I just want to stop for a moment in my busy queer life, to thank Alternet for including the gay issue with equal respect and consideration that you give to other civil rights issues. I haven't even read this particular article yet, to know that this is yet just the latest news piece on behalf of gay rights, which you so consciously and compassionately include in the mix of civil rights issue at large.

As a dedicated, free lance gay activist of many years, I can assuredly give you two thumbs up for your unabashed support and representation of the gay issue...upon which so many other so-called liberal news venues continue to drag their feet.

YOU ROCK, ALTERNET! Thank you from the bottom of my heart, for your MOST considerate inclusion of gay rights right along all other civil rights issues...since the inception of your news service, and all along the way.

Sinqueerly,

Zeke Krahlin (a.k.a. Jehovah's Queer Witness)
http://www.gay-bible.org

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an evil man will do evil, but for a good man to do evil it takes religion.

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This was a really good, thoughtful piece.

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Great piece - good to point out the old Negro policy too.

Better LSD than LDS

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Religious people who voted against same-sex marriage should admit that they do not believe same-sex marriage should be tolerated. In most cases it arises from their religious beliefs. A lot of things are considered abominations in the bible. Some of them like same-sex sexual acts are spoken ill of much more than others. Some such as wearing clothes meant for the opposite sex, are openly discriminated against much more than others.

Intolerance is not in and of itself a bad thing. Most people on Alternet probably do not tolerate religious intolerance of same-sex sexual acts. Some will refer to only those intolerances that they find unreasonable as (the objectionable) intolerances, while referring to their own (self-justifiable) intolerances as (personal) preferences or (righteous) outrages.

Tolerance can vary both in extent to which something is tolerated, and the extent to which tolerance extends. e.g. Intolerant1 may tolerate Num1 number of brief exposures to Intolerable1, but may not even be able to stand Num2 number of consecutive minutes of a single exposure to Intolerable1. Intolerant1's tolerance to Intolerable2 may extend only to the extent of not actively putting a stop to it, but may not extend to having courteous conversations with the source of Intolerable2.

As a society we should consider promoting a reasonable amount of tolerance to keep us from unreasonably causing significant harm to others. We need to watch out to not pressure people to choose between total acceptance or total intolerance.

Sincerely,
Aouie

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The author seems to imply that what will change Mormon doctrine is convincing individual mormons that same sex marriage is not an abomination to be fought. Yet, he clearly states that the Negro doctrine did not change until Kimball announced a "revelation." To wit:

"It took years for attitudes to change on the Negro doctrine, but in 1978 the Mormon Church officially announced a revelation -- from none other than Spencer W. Kimball -- which gave black Mormons the same priesthood rights as everyone else.

It is my understanding that Mormonism is profoundly dependant on "revelations" by elders to function. That revelation by an elder effectively is a new law or pronouncement from God himself. If that is so, how can trying to persuade individual mormons ever work? They can only be persuaded by a "revelation." If Kimball indeed was unconsciously persuaded by the social environment, then God had nothing to do with it and revelations are phony.

Maybe what is needed is a little LSD in an elder's cup or perhaps a homosexual elder will be born and have his OWN revelation. Personally, I think Mormons along with most devout religionists are mostly just highly repressed individuals who are both heavily brainwashed and tend to operate further along on the mental illness scale than your average, lackluster, schizotypal religionist.

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... and gays is not going to happen. At least not with respect to those sects whose religious teachings prohibit homosexuality and condemn it as "abomination." (Lev 18:22) The intolerance is mutual. Recently a group of young Christians who had gathered in San Francisco's Castro district, right after passage of Prop., 8 was mobbed and violently assaulted by angry homosexuals. The Christians had not been leafleting any kinds of tracts or interacting in any way with anyone. They had been gathered in a small circle and were singing contemporary Christian songs. The rage of the attacking gays was documented on video. I have seen the video myself. One Christian girl's Bible was taken from her by one of the gay assailants who then hit her in the head with it and threw it to the pavement. The young girl later declined to press charges for assault. The Mormon's exclusion of blacks from their priesthood, although based on their then current teaching, had no *rational* basis in Bible doctrine. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is clearly, firmly and unequivocally condemned in both old and new testaments. Christians who accept Bible doctrine on homosexuality will *never* accept same sex marriage. Homosexuals who demand acceptance of same sex marriage from Bible believing Christians WILL NEVER GET IT.

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My sister follows Mormon doctrine to the extent that she bore 7 healthy children and is now, at age 74, grandmother to more than 20. She is the matriarch of this very large family. She is "Mrs. Mormon."

BUT she did not vote for the "Gay Marriage Ban" when it came up in Utah elections. As she expressed it, The problem in Utah is not gay marriage -- it's polygamy.

Also, one of her daughters is good friends to a lesbian couple who are raising a family. My sister says, they are doing well; I wouldn't want to break that up.

Words cannot express how I honor my sister for being able to see through church teachings on this issue. People like her, who do not hate, who think for themselves, will change the Mormon Church.

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Or should I say polygyny, because such Mormons only allow men to have more than one spouse and not the other way around as well.

It's not non-monogamous marriage that is even the problem among such Mormons. It's patriarchal, fundamentalists religion that compels underage girls to marry old men that's the problem.

It would still be as big of a problem if such young girls were being forced to marry just ONE old man.

So, the problem isn't monogamy vs non-monogamy, per se.

Indeed, the existence of polyamory, which is when both men and women may have multiple spouses, and is engaged in only by fully consenting adults shows that this is so.

Let's focus on the real root of the problem: fundamentalist patriarchal religion.

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As a caregiver, i had the pleasure of spending nearly ten years among mormons, befriended several and cherished the friendship of some.
Yes i did appreciate the values, if not the neuroses.
As an artiste, i had the pleasure of spending nearly ten years among gays and befriended several and cherished the friendship of some, yes i did appreciate the values, if not the neuroses.

I believe the role of people is to offer a bridge, an escape from strictures that choke.
My social role was to accept personal identity and except social intolerance.

Why limit a natural progress of evolution? The Earth is already overcrowded, animals recede in reproduction when conditions so dictate. So unproductive human unions are to be welcome.

