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Rights and Liberties

'These People Fear Prosecution': Why Bush's CIA Team Should Worry About Its Dark Embrace of Torture

By Liliana Segura, AlterNet. Posted April 11, 2009.


The New Yorker's Jane Mayer discusses the fallout from the Red Cross' shocking report on CIA torture and its serious legal implications.
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On the night of April 6, a long-secret document was published -- in its entirety for the first time -- that provided a clear, stark look at the CIA torture program carried out by the Bush administration.

Dated Feb. 14, 2007, the 41-page report describes in harrowing detail the "ill treatment" of 14 "high-value" detainees in U.S. custody, as recounted by the prisoners in interviews with the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Besides listing the various kinds of harsh interrogation tactics undertaken by the CIA -- among them "suffocation by water," "prolonged stress standing," "beatings by use of a collar," "confinement in a box," "prolonged nudity," "threats," "forced shaving" and other methods -- the report reveals the disturbing role of medical professionals in the torture of suspects, which included using doctors' equipment to monitor their health, even as torture was carried out.

Just as Americans have known about Bush-era torture for years, lawyers and human rights activists have long known about the ICRC report and its contents. Both are due in large part to the work of journalists and their sources, who have brought to light the many post-9/11 abuses committed in the name of counterterrorism.

In February 2005, Jane Mayer of the New Yorker magazine published a story called "Outsourcing Torture: The Secret History of America's 'Extraordinary Rendition' Program," which reported in intricate detail the sordid mechanisms of the Bush administration's kidnap-and-torture program -- a practice so violent and dramatic that it inspired a major Hollywood film a few years later.

As Mayer wrote at the time, however, "Rendition is just one element of the administration's new paradigm."

The CIA itself is holding dozens of 'high value' terrorist suspects outside of the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., in addition to the estimated 550 detainees in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The administration confirmed the identities of at least 10 of these suspects to the 9/11 Commission -- including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a top al-Qaida operative … -- but refused to allow commission members to interview the men, and would not say where they were being held. Reports have suggested that CIA prisons are being operated in Thailand, Qatar and Afghanistan, among other countries. At the request of the CIA, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld personally ordered that a prisoner in Iraq be hidden from Red Cross officials for several months, and Army Gen. Paul Kern told Congress that the CIA may have hidden up to a hundred detainees."

Among the revelations of the ICRC report is that the CIA did indeed hide prisoners from the Red Cross.

Mayer has been a staff writer at the New Yorker since 1995. In the years after 9/11, her investigative articles have been critical to piecing together the story of how the United States became a country that tortures in the name of the so-called "war on terror."

Mayer was recently awarded the Ron Ridenhour Prize for her book, The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How The War on Terror Turned Into a War on American Ideals (Doubleday). Co-sponsored by The Nation Institute and the Fertel Foundation, the Ridenhour prize honors journalists and whistle-blowers whose work has helped to "protect the public interest, promote social justice or illuminate a more just vision of society." Mayer will be honored alongside other winners of the Ridenhour prize on April 16 at the National Press Club in Washington.

AlterNet's Rights & Liberties Editor Liliana Segura spoke to Mayer over the phone from New York, the morning after the release of the ICRC report.

***

Liliana Segura: Last night, the full ICRC report was posted online, detailing the torture at the CIA black sites. Of course, you've been writing for a long time about this; how did you first come to know about the report, and what's the significance of it coming out now, especially with everything it reveals about medical professionals being involved in torture?

Jane Mayer: Well, there are certain confidential source issues that cover how I first came to know about it, but I can say that when I did finally talk to people who were familiar with what was in it -- which was more than a year ago at this point -- what I was hearing was so startling that it just completely stopped me dead in my tracks.

Basically, what I was hearing was that there was a report that was by this independent authority -- the ICRC, which is not a political entity in any way. It's a very cautious group and has tremendous credibility -- saying that there was an actual program of torture that was implemented by the U.S. government, and that the government had been warned that what it was doing was breaking the law.


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See more stories tagged with: cia, torture, al qaeda, dick cheney, bush administration, guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, barack obama, rendition, department of justice, khalid sheikh mohammed, waterboarding, secret prisons, black sites, ron ridenhour, jane mayer, the dark side, icrc report, cia torture, ridenhour prize

Liliana Segura is an AlterNet staff writer and editor of AlterNet's Rights & Liberties Special Coverage.

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So what the(insert expletive here) are we going to DO about this?
Posted by: Woodpecker on Apr 11, 2009 1:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So what is the Obama team going to DO about this-or does it have to rely on Spain's Judge Baltazar Garzon to save its ass on this issue???


