, wars, surveillance, secrecy. the only thing missing is the swastikas.
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» RE: The only thing missing is the swastikas
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Air quality
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Mass murder is the word I would use for it
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Pentagon, it was a drone
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Pentagon, it was a drone
Posted by: kellysgarden
» Waterboard Silverstein
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein
Posted by: Krotos
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 12, 2009 9:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Here's the deal
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Here's the deal - Maybe Not?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: maxsmart on Apr 12, 2009 11:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And with the entire Cold War history we have I find it difficult to believe it was all mostly low tech tortured, I think the Abu Graib pictures kind of give an inkling of the sado-masochistic psycho-sexual tortures that might be more difficult to discern the scars from.
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» RE: sado-masochistic psycho-sexual tortures
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: melpol on Apr 12, 2009 12:49 PM
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» RE: Silenced Victims.
Posted by: mrcentrist
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Posted by: sleepingdog on Apr 12, 2009 5:17 PM
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Posted by: mrcentrist on Apr 12, 2009 6:25 PM
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Posted by: Collielady on Apr 12, 2009 10:00 PM
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Posted by: cashelboylo on Apr 14, 2009 2:46 AM
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Medical professionals have carried out this same role since the invention of the racket called Medicine.
The Spanish Inquisition had "Doctors" in attendance -- and many of the drivers of the tortures and murders were so-called "Doctors of the Church."
A major secret agenda of "Witch Trials" including those of Salem, Massachusetts, has always been the elimination of "Old Wives" (midwives) for the benefit of medical "doctors."
And the Most Monstrous Monsters of the Third Reich were Doctors like Mengele. The SS provided the Guards, the Medical Profession provided the Torturer-Murderers.
And most of the Human Spare Parts racket is organized and carried out by "Doctors."
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Posted by: Little Bad Wolf on Apr 15, 2009 8:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America has set a terrible example of abuse for the rest of the world, and now has no grounds for complaint if Americans are treated as we have treated others. We have especially endangered our military by our foolishness. No soldier, private or general, can expect civilised conditions, nor can the International Red Cross be expected to protect our people when we are flagrant abusers of international standards and protections. We have broken faith with our children, volunteers on whom we depend for protection.
Rather than carrying freedom's torch we have carried the torturer's brand to the rest of the world. Now America has to win back its Place in the world and its seat at the table of nations. It is not up to the Spanish to prosecute our false leaders. We must do it ourselves to start the healing process.
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Posted by: metamind on Apr 16, 2009 2:50 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Obama administration has clearly stated it believes the myth of Osama bin Laden and his gang of terrorists. If 9-11 was a creation of some agency or rogue elements within our own government, then the foreign policy of the U.S. is currently founded on a false premise.
That's not a "little matter" to be swept under the rug. It'a s MAJOR DEAL which needs to be exposed.
It means we have to admit we were "conned" by someone or some organization. It means that the true conspiracy is different than the one we allege to be operated by Osama bin Laden.
It means we "got it wrong."
There is sufficient cause for a thorough investigation of everything connected with 9-11. The fact that the Democrats and President Obama seem disinterested in this fact should concern us all greatly.
Set the truth free and the truth will set us free. Investigate 9-11 correctly, completely and conclusively.
Steve Moyer
http://stevemoyer.us
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Posted by: johngary on Apr 16, 2009 8:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you recall, the first count against every Nazi leader was UNPROVOKED WAR!!
Recall that was the major crime against humanity.
The crime against humanity we should be looking at is the unprovoked war against Iraq!
Based on our adoption of the UN Charter and the Nuremberg Convention, we accepted as a matter of criminal law that any unprovoked war would be a criminal act and a crime against humanity.
But now this distraction. WHY? Perhaps not only the Bush Administration people feel guilty but also quite a few Senators.
So the criminals go free and we will probably round up a few lower echelon CIA agents, put them in jail and assuage our conscience!
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Posted by: rtpricetag on Apr 17, 2009 4:27 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This nation WILL NOT return to a Constitutional-Gov of Law until every one of these criminals and retards are brought to justice, what terms they get is up to the Court's and Justice. However we will never become a decent nation and true Democracy again until the above justice is fulfilled.
By the way, the Presidents own private-military answering directly to the President, called the Covert CIA Paramilitary needs end IMMEDIATELY or sooner.
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Posted by: Urban Myth #3 on Apr 18, 2009 7:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Parodies of freedom are in no-one's interest.
