COMMENTS: 100
The Right's Jack Bauer Fantasy: 'Clip the Electrodes to His Balls and Turn on the Juice'
Sign up to stay up to date on the latest Civil Liberties headlines via email.
Credit where credit is due. The TV show "24" is probably the most significant piece of political drama in the last decade.
On one hand, it is very likely that Barack Obama got elected because America had already had a serious black presidential candidate (one season) and two black presidents (one season each). And he was always the most decent guy in the room. Often, the only decent guy in the room. Just like Obama.
On the other hand, there's torture.
* Terrorists are going to nuke Los Angeles in three hours.
* Agent Jack Bauer has a suspect who knows where the bomb is.
* If Jack Bauer tortures the suspect, he can force him to say where it is, get there in 2 hours and 59 minutes, stop the bomb, and save 10 million people.
* What should, what must, Jack Bauer do?
That's a no-brainer. Clip the electrodes to his balls and turn on the juice.
I don't know how many people have actually watched "24," but there's not a person in America who is not familiar with the "ticking-bomb scenario." It sounds so darn logical that it's hard not to buy into it. A remarkable number of people have.
Dick Cheney and Michael Chertoff (ex-head of Homeland Security) are big fans. They thought that they were directing real-life Jack Bauers.
Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said a Jack Bauer should not be prosecuted, because "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles. … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives."
If he were prosecuted, Alan Dershowitz has already laid out the defense!
As drama, the ticking bomb is thrilling. "24" is the "Perils of Pauline" on crack.
In reality, it is a pernicious and deceitful fantasy.
The reference point is, of course, 9/11. Before that day, we were soft and naïve. If only we had tortured someone, we could have stopped it. And saved American lives! That, of course, is utterly false.
We had quite enough information to have prevented 9/11. It had been gathered through normal and legal police and intelligence methods. It was not used due to bureaucratic infighting, ineptitude, incompetence, excess secrecy, and, most of all, the willful and pointed disregard of that information by Cheney, Condoleezza Rice and George W. Bush.
Now, we're smart and tough. We do torture light and outsource the really evil stuff. Has it worked?
In October 2001, the FBI put out a Most Wanted Terrorists list. It had 22 names on it. As of 2006, 17 of them were still at large. Including Osama bin Laden. Mullah Omar wasn't on the list. But he's the other guy we invaded Afghanistan to get. He's still around and actively leading the Taliban.
Yeah, well, I bet going "to the dark side" stopped a bunch of terrorist attacks.
No.
None that we know of.
Yeah, of course not. When our secret intelligence services secretly foil a secret terrorist plot, it's gotta be secret! National effin' Security! Period. Dot. Exclamation point! End quote!
No.
The Bush administration trumpeted every arrest, capture or kill they ever made:
- The Lackawanna Seven
- The Sears Tower Plot
- The Shoe Bomber
- Jose Padilla, who was going to use a "dirty bomb."
Each and every one of them sounded like a job for Jack Bauer when they were first announced. Then, somehow, all the "terrorists" they caught turned out to be inept losers. The terror plots turned out to be bull sessions, attempts to buy weapons from FBI agents or visits to Afghanistan long before 9/11.
Bush was even willing to disrupt a two-year, 600-man, British terrorism investigation in order to get a good headline before the 2006 election. The result was that "the mastermind" escaped after he was arrested, and the prosecution of the plotters fell apart due to lack of evidence.
If there had been a real plot and these guys had actually stopped it, they would not have kept it secret, they would have made John McCain campaign commercials out of it.
Here's a real life ticking-bomb scenario: It's 1943. A German soldier has been captured.
We have a lot of people in captivity today, in Guantanamo, in Iraqi prisons, in secret CIA prisons around the world and prisons run by other countries. It has been amply demonstrated that many of the people in captivity are not "terrorists."
But back in World War II, when we captured that German, we could be dead sure certain that he was an actual enemy. He was part of an organization planning to kill Americans in the immediate future. Within hours or, at most, days. We could be certain that they had lots of weapons of mass destruction. And factories that were making more.