Terry

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» Personally Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Personally Posted by: peacefullaim1
» The answer is "Nothing". Posted by: mrcentrist
But this stuff just doesn't get a grip on the American people. 9/11 truth would !
Posted by: pfgetty on Apr 11, 2009 3:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has been years since the shock of knowledge of Abu Graib torture and torture at Guantanamo and the rest has hit the American people. Journalists have swarmed over the issue. And still the American people are, well, pretty much ho hum about it all.
The reason? I think it is partly because Americans generally do not feel a lot of compassion for people who would have been part of a plan to attack us on 9/11. As long as the official story is allowed to remain as the only story, then Americans feel that those being tortured deserve what they get. The excuse has been that if torture can bring us some insight into al Qaeda, then go for it. Not my morality, but it seems to be the American people's, and it doesn't seem to change.
AND, I think the American people haven't seen anything proving that Bush ordered the WORST of the torture, the really horrible painful deadly torture that people traditionally have thought of when the word torture is used.
In any case, this stuff just isn't getting traction.
What WOULD get traction is exposing the lies of 9/11. Once brought to the American people, the obvious lies of 9/11 would soon bring on a hailstorm of disgust and eventually a criminal trial and prosecution. The evidence is there, piles of it, with so many issues about that day. Just read one book by David Ray Griffin, like Debunking the Debunking, and it becomes obvious that AT LEAST we should pursue the truth about 9/11 and re-investigate.
But it takes journalists being brave and exposing all they can, following the threads of evidence and contradictions, and that will lead to the awareness needed in the public.
As this article just stated:

Just as Americans have known about Bush-era torture for years, lawyers and human rights activists have long known about the ICRC report and its contents. Both are due in large part to the work of journalists and the sources who have brought to light the many post-9/11 abuses committed in the name of counterterrorism.

Do the same for 9/11, and the results will not be ho hum.

For some reason, American journalists will not touch this subject, and if they do they feel the need to mock 9/11 truth, like Joshua Holland did. Alternet just cannot find it in itself to simply bring out the many facts that prove 9/11 was an inside job. The rest of the alternative media is the same.

We don't know why. They won't tell us. Seven and a half years, no responsible journalism in this, the biggest story of all time.

Shame on American journalists. Our future has been dimmed greatly by their decision to purposely ignore the subject.

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» RE: Thank you Jim Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Sheer Cowardice and Hypocrisy
Posted by: DrBrian on Apr 11, 2009 4:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Leon Panetta, full of pseudo-gravitas, claims that the opinions of Yoo, Bybee et al. outweigh federal statutes, case law and international treaties, despite the DOJ's own Inspector General's characterization of them as unprofessional and wrong. According to him, CIA goons shouldn't be prosecuted because they didn't know they were breaking the law. It's hard to understand why so many were rushing out to purchase private legal insurance and how they managed to miss the debate in the media.

Obama tells us he's too busy indebting our children's and grandchildren's generations for trillions to enrich and protect his avaricious Wall Street benefactor swindlers and escalating the Afghan war to deal with the issue.

If any crimes should be punished, it's war crimes. These are not victimless crimes like drug possession, nor is the damage limited to those killed under torture or physically or psychologically injured. The reputation of the US has been severely compromised, resulting in the estrangement of our allies and, according to military and intelligence sources, a recruiting boon for terrorists.

Failing to punish the perpetrators sends a loud and clear message to the Muslim world that the US does not value their lives and rights; B. Hussain Obama's charm offensives cannot offset the damage of his accessory after the fact status in obstructing justice.

All of the arguments against prosecution are special pleading which would infuriate conservatives if voiced in reference to any other offenses or groups of criminals.

If Obama refuses to prosecute or extradite accused war criminals, the US should abandon its bid for a UN human rights panel seat, stop producing human rights reports on other countries, and sit in ignominious silence as a member of the rogues' gallery with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Libya and, yes, Israel.

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» RE: Sheer Cowardice and Hypocrisy Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Sheer Cowardice and Hypocrisy Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» Buying private legal insurance Posted by: leighsure
» Another Lame Excuse Posted by: DrBrian
I want to thank Jane and Liliana for covering the issue
Posted by: Sister_Lauren on Apr 11, 2009 4:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think it would be getting covered if it were not for you two. Stories like this make me feel more hopeful. I think if we people who care organize, we can overwhelm the secret keepers and force them into openness.

I posted links yesterday to Kay Griggs talking about her husband. To me it all rings true.

My father was a snatch and grab victim on his 18th birthday towards the end of WWII. Soldiers came right into his house and took him out of bed and put him in the military.

As a sickly boy with homosexual tendencies he HATED the military.

He did tell me though about how the brass liked him and wanted him to be an officer. He thought he would be fragged or shot in the back.

I can see now what they had in mind. My father was a VERY handsome man. I bet if he wasn't such a pacifist, he could have been a military officer! (I am so glad he wasn't.)

After the military he went into chemistry and worked for Dow Chemical, finally ending up doing audio/visual which he dearly loved doing, but died of AIDS.

I was heart broken.

After I learned of my fathers homosexuality, I always wondered why he was treated so nicely by his company.

Here I was hearing gay men were discriminated against, but my dad's situation seemed in fact to be quite the opposite. They cut him a lot of slack at Dow, a surprising amount. I always wondered why. I don't wonder anymore. Now I understand the corporate mindset there.


I think my husband was a victim of the childhood 'training' Kay Griggs talks about, a secret it took me 30 years to even get a clue. I have several now. Lots.

Last night I called the police again.

