COMMENTS: 266
If Obama Doesn't Prosecute Bush's Torture Team, We'll Pay a Big Price Down the Road
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"How did it come about that American military personnel stripped detainees naked, put them in stress positions, used dogs to scare them, put leashes around their necks to humiliate them, hooded them, deprived them of sleep and blasted music at them? Were these actions the result of 'a few bad apples' acting on their own? It would be a lot easier to accept if it were. But that's not the case."
-- Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, June 17, 2008
***
It was a short but significant report in Newsweek last week, and it began like this:
Despite the hopes of many human rights advocates, the new Obama Justice Department is not likely to launch major new criminal probes of harsh interrogations and other alleged abuses by the Bush administration. But one idea that has currency among some top Obama advisers is setting up a 9/11-style commission that would investigate counterterrorism policies and make public as many details as possible. "At a minimum, the American people have to be able to see and judge what happened," said one senior adviser, who asked not to be identified for talking about policy matters. The commission would be empowered to order the U.S. intelligence agencies to open their files for review and question senior officials who approved "waterboarding" and other controversial practices.
The article, written by Michael Isikoff, came at the heels of another report by the Associated Press, which quoted a pair of anonymous Obama advisors as saying that there was little-to-no chance that an Obama Justice Department would try to prosecute Bush-era officials for torture. The same report quoted Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., as saying that members of the Bush administration would not face war crimes charges in the United States. "These things are not going to happen."
Common consensus is that the Bush administration has been the most lawless in U.S. history. From its illegal invasion of Iraq to the corporate-assisted, warrantless wiretapping of its own constituents, the Bush White House seems never to have held a view of the law from below. And, since long before the election of Barack Obama, a number of groups and individuals have called for accountability, from a vocal network of people calling for impeachment for Bush's illegal and fraudulent invasion of Iraq, to, this summer, the bluntly labeled campaign, Send Karl Rove to Jail.
But if ever there was a stain on the fabric of American democracy that must be deserving of prosecution, it is the dark legacy of torture left by the Bush administration. From Abu Ghraib to Guantanamo to the CIA's "secret sites," proof abounds that the U.S. government engaged in systematic torture that was approved by top government officials. Ironically, a central laboratory for this corrosion of the country's moral and legal code was the very office charged with defending the rule of law: the Department of Justice.
"It is these attorneys -- Alberto Gonzales, John Yoo, James Bybee, David Addington and William Haynes -- who provided the legal basis for much of the torture and abuse that occurred at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and other U.S. detention facilities around the globe," Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, writes in the recently published The Trial of Donald Rumsfeld: A Prosecution by Book. In Ratner's view, the prosecution of these attorneys, as well as Bush, Cheney and the rest, is a critical part of not just imposing accountability on those who approved and carried out torture in the name of the American people, but in dismantling a legal framework that could lead to more torture in the future.
'This Was an Assault on the Law Itself'
Members of the legal and human rights community are currently grappling with the question of how to hold the Bush administration accountable for its crimes. In a recent cover story of Harper's Magazine, human rights legal scholar Scott Horton lays out the rationale for pursuing the crimes of the Bush administration. The good news is there is plenty of historical precedent for going after government torturers in the United States. The bad news is that they have been uneven, at best. From an Army captain who was court-martialed for imposing the "water cure" on Filipinos during the Spanish-American War ("He was forced to pay a $50 fine") to Japanese military officials tried for war crimes (including waterboarding) after World War II -- some of whom were sentenced to death, the severity of the sanction has depended on who is meting it out.
Prosecuting the torturers of accused "terrorists" in far-away places may not inspire a call to action by Americans now -- especially when a few token prosecutions of soldiers have taken place (most famously, Abu Ghraib Army Reservists Cpl. Charles Graner and Pfc. Lynndie England). But a policy systematically designed to subvert the law should be intolerable to those who place any kind of faith in American democracy. Horton's article -- parts of which should be required reading -- discusses how, during the Nuremberg trials, "the Americans and Soviets … wanted to prosecute the people who had created the legal framework for the Nazi regime, but British and French leaders objected."
"Consequently, the United States, acting on its own, convened a separate Nuremberg tribunal to try lawyers, judges and legal policymakers," thereby establishing "the principal that policymakers who occurred the mandatory prohibitions of international law against harming prisoners in wartime could be prosecuted as war criminals, no matter how many internal memos they had written to the contrary."
This leads to a critical point: "The key issue that Scott pointed out in his article," Ratner says, "is that this was an assault on the law itself." If legal opinions that sanctioned torture are left untouched, it sets a dangerous precedent. As Ratner recently wrote on his blog, "If laws can be broken with impunity today, they can and will be broken with impunity tomorrow. Not just laws against torture and war crimes, but any and all laws; any and all limits on government."
"The only way to prevent this from happening again," he tells me, "is to have prosecutions that will send a deterrence message" to future administrations.
'We Owe the American People a Reckoning'
How to do this is the most pressing -- and difficult -- question. Horton considers the various forms such prosecutions might take, from the International Criminal Court (too dependent on the support of the United States) to foreign courts (viable, but "true justice cannot be compelled from without"), to domestic courts (unlikely, because prosecuting war crimes are rarely done against those at the top of the chain of command). Ultimately, he settles on a model of the truth-and-reconciliation commissions carried out in South America and South Africa. Although they have had imperfect results in the past -- "In some cases, a bargain was struck under which the truth about past misconduct was divulged in exchange for a pardon" -- the value of the commissions largely lies in the educational benefits a commission might bestow on the public. But beyond that, a "commission plus special prosecutor," as Horton calls it, could be carried out in public, in order to "find the facts, weigh them, and if the facts warrant, make a formal recommendation for the appointment of a prosecutor."
For Ratner, the models that have been suggested thus far don't go far enough. In his view, the only way to restore the rule of law is to pursue criminal investigation and prosecution. "People have been pulling their punches when it comes to seeking full prosecutions," he says, "because of the feeling that is not politically feasible." It may be true in the end, "but unless you demand it, you're not going to get it." Failing to try, he says is "the worst defeatism you can have."
Indeed, given the destruction of the past eight years to the fabric of American democracy, to shy away from torture prosecutions would seem profoundly -- and dangerously -- shortsighted. Obama has stated that as a country, the United States does not torture -- most recently in an interview with 60 Minutes -- and much of the support he gained as a candidate from the legal and human rights community was based on his vocal opposition to the Military Commissions Act. Although his opposition to torture has been unequivocal in tone, Obama has been hesitant to state in solid terms what exactly he would do about the torture that already took place. Responding to the question this summer, from a reporter from the Philadelphia Daily News, Obama responded:
What I would want to do is to have my Justice Department and my attorney general immediately review the information that's already there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued. I can't prejudge that because we don't have access to all the material right now. I think that you are right, if crimes have been committed, they should be investigated. You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve.
So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment -- I would want to find out directly from my attorney general -- having pursued, having looked at what's out there right now -- are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it's important -- one of the things we've got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing between really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings, and I've said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in cover-ups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it.
It's hard to imagine the lawlessness of the Bush administration falling short of "exceptional." But regardless, whether Eric Holder, Obama's pick for attorney general, would take this on is questionable. "Everybody has advice for Holder," Slate legal correspondent Dahlia Lithwick recently wrote, "starting with shuttering Guantanamo and repairing detention and interrogation policies; recalibrating the legal limits on information-gathering by intelligence agencies; doing away with provisions of the Patriot Act that encroach on civil liberties; and restoring the integrity and independence of the Office of Legal Counsel, which advises the president on the lawfulness of a proposed action." But Holder has been known to criticize the violations committed by the Bush administration. "We owe the American people a reckoning," he said in a speech in June.
Still, in Horton's opinion, although torture is a federal crime and a federal prosecutor has the power to prosecute it, it is unlikely any U.S. attorney would possess the independence to do so. "Indeed," says Horton, "so many high-level figures at Justice were involved in creating the legal mechanism for torture that the Justice Department has effectively disqualified itself as an investigative vehicle, even under a new administration." Ratner agrees.
So what is a "reckoning"? And where are the consequences?
For Ratner, now is the time to push Obama, hard, on seeking independent prosecutions, "partisan witch hunt" concerns be damned. After all, Obama brings with him enormous moral credibility. Lifting the stain of torture is a project that could -- and should -- transcend partisan politics. "Obama could change this (discussion) as he changed the dialogue on race in this country," suggests Ratner, "with a speech on torture."
"People say that prosecuting torture is 'looking backward,' " says Ratner, "but in my view, prosecutions are looking forward -- looking forward so that this doesn't happen again."
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Nodarse on Nov 28, 2008 2:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only way it could happen is if sufficient numbers of us, Democrats, Independents, and yes, Republicans too, get pissed off enough and demand it.
We don't need ballots, bullets or mass demonstrations that fizzle out after the next news cycle. We need massive civil disobedience and non-cooperation with the Federal Government. And it has to hurt.
Then, and only then, do we have chance to reclaim our Nation and our values. If not, then we deserve serfdom for ourselves, our children and every generation there after.
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» It isn't going to happen
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: like refusing to pay their credit card bills...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: like refusing to pay their credit card bills...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: I swear to God Bush is opening a FREEDOM CENTER in Dallas!!
Posted by: AlexLawyer
» The Democrats..
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Very Sad.
Posted by: christianslayer1955
» You missed your chance.
Posted by: Alan8
» RE: Very Sad.
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Very Sad.
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» NO DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS HAVE HAD A MAJORITY FOR 14 YEARS. THIS IS A FALSE
Posted by: Raymond Emerson
» RE: NO DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS HAVE HAD A MAJORITY FOR 14 YEARS. THIS IS A FALSE
Posted by: orwellturns
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 28, 2008 2:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The image of the United States planet wide is not just deplorable, but without merit. We have become bar sinister in more countries than most are aware of here and now. It is deserved we worked hard to achieve this. We stayed up nights to ensure the most heinous criminals we could conjure would be in positions of power and authority.
I do not know why we did this, only that it was done with a fervor that is ugly and shocking in a people that one time prided itself in fairness and even handed rulings. Well, that time is past, but fortunately we have a chance to relieve at least some of the terrible responsibility for these anti-social and anti-human acts. Personally I will never feel straight with my concept of God again. In my world God is love, by allowing this monster and his cronies’ reign I sold my human citizenship to a Demon of physical wealth and good material holdings.
I urge all to Read Vincent Bugliosi’s book: Prosecuting George W. Bush for murder! Some young lawyer could really make a name for himself and restore faith in this countries abilities to do good works by undertaking this work in the name of human rights and freedom pro bono. To say nothing of doing a good work for faith in spirit. Please someone out there Contact Vincent Bugliosi, and use his services to chase these monsters down.
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» HERE IS WHERE YOU CAN START!
Posted by: TarryFaster
» if that book was that much
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: if that book was that much
Posted by: Lauren
» Until there is a book about Barney Frank and Chris Dodd
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: Until there is a book about Barney Frank and Chris Dodd
Posted by: buschthebearrefreshing
» Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: GatoPreto
» RE: It is the civic duty of all Americans to proceed aganst the Bush Cabinet and incumbent Senate.
Posted by: bperk
» Your first sentence creates a problem...
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: I'm tried of your tactic, blame the victim
Posted by: Lauren
» A bit of good news?
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: Sparks56 on Nov 28, 2008 2:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Add this to slavery/Jim Crow, the annihilation of native North, Central, and South American cultures, the entire Viet Nam War, and the promotion and support of various dictators.
The crimes against humanity for which America needs to atone is a long one.
Given the peresent economic situation, it is extremely unlikely that we will see any investigation, let alone prosecution, into recent American crimes against humanity. We could try by publishing ALL the Abu Graib pictures. The really ugly ones were supressed.
It will be argued, rightfully, that the publication of those pictures will only stir up more Muslim/Iraqi hatred against America. ("Let sleeping dogs lay.")
I am a pessimist
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» RE: A Long List
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: A Long List
Posted by: Sparks56
» Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: If Bushco isn't investigated, I will vomit the Democratic Party from my soul, say never again!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: If Bushco isn't investigated, I will vomit the Democratic Party from my soul, say never again!