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Not just Mormonism, but ALL religions indoctrinate people from birth with "beliefs" that harm others! The nature of "belief" is to accept without, or IN SPITE OF, evidence or reason! Religions do not want you to "think for yourself." This completely undermines "BELIEF."
It's not just so-called fundamentalists or extremists either! Even so-called moderates in religion help enable and promote intolerance. As the author of this article says, just because someone is a "nice, good" person outwardly in most respects, does not mean they are not capable of promoting hate and evil!
STOP ENABLING HATE! JUST SAY NO TO RELIGION!

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I do disagree with the author of this. And my qualifications are just as good, as I am a former holder of the priesthood in the Mormon Church, and was born into it as well. I was also born liking men sexually, which is part of the reason that I am no longer Mormon.

The Mormon Church, is not a homophobic church. Homophobia implys hatred, which they do not have.

They do, however, consider homosexual acts themselves to be sins against God. They do consider it a deviance that should be corrected.

They are, of course, wrong. But that isn't the point.

The Mormons believe not in condemning those who are sinners, but in CONVERTING them. They view homosexuals not as an evil to be stamped out, but as sinners to be redeemed.

Of course, they feel the same way about Catholics.

No, that isn't exactly a tolerant attitude, but it is the best you are likely to get from ANY christian church.

Quite frankly their support of Prop 8 did not surprise me, as they were merely following their religion. They have very strict tenants on marriage (possibly the strictest), and consider it very sacred. To oppose gay marriage from their viewpoint is common sense.

What dissappointed me, is that they were successful. The number of NON mormons that voted Prop 8, is an embarrassment to me as US citizen.

And also a re-affirmation of the importance of keeping religion out of politics.

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For that matter, so is any Xtian sect who uses the xtian bible. That "book" is a cultural theft of my people's sacred texts, re-rendered out of cultural context with an entire "new testament" fabricated and cherry picked into "The Bible"....

talk about writing their own book.... but they were too cheap to actually write the biggest part, they just shoplifted that from us (and rewrote that one for good measure, just in case).

Anyone who thinks the xtian Bible or any sacred text is "written by the hand of god" or "god-breathed" is a cultist by definition. Most religious texts, even my own people's, are just humans making shit up that seems to make sense of what we don't get, or codes to try to not be so brutal to each other within our own group. It's all groping in the dark and working ourselves up... then along comes the A types and their urge to control others, dogma follows, etc. before too long, you got a full blown craptasm going.

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It's not just "xianity" that perverts people's spirituality. Any religion that says that my way is the only way is anti-human. There are as many ways to view life/death and whatever else as there are people.

BTW, DaBear:
Yes the "xians" did tack on the "New" Testament to the Pentateuch, but the Semites stole a bunch of stuff from the Zoroastrians and other "cults" of the era and area. So, let he who is without sin...get stoned.

BTW, troglodyte Jess:
The Latter Day Aints are pushing the "BRAND 'New'" Testament. You know it's improved because its got an angel named Moroni. It s the BRAND that matters, right?

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The Moron Cult is a joke. they write their own book and "think" its part of the Bible. What a joke

Isn't that what Jews say about Christians?

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Kaliya Hamlin epitomizes the hypocrisy of the Mormons when she says, ". . . directly targeting people in their private life is wrong."
Isn't that exactly what they did with Prop. 8?
The Mormons are just another wacked-out religious cult with beliefs that are just plain laughable. And yet, like most organized religion, they are taken seriously when they discriminate against those who are not like them.

Gay Americans are the latest group that people feel safe in dehumanizing. The arguments against them are the exact same ones heard about other groups throughout history. Could it be that Mormons (and most others) are so insecure with their own lives that they feel the need to make others appear to have lesser values? Since when is wanting valuation in your relationship and family a bad thing?

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HARK YE HARK YE

Mormons CRUCIFY gays and ignore tens of thousands of polygamists in Utah who practice tyranny over women and children.

Watch the video:

http://www.bankingonheaven.com

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that so-called "treatment" would have been more likely to condition gay men to want S&M, not heterosex. And then they would be even more vulnerable to hatred. Thank you for a very revealing article. All religions need to clean up their acts before they can honestly be instruments of peace (rather than war and shaming and hatred -- everything their "god" is presumably against).

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All those Germans after the war who said that they "disapproved" of what Hitler and the Nazis did.

Too many of the comments on this page are strongly reminiscent of that. "I'm a Mormon but I deeply disapprove of the anti-gay agenda". "I've known some Mormons and they were good people.." etc. etc.

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All those Germans after the war who said that they "disapproved" of what Hitler and the Nazis did.

Too many of the comments on this page are strongly reminiscent of that. "I'm a Mormon but I deeply disapprove of the anti-gay agenda". "I've known some Mormons and they were good people.." etc. etc.

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.... putting people in mental wards who disagreed with others was what Hitler did. They were the intellectuals who disagreed with Hitlers policies.... sounds awfully close to what you just suggested.

See how easy it is to become the tyrant you rail against???

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I am a straight woman (married to the same man for 43 years). We are both ministers and have legally married gays and lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people in our respective churches. I recently married two gay men in my church with 225 gay and straight people in enthusiastic attendance which was not only the high point of my ministry but a high point of my life.
The other side of this is I have seen people deal with and move beyond their homophobia. It frees people up. They are able to let go of something hard and uptight and repressed that was put into them when they were too young to even think it through, let alone reject it. The wonderful thing is that anyone who rids themselves of these toxic beliefs sees life, including their own, with new eyes.
Here in Massachusetts, where thankfully we have equal marriage, this is rapidly becoming a non issue. Those who railed against gays and used their hate speech to cling to their ideology are just not heeded anymore. They are, in effect, dinosaurs since they will die off, and already the younger generation sees this as a non-issue. Younger people are far more accepting and open and want to concentrate on real issues, like education and healthcare, not on something as ignorant as blocking gay marriage.
Christian Humanist, Unitarian Universalist minister, Gretchen Robinson

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The Mormon church has a history of violence and cruelty. They don't need a reason. From the early days in new England to other parts of the country, they were on the move for a reason. The exact number of people they slaughtered is not recorded. Anyone who got in their way. It's not an ancient religion so the history is available. They operate in secrecy and regard themselves to be superior to the rest of us. I don't understand why the gays feel the need to be accepted by them. Seems like a waste of time. Thanks, ANNA

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When you take aim at a group that your group declares to be "sinners", you open yourself up to scrutiny. The world will come to know Mormons in a way that maybe they might not like.

