COMMENTS: 258
Questioning Authority: A Rethinking of the Infamous Milgram Experiments
Sign up to stay up to date on the latest Civil Liberties headlines via email.
Between 1963 and 1974, Dr. Stanley Milgram conducted a series of experiments that would become one of the most famous social psychology studies of the 20th century. His focus was how average people respond to authority, and what he revealed stunned and disturbed people the world over.
Under the pretense of an experiment on "learning" and "memory," Milgram placed test subjects in a lab rigged with fake gadgetry, where a man in a lab coat instructed them to administer electrical shocks to a fellow test subject (actually an actor) seated in another room in "a kind of miniature electric chair."
Participants were told they were the "teachers" in the scenario and given a list of questions with which to quiz their counterparts (the "learners"). If the respondent answered incorrectly to a question, he got an electric shock as punishment.
The shocks were light at first -- 15 volts -- and became stronger incrementally, until they reached 450 volts -- a level labeled "Danger: Severe Shock." The actors were never actually electrocuted, but they pretended they were. They groaned, shouted, and, as the current became stronger, begged for relief. Meanwhile, the man in the lab coat coolly told the test subjects to keep going.
To people's horror, Milgram discovered that a solid majority of his subjects -- roughly two-thirds -- were willing to administer the highest levels of shock to their counterparts. This was as true among the first set of his test subjects (Yale undergrads), to subsequent "ordinary" participants as described by Milgram ("professionals, white-collar workers, unemployed persons and industrial workers"), to test subjects abroad, from Munich to South Africa. It was also as true for women as it was for men (although female subjects reported a higher degree of anxiety afterward).
For people who learned of the study, this became devastating proof, not only of human beings' slavish compliance in the face of authority, but of our willingness to do horrible things to other people. The study has been used to explain everything from Nazi Germany to the torture at Abu Ghraib.
But what if Milgram's obedience studies tell us something else, something just as essential, not about our obedience to authority, but what it takes for people to resist it? Now, for the first time in decades, a psychologist has replicated Milgram's famous study (with some critical changes).
The bad news: His results are statistically identical to Milgram's. The good news: Contrary to popular perception, the lesson it teaches us is not that human beings are a breed of latent torturers. "Actually," says Dr. Jerry Burger, the psychologist who led the exercise, "what I think is that the real lesson of the demonstration is quite the opposite."
Replicating Milgram: 'I Can't Tell You Why I Listened to Him and Kept Going'
Burger works at Santa Clara University in Santa Clara, Calif. Like many in his field, he has long been interested in Milgram.
"Everybody who works in my area has his or her own ideas about why Milgram's participants did what they did," he says. And many have ideas about what they would change if they did the study themselves. "I have kind of had ideas like that forever … but it's pretty much been considered to be out of bounds for research. I think we all kind of assumed no one was every going to be able to do this study again."
Indeed, Milgram's obedience study was deeply controversial in its time. His deceptive methodology would later be criticized as unethical, and stiffer regulations concerning the psychological well-being of participants in such studies would follow. Thus, despite its enduring role in the popular imagination -- and relevance to the events of the day -- Milgram's study would remain firmly entrenched in its time and place.
Then, in 2004, the Abu Ghraib scandal broke. In the analysis that followed, many pointed to Milgram's findings as a way to understand what could have led otherwise-average soldiers to act so cruelly. At ABC News, producers decided they wanted to do an investigative report on this question.
"I think what they had in mind at first was some sort of journalistic stunt," Burger recalls "… to set up the Milgram study themselves." But ABC was advised not undertake such a project lightly. "Someone told them, 'If you want to do some sort of exploration of obedience, you need to talk to someone who works in the field,' " says Burger. "Somehow my name surfaced in this conversation."
When ABC called him, "I told them, 'No you can't replicate Milgram,' but I thought it was great that they wanted to explore these questions. … I was not interested in helping them put on some kind of stunt (but), it was something that I always wanted to do. And if ABC would foot the bill …"
It took months to set up the project -- recruiting and vetting participants, getting insurance, consulting lawyers, etc. When it came to conduct the experiment, Burger had implemented significant changes to Milgram's original study. One crucial adjustment had been to establish a threshold that did not exist under Milgram. Burger calls it the "150-volt solution."
"You can't put people through what Milgram did," says Burger. Revisiting descriptions of his subjects, he says, "you see that people were suffering tremendously." They believed they were torturing people, that people were "presumably even dying on the other side of the wall."
Thus, based on Milgram's original data, which showed that the majority of the participants who administered 150-volt shocks to their subjects were willing to go all the way to the highest levels, Burger decided that he would stop participants at the 150-volt mark, "the point of no return."
When the ABC special aired in January 2007, it took a predictably sensationalist approach. "A Touch of Evil" was the title, and foreboding music provided a dark backdrop.
The segment showed men and women of various ages, ethnicities and professions doing the same thing -- administering what they believed were electric shocks to a person in another room.
Often the participants would be startled by the shouts behind the wall, turning to look to the man in the lab coat with nervous expressions. But at his behest, they continued, even amid protests from the actor. ("Get me out of here, I told you I had heart trouble. My heart's starting to bother me now.")
In the end, 70 percent of the subjects reached the 150-volt mark -- a statistic basically identical to Milgram's. Unlike in Milgram's experiment, however, Burger told his subjects immediately after their time was up that the whole thing had been staged.
"I can't tell you why I listened to him and kept going," one participant told his ABC interviewer. "I should have just said no."
In the media and the blogosphere, the response to Burger's study has played into the notion that Milgram's findings, as true now as they were a generation ago, point to some intrinsic capacity for evil in human beings. It was more or less summed up by one blog's headline, which Burger noted, chuckling: "This Just In: We Still Suck."
'Under the Right Circumstances, People Will Act In Surprising and Unsettling Ways'
Although Milgram's research is understood mainly through the lens of "obedience," Burger believes that authority is actually not the definitive factor in the situation.
Just as important, if not more so, are the combination of factors that make up the scenario and which make subjects so dependent on authority. For example, despite being shown the "learner" strapped in before the experiment begins, participants are operating on relatively little information.
"They want to be a good participator, they don't know, 'should I stop, should I not,' " says Burger, "… Except there's a person in the room that's an expert, who knows all about the study, the equipment, etc … and he's acting like, well, this is nothing unusual … If the only information you have is telling you that this is the right thing to do -- of course you do it."
Participants are also absolved of any real sense of personal responsibility. "I was doing my job," is a common refrain. Burger notes, "when people don't feel responsible, that can lead to some very unsettling behaviors." And then, there's the high pressure created by the limited window of time participants have to choose whether to shock their "learner."
"Imagine if Milgram had allowed those people to take 30 minutes and think about it," says Burger. "They don't have time, and the experimenter doesn't allow them time. In fact, if the person pauses, the experimenter steps in and says, 'Please continue.' "
But perhaps the most important enabling factor is the fact that the volts go up in little by little.
"Milgram set this up so that people responded in small increments," says Burger. "They didn't start with 150 volts, they started with 15 and worked their way up … That is a very powerful way to change attitudes and behaviors." Most people, after all, don't start with extreme behaviors right off the bat.
"People didn't start by drinking Jim Jones' poison Kool-Aid," Burger says. "They probably started by donating money, or going to a meeting … you probably see that in most examples where you're scratching you head and saying, 'How can they do that?' "
In Burger's opinion, the significance of Milgram's findings are widely misunderstood. "The point is not 'look how bad people are.' … What we fail to recognize is the power of the situation and [that] under the right circumstances, people will act in surprising and sometimes unsettling ways."
Indeed, what these factors demonstrate is not how easily people will harm another person, but how quickly people will cede their own authority to another person when they feel isolated, pressured and powerless. The more controlled an environment, the more vulnerable a person is.
What Does It Take to Resist Authority?
Long before his most famous experiment, Stanley Milgram was interested in phenomena showing that people placed in the right situation will often do the wrong thing.
Writing in The Nation magazine in 1964 about a case in which a New York woman named Kitty Genovese was killed within earshot of 38 neighbors, none of whom intervened, Milgram wrote, "We are all certain that we would have done better." But, he argued, it is a mistake to "infer ethical values from the actual behavior of people in concrete situations."
"…We must ask, did the witnesses remain passive because they thought it was the right thing to do, or did they refrain from action despite what they thought or felt they should do? We cannot take it for granted that people always do what they consider right. It would be more fruitful to inquire why, in general and in this particular case, there is so marked a discrepancy between values and behavior."
One lens through which to understand this is politics, a profession notorious for its moral corrosiveness. In his book, Conservatives Without Conscience, John Dean, Richard Nixon's White House counsel, wrote about the Milgram experiment to explore how members of the Bush administration could be so complicit in the immoral policies of the so-called war on terror.
In a 2006 interview with Thom Hartmann, Dean explained:
"I looked at this because I was trying to understand, how do people who work at the CIA and know that they're part of a system that is torturing people in the Eastern European secret prisons -- and they're supporting that system, they're providing information or bringing it out of it -- how they do that every day?
"How do the people who work at NSA who were turning that huge electronic apparatus of surveillance on their neighbors and their friends, where's their conscience?
"And then I realized that this is a perfect example of the Milgram experiment at work. They're under authority figures. What they are doing is, they're haven't lost their conscience -- they have given their conscience to another agent, and so they feel very comfortable in doing it."
If Milgram's experiment showed a sort of moral death by a thousand cuts, the decisions, compromises and rationalizations that politicians make on a daily basis from their Washington offices that seem otherwise unfathomable indeed seem easier to explain, if not justifiable. After all, unlike the participants in Milgram's original study, who were paid $5 for their time (and notoriety), politicians in the White House or on Capitol Hill build their careers on decisions that can destroy human beings. Whether in Iraq or at Guantanamo, the suffering on the other side of those walls is real.