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: A Long List
Posted by: patfr
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 28, 2008 2:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are American, violence prone and violence bred. We love all the Gore for Glory horseshit we have been pumping for years. If there is not any real Icor going to be in the offing here none of us will go for it! Or, conversely if we do, millions will have to die before the Peaceniks will finally be all gone and the real slaughter can begin!
Do you think I over state or over simplify? Fine then start the ball rolling and see what it starts bouncing off of on its merry way to happy destiny. Some of us have been there and done that, we are un-bluffed by the Neo-Convict hard ass politicos and fluffy pink faeries flitting about the peanut butter and jelly skies of all is Security La La Land alike! You can lie to yourselves all you wish but you cannot lie to me! If we don’t put this monster centipede and his co-criminals in the hoosegow they are going to be back to do it all again just like that damn Terminator.
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» RE: So, don't get me wrong here I am all for Civil dissobedience
Posted by: hankgeorge
» RE: So, don't get me wrong here I am all for Civil dissobedience
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: So, don't get me wrong here I am all for Civil dissobedience
Posted by: Quannah
Comments are closed-
Posted by: dipconsult on Nov 28, 2008 2:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suggest it is unfair and unjust to prosecute those who carried out policy decided at the top by President G W Bush, Vice President Cheney, Mr. Rumsfeld and others, notably those who gave the legal advice.
And that it would be impolitic and difficult to go after them.
But surely there does need to be a truly independent and comprehensive enquiry - set up very soon - into what took place, at whose instigation, and why.
This need not waste government time, nor lay the new Administration open to charges of "witch hunting". And it would not involve the Justice Department investigating itself.
An obviously unbiassed and full report would
enable Congress to act to ensure future Adminstrations would not repeat the actions of the G W Bush Administration.
Domestically and internationally this would go a long way to recovering America's reputation - and impress all concerned with the way (unlike so many countries, Germany notably excepted) the US can face the truth of its past and so be able to put it behind it.
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» RE: dipconsult
Posted by: javajoe
» RE: dipconsult
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: dipconsult
Posted by: Von
» The Good German Defense doesn't work!
Posted by: marid
» RE: dipconsult: Xcuse Me!
Posted by: madmax427
Comments are closed-
Posted by: weathered on Nov 28, 2008 2:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Denial is very cruel, it blocks the association between cause and effect. Obfuscation is pernicious, it manipulates a lie and fashions it to a story and timeline.
The truth is very simple, its requires little, lies are very needy and requires lots of heavy lifting. If trust and respect were present the need for AlterNets and Truthdigs wouldn't be as great, but as long as MSM/PBS/NPR choreographs a screenplay of mis and disinformation the public suffers the one key component to relationships, trust.
A country that lies to itself, marginalizes itself. Unless we have the courage to confront our lies we'll remain as sick as our secrets.
Not seeking prosecution for the string of crimes committed in broad daylight by this administration is criminal and we'll ALL pay a terrible price.
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» RE: If revenge for 9/11
Posted by: babka
» RE: AMEN! weathered
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: weathered
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: weathered
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: weathered
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: weathered
Posted by: weathered
» RE: weathered
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: If revenge for 9/11
Posted by: willymack
» RE: If revenge for 9/11
Posted by: Lauren
» Why doesn't Alternet call for an investigation of 9/11?
Posted by: dustdevil
Comments are closed-
Posted by: madmax427 on Nov 28, 2008 11:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I sincerely believe in Your comments intentions, however I have one cravat: I do not believe this is a matter that needs to include "God". Common decency should be more than enough reason to take action.
At 57 years old, I do not address nor believe in, what is passed along as fact by 'organized' Religion as it is also a means of CONTROL over Men & Women: I believe it is a FARCE because MAN (or Woman) uses it to CONTROL the thoughts of Others, to Their benefit, NOT "God's". I believe this is important because You risk the support of Those who believe like Myself when You state "God" MUST be involved to rectify this and You also LOSE support from Your own base because They will believe 'praying' for Divine Intervention will be enough!
ACTION, taken by ALL Those who believe this MUST be repaired, is what is neccessary!
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: pelican beak on Nov 28, 2008 1:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OUR KING???????
Speak for yourself, Kimosabe. Many of us don't inhabit your Lala Land.
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» Here the LAW is King, instead of the King being the LAW
Posted by: editnetwork
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Posted by: christianslayer1955 on Nov 28, 2008 3:10 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: MINISTER
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: MINISTER
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: MINISTER
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: americansheep on Nov 28, 2008 4:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sirios on Nov 28, 2008 8:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: hell, the Senate gives standing ovations to 7time convicted FELONS
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: hell, the Senate gives standing ovations to 7time convicted FELONS
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Basenjis on Nov 28, 2008 9:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It does no good either to say "I told you so," though many of us could say it. Once we had choices for electing presidential candidates who were not only anti-war but who were also outspokenly pro-impeachment and they were rejected. So we are left with a man who at least, was legally elected by the people, so that's a good beginning.
Now it may be up to the people who elected him to insist on our day in court. To recover from years of Bush abuse, the country needs healing and some sense of closure to the disorienting effects of discovering the magnitude and the shame of the crimes committed by our own government and in our own names. Only with full exposure of these crimes and of the people responsible can genuine recovery take place. It may be up to us to get this across to a new and reluctant administration. It is our right as voters to demand it be done.
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» RE: CONGRESS INDICT
Posted by: rinthy
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Posted by: GatoPreto on Nov 28, 2008 3:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Obama: "I Can't do IT By Myself." Chomsky:"Changes and progress very rarely are gifts from above...
Posted by: JoAnne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: US Citizen 07 on Nov 28, 2008 4:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not up to our administration to right this wrong, it's up to us to make sure it is addressed.
Peoples dependancy on the government is a lot of the problem in today's world.
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» RE: Wait and See II
Posted by: christianslayer1955
» RE: Wait and See II
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: jbpaz on Nov 28, 2008 4:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Asking for a Dictator
Posted by: photon's feather
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Nov 28, 2008 4:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This ring of conspirators have not been haphazardly committing crimes, they have been putting pieces together to create a bigger picture. One Where the US is not an economic powerhouse, nor a 'Gold Standard' for other nations to try to emmulate, economically or uin regards to Rigths & Freedoms.
this Group has been Corporatizing the American Sysem of Laws. Effectively creating a caste Feudal system controlled by Logo's instead of Family Crests. They have been Trying to create the EXACT system our ancestors fled HERE.
they have undermined or Destroyed most aspects of the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. But what most fail to recognize is the Fact they have committed crimes which have undermined The Declaration of Independence. That Document was not just a Declaration of Freedom from the English Monarchy, It was a Declaration against ANY Monarchy Or dictatorship. This is why the Nixon phrase "If the Preident Does it, It's not illegal' IS at it's core ILLEGAL.Such adages are those of Kings, Not Presidents of Democracies.
Again Cheney Rummy Wolfie were all part of that adminstration and every other afterwards, and what has been proven is the continued operating policy that Presidents are above laws. This is a pattern of criminality against the MOST basic foundation of our Republic.
During an Interview Cheney was asked about his thoughts that most Americans wanted out of Iraq. His Response "So". Frankly I saw that as a Confession of Treason. If disregarding the Will of the Citizens of a Demcoracy is not Blatant Treason, Then we might as well stop calling ourselves a Democracy.the Great Experiment has failed and Now we need to figure out which form of Gov't we have been conquered by.Seems the 'Red Coats' took a while,but they have finally conquered the Colonies.
this is ONE area that I will not Compromise, That's been Done repeatedly and look what it has done to our 'Shining city'. I may hold Pres elect Obama in high regard, but failure to demand Justice for US will quickly change my mind about his morals & Ethics. This subject may be the one which turns Obama's 'community Organizing' network into his Frankenstein.
I want their Heads on Recycled Paper Plates ( the silver platters are far too good) and I am not a proponent of Capital Punishment, but in this instance, because of the extent and depth of these crimes, I want the Death penality for the Top players in this Decades long conspiracy to bring down our Free Market Democracy by Corporationists.
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» I love you Purple Girl. Let's crank these people UP!
Posted by: common intelligence
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Posted by: WhatNow? on Nov 28, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where else have I heard this? Ah yeah, bush said "we don't do torture".
"Although his opposition to torture has been unequivocal in tone, Obama has been hesitant to state in solid terms what exactly he would do about the torture that already took place."
The text I've highlighted with bold letters seems to be recurring theme with obomber. If he does happen to do something to clean up this mess, I'll be surprised and very pleased but I'm not too hopeful on this one. Also I've come to wonder if closing Guantanamo is a all style with no substance. I'm getting the idea that everything will just be moved elsewhere with little change on policy. Come on Obama I want to see you prove one of your naysayers wrong!
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» RE: lip service?
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: GatoPreto
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 2thepoint on Nov 28, 2008 4:57 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're kidding. I agree this is usually the realm of the CIA but this is light weight stuff..compare this to what Vietnam vets were subjected to or many other countries do this isn't torture. Harassment yes..torture no! Our CIA, Russia's KGb etc..etc do alot worse!
Should we be doing this? If it was to get info we felt was vital, yes, if it was just to play with their heads and for "enjoyment"..no..
I've encountered worse riding the NYC subway system!
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» Then volunteer
Posted by: EinMD
» Just another good German!
Posted by: marid
» RE: Kid stuff! Want to volunteer...
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: Kid stuff? Wonder how well you'd fare being waterboarded or sodomized or beaten?
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Torture is illegal, no matter who does it.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Kid stuff!
Posted by: Malamute
» RE: Kid stuff!
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Kid stuff!
Posted by: rinthy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Nov 28, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Vote w/your Wallet
Posted by: weathered
» RE: What if...
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy
» RE: What if...
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: What if...
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: What if...
Posted by: willymack
» RE: What if...
Posted by: weathered
» RE: What if...
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
Comments are closed-
Posted by: babka on Nov 28, 2008 6:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and long have liked to crucify.
You never asked the elder Bush
if he had made poor Barbara cry.
In this man's world a starlet will
advance the only way she knows.
"The heart has reasons" - friends of Bill.
"He can't do wrong right!" - from his foes.
Old jocks cry, "Let's go all the way!
Launch bombs! No blow jobs! Off the Chief"
Long years of slo-mo genocide
and now, big guns! Sweet Christ! Good grief!
This coup is rotten to the core
in spite of what the law has found;
the sex distracts us from the war
and not the other way around.
It's use or lose our armaments.
The world implodes in mad events,
just pausing long enough to back
a Final Solution for Iraq.
========================
rhetorical questions
1. why is Bush untouchable?
2. why were the Nazis put on trial for crimes against humanity?
3. Is protest "old-hat"? Have we already "done" impeachment over a folly, so we don't want to repeat ourselves over war profiteering and genocide rooted in contempt for the "Other"?
4. Will an "Otherly" President do the right thing?
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Posted by: javajoe on Nov 28, 2008 6:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama=Good Cop Bush:Bad Cop ?
Republicratic Party ?
Same Old Stuff ?
Tweedldum and Tweedledee ?
New Boss, Same As The Old Boss ?
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 28, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 28, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: being an ass
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: being an ass - I don't defend him
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: I don't defend him. Oh, yes you do.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I don't defend him. Oh, yes you do.
Posted by: rinthy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thinkverybig on Nov 28, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't obey the law!
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» RE: Send BUSH to Jail!
Posted by: rideyourbike11
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Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals on Nov 28, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Anything can be rationalized
Posted by: marid
» RE: First of all, learn to spell, and while you are at
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: First of all, learn to spell, and while you are at
Posted by: Quannah
» Untill Barney Frank and Chris Dodd
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: You guys won, what more do you want!
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: You guys won, what more do you want!
Posted by: Quannah
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Carol Burns on Nov 28, 2008 7:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: They WILL BE IMPEACHED AND PROSECUTED
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Crimes We Know About Are Probably Just the Tip of the Iceberg
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lauren on Nov 28, 2008 9:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why don't you give us your qualifications to make this grand claim.