I wanted the rape victim's hotline. How do I know that isn't the CIA too? I don't, but at least she acknowledged that what I went through was torture.

No one else has ever done that before.


This CIA disease is a lot bigger then just about anyone realizes. It is huge.

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» Sister_Lauren Who Are You? Posted by: AlteredStates
» RE: Sister Lauren Who Are You? Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Hey, Prez, still think the Bushies were harmless?
Posted by: peterjkraus on Apr 11, 2009 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So what are we going to do about it? Was Nuremberg just victors' revenge, as Nazis have claimed since 1946? Or will we see justice done, for the victims (and, in a larger sense, we're all victims here) and for the sake of truth? Or will the Big Lie continue? The ball, Mr. President, is in your court. Even Harry S. Truman knew the buck stops right there in the Oval Office, and Harry didn't know too much. So come on, unleash Mr. Holder, who is good at this stuff, give yourself a leading slot in the pantheon of American presidents and give us justice.

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» There are two Big Lies Posted by: Beck
Don't Hold Your Breath
Posted by: shill on Apr 11, 2009 5:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you know what is going to happen with all of this? Absolutely NOTHING, that's what!

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» RE: Don't Hold Your Breath Posted by: Basenjis
Obama's Not Going to Do It
Posted by: Urstrly on Apr 11, 2009 6:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems to me that if we wait for the president to go after Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice, nothing's going to happen. He seems to think it's enough to get things back on track without the distraction of stirring up the right.

Of course, Democrats warned Bush about al Qaeda. The evidence was there when they stepped into office, and while I don't believe they had a hand in it (as many people do), they certainly ignored the threat. For that, I think we can blame C. Rice. Not to mention that they spirited the Saudis out of the country on a day when all other air traffic was frozen. Having screwed up, they over-reacted. Or at least that's how I read it, and, of course, that's not how they would spin it if we get attacked.

So my hope is that the International Court, which Bush/Cheney were at pains to ignore,will bring charges and Obama will not stand in the way. There's plenty of evidence.

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» RE: Obama is waiting to do it Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Saint Molly Ivans
Posted by: wint on Apr 11, 2009 6:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Saint Molly asked right before her death "What kind of country do you want?" We all have to ask that question and make sure our children ask it too. The current administration needs to go after all---all---all every last one of the slime balls that would do that to a helpless person no matter what they thought of them. This is not humanity this is inhumane and the people must be brought to justice. This is not something that can be negotiated away but must be brought to the fore with all the parties being represented and lay it out for all to see. This must not ever happen again under any circumstance and I don't care about the ticking bomb b------t. That is not and never has been an excuse to act less than human. We are either humans or we are the animals that slither and slide through the grass to gather it's prey.

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» RE: Saint Molly Ivans Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Saint Molly Ivans Posted by: wint
COLLUSION OF DOJ WITH THE JUDICIAL BRANCH
Posted by: IsidoroRDL on Apr 11, 2009 6:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we all recall, Chief Justice John Marshall in Marbury v. Madison, 137, (1803), confirming that impartial judicial review is a constitutional imperative when pointing out certain fundamental principles of our constitutional system: first, that the people had united to establish a limited government; second, that they organized it into three departments and assigned certain powers to each, while at the same time setting limits to the exercise of those powers; and, third, these limits were expressed in a written constitution, which would be a useless document “if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained.” Id. at 140.

Consequently, the Constitution is the “a superior paramount law,” on the limits on government power which may not be changed by either executive, legislation or judicial fiat. These prohibitions and restrictions on government power is within or outside of the United States

As the noted scholar Oliver P. Field, we as a people has a historical concern over excessive authority asserted by either a tyrannical executive, legislative, or judicial branch in violation of the rights of all individuals protected by the Constitution. Thus, we as a people came regard the access to an impartial court as the ultimate guardians of individual rights. Any act that invaded these rights and limits on the government power was to be judged unconstitutional and treated as though it never existed.

However, in response to both the Civil Rights Acts of the 1960's and Watergate legislation of the 1970's, under both Republic and Democratic Administrations, there has been a collusion by the Executive Branch (DOJ) and the Judicial Branch during the past 34 years under Chief Justices Burger, Rehnquist, and now Roberts, to do away with restrictions and prohibitions on government power by usurping legislative authority through abusing power delegated by Congress under the Rules Enabling Act and the Judicial Conference Act, so to develop and implement policies to affecting all individuals-citizen and non citizen alike:

● limiting access to an impartial courts;
● do away with independent practitioners of the courts abuse of power;
● abuse the discretion of summary judgement so deny the right to jury trials;
● to minimize the fundamental rights protected by the Constitution;
● hold that outside of the US there are no Constitutional restrictions on government power; and,
● hold that both the Executive and Judicial Branch are absolutely immune from a private citizens suit for either criminal or tortious acts.

The Rule of Law has now become a political slogan and not a reality based on judicial. Thus, the Judicial Branch and Executive Branch have unilaterally declared themselves no longer accountable for malfeasance fiat (see, http://www.liamsdad.org/others/isidoro.shtml and http://home.earthlink.net/~isidoror).