But Milgram has much to teach us, too, about what it takes to resist powerful governments and their destructive policies. It's not easy, and the stakes can be high.
Writing about war resisters in The Nation in 1970, Milgram noted, "Americans who are unwilling to kill for their country are thrown into jail. And our generation learns, as every generation has, that society rewards and punishes its members not in the degree to which each fulfills the dictates of individual conscience but in the degree to which the actions are perceived by authority to serve the needs of the larger social system. It has always been so."
But while Milgram so effectively demonstrated the challenge of defying authority, he also showed that subjects were far more likely to do it when they saw other people doing it. He wrote in The Perils of Obedience, "The rebellious action of others severely undermines authority."
"In one variation, three teachers (two actors and a real subject) administered a test and shocks. When the two actors disobeyed the experimenter and refused to go beyond a certain shock level, 36 of 40 subjects joined their disobedient peers and refused as well."
Put in a political context, this is perhaps the most important lesson Milgram has to teach us. The best hope people have of resisting an oppressive system is to validate their experiences alongside other people. There is no more basic antidote to authoritarianism than support, solidarity and community.
Milgram wrote, "When an individual wishes to stand in opposition to authority, he does best to find support for his position from others in his group. The mutual support provided by men for each other is the strongest bulwark we have against the excesses of authority."
Stay up to date with the latest Civil Liberties headlines via email
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Smartcookie on Feb 12, 2009 12:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we did there would be no homeless people, the fact that we have homeless people at all is proof positve - we don't give a fuck.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: "If we did there would be no homeless people",...
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: we do give a...
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: we do give a...
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: we do give a...
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» RE: we do give a...
Posted by: madmax427
» Speak for yourself!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Speak for yourself!
Posted by: Smartcookie
» Ever hear of the concept of "social engineering"?
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: ver hear of the concept of "social engineering"?
Posted by: greenPuker
» The reason, if you read my whole thing that I gave you, that rebuttal...
Posted by: Prophit
» Wrong, GreenPuker - you are SO wrong!
Posted by: Cathyc
» Great answer, Cathyc.......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Wrong, GreenPuker - you are SO wrong!
Posted by: Cyberpundit
» Come on, Prophit, think!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Damn good question... do you know which gene that is???
Posted by: Prophit
» Whoa, wait a minute.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» I guess there is a misunderstanding here, so let me try one more time...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I guess there is a misunderstanding here, so let me try one more time...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» EXACTLY..... That was the point i was trying to make.....I don't think...
Posted by: Prophit
» I did "think".... in fact above I say sooo ..... here read it again..
Posted by: Prophit
» Genes have nothing to do with our present behaviour...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Genes have nothing to do with our present behaviour...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Come on, Prophit, think!
Posted by: Kati
» RE: Come on, Prophit, think!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Here is another example of why we acquiese to authority....
Posted by: Prophit
» CON'T from prev post: Here is another example of why we acquiese to authority....
Posted by: Prophit
» Good for you Prophit. Is it any wonder..
Posted by: Centavo
» Thanks, Centavo, but I am used to it after 8 years of documenting...
Posted by: Prophit
» What's her son doing in Iraq?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Captain Jackass
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Captain Jackass Seconded
Posted by: greenPuker
» Actually, that is not true...... you said....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: georgiaorwell on Feb 12, 2009 12:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never has a country's citizens been so manipulated on this planet as has ours. It isn't that we are beginning to live the matrix - we've been there for decades.
The real question is what are we going to do about it? Educating people to become free thinkers - people who question authority - takes time. Most are too afraid of losing their jobs.....but wait, everyone is losing their jobs anyway. We need to empty the cup and start thinking outside authority. Maybe anarchy is just around the corner.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» education or indoctrination?
Posted by: socialpsych
» It (indoctrination) starts infancy...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: It (indoctrination) starts infancy...
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» RE: education or indoctrination?
Posted by: TomTom
» Wiseman controls the rights to his films
Posted by: mclemens
» RE: education or indoctrination?
Posted by: praedor
» good book for all to read
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» You are confusing Authority with Authoritarinism, aka Tyranny!
Posted by: Cathyc
» I think your absolutely right, did you see the UTube of the police... handcuffing a 5 year old?
Posted by: Prophit
» Afraid of Authoritarians - just like the rest of his fellow Americans"
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: I think your absolutely right, did you see the UTube of the police... handcuffing a 5 year old?
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» Absolutely right about the select few......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: We're in the matrix now - we're not behind a plow....
Posted by: joebanana
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 12, 2009 1:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's one important distinction that makes the conclusions very disturbing: The subjects were under no real pressure to do what they were told. They were volunteers, probably expecting on some level to be manipulated. They knew that they could go home after the experiment with no consequences.
Concern about punishment, keeping your job, or social pressure, while not an excuse to commit horrific acts, is somewhat understandable when dealing with the average person. But the experiments seem to prove that people will do what they're told even when there are no carrots or sticks involved. It wasn't their boss, their pastor, their mother, or their peers telling them what to do; just some geek in a lab coat.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Its similar to the idea of the panopticon
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Excellent point Joshua -- please note that it was Foucault
Posted by: mclemens
» Remember, Milgram did have some interaction with the CIA...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: emember, Milgram did have some interaction with the CIA...
Posted by: greenPuker
» Yes, I remember people like you after 9-11 who said the same thing...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Yes, I remember people like you after 9-11 who said the same thing..YES.
Posted by: Captainmagic
» You know, until Bush I was for gun control for the very reasons....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Yes, I remember people like you after 9-11 who said the same thing..YES.
Posted by: TheLimit
» picked rather randomly
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Feb 12, 2009 1:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And as the article quite correctly points out (in my opinion at least)in the last paragraph:
Milgram wrote, "When an individual wishes to stand in opposition to authority, he does best to find support for his position from others in his group. The mutual support provided by men for each other is the strongest bulwark we have against the excesses of authority."
Casuistry seems to be on steroids these days, and is enjoying quite a healthy resurgence. In such reasonings many monsters hide!
We must refuse to conceive of ourselves as means and to conceive of others as means. Only then do we have the possibility to collectively decide on what goals to set for ourselves and how to accomplish these.
Social democracy!!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» LOVE THE CHILD, SAVE THE PLANET !
Posted by: secr
» RE: LOVE THE CHILD, SAVE THE PLANET !
Posted by: talkville
» Yes, the NATURAL needs of the child are ...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: LOVE THE CHILD, SAVE THE PLANET !
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: LOVE THE CHILD, SAVE THE PLANET !
Posted by: NeoLotus
» The 'herd instinct' ...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: The 'herd instinct' ...
Posted by: talkville
» RE: The uses of casuistry
Posted by: Xynyx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BST on Feb 12, 2009 1:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those things that keep us from demonstrating cruelty displayed by others is an amalgam of upbringing, genetics, luck, emotional stability, socialization and serendipity.
Some people murder. I don't. But because one person can means I have that capability. I've just not been placed in their shoes.
But then, I have long been a practicing Buddhist and Buddhists believe that whatever one "waters" in the garden is what flourishes.
Water hate and it takes over; water serenity and peace and that pushes out the weeds. But neither potential disappears completely.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Very true
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on Feb 12, 2009 2:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FREE AMERICA
REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wildbill on Feb 12, 2009 2:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to know more, Dr, Zimbardo will lead you on a tour of hell at: http://www.prisonexp.org/ .
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» Zimbardo
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Zimbardo
Posted by: DaBear
» Zimbardo live web interview: 19.February,2009
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» RE: Zimbardo live web interview: 19.February,2009
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: e-sprinter
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: wrnhart
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 12, 2009 2:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sherman's students studied Milgram's experiments and predicted that they would not succumb to pressure from authority figures. Sherman then arranged for the students to be asked by an outsider to do something that they would not naturally be inclined to do. Most of the students did not live up to their confident predictions.
However, there was a significant amount of difference in the rate of compliance which suggests that when people consider moral dilemmas in advance they are somewhat more likely to do the right thing.
I guess they don't want to teach morality and ethics in boot camp, but it should be required in our schools. A poster upthread explains why.
Sherman's study can be found in Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol. 39, No. 2.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reinaldok on Feb 12, 2009 3:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
except for HOMO SAPIENS kills for the joy and pleasure of killing not because of need? Why can't we just follow the example of all the so called Wild Animals. Why are we so very quick to criticize and mock all those, who through hunger eat dog meat and snakes.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: BST
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Cat and mouse
Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: edgar1
» HOMO SAPIENS are not born sadists - they are MADE that way!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: HOMO SAPIENS are not born sadists - they are MADE that way!
Posted by: cmaciain
» here is no such thing as "born evil" - those who believe so, are either stupid or evil themselves!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: here is no such thing as "born evil" - those who believe so, are either stupid or evil themselves!
Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: HOMO SAPIENS are not born sadists - they are MADE that way!
Posted by: zhine
» Sociopaths
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: reinaldok
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» Chimps have been found to kill for reasons other than safety...
Posted by: Prophit
» I forgot to mention, they only do it in groups... as individuals...
Posted by: Prophit
» I thought you said we were closest to the kangaroos
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» actually we are closest, ironically, in DNA to Kangaroos than we are...
Posted by: Prophit
» Dolphins.
Posted by: -matti
» RE: Dolphins.
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» THE LYING KING, OBAMA
Posted by: reelman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Scott on Feb 12, 2009 3:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Bad babies?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Bad babies?
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Bad babies?
Posted by: Cybershaman
» cmaciain, You are confusing children with adults!