My qualifications to say they will be caught and punished is that I am their well documented victim and I expect to actually see my own justice carried out. I have lots of friends.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 28, 2008 11:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sirios on Nov 28, 2008 8:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: sirios
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
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Posted by: wagnerrocks@gmail.com on Nov 28, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kellysgarden on Nov 28, 2008 8:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The evidence of this is scientifically proven by the evidence of thermite in the dust samples. The laws of physics also disprove a free-fall rate of speed for the three WTC towers.
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» What about Fannie/Fred?
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: Simplest way to prosecute is to reopen 9/11 commission
Posted by: buzzsaw
» May I suggest you do a bit more research? Start at ae911truth.org
Posted by: LeftWright
» Please Remove Head...
Posted by: schiffer
» RE: Simplest way to prosecute is to reopen 9/11 commission
Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: Simplest way to prosecute is to reopen 9/11 commission
Posted by: weathered
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kathy-B on Nov 28, 2008 8:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, if it doesn't happen, what will really make me mad is that we get to support these criminals for the rest of their lives.
Very sad.
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Posted by: wolfgangpmay on Nov 28, 2008 8:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look us up un the web!
Wolfgang P. May
Advisory Team Leader
in the "Iron Triangle"
Republic of Vietnam
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» RE: link
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: link
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: link
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Archie1954 on Nov 28, 2008 10:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Criminal acts
Posted by: rinthy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jmmartin on Nov 28, 2008 10:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Naturally, at the very least, everyone in the room when Condoleeza assigned types of torture to categories of detainee, is culpable, not to forget Rummy and, perhaps, the neo-con crowd, all of whom exited the cabinet once they saw the Iraqi War was a fiasco. I'm talking Frum types, Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, Richard Perle, the Ugliest Americans of them all.
But the benefit of such an airing of grievances and full examination of the problem from a non-partisan POV outweighs the political fallout from Kucinich style show trials. We ask them to apologize. If they don't, at least they've been exposed to scrutiny and will live as quasi-pariahs the rest of their days.
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» RE: Many Approaches
Posted by: javajoe
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Nov 28, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"As Ratner recently wrote on his blog, 'If laws can be broken with impunity today, they can and will be broken with impunity tomorrow. Not just laws against torture and war crimes, but any and all laws; any and all limits on government.' "
A perfect example of this was the preemptive pardoning of Richard Nixon by Gerald Ford "for the good of the nation." This has led directly to the abuses and excesses, and shredding of our Constitution, by the Bush neocons. No punishment, no deterrence.
We find ourselves at a similar crossroads now, but with an important difference: the criminality of the Bush administration is far, far worse than was Nixon's (and from some of the same characters who surrounded Nixon), and is not by any estimate limited to the abuses of detainees. In fact, if the sum total of Bush administration criminality were ever published in one place, it would beggar the imagination. The article spotlights detainee abuses, as other articles have spotlighted other abuses by Bush, precisely because adding them all up is just too taxing to calculate, too widespread to be believable.
But believe them we must.
If we do not establish once again that we are a nation of LAWS, not men, and if we do not commit to Bush's cabal the ONLY thing criminals understand – harsh punishment – then abuse by our own government will, undoubtedly, happen again and most likely be even worse yet. The next time, we may be closer to Nazi-style fascism than any of us can envision if we do not act now.
Let's act preemptively, and start our own "Nuremberg Trials" today.
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» RE: Ah... Nixon!
Posted by: Quannah
» how about
Posted by: babka
» RE: Are we heading for a new beginning or a Third Reich future?
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: never again
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ringo on Nov 28, 2008 10:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are major questions outstanding regarding Bush & the administrations culpability, substance, competence etc.. “W” has left the USA in distressing need of at minimum a major image make-over. There are no clear answers to our problems, however the US needs to win back confidence by bucking up and displaying leadership.
First stop the money-corruption cycle, do away with political-influence money and lobbyists by funding our election campaigns exclusively from the US tax dollar with equal amounts of money to support the top five candidates. Vote with your ballot for if you vote with the dollar big money is winning now and will win every time.
Second request independent unimpeded UN and/or World Court investigation(s) of bush II & staff. If requested turn any or all over to a Word Court for further war crimes investigation and any suggested penalty. The proceedings should be held in a Nuremberg form court of law with goals to find out and daylight what bushII and the Texas Taliban have done to our rights & liberties as well as addressing war crimes and/or treasonous acts carried out by leadership.
Third turn all 02-04 election records over to an independent UN committee for investigation and possible corrective and/or punitive measures.
Fourth request the UN provide unrestricted oversight of our future presidential elections.
Fifth validate the treaties so rashly nullified post 9/11. Void the legal opinion from former Justice Department official John Yoo asserting that Bush possessed unlimited authority as Commander in Chief, including the power to have military interrogators abuse terror suspects.
Sixth Repeal the Patriot act, FISA laws, Military Commissions Act of 2006 and The Protect America Act, John Warner National Defense Authorization Act, Roll all our rights and liberties back (or should I say forward) to the pre-drug war days and reinstitute laws only if they pass stringent (read Libertarian) Constitutional tests.
Seven Israel/Palestine have squandered our credibility, money and efforts over a ~60 year span and still unable to settle their differences. Give 90 days notice, wash our hands of all responsibilities, pull out and let the chips fall where they may.
Eight restore the possibility of a third party (real choice) winning an election. See number one.
Nine punish the politicos for corruption not the usual symbolic slap on the hand we now accept as justice for our elected officials. Twenty years without possibility of parole is justified for selling out our country and nation.
Ten rigorously enforce the separation of church and state mandate.
Eleven. Our justice system is too important a component of the US balance of powers to play fast and loose. Investigate the bush II prosecutor dismissals and the Roberts/ Alito Supreme Court appointments if any impropriety's are evident replace the appointments in question with new candidates. The Bush administration & DOJ are not cooperating with investigations. Key administration players are refusing to testify and the Attorney General has memory problems.
Twelve. As long as we are digging up bones we need to look at all the bones. To maintain our own internal balance we need to expend some effort in answering US historical questions not satisfied or glossed over by government responses. Determine the extent of credibility of but not limited to: Eisenhower’s Military-Industrial Complex warning, the warren Commission report, Iran-Contra, Jackson & Kent State, PNAC, Danforth Report, The Nixon, Hoover and Joe McCarthy activities, MK-ultra, The Cold War, 9/11, FISA court, flight 800, and our records classification process.
Last The Department of Defense is a distancing euphemism; restore its original name 'The War Department'.
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» RE: The Post-bush recovery period
Posted by: ranger1
» Please add the Oklahoma City bombing to your number twelve
Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: The Post-bush recovery period JOIN NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cherylholmes on Nov 28, 2008 10:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do you think they're attacking the Americans and British in Bombay? Why do you think they are asking to see passports? Because they love us? Hell no, you'll see a lot more attacks on the Americans and British everywhere. This is only the beginning. We're scum of the earth and we will pay for it!
Politicians are all part of it too, and so are we because we elected them and allowed them to torture and kill innocent people. We allow them to invade soverign countires and kill millions. No one will prosecute them so we ALL pay. Our silente compliance means we approve of everything they do making all of us guilty.
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» RE: Getting Offed
Posted by: americansheep
» RE: Getting Offed
Posted by: Quannah
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Annapurna1 on Nov 28, 2008 11:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but one truth that obama spoke during the campaing is that power will not concede without a fight...and LION..it is incumbent on we the ppl to fight that fight if we are to hold obama to his word....
the good news..however..is that the boumediene decision from the SCOTUS could facilitate prosecutions of future war crimes...
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Posted by: aonghus36 on Nov 28, 2008 11:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A pardon would take care of those costly distractions.
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» RE: I think they are NOT already pardoned.
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Caesar77 on Nov 28, 2008 12:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are not better than the Nazis, if we let this little bastard, and his follow thugs, off the hook.
I mean, are we stupid.?
Obama and Palosi are complicit in murder/war crimes and human rights abuses, if they don't act, for the good of humanity by seeking retribution.
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» Right on, Caesar77
Posted by: harryf200
» Nancy Pelosi...morals...LOL!!!
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Caesar77
Posted by: Von
» RE: Caesar77 join NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
Comments are closed-
Posted by: redroadtraveler on Nov 28, 2008 12:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I confronted my prosecutor with the fact that he committed perjury and obstruction of justice in order to "win" his case, he simply sneered at me, laughed in my face, and said "WE don't have to FOLLOW the law, we ARE the law."
The Bush escapades of the last eight years are simply a continuation and further extension of what REALLY goes on in America.
It all comes under the heading of people not believing it until it happens to them ... and by then it's too late.
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» RE: The Justice Department?
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: The Justice Department? join NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Quannah on Nov 28, 2008 1:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They had their chance to do something. As we all watched, we saw they chose to do nothing. And that choice was not made to protect Bush, but to cover their own asses.
I expect nothing will be done. I say don't bother with any "Special Commission" which will have no teeth in it, nor will any crimes be prosecuted once discovered. (They admitted they have tortured at least three times!) That would be an even bigger slap in the face to those of us who seek justice for these criminals.
This is disgusting on so many levels.
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» RE: The Fact of the Matter is the majority of those in the Legislative Branch...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Fact of the Matter is the majority of those in the Legislative Branch...
Posted by: Darwin26
» RE: The Fact of the Matter is the majority of those in the Legislative Branch...
Posted by: Quannah
Comments are closed-
Posted by: harryf200 on Nov 28, 2008 1:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Greenhouse Neutral Foundation on Nov 28, 2008 2:51 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bob Williamson
www.strategicbookpublishing.com/ZEROGreenhouseEmissions.html
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» RE: Far to many pressing problems on Obama's hands
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: And if Obama doesn't see Bush is charged, he will share the blame
Posted by: americansheep
» RE: Far to many pressing problems on Obama's hands
Posted by: Darwin26
Comments are closed-
Posted by: choirboy on Nov 28, 2008 7:07 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Quannah
» I mostly agree, but . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: lenox
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Von
» Arrest Silverstein/Bushcon for 9/11
Posted by: weathered
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Nov 28, 2008 7:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill Clinton's administration invented "extraordinary rendition," more prosaically known as kidnapping, forced disappearance, conspiracy to violate human rights and torture by proxy.
Any investigation, and subsequent prosecutions, cannot rely on a de facto statute of limitations for offenses prior to 20 January 2001, so Obama will scuttle the whole concepts of rule of law, accountability and respect for human rights. While he might halt the outrages, he will neither regain the respect of the world and the tolerance of our potential enemies by prosecuting the guilty, nor deter future wrongdoing.
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» RE: Obama's First Priority: Protecting Clinton & Co.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Obama's First Priority: Protecting Clinton & Co. join NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
» RE: Obama's First Priority: Protecting Clinton & Co.
Posted by: Darwin26
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AlwaysAskWhy on Nov 28, 2008 8:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any knowledgeable, intelligent human being... every federal official, particularly the next president, KNOWS THESE ARE WAR CRIMES, CRIMES AGAINST THE STATE, CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!!! IMPEACHABLE, PROSECUTABLE CRIMES..PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
WE ARE A NATION OF LAWS...AND THE LAW HAS BEEN BROKEN...OVER AND OVER...ARROGANTLY AND WANTONLY. These crimes are the REASON the American People were DETERMINED to elect Obama...the hope that Bush and Cheney will be prosecuted!!! It is OUTRAGEOUS to think that Obama will tiptoe around it... FOR ANY REASON. NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT AT THIS MOMENT THAN TO SEE THESE MASS MURDERERS, THESE RAIDERS AND RAPERS OF THIS NATION AND THE WORLD, BEHIND BARS!! ANY LESS IS NOT ONLY A SLAP IN THE FACE OF ALL AMERICANS, BUT A CLUB OVER OUR HEADS! IT MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH TO THINK THAT OBAMA WILL PROTECT AND DEFEND BUSH AND CHENEY!!!!! MY GOD!!!!