I had the distinct pleasure of coming of age in the land of "Zion" (Salt Lake Valley for the uninitiated) during the early 1970's. As a non-Mormon among a majority of Mormons --in school and neighborhood-- I was often the odd-one-out. But being a non-member denizen of Zion, I was often prostylitized by their missionaries.

Being a young hippie at the time, I was curious and gave them my time. My personal creed was one of openness, tolerance, understanding, and yes, experimentation.

I always found Mormons to be generally good people who --although a little clannish-- care about family and community. But to my youthful mind, they represented the ultimate in "square"-ness. I found them to be extremely succeptible to the "group-mind" (kind of like Republicans spouting the exact same talking points).

I too had problems with their "negro doctrine". That made joining their church a non-starter for me. I had tremendous respect for the civil rights movement and their leaders.

One of the things that actually made an impression on me was one of their "articles of faith". It states --to paraphrase-- they believe that people will be judged for their own sins "and not Adams' transgression" --their disavowal of the doctrine of "Original Sin". I always had problems with "Original Sin" too, but they were simultaneously accepting of a whole race of people being punished for Cain's, transgression. Just a little schizo, if you ask me... But then again, religion does not exactly fall within the realm of the rational, does it?

IMHO, I don't think Mormons are haters, but they are blind to what their doctrines do to the world at large. As Douglas Adams' Vogons would say, "Mostly harmless."

Ironically, the first gay man I ever met and befriended was a returning Mormon missionary.

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While all religions (Christianity, Islam, Hebrews, Hindus, etc) have prohibitions against homosexuality, there are more sections in all of the Holy Books that speak to love, tolerance, and taking care of those with "less" than what you have. My problem with the "religious community" is that they are extremely intolerant of those that are not like them, and will justify everything they do with certain "passages in their holy books"! More wars have been fought because of religion, than anything else!

I thank you for pointing out those evils perpetrated in the "name of G-D" but I realize that these wingnuts will continue. I have no problem with other peoples religion, my issue is that you people refuse to really practice what you supposedly have read within your Holy books! For example, while I do not believe in polygamy, I don't come to your neighborhood to stir up trouble! While I am not gay, it is none of my business what two consenting adults do in their home! And for those oh so Holy book people, it's not your business either! With all that is going on in the world today, people, please stop focusing your attention in the bedrooms and Dr.s offices in this nation!

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I REMEMBER SOMEWHERE IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SPEAKS OF "STRAIN AT A GNAT AND SWALLOW A CAMEL." MORMONS, OF ALL PEOPLE, ATTEMPTING TO DICTATE THE SEX LIVES OF OTHER PEOPLE. WHAT ABOUT THE ABUSES THEIR SECT HAS COMMITTED DURING THEIR HISTORY WITH MULTIPLE MARRIAGES, MARRYING OLD MEN TO ADOLESCENT OR YOUNGER GIRLS, ACTUALLY BELIEVING ALL THAT MYTHOLOGY ABOUT GOLDEN PLATES ENGRAVED WITH THE WORDS OF GOD AND THE ANGEL "MORONI." (POSSIBLY THEY SHOULD ALL BE KNOWN AS "MORONI"--THE PLURAL OF "MORON." AND THIS IS THE GROUP THAT WANTS TO DICTATE HOW OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SEX?????

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Ok. For some reason Mormons have become the scapegoat for the passage of the recent gay marriage ban in California. I get it. It's easy to pin this on a quirky offshoot Christian religion. However, the sad truth (for alternet) is that Democrat voters, voted in the ban. You can't blame it on Mormons, and you can't blame it Republicans this time - there aren't enough of either in California.

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I find that the United States has historically moved slowly to extend equal rights to everyone, despite what the constitution says.

Originally equal rights under the law were given only to white men. Then slowly, these rights have been extended to additional groups, such as for blacks and for women.

However, gays and transgenders are still treated as less than equal under the law. Prop 8 is just a recent example of the one step back, two steps forward process this country has gone through with each minority group.

As far as marriage goes, churches can choose to only perform ceremonies for heterosexual couples, that is their right as a private group. However, marriages performed by city hall should be available to all people, regardless of their race, religion, and sexual orientation. This is a legal contract performed by a local government institution, so no minority group should be excluded.

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Scientology is not the first religion with space aliens at the base of the belief system. Joseph Smith beat L. Ron Hubbard by almost 150 years.

Blonde people are the holiest and most blessed, because the paler and lighter you are, the closer you are to perfection.

Their geneological records are the best in the world because they use them to baptize the dead by proxy. They also marry the dead by proxy.

Despite the official ban on polygamy, they believe that men cannot rise through the ranks of heaven (outer space) without at least three wives. This is why marrying dead, unmarried women is very important.

Due to the high amount of polygamy in the early church, the inbreeding among Mormons has resulted in a higher level of genetic diseases and disabilities among Mormon families who have been in the church for several generations.

And that's the official church. The polygamist groups should be stamped out now. I'm a believer in freedom of religion and separation of church and state, but they engage in illegal activities, up to and including murder, that should have had them all in prison decades ago if not for the outcry of religious persecution raised by them.

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Time to end all tax exemptions for churches, synagogues or temples--all religions.

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Gay folks in California should consider bringing individual and class-action lawsuits againsts all churches who participated, esp the Moron Church, in the anti-gay campaign. Americans are now so dumb they think they can vote to oppress a groups of millions of tax-paying citizens. Any fool who took a civics class knows that majorities cannot vote away rights of minorities. Unfortunately too many Americans are uneducated and got BULLYING and DEMOCRACY confused.

Bring lawsuits against churches and makes them go to court and present real, scientific data to back up their claims, toss out all superstition and myth as evidence. Sue them for millions of dollars, the money is what really matters to these anti-sex hypocrites.

LGBT and supporters, start considering a tax rebellion...do not pay taxes to a government that fails to protect your equal rights.

SUE CHURCHES that work to oppress you, strip your rights, and encourage hate crimes against you.

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...or so they say!

They believe that other churches lost 'the keys' to authority (the priesthood) and that it was restored to the earth - to the white men - through revelation given to the original prophet, Joseph Smith.

Through it's prophets so far it's people have been given polygamy which the leaders - the privileged granted this 'blessing', including my own great, great grandfather - and it's membership believed was an important key to the highest degree of glory in the hereafter. Eventually, it was officially rescinded.