Saddam, for all his crimes, was strung up by an anonymous lynch Mob - unacceptable, if people who commit the same crimes walk.
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Posted by: Woodpecker on Apr 11, 2009 1:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Terry
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» Personally
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Personally
Posted by: peacefullaim1
» RE: So what the(insert expletive here) are we going to DO about this?
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» I think the title should be changed to include "...torture AND assassination". What do you think?
Posted by: Prophit
» The answer is "Nothing".
Posted by: mrcentrist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pfgetty on Apr 11, 2009 3:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reason? I think it is partly because Americans generally do not feel a lot of compassion for people who would have been part of a plan to attack us on 9/11. As long as the official story is allowed to remain as the only story, then Americans feel that those being tortured deserve what they get. The excuse has been that if torture can bring us some insight into al Qaeda, then go for it. Not my morality, but it seems to be the American people's, and it doesn't seem to change.
AND, I think the American people haven't seen anything proving that Bush ordered the WORST of the torture, the really horrible painful deadly torture that people traditionally have thought of when the word torture is used.
In any case, this stuff just isn't getting traction.
What WOULD get traction is exposing the lies of 9/11. Once brought to the American people, the obvious lies of 9/11 would soon bring on a hailstorm of disgust and eventually a criminal trial and prosecution. The evidence is there, piles of it, with so many issues about that day. Just read one book by David Ray Griffin, like Debunking the Debunking, and it becomes obvious that AT LEAST we should pursue the truth about 9/11 and re-investigate.
But it takes journalists being brave and exposing all they can, following the threads of evidence and contradictions, and that will lead to the awareness needed in the public.
As this article just stated:
Just as Americans have known about Bush-era torture for years, lawyers and human rights activists have long known about the ICRC report and its contents. Both are due in large part to the work of journalists and the sources who have brought to light the many post-9/11 abuses committed in the name of counterterrorism.
Do the same for 9/11, and the results will not be ho hum.
For some reason, American journalists will not touch this subject, and if they do they feel the need to mock 9/11 truth, like Joshua Holland did. Alternet just cannot find it in itself to simply bring out the many facts that prove 9/11 was an inside job. The rest of the alternative media is the same.
We don't know why. They won't tell us. Seven and a half years, no responsible journalism in this, the biggest story of all time.
Shame on American journalists. Our future has been dimmed greatly by their decision to purposely ignore the subject.
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» RE: Seven and a half years, no responsible journalism in this, the biggest story of all time
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» You must be right, Lauren. What other possible explanation?
Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: You must be right, Lauren. What other possible explanation?
Posted by: Shutterbug
» RE: Thank you Jim
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: I knew Pat Buchanon was in on the abuse
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: From Operation Mockingbird: CIA Media Manipulation,
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: professions presented in the thousands on the website Patriots Question 911, but no journalists
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Know about Google Latitude? I suspect Google is a CIA spy Operation
Posted by: common intelligence
» This is as good as it gets for 9/11 truth in the mainstream media:
Posted by: pfgetty
» RE: But this stuff just doesn't get a grip on the American people. 9/11 truth would !
Posted by: desdinova
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 11, 2009 4:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama tells us he's too busy indebting our children's and grandchildren's generations for trillions to enrich and protect his avaricious Wall Street benefactor swindlers and escalating the Afghan war to deal with the issue.
If any crimes should be punished, it's war crimes. These are not victimless crimes like drug possession, nor is the damage limited to those killed under torture or physically or psychologically injured. The reputation of the US has been severely compromised, resulting in the estrangement of our allies and, according to military and intelligence sources, a recruiting boon for terrorists.
Failing to punish the perpetrators sends a loud and clear message to the Muslim world that the US does not value their lives and rights; B. Hussain Obama's charm offensives cannot offset the damage of his accessory after the fact status in obstructing justice.
All of the arguments against prosecution are special pleading which would infuriate conservatives if voiced in reference to any other offenses or groups of criminals.
If Obama refuses to prosecute or extradite accused war criminals, the US should abandon its bid for a UN human rights panel seat, stop producing human rights reports on other countries, and sit in ignominious silence as a member of the rogues' gallery with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Libya and, yes, Israel.
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» RE: Sheer Cowardice and Hypocrisy
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Sheer Cowardice and Hypocrisy
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: Why do you think Comcast is keeping me from watching the local news
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Amazing, two things came to mind reading just this one phrase you used....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Amazing, two things came to mind reading just this one phrase you used....