JESUS H. CHRIST!!! GEORGE W. BUSH, RICHARD CHENEY, CONDOLEEZA RICE, DONALD RUMSFELD, RICHARD MEYERS HAVE MURDERED OVER ONE MILLION HUMAN BEINGS!!!! MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!! AND DESTROYED NOT JUST ONE NATION, IRAQ, BUT AFGHANISTAN, AND DESTROYED THE UNITED STATES AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ECONOMICALLY!!!!
BUSH AND CHENEY (Rice, Rove, Ashcroft, Gonzalez, Libby, Pearle, Wolfowitz, Meyers, Rumsfeld) should ALL BE TRIED, CONVICTED AND SPEND THE REST OF THEIR LIVES IN PRISON... NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTTS.
If Barack Obama minces words, parses descriptions and legalities on these crimes.. trying to avoid accountability for the most despicable, destructive, violent, insane administration in the history of this nation.. then those Americans who elected him should be rioting in the streets... because surely WE ARE THEN A TRULY FASCIST NATION... WITH ALL THE DANGERS, DEATH, DESTRUCTION AND POVERTY/ STARVATION THAT WILL GO WITH IT. If Obama DOES NOT PROSECUTE, then HE SHOULD ALSO BE HELD, LIKE PELOSI, GUILTY OF COMPLICITY, GUILTY OF HARBORING CRIMINALS...GUILTY OF VIOLATING HIS OATH OF OFFICE, GUILTY OF TREASON AND WAR CRIMES!! THE BLOOD OF BLOWN UP BABIES IS DRIPPING THROUGH THEIR HANDS, TOO.
IF OBAMA IS TOO MUCH A COWARD TO PROSECUTE THESE SOCIOPATHS, THEN WE, AS A NATION, ARE COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY SCREWED. DEMOCRACY IS DEAD. THERE IS NOTHING LEFT IN OUR FUTURE, BUT POSSIBLY MASS VIOLENCE TO RECLAIM OUR NATION.
IS THAT WHAT OBAMA AND "HIS" MINIONS (LIKE CLINTON) WANT? REALLY?????
WILL WE EVER BE ABLE TO WAKE UP FROM THIS NIGHTMARE???
IMPEACHMENT AND PROSECUTION SAYS TO THE WORLD, "WE'RE SORRY!" PROBABLY THE ONLY APOLOGY THE WORLD WILL ACCEPT FROM THIS NATION OF SELF-INVOLVED, INDIFFERENT CITIZENS.
ARREST BUSH AND CHENEY (ET AL) NOW!!
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» RE: NOTHING SHORT OF LIFE IN PRISON FOR BUSH, CHENEY, ET AL!
Posted by: Darwin26
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jeanne on Nov 28, 2008 9:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: At the very least join NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
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Posted by: MausMasher54 on Nov 28, 2008 9:41 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: No Criminal Charges, but Civil Charges,
Posted by: AlexLawyer
» RE: Criminal Charges, Civil Charges,
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 28, 2008 10:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been trying to amp you Alterneters for over 7 years.
SO many of us writing point hitting directly on nailing the whole administration for impeachment, 911, depleated uraniuam, Phosperous bombs, spying, braking constitutional law, ..my god YOu don't have enough evidence.? The congress has even said we do . But nothing is happening because you all are not hammering your reps for one and flooding the population, coffee shops.
The target is unity! '......Say what?
COngressmen (WOmen) are saying, "they don't want to push Impeachment because they believe it will do more to divide the country and right now we need to 'unity' " That's BULL SHIT.
Fact is they don't give-a-shit what we say. They aren't listening and are literally ignoring the real face of public demands and voices. The reason being , "they have their own agenda.
With people as Nancy Pelosi and Diane Feinstein agreeing but caving saying "it would only further divide US" we need to HAMMER divison if they don't impeach.
THIS IS THAT TARGET.
They have given us the go ahead but it's up to us to recognize the position we must take and PUSH PUSH PUSH.
YOU people are too frigging comfortable.
You have to get mad as hell stick you dead heads out the window and scream at the top of you lungs, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gong to take it any longer".
Dennis Kucinich laid out a road map, Congressman Wexlar is riding point on Impeachment but you all voted for OBAMA!
What'd you think he was the holy grail?
We've got the tools to make this group of treasonous, pirates in jail.
The whole world knows it the congress knows it. The nation knows it.
STop letting the MSM railroad our country down the toilet.
This is the "school of rock". You people have no faith in yourselves. And unless we get every single peoson we know to sign , patitions, march on the nation, identify the BUSH attorneies, the whole leacherous banking sytem , Federal reserve coup d'tate' The pentagon, The CIA.
John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther KIng gave their lives for truth and true democracy. Jefferson, Eisenhower warned the people.
On and on. now hundreds of scholars, economists engineers, architects, social scientists, the very educated of this country know the truth.
Don't let "them" discount our education. We've had over eight years of learning what the fuck is going down. That's equivalent of a doctorate degree.
The US can only be united in true democracy with accountabiliity.
Don't give up, never give up. be relentless, enduring, like John Henry's hammer. Never stop pounding at the bastards.
Right now the media is distrating the nation with dramatic event happening around the world. Mean while we get mesmerized and loose track of our job right here.
DON"T LOOSE TRACK AND BE DISTRACTED. The BATTLE IS HERE>
NEVER FORGET IT, NEVER LET THE MEDIA GET YOU OFF BALANCE.
Don't let them weaken our strength just because you can't pay you rent , your mortgage etc.
Every single day write , scream, talk it up. This is our country no matter what.
Don't feel disempowered.
Do be self empowered
Dress for success over the system, the Bush Head, the cronies,
Don't let yourselves be overshadowed by deceat and lies and wars around the world. We are warriors here on the home front.
Pessimism is not acceptable. We don't need any more proof. We have all the proof.
We all know the truth. Come On. Crank up the amp !
NOW get out there and give'm hell like Harry Reid never though of.
Slam Nancy Pelosi,
Slam Diane Feinstein.
Slam all the bastards.
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» RE: IS everyone just now waking Up? Or still dragging your asses?
Posted by: Darwin26
» RE: IS everyone just now waking Up? Or still dragging your asses?
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: willymack on Nov 28, 2008 10:37 PM
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Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 28, 2008 10:57 PM
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IS everyone just now waking Up? Or still dragging your asses?
Tere are so many criminal charges that can be made and as some in the system have said you quoted :"People say that prosecuting torture is 'looking backward,' " says Ratner, as I have said "but in my view, prosecutions are looking forward -- looking forward so that this doesn't happen again."
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Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 28, 2008 11:08 PM
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Has anyone ever wondered why Kenneth Staar, prosecuting attorney with a vengence on Clinton has not been heard from in regard to the idea that he was in collusion with the NeoCon PNAC machine?
Why has this never been given any thought to? There has to be some sculldugery in the pit of that story that warrents investigation and in my opinion prosicution for extortion. DO you think Bill Knowthe story? and won't tell?
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» RE: One curious question......
Posted by: MausMasher54
» RE: One curious question......
Posted by: Darwin26
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Posted by: vot on Nov 28, 2008 11:41 PM
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Posted by: Von on Nov 29, 2008 12:04 AM
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If anybody gives a care, go to arabwomanblues.blogspot.com and atleast read two posts. One is entitled HOME SWEET HOME and the other is BRAINDEAD
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Posted by: grahamhgreen on Nov 29, 2008 12:06 AM
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The Torturer Movie
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Posted by: robchapman on Nov 29, 2008 6:38 AM
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It is vitally important that the Obama Administration reform our policies regarding hard interrogation.
All of the different aspects of the questions surrounding interrogation and torture must be considered at once. We must make a clear and meaningful stand and forbid torture. We must also provide for robust interrogation techniques that will elicit needed information regarding troop movements or terrorist plans.
We cannot continue this conversation as an either or proposition, both the civil liberties and the security aspects of interrogation and detention must be weighed and appropriate policies set in place.
Demagogic pictures and prose such as Ms. Segura's only inflame passions and make it harder to devise real world solutions for real world problems.
Robert Chapman
Lansing, NY
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» RE: No Witch Hunt
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: amacd on Nov 29, 2008 3:30 PM
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However, we can only say this with a clear conscious, and defend our moral compasses, if we have made every effort to circumvent the 'Vichy' government, resisted the 'Vichy' media's lies and deceptions, and have fully engaged, as our fore fathers did, in battling this guileful political economic empire within our own country and have given our last full measure of democratic blood in openly revolting against this murderous Empire that is speaking and acting against our interests but falsely in our name.
The redemption of the American people can only come before, and not after, this murderous ruling-elite fascist Empire have shot themselves and burned their bodies in a bunker awaiting an external corrective force.
As the old Fram oil-filter TV ad used say, "You can pay me now, or pay me later."
Will Americans allow themselves to be held complicit in the destruction of our world community?
Certainly, an American Constitutional lawyer and scholar should consider that solemnly.
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» RE: We're not responsible --- if we revolt
Posted by: Darwin26
» RE: We're not responsible to understand what really has to be done if we don't want to.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 29, 2008 8:21 PM
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They whole the throttle of this run-away train in their hands. We're all in the baggage car.
UNless the powers that control the MIC support the people and exposing the truth we haven't got a friggin icecubes chance in hell.
I'm getting stressed too much to worry for an out come that can't happen unless you people take up retalitory efforts to actually organize a mass of the population to control your representatives and senators.
Making them bring the issues up front and center.
Marx was right. "The only way to change the system is by a violent revolution or a slow metmorphosis". The slow way benefits no one alive. Times not on our side.
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Posted by: hilly7 on Nov 29, 2008 10:28 PM
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Posted by: Darwin26 on Nov 29, 2008 10:32 PM
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I'm sick of these apologists - they had no problem sending me off to die in Viet Nam but ask the Chumps like Conyers and to own up to Article II Section 4 of the Constitution is falling on deaf ears.
Thanks Scott for your article and Rattners article but we need ppl to fax and push the HJC to get Impeachment on the table.
See National Impeachment Network NIN@impeachforpeace.org >>> we are amassing another push during the lame duck session.
PS i read some guys pitch and the Jesus Almighty stuff really just creeps me out.
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Posted by: Von on Nov 29, 2008 10:34 PM
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Posted by: ImpeachmentDiane on Nov 30, 2008 3:25 AM
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Posted by: Longdream on Nov 30, 2008 6:35 AM
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When I think of this country's "nature", I think of its people. And I think we've just proven that, after having a shitty taste of the war brew we've been given, everyone except the most mindless of us was eager to spit it out.
I don't think anyone here wouldn't like to see the people who did the shimmy and shake to rape us all get their hard comeuppance. But a realist will understand that there is a matter of priorities, now.
What do we need first? Cheney on the block, or health insurance that takes care of everyone? Bush made to eat shit, or new jobs?
I'm not trying to make false juxtapositions, but I am saying that sometimes, in an emergency environment, it's not possible to do every single thing we'd like to do. And we don't even know if the steps the new administration is planning will be able to keep our economy from collapsing. The truth is that NO ONE KNOWS.
I don't think that the reluctance to prioritize prosecution and punishment for the previous administration means that the transitional government has no commitment to justice. That's a highly prejudicial way to put the problem.
My attention is focused on the economy, the plight of the old poor and the new poor, foreign policy in our relationships with Israel vis a vis Muslim and Arab countries, the possibilities of intractable war if we don't handle said relationships brilliantly, the development of new technologies that will save our environment...fifty other priorities before I need to see the country's attention and resources arrested by Bush and Cheney for any more years.
Yes, I'd LOVE to see them broke and embarrassed. But not as much as I want to see people taken care of, and our country regain its footing in the world, and I'm not naive enough to think that we can do it all.
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Posted by: SEDGFLD on Nov 30, 2008 8:34 AM
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» RE: Challenging Americans
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: pana on Nov 30, 2008 4:06 PM
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Posted by: Sheldonjohns on Nov 30, 2008 6:25 PM
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My family has suffered severely over the last 35 years from the hands of shadow predators masquerading as Psychiatrists, Physicians, Social workers, Teachers, Government officials and a host of other Professions in order to enact fear and paranoia in their savage campaign to gain control of my family’s mind and behavior thru their State sponsored unethical Human Research Programs.