As Thomas Jefferson foretold: "[t]he germ of destruction of our nation is in the power of the judiciary, an irresponsible body - working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall render powerless the checks of one branch over the other and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated."

Isidoro Rodriguez, Esq.
Member of the Bar of the U.S. Supreme Court
since September 11, 1992

7924Payton Forest Trail
Annandale, Virginia 22003-1560
Telephone: 571.423.5066
E-Mail: isidoror@EarthLink.net

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» Mukasey laughs in our face Posted by: weathered
The real question is "Who runs the nation?"
Posted by: TGFaull on Apr 11, 2009 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Clearly, the CIA and the covert community, in conjunction with big business, runs the nation. It looks like the president and the congress are given critical intelligence on a "need to know" basis, with the covert community deciding the who and when of the "need to know".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WSGwnz7XpY&feature=related

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» RE: They wanted chaos Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Resurrection...
Posted by: jmndodge on Apr 11, 2009 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With Easter just around the corner, my thoughts turn to Easter, when out of the despair of death resurrection breaks out into new life. It appears that we are content to attempt to rebuild America with band aids, when new life will not break out with its vitality and strength until we admit the death of the old life. For this to take place, those involved in torturer must be held accountable. Then when the criminal element which has exercised its power at home and abroad, is convicted and their influence buried, then out of the despair of our national embarrassment and grief at our incredible failure to uphold the moral values we claim, a resurrection of new life and freedom can be born. Let's do it now. many of us are tired of living on the hospice unit and doing nothing hoping things will magically get better.

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» RE: esurrection... Posted by: weathered
» Ditto!!!!!! Posted by: Prophit
Obama has not ended torture
Posted by: leafsong1 on Apr 11, 2009 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At best, Obama has made it clear that torturing is only legal when the POTUS explicitly or implicitly authorizes it. Consequently, Obama has legitimized torture and enshrined it permanently as a part of the American way of war. Considering this fact, it should surprise nobody to learn that the Obama Administration is actually torturing people at this moment. Nothing in Obama's behavior so far makes that possibility unlikely. They fear prosecution? Hah! I wish.

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» RE: Isn't that what Bush said, too? Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: What did you expect Posted by: Sister_Lauren
There will be prosecutions! Just maybe not here.
Posted by: Quannah on Apr 11, 2009 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On March 28, a Spanish judge (the same judge who indicted former Chilean President Augusto Pinochet for torture) began a criminal inquiry into high-level Bush Junta officials' complicity and ordering of torture.

The inquiry is targeting six attorneys responsible for devising the legal architecture that allowed torture to be official US policy. Those six are Office of Legal Counsel lawyers John Yoo and Jay Bybee, White House lawyers Alberto Gonzales and David Addington, and Defense Department lawyers Douglas Feith and William Haynes.

The complaint that initiated the investigation alleges that these lawyers "participated actively and decisively in the creation, approval and execution of a judicial framework that allowed for the deprivation of fundamental rights of a large number of prisoners, the implementation of new interrogation techniques including torture, the legal cover for the treatment of those prisoners, the protection of the people who participated in illegal tortures and, above all, the establishment of impunity for all the government workers, military personnel, doctors and others who participated in the detention centre at Guantanamo."

Spain isn't the only country conducting a criminal investigation. On March 26, Britain's attorney general, Patricia Scotland, sent out an announcement that she was launching a criminal investigation into allegations that British security officials were complicit in the torture of Binyam Mohamed, a British resident captured by US officials in Pakistan and rendered to Morocco and Afghanistan before being taken to Guantanamo.

Europeans are investigating this on the premise that TORTURE IS NEVER JUSTIFIED. And that any complicity in it warrants inquiry and punishment.

Both Spanish and British law, as well as American law, recognizes universal jurisdiction for crimes of torture, meaning that torturers can be prosecuted anywhere, regardless of where they committed their crimes. But, secondly, some of those held at Guantanamo were Spanish and British citizens.

If we won't do it, others will.