Joseph was also inspired to not grant the priesthood to negros just before the Civil War. It was later brought to one of the future prophets' attention that an Article of Faith said (paraphrasing), 'We believe that man will be punished for his own sins and not for Adam's transgressions.' That's about where the theory of of blacks having the 'less than valiant spirits' from 'the war in Heaven', came into play.

Before the revelation male members of a couple of negro families were given the Priesthood and their male descendents were somehow qualified through some 'special dispensation' to hold the priesthood as well - a little Mormon secret. One of God's little mistakes??

The Prophet Brigham Young was inspired to lead the membership to Deseret - later Utah - where they intended (for about 1/2 hour) to become an independent nation. After coming to grips with reality, renouncing polygamy was part of the bargain to become part of the U S as a state.

Now it would appear that God in His infinite wisdom, has inspired the leadership to believe that being gay is a choice, not a biological fact and that civil marriage and perhaps even the religious 'Temple Marriage' would somehow be sullied or devalued by allowing gays some legal, civil contract. Such a contract would allow them as couples to access the legal, civil rights enjoyed by all of us heterosexual 'sinners' who aren't 'worthy' of the special religious rights of Temple Marriage. In the final analysis it seems they are saying, 'we love you and want you to have all the rights and privileges of citizens. All youy have to do is renounce yourselves and remake yourselves - as happy heteros like us!'

I'd say the record of communication of God with his chosen people through the prophets hasn't been too good and that eventually they will once again realize a mistake and whether they accept gays into full fellowship - they're probably lined up outside the wards and temples as we speak! - they will cease in their un-American and uninspired tampering in other people's and other states' civil rights matters!

As a 'recovering Mormon' I pity any faithful who can't think for themselves to easily see the overt manipulation in this stance? Who couldn't see if they allowed themselves the freedom of critical thought, that this manipulation attempts to remake what 'God has already created' whether intentionally or by mistake!

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This thought just occurred to me, perhaps a way of thinking about this from a different angle.

We all have heard those statistics about how often thoughts of sex enter our brains--how many times a minute or whatever.

But, think about it...

How often do you imagine what other folks do in their bedrooms, with or without a companion or companions?

Just think about all the people you encounter in the course of a day, and how few of them--if any--you imagine doing any particular sex act. If I'm honest with myself, such thoughts arise only if I'm attracted to some guy (I'm a straight girl), but, even then, I'm not thinking about what he may have done with other people, but what I'd like to do with him.

So, here's my point. Think of how damaged you would be as a person if you were constantly thinking about a particular sex act and worrying about whether those around you engaged in that sex act. It seems to me that the most "orthodox" homophobes are fixated--obsessed--with gay male sex, particularly gay anal sex.

I never used to understand that--not only for its implicit sexism in its contempt and fear of penetration as weakness--but because I had a sort of practical "ya know, there really are only so many ways to have sex, and when you get right down to it, barring issues of consent and violence, it's really all the same sh**." I mean, just for starters, anyone who's checked out any het porn lately knows that the straight folks do anal just as often as the gay folks. It's only those folks with a paranoid investment in some notion of preserving "real men" who get so freaked out about men penetrating men or women who don't need a penis in the first place. As George Carlin once put it, never underestimate the power of "dick fear" as a true player in world affairs.

But, and this is the new thought that just occurred to me: Man, if I walked around all day obsessing about male butt sex, man, I'd end up friggin' crazy too!!! It would be pure torture to spend your day worrying about the sex you're imagining someone else having.

So, hey, maybe we lefties and gay civil rights folks should try stealing something from their playbook. We're really trying to save ***them*** from ***their*** psychological torture and spiritual damnation--can we try that angle for a new spin on the issue???

"Save yourself from butt fear!" Hey, what can I say--I'm not good at writing slogans...

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I was raised Mormon and most of my family are still Mormon. I don't follow, nor believe in the Mormon faith (or religion in general), but I still find this article offensive. What Hamlin fails to realize? This guy comes off like he has a bone to pick with the Mormon faith, and this was just another easy catalyst for him to jump on.

Most Mormons I know are for gay rights, including gay marriage or at least some sort of marriage rights. I’ve heard members of the LDS church (at least in the Midwest) quote "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" when they refer to Utah numerous times.

Also, don't you think that the book he's citing is a bit outdated? I think you could find some texts from other faiths that would make even most homophobes cringe. The book is, after all, almost 40 years old (published in 1969). Why single out just the LDS church? While some LDS members may still reference certain sections of the book, I don't personally know anyone who owns it.

I would like to know how much money was contributed to funding Prop 8 by any other religious institutions; especially other Christian faiths. Why is that not mentioned here? Why target the LDS church? All religion is my mind is corrupt, but you can't fault the individual for this. We are, as humans, genetically predispositioned to have faith.

If you want to talk about homophobia in the Christian faith and the history behind this, I would likely agree with you on how awful it really is. But to presume that most Mormons are on board with everything that goes on in the church (especially Utah and CA) is ignorant at best. If you are a good person, you are a good person Mormon or not. If you're a bigot, then you're going to be a bigot no matter what religion you practice and you're going to use whatever means to support that ignorance.

You can quote old books all you want, but if you really want to blame something, blame the source - the Bible.

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for being a narrow-minded bigoted asshole.

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IRS pressure, civil rights era pressure and pressure from non-mormon groups was the real reason the mormon church allowed blacks into their church. I have researched this, and the only article naying the IRS pressure comes from the LDS church. The hate and discrimination from people who profess to be "religious" is the ultimate hypocrisy. When will they learn we are ALL children of ONE GOD?

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One thing that has not been said here, in any of the posts, is the fact that no matter how a person views the Mormon church or any other religion, they should never have been allowed to politically do what they did:
This country has a SEPARATTION of Church and State!
"At the urging of church leaders, Mormons spent about $20 million on the effort"

One of two things should have happened:
1) They should have had NO ability to spend this kind of money to sway a vote one way or the other, or be provided the political opportunities to do so.

2) If they are going to become this politically persuasive, and be allowed to spend millions to do so, then they should NO LONGER have tax exempt status PERIOD! They are, just like the Catholic church, using their control, in ways that were, by design, NOT to occur.

The Mormon church should now be forced to pay the same 20 million and then some, into taxes, and from here on, be required to pay taxes just like any other corporation. The Mormon church is nothing more than a Corporate Cult!

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You have the right not to practice homosexuality. You do not have the right to prevent me from practicing homosexuality.