He represented a country that committed war crimes, crimes against humanity and that had mistreated POWs and civilians in violation of the Geneva Conventions.
So let's torture the mutha-fuggin' Nazi pig-plugger! That's a no-brainer, right?
Apparently not.
He refuses to give more than his name, rank and service number. We say OK and accept our obligation to feed and cloth him, give him medical attention, allow him to follow his religion, read books and even have access to a musical instrument if that is his inclination.
Stay up to date with the latest Civil Liberties headlines via email
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Zeugitai on Feb 5, 2009 1:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a peon American, a powerless citizen-consumer, I can do little more than this: boycott the bullshit.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: Comrade Rutherford
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: maxfactor
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Woodpecker on Feb 5, 2009 2:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Terry
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Is this show why the Right thinks Bush kept us safe?
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME- JACK BAUER IS NOT A REAL PERSON!!!
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME- JACK BAUER IS NOT A REAL PERSON!!!
Posted by: Feltixx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Comrade Rutherford on Feb 5, 2009 4:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We hanged Germans and Japanese just 70 years ago for doing EXACTLY what the Republican Party is doing now. Waterboarding IS exactly the same today as when it was done by the Catholic Church during the Inquisition. There is NO argument, waterboarding is TORTURE and torture is ALWAYS wrong!
Anyone that says otherwise is also saying that America was on the wrong side during WWII. Anyone that defends torture is directly saying that we should have sided with Hitler! There is NO middle ground, there is NO other argument. Bush&Cheney = Hitler in the area of torture.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: That's the whole point
Posted by: ptoddchesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Scientz on Feb 5, 2009 6:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I never condoned torture, I think this article has provided the needed critical language to confront those of my friends who think jihadists need be shown no mercy.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 5, 2009 6:18 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've caught sinppets of "24"--a gimmick that melds real(ity)-time TV with a "The Rock" like crisis. In the rock, time moved from action to drama sequence and the terrorists were angry U.S. soldiers; in "24" the plausibility of a single person consistently being in a position to save the day becomes more of a fantastical study in superheroes.
"24" Bauer is a substitute for the "Superman", and "Batman" television shows from yesteryear, but more close to that of "The Lone Ranger". Better special effects don't really alter the message, if you really buy into the idea that commercial-driven media is meant to have a message, rather than keep you hanging on until the next Tide or Beer commercial, sillies.
The notion that television conditions our behavior in maladaptive ways remains highly debatable. The author's suggestion that seeing Jack Bauer or The Green Lantern or Rainbow Brite light up someone's genitals would make us more or less willing to do or support the same is easily dismissed, in the absence of any evidence demonstrating such a phenomenon.
P.S.--My television is equipped with a feature I call the "Power Button". It's all the rage these days!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: Feltixx
» Ah, but the argument is that TV affects "the other", "the sinner"...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: americansheep
» If that's all you're looking for...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» COPS v Reality
Posted by: abbadon2007
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: Parcival01
» Media tie-ins are nothing new, though.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: saadasim on Feb 5, 2009 6:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Shehova on Feb 5, 2009 6:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: O, The Irony!
Posted by: Midway54
» RE: O, The Irony!
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QQOblivion on Feb 5, 2009 7:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Torture is second only to outright murder as the worst thing someone can do to someone else's physical and mental being. (You say rape is? Well, rape is torture. And some US-held "war on terror" detainees were violently sodomized by US personnel, or were the recipients of other forms of sexual abuse. I don't know if Jack Bowel actually sexually abused anyone on the show 24, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.)
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Violation
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: Violation
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Violation
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: batman
Posted by: abbadon2007
» RE: batman
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: batman
Posted by: liz_imp
» RE: Violation
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CarlaWaters on Feb 5, 2009 8:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18433.html
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Did You Mean Extraordinary Renditions, Not Faith-Based Initiatives?