Posted by: Cathyc
» What babies have you been around?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: What babies have you been around?
Posted by: cmaciain
Comments are closed-
Posted by: folkie on Feb 12, 2009 3:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many people who were not loved as children, or were abused, who did not grow up to be without conscience but instead developed a bad attitude towards authority. They recognize abuse of power because that's what they got instead of mother's milk, and they oppose it with all their hearts and with their lives when necessary.
It is often those who had loving parents and good childhoods who grew up trusting authority and would never dream of questioning hierarchy, authoritarianism, or fascism, no matter what they were asked to do.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Right on, folkie!
Posted by: socialpsych
» Yeah, lost in space and with no one to turn to. plastered here to troll.
Posted by: WYGunston
» Thank goodness, we have more than our share of those already...
Posted by: Prophit
» folkie, you have no idea what LOVE is
Posted by: Cathyc
» I happen to agree with you... in fact, in a loving home you learn...
Posted by: Prophit
» Little harsh, don't you think?
Posted by: -matti
» RE: folkie, you have no idea what LOVE is
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Feb 12, 2009 3:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» read your darwin: it's all about survival unless you're a "christian"
Posted by: edgar1
» Without some semblance of morality from the past, you wouldn't be here.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Without some semblance of morality from the past, you wouldn't be here.
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Without some semblance of morality from the past, you wouldn't be here.
Posted by: WYGunston
» So you would have us all live like animals would you????
Posted by: Prophit
» No, we're not. And no groups will purify us.
Posted by: Beck
» Yeah but why settle for groups that will lie to you and then screw you?
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Let's just face it. We're an A-M-O-R-A-L nation, PERIOD.
Posted by: WYGunston
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Anthhh on Feb 12, 2009 4:01 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat
:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
_______________________________________
SO we can assist (Jesus) the Teacher by saying "Exactly %70 percent wider is the gate that leads to Hell than the gate tht leads to life"
I have answered correctly and no one has punished me.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Wide. . Is ..The ..Gate .. That ..Leads ..To...
Posted by: cmaciain
» ................WIDE is the ..........GATE ....
Posted by: Anthhh
» Ah... Math...
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Ah... Math...
Posted by: Anthhh
» RE: Wide. . Is ..The ..Gate .. That ..Leads ..To...
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» RE: Wide. . Is ..The ..Gate .. That ..Leads ..To...
Posted by: Anthhh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Philor on Feb 12, 2009 4:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now what do I mean clearly?
A moron who spent his childhood in some backwater place shooting deer and beer cans is much more likely to commit atrocity than a canditate in the physics Ph. D program at MIT.
You don't like this? Too bad it's the fact.
We are a chimp like species. We are very violent creatures that kill for food and also have the potential to kill the members of own species. Only culture and education can temper and/or remove this and show us why it must be tamed.
Somebody who had to enlist in the army to go kill third world people who never attack her, because she was economically in trouble in the richest country on earth, is NOT the most amazing subject of our species. Quite the contrary. It's somebody raw, on whom culture and civilization has not been able to lay down those lawyers I was talking above.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Yes
Posted by: using
» Morons come from all walks of life...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Let's explore this idea
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Let's explore this idea
Posted by: Kati
» Now see, you also have a distorted view.... then explain the...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Now see, you also have a distorted view.... then explain the...
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» abuse and education
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 12, 2009 4:31 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is strengthened by sociological pressures of Role & status.Not only do we want to be in the group, we want to be seen as someone of substance and influence in the group. In the horse herd, if a over flighty horse spooks, many will not react -has cried 'wolf' too often and the 'lead' horse does not support their reaction,also the reason mares don't run just because a foal gets spooked.These are not recognized dominate nor of influential standing.
this is why there is no doubt that only the High ranking members who weild influence authorized torture. No low ranking, non influential memeber could 'move' the group to perform such acts. Instead the low ranking, nobody would have been run out of the 'herd', exposed by disassociation, because the 'herd'memebers would be following the leaders who retain the most influence (power) over the group- whether physically there or not. this is why Cheney and Rumsfeld are to be prosecuted for torture. These crimes were not comitted in only one location, but many and therefore Only those dominate over the 'Military' group could have initated such behaviors.
I've seen how one mare can get the entire herd chasing down one dog- full runs with teeth beared, even when singlely most these mares have no problems with MY dog (familiar with her scent)- that old grey Mare Weilded power over the entire herd to such an extent their normal individual reaction were negated.
fight or flight, 'herds' can quickly become a single entity, when a dominate member is initating the action.The only one who Out ranked that Old Grey mare and able to stop the attack was Me. I am considered dominate even over even that mare.So Rummy was equal in status to the mare, but Cheney was equal in domination to Me- I could have let the attack happen,but stepped in and stopped it.Rummy initiated and Cheney perpetuated War crimes.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: titusoye on Feb 12, 2009 5:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The truth is not in merely being obident to the authority, the truth is in the expected reward: tacit, explicit or implied. Man wants to deify himself at anytime, given the opportunity. Just like a broken glass vase or chalice could instantly become a sharp blade, so also can man under influence or authority become an oppressor, a torturer, or a murderer. The issue is not in our inability to question the authority, the issue has to do with our capability to agree with the authority. One thing which this article and the experiements failed to identify is our vulnerability to become what we want to change. That perhaps is the weakness of those who torture.
The Bible says it all "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" Genesis 6:5-7).
Another way to look at both experiements (Milgrams and Burger) is to consider the thoughts of mind as the given authority (something like Mind and the World Order according to C.I. Lewis). The question then is how does world order influence how world leaders interpret the thoughts of their minds. May be the question we should ask ourvesleves constantly is, "If I were in that position, would I have handled the situation differently?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 12, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the worst communist thugs like stalin, mao, trotsky and castro were well educated, middleclass, well read men. they just lacked empathy. millions starved, were shot, or froze to death.
but we all know that trying to make a profit is far worse. after all, the ny times and the cool one(blessed be his name) said so.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» The Commies are more honest than our owners
Posted by: billwald
» No
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Reds take the prize
Posted by: erjoell
» You are covering up mass murder
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: You are covering up mass murder.....and Bu$hCo
Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: You are covering up mass murder.....and Bu$hCo
Posted by: WingedGryphon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cathyc on Feb 12, 2009 5:44 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No. The real lens through which to understand the corrosion of our innate morality is REGLIGION. That is, being systematically (incrementally) indoctrinated by religious dogma as children.
Such systematic ideological childhood conditioning is a sure guarantee that one is as far removed from personal responsibility, as possible. The inevitable end result of all this 'programming' is, of course, an adult with an under-developed conscience, if not completely devoid of a conscience.
Milgram's infamous experiment merely serves to reinforce the warped (evil) stance of the authoritarians (sociopaths) who still dominate the so-called Christian West.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Don't be so quick to blame Christianity
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: That sonic boom you heard...
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Don't be so quick to blame Christianity
Posted by: Cathyc
» Not in my observation or reading
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Not in my observation or reading
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Not in my observation or reading...Inquesition anyone?.. :-)
Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: Authority versus Authoritarian
Posted by: mbruton
» RE: Probably not religion though
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WYGunston on Feb 12, 2009 12:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Beck on Feb 12, 2009 10:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But it sounds lonely, no?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Feb 12, 2009 5:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The mania for wars in Afghanistan and Iraq seems to me to be an example of this mob mentality and although I never favored entering those wars, I have to admit being taken back by the widespread enthusiasm for going to war, seemingly by everyone around me. Faced with this kind of environment, I had to start questioning my own position and start to have doubts about whether I was overlooking something.
I never overcame my doubts, but I did become less vocal in my opposition to the war, and now I have to wonder whether my relative silence may have influenced others. Probably others kept quiet for the same reason and this may have affected me as well.
Reflecting on this gives me some sympathy for people who have been ordered to torture. They should have been stronger and refused, but this is asking quite a lot of a young soldier without much experience of the world.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Seems very natural to humans, and must be unlearned
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Anthhh on Feb 12, 2009 6:20 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Imagine a horse killing cows or vice versa?
I believe that people are herbivores because we have not pointed teeth like cats and dogs. ( Except the canines, which even horses and cows have)
I believe that the dawn of man saw humans as peaceful as a newborn baby. When hurt, we would naturally cry outloud, and hope to be heard by the forces that be.
In man's middle evolution, he is as the cursed person who has hurt another through his quest for the biggest sex. just like what happens to almost every person in the course of his lifetime.
Then towards the ending of Humankind's evolutionary wane, he will be as an elderly person... trying harder than ever to use all that he has learned and master the universe....but in reality, will wind up going out with only regrets, in a weak, fraile cackling whimper..Lashing out against even his own caregivers, because of severe pain.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» We do have pointed teeth.
Posted by: Beck
» So pointed teeth are why people are not peaceful ? LOL !
Posted by: WYGunston
» We can make your teeth whiter and straighter: insurance card please
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: ....... Cows Are Peaceful People
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: abemko on Feb 12, 2009 6:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suggest that we are born good, lose contact with that innate goodness through conditioning and trauma, but can choose to heal and regain that connection. Milgram should be celebrated for pointing out how bad the hurt is and letting us know what needs to change. We now have the great opportunity to retake control of our lives and start saying NO to the crowds who want us to see enemies on every side and "authorities" who know better than we do and YES to the most human of adages, do unto others as you would have them do unto to.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: PEAPLE ARE BORN GOOD THEN TRAUMATIZED
Posted by: cmaciain
» What you describe are the exceptions when genetically....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GuitarBill on Feb 12, 2009 9:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you click on his "Privacy Center" hyperlink, the server the link points to will install a keylogger on your computer, which is used to steal your credit card number, SSN, etc.