Sincerely yours,
me

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From the Nov. 2008 magzine, Sedona, a great article that this quote is from, and this applies to ANY "religion", not only Mormons:
"We are conditioned to believe that the only people sanctioned to have authentic conversations with God are great prophets, saints, holy men (I emphasize the word "men") and other holy beings that lived at least two thousand years ago in some faraway land. These holy men wrote ONE BOOK....after that book was written, apparently God had gone mute and has not spoken to anyone since. Right? Wrong.

I believe these holy men have not signed an exclusive contract with God. They have no special combination to a padlocked, hallowed safe with elite access. Some religious institutions would have you believe that they own the secret pass key, and without their sanction, no one can walk through the doorway to heaven.

The widespread belief is that God's blessing and grace are inaccessible without a middleman, such as a pastor, minister, priest, cleric, rabbi, guru, master, shaman, psychic, channeler, counselor....Such salespeople have no incentive to help people hear God's voice directly. To use an analogy froom the world of sales, if their customers were to have such experiences, then these retailers would soon be out of business."

THAT'S why I'm NOT a "religious" person. Mormons don't have the "key" - but neither does any other "religion". Skip the "middleman" - go direct!!

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Gentlewoman's ministry isn't anything to
brag about, she's just as lost as most
heathens.

On ABC's show THE VIEW, at the University of Virginia, September 12th, 2006, Rosie O'Donnell stated that "Radical Christianity is just as threatening to America as Radical Islam."

What an idiotic thing to say. To even compare a murderous false religion like Islam to Biblical Christianity is the epitome of ignorance. Rosie O'Donnell is part of an increasing mob of godless homosexuals who HATE Biblical Christianity.

The homosexual community doesn't mind a lifeless type of pseudo-Christianity
like that of gentlewoman --that bares no cross, takes no stand, never offends anyone, and preaches a social gospel. The Word of God condemns homosexuality in Romans 1:21-32; Leviticus 18:22, 20:13; and in Jude 1:7. It is every believer's duty to stand uncompromisingly against the sin of homosexuality. Ephesians 5:11states ... "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." Homosexuality is a work of darkness, and God hates it..

It is not "radical Christianity" that threatens homosexuals, but the Word of God! America is in sad condition, being further enslaved by sin each day as seen when O'Donnell's ATTACK on Christianity the audiences' strong applaud for what she said...just shows where many people's minds are at nowadays. Many people do consider Christianity a threat, especially abortionists and homosexuals."

What the general public wants is not Biblical Christianity but heathendom. The milquetoast, watered-down, crossless, lukewarm, deadbeat, pseudo-Christianity which has saturated America it’s nothing more than heathendom. The average so-called "Christian" is as heathen as
an Australian aboriginal who worships the
sun and trees.

The reason why Bible-believing, Christ-honoring Christians are being labeled as "radical" is because most other so-called Christians today are in fact heathens, who have no qualms about the increasing divorce, adultery, corruption and homosexuality in their own church-- they don't know anything
about the Holy Bible and don't want to either.

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So how does the Mormon Church explain their practice of having wedding ceremonies for dead corpses to assure salvation? With the magic underwear and secret services, how dare these Salt Lake City Cultists complain about gay couples seeking the same joining of spirit through marriage that they afford their ancestor's corpses as condoned in the Mormon Faith.

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The Mayor of Moscow is medically correct, not politically correct:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L4284496.htm

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You do realise the BY's statement in context RE: White men mixing with Black seed was targeted at southern slave holders or even politicians (think Jefferson) who abused their position as a slave owner sexually abusing their servants?

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I was unaware "corpses" or magicall clothing had anything to do with the work done in temples. :rolleyes:

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I posted this as a reply but, I kinda liked it, so I thought I'd make it it's own entry too. Ah, arrogance... wink!

I know I won't win with you on your definition of "moral values." But do want a reckoning with logic...

Please explain to me how you can know who has a false religion and who doesn't, what is heathenism and what isn't, and what are true morals according to any higher power.

Cuz, this my friend, is what you need to wrestle with. Since the dawn of humanity--we're talking countless billions of people--various collectives of human beings (as small as families, as large as nation-states) have devised explanations for the origins of life and the place of human beings within it. And the undeniable TRUTH of that is those explanations are INFINITE in their creativity. In fact, the only thing they share is their ludicrous insistence in their own absolute certainty.

Whether we're talking virgin sacrifices, reincarnation, life forces, one god, many gods, gods who love humans, gods who despise humans, gods who look like humans, gods who inhabit animals or the wind, there are INFINITE explanations for the origins of life.

So, please, someone explain to me how you can be so arrogant that you are certain that by accident of birth you just happened to be born to the one subgroup of human beings who got it right. Seriously.

These are human made belief systems designed for social cohesion, designed to manage the fears of the unknown and of death, and designed to give followers a sense of superiority over others. I think they can do so in positive ways too, but there's no getting around the fact that more of their claims are demonstrably false than not.

I personally believe that I will live a more fulfilling life if I treat others as I want to be treated, and I believe the world would be a saner place if we didn't endorse religious orthodoxies that pathologize sex and make us hate our own bodies. So maybe I'll never understand how some (not all) Christians and some (not all) Muslims can rationalize gay sex as some heathenist act.

Again, logic gets in the way: scientists have documented--conclusively--that a certain percentage (a varying one too) of animal species engage in homosexual sex. That is biological reality. Deal with it.

Another piece of logic that gets in the way: scientists have documented--conclusively--that the earth was not created as the bible explained and that is far far older, and that actually the default gender is female, not male. Male forms didn't come first gang, females did. All humans start female--Adam came from Eve's rib, not the other way around.

Here's another point that deserves mentioning, and I'm stealing this from Bertrand Russell. Did you know that the three religions that imagined a patriarchal god--Christianity, Judaism, and Islam--and that, in particular, prized virginity of women as a sign of their virtue, all, amazingly enough, emerged historically just around the time that folks in that geographical area of the world discovered scientifically how women became pregnant? Prior to that, there were myriad explanations for pregnancy, but, hmmm..., I wonder why at that time human beings CHOSE to believe that god is male and in control, and that a woman's worth should be measured by whether or not a given man could be certain that he was the only one who had access... Must be pure friggin' coincidence...

Of course there are infinite points of entry if one wants to catalog the illogic, impossibility, and social conveniences of any religious orthodoxy, but I will say this. It has always struck me that any belief system that is so fragile that it cannot handle dissent and has to marginalize and silence any factual information that shows it to be false is probably not a belief system worth keeping.