Posted by: QQOblivion
» "Faith based" is more like the phoney "honor code". Elites aren't punished and are "free" to
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: Did You Mean Extraordinary Renditions, Not Faith-Based Initiatives?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» RE: Did You Mean Extraordinary Renditions, Not Faith-Based Initiatives?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Did You Mean Extraordinary Renditions, Not Faith-Based Initiatives?
Posted by: fitzjohn
Comments are closed-
Posted by: neverquit on Feb 5, 2009 9:04 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The legitimization of torture works. It is always to protect our families from others who understand no language but violence and who posess no goal except our total destruction. This too is nothing new.
If we believe that torture is both morally wrong and ineffective in its stated purpose, how can we stop it?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: hsyterical american racist
Posted by: 876
» RE: Is "hsyterical" your word of the day?
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: somebody
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» somebody
Posted by: neverquit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 876 on Feb 5, 2009 9:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Axiom69 on Feb 5, 2009 10:47 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My Answer: To save 10 million lives including my own family and an American city... I'd hook up the jumper cables and crank up the juice. But that's just me. Now rate me a one but as you do just think of what you would REALLY do to save your family.
I do not condone torture but I thought using the scenario from 24 was a poor choice for the author because I think most people would do anything to save their own family especially if the "victim" was the person who was responsible for putting them in jeopardy in the first place.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: Feltixx
» The two of you...
Posted by: dbarber
» RE: The two of you...
Posted by: Axiom69
» I say that Axiom69 has info and we need to get it now!
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: Keeping people safe is my job.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Keeping people safe is my job.
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Keeping people safe is my job.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: Midway54
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: iolanthe
» Constitutional rights supercede merely extending a lifespan
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: Axiom69
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Feb 5, 2009 11:08 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#@!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: ATTN: torture-loving ...
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daniel1982 on Feb 5, 2009 12:24 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Very likely"?. You guys are insane. You really do think that little of people. We're just a bunch of dumbasses, waiting around for somebody to tell us what to think. Of course, the alternet staff writers are exempted - they are the free-thinkers.
//
Btw, "24" is a pretty popular show in Canada - does that mean Canada will setup its own version of Gitmo?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxsmart on Feb 5, 2009 12:26 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
War itself is a similar false profit. It accepts collateral damage all the time as necessary and it accepts too often the ends justifies the means. Wars are always started with lies, half-truths and disinformation and the military uses psy ops and false claims and disinformation to assist in winning. They cannot be believed, they lie to deceive the enemy and at times, if necessary, to deceive, hide, and misrepresent to their own people.
The Japanese press glorified the soldiers in China who competed in head chopping contests and the people overlooked it and focused on pictures of soldiers handing out candy to children who later were killed. They saw themselves as saving Asia from colonialist powers and domination.
We are PARANOID plain and simple, and as such willing to give up our principles and love to watch shows where we are certain who is innocent and guilty. It is not certain someone subjected to torture is guilty or knows something so what about all those tortured who knew nothing and were guilty of nothing? One thing is sure they will never be the same again, they could inform others of your techniques, of your barbarity, and they could just plain be unstable to the point of being dangerous to themselves and others. Then what do you do? The choices and options just get worse and worse and the compromises you make also get worse and worse and by the end you are as barbaric or worse than those you felt justified in fighting.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Feb 5, 2009 12:45 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I watched one and a half episodes of 24
Posted by: Feltixx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MausMasher54 on Feb 5, 2009 2:50 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Forgot......
Posted by: MausMasher54
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chief of okeefe on Feb 5, 2009 6:41 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar on Feb 6, 2009 11:38 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Beats the heck out of getting your nails pulled out with pliers, Or your head slowly cut off.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Waterbord George W. Bush
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jnutter on Feb 5, 2009 3:00 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I personally think that 24 is a highly subversive program that does not neatly package any ideology. Everyone talks about the torture angle (mission accomplished!) but there are many other angles to this show. For one, what other show asserted the possibility (and then spent two whole seasons exploring it) that 9/11 may have been caused by officials within the white house administration in order to drum up support for a war for oil? Yes a lot of conspiracy nuts have discussed this, but name a mainstream show that touched this issue? And one on FOX of all places!