It is a conspiracy that is so monstrous that no one would want to believe it actually happened. These Individuals operates with total Impunity with Gestapo like powers and they hide within our Government’s Administrations throughout this Country.
Thru prayer and countless research I discovered what I believe to be the truth of what has happened to my family. Base on uncanny similarities of victims of a secret Government program, Congressional Records and testimonials that can be substantiated through the Freedom of Information Act, I believe that my family has been targeted for Human Research thru an elaborate unethical program that changes its name often called MKULTRA.
It all started in the latter part of the 60’s when the Drew daycare facility that cared for my oldest sibling Ward Johnson, convinced my mother to enroll him into Dr. Margaret Lawrence of Harlem Hospital program for kids with special needs simply because he wouldn’t play with other kids – which they claimed.
A host of social workers and Dr. Lawrence eventually convinced my mother to enroll him into a special boarding school call Childville to correct his “problem” of playing by himself because they inform her that the board of education would not accept kids that are considered anti-social.
She was instructed to hold him out of school at the age of 6 and that they will provide her with a special school that would accept him and correct his “problem” of not wanting to play with other children.
In the summer of 1970 after Ward turn 7 years old he entered into Childville, a division of the Jewish child care association of New York City - Our lives has never been the same ever since his admission into that dreadful institution. It was there she found out that Ward was a prodigious savant who had incredible abilities... A fact that Dr. Lawrence hidden from her.
Shortly after his enrollment into Childville, Ward started to exhibit severe personality changes that alarmed my mother that made her wanting to remove him from their so call “boarding school.” - It was then that the staff of Childville informed my mother that my brother no longer belong to her because she signed away her parental rights to BCW, when she enrolled him into their program and that he now belong to the New York State Foster Care System.
My mother tried to get help as she fought valiantly for her son but the rogue elements within our Government flexed their muscle and utilized every agency imaginable in the City of New York to strip away her rights as they participated in this covert unethical experimentation of my brother.
My family has been terrorized and abused by these demented officials and physicians who all swore an oath to uphold the law and to protect and serve and preserve a human life.
Suddenly problems started to occur within our household as we became victims of repeated break-ins, vicious rumors and sabotage of reputation.
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Posted by: Sheldonjohns on Nov 30, 2008 6:26 PM
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My mother was arrested after she “rescued” Ward from Childville by refusing to return him after a weekend visit - My brother’s and I was place into the custody of BCW because of the fact that she refuse to allow Childville to retain the parental rights to my brother Ward.
My brother’s and I were injected with some type of medication while in the custody of BCW after my mother's arrest in april of 1974. After that we all were diagnose with different types of physiological problems. My white blood cells became very low, Trevis started developing problems with his left eye (white mass bumps) and swelling in his left breast and Sean lost all the hair over his entire body.
Shortly afterwards, our problems escalated within our household as the vandalism intensified and we became the victim of gang stalking, rumors, harassment by housing employees and even betrayal by close friends and family members.
My mother has now become a target of psychological warfare from the conspirators as they focus their attention upon her to keep her quiet and occupied with problems.
Numerous attempts of witchcraft have been used to keep her psychological captive and manageable for their sadistic plot they had in store for her and her family. The harassment grew more bizarre and severe every time she reached out for help from the proper authorities.
She later found salvation in her newfound faith in Jehovah God, and was able to function with some sense of normalcy despite the many persecutions she experienced daily in everyday life. She had to endure further heartache when the conspirators turn their attention on her youngest son Sean whom they damaged severely with their behavioral modification program.
Trevis was severely damage by these predators as he was drugged thru the board of education, Children Services and when they rail-road him into prison - Where they expose him to untold persecutions and mind – altering Drugs. All this was done covertly without the consent of my mother.
I became “alienated” from my family because of the escalating trouble that we was having in our household and I began to rebel against my mother which force me into foster care at the tender age of 16. Once there they work feverishly to get me on mood- stabilizing medication and even threaten to withhold my allowance if I refuse to comply with their pharmaceutical regiment that they had laid out for me.
I refused to take the medication and went on to graduated with honors and started working in the construction business at the age of 18 after I finish school. I now realize that God preserved me for a purpose when he allowed me to be place into foster care and protected me from the human research predators – much like he allowed Joseph to be sold into Egypt and use him to protect his family and his people in a time of distress. Satan had Joseph brothers sell him into slavery for wickedness but God allowed it to happen for righteousness, because he had a purpose for Joseph.
My mother life seems to always be “troubled” and “busy” as she fought for the rights for her family. She didn’t even have the time to look into the huge amount of heir’s property that her late cousin (Wavy Lackey) promised her in Covington, Georgia which ended up in the hands of a powerful southern attorney by the name of Pat Campbell and an illegitimate relative name Lester Lackey.
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Posted by: Sheldonjohns on Nov 30, 2008 6:27 PM
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Or was she just a victim of double jeopardy as she and my brother’s continue to be victimized and terrorized by numerous governmental agencies? Her problems took a turn for the worse when they turn their attention to my niece Geneva Johnson who was "legally" kidnap by family court Supervising Judge Susan K. Knipps and Children Services (ACS).
The Predators decided to go after my mother and try to give her a psych history in order to discredit her. They used my niece Geneva as a ransom to try to get my mother psychologically evaluated. They endangered the welfare of my niece and exposed her to untold horrors that any child shouldn’t have to endure. These individuals would go to any extremities to prove a point that doesn’t exist.
My brother Trevis started disclosing facts about what happened to him and wanted to take civil action against his predators. They found ways to make his case disappear and out-dated as they forced him into a residential home (Pilby) and continued their illegal experiments on him until the day that he died.
Was my brother murdered to keep him from talking about the years of ritual abuse and force medication that was done to him by rogue physicians operating with total impunity from someone within our Government?
Why did the Hospitals, NYPD, Paramedics, Social Workers and the Medical Examiners office demonstrate gross-negligence and deceit, leading up to the unusual events of my brother’s death?
Was this part of their “final solution” to rid themselves of members of my family… and if so, who’s next?
Who in our Government is allowing these Hitler like atrocities to take place on unsuspecting American Citizens violating every Human, Civil and Constitutional law of God and Man?
This is domestic terrorism of the worst kind and this is why this story must be made public and the guilty must stand trial for their crimes.
My family and countless others that the Government deems to be expendable may be the beginning of what some rogue officials have in store for America's future. Please don’t forget that this is still a government for the people and by the people. We must all work together to bring this story to the light to rid ourselves of this social cancer - Because today it’s my family that is suffering and tomorrow it may be yours. Please help spread the word by forwarding and signing the Petition below to end ALL Illegal Human Research Programs In America!
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/293806954
Contact info: Sheldon Johnson 570-424-9432the_realdealoneal@yahoo.com
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» RE: The old "Lone Nut" Conspiracy Theory Classic...
Posted by: joeocho88
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Posted by: joeocho88 on Dec 1, 2008 6:30 AM
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In those days,Women could not vote. African Americans could not vote, even the FREE BLACKS were harassed, and the Native Americans were being genocided off of land that was rightfully theirs.
THIS WAS GOVERNMENT FOR THE ARISTOCRACY,BY THE ARISTOCRACY and ALL BENEFITS ACCRUING TO THE ARISTOCRACY.
It was NEVER meant as a DEMOCRACY!
It took a LOT of ARM TWISTING and who knows WHAT to get a BILL OF RIGHTS that applied to ALL of us!
THIS WAS A FEUDAL SOCIETY BASED ON AGRICULTURE!
The descendants of these wealthy ARISTOCRATS and those who were devious enough to obtain the wealth to join them in their rarefied circles of power and influence CONTINUE to run this country.
No matter WHAT SUPERFICIAL LABEL they put on the outside, they have ALWAYS stuck together to maintain their power and influence and they always will.
Before you start praising Mr. Obama as being The MESSIAH or DIFFERENT from the usual, I suggest you run the genealogy and THEN tell me how DIFFERENT he really is.
I think he will be better than the open cesspools of corruption we have had but that won't take much...
WE ALL hope that he will do the right thing by us ORDINARY AMERICAN CITIZENS who are NOT in the ELITE RULING CLASS from the Northeastern region centers of power and influence.
WE ARE THE WORKER BEES FROM WHENCE THE TAX REVENUES THAT SUPPORT THESE POLITICAL SCHEMES COME AND IF WE DON'T HAVE JOBS, THEY DON"T HAVE REVENUE.
I guess they are so out of touch they FORGOT that one fact of life.
And angry, hungry people who do not have jobs might have the time to come together and realize what has happened and figure out a SOLUTION! It ALMOST happened in the 1930s but any World War that would presume to bail us out of our present economic malaise would destroy the planet...
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Posted by: Chairman Matt on Dec 3, 2008 3:30 AM
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Posted by: cori on Dec 3, 2008 5:56 PM
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Posted by: afrothetics2 on Dec 3, 2008 6:54 PM
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» Oh Really - Obama is not a minority?
Posted by: bessie
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Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Dec 4, 2008 11:54 PM
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There may be cases where they slipped up and did not rewrite the laws of the land to match their dictatorial delights. Were these laws constitutional? They were never reviewed. They are constitutional until they are reviewed and found otherwise. Besides with only one democrat on the supreme court review could only fall off to the right.
I would gladly support the impeachment of every justice that voted to stop the Florida recount in 2000. Is that going to happen? Probably not.
BUSH AND COMPANY PROBABLY GOT SLICK BY WITH EVERYTHING. I WOULD GLADLY SUPPORT THE HUNT FOR ANYTHING.
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Posted by: sweetlilwookims on Dec 7, 2008 8:53 AM
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Posted by: Nodarse on Nov 28, 2008 2:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only way it could happen is if sufficient numbers of us, Democrats, Independents, and yes, Republicans too, get pissed off enough and demand it.
We don't need ballots, bullets or mass demonstrations that fizzle out after the next news cycle. We need massive civil disobedience and non-cooperation with the Federal Government. And it has to hurt.
Then, and only then, do we have chance to reclaim our Nation and our values. If not, then we deserve serfdom for ourselves, our children and every generation there after.
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» It isn't going to happen
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: like refusing to pay their credit card bills...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: like refusing to pay their credit card bills...
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: I swear to God Bush is opening a FREEDOM CENTER in Dallas!!
Posted by: AlexLawyer
» The Democrats..
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: The Democrats..
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Very Sad.
Posted by: christianslayer1955
» You missed your chance.
Posted by: Alan8
» RE: Very Sad.
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Very Sad.
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» NO DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS HAVE HAD A MAJORITY FOR 14 YEARS. THIS IS A FALSE
Posted by: Raymond Emerson
» RE: NO DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS HAVE HAD A MAJORITY FOR 14 YEARS. THIS IS A FALSE
Posted by: orwellturns
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Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 28, 2008 2:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The image of the United States planet wide is not just deplorable, but without merit. We have become bar sinister in more countries than most are aware of here and now. It is deserved we worked hard to achieve this. We stayed up nights to ensure the most heinous criminals we could conjure would be in positions of power and authority.
I do not know why we did this, only that it was done with a fervor that is ugly and shocking in a people that one time prided itself in fairness and even handed rulings. Well, that time is past, but fortunately we have a chance to relieve at least some of the terrible responsibility for these anti-social and anti-human acts. Personally I will never feel straight with my concept of God again. In my world God is love, by allowing this monster and his cronies’ reign I sold my human citizenship to a Demon of physical wealth and good material holdings.
I urge all to Read Vincent Bugliosi’s book: Prosecuting George W. Bush for murder! Some young lawyer could really make a name for himself and restore faith in this countries abilities to do good works by undertaking this work in the name of human rights and freedom pro bono. To say nothing of doing a good work for faith in spirit. Please someone out there Contact Vincent Bugliosi, and use his services to chase these monsters down.
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» HERE IS WHERE YOU CAN START!
Posted by: TarryFaster
» if that book was that much
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: if that book was that much
Posted by: Lauren
» Until there is a book about Barney Frank and Chris Dodd
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: Until there is a book about Barney Frank and Chris Dodd
Posted by: buschthebearrefreshing
» Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: 2thepoint
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Strange bed fellows!