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his "folder" followed him to the nearest "ward". Eventually his "exploits" cost him his job. I don't think he ever taught again. But, it wasn't the Mormon church that was working against him. I couldn't help him. I could barely help myself. He was truly a good guy. I regret losing track of him. This business of a Mormon church that works against gays is a new event. As a minority group the early church made an effort to not discriminate. There were always individual failures.

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are fucking retards. moving on.

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"These people and these religious institutions are not propagating HATE, they are just not agreeing that marriage can be between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. This is a cultural difference of opinion."
-- Kaliya Hamlin

I have heard this argument stated many, many times since election day, and every time I hear it, it infuriates me. It's a bald-faced lie, just like the rest of the Yes on 8 campaign.

This is not about simple disagreement. This is about one group of people using the legislative process to impose its religious beliefs on another. It's wrong, and it's unconstitutional.

I completely disagree with the Catholic church's official policy on birth control (among many, many other things), but I'm not out there trying to enact laws to interfere. I am not Catholic, therefore, I am not affected by what Catholic leaders say about contraception. If you want to be part of the Catholic church, that's what you have to deal with, and it's your business.

If you organize to deny a group of people their civil rights, you are absolutely propagating hate, especially when said rights have nothing to do with you. Religious people and institutions do not get a free ride when it comes to bigotry just because bigotry is part of their religion.

If you're not gay, same-sex marriage does not affect you -- in any way. Period. Focus on your own damn family, as the bumper sticker says, and leave mine the hell alone.

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I am a Morman. I love Alternet. I am a liberal who certainly does not hate gays. I am curious as why gays want to get married. There are already laws in place to protect 'civil rights', so isn't marriage "just" a religious act? Do gays want to get married for "sentimental" reasons or as a way to help them not feel marginalized? Would 'what other people think' really help with how you yourself feel about what you are doing? I don't think so. If you are comfortable with your life style, why care about who isn't comfortable about it? I believe that we as human beings need to find the truth about everything we can. I also, see that truth is different on different levels of consciousness to the point that it is very difficult to understand and communicate between levels. Gays may be uncomfortable with "right wing" thinking on marriage laws, but Mormons are uncomfortable with "left wing" thinking. Why not accept each other. Proposition 8 passed because voters were afraid that as a law, churches would be forced, legally, to perform marriages that have always been unlawful to those who believe that heterosexual unions are not only God's law, but the way of alignment with natural laws.

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Seems to me there is a Question not being asked of All Religious conservatives....Who ever gave you the divine right to judge others on their Immortal souls.
Seems these 'Faithfuls' have no fiath in their Own Gods ability to deterine who has been sinful and who has not. Seems they have taken on a Right where none was granted.
If you think Homosexuality will result in eternal damnation, then don't do it. But I have heard no Homosexuals begging the Churches to help them change theri ways...So it is none of their Business.
This is an issue of Taking Liberties Far and aBove their Pay scale.
Honestly I wonder which Act would enrage God more- a man lying with a Man or the Seizing of Divine judgement by mere mortals who have 'sins' of their own which they should be concentrating their efforts on for their own'redemption'.
granted there are morality Laws..in regards to Killing, stealing, Lying but these have actual effects on the Human community. Homosexuality is not such an issue. It does not create lawlessness nor hardship for another.
And considering how so many 'religious' think that the End will come and only those worthy will be saved (some limit seating to 144,000- which seems to me makes God powerless since he can't expand it from this limit), that these 'Wholly' rollers would welcome the idea that soem of Us Choose not to be included in that 'head count'...More seats for you !
As for the GLBT Community, Why focus your attention on these groups...It is those in Political office who have taken an oathe to work as PUBLIC servants..You are part of the Public. What also would help this issue would be to disregard the Rhetoric and focus on the Legality. I and my husband are Not 'married in the eyes of God' because we were not married in any church...Recovered Catholic. This doesn't make my marriage any less legal. Honestly I could have cared less if they called it a 'marriage' or a 'union' as long as my legal rights remain the same.
Frankly if I had to bet which group was going to be condemned for their actions, I'd bet it would be those Religious folks who have no regard for their own Almighty's ability to 'See' and 'Judge' without their Unrequested assistance.'Throwing Stones at Glass Houses' LDS? Esp now where a Number of Americans Not only think you are breaking Gods laws by sexually abusing children, but also breaking Man's laws...sounds like you have some Expalining to do yourselves to both to keep yourselves out of Jail and Hell. We will handle the legal aspects of your crimes, we'll Let God judge your Immortal Souls after that.

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The hideous truth revealed by the victory of Proposition 8 and two other similar state measures -- including the overwhelming support for homophobic bigotry expressed by their enthusiastic endorsement in the African-American and Hispanic communities -- is perhaps the most vehemently denied disclosure of the entire 2008 election.

But Prop 8’s primary revelation is that the United States is a de facto theocracy. Its three subsidiary revelations, equally ugly, are (1)-that Barack Obama’s victory was not the product of any conversion to progressive values, but was rather a manifestation of mindless angst and rage that -- precisely because of its mindlessness -- saw no contradiction between a desperation vote for Obama and a definitively fascist vote to persecute homosexuals; (2)-that while some fundamentalists embrace allegedly “leftist” socioeconomic solutions (the Rev. Jim Wallis comes to mind here), their apparent “progressive” outlook should not obscure the fact they remain theocrats -- that is, fascists -- at heart; (3)-that the reality of the Abrahamic soldiers-of-god savagery so vividly displayed in the euphemism by which the Ku Klux Klan was labeled amongst Southern aristocrats -- “the Saturday night men’s bible study class” -- applies to fundamentalists regardless of race or ethnicity. Thus fundamentalist minorities see absolutely no conflict in persecuting other minorities exactly as they themselves were persecuted.

Alas, too many of today’s so-called “leftists” are too blinded by “political correctness” to understand that the enemy is therefore Abrahamic religion itself: whether Judaism, Christianity or Islam, the most toxic ethos of murderous oppression in all human history.