Please, report the comment to Alternet's staff.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Don't click on that link (IDENTITY THEFT!) - ALTERNET doesn't give a damn about this troll
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Don't click on that link (IDENTITY THEFT!) - ALTERNET doesn't give a damn about this troll
Posted by: GuitarBill
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Feb 12, 2009 10:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: athurlow on Feb 12, 2009 7:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dismas on Feb 12, 2009 7:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Capacity for cruelty following the lead of authorities
Posted by: Ocean tides
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Liberty G on Feb 12, 2009 7:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I talked to a rapist in prison about how he felt while committing his crime, he explained that while he remembered all the details about what had happened, it was as though he was watching from outside himself while doing it – there was no feeling. And the three other prisoners in the group immediately said, "I know what you mean."
I have always had trouble understanding seemingly callous, horrible crimes of violence. I now believe that one explanation is that people in certain painful situations, including those inflicting pain on others, withdraw completely from that human, feeling part – because the feelings are unbearable.
I found many other indications that, along with the capacity to do terrible things to others, there is a part of us that is revolted and sickened by such cruelty. A wise sage, approached by a questioner about the "two wolves" within, one loving, one violent, was asked which would win. His answer? "The one you feed."
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Feb 12, 2009 8:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Psychologically damaged humans imagine themselves to be superior to all the other animals
Posted by: Cathyc
» Just found this that might help ......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Just found this that might help ......
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: littlepitcher on Feb 12, 2009 8:22 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So humans submit themselves to the Malign Thug, and to all authority figures below that level.
Anyone who has endured a harassment campaign---anyone who has an anomalous appearance--anyone who volunteers to secede from the herd, even in one line-item only--can tell you who the enemy is. Everyone, and the apparent exception probably will report to them.
This isn't paranoia, it's history, experience, and biology, Deal with it.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Not true in our family.... anyone who acts like that is laughed at....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stellabloo on Feb 12, 2009 8:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Group A students were told that they were superior to Group B students and that Group B was there to serve Group A. In fact it was Group A's job to police Group B for obedience and conformity.
Things escalated rapidly. Group A students graduated from pep rallies to outright bullying during the 3 day study. Group A unanimously assumed their designated role - why resist when an authority figure tells you that you are better than others?
Now there's an experiment that, unfortunately, is duplicated time and time again :.(
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We Still Suck.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: We Still Suck.
Posted by: WYGunston
» We're trying not to suck.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» Take your self-righteous fascism and get lost sir.
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Your post makes no sense
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» It's time for Group B to fight back like a hardcore vigilante and kick Group A's ASS !
Posted by: WYGunston
» Is Group B cutting class?
Posted by: edgar1
» Pure bullshit. Group B is playing by the rules while Group A is doing all the C-H-E-A-T-I-N-G and
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peacelf on Feb 12, 2009 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To further demonstrate, one need only look at the case of Adolph Eichmann, the Nazi SS oficer in charge of sending Jews to the death camps. Hannah Arendt, author of Eichmann in Jerusalem, posited the idea of the Banality of Evil after observing and reporting on Eichmann's trial in the early 1960's.
Eichmann, Arendt argued, was nothing more than a bureaucrat, who had no particular hatred of Jews, but was following orders and trying to get promoted. Eichmann was part of the culture of evil that existed in Nazi Germany. Cultural evil is much more nefarious than the actions of a psychopathic madman, because in enlists ordinary people in extraordinary acts of evil.
When radical author and Colorado university professor Ward Churchill called the Wall St. traders in the World Trade Centers "little Eichmann" he was referring to the traders who profited from the death and destruction of war. Their claim that they are "just doing their jobs" is the Banality of evil Arendt described in her work.
The recent revelations of Wall St malfeasance and the lack of concern for average citizens suffering in this economic turmoil, and the exorbitant pay, bonuses and private jets of the rich and powerful further demonstrate the culture of "disconnect" for the suffering of average people that corporate executives live in their penthouse offices.
Critical pedagogy, a small branch of educational theory, offers a model for an educational system that would teach students to act with critical consciousness, to be active citizens in a democratic society, to be cultural critics with the ability to deconstruct their own experiences and "awaken" moral and ethical behavior by teaching young people to see the "Other" as human, with their own desires and hopes.
Milgrams experiment does suggest that we all have the capacity for evil, but I think we all have an equal capacity for good, too, given the right education.
peace
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Ward must be right cause he's a Native; ummmm maybe he is?
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Ward must be right--Read Arendt...
Posted by: peacelf
» Blind Obedience creates the Perfect Serf or Soldier ...
Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: Traditional Education castrates curiosity...
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lindawageck1 on Feb 12, 2009 8:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
reacted differently? Of course you would have; which is to say age means everything
when it comes to not being a 'sheep'.
Hey, sociologists! Buy a vowel and get a clue! Stop coming to huge campus full of 20 year old students who don't yet manage their own lives, to find people to participate in your experiments only to claim we are ALL like them!! Stop it!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Self-righteous rightwing troll.
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Self-righteous rightwing troll.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» "Buy a vowel and get a clue!" LOL! Nice one!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: A women centered experiment has been going on for 100s of years.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: A women centered experiment has been going on for 100s of years.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Lets see, where did circumcision originate??? Could that be ...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Feb 12, 2009 8:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#@!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: ver been in love?
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eplawutsky on Feb 12, 2009 8:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Mixing up "science" and a "stunt"
Posted by: laoma
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leland61 on Feb 12, 2009 8:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Death Camps - Nazi Germany
Death Camps - Pol Pot
Death Camps - Stalinist Russia
Rendition and torture - USA
False imprisonment and torture - USA
Use of nuclear weapons on Civilian populations - USA not once but twice.
MY God!!!! the list could go on and on and on.
Wake up. Human beings are capable and in fact engage in very human depravity - depravity that doesn't exist in any other species and so is rightly human depravity not inhuman depravity.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: What a stupid question.
Posted by: Beck
» Yes, your right....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mwildfire on Feb 12, 2009 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We really need to look at what separates the one-third from the two-thirds.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Good points, mwildfire
Posted by: alternetty
» One-third of us are different from the remainder (herd)
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Anthhh on Feb 12, 2009 9:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We only think twice when others take the initiative.
Fear not to take the initiative. The TV has stolen the courage from us, and we must turn off the TV, and avoid excessive exchanges with those who use TV,..in order to unchain our thinking, originality and personal characther.
A Wise Man recently told me that no person can say who is important, and who is not.
If a Human baby is born into a wise loving and just family, and then falls into overloads of exposure to children from unjust and unwise families. The fair and wise child may make a bad choice, and become excessivly familiar to the way of wicked
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» I see a point, but beg to differ
Posted by: Beck
» RE: I see a point, but beg to differ
Posted by: WYGunston
» Media lies, Deceives, and STEALS OUR COURAGE TO DREAM.
Posted by: Anthhh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 12, 2009 2:35 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Feb 12, 2009 11:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is precisely because this principle is not most people's most closely held principle, that we are able to ignore the individual sovereignty of others.
If we start demanding this right for ourselves it will be easier and more natural to respect it in others.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I agree
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Unfortunately I think you are right
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ClassAct on Feb 12, 2009 12:31 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: RolyatLeahcim on Feb 12, 2009 12:41 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Question
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hilaryuk on Feb 12, 2009 12:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Human beings are not blank slates
Posted by: sirios
» RE: Human beings are not blank slates
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Feb 12, 2009 3:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reinaldok on Feb 12, 2009 1:04 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pdxjoe on Feb 12, 2009 1:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like how Milgram here qualifies authority and what about it we seek to resist as an excess. It's all too easy to reduce a discussion about authority into a ridiculous decision between bucking of authority as such or complete submission, where resisting authority means abandoning or withdrawing from it. By talking about an excess of authority, I think Milgram opens a door to a way of thinking and talking about authority that is not so black and white. It's not entirely novel though.
Rousseau wrote of two kinds of self-love: amour-propre and amour de soi. The latter is a natural and positive love we have for our existence/life as such, while the former is a uniquely human tendency towards vanity and pride. They often look the same, but it is amour-propre that humans engage when doing what they do in order to be recognized by others as superior. This debases not only others whose weakness or pain may validate our sense of superiority, but ourselves too---we who turn ourselves into a means for the end of validation in an other.
Maybe we can apply a similar distinction to how we talk about and relate to authority. What resistance would be possible, in theory or on the ground, without some sense of authority? I don't just mean authority in the brute meaning of common-sense, but also in the sense that it shares with the word "author." That is to say, those in authority direct and cultivate as much as, and potentially more than, they control and stifle. That excess of authority I pointed out in the beginning is the pivot point of this distinction, and concretely it marks when we talk about "government" as a power independent of The People and when we talk about exerting State-power as our own. That excess is the object of our own belief that we are outside (possibly) of power or it is outside (and over-against) us. There was a great quotation of Cicero at the end of a recent article to this end: freedom is participation in power.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: truthlover on Feb 12, 2009 1:19 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That would have caused a different dynamic: either way the subject would not have been isolated. I wonder how many would conform then?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Vik on Feb 12, 2009 2:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 12, 2009 2:34 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the Asians took up where the Germans left off, then the Africans revealed their "humanity" if not intelligence.
I say N. america is next. Obama will stir the pot. Let's see who turns up the heat. Hint: the group that understands where heat comes from. Ho Ho.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 12, 2009 2:52 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Anthhh on Feb 12, 2009 2:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Did you ever see how the "flea circus" train the fleas?
People would be much more original, creative, social, interested and patient with each other, have more character, etc X 10000 !