As for torture... if Jack Bauer is the hero... he has been utterly destroyed by what he did. The information he has obtained through torture has not always been reliable... sometimes leading to tragedy. What is the lesson there?
I'm not defending the show, small minds will certainly watch it and see only that "torture is good" but what I am saying is that it is not that simple, and that is the message of 24 if you actually watch it.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Subversive
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Subversive
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: Subversive
Posted by: Jnutter
» RE: Subversive
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: donl51 on Feb 5, 2009 3:09 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Xynyx on Feb 5, 2009 3:11 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The show is riveting. And it tries to justify all sorts of entirely inappropriate behavior. I don't buy that crap. The show is also misogynistic. I don't like that part, either.
I don't and won't support torture. I do support prosecution of war criminals and anyone suspected of crimes against humanity... like the GW Bush Administration. Let's get on with that.
While I'm at it... I also like to play violent video games. I like going home and shooting zombies/aliens/"bad guys" in the head to relax... ON MY TV. I know the difference. I don't support such behavior in real life.
If you lack a good filter to keep your imagination separate from reality, you shouldn't watch or participate in such things. And there is where (I think) the crux of the problem lies.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Confession
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Confession
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: Confession
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: monkeywrench on Feb 5, 2009 4:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was one word you left out of the list of reasons 9/11 wasn't prevented; a word that is heavily loaded in its implication, but points to the need for a complete and UNBIASED investigation of the worst man-made tragedy in american history.
That word is : complicity
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chief of okeefe on Feb 5, 2009 6:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Arrest the Bush lawyers today!!
Posted by: donl51
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dyolfknip on Feb 5, 2009 10:14 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: a new G.I.JOE movie.... O.M.F.G.!!!
Posted by: Feltixx
» You say "masculine" like it's a bad thing?
Posted by: rickiey
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TerryS on Feb 6, 2009 1:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kudos, kudos, and more kudos to Alternet for
covering torture, and the pernicious effects
of "24".
One thing I would like to see more coverage of
is the Real Reason for Torture.
Namely, torture is an essential tool of dictatorships
and totalitarian governments everywhere.
Nothing is more effective at terrorizing a
populace into submission than torture. That is
why Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, etc... all used
torture as an essential tool to crush opposition.
And *that* is why Bush and Company were sooo
anxious to legalize (for themselves) torture,
and to institutionalize torture. Karl Rove
argued for a "permanent Republican majority",
they knew that torture would be an essential
component.
I don't know that "24" was explicitly
created as a propaganda tool for the Republicans.
Instead, I believe that authoritarian personalities
like torture, and instinctively understand it's
value in getting and keeping dictatorial power.
Dictatorships need torture, Free societies are
destroyed by torture.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: Kati
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: Jnutter
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: Jnutter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: beinhart on Feb 6, 2009 8:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The application of these concepts to members of the Bush Administration would make them certainly subject to trial and probably to conviction.
That includes the lawyers who came up with the concepts that justified evasion of civilized restraints.
The explanation of why "good Germans" co-operated, even endorsed the Nazis, sounds almost exactly like the response of Americans to the Bush excesses.
They co-operated because they had 24 types of fantasies and framed reality in such false theories. We sentenced several of them to be hanged because of it.
The point is to return to the high moral ground that we claimed we were taking when we brought other people to trial.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Nuremberg, Responsibility, The Rule of Law
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Nuremberg, Responsibility, The Rule of Law
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Pirate1 on Feb 7, 2009 12:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Police today are in a social class by themselves, they can in most cases harrass, abuse and even kill with impunity. Like Catholic priests that move to another parish, they just move to another city and continue on a different force. As a carreer field I think for the most part it attracts former high school bullies and gives them an outlet to continue that behavior only with legal, lethal weaponry. Cop shows just keep the notion alive that police of all stripes need to be brutal and to "protect" us from ourselves. That's why they get off when eight or more cops fire multiple times at a man reaching for his wallet, or like in Oakland a few weeks back, a man lying prostrate on the ground, doing everything the cops asked of him. We have allowed this elite class to grow in our midst by buying into all the fear messages we get every second on TV news.