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Buying private legal insurance
Posted by: leighsure
» RE: Buying private legal insurance
Posted by: DrBrian
» RE: Why Bush didn't pardon his goons and why Obama is protecting them
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Another Lame Excuse
Posted by: DrBrian
» Mentioned tonight on MSNBC, was CIA message
Posted by: hardwroc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sister_Lauren on Apr 11, 2009 4:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I posted links yesterday to Kay Griggs talking about her husband. To me it all rings true.
My father was a snatch and grab victim on his 18th birthday towards the end of WWII. Soldiers came right into his house and took him out of bed and put him in the military.
As a sickly boy with homosexual tendencies he HATED the military.
He did tell me though about how the brass liked him and wanted him to be an officer. He thought he would be fragged or shot in the back.
I can see now what they had in mind. My father was a VERY handsome man. I bet if he wasn't such a pacifist, he could have been a military officer! (I am so glad he wasn't.)
After the military he went into chemistry and worked for Dow Chemical, finally ending up doing audio/visual which he dearly loved doing, but died of AIDS.
I was heart broken.
After I learned of my fathers homosexuality, I always wondered why he was treated so nicely by his company.
Here I was hearing gay men were discriminated against, but my dad's situation seemed in fact to be quite the opposite. They cut him a lot of slack at Dow, a surprising amount. I always wondered why. I don't wonder anymore. Now I understand the corporate mindset there.
I think my husband was a victim of the childhood 'training' Kay Griggs talks about, a secret it took me 30 years to even get a clue. I have several now. Lots.
Last night I called the police again.
I wanted the rape victim's hotline. How do I know that isn't the CIA too? I don't, but at least she acknowledged that what I went through was torture.
No one else has ever done that before.
This CIA disease is a lot bigger then just about anyone realizes. It is huge.
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» Sister_Lauren Who Are You?
Posted by: AlteredStates
» RE: Sister Lauren Who Are You?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Sister Lauren Who Are You? Part II
Posted by: AlteredStates
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peterjkraus on Apr 11, 2009 5:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I am actually willing to bet money, Obama will never prosecute...
Posted by: Prophit
» There are two Big Lies
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: shill on Apr 11, 2009 5:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Don't Hold Your Breath
Posted by: Basenjis
» I gave you a "5" because I want so badly to have you be right....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I gave you a "5" because I want so badly to have you be right....
Posted by: tazdelaney
» RE: So how exactly can the public be engaged in toppling the tyrants
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 11, 2009 6:05 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, Democrats warned Bush about al Qaeda. The evidence was there when they stepped into office, and while I don't believe they had a hand in it (as many people do), they certainly ignored the threat. For that, I think we can blame C. Rice. Not to mention that they spirited the Saudis out of the country on a day when all other air traffic was frozen. Having screwed up, they over-reacted. Or at least that's how I read it, and, of course, that's not how they would spin it if we get attacked.
So my hope is that the International Court, which Bush/Cheney were at pains to ignore,will bring charges and Obama will not stand in the way. There's plenty of evidence.
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» RE: Obama is waiting to do it
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» I like the burning building analogy;
Posted by: hardwroc
» RE: Obama's Not Going to Do It
Posted by: nha16
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Posted by: wint on Apr 11, 2009 6:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Saint Molly Ivans
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Saint Molly Ivans
Posted by: wint
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Posted by: IsidoroRDL on Apr 11, 2009 6:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Consequently, the Constitution is the “a superior paramount law,” on the limits on government power which may not be changed by either executive, legislation or judicial fiat. These prohibitions and restrictions on government power is within or outside of the United States
As the noted scholar Oliver P. Field, we as a people has a historical concern over excessive authority asserted by either a tyrannical executive, legislative, or judicial branch in violation of the rights of all individuals protected by the Constitution. Thus, we as a people came regard the access to an impartial court as the ultimate guardians of individual rights. Any act that invaded these rights and limits on the government power was to be judged unconstitutional and treated as though it never existed.