Meanwhile sociological data has already proven the depth of theocratic sentiment in the U.S. At least 63 percent of the population believes the bible is absolute truth -- literally the word of god -- this according to an Rasmussen poll taken in 2005. Such is the core dogma that unites the Christian fundamentalist cults (whether Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, whatever) and unifies the cultoid membership across racial and ethnic lines as well. Thus -- given the wildfire growth of Christian fundamentalism (the 63 percent figure of 2005 has undoubtedly increased to 70 percent or perhaps even 80 percent today) -- the outcome of the Proposition 8 struggle was in fact predictable. Indeed -- given that the Rasmussen data and myriad similar studies demonstrate conclusively the U.S. is not just a de facto theocracy but suffers the planetary disgrace of being the only such realm in the industrialized world -- no amount of advertising and grass-roots organizing could have prevented Proposition 8’s passage.

That Prop 8 acquired 52.3 percent support in what is considered the most “progressive” state in the nation -- Obama carried it by a landslide -- demonstrates the hatefulness and thus the terrifying potential for fascism that simmers just beneath the surface of the U.S. political landscape. All the more so since California is the ultimate U.S. bell-weather: what happens in California today will happen in every other state within a few years.

PollyAnnas all, Moron Nation’s allegedly “leftist” commentators are loathe to even acknowledge these dire facts and indications, much less attempt to revise their analyses accordingly. But the hideous truth revealed by Proposition 8 is the truth of a nation already poisoned by a theocratic bigotry that can be just as readily invoked to kill, for example, the enactment of universal healthcare (“sickness is god’s punishment for sin”) or the Employee Free Choice Act (“unions are the devil‘s workshop”). And there is probably no antidote for such poisoning -- admission of which is, paradoxically, the first step toward healing.

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Why would you expect any different? All monotheist churchs promote ignorance and intolerance.

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As if in anticipation of your comments - almost as if we needed confirmation, 'floridahank' posted this above. TALK ABOUT FUZZY-BRAINED THOUGHT, (you should see all of his musings and argument) but we shouldn't totally blame ol' hank for fuzzy thinking. He's been thoroughly indoctrinated by 'the best' fuzzy-thinkers and he's lifted much if not all, of this material directly from the writing of creationist, wing-nuts!
Just to demonstrate that the advocates of a theocracy are emboldened, even as they become nuttier and nuttier - Thanks, hank! - I rest my case...

You say, "Much of what you criticize of science is actually the scientific method at work" Fine I have no problem with scientific
"facts>" But with the evolutionary theory,
what is actually factual?
You make generalized statements without any
academic information to back you up. I have
quoted evolutionary-thinking professionals
who make their negative statements about
evolution. I have not used one Creationist
scientist to deliver my facts.

You say:"Disagreements within the scientific community about evolution and many other scientific theories - not to mention hypotheses - DOES NOT DISPROVE OR DISCREDIT, SCIENCE, THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD OR ANY SPECIFIC SCIENTIFIC THEORIES!!! Your arguments are fallacious and tiresome."

WHERE HAVE I STATED THAT SCIENCE IS WRONG OR
USELESS? All I post are authoritative facts
and findings and they all keep showing that
as time goes by, evolutionary facts keep being
disproved -- not added with new findings.
You are the one who is not being realistic
with scientific findings -- you keep living
in the past with discarded evolutionare
"facts>"


You say, "I think you missed the point or I'm missing yours, re: the paragraph about our infants maturing slowly. I was pointing out - and the sentence was in the context of - how it 'works' to have reproduction require two parents. You fail to respond to any of my points except with these incessant, illogical, faith based ravings which are pure bullshit!"

That brings out the other "proof of evolution
from one species to another" -- recapitulation.
The concept of recapitualation is based on
the fact that there are similarities among
embryos of people, animals, reptiles, birds and
fish.

They all begin as very tiny round balls, then
gradually arms,legs, eyes, and all the other
parts begin appearing.. But when animals are
just beginning to form, and while very small,
there's only one way for them to develop

Ongoing "change" is a basic dictum of evolution. If that's so, then by now -- after
millions and millions of years of evolving,
all those embroys ought to look very different
from each other.

But instead we see fixity of species throughout
nature today, as well in the fossil record.
The fact that embryos are alike in their
earlier weeks reveals they were all designed
and made by the same "creating entity,"
So your "evolving" principle doesn't hold up
when you examine recapitulation throughly.

Since 2001 anti-evolutionary materials for public schools ahove been proposed in
state board of education in Alaska, Arizone,
New Mexico, Nebraska and North Carolina.. withy Arkansas,Missouri, Michigan, Indiana
Neyw York and Florida pointing towaard
requiring anit-evolution materials in public
schools -- SO WATCH OUT, WE'RE COMING TO
STRAIGHTEN YOU OUT.

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.. in my home and studio - and horses, and trees, cats, dogs, hell I could argue with the car! They say arguments with inanimate objects are seldom productive or I would try arguing with the furniture but what have I learned in this discussion with you?

You've reaffirmed my lessons of childhood that religion and it's believers are always 'RIGHT'! You've shown yourself to be a self assured dominionist, ready to overthrow not only the principles of science but the principles of our Constitution and you've engaged me in a discussion about science that you 'shortcut' to be right.

Either you're thick headed as an Angus bull, or you're skipping the things I write and say whilst your mind rushes ahead to your next point and how you're going to prove yourself 'RIGHT'!

Stephen J Gould famously said that no one ever said evolution was perfect! Principled scientists accept this and many other sciences that aren't as we fill in the 'work in progress' we call science. They do so and they accept the blank spots and the rough edges because it's clear to them and to me that it's 'interesting' that way, it's sort of 'democratic' or at least participatory, dynamic and alive but it's not authoritarian.

No one treats them like children, no one insults their intelligence with unproveable postulates like organized religion and they work in concert - acting like a group of adults, 'attacking' each other's theories and hypothesis in an estasblished, creative manner.

They don't need to be 'RIGHT' for ego and they don't defer to authority (except the laws of science) but they engage in a kind of 'creative destruction' to get to a more elegant, more refined theory.

I know your question was about evolution specifically and I could give you endless contributions that the knowledge that that pursuit has conributed to medicine and other sciences. More to the point we are able to have this discussion because of layer upon layer of science. Some of that science came about through 'theories' and many of those contained components that were - NOT "WRONG" BUT FALSIFIABLE - DEAD ENDS - all of those were roads we had to go down to get here and to communicate thru the internet.

Notice I explained all of that without a single reference to a 'GOD' or 'FAITH'. Fortunately I didn't need to and because of that I could explain my point based on reason and logic without any subjective or 'soft' postulates.