TV and Media corporations steal our dreams. The corporations which own it use the same psycology that is behind the scientists in those experiments use. It isnt difficult at all to do. Nor to get away with. They call it innocent-sounding and official-sounding names like "Advertising, Marketing, etc"
No profiteers can flourish in a society of people that thinks for themselves, dreams for themselves. Not when they can SELL you your dreams and thoughts. Now turn it off. Turn off the news. read read read read.
cancel your suscription to cable and/or satelite. It is a ticket to your self destruction with you name signed in your own blood.
In just 30 minutes, an average audio dialogue can place 1000 thoughts in your head!! Thoughts that you either have no need for, AND that WILL cause harm to, and interfere with your thought processes.
Sitting to listen like sheep to orations written by unknowns behind the stage, is an insult to yourself. Wake up. Media needs to change it's job description. To one of %100. sacrifice, rather than %100. self-service.
__
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Conversely
Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: Conversely
Posted by: Anthhh
» RE: Conversely
Posted by: Anthhh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on Feb 12, 2009 6:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FREE AMERICA
REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ellie on Feb 12, 2009 7:23 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the first rule is to do no harm... to anyone!!!
second rule is the development of a human subjects committee at research institutions where if someone wants to study certain social or psychological conditions there has to be an approval from the review board that is made up of faculty and others ensuring the safety and well-being of even voluntary human subjects...
try to do an end run around these rules and you get kicked out of the professional organization, probably sued and liable on your own for any injuries or damages... top it off with being blacklisted from ever doing your profession again...
that's why the old studies are still being reviewed, they can't be updated in the old form...
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: hey, no hitting below the belt...
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: grkjr on Feb 12, 2009 7:55 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pelican beak on Feb 12, 2009 8:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The explanations given in the article, such as, "Indeed, what these factors demonstrate is not how easily people will harm another person, but how quickly people will cede their own authority to another person when they feel isolated, pressured and powerless," are clearly consequences of our culture - how we've organized ourselves and are taught to behave to be part of our society. What we've been indoctrinated to internalize is not universal.
Or at least it wasn't, 500 years ago, before the Xtians thugs from Europe got the bright idea to steal and impoverish everybody else in the world. The authoritarian bent of our cultural heritage probably helped us succeed in these wicked deeds, but we've lost most of the cultural diversity which once existed on Earth.
The heart of a culture's ethical strength comes from its religious framework, and ours is horrible. Crooked and corrupt church leaders are everywhere. Xtianity has long been more of a force for accepting hypocrisy than for calling it out and ostracizing it. The huge range of Xtian churches today - from the Phelps who claim "God hates fags," to Mother Theresa's work in Calcutta, clearly indicate Xtianity is nothing but whatever folks decide to project into it - there is no unifying set of values.
The work of most churches destroy, far than than develop, a strong personal moral compass. Church teachings are to do what you're told; to obey commandments instead of developing strong values of your own. In many Xtians, self-righteousness and knee-jerk response have replaced a functioning moral compass of their own. Many are kept in their church by being kept morally infantilized. Even atheists and secularists who grow up in our society still internalize the social-organizing authoritarian hierarchy, and blindness to moral hypocrisy. No wonder so many in our culture will willingly do what they know is wrong.
Not all people suffered from this cultural dysfunction. A few of the largest other religions survive, but countless smaller ones were destroyed by Xtian missionaries, who forced the people into theirs, effectively destroying the glue which held them together. Any culture visited by missionaries, enjoys roads and vehicles, electricity, or commercial radio service, I'd consider to have been destroyed by our influence.
But until this experiment has been duplicated among people from a wide variety of cultures very different than ours, I'd consider any conclusions about "humanity" to be bogus. It only tells about the culture of the participants.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bob Parker on Feb 12, 2009 9:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On a similar note to Milgram and Zimbardo, the journalist Milton Mayer conducted his own research into how many of the German people became accomplices to the Nazi regime. He went back to Germany in 1954 and conducted in-depth interviews with about 10 different people who were adults during the Nazi regime. He published his book titled “They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45" (University of Chicago Press, Chicago & London: 1955). It offers some very illuminating insights. I found one passage especially poignant in which a German professor of Philology describes the insidious process by which a democratic society can slowly transform itself into a fascist state. It is a passage (and book) worth reading. It complements the work of Milgram and Zimbardo beautifully. This passage is published on my website ( www.focusreframed.com/?p=77/ )
(Please forgive the lack of hyperlinks; cut and paste the 2 links above. I could not figure out how to create hyperlinks for this comment.)
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Linked Text
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mbruton on Feb 12, 2009 10:35 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since it's inception the education system has never been about educating children, rather, it has been and still is about indoctrination to authoritarianism and producing obedient workers. Even as a child I could see it before knowing the horrible facts of the matter. Try reading up on the words of John D. Rockefeller, John Dewey, and Henry Ford. Our education system was modeled on the Prussian education system which was designed to produce obedient mercenary soldiers and worked quite well for that purpose.
Is it any wonder then that an average American will commit atrocities and then say, "It vas not mein fault, I vas only following orders".
Get a clue, this is not human nature it is the result of 12+ years of enforced psychological mind control techniques being forced upon helpless children.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: WingedGryphon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Old Uncle Dave on Feb 16, 2009 2:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Smartcookie on Feb 12, 2009 12:07 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we did there would be no homeless people, the fact that we have homeless people at all is proof positve - we don't give a fuck.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: "If we did there would be no homeless people",...
Posted by: gazooks
» RE: we do give a...
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: we do give a...
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: we do give a...
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» RE: we do give a...
Posted by: madmax427
» Speak for yourself!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Speak for yourself!
Posted by: Smartcookie
» Ever hear of the concept of "social engineering"?
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: ver hear of the concept of "social engineering"?
Posted by: greenPuker
» The reason, if you read my whole thing that I gave you, that rebuttal...
Posted by: Prophit
» Wrong, GreenPuker - you are SO wrong!
Posted by: Cathyc
» Great answer, Cathyc.......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Wrong, GreenPuker - you are SO wrong!
Posted by: Cyberpundit
» Come on, Prophit, think!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Damn good question... do you know which gene that is???
Posted by: Prophit
» Whoa, wait a minute.
Posted by: bornxeyed
» I guess there is a misunderstanding here, so let me try one more time...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: I guess there is a misunderstanding here, so let me try one more time...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» EXACTLY..... That was the point i was trying to make.....I don't think...
Posted by: Prophit
» I did "think".... in fact above I say sooo ..... here read it again..
Posted by: Prophit
» Genes have nothing to do with our present behaviour...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Genes have nothing to do with our present behaviour...
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: Come on, Prophit, think!
Posted by: Kati
» RE: Come on, Prophit, think!
Posted by: bornxeyed
» Here is another example of why we acquiese to authority....
Posted by: Prophit
» CON'T from prev post: Here is another example of why we acquiese to authority....
Posted by: Prophit
» Good for you Prophit. Is it any wonder..
Posted by: Centavo
» Thanks, Centavo, but I am used to it after 8 years of documenting...
Posted by: Prophit
» What's her son doing in Iraq?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Captain Jackass
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Captain Jackass Seconded
Posted by: greenPuker
» Actually, that is not true...... you said....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: georgiaorwell on Feb 12, 2009 12:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never has a country's citizens been so manipulated on this planet as has ours. It isn't that we are beginning to live the matrix - we've been there for decades.
The real question is what are we going to do about it? Educating people to become free thinkers - people who question authority - takes time. Most are too afraid of losing their jobs.....but wait, everyone is losing their jobs anyway. We need to empty the cup and start thinking outside authority. Maybe anarchy is just around the corner.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» education or indoctrination?
Posted by: socialpsych
» It (indoctrination) starts infancy...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: It (indoctrination) starts infancy...
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» RE: education or indoctrination?
Posted by: TomTom
» Wiseman controls the rights to his films
Posted by: mclemens
» RE: education or indoctrination?
Posted by: praedor
» good book for all to read
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» You are confusing Authority with Authoritarinism, aka Tyranny!
Posted by: Cathyc
» I think your absolutely right, did you see the UTube of the police... handcuffing a 5 year old?
Posted by: Prophit
» Afraid of Authoritarians - just like the rest of his fellow Americans"
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: I think your absolutely right, did you see the UTube of the police... handcuffing a 5 year old?
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» Absolutely right about the select few......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: We're in the matrix now - we're not behind a plow....
Posted by: joebanana
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 12, 2009 1:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's one important distinction that makes the conclusions very disturbing: The subjects were under no real pressure to do what they were told. They were volunteers, probably expecting on some level to be manipulated. They knew that they could go home after the experiment with no consequences.
Concern about punishment, keeping your job, or social pressure, while not an excuse to commit horrific acts, is somewhat understandable when dealing with the average person. But the experiments seem to prove that people will do what they're told even when there are no carrots or sticks involved. It wasn't their boss, their pastor, their mother, or their peers telling them what to do; just some geek in a lab coat.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Its similar to the idea of the panopticon
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Excellent point Joshua -- please note that it was Foucault
Posted by: mclemens
» Remember, Milgram did have some interaction with the CIA...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: emember, Milgram did have some interaction with the CIA...
Posted by: greenPuker
» Yes, I remember people like you after 9-11 who said the same thing...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Yes, I remember people like you after 9-11 who said the same thing..YES.
Posted by: Captainmagic
» You know, until Bush I was for gun control for the very reasons....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Yes, I remember people like you after 9-11 who said the same thing..YES.
Posted by: TheLimit
» picked rather randomly
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: talkville on Feb 12, 2009 1:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And as the article quite correctly points out (in my opinion at least)in the last paragraph:
Milgram wrote, "When an individual wishes to stand in opposition to authority, he does best to find support for his position from others in his group. The mutual support provided by men for each other is the strongest bulwark we have against the excesses of authority."