You'll notice that in all these shows the "criminals" are either dark skinned and speak with accents or they look like elder hippies, people "proper" americans are supposed to shun, I gather. I've noticed over the years that due to my tendency to wear my hair on the longish side, that people in mall culture give me wide berth when we pass and I believe that is directly attributable to television's unwaivering depiction of long haired men as either drug dealers or criminals.
So yes, television DOES affect the way people behave in the world. Not everyone has the discernment to know that Bauer is "just a character like Batman" any more than to realize every man with longish hair is NOT a danger because that is how they are always depicted... in fact, I would argue that today MOST people don't. Hell, we just spent 8 years "respecting" a fool because every time he came on TV there was the the flag and Presidential Seal. One day a lot of people will collectively wake up to just how much that respect was manipulated out of them.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jfingers1 on Feb 9, 2009 8:54 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First you traumatize the subject then plant ideas that turn out to be absurd on further examination.
Passports are made of paper, they don't survive fireballs. Israelis being arrested that day and their van(s) testing positive for explosives is criminally suspicious.ICTS a security company of Israeli origin servicing all airline and ports involved in the hijackings as well as the 7/7 bombings needs a look see.
A guy who buys a white elephant complex for 124 mil and then collects 4.6bil. 3 months later makes me curious. The odds of 3 steel framed fire coded skyscrapers collapsing in under 10 seconds each by oxygen starved fires is a stretch and a statistical impossibility.
If the government lies about everything, and they do, do you really think they are telling you the truth of 911, you would have to be completely devoid of common sense.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Zeugitai on Feb 5, 2009 1:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a peon American, a powerless citizen-consumer, I can do little more than this: boycott the bullshit.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: Comrade Rutherford
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: maxfactor
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: Propaganda
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Woodpecker on Feb 5, 2009 2:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Terry
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Is this show why the Right thinks Bush kept us safe?
Posted by: iolanthe
» RE: FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME- JACK BAUER IS NOT A REAL PERSON!!!
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME- JACK BAUER IS NOT A REAL PERSON!!!
Posted by: Feltixx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Comrade Rutherford on Feb 5, 2009 4:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We hanged Germans and Japanese just 70 years ago for doing EXACTLY what the Republican Party is doing now. Waterboarding IS exactly the same today as when it was done by the Catholic Church during the Inquisition. There is NO argument, waterboarding is TORTURE and torture is ALWAYS wrong!
Anyone that says otherwise is also saying that America was on the wrong side during WWII. Anyone that defends torture is directly saying that we should have sided with Hitler! There is NO middle ground, there is NO other argument. Bush&Cheney = Hitler in the area of torture.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: That's the whole point
Posted by: ptoddchesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Scientz on Feb 5, 2009 6:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I never condoned torture, I think this article has provided the needed critical language to confront those of my friends who think jihadists need be shown no mercy.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 5, 2009 6:18 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've caught sinppets of "24"--a gimmick that melds real(ity)-time TV with a "The Rock" like crisis. In the rock, time moved from action to drama sequence and the terrorists were angry U.S. soldiers; in "24" the plausibility of a single person consistently being in a position to save the day becomes more of a fantastical study in superheroes.
"24" Bauer is a substitute for the "Superman", and "Batman" television shows from yesteryear, but more close to that of "The Lone Ranger". Better special effects don't really alter the message, if you really buy into the idea that commercial-driven media is meant to have a message, rather than keep you hanging on until the next Tide or Beer commercial, sillies.