Posted by: GatoPreto
» RE: It is the civic duty of all Americans to proceed aganst the Bush Cabinet and incumbent Senate.
Posted by: bperk
» Your first sentence creates a problem...
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: I'm tried of your tactic, blame the victim
Posted by: Lauren
» A bit of good news?
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: Sparks56 on Nov 28, 2008 2:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Add this to slavery/Jim Crow, the annihilation of native North, Central, and South American cultures, the entire Viet Nam War, and the promotion and support of various dictators.
The crimes against humanity for which America needs to atone is a long one.
Given the peresent economic situation, it is extremely unlikely that we will see any investigation, let alone prosecution, into recent American crimes against humanity. We could try by publishing ALL the Abu Graib pictures. The really ugly ones were supressed.
It will be argued, rightfully, that the publication of those pictures will only stir up more Muslim/Iraqi hatred against America. ("Let sleeping dogs lay.")
I am a pessimist
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» RE: A Long List
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: A Long List
Posted by: Sparks56
» Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Can Obama pass the acid test?
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: If Bushco isn't investigated, I will vomit the Democratic Party from my soul, say never again!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: If Bushco isn't investigated, I will vomit the Democratic Party from my soul, say never again!
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: A Long List
Posted by: patfr
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Posted by: Nightstallion on Nov 28, 2008 2:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are American, violence prone and violence bred. We love all the Gore for Glory horseshit we have been pumping for years. If there is not any real Icor going to be in the offing here none of us will go for it! Or, conversely if we do, millions will have to die before the Peaceniks will finally be all gone and the real slaughter can begin!
Do you think I over state or over simplify? Fine then start the ball rolling and see what it starts bouncing off of on its merry way to happy destiny. Some of us have been there and done that, we are un-bluffed by the Neo-Convict hard ass politicos and fluffy pink faeries flitting about the peanut butter and jelly skies of all is Security La La Land alike! You can lie to yourselves all you wish but you cannot lie to me! If we don’t put this monster centipede and his co-criminals in the hoosegow they are going to be back to do it all again just like that damn Terminator.
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» RE: So, don't get me wrong here I am all for Civil dissobedience
Posted by: hankgeorge
» RE: So, don't get me wrong here I am all for Civil dissobedience
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: So, don't get me wrong here I am all for Civil dissobedience
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: dipconsult on Nov 28, 2008 2:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I suggest it is unfair and unjust to prosecute those who carried out policy decided at the top by President G W Bush, Vice President Cheney, Mr. Rumsfeld and others, notably those who gave the legal advice.
And that it would be impolitic and difficult to go after them.
But surely there does need to be a truly independent and comprehensive enquiry - set up very soon - into what took place, at whose instigation, and why.
This need not waste government time, nor lay the new Administration open to charges of "witch hunting". And it would not involve the Justice Department investigating itself.
An obviously unbiassed and full report would
enable Congress to act to ensure future Adminstrations would not repeat the actions of the G W Bush Administration.
Domestically and internationally this would go a long way to recovering America's reputation - and impress all concerned with the way (unlike so many countries, Germany notably excepted) the US can face the truth of its past and so be able to put it behind it.
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» RE: dipconsult
Posted by: javajoe
» RE: dipconsult
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: dipconsult
Posted by: Von
» The Good German Defense doesn't work!
Posted by: marid
» RE: dipconsult: Xcuse Me!
Posted by: madmax427
Comments are closed-
Posted by: weathered on Nov 28, 2008 2:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Denial is very cruel, it blocks the association between cause and effect. Obfuscation is pernicious, it manipulates a lie and fashions it to a story and timeline.
The truth is very simple, its requires little, lies are very needy and requires lots of heavy lifting. If trust and respect were present the need for AlterNets and Truthdigs wouldn't be as great, but as long as MSM/PBS/NPR choreographs a screenplay of mis and disinformation the public suffers the one key component to relationships, trust.
A country that lies to itself, marginalizes itself. Unless we have the courage to confront our lies we'll remain as sick as our secrets.
Not seeking prosecution for the string of crimes committed in broad daylight by this administration is criminal and we'll ALL pay a terrible price.
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» RE: If revenge for 9/11
Posted by: babka
» RE: AMEN! weathered
Posted by: buzzsaw
» RE: weathered
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: weathered
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: weathered
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: weathered
Posted by: weathered
» RE: weathered
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: If revenge for 9/11
Posted by: willymack
» RE: If revenge for 9/11
Posted by: Lauren
» Why doesn't Alternet call for an investigation of 9/11?
Posted by: dustdevil
Comments are closed-
Posted by: madmax427 on Nov 28, 2008 11:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I sincerely believe in Your comments intentions, however I have one cravat: I do not believe this is a matter that needs to include "God". Common decency should be more than enough reason to take action.
At 57 years old, I do not address nor believe in, what is passed along as fact by 'organized' Religion as it is also a means of CONTROL over Men & Women: I believe it is a FARCE because MAN (or Woman) uses it to CONTROL the thoughts of Others, to Their benefit, NOT "God's". I believe this is important because You risk the support of Those who believe like Myself when You state "God" MUST be involved to rectify this and You also LOSE support from Your own base because They will believe 'praying' for Divine Intervention will be enough!
ACTION, taken by ALL Those who believe this MUST be repaired, is what is neccessary!
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Posted by: pelican beak on Nov 28, 2008 1:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OUR KING???????
Speak for yourself, Kimosabe. Many of us don't inhabit your Lala Land.
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» Here the LAW is King, instead of the King being the LAW
Posted by: editnetwork
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Posted by: christianslayer1955 on Nov 28, 2008 3:10 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: MINISTER
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: MINISTER
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: MINISTER
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: americansheep on Nov 28, 2008 4:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sirios on Nov 28, 2008 8:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: hell, the Senate gives standing ovations to 7time convicted FELONS
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: hell, the Senate gives standing ovations to 7time convicted FELONS
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Basenjis on Nov 28, 2008 9:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It does no good either to say "I told you so," though many of us could say it. Once we had choices for electing presidential candidates who were not only anti-war but who were also outspokenly pro-impeachment and they were rejected. So we are left with a man who at least, was legally elected by the people, so that's a good beginning.
Now it may be up to the people who elected him to insist on our day in court. To recover from years of Bush abuse, the country needs healing and some sense of closure to the disorienting effects of discovering the magnitude and the shame of the crimes committed by our own government and in our own names. Only with full exposure of these crimes and of the people responsible can genuine recovery take place. It may be up to us to get this across to a new and reluctant administration. It is our right as voters to demand it be done.
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» RE: CONGRESS INDICT
Posted by: rinthy
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Posted by: GatoPreto on Nov 28, 2008 3:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Obama: "I Can't do IT By Myself." Chomsky:"Changes and progress very rarely are gifts from above...
Posted by: JoAnne
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Posted by: US Citizen 07 on Nov 28, 2008 4:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's not up to our administration to right this wrong, it's up to us to make sure it is addressed.
Peoples dependancy on the government is a lot of the problem in today's world.
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» RE: Wait and See II
Posted by: christianslayer1955
» RE: Wait and See II
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: jbpaz on Nov 28, 2008 4:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Asking for a Dictator
Posted by: photon's feather
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Nov 28, 2008 4:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This ring of conspirators have not been haphazardly committing crimes, they have been putting pieces together to create a bigger picture. One Where the US is not an economic powerhouse, nor a 'Gold Standard' for other nations to try to emmulate, economically or uin regards to Rigths & Freedoms.
this Group has been Corporatizing the American Sysem of Laws. Effectively creating a caste Feudal system controlled by Logo's instead of Family Crests. They have been Trying to create the EXACT system our ancestors fled HERE.
they have undermined or Destroyed most aspects of the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. But what most fail to recognize is the Fact they have committed crimes which have undermined The Declaration of Independence. That Document was not just a Declaration of Freedom from the English Monarchy, It was a Declaration against ANY Monarchy Or dictatorship. This is why the Nixon phrase "If the Preident Does it, It's not illegal' IS at it's core ILLEGAL.Such adages are those of Kings, Not Presidents of Democracies.
Again Cheney Rummy Wolfie were all part of that adminstration and every other afterwards, and what has been proven is the continued operating policy that Presidents are above laws. This is a pattern of criminality against the MOST basic foundation of our Republic.
During an Interview Cheney was asked about his thoughts that most Americans wanted out of Iraq. His Response "So". Frankly I saw that as a Confession of Treason. If disregarding the Will of the Citizens of a Demcoracy is not Blatant Treason, Then we might as well stop calling ourselves a Democracy.the Great Experiment has failed and Now we need to figure out which form of Gov't we have been conquered by.Seems the 'Red Coats' took a while,but they have finally conquered the Colonies.
this is ONE area that I will not Compromise, That's been Done repeatedly and look what it has done to our 'Shining city'. I may hold Pres elect Obama in high regard, but failure to demand Justice for US will quickly change my mind about his morals & Ethics. This subject may be the one which turns Obama's 'community Organizing' network into his Frankenstein.
I want their Heads on Recycled Paper Plates ( the silver platters are far too good) and I am not a proponent of Capital Punishment, but in this instance, because of the extent and depth of these crimes, I want the Death penality for the Top players in this Decades long conspiracy to bring down our Free Market Democracy by Corporationists.
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» I love you Purple Girl. Let's crank these people UP!
Posted by: common intelligence
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WhatNow? on Nov 28, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where else have I heard this? Ah yeah, bush said "we don't do torture".
"Although his opposition to torture has been unequivocal in tone, Obama has been hesitant to state in solid terms what exactly he would do about the torture that already took place."
The text I've highlighted with bold letters seems to be recurring theme with obomber. If he does happen to do something to clean up this mess, I'll be surprised and very pleased but I'm not too hopeful on this one. Also I've come to wonder if closing Guantanamo is a all style with no substance. I'm getting the idea that everything will just be moved elsewhere with little change on policy. Come on Obama I want to see you prove one of your naysayers wrong!
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» RE: lip service?
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: georgiaorwell
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: pelican beak
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: speak of the devil
Posted by: GatoPreto
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 2thepoint on Nov 28, 2008 4:57 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're kidding. I agree this is usually the realm of the CIA but this is light weight stuff..compare this to what Vietnam vets were subjected to or many other countries do this isn't torture. Harassment yes..torture no! Our CIA, Russia's KGb etc..etc do alot worse!
Should we be doing this? If it was to get info we felt was vital, yes, if it was just to play with their heads and for "enjoyment"..no..
I've encountered worse riding the NYC subway system!
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» Then volunteer
Posted by: EinMD
» Just another good German!
Posted by: marid
» RE: Kid stuff! Want to volunteer...
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: Kid stuff? Wonder how well you'd fare being waterboarded or sodomized or beaten?
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Torture is illegal, no matter who does it.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Kid stuff!
Posted by: Malamute
» RE: Kid stuff!
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Kid stuff!
Posted by: rinthy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MyLeftFoot on Nov 28, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Vote w/your Wallet
Posted by: weathered
» RE: What if...
Posted by: Revolutionary (Direct) Democracy
» RE: What if...
Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: What if...
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: What if...
Posted by: willymack
» RE: What if...
Posted by: weathered
» RE: What if...
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
Comments are closed-
Posted by: babka on Nov 28, 2008 6:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and long have liked to crucify.
You never asked the elder Bush
if he had made poor Barbara cry.
In this man's world a starlet will
advance the only way she knows.
"The heart has reasons" - friends of Bill.
"He can't do wrong right!" - from his foes.
Old jocks cry, "Let's go all the way!
Launch bombs! No blow jobs! Off the Chief"
Long years of slo-mo genocide
and now, big guns! Sweet Christ! Good grief!
This coup is rotten to the core
in spite of what the law has found;
the sex distracts us from the war
and not the other way around.
It's use or lose our armaments.
The world implodes in mad events,
just pausing long enough to back
a Final Solution for Iraq.
========================
rhetorical questions
1. why is Bush untouchable?
2. why were the Nazis put on trial for crimes against humanity?