However, in response to both the Civil Rights Acts of the 1960's and Watergate legislation of the 1970's, under both Republic and Democratic Administrations, there has been a collusion by the Executive Branch (DOJ) and the Judicial Branch during the past 34 years under Chief Justices Burger, Rehnquist, and now Roberts, to do away with restrictions and prohibitions on government power by usurping legislative authority through abusing power delegated by Congress under the Rules Enabling Act and the Judicial Conference Act, so to develop and implement policies to affecting all individuals-citizen and non citizen alike:
● limiting access to an impartial courts;
● do away with independent practitioners of the courts abuse of power;
● abuse the discretion of summary judgement so deny the right to jury trials;
● to minimize the fundamental rights protected by the Constitution;
● hold that outside of the US there are no Constitutional restrictions on government power; and,
● hold that both the Executive and Judicial Branch are absolutely immune from a private citizens suit for either criminal or tortious acts.
The Rule of Law has now become a political slogan and not a reality based on judicial. Thus, the Judicial Branch and Executive Branch have unilaterally declared themselves no longer accountable for malfeasance fiat (see, http://www.liamsdad.org/others/isidoro.shtml and http://home.earthlink.net/~isidoror).
As Thomas Jefferson foretold: "[t]he germ of destruction of our nation is in the power of the judiciary, an irresponsible body - working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall render powerless the checks of one branch over the other and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."
Isidoro Rodriguez, Esq.
Member of the Bar of the U.S. Supreme Court
since September 11, 1992
7924Payton Forest Trail
Annandale, Virginia 22003-1560
Telephone: 571.423.5066
E-Mail: isidoror@EarthLink.net
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» Mukasey laughs in our face
Posted by: weathered
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Posted by: TGFaull on Apr 11, 2009 6:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WSGwnz7XpY&feature=related
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» RE: The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: daw13
» RE: They wanted chaos
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: raiders757
» RE: The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: Aquinas
» RE: You might ask your public servants why this is so. Or ask them to deny it.
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jmndodge on Apr 11, 2009 6:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: esurrection...
Posted by: weathered
» Ditto!!!!!!
Posted by: Prophit
» The problem isn't that we have failed to recognize the death...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: The problem isn't that we have failed to recognize the death...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Nope, the same people or organizaitons are still running this gov, even under Obama...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Nope, the same people or organizaitons are still running this gov, even under Obama...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: True, but better yet, "purge it out by its very roots, to kill the disease"...
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leafsong1 on Apr 11, 2009 7:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I think these two paragraphs in the article were invisible
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Isn't that what Bush said, too?
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: What did you expect
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Isn't that what Bush said, too?
Posted by: Basenjis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Quannah on Apr 11, 2009 9:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The inquiry is targeting six attorneys responsible for devising the legal architecture that allowed torture to be official US policy. Those six are Office of Legal Counsel lawyers John Yoo and Jay Bybee, White House lawyers Alberto Gonzales and David Addington, and Defense Department lawyers Douglas Feith and William Haynes.
The complaint that initiated the investigation alleges that these lawyers "participated actively and decisively in the creation, approval and execution of a judicial framework that allowed for the deprivation of fundamental rights of a large number of prisoners, the implementation of new interrogation techniques including torture, the legal cover for the treatment of those prisoners, the protection of the people who participated in illegal tortures and, above all, the establishment of impunity for all the government workers, military personnel, doctors and others who participated in the detention centre at Guantanamo."
Spain isn't the only country conducting a criminal investigation. On March 26, Britain's attorney general, Patricia Scotland, sent out an announcement that she was launching a criminal investigation into allegations that British security officials were complicit in the torture of Binyam Mohamed, a British resident captured by US officials in Pakistan and rendered to Morocco and Afghanistan before being taken to Guantanamo.
Europeans are investigating this on the premise that TORTURE IS NEVER JUSTIFIED. And that any complicity in it warrants inquiry and punishment.
Both Spanish and British law, as well as American law, recognizes universal jurisdiction for crimes of torture, meaning that torturers can be prosecuted anywhere, regardless of where they committed their crimes. But, secondly, some of those held at Guantanamo were Spanish and British citizens.
If we won't do it, others will.
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» Credit to David Cole for the above information.
Posted by: Quannah
» Vermont took a very
Posted by: weathered
» RE: 'if its not reported in didn't happen'
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Vermont took a very
Posted by: left_witch
» RE: Vermont took a very
Posted by: weathered
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Apr 11, 2009 9:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's be honest, even though We are not the epitome in Womens rights- we are centuries ahead of both these two. Had it come out we had tortured female prisoners- there would have been a greater outrage.