The notion that television conditions our behavior in maladaptive ways remains highly debatable. The author's suggestion that seeing Jack Bauer or The Green Lantern or Rainbow Brite light up someone's genitals would make us more or less willing to do or support the same is easily dismissed, in the absence of any evidence demonstrating such a phenomenon.
P.S.--My television is equipped with a feature I call the "Power Button". It's all the rage these days!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: Feltixx
» Ah, but the argument is that TV affects "the other", "the sinner"...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: americansheep
» If that's all you're looking for...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» COPS v Reality
Posted by: abbadon2007
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: Parcival01
» Media tie-ins are nothing new, though.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: I think the author reads a lot into television.
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: saadasim on Feb 5, 2009 6:47 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Shehova on Feb 5, 2009 6:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: O, The Irony!
Posted by: Midway54
» RE: O, The Irony!
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QQOblivion on Feb 5, 2009 7:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Torture is second only to outright murder as the worst thing someone can do to someone else's physical and mental being. (You say rape is? Well, rape is torture. And some US-held "war on terror" detainees were violently sodomized by US personnel, or were the recipients of other forms of sexual abuse. I don't know if Jack Bowel actually sexually abused anyone on the show 24, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.)
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Violation
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: Violation
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Violation
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: batman
Posted by: abbadon2007
» RE: batman
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: batman
Posted by: liz_imp
» RE: Violation
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: CarlaWaters on Feb 5, 2009 8:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18433.html
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Did You Mean Extraordinary Renditions, Not Faith-Based Initiatives?
Posted by: QQOblivion
» "Faith based" is more like the phoney "honor code". Elites aren't punished and are "free" to
Posted by: CarlaWaters
» RE: Did You Mean Extraordinary Renditions, Not Faith-Based Initiatives?
Posted by: fitzjohn
» RE: Did You Mean Extraordinary Renditions, Not Faith-Based Initiatives?
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Did You Mean Extraordinary Renditions, Not Faith-Based Initiatives?
Posted by: fitzjohn
Comments are closed-
Posted by: neverquit on Feb 5, 2009 9:04 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The legitimization of torture works. It is always to protect our families from others who understand no language but violence and who posess no goal except our total destruction. This too is nothing new.
If we believe that torture is both morally wrong and ineffective in its stated purpose, how can we stop it?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: hsyterical american racist
Posted by: 876
» RE: Is "hsyterical" your word of the day?
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: somebody
Posted by: MyLeftFoot
» somebody
Posted by: neverquit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 876 on Feb 5, 2009 9:58 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Axiom69 on Feb 5, 2009 10:47 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My Answer: To save 10 million lives including my own family and an American city... I'd hook up the jumper cables and crank up the juice. But that's just me. Now rate me a one but as you do just think of what you would REALLY do to save your family.
I do not condone torture but I thought using the scenario from 24 was a poor choice for the author because I think most people would do anything to save their own family especially if the "victim" was the person who was responsible for putting them in jeopardy in the first place.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: Feltixx
» The two of you...
Posted by: dbarber
» RE: The two of you...
Posted by: Axiom69
» I say that Axiom69 has info and we need to get it now!
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: Keeping people safe is my job.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Keeping people safe is my job.
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Keeping people safe is my job.
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: Midway54
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: iolanthe
» Constitutional rights supercede merely extending a lifespan
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Devils Advocate
Posted by: Axiom69
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Feb 5, 2009 11:08 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#@!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: ATTN: torture-loving ...
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daniel1982 on Feb 5, 2009 12:24 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Very likely"?. You guys are insane. You really do think that little of people. We're just a bunch of dumbasses, waiting around for somebody to tell us what to think. Of course, the alternet staff writers are exempted - they are the free-thinkers.
//
Btw, "24" is a pretty popular show in Canada - does that mean Canada will setup its own version of Gitmo?
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxsmart on Feb 5, 2009 12:26 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
War itself is a similar false profit. It accepts collateral damage all the time as necessary and it accepts too often the ends justifies the means. Wars are always started with lies, half-truths and disinformation and the military uses psy ops and false claims and disinformation to assist in winning. They cannot be believed, they lie to deceive the enemy and at times, if necessary, to deceive, hide, and misrepresent to their own people.