3. Is protest "old-hat"? Have we already "done" impeachment over a folly, so we don't want to repeat ourselves over war profiteering and genocide rooted in contempt for the "Other"?
4. Will an "Otherly" President do the right thing?
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Posted by: javajoe on Nov 28, 2008 6:18 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama=Good Cop Bush:Bad Cop ?
Republicratic Party ?
Same Old Stuff ?
Tweedldum and Tweedledee ?
New Boss, Same As The Old Boss ?
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 28, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 28, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: being an ass
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: being an ass - I don't defend him
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: I don't defend him. Oh, yes you do.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I don't defend him. Oh, yes you do.
Posted by: rinthy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: thinkverybig on Nov 28, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't obey the law!
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» RE: Send BUSH to Jail!
Posted by: rideyourbike11
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Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals on Nov 28, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Anything can be rationalized
Posted by: marid
» RE: First of all, learn to spell, and while you are at
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: First of all, learn to spell, and while you are at
Posted by: Quannah
» Untill Barney Frank and Chris Dodd
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: You guys won, what more do you want!
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: You guys won, what more do you want!
Posted by: Quannah
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Carol Burns on Nov 28, 2008 7:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: They WILL BE IMPEACHED AND PROSECUTED
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Crimes We Know About Are Probably Just the Tip of the Iceberg
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lauren on Nov 28, 2008 9:18 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why don't you give us your qualifications to make this grand claim.
My qualifications to say they will be caught and punished is that I am their well documented victim and I expect to actually see my own justice carried out. I have lots of friends.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 28, 2008 11:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sirios on Nov 28, 2008 8:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: sirios
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: Seriously, Who the Fuck
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
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Posted by: wagnerrocks@gmail.com on Nov 28, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kellysgarden on Nov 28, 2008 8:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The evidence of this is scientifically proven by the evidence of thermite in the dust samples. The laws of physics also disprove a free-fall rate of speed for the three WTC towers.
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» What about Fannie/Fred?
Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
» RE: Simplest way to prosecute is to reopen 9/11 commission
Posted by: buzzsaw
» May I suggest you do a bit more research? Start at ae911truth.org
Posted by: LeftWright
» Please Remove Head...
Posted by: schiffer
» RE: Simplest way to prosecute is to reopen 9/11 commission
Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: Simplest way to prosecute is to reopen 9/11 commission
Posted by: weathered
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kathy-B on Nov 28, 2008 8:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, if it doesn't happen, what will really make me mad is that we get to support these criminals for the rest of their lives.
Very sad.
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Posted by: wolfgangpmay on Nov 28, 2008 8:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Look us up un the web!
Wolfgang P. May
Advisory Team Leader
in the "Iron Triangle"
Republic of Vietnam
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» RE: link
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: link
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: link
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Archie1954 on Nov 28, 2008 10:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Criminal acts
Posted by: rinthy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jmmartin on Nov 28, 2008 10:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Naturally, at the very least, everyone in the room when Condoleeza assigned types of torture to categories of detainee, is culpable, not to forget Rummy and, perhaps, the neo-con crowd, all of whom exited the cabinet once they saw the Iraqi War was a fiasco. I'm talking Frum types, Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, Richard Perle, the Ugliest Americans of them all.
But the benefit of such an airing of grievances and full examination of the problem from a non-partisan POV outweighs the political fallout from Kucinich style show trials. We ask them to apologize. If they don't, at least they've been exposed to scrutiny and will live as quasi-pariahs the rest of their days.
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» RE: Many Approaches
Posted by: javajoe
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Posted by: monkeywrench on Nov 28, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"As Ratner recently wrote on his blog, 'If laws can be broken with impunity today, they can and will be broken with impunity tomorrow. Not just laws against torture and war crimes, but any and all laws; any and all limits on government.' "
A perfect example of this was the preemptive pardoning of Richard Nixon by Gerald Ford "for the good of the nation." This has led directly to the abuses and excesses, and shredding of our Constitution, by the Bush neocons. No punishment, no deterrence.
We find ourselves at a similar crossroads now, but with an important difference: the criminality of the Bush administration is far, far worse than was Nixon's (and from some of the same characters who surrounded Nixon), and is not by any estimate limited to the abuses of detainees. In fact, if the sum total of Bush administration criminality were ever published in one place, it would beggar the imagination. The article spotlights detainee abuses, as other articles have spotlighted other abuses by Bush, precisely because adding them all up is just too taxing to calculate, too widespread to be believable.
But believe them we must.
If we do not establish once again that we are a nation of LAWS, not men, and if we do not commit to Bush's cabal the ONLY thing criminals understand – harsh punishment – then abuse by our own government will, undoubtedly, happen again and most likely be even worse yet. The next time, we may be closer to Nazi-style fascism than any of us can envision if we do not act now.
Let's act preemptively, and start our own "Nuremberg Trials" today.
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» RE: Ah... Nixon!
Posted by: Quannah
» how about
Posted by: babka
» RE: Are we heading for a new beginning or a Third Reich future?
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: never again
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ringo on Nov 28, 2008 10:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are major questions outstanding regarding Bush & the administrations culpability, substance, competence etc.. “W” has left the USA in distressing need of at minimum a major image make-over. There are no clear answers to our problems, however the US needs to win back confidence by bucking up and displaying leadership.
First stop the money-corruption cycle, do away with political-influence money and lobbyists by funding our election campaigns exclusively from the US tax dollar with equal amounts of money to support the top five candidates. Vote with your ballot for if you vote with the dollar big money is winning now and will win every time.
Second request independent unimpeded UN and/or World Court investigation(s) of bush II & staff. If requested turn any or all over to a Word Court for further war crimes investigation and any suggested penalty. The proceedings should be held in a Nuremberg form court of law with goals to find out and daylight what bushII and the Texas Taliban have done to our rights & liberties as well as addressing war crimes and/or treasonous acts carried out by leadership.
Third turn all 02-04 election records over to an independent UN committee for investigation and possible corrective and/or punitive measures.
Fourth request the UN provide unrestricted oversight of our future presidential elections.
Fifth validate the treaties so rashly nullified post 9/11. Void the legal opinion from former Justice Department official John Yoo asserting that Bush possessed unlimited authority as Commander in Chief, including the power to have military interrogators abuse terror suspects.
Sixth Repeal the Patriot act, FISA laws, Military Commissions Act of 2006 and The Protect America Act, John Warner National Defense Authorization Act, Roll all our rights and liberties back (or should I say forward) to the pre-drug war days and reinstitute laws only if they pass stringent (read Libertarian) Constitutional tests.
Seven Israel/Palestine have squandered our credibility, money and efforts over a ~60 year span and still unable to settle their differences. Give 90 days notice, wash our hands of all responsibilities, pull out and let the chips fall where they may.
Eight restore the possibility of a third party (real choice) winning an election. See number one.
Nine punish the politicos for corruption not the usual symbolic slap on the hand we now accept as justice for our elected officials. Twenty years without possibility of parole is justified for selling out our country and nation.
Ten rigorously enforce the separation of church and state mandate.
Eleven. Our justice system is too important a component of the US balance of powers to play fast and loose. Investigate the bush II prosecutor dismissals and the Roberts/ Alito Supreme Court appointments if any impropriety's are evident replace the appointments in question with new candidates. The Bush administration & DOJ are not cooperating with investigations. Key administration players are refusing to testify and the Attorney General has memory problems.
Twelve. As long as we are digging up bones we need to look at all the bones. To maintain our own internal balance we need to expend some effort in answering US historical questions not satisfied or glossed over by government responses. Determine the extent of credibility of but not limited to: Eisenhower’s Military-Industrial Complex warning, the warren Commission report, Iran-Contra, Jackson & Kent State, PNAC, Danforth Report, The Nixon, Hoover and Joe McCarthy activities, MK-ultra, The Cold War, 9/11, FISA court, flight 800, and our records classification process.
Last The Department of Defense is a distancing euphemism; restore its original name 'The War Department'.
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» RE: The Post-bush recovery period
Posted by: ranger1
» Please add the Oklahoma City bombing to your number twelve
Posted by: LeftWright
» RE: The Post-bush recovery period JOIN NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cherylholmes on Nov 28, 2008 10:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why do you think they're attacking the Americans and British in Bombay? Why do you think they are asking to see passports? Because they love us? Hell no, you'll see a lot more attacks on the Americans and British everywhere. This is only the beginning. We're scum of the earth and we will pay for it!
Politicians are all part of it too, and so are we because we elected them and allowed them to torture and kill innocent people. We allow them to invade soverign countires and kill millions. No one will prosecute them so we ALL pay. Our silente compliance means we approve of everything they do making all of us guilty.
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» RE: Getting Offed
Posted by: americansheep
» RE: Getting Offed
Posted by: Quannah
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Annapurna1 on Nov 28, 2008 11:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but one truth that obama spoke during the campaing is that power will not concede without a fight...and LION..it is incumbent on we the ppl to fight that fight if we are to hold obama to his word....
the good news..however..is that the boumediene decision from the SCOTUS could facilitate prosecutions of future war crimes...
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Posted by: aonghus36 on Nov 28, 2008 11:11 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A pardon would take care of those costly distractions.
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» RE: I think they are NOT already pardoned.
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Caesar77 on Nov 28, 2008 12:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are not better than the Nazis, if we let this little bastard, and his follow thugs, off the hook.
I mean, are we stupid.?
Obama and Palosi are complicit in murder/war crimes and human rights abuses, if they don't act, for the good of humanity by seeking retribution.
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» Right on, Caesar77
Posted by: harryf200
» Nancy Pelosi...morals...LOL!!!
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Caesar77
Posted by: Von
» RE: Caesar77 join NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
Comments are closed-
Posted by: redroadtraveler on Nov 28, 2008 12:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I confronted my prosecutor with the fact that he committed perjury and obstruction of justice in order to "win" his case, he simply sneered at me, laughed in my face, and said "WE don't have to FOLLOW the law, we ARE the law."
The Bush escapades of the last eight years are simply a continuation and further extension of what REALLY goes on in America.
It all comes under the heading of people not believing it until it happens to them ... and by then it's too late.
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» RE: The Justice Department?
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: The Justice Department? join NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
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Posted by: Quannah on Nov 28, 2008 1:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They had their chance to do something. As we all watched, we saw they chose to do nothing. And that choice was not made to protect Bush, but to cover their own asses.
I expect nothing will be done. I say don't bother with any "Special Commission" which will have no teeth in it, nor will any crimes be prosecuted once discovered. (They admitted they have tortured at least three times!) That would be an even bigger slap in the face to those of us who seek justice for these criminals.
This is disgusting on so many levels.
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» RE: The Fact of the Matter is the majority of those in the Legislative Branch...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Fact of the Matter is the majority of those in the Legislative Branch...
Posted by: Darwin26
» RE: The Fact of the Matter is the majority of those in the Legislative Branch...
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: harryf200 on Nov 28, 2008 1:53 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Greenhouse Neutral Foundation on Nov 28, 2008 2:51 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bob Williamson
www.strategicbookpublishing.com/ZEROGreenhouseEmissions.html
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» RE: Far to many pressing problems on Obama's hands
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: And if Obama doesn't see Bush is charged, he will share the blame
Posted by: americansheep
» RE: Far to many pressing problems on Obama's hands
Posted by: Darwin26
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Posted by: choirboy on Nov 28, 2008 7:07 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Quannah
» I mostly agree, but . . .
Posted by: dustdevil
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: lenox
» RE: Puhleeeeeze
Posted by: Von
» Arrest Silverstein/Bushcon for 9/11
Posted by: weathered
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Nov 28, 2008 7:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bill Clinton's administration invented "extraordinary rendition," more prosaically known as kidnapping, forced disappearance, conspiracy to violate human rights and torture by proxy.
Any investigation, and subsequent prosecutions, cannot rely on a de facto statute of limitations for offenses prior to 20 January 2001, so Obama will scuttle the whole concepts of rule of law, accountability and respect for human rights. While he might halt the outrages, he will neither regain the respect of the world and the tolerance of our potential enemies by prosecuting the guilty, nor deter future wrongdoing.
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» RE: Obama's First Priority: Protecting Clinton & Co.