That's only important because we are having - at least I began days ago thinking we were having - a discussion about SCIENCE!

(continued)

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Now I know you haven't mentioned God or faith specifically but I needn't be psychic to know that is your only possible sustitute for evolution. You have mentioned 'creation' too and all of your arguments gave me clues.

Scientists are well aware of the 'evolution' if you will of the theory of evolution and of scientific challenges you haven't mentioned. They don't cling stuggornly to 'some discredited theory' because the whole of science is actually stupid! Not because they are unprofessional, not because they have some 'faith' that it's right. In spite of the dead ends, the occasional failure, the old timey, too hasty conclusions or the gaps in the span of human knowledge waiting for answers, but because they have a myriad of examples of the scientific method and a myriad of agreements that the theory of evolution, like quantum theory is dynamic, alive and a work in progress - and VERY LIKELY on the right track!!

It will never be complete - niether will the progress of human knowledge. Only religion gives that false (to me) assumption of correctness or that authoritarian presumption of perfection.

Maybe completeness, correctness and perfection are a good thing to some people but they come at a price and they require accepting authoritarian assumptions that just don't work for much of humanity.

Pity for you, you weren't living in 17th century Rome or maybe even Biblical times! Then your arguments of blind obedience to authority would have more weight. Maybe you could just have me locked in the tower - or burned at the stake as a heathen. I for one tho, know I will resist to my death if necessary, the kind of regressive thinking that would turn back the clock and put us there, either for me, my dhildren or my nation.(I've spoken in other posts of your freedom of religion and my allegiance to it!)

I think you creationist folks have already been offered in many school districts the right to teach your creationism in schools as religious curriculum but it seems you insist on imposing yourselves on science just as in the time of Coepernicus and Gallileo.

Yoo bad, we've 'EVOLVED' beyond that - now all you have left is turning back the clock!

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blu

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Yo Blu:

Youse is two smert fir mee. But eye'll keap
tring to rite anyways.

Just found this today, which goes to
show we can't believe
everything the scientific gang tells us
about ourselves. Probably not about the cosmos
...earth...people and how everything came about either -- just a matter of time and
belief of evolution will be in the same
category as belief in the Easter Bunny --
I give it not more than 20 years, and there
will be very few knowlegeable scientists
still preaching the same old evolutionary
"facts" we're told to believe today.


JUST HOW IMPORTANT IS TESTOSTERONE FOR
PREVENTING HEART DISEASE IH MEN?

Just 20 years ago, this question wouldn't have even been asked. Traditional teaching was that, because men develop heart disease earlier than females (by 10 years), testosterone must therefore cause heart disease.

But observations accumulated since then have turned this misconception topsy-turvy:

Not only does testosterone not cause heart disease, it may in fact be protective.

Testosterone levels peak in a male's 20s during his reproductive prime. That's also the period of a man's greatest physical capacity, muscle mass, physical energy, libido, and stamina. Starting at age 30, testosterone levels diminish. By the time a man reaches his 70s, testosterone has dropped to low, sometimes unmeasurable, levels.

Coincidentally (?), a male's increasing risk for heart disease with aging parallels the decline in testosterone. Indeed, several studies have connected lower testosterone blood levels with greater likelihood of heart attack. An 11,000-participant European study (EPIC Norfolk), for instance, showed that the men with the highest testosterone levels (natural, without supplementation) had 40% fewer deaths from heart attack and cancer. An NIH-sponsored study (The Aging in the Chianti Area Study) showed a 48% higher mortality rate (cardiovascular and cancer) in men with low testosterone. In another study, a marked deficiency of testosterone ("hypogonadism") was found in 25% of men with coronary disease (history of heart attack or major heart procedures).

Several other studies in the U.S. and elsewhere have confirmed similar observations: The lower the testosterone, the greater the likelihood of heart attack.

So blu...just because a scientist says he "found
new facts" about evolution, it can turn out
to be a "non-fact" after somebody does new
research on the same subject.

Hey, how about the positive social ramifications coming from Darwinism,
evolutiionary theory...would like to see
your (long?) list.

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floridahank,

YOU presume to label ME 'devolved' when you and your knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, regressive friends stand as absolute proof we're related to lower life forms?

YOU, while defending superstiton, equate science with a belief in the easter bunny?

YOU would turn the typical, ongoing and predictable 'disagreements' among scientists (the scientific method at work), into dissent which you think in your delusion, somehow supports further delusion?

YOU would substitute fake-science with it's foundation in the original 'easterbunny' figure for logic and rationality?

Actually, yours is not the ORIGINAL easter-bunny-sky-god figure but one of a long string of such magical, supernatural figures upon which many of a certain pathology seem to need, a security-blanky upon which to magically hang their futures and responsibility for the details of their lives.

YOU wish for POWER & DOMINION to 'FIX' our society thru your spiritual narcissism and presume influence with unwelcome, magic-based meddling and you have the temerity to accuse me and people like me OF ARROGANCE?????

ALL of YOU 'believer' types waste your lives in gossip, criticism, and judgemnt of each other and of 'THE OTHER' about which you breed and nurse hatred, fear and irrational behavior which infects the whole world.

YOU presume to not-so-subtly 'CURSE' me with unhappiness while you're part of a group that can't exist - couldn't survive, without 'singing to the choir' both metaphorically and actually - offering the 'support' that's necessary for 'you-all' to maintain your mass hysteria. Good for ya, hope it makes you all happy!

I only hope you don't have to face at some point that you've wasted the joys and pleasures of a real life you knew you had, in anticipation of a fantasy life you dreamt of, based on faith and the empty promises of 'prophets'. I hope you haven't indoctrinated and wasted the lives of, your children and future genrations for the sake of feuling your mass-hysteria.

Please don't waste your time or energy in any sort of fake 'pity' for me - save it for your gossip, your judgment and your little-old-ladies'-sewing-circle.

I have been and will continue to be just fine, happy, healthy, sexual, open, trusting and optimistic about my life and my own intuition, my own brand of reverence and spirituality.

If you want to pretend you little old ladies in the superstition community are going to 'overthrow' science, take over the government through your penetration of and unholy alliance with, the political right-wing nutjobs and if that waste of energy makes you happier than masturbation, just go for it!

I understand that your repressed sexuality needs some outlet and better that than having more of you hipocritical nutjobs abusing our children.

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