Casuistry seems to be on steroids these days, and is enjoying quite a healthy resurgence. In such reasonings many monsters hide!
We must refuse to conceive of ourselves as means and to conceive of others as means. Only then do we have the possibility to collectively decide on what goals to set for ourselves and how to accomplish these.
Social democracy!!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» LOVE THE CHILD, SAVE THE PLANET !
Posted by: secr
» RE: LOVE THE CHILD, SAVE THE PLANET !
Posted by: talkville
» Yes, the NATURAL needs of the child are ...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: LOVE THE CHILD, SAVE THE PLANET !
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: LOVE THE CHILD, SAVE THE PLANET !
Posted by: NeoLotus
» The 'herd instinct' ...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: The 'herd instinct' ...
Posted by: talkville
» RE: The uses of casuistry
Posted by: Xynyx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BST on Feb 12, 2009 1:39 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Those things that keep us from demonstrating cruelty displayed by others is an amalgam of upbringing, genetics, luck, emotional stability, socialization and serendipity.
Some people murder. I don't. But because one person can means I have that capability. I've just not been placed in their shoes.
But then, I have long been a practicing Buddhist and Buddhists believe that whatever one "waters" in the garden is what flourishes.
Water hate and it takes over; water serenity and peace and that pushes out the weeds. But neither potential disappears completely.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Very true
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on Feb 12, 2009 2:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FREE AMERICA
REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wildbill on Feb 12, 2009 2:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you want to know more, Dr, Zimbardo will lead you on a tour of hell at: http://www.prisonexp.org/ .
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» Zimbardo
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Zimbardo
Posted by: DaBear
» Zimbardo live web interview: 19.February,2009
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» RE: Zimbardo live web interview: 19.February,2009
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: e-sprinter
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Stanford and the Zimbardo Effect
Posted by: wrnhart
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 12, 2009 2:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sherman's students studied Milgram's experiments and predicted that they would not succumb to pressure from authority figures. Sherman then arranged for the students to be asked by an outsider to do something that they would not naturally be inclined to do. Most of the students did not live up to their confident predictions.
However, there was a significant amount of difference in the rate of compliance which suggests that when people consider moral dilemmas in advance they are somewhat more likely to do the right thing.
I guess they don't want to teach morality and ethics in boot camp, but it should be required in our schools. A poster upthread explains why.
Sherman's study can be found in Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol. 39, No. 2.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reinaldok on Feb 12, 2009 3:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
except for HOMO SAPIENS kills for the joy and pleasure of killing not because of need? Why can't we just follow the example of all the so called Wild Animals. Why are we so very quick to criticize and mock all those, who through hunger eat dog meat and snakes.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: BST
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Cat and mouse
Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: edgar1
» HOMO SAPIENS are not born sadists - they are MADE that way!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: HOMO SAPIENS are not born sadists - they are MADE that way!
Posted by: cmaciain
» here is no such thing as "born evil" - those who believe so, are either stupid or evil themselves!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: here is no such thing as "born evil" - those who believe so, are either stupid or evil themselves!
Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: HOMO SAPIENS are not born sadists - they are MADE that way!
Posted by: zhine
» Sociopaths
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: reinaldok
» RE: Cheney and his millions of buddies
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» Chimps have been found to kill for reasons other than safety...
Posted by: Prophit
» I forgot to mention, they only do it in groups... as individuals...
Posted by: Prophit
» I thought you said we were closest to the kangaroos
Posted by: Bliss Doubt
» actually we are closest, ironically, in DNA to Kangaroos than we are...
Posted by: Prophit
» Dolphins.
Posted by: -matti
» RE: Dolphins.
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» THE LYING KING, OBAMA
Posted by: reelman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Scott on Feb 12, 2009 3:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Bad babies?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Bad babies?
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Bad babies?
Posted by: Cybershaman
» cmaciain, You are confusing children with adults!
Posted by: Cathyc
» What babies have you been around?
Posted by: Beck
» RE: What babies have you been around?
Posted by: cmaciain
Comments are closed-
Posted by: folkie on Feb 12, 2009 3:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many people who were not loved as children, or were abused, who did not grow up to be without conscience but instead developed a bad attitude towards authority. They recognize abuse of power because that's what they got instead of mother's milk, and they oppose it with all their hearts and with their lives when necessary.
It is often those who had loving parents and good childhoods who grew up trusting authority and would never dream of questioning hierarchy, authoritarianism, or fascism, no matter what they were asked to do.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Right on, folkie!
Posted by: socialpsych
» Yeah, lost in space and with no one to turn to. plastered here to troll.
Posted by: WYGunston
» Thank goodness, we have more than our share of those already...
Posted by: Prophit
» folkie, you have no idea what LOVE is
Posted by: Cathyc
» I happen to agree with you... in fact, in a loving home you learn...
Posted by: Prophit
» Little harsh, don't you think?
Posted by: -matti
» RE: folkie, you have no idea what LOVE is
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield on Feb 12, 2009 3:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» read your darwin: it's all about survival unless you're a "christian"
Posted by: edgar1
» Without some semblance of morality from the past, you wouldn't be here.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» RE: Without some semblance of morality from the past, you wouldn't be here.
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Without some semblance of morality from the past, you wouldn't be here.
Posted by: WYGunston
» So you would have us all live like animals would you????
Posted by: Prophit
» No, we're not. And no groups will purify us.
Posted by: Beck
» Yeah but why settle for groups that will lie to you and then screw you?
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Let's just face it. We're an A-M-O-R-A-L nation, PERIOD.
Posted by: WYGunston
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Anthhh on Feb 12, 2009 4:01 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat
:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
_______________________________________
SO we can assist (Jesus) the Teacher by saying "Exactly %70 percent wider is the gate that leads to Hell than the gate tht leads to life"
I have answered correctly and no one has punished me.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Wide. . Is ..The ..Gate .. That ..Leads ..To...
Posted by: cmaciain
» ................WIDE is the ..........GATE ....
Posted by: Anthhh
» Ah... Math...
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Ah... Math...
Posted by: Anthhh
» RE: Wide. . Is ..The ..Gate .. That ..Leads ..To...
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» RE: Wide. . Is ..The ..Gate .. That ..Leads ..To...
Posted by: Anthhh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Philor on Feb 12, 2009 4:28 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now what do I mean clearly?
A moron who spent his childhood in some backwater place shooting deer and beer cans is much more likely to commit atrocity than a canditate in the physics Ph. D program at MIT.
You don't like this? Too bad it's the fact.
We are a chimp like species. We are very violent creatures that kill for food and also have the potential to kill the members of own species. Only culture and education can temper and/or remove this and show us why it must be tamed.
Somebody who had to enlist in the army to go kill third world people who never attack her, because she was economically in trouble in the richest country on earth, is NOT the most amazing subject of our species. Quite the contrary. It's somebody raw, on whom culture and civilization has not been able to lay down those lawyers I was talking above.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Yes
Posted by: using
» Morons come from all walks of life...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Let's explore this idea
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Let's explore this idea
Posted by: Kati
» Now see, you also have a distorted view.... then explain the...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Now see, you also have a distorted view.... then explain the...
Posted by: WingedGryphon
» abuse and education
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Feb 12, 2009 4:31 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is strengthened by sociological pressures of Role & status.Not only do we want to be in the group, we want to be seen as someone of substance and influence in the group. In the horse herd, if a over flighty horse spooks, many will not react -has cried 'wolf' too often and the 'lead' horse does not support their reaction,also the reason mares don't run just because a foal gets spooked.These are not recognized dominate nor of influential standing.
this is why there is no doubt that only the High ranking members who weild influence authorized torture. No low ranking, non influential memeber could 'move' the group to perform such acts. Instead the low ranking, nobody would have been run out of the 'herd', exposed by disassociation, because the 'herd'memebers would be following the leaders who retain the most influence (power) over the group- whether physically there or not. this is why Cheney and Rumsfeld are to be prosecuted for torture. These crimes were not comitted in only one location, but many and therefore Only those dominate over the 'Military' group could have initated such behaviors.
I've seen how one mare can get the entire herd chasing down one dog- full runs with teeth beared, even when singlely most these mares have no problems with MY dog (familiar with her scent)- that old grey Mare Weilded power over the entire herd to such an extent their normal individual reaction were negated.
fight or flight, 'herds' can quickly become a single entity, when a dominate member is initating the action.The only one who Out ranked that Old Grey mare and able to stop the attack was Me. I am considered dominate even over even that mare.So Rummy was equal in status to the mare, but Cheney was equal in domination to Me- I could have let the attack happen,but stepped in and stopped it.Rummy initiated and Cheney perpetuated War crimes.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: titusoye on Feb 12, 2009 5:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The truth is not in merely being obident to the authority, the truth is in the expected reward: tacit, explicit or implied. Man wants to deify himself at anytime, given the opportunity. Just like a broken glass vase or chalice could instantly become a sharp blade, so also can man under influence or authority become an oppressor, a torturer, or a murderer. The issue is not in our inability to question the authority, the issue has to do with our capability to agree with the authority. One thing which this article and the experiements failed to identify is our vulnerability to become what we want to change. That perhaps is the weakness of those who torture.
The Bible says it all "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" Genesis 6:5-7).