The Japanese press glorified the soldiers in China who competed in head chopping contests and the people overlooked it and focused on pictures of soldiers handing out candy to children who later were killed. They saw themselves as saving Asia from colonialist powers and domination.
We are PARANOID plain and simple, and as such willing to give up our principles and love to watch shows where we are certain who is innocent and guilty. It is not certain someone subjected to torture is guilty or knows something so what about all those tortured who knew nothing and were guilty of nothing? One thing is sure they will never be the same again, they could inform others of your techniques, of your barbarity, and they could just plain be unstable to the point of being dangerous to themselves and others. Then what do you do? The choices and options just get worse and worse and the compromises you make also get worse and worse and by the end you are as barbaric or worse than those you felt justified in fighting.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Feb 5, 2009 12:45 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I watched one and a half episodes of 24
Posted by: Feltixx
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MausMasher54 on Feb 5, 2009 2:50 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» Forgot......
Posted by: MausMasher54
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chief of okeefe on Feb 5, 2009 6:41 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Caleb Darkstar on Feb 6, 2009 11:38 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Beats the heck out of getting your nails pulled out with pliers, Or your head slowly cut off.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Waterbord George W. Bush
Posted by: Kati
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jnutter on Feb 5, 2009 3:00 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I personally think that 24 is a highly subversive program that does not neatly package any ideology. Everyone talks about the torture angle (mission accomplished!) but there are many other angles to this show. For one, what other show asserted the possibility (and then spent two whole seasons exploring it) that 9/11 may have been caused by officials within the white house administration in order to drum up support for a war for oil? Yes a lot of conspiracy nuts have discussed this, but name a mainstream show that touched this issue? And one on FOX of all places!
As for torture... if Jack Bauer is the hero... he has been utterly destroyed by what he did. The information he has obtained through torture has not always been reliable... sometimes leading to tragedy. What is the lesson there?
I'm not defending the show, small minds will certainly watch it and see only that "torture is good" but what I am saying is that it is not that simple, and that is the message of 24 if you actually watch it.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Subversive
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Subversive
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: Subversive
Posted by: Jnutter
» RE: Subversive
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: donl51 on Feb 5, 2009 3:09 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Xynyx on Feb 5, 2009 3:11 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The show is riveting. And it tries to justify all sorts of entirely inappropriate behavior. I don't buy that crap. The show is also misogynistic. I don't like that part, either.
I don't and won't support torture. I do support prosecution of war criminals and anyone suspected of crimes against humanity... like the GW Bush Administration. Let's get on with that.
While I'm at it... I also like to play violent video games. I like going home and shooting zombies/aliens/"bad guys" in the head to relax... ON MY TV. I know the difference. I don't support such behavior in real life.
If you lack a good filter to keep your imagination separate from reality, you shouldn't watch or participate in such things. And there is where (I think) the crux of the problem lies.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Confession
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Confession
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: Confession
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: monkeywrench on Feb 5, 2009 4:32 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was one word you left out of the list of reasons 9/11 wasn't prevented; a word that is heavily loaded in its implication, but points to the need for a complete and UNBIASED investigation of the worst man-made tragedy in american history.
That word is : complicity
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chief of okeefe on Feb 5, 2009 6:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Arrest the Bush lawyers today!!
Posted by: donl51
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dyolfknip on Feb 5, 2009 10:14 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: a new G.I.JOE movie.... O.M.F.G.!!!
Posted by: Feltixx
» You say "masculine" like it's a bad thing?
Posted by: rickiey
Comments are closed-
Posted by: TerryS on Feb 6, 2009 1:03 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kudos, kudos, and more kudos to Alternet for
covering torture, and the pernicious effects
of "24".
One thing I would like to see more coverage of
is the Real Reason for Torture.
Namely, torture is an essential tool of dictatorships
and totalitarian governments everywhere.