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» Vermont took a very Posted by: weathered
» RE: Vermont took a very Posted by: left_witch
» RE: Vermont took a very Posted by: weathered
Our Foreign Correspondants are in Grave danger
Posted by: Purple Girl on Apr 11, 2009 9:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are Three woman who may bear the brunt of the Bush Torture. One in Iran and two in N.Korea. What is even more alarming than the Fact Bush legitimized such treatment, these two cultures do not hold women in high regard to begin with. So the torture or execution for 'spying' will have little reaction from their own people.
Let's be honest, even though We are not the epitome in Womens rights- we are centuries ahead of both these two. Had it come out we had tortured female prisoners- there would have been a greater outrage.
When a husband kills his wife we want to see him fry.But when it's an "honor Killing" we condemn the entire community.And Frankly to some extent Rightly So.Many times these communities refuse to help police.Not only because they don't want to get involved (excuse of Americans), but because in their ideology dicates a sacred 'law' was broken and 'justice' was served. The Girl had Disgraced her family, and thus the community by particiapting in some activity outside their perameters of acceptablity.
what keep these incidence of 'Honor Killings' in check in the States is the knowledge the 'outer' communities will hold their community accountable- so it happens less frequently.
Now consider the entire society not only looks away- but knows there are in communal agreement,thus no adverse reprecussions. The incidences increase and are seen as legitmate.
These Two cultures not only consider Women second class citizens, but possessions and disposable at that (Vietnamese sent daughters out to 'sweep' for land mines, because they were not as valuable as the sons).
this is why Womens Rights inparticular, have been one of the hardest Human rights issues to crack.
But lets not pat ourselves on the back to quickly- we have proven there are Long held Western Ideologies which leant their 'blessing' to this global practice and concepts,(ei Womens reproductive rights are still up for Debate- but Males never comes up in discussion or legislation.If my uterus is 'on the table', so should be Testicles)
so Bush's torture not only endangered innocent people- they have further jeporadized Womens lives. These cultures might think Twice about a mans life- but little about the value of a womans life. These Ladies only hope is that these two cultures (Gov't) realize, that even though women are still not 'equals' in our society, their torture and murders will provoke a far more dangerous gutteral response.Hell even hardened criminals in our prisons will threaten the life of a Rapist.Reason "Yo Momma" comments can get you beat up.Actually a facinating Irony about our Culture 'values'. The battle between Male machismo and dominance vs Chivalry. He'll beat the hell out of his wife- but laying a hand on his mother, sister or Daughter could get you killed.I guess we can at least claim the American male is a Work in progress.
It will Take not just an outcry from Women's Group to assure these Womens welbeingand Return- but harsh reactions from Males. We need the Boys to go to bat for these ladies. Hillary will not be regarded as Authorative enough.We need the boys in uniforms with the most Medal to show them what Western Chivalry means.They will understand that if our males are willing to go to such lengths to free 'mere' females- they will certainly do the same for any males.Which may negate such situations in the future.

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» RE: Irony about our Culture 'values' Posted by: Sister_Lauren
JT Barrie
Posted by: rimchamp77 on Apr 11, 2009 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem lies with abusive policies like drug prohibition and war on dissent that target people with next to no political or economic power. This attracts sadistic bullies to agencies that enforce these policies as they are attract to other gangs. As long as we have those policies in effect people will be abused. While any and all punitive measures should start at the top they will be meaningless if we continue to have policies that attract such anti social people into government service.

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They absolutly should fear prosecution
Posted by: EinMD on Apr 11, 2009 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you do something you know is illegal, immoral, unethical or just plain evil, even if the President, or Jesus himself told you it was ok it's still YOUR responsibility for YOUR actions. So if you tortured somebody, your ass should be going to prison.

We didn't accept "I was just following orders" from Adolf Eichmann and we should absolutely not accept it from the CIA either.

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A positive step we can take
Posted by: Sister_Lauren on Apr 11, 2009 10:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
BulldogRedemer
Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on Apr 11, 2009 10:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is all so much crap! "Suffocation by water," "prolonged stress standing," "beatings by use of a collar," "confinement in a box," "prolonged nudity," "threats," "forced shaving”. Only the first might ever qualify as torture by historical standards. Talk to the North Vietnamese, the KGB or WWII Japanese about what real torture is about. And do not even go to the college fraternity prank type "torture" displayed at Abu Graib. And the detainees at Gitmo have never had better living condition and health care in their lives, other than not having the freedom to commit terrorist murders. Our government, whose primary role is to protect us, has stated that hundreds, maybe thousands, of American lives were saved by the information gathering methods used.

People, with their heads in the sand, that are pushing for criminal action against the Bush administration, ignore the fact that the Bush administration demonstratedly kept us safe from further homeland attacks. Such action is reminiscent of third world "banana republics" activity after a regime change. These people are either interested in continuing to divide this nation to the point where we will never heal, or are suffering from the "Bush Derangement Syndrome”. The former should themselves be investigated by the Justice Department, and the latter should get professional psychiatric help.

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» RE: BulldogRedemer Posted by: left_witch
BulldogRedemer
Posted by: BulldogRedeemer on Apr 11, 2009 11:13 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The International Red Cross, much like the Nobel Prize Committee and unlike the American Red Cross, has become an organization that supports a left wing political agenda. This includes anti-Americanism. As such, whatever they report should be viewed with a critical eye as to their fact spinning agenda, and for fairness and honesty.

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» RE: BulldogRedemer Posted by: Quannah
» RE: BulldogRedemer Posted by: tazdelaney
» RE: BulldogRedemer - pervert Posted by: GuitarBill
"What would it take for that to happen? It would take Obama"
Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 11, 2009 11:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And then she goes on to say that he doesn't want to do it.

In fact, the new JOD has actively supported, even extended, Bushco positions on "official secrets" and other, related "security" issues (remembering that "security" always really means officials' PERSONAL security.)

So Mayers' later excuse for Obama non-performance on this issue, that they're overwhelmed and haven't gotten to it, doesn't quite wash.

And I noticed something surprising: out of 38 comments, not a single Obama defender has chimed in. Do you suppose they are finally ashamed? I mean, we're talking about TORTURE. Even they must have their boundaries.