When a husband kills his wife we want to see him fry.But when it's an "honor Killing" we condemn the entire community.And Frankly to some extent Rightly So.Many times these communities refuse to help police.Not only because they don't want to get involved (excuse of Americans), but because in their ideology dicates a sacred 'law' was broken and 'justice' was served. The Girl had Disgraced her family, and thus the community by particiapting in some activity outside their perameters of acceptablity.
what keep these incidence of 'Honor Killings' in check in the States is the knowledge the 'outer' communities will hold their community accountable- so it happens less frequently.
Now consider the entire society not only looks away- but knows there are in communal agreement,thus no adverse reprecussions. The incidences increase and are seen as legitmate.
These Two cultures not only consider Women second class citizens, but possessions and disposable at that (Vietnamese sent daughters out to 'sweep' for land mines, because they were not as valuable as the sons).
this is why Womens Rights inparticular, have been one of the hardest Human rights issues to crack.
But lets not pat ourselves on the back to quickly- we have proven there are Long held Western Ideologies which leant their 'blessing' to this global practice and concepts,(ei Womens reproductive rights are still up for Debate- but Males never comes up in discussion or legislation.If my uterus is 'on the table', so should be Testicles)
so Bush's torture not only endangered innocent people- they have further jeporadized Womens lives. These cultures might think Twice about a mans life- but little about the value of a womans life. These Ladies only hope is that these two cultures (Gov't) realize, that even though women are still not 'equals' in our society, their torture and murders will provoke a far more dangerous gutteral response.Hell even hardened criminals in our prisons will threaten the life of a Rapist.Reason "Yo Momma" comments can get you beat up.Actually a facinating Irony about our Culture 'values'. The battle between Male machismo and dominance vs Chivalry. He'll beat the hell out of his wife- but laying a hand on his mother, sister or Daughter could get you killed.I guess we can at least claim the American male is a Work in progress.
It will Take not just an outcry from Women's Group to assure these Womens welbeingand Return- but harsh reactions from Males. We need the Boys to go to bat for these ladies. Hillary will not be regarded as Authorative enough.We need the boys in uniforms with the most Medal to show them what Western Chivalry means.They will understand that if our males are willing to go to such lengths to free 'mere' females- they will certainly do the same for any males.Which may negate such situations in the future.
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» RE: Irony about our Culture 'values'
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: rimchamp77 on Apr 11, 2009 9:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: EinMD on Apr 11, 2009 10:23 AM
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We didn't accept "I was just following orders" from Adolf Eichmann and we should absolutely not accept it from the CIA either.
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» RE: They absolutly should fear prosecution
Posted by: wint
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Posted by: Sister_Lauren on Apr 11, 2009 10:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on Apr 11, 2009 10:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People, with their heads in the sand, that are pushing for criminal action against the Bush administration, ignore the fact that the Bush administration demonstratedly kept us safe from further homeland attacks. Such action is reminiscent of third world "banana republics" activity after a regime change. These people are either interested in continuing to divide this nation to the point where we will never heal, or are suffering from the "Bush Derangement Syndrome”. The former should themselves be investigated by the Justice Department, and the latter should get professional psychiatric help.
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» RE: BulldogRedemer Where have you been these past eight years?
Posted by: vsargis
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: left_witch
» Kept us safe? You seem to be forgetting 9/11...
Posted by: LeftWright
» Yeah Just ask Miss Universe!!!
Posted by: RR#1
» You mean Cheney told us we got massive intel torturing.
Posted by: hardwroc
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Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on Apr 11, 2009 11:13 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: BulldogRedemer - You're on the wrong website
Posted by: wireup
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: BulldogRedemer
Posted by: tazdelaney
» RE: BulldogRedemer - pervert
Posted by: GuitarBill
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Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 11, 2009 11:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fact, the new JOD has actively supported, even extended, Bushco positions on "official secrets" and other, related "security" issues (remembering that "security" always really means officials' PERSONAL security.)
So Mayers' later excuse for Obama non-performance on this issue, that they're overwhelmed and haven't gotten to it, doesn't quite wash.
And I noticed something surprising: out of 38 comments, not a single Obama defender has chimed in. Do you suppose they are finally ashamed? I mean, we're talking about TORTURE. Even they must have their boundaries.
(Republicans evidently don't, witness "Bulldog Redeemer". But don't respond to him.)
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» RE: "What would it take for that to happen? It would take Obama"
Posted by: hedgewytch
» THat's one quote. Here are more from the interview.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: THat's one quote. Here are more from the interview.