Another way to look at both experiements (Milgrams and Burger) is to consider the thoughts of mind as the given authority (something like Mind and the World Order according to C.I. Lewis). The question then is how does world order influence how world leaders interpret the thoughts of their minds. May be the question we should ask ourvesleves constantly is, "If I were in that position, would I have handled the situation differently?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 12, 2009 5:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the worst communist thugs like stalin, mao, trotsky and castro were well educated, middleclass, well read men. they just lacked empathy. millions starved, were shot, or froze to death.
but we all know that trying to make a profit is far worse. after all, the ny times and the cool one(blessed be his name) said so.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» The Commies are more honest than our owners
Posted by: billwald
» No
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Reds take the prize
Posted by: erjoell
» You are covering up mass murder
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: You are covering up mass murder.....and Bu$hCo
Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: You are covering up mass murder.....and Bu$hCo
Posted by: WingedGryphon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cathyc on Feb 12, 2009 5:44 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No. The real lens through which to understand the corrosion of our innate morality is REGLIGION. That is, being systematically (incrementally) indoctrinated by religious dogma as children.
Such systematic ideological childhood conditioning is a sure guarantee that one is as far removed from personal responsibility, as possible. The inevitable end result of all this 'programming' is, of course, an adult with an under-developed conscience, if not completely devoid of a conscience.
Milgram's infamous experiment merely serves to reinforce the warped (evil) stance of the authoritarians (sociopaths) who still dominate the so-called Christian West.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Don't be so quick to blame Christianity
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: That sonic boom you heard...
Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Don't be so quick to blame Christianity
Posted by: Cathyc
» Not in my observation or reading
Posted by: Beck
» RE: Not in my observation or reading
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Not in my observation or reading...Inquesition anyone?.. :-)
Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: Authority versus Authoritarian
Posted by: mbruton
» RE: Probably not religion though
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WYGunston on Feb 12, 2009 12:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Beck on Feb 12, 2009 10:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But it sounds lonely, no?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Feb 12, 2009 5:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The mania for wars in Afghanistan and Iraq seems to me to be an example of this mob mentality and although I never favored entering those wars, I have to admit being taken back by the widespread enthusiasm for going to war, seemingly by everyone around me. Faced with this kind of environment, I had to start questioning my own position and start to have doubts about whether I was overlooking something.
I never overcame my doubts, but I did become less vocal in my opposition to the war, and now I have to wonder whether my relative silence may have influenced others. Probably others kept quiet for the same reason and this may have affected me as well.
Reflecting on this gives me some sympathy for people who have been ordered to torture. They should have been stronger and refused, but this is asking quite a lot of a young soldier without much experience of the world.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Seems very natural to humans, and must be unlearned
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Anthhh on Feb 12, 2009 6:20 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Imagine a horse killing cows or vice versa?
I believe that people are herbivores because we have not pointed teeth like cats and dogs. ( Except the canines, which even horses and cows have)
I believe that the dawn of man saw humans as peaceful as a newborn baby. When hurt, we would naturally cry outloud, and hope to be heard by the forces that be.
In man's middle evolution, he is as the cursed person who has hurt another through his quest for the biggest sex. just like what happens to almost every person in the course of his lifetime.
Then towards the ending of Humankind's evolutionary wane, he will be as an elderly person... trying harder than ever to use all that he has learned and master the universe....but in reality, will wind up going out with only regrets, in a weak, fraile cackling whimper..Lashing out against even his own caregivers, because of severe pain.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» We do have pointed teeth.
Posted by: Beck
» So pointed teeth are why people are not peaceful ? LOL !
Posted by: WYGunston
» We can make your teeth whiter and straighter: insurance card please
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: ....... Cows Are Peaceful People
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: abemko on Feb 12, 2009 6:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suggest that we are born good, lose contact with that innate goodness through conditioning and trauma, but can choose to heal and regain that connection. Milgram should be celebrated for pointing out how bad the hurt is and letting us know what needs to change. We now have the great opportunity to retake control of our lives and start saying NO to the crowds who want us to see enemies on every side and "authorities" who know better than we do and YES to the most human of adages, do unto others as you would have them do unto to.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: PEAPLE ARE BORN GOOD THEN TRAUMATIZED
Posted by: cmaciain
» What you describe are the exceptions when genetically....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GuitarBill on Feb 12, 2009 9:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you click on his "Privacy Center" hyperlink, the server the link points to will install a keylogger on your computer, which is used to steal your credit card number, SSN, etc.
Please, report the comment to Alternet's staff.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Don't click on that link (IDENTITY THEFT!) - ALTERNET doesn't give a damn about this troll
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Don't click on that link (IDENTITY THEFT!) - ALTERNET doesn't give a damn about this troll
Posted by: GuitarBill
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Feb 12, 2009 10:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: athurlow on Feb 12, 2009 7:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dismas on Feb 12, 2009 7:09 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Capacity for cruelty following the lead of authorities
Posted by: Ocean tides
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Liberty G on Feb 12, 2009 7:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I talked to a rapist in prison about how he felt while committing his crime, he explained that while he remembered all the details about what had happened, it was as though he was watching from outside himself while doing it – there was no feeling. And the three other prisoners in the group immediately said, "I know what you mean."
I have always had trouble understanding seemingly callous, horrible crimes of violence. I now believe that one explanation is that people in certain painful situations, including those inflicting pain on others, withdraw completely from that human, feeling part – because the feelings are unbearable.
I found many other indications that, along with the capacity to do terrible things to others, there is a part of us that is revolted and sickened by such cruelty. A wise sage, approached by a questioner about the "two wolves" within, one loving, one violent, was asked which would win. His answer? "The one you feed."
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Feb 12, 2009 8:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Psychologically damaged humans imagine themselves to be superior to all the other animals
Posted by: Cathyc
» Just found this that might help ......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Just found this that might help ......
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: littlepitcher on Feb 12, 2009 8:22 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So humans submit themselves to the Malign Thug, and to all authority figures below that level.
Anyone who has endured a harassment campaign---anyone who has an anomalous appearance--anyone who volunteers to secede from the herd, even in one line-item only--can tell you who the enemy is. Everyone, and the apparent exception probably will report to them.
This isn't paranoia, it's history, experience, and biology, Deal with it.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Not true in our family.... anyone who acts like that is laughed at....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stellabloo on Feb 12, 2009 8:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Group A students were told that they were superior to Group B students and that Group B was there to serve Group A. In fact it was Group A's job to police Group B for obedience and conformity.
Things escalated rapidly. Group A students graduated from pep rallies to outright bullying during the 3 day study. Group A unanimously assumed their designated role - why resist when an authority figure tells you that you are better than others?
Now there's an experiment that, unfortunately, is duplicated time and time again :.(
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: We Still Suck.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: We Still Suck.
Posted by: WYGunston
» We're trying not to suck.
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
» Take your self-righteous fascism and get lost sir.
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Your post makes no sense
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» It's time for Group B to fight back like a hardcore vigilante and kick Group A's ASS !
Posted by: WYGunston
» Is Group B cutting class?
Posted by: edgar1
» Pure bullshit. Group B is playing by the rules while Group A is doing all the C-H-E-A-T-I-N-G and
Posted by: Jennifer Bedingfield
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peacelf on Feb 12, 2009 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To further demonstrate, one need only look at the case of Adolph Eichmann, the Nazi SS oficer in charge of sending Jews to the death camps. Hannah Arendt, author of Eichmann in Jerusalem, posited the idea of the Banality of Evil after observing and reporting on Eichmann's trial in the early 1960's.
Eichmann, Arendt argued, was nothing more than a bureaucrat, who had no particular hatred of Jews, but was following orders and trying to get promoted. Eichmann was part of the culture of evil that existed in Nazi Germany. Cultural evil is much more nefarious than the actions of a psychopathic madman, because in enlists ordinary people in extraordinary acts of evil.
When radical author and Colorado university professor Ward Churchill called the Wall St. traders in the World Trade Centers "little Eichmann" he was referring to the traders who profited from the death and destruction of war. Their claim that they are "just doing their jobs" is the Banality of evil Arendt described in her work.
The recent revelations of Wall St malfeasance and the lack of concern for average citizens suffering in this economic turmoil, and the exorbitant pay, bonuses and private jets of the rich and powerful further demonstrate the culture of "disconnect" for the suffering of average people that corporate executives live in their penthouse offices.
Critical pedagogy, a small branch of educational theory, offers a model for an educational system that would teach students to act with critical consciousness, to be active citizens in a democratic society, to be cultural critics with the ability to deconstruct their own experiences and "awaken" moral and ethical behavior by teaching young people to see the "Other" as human, with their own desires and hopes.
Milgrams experiment does suggest that we all have the capacity for evil, but I think we all have an equal capacity for good, too, given the right education.
peace
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Ward must be right cause he's a Native; ummmm maybe he is?
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Ward must be right--Read Arendt...
Posted by: peacelf
» Blind Obedience creates the Perfect Serf or Soldier ...
Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: Traditional Education castrates curiosity...
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lindawageck1 on Feb 12, 2009 8:44 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
reacted differently? Of course you would have; which is to say age means everything
when it comes to not being a 'sheep'.
Hey, sociologists! Buy a vowel and get a clue! Stop coming to huge campus full of 20 year old students who don't yet manage their own lives, to find people to participate in your experiments only to claim we are ALL like them!! Stop it!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Self-righteous rightwing troll.
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Self-righteous rightwing troll.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» "Buy a vowel and get a clue!" LOL! Nice one!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: A women centered experiment has been going on for 100s of years.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: A women centered experiment has been going on for 100s of years.
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Lets see, where did circumcision originate??? Could that be ...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Feb 12, 2009 8:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#@!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: ver been in love?
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: eplawutsky on Feb 12, 2009 8:52 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Mixing up "science" and a "stunt"
Posted by: laoma
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leland61 on Feb 12, 2009 8:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Death Camps - Nazi Germany
Death Camps - Pol Pot
Death Camps - Stalinist Russia
Rendition and torture - USA
False imprisonment and torture - USA
Use of nuclear weapons on Civilian populations - USA not once but twice.