(Republicans evidently don't, witness "Bulldog Redeemer". But don't respond to him.)

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911, anthrax, mega money on war contracts, was all homegrown
Posted by: LTBROWN on Apr 11, 2009 11:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to suck the brain right out of a lot of scared @ss Americans. When you're afraid, you lossen the grip on your wallet. Wrap your mind around that, first. Then asked yourself again, what were these men being tortured to prevent? What are they not suppose to talk about?[ as oppose to you thinking they are being tortured to tell something. Not! It's to NOT TELL SOMETHING.]
How did the list of names get compiled? Who did they know or what do they know? Terrorist plots my @ss. Someone doesn't want their NAME AND THEIR part in the raping and killing of our country, brought forth. Now, Will any of us be alive to hear and examine the REAL TRUTH? I DOUBT IT.

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Another Aspect
Posted by: oregoncharles on Apr 11, 2009 12:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Check out: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/11-8.

That's Glenn Greenwald on Obama's DOJ supporting Bagram as a permanent extra-legal black hole for "renditioned" prisoners. Even a right-wing judge didn't buy it.

Read it and weep. Bagram, you remember, was and is one of the chief American torture centers.

Still a Democrat?

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» RE: Still a Democrat Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» Yes Posted by: Beck
Truelass
Posted by: Truelass on Apr 11, 2009 12:28 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The use of torture on the victims of US paranoia is not new, whether it be by the CIA, the Military or the civil prison sytem it is an acceptable part of our culture. Disgusting and disgraceful and inhumane, of course it is but face up to it the United States ranks very low in Human Rights and treatment of incarcerated humans by the standards of other countries. No one is going to jail for this mistreatment so stop kidding yourselves.

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» RE: Truelass Posted by: Truelass
» RE: I don't think it is acceptable Posted by: Sister_Lauren
does anyone think that torture was done to get information?
Posted by: luzmejor on Apr 11, 2009 1:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am convinced that it was simply a technique to terrorize and pacify Iraqis so that they would cooperate in the organized theft of their nation.

Also, if perhaps a victim said something/anything that could be used as marginally credible propaganda, they would have enjoyed that means of fooling American citizens, too.

Anyone involved in these prisons could be prosecuted unless they were cooperating to bring to justice the planners and executors of those wholesale kidnappings, bribery, imprisonment and torture.

"By their works ye shall know them."

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bluebama II
Posted by: bluebama II on Apr 11, 2009 3:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Judicial action is not the only remedy to war crimes. The GOP is in ruins because of their war crimes, ie. chemically bombing two Fallujah hospitals and a first aid station in Dec 06 to drive away the physicians and then occupying them to control the civilian body count never released to the Iraqi Nationals or the world. Bombing a hospital is a war crime and then occupying it is another war crime. I know what I'm talking about. Whether or not Republican oil thieves are lynched for war crimes, their party is being dismantled from public discontent. How does the planned and orchestrated privatization of the second largest oil reserve on the planet soothe your tortured peapickin soul?

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» RE: Greens and Libertarians Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: Greens and Libertarians Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Greens and Libertarians Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: bluebama II Posted by: james108
» RE: bluebama II Posted by: Sister_Lauren
obama keeps the rendition program
Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 11, 2009 4:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
something which. although it was reported clearly enough, hasn't gotten much attention is that obama is on record as continuing the CIA extraordinary rendition program. biden was quoted as saying that this is a necessary tool 'against the bad guys." obama's kept gates as secy of DoD, kept blair who wrote the torture 'justification' papers for CIA on as head of 'counterterrorism'after failing to get him named director of CIA itself. obama promoted petraeus to go mass-murder afghanis after his 'success' in iraq. obama is maintaining all the bush-cheney surveillance and protecting the telecoms against prosecution. the obama administration actually threatened england with a cutoff of shared intelligence information if they allowed the disclosure of tortures applied to one of their citizens! obama has blocked any charging of bush admin personnel for their crimes against humanity because he is already committing his own war crimes, expanding the wars in afghanistan and into pakistan. for all his puffery about having been against the iraq war; obama's continuing it to the end of 2010 and then leaving 50,000 troops plus mercenaries like blackwater (no 'xe') to maintain the oil colony ad infinitum. by comparison, eisenhower campaigned saying that the korean war was illegal and wrongheaded; then got the military out of there in 2 months flat. so this is obamabush. 911 as 'reichstag fire II' continues according to plan as can be read in the american enterprise institute's notorious 'project for the new american century,'(PNAC).

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» RE: necessary tool Posted by: Sister_Lauren
Shoot your own dogs, or others will
Posted by: phindrup on Apr 11, 2009 5:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It may well be that the US, Obama, whoever will do nothing about the horrors that the US has been responsible for over the past many years — Bush and his cronies were only different in the fact that they became so bloody arrogant that they believed that they could behave this way openly, and that there would be no comeback.

As the financial mess begins to sort itself out, the US may find that there are those where will not trade with them. Perhaps will not allow any airline that services the US to overfly their countries.