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: It all comes from the Shadow Factory
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: LTBROWN on Apr 11, 2009 11:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How did the list of names get compiled? Who did they know or what do they know? Terrorist plots my @ss. Someone doesn't want their NAME AND THEIR part in the raping and killing of our country, brought forth. Now, Will any of us be alive to hear and examine the REAL TRUTH? I DOUBT IT.
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» RE: Stop doubting it and blame the monopolistic, CIA controlled press
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 11, 2009 12:20 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's Glenn Greenwald on Obama's DOJ supporting Bagram as a permanent extra-legal black hole for "renditioned" prisoners. Even a right-wing judge didn't buy it.
Read it and weep. Bagram, you remember, was and is one of the chief American torture centers.
Still a Democrat?
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» RE: Another Aspect - This is NOT what I voted for last November
Posted by: wireup
» RE: Another Aspect - This is NOT what I voted for last November
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Still a Democrat
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Yes
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: Truelass on Apr 11, 2009 12:28 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Truelass
Posted by: Truelass
» RE: I don't think it is acceptable
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: luzmejor on Apr 11, 2009 1:14 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, if perhaps a victim said something/anything that could be used as marginally credible propaganda, they would have enjoyed that means of fooling American citizens, too.
Anyone involved in these prisons could be prosecuted unless they were cooperating to bring to justice the planners and executors of those wholesale kidnappings, bribery, imprisonment and torture.
"By their works ye shall know them."
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» RE: does anyone think that torture was done to get information?
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: does anyone think that torture was done to get information?
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: bluebama II on Apr 11, 2009 3:44 PM
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» RE: GOP is in ruins because of their war crimes
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: GOP is in ruins because of their war crimes
Posted by: hedgewytch
» RE: Greens and Libertarians
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Greens and Libertarians
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Greens and Libertarians
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: bluebama II
Posted by: james108
» RE: bluebama II
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 11, 2009 4:25 PM
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» RE: necessary tool
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: phindrup on Apr 11, 2009 5:33 PM
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As the financial mess begins to sort itself out, the US may find that there are those where will not trade with them. Perhaps will not allow any airline that services the US to overfly their countries.
Then too, there is the point that all those involved in the Bush years of horror, Blair and Howard and their cronies included, are targets for as long as they live, and if the US, UK and Australia will do nothing, then there is the long established precedence of ‘snatching’ the accused and spiriting them off for trial.
The final option if nothing is done, is for those offended against to seek personal revenge. A bullet in the head is not as good/satisfying as having them tried and declared murderous scum, before they are dragged begging and screaming to the scaffold, but a little satisfaction is vastly better than none.
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» RE: Shoot your own dogs, or others will
Posted by: james108
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Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 11, 2009 5:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i went out way uptown here on 83rd street and 1st avenue at 1:30pm, when we were already starting to list the blatant outpoints in the official story. stepping outside our building, the air hit me like a wall. approaching 1st avenue i saw that it was a mournful parade of people as far as the eye could see. people were out with their children, babies in carriages, trying to reassure them that all was okay, 'the government has it under control.'
two nights later i went out and there was the crystalline plume which would fow across the region for weeks. for the first time in my life, i projectile vomited into the gutter with no warning. two nights later the same thing happened. by the following day, i was very intestinally ill, couldn't hold anything either up or down. on 9/21 i almost died, no money or insurance coverage. a friend may have saved my life by telling my wife to get me some liquid activated charcoal, a great detoxifier.
some months later i happened to see a column by jimmy breslin who, it turned out, had alaso gotten just the malady i had right after 911. he'd looked into it and learned that at least 140,000 other new yorkers had gone to doctor or hospital with the same illness. like me, he had seen nothing at all in the mainstream media covering this.
if that were the only dereliction of duty by the usg on that day, it would've been enough to warrant charges of treason by so deliberately endangering public safety.
but as is soooo apparent, the suppression of authentic inquiry into 911 has been blanket, demeaning us as 'conspiracy theorists.'
my wife and i have always thought of 911 as 'reichstag fire II' and it continues to date, complete with torture chambers, camps, wars, surveillance, secrecy. the only thing missing is the swastikas.