Nothing is more effective at terrorizing a
populace into submission than torture. That is
why Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, etc... all used
torture as an essential tool to crush opposition.
And *that* is why Bush and Company were sooo
anxious to legalize (for themselves) torture,
and to institutionalize torture. Karl Rove
argued for a "permanent Republican majority",
they knew that torture would be an essential
component.
I don't know that "24" was explicitly
created as a propaganda tool for the Republicans.
Instead, I believe that authoritarian personalities
like torture, and instinctively understand it's
value in getting and keeping dictatorial power.
Dictatorships need torture, Free societies are
destroyed by torture.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: Feltixx
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: Kati
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: Jnutter
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: The Real Reason for Torture
Posted by: Jnutter
Comments are closed-
Posted by: beinhart on Feb 6, 2009 8:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The application of these concepts to members of the Bush Administration would make them certainly subject to trial and probably to conviction.
That includes the lawyers who came up with the concepts that justified evasion of civilized restraints.
The explanation of why "good Germans" co-operated, even endorsed the Nazis, sounds almost exactly like the response of Americans to the Bush excesses.
They co-operated because they had 24 types of fantasies and framed reality in such false theories. We sentenced several of them to be hanged because of it.
The point is to return to the high moral ground that we claimed we were taking when we brought other people to trial.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Nuremberg, Responsibility, The Rule of Law
Posted by: TerryS
» RE: Nuremberg, Responsibility, The Rule of Law
Posted by: TerryS
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Pirate1 on Feb 7, 2009 12:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Police today are in a social class by themselves, they can in most cases harrass, abuse and even kill with impunity. Like Catholic priests that move to another parish, they just move to another city and continue on a different force. As a carreer field I think for the most part it attracts former high school bullies and gives them an outlet to continue that behavior only with legal, lethal weaponry. Cop shows just keep the notion alive that police of all stripes need to be brutal and to "protect" us from ourselves. That's why they get off when eight or more cops fire multiple times at a man reaching for his wallet, or like in Oakland a few weeks back, a man lying prostrate on the ground, doing everything the cops asked of him. We have allowed this elite class to grow in our midst by buying into all the fear messages we get every second on TV news.
You'll notice that in all these shows the "criminals" are either dark skinned and speak with accents or they look like elder hippies, people "proper" americans are supposed to shun, I gather. I've noticed over the years that due to my tendency to wear my hair on the longish side, that people in mall culture give me wide berth when we pass and I believe that is directly attributable to television's unwaivering depiction of long haired men as either drug dealers or criminals.
So yes, television DOES affect the way people behave in the world. Not everyone has the discernment to know that Bauer is "just a character like Batman" any more than to realize every man with longish hair is NOT a danger because that is how they are always depicted... in fact, I would argue that today MOST people don't. Hell, we just spent 8 years "respecting" a fool because every time he came on TV there was the the flag and Presidential Seal. One day a lot of people will collectively wake up to just how much that respect was manipulated out of them.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jfingers1 on Feb 9, 2009 8:54 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First you traumatize the subject then plant ideas that turn out to be absurd on further examination.
Passports are made of paper, they don't survive fireballs. Israelis being arrested that day and their van(s) testing positive for explosives is criminally suspicious.ICTS a security company of Israeli origin servicing all airline and ports involved in the hijackings as well as the 7/7 bombings needs a look see.
A guy who buys a white elephant complex for 124 mil and then collects 4.6bil. 3 months later makes me curious. The odds of 3 steel framed fire coded skyscrapers collapsing in under 10 seconds each by oxygen starved fires is a stretch and a statistical impossibility.
If the government lies about everything, and they do, do you really think they are telling you the truth of 911, you would have to be completely devoid of common sense.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Starbucks' Cop-Out to Gun Nuts: Customers Served Coffee While Strapped
ACORN Smear Collaborator Claims Persecution to Raise Money for Her Legal Troubles
Bad Policies Are Really What's Driving California's Huge Prison Costs