Then too, there is the point that all those involved in the Bush years of horror, Blair and Howard and their cronies included, are targets for as long as they live, and if the US, UK and Australia will do nothing, then there is the long established precedence of ‘snatching’ the accused and spiriting them off for trial.

The final option if nothing is done, is for those offended against to seek personal revenge. A bullet in the head is not as good/satisfying as having them tried and declared murderous scum, before they are dragged begging and screaming to the scaffold, but a little satisfaction is vastly better than none.

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'the air is safe'
Posted by: tazdelaney on Apr 11, 2009 5:38 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
wife and i live in NYC where we were on 911. at 11:30 we heard that EPA, which surely knew the air was toxic enough to kill and andanger the health and life-expectancy of those breathing it, announced that 'the air is safe.' that's about the level of truth from the government about that whole package.

i went out way uptown here on 83rd street and 1st avenue at 1:30pm, when we were already starting to list the blatant outpoints in the official story. stepping outside our building, the air hit me like a wall. approaching 1st avenue i saw that it was a mournful parade of people as far as the eye could see. people were out with their children, babies in carriages, trying to reassure them that all was okay, 'the government has it under control.'

two nights later i went out and there was the crystalline plume which would fow across the region for weeks. for the first time in my life, i projectile vomited into the gutter with no warning. two nights later the same thing happened. by the following day, i was very intestinally ill, couldn't hold anything either up or down. on 9/21 i almost died, no money or insurance coverage. a friend may have saved my life by telling my wife to get me some liquid activated charcoal, a great detoxifier.

some months later i happened to see a column by jimmy breslin who, it turned out, had alaso gotten just the malady i had right after 911. he'd looked into it and learned that at least 140,000 other new yorkers had gone to doctor or hospital with the same illness. like me, he had seen nothing at all in the mainstream media covering this.

if that were the only dereliction of duty by the usg on that day, it would've been enough to warrant charges of treason by so deliberately endangering public safety.

but as is soooo apparent, the suppression of authentic inquiry into 911 has been blanket, demeaning us as 'conspiracy theorists.'

my wife and i have always thought of 911 as 'reichstag fire II' and it continues to date, complete with torture chambers, camps, wars, surveillance, secrecy. the only thing missing is the swastikas.

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» RE: Air quality Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Pentagon, it was a drone Posted by: Sister_Lauren
» RE: Pentagon, it was a drone Posted by: kellysgarden
» Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: weathered
» RE: Waterboard Silverstein Posted by: Krotos
Here's the deal
Posted by: willymack on Apr 12, 2009 9:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the reason that nothing is likely to be done to punish the bushies is that there isn't sufficient public support for it. Sites like this one are visited by those with good educations and a sense of propriety and morals regarding our governing bodies. Sad to say, we represent a small minority of Americans, most of whom wouldn't feel stirred to ANY action unless they were being dragged out of their houses or spirited off to jail. They react EMOTIONALLY to things such as gay rights, gun issues, NASCAR, and other superficial crap, and are almost always on the wrong side of human rights issues. There is NO intellectual activity going on there, in fact, most of us despise true intellectuals. Another factor in this is the fact that so many of us worship those in power as some kind of super-beings, incapable of error or wrongdoing. This hero worship is expertly reinforced through the popular media,which is controlled by what I call the "shadow people", powerful crooks who stay hidden from public view, and who possess NO moral scruples or concern for the public good. I think the Obama administration truly (perhaps correctly) believes that one sure way to become a one-term Presidency is to prosecute the bushies. Too many Americans are malleable, uninformed, and easily manipulated by "wedge" issues, and incapable of focusing on what's really important to their well-being.

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» RE: Here's the deal Posted by: Sister_Lauren
and who knows what else
Posted by: maxsmart on Apr 12, 2009 11:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Somehow I have this feeling that when Cheney took the gloves off it wasn't limited to just some secret overseas programs and since the CIA has secret program here who knows what is going on. I wouldn't be surprised if new high tech surveillance and psychological techniques have been released to enforcement agencies in general in this country without legal authorization. As we know once the gloves come off and the programs are secret it might be hard to put them back on again and if you think it is just suspected terrorist you might be surprised one day to find out it also includes you.
And with the entire Cold War history we have I find it difficult to believe it was all mostly low tech tortured, I think the Abu Graib pictures kind of give an inkling of the sado-masochistic psycho-sexual tortures that might be more difficult to discern the scars from.

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Silenced Victims.
Posted by: melpol on Apr 12, 2009 12:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It only takes a few minutes of suffocation to make the strongest prisoners blurt out all that they know. After those painful few moments they are useless to the interrogator. But a whistle blower or constant whiner need a special type of torture. It might take months or years of pain for them to learn to keep their mouths shut. Unfortunate victims with a tale to tell will be punished day after day and eventually broken. They can then be released to live a life as a silent and obedient slave.

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» RE: Silenced Victims. Posted by: mrcentrist
metaphorical comparisons
Posted by: sleepingdog on Apr 12, 2009 5:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hello? is this a good to time to interest you in a "it's just like the nazis" comparison?

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The torturers must be shit upon
Posted by: mrcentrist on Apr 12, 2009 6:25 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They must be shit upon without mercy.