MY God!!!! the list could go on and on and on.
Wake up. Human beings are capable and in fact engage in very human depravity - depravity that doesn't exist in any other species and so is rightly human depravity not inhuman depravity.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: What a stupid question.
Posted by: Beck
» Yes, your right....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mwildfire on Feb 12, 2009 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We really need to look at what separates the one-third from the two-thirds.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Good points, mwildfire
Posted by: alternetty
» One-third of us are different from the remainder (herd)
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Anthhh on Feb 12, 2009 9:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We only think twice when others take the initiative.
Fear not to take the initiative. The TV has stolen the courage from us, and we must turn off the TV, and avoid excessive exchanges with those who use TV,..in order to unchain our thinking, originality and personal characther.
A Wise Man recently told me that no person can say who is important, and who is not.
If a Human baby is born into a wise loving and just family, and then falls into overloads of exposure to children from unjust and unwise families. The fair and wise child may make a bad choice, and become excessivly familiar to the way of wicked
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» I see a point, but beg to differ
Posted by: Beck
» RE: I see a point, but beg to differ
Posted by: WYGunston
» Media lies, Deceives, and STEALS OUR COURAGE TO DREAM.
Posted by: Anthhh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 12, 2009 2:35 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Feb 12, 2009 11:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is precisely because this principle is not most people's most closely held principle, that we are able to ignore the individual sovereignty of others.
If we start demanding this right for ourselves it will be easier and more natural to respect it in others.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I agree
Posted by: WYGunston
» RE: Unfortunately I think you are right
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ClassAct on Feb 12, 2009 12:31 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: RolyatLeahcim on Feb 12, 2009 12:41 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Question
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hilaryuk on Feb 12, 2009 12:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Human beings are not blank slates
Posted by: sirios
» RE: Human beings are not blank slates
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bliss Doubt on Feb 12, 2009 3:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reinaldok on Feb 12, 2009 1:04 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pdxjoe on Feb 12, 2009 1:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like how Milgram here qualifies authority and what about it we seek to resist as an excess. It's all too easy to reduce a discussion about authority into a ridiculous decision between bucking of authority as such or complete submission, where resisting authority means abandoning or withdrawing from it. By talking about an excess of authority, I think Milgram opens a door to a way of thinking and talking about authority that is not so black and white. It's not entirely novel though.
Rousseau wrote of two kinds of self-love: amour-propre and amour de soi. The latter is a natural and positive love we have for our existence/life as such, while the former is a uniquely human tendency towards vanity and pride. They often look the same, but it is amour-propre that humans engage when doing what they do in order to be recognized by others as superior. This debases not only others whose weakness or pain may validate our sense of superiority, but ourselves too---we who turn ourselves into a means for the end of validation in an other.
Maybe we can apply a similar distinction to how we talk about and relate to authority. What resistance would be possible, in theory or on the ground, without some sense of authority? I don't just mean authority in the brute meaning of common-sense, but also in the sense that it shares with the word "author." That is to say, those in authority direct and cultivate as much as, and potentially more than, they control and stifle. That excess of authority I pointed out in the beginning is the pivot point of this distinction, and concretely it marks when we talk about "government" as a power independent of The People and when we talk about exerting State-power as our own. That excess is the object of our own belief that we are outside (possibly) of power or it is outside (and over-against) us. There was a great quotation of Cicero at the end of a recent article to this end: freedom is participation in power.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: truthlover on Feb 12, 2009 1:19 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That would have caused a different dynamic: either way the subject would not have been isolated. I wonder how many would conform then?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Vik on Feb 12, 2009 2:06 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgar1 on Feb 12, 2009 2:34 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the Asians took up where the Germans left off, then the Africans revealed their "humanity" if not intelligence.
I say N. america is next. Obama will stir the pot. Let's see who turns up the heat. Hint: the group that understands where heat comes from. Ho Ho.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 12, 2009 2:52 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Anthhh on Feb 12, 2009 2:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Did you ever see how the "flea circus" train the fleas?
People would be much more original, creative, social, interested and patient with each other, have more character, etc X 10000 !
TV and Media corporations steal our dreams. The corporations which own it use the same psycology that is behind the scientists in those experiments use. It isnt difficult at all to do. Nor to get away with. They call it innocent-sounding and official-sounding names like "Advertising, Marketing, etc"
No profiteers can flourish in a society of people that thinks for themselves, dreams for themselves. Not when they can SELL you your dreams and thoughts. Now turn it off. Turn off the news. read read read read.
cancel your suscription to cable and/or satelite. It is a ticket to your self destruction with you name signed in your own blood.
In just 30 minutes, an average audio dialogue can place 1000 thoughts in your head!! Thoughts that you either have no need for, AND that WILL cause harm to, and interfere with your thought processes.
Sitting to listen like sheep to orations written by unknowns behind the stage, is an insult to yourself. Wake up. Media needs to change it's job description. To one of %100. sacrifice, rather than %100. self-service.
__
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Conversely
Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: Conversely
Posted by: Anthhh
» RE: Conversely
Posted by: Anthhh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy on Feb 12, 2009 6:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FREE AMERICA
REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ellie on Feb 12, 2009 7:23 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the first rule is to do no harm... to anyone!!!
second rule is the development of a human subjects committee at research institutions where if someone wants to study certain social or psychological conditions there has to be an approval from the review board that is made up of faculty and others ensuring the safety and well-being of even voluntary human subjects...
try to do an end run around these rules and you get kicked out of the professional organization, probably sued and liable on your own for any injuries or damages... top it off with being blacklisted from ever doing your profession again...
that's why the old studies are still being reviewed, they can't be updated in the old form...
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: hey, no hitting below the belt...
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: grkjr on Feb 12, 2009 7:55 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pelican beak on Feb 12, 2009 8:01 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The explanations given in the article, such as, "Indeed, what these factors demonstrate is not how easily people will harm another person, but how quickly people will cede their own authority to another person when they feel isolated, pressured and powerless," are clearly consequences of our culture - how we've organized ourselves and are taught to behave to be part of our society. What we've been indoctrinated to internalize is not universal.
Or at least it wasn't, 500 years ago, before the Xtians thugs from Europe got the bright idea to steal and impoverish everybody else in the world. The authoritarian bent of our cultural heritage probably helped us succeed in these wicked deeds, but we've lost most of the cultural diversity which once existed on Earth.
The heart of a culture's ethical strength comes from its religious framework, and ours is horrible. Crooked and corrupt church leaders are everywhere. Xtianity has long been more of a force for accepting hypocrisy than for calling it out and ostracizing it. The huge range of Xtian churches today - from the Phelps who claim "God hates fags," to Mother Theresa's work in Calcutta, clearly indicate Xtianity is nothing but whatever folks decide to project into it - there is no unifying set of values.
The work of most churches destroy, far than than develop, a strong personal moral compass. Church teachings are to do what you're told; to obey commandments instead of developing strong values of your own. In many Xtians, self-righteousness and knee-jerk response have replaced a functioning moral compass of their own. Many are kept in their church by being kept morally infantilized. Even atheists and secularists who grow up in our society still internalize the social-organizing authoritarian hierarchy, and blindness to moral hypocrisy. No wonder so many in our culture will willingly do what they know is wrong.
Not all people suffered from this cultural dysfunction. A few of the largest other religions survive, but countless smaller ones were destroyed by Xtian missionaries, who forced the people into theirs, effectively destroying the glue which held them together. Any culture visited by missionaries, enjoys roads and vehicles, electricity, or commercial radio service, I'd consider to have been destroyed by our influence.
But until this experiment has been duplicated among people from a wide variety of cultures very different than ours, I'd consider any conclusions about "humanity" to be bogus. It only tells about the culture of the participants.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bob Parker on Feb 12, 2009 9:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On a similar note to Milgram and Zimbardo, the journalist Milton Mayer conducted his own research into how many of the German people became accomplices to the Nazi regime. He went back to Germany in 1954 and conducted in-depth interviews with about 10 different people who were adults during the Nazi regime. He published his book titled “They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-45" (University of Chicago Press, Chicago & London: 1955). It offers some very illuminating insights. I found one passage especially poignant in which a German professor of Philology describes the insidious process by which a democratic society can slowly transform itself into a fascist state. It is a passage (and book) worth reading. It complements the work of Milgram and Zimbardo beautifully. This passage is published on my website ( www.focusreframed.com/?p=77/ )
(Please forgive the lack of hyperlinks; cut and paste the 2 links above. I could not figure out how to create hyperlinks for this comment.)
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Linked Text
Posted by: TheLimit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mbruton on Feb 12, 2009 10:35 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since it's inception the education system has never been about educating children, rather, it has been and still is about indoctrination to authoritarianism and producing obedient workers. Even as a child I could see it before knowing the horrible facts of the matter. Try reading up on the words of John D. Rockefeller, John Dewey, and Henry Ford. Our education system was modeled on the Prussian education system which was designed to produce obedient mercenary soldiers and worked quite well for that purpose.
Is it any wonder then that an average American will commit atrocities and then say, "It vas not mein fault, I vas only following orders".
Get a clue, this is not human nature it is the result of 12+ years of enforced psychological mind control techniques being forced upon helpless children.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Yeah right....
Posted by: WingedGryphon
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Old Uncle Dave on Feb 16, 2009 2:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Starbucks' Cop-Out to Gun Nuts: Customers Served Coffee While Strapped
ACORN Smear Collaborator Claims Persecution to Raise Money for Her Legal Troubles
Bad Policies Are Really What's Driving California's Huge Prison Costs