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» RE: The only thing missing is the swastikas
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Air quality
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Mass murder is the word I would use for it
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Pentagon, it was a drone
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Pentagon, it was a drone
Posted by: kellysgarden
» Waterboard Silverstein
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein
Posted by: Krotos
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Posted by: willymack on Apr 12, 2009 9:10 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Here's the deal
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Here's the deal - Maybe Not?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: maxsmart on Apr 12, 2009 11:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And with the entire Cold War history we have I find it difficult to believe it was all mostly low tech tortured, I think the Abu Graib pictures kind of give an inkling of the sado-masochistic psycho-sexual tortures that might be more difficult to discern the scars from.
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» RE: sado-masochistic psycho-sexual tortures
Posted by: Sister_Lauren
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Posted by: melpol on Apr 12, 2009 12:49 PM
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» RE: Silenced Victims.
Posted by: mrcentrist
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Posted by: sleepingdog on Apr 12, 2009 5:17 PM
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Posted by: mrcentrist on Apr 12, 2009 6:25 PM
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Posted by: Collielady on Apr 12, 2009 10:00 PM
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Posted by: cashelboylo on Apr 14, 2009 2:46 AM
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Medical professionals have carried out this same role since the invention of the racket called Medicine.
The Spanish Inquisition had "Doctors" in attendance -- and many of the drivers of the tortures and murders were so-called "Doctors of the Church."
A major secret agenda of "Witch Trials" including those of Salem, Massachusetts, has always been the elimination of "Old Wives" (midwives) for the benefit of medical "doctors."
And the Most Monstrous Monsters of the Third Reich were Doctors like Mengele. The SS provided the Guards, the Medical Profession provided the Torturer-Murderers.
And most of the Human Spare Parts racket is organized and carried out by "Doctors."
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Posted by: Little Bad Wolf on Apr 15, 2009 8:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America has set a terrible example of abuse for the rest of the world, and now has no grounds for complaint if Americans are treated as we have treated others. We have especially endangered our military by our foolishness. No soldier, private or general, can expect civilised conditions, nor can the International Red Cross be expected to protect our people when we are flagrant abusers of international standards and protections. We have broken faith with our children, volunteers on whom we depend for protection.
Rather than carrying freedom's torch we have carried the torturer's brand to the rest of the world. Now America has to win back its Place in the world and its seat at the table of nations. It is not up to the Spanish to prosecute our false leaders. We must do it ourselves to start the healing process.
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Posted by: metamind on Apr 16, 2009 2:50 AM
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The Obama administration has clearly stated it believes the myth of Osama bin Laden and his gang of terrorists. If 9-11 was a creation of some agency or rogue elements within our own government, then the foreign policy of the U.S. is currently founded on a false premise.
That's not a "little matter" to be swept under the rug. It'a s MAJOR DEAL which needs to be exposed.
It means we have to admit we were "conned" by someone or some organization. It means that the true conspiracy is different than the one we allege to be operated by Osama bin Laden.
It means we "got it wrong."
There is sufficient cause for a thorough investigation of everything connected with 9-11. The fact that the Democrats and President Obama seem disinterested in this fact should concern us all greatly.
Set the truth free and the truth will set us free. Investigate 9-11 correctly, completely and conclusively.
Steve Moyer
http://stevemoyer.us
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Posted by: johngary on Apr 16, 2009 8:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you recall, the first count against every Nazi leader was UNPROVOKED WAR!!
Recall that was the major crime against humanity.
The crime against humanity we should be looking at is the unprovoked war against Iraq!
Based on our adoption of the UN Charter and the Nuremberg Convention, we accepted as a matter of criminal law that any unprovoked war would be a criminal act and a crime against humanity.
But now this distraction. WHY? Perhaps not only the Bush Administration people feel guilty but also quite a few Senators.
So the criminals go free and we will probably round up a few lower echelon CIA agents, put them in jail and assuage our conscience!
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Posted by: rtpricetag on Apr 17, 2009 4:27 PM
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This nation WILL NOT return to a Constitutional-Gov of Law until every one of these criminals and retards are brought to justice, what terms they get is up to the Court's and Justice. However we will never become a decent nation and true Democracy again until the above justice is fulfilled.
By the way, the Presidents own private-military answering directly to the President, called the Covert CIA Paramilitary needs end IMMEDIATELY or sooner.
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Posted by: Urban Myth #3 on Apr 18, 2009 7:20 PM
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Parodies of freedom are in no-one's interest.
Saddam, for all his crimes, was strung up by an anonymous lynch Mob - unacceptable, if people who commit the same crimes walk.
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