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Obama doesn't have to be directly involved...
Posted by: Collielady on Apr 12, 2009 10:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
President Obama doesn't have to be directly involved. All he need do is announce that he will turn the matter over to the Justice Department... you know, the same Justice Department that fingered so many Democrats under the Bush Administration. Except now the tables are turned. Well, what goes around... . Funny how that works.

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Doctors Mad and Bad
Posted by: cashelboylo on Apr 14, 2009 2:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"the disturbing role of medical professionals in the torture of suspects, which included using doctors' equipment to monitor their health, even as torture was carried out."
Medical professionals have carried out this same role since the invention of the racket called Medicine.
The Spanish Inquisition had "Doctors" in attendance -- and many of the drivers of the tortures and murders were so-called "Doctors of the Church."
A major secret agenda of "Witch Trials" including those of Salem, Massachusetts, has always been the elimination of "Old Wives" (midwives) for the benefit of medical "doctors."
And the Most Monstrous Monsters of the Third Reich were Doctors like Mengele. The SS provided the Guards, the Medical Profession provided the Torturer-Murderers.
And most of the Human Spare Parts racket is organized and carried out by "Doctors."

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A Veteran's View
Posted by: Little Bad Wolf on Apr 15, 2009 8:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Official disregard for our own Constitution's protections and for the Geneva Conventions by the Bush "Junta" is not only WRONG, but opens all Americans, civilian or military, diplomat or tourist, any place in the world, and at any time, to mistreatment by whatever parties.

America has set a terrible example of abuse for the rest of the world, and now has no grounds for complaint if Americans are treated as we have treated others. We have especially endangered our military by our foolishness. No soldier, private or general, can expect civilised conditions, nor can the International Red Cross be expected to protect our people when we are flagrant abusers of international standards and protections. We have broken faith with our children, volunteers on whom we depend for protection.

Rather than carrying freedom's torch we have carried the torturer's brand to the rest of the world. Now America has to win back its Place in the world and its seat at the table of nations. It is not up to the Spanish to prosecute our false leaders. We must do it ourselves to start the healing process.

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Why we need to take another look at 9-11
Posted by: metamind on Apr 16, 2009 2:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are millions of Americans who believe 9-11 was an "inside job" or at least that our government "allowed" it to happen. That's the best reason why we need to take another look at 9-11 and re-investigate EVERYTHING which remains a mystery, like why building 7 at the WTC collapsed and why we aren't allowed to see the surveillance videotape from the Sheraton near the Pentagon. What could possibly be considered "national security" about a Sheraton hotel videotape? Show us the tape already.

The Obama administration has clearly stated it believes the myth of Osama bin Laden and his gang of terrorists. If 9-11 was a creation of some agency or rogue elements within our own government, then the foreign policy of the U.S. is currently founded on a false premise.
That's not a "little matter" to be swept under the rug. It'a s MAJOR DEAL which needs to be exposed.

It means we have to admit we were "conned" by someone or some organization. It means that the true conspiracy is different than the one we allege to be operated by Osama bin Laden.

It means we "got it wrong."

There is sufficient cause for a thorough investigation of everything connected with 9-11. The fact that the Democrats and President Obama seem disinterested in this fact should concern us all greatly.

Set the truth free and the truth will set us free. Investigate 9-11 correctly, completely and conclusively.

Steve Moyer
http://stevemoyer.us

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The Ghost of Nuremberg
Posted by: johngary on Apr 16, 2009 8:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is interesting all this talk about tourture being a criminal act. Could this just be a distraction.
If you recall, the first count against every Nazi leader was UNPROVOKED WAR!!
Recall that was the major crime against humanity.
The crime against humanity we should be looking at is the unprovoked war against Iraq!
Based on our adoption of the UN Charter and the Nuremberg Convention, we accepted as a matter of criminal law that any unprovoked war would be a criminal act and a crime against humanity.
But now this distraction. WHY? Perhaps not only the Bush Administration people feel guilty but also quite a few Senators.
So the criminals go free and we will probably round up a few lower echelon CIA agents, put them in jail and assuage our conscience!

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CIA up to Bush-Admin and Torture
Posted by: rtpricetag on Apr 17, 2009 4:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It was bad enough having the mentally unbalanced running the Executive Office for eight-long years (2000-2008), but if we have demented in the CIA also, this agency needs people with brains, not mentally unbalanced criminals like the Cheney-cabal.

This nation WILL NOT return to a Constitutional-Gov of Law until every one of these criminals and retards are brought to justice, what terms they get is up to the Court's and Justice. However we will never become a decent nation and true Democracy again until the above justice is fulfilled.

By the way, the Presidents own private-military answering directly to the President, called the Covert CIA Paramilitary needs end IMMEDIATELY or sooner.

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Urban Myth#3
Posted by: Urban Myth #3 on Apr 18, 2009 7:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They should all go to the World Court - else we stop pretending, and shut the Edifice down, along with the UN.
Parodies of freedom are in no-one's interest.
Saddam, for all his crimes, was strung up by an anonymous lynch Mob - unacceptable, if people who commit the same crimes walk.

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