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Obama's First Priority: Protecting Clinton & Co. join NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
» RE: Obama's First Priority: Protecting Clinton & Co.
Posted by: Darwin26
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Posted by: AlwaysAskWhy on Nov 28, 2008 8:57 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any knowledgeable, intelligent human being... every federal official, particularly the next president, KNOWS THESE ARE WAR CRIMES, CRIMES AGAINST THE STATE, CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!!! IMPEACHABLE, PROSECUTABLE CRIMES..PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
WE ARE A NATION OF LAWS...AND THE LAW HAS BEEN BROKEN...OVER AND OVER...ARROGANTLY AND WANTONLY. These crimes are the REASON the American People were DETERMINED to elect Obama...the hope that Bush and Cheney will be prosecuted!!! It is OUTRAGEOUS to think that Obama will tiptoe around it... FOR ANY REASON. NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT AT THIS MOMENT THAN TO SEE THESE MASS MURDERERS, THESE RAIDERS AND RAPERS OF THIS NATION AND THE WORLD, BEHIND BARS!! ANY LESS IS NOT ONLY A SLAP IN THE FACE OF ALL AMERICANS, BUT A CLUB OVER OUR HEADS! IT MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH TO THINK THAT OBAMA WILL PROTECT AND DEFEND BUSH AND CHENEY!!!!! MY GOD!!!!
JESUS H. CHRIST!!! GEORGE W. BUSH, RICHARD CHENEY, CONDOLEEZA RICE, DONALD RUMSFELD, RICHARD MEYERS HAVE MURDERED OVER ONE MILLION HUMAN BEINGS!!!! MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!! AND DESTROYED NOT JUST ONE NATION, IRAQ, BUT AFGHANISTAN, AND DESTROYED THE UNITED STATES AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ECONOMICALLY!!!!
BUSH AND CHENEY (Rice, Rove, Ashcroft, Gonzalez, Libby, Pearle, Wolfowitz, Meyers, Rumsfeld) should ALL BE TRIED, CONVICTED AND SPEND THE REST OF THEIR LIVES IN PRISON... NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTTS.
If Barack Obama minces words, parses descriptions and legalities on these crimes.. trying to avoid accountability for the most despicable, destructive, violent, insane administration in the history of this nation.. then those Americans who elected him should be rioting in the streets... because surely WE ARE THEN A TRULY FASCIST NATION... WITH ALL THE DANGERS, DEATH, DESTRUCTION AND POVERTY/ STARVATION THAT WILL GO WITH IT. If Obama DOES NOT PROSECUTE, then HE SHOULD ALSO BE HELD, LIKE PELOSI, GUILTY OF COMPLICITY, GUILTY OF HARBORING CRIMINALS...GUILTY OF VIOLATING HIS OATH OF OFFICE, GUILTY OF TREASON AND WAR CRIMES!! THE BLOOD OF BLOWN UP BABIES IS DRIPPING THROUGH THEIR HANDS, TOO.
IF OBAMA IS TOO MUCH A COWARD TO PROSECUTE THESE SOCIOPATHS, THEN WE, AS A NATION, ARE COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY SCREWED. DEMOCRACY IS DEAD. THERE IS NOTHING LEFT IN OUR FUTURE, BUT POSSIBLY MASS VIOLENCE TO RECLAIM OUR NATION.
IS THAT WHAT OBAMA AND "HIS" MINIONS (LIKE CLINTON) WANT? REALLY?????
WILL WE EVER BE ABLE TO WAKE UP FROM THIS NIGHTMARE???
IMPEACHMENT AND PROSECUTION SAYS TO THE WORLD, "WE'RE SORRY!" PROBABLY THE ONLY APOLOGY THE WORLD WILL ACCEPT FROM THIS NATION OF SELF-INVOLVED, INDIFFERENT CITIZENS.
ARREST BUSH AND CHENEY (ET AL) NOW!!
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» RE: NOTHING SHORT OF LIFE IN PRISON FOR BUSH, CHENEY, ET AL!
Posted by: Darwin26
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Posted by: Jeanne on Nov 28, 2008 9:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: At the very least join NIN
Posted by: Darwin26
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Posted by: MausMasher54 on Nov 28, 2008 9:41 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: No Criminal Charges, but Civil Charges,
Posted by: AlexLawyer
» RE: Criminal Charges, Civil Charges,
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 28, 2008 10:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've been trying to amp you Alterneters for over 7 years.
SO many of us writing point hitting directly on nailing the whole administration for impeachment, 911, depleated uraniuam, Phosperous bombs, spying, braking constitutional law, ..my god YOu don't have enough evidence.? The congress has even said we do . But nothing is happening because you all are not hammering your reps for one and flooding the population, coffee shops.
The target is unity! '......Say what?
COngressmen (WOmen) are saying, "they don't want to push Impeachment because they believe it will do more to divide the country and right now we need to 'unity' " That's BULL SHIT.
Fact is they don't give-a-shit what we say. They aren't listening and are literally ignoring the real face of public demands and voices. The reason being , "they have their own agenda.
With people as Nancy Pelosi and Diane Feinstein agreeing but caving saying "it would only further divide US" we need to HAMMER divison if they don't impeach.
THIS IS THAT TARGET.
They have given us the go ahead but it's up to us to recognize the position we must take and PUSH PUSH PUSH.
YOU people are too frigging comfortable.
You have to get mad as hell stick you dead heads out the window and scream at the top of you lungs, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gong to take it any longer".
Dennis Kucinich laid out a road map, Congressman Wexlar is riding point on Impeachment but you all voted for OBAMA!
What'd you think he was the holy grail?
We've got the tools to make this group of treasonous, pirates in jail.
The whole world knows it the congress knows it. The nation knows it.
STop letting the MSM railroad our country down the toilet.
This is the "school of rock". You people have no faith in yourselves. And unless we get every single peoson we know to sign , patitions, march on the nation, identify the BUSH attorneies, the whole leacherous banking sytem , Federal reserve coup d'tate' The pentagon, The CIA.
John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther KIng gave their lives for truth and true democracy. Jefferson, Eisenhower warned the people.
On and on. now hundreds of scholars, economists engineers, architects, social scientists, the very educated of this country know the truth.
Don't let "them" discount our education. We've had over eight years of learning what the fuck is going down. That's equivalent of a doctorate degree.
The US can only be united in true democracy with accountabiliity.
Don't give up, never give up. be relentless, enduring, like John Henry's hammer. Never stop pounding at the bastards.
Right now the media is distrating the nation with dramatic event happening around the world. Mean while we get mesmerized and loose track of our job right here.
DON"T LOOSE TRACK AND BE DISTRACTED. The BATTLE IS HERE>
NEVER FORGET IT, NEVER LET THE MEDIA GET YOU OFF BALANCE.
Don't let them weaken our strength just because you can't pay you rent , your mortgage etc.
Every single day write , scream, talk it up. This is our country no matter what.
Don't feel disempowered.
Do be self empowered
Dress for success over the system, the Bush Head, the cronies,
Don't let yourselves be overshadowed by deceat and lies and wars around the world. We are warriors here on the home front.
Pessimism is not acceptable. We don't need any more proof. We have all the proof.
We all know the truth. Come On. Crank up the amp !
NOW get out there and give'm hell like Harry Reid never though of.
Slam Nancy Pelosi,
Slam Diane Feinstein.
Slam all the bastards.
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» RE: IS everyone just now waking Up? Or still dragging your asses?
Posted by: Darwin26
» RE: IS everyone just now waking Up? Or still dragging your asses?
Posted by: Quannah
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Posted by: willymack on Nov 28, 2008 10:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 28, 2008 10:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
IS everyone just now waking Up? Or still dragging your asses?
Tere are so many criminal charges that can be made and as some in the system have said you quoted :"People say that prosecuting torture is 'looking backward,' " says Ratner, as I have said "but in my view, prosecutions are looking forward -- looking forward so that this doesn't happen again."
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Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 28, 2008 11:08 PM
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Has anyone ever wondered why Kenneth Staar, prosecuting attorney with a vengence on Clinton has not been heard from in regard to the idea that he was in collusion with the NeoCon PNAC machine?
Why has this never been given any thought to? There has to be some sculldugery in the pit of that story that warrents investigation and in my opinion prosicution for extortion. DO you think Bill Knowthe story? and won't tell?
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» RE: One curious question......
Posted by: MausMasher54
» RE: One curious question......
Posted by: Darwin26
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Posted by: vot on Nov 28, 2008 11:41 PM
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Posted by: Von on Nov 29, 2008 12:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If anybody gives a care, go to arabwomanblues.blogspot.com and atleast read two posts. One is entitled HOME SWEET HOME and the other is BRAINDEAD
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Posted by: grahamhgreen on Nov 29, 2008 12:06 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Torturer Movie
|
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Posted by: robchapman on Nov 29, 2008 6:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is vitally important that the Obama Administration reform our policies regarding hard interrogation.
All of the different aspects of the questions surrounding interrogation and torture must be considered at once. We must make a clear and meaningful stand and forbid torture. We must also provide for robust interrogation techniques that will elicit needed information regarding troop movements or terrorist plans.
We cannot continue this conversation as an either or proposition, both the civil liberties and the security aspects of interrogation and detention must be weighed and appropriate policies set in place.
Demagogic pictures and prose such as Ms. Segura's only inflame passions and make it harder to devise real world solutions for real world problems.
Robert Chapman
Lansing, NY
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» RE: No Witch Hunt
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: amacd on Nov 29, 2008 3:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, we can only say this with a clear conscious, and defend our moral compasses, if we have made every effort to circumvent the 'Vichy' government, resisted the 'Vichy' media's lies and deceptions, and have fully engaged, as our fore fathers did, in battling this guileful political economic empire within our own country and have given our last full measure of democratic blood in openly revolting against this murderous Empire that is speaking and acting against our interests but falsely in our name.
The redemption of the American people can only come before, and not after, this murderous ruling-elite fascist Empire have shot themselves and burned their bodies in a bunker awaiting an external corrective force.
As the old Fram oil-filter TV ad used say, "You can pay me now, or pay me later."
Will Americans allow themselves to be held complicit in the destruction of our world community?
Certainly, an American Constitutional lawyer and scholar should consider that solemnly.
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» RE: We're not responsible --- if we revolt
Posted by: Darwin26
» RE: We're not responsible to understand what really has to be done if we don't want to.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 29, 2008 8:21 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They whole the throttle of this run-away train in their hands. We're all in the baggage car.
UNless the powers that control the MIC support the people and exposing the truth we haven't got a friggin icecubes chance in hell.
I'm getting stressed too much to worry for an out come that can't happen unless you people take up retalitory efforts to actually organize a mass of the population to control your representatives and senators.
Making them bring the issues up front and center.
Marx was right. "The only way to change the system is by a violent revolution or a slow metmorphosis". The slow way benefits no one alive. Times not on our side.
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Posted by: hilly7 on Nov 29, 2008 10:28 PM
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Posted by: Darwin26 on Nov 29, 2008 10:32 PM
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I'm sick of these apologists - they had no problem sending me off to die in Viet Nam but ask the Chumps like Conyers and to own up to Article II Section 4 of the Constitution is falling on deaf ears.
Thanks Scott for your article and Rattners article but we need ppl to fax and push the HJC to get Impeachment on the table.
See National Impeachment Network NIN@impeachforpeace.org >>> we are amassing another push during the lame duck session.
PS i read some guys pitch and the Jesus Almighty stuff really just creeps me out.
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Posted by: Von on Nov 29, 2008 10:34 PM
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Posted by: ImpeachmentDiane on Nov 30, 2008 3:25 AM
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Posted by: Longdream on Nov 30, 2008 6:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I think of this country's "nature", I think of its people. And I think we've just proven that, after having a shitty taste of the war brew we've been given, everyone except the most mindless of us was eager to spit it out.
I don't think anyone here wouldn't like to see the people who did the shimmy and shake to rape us all get their hard comeuppance. But a realist will understand that there is a matter of priorities, now.
What do we need first? Cheney on the block, or health insurance that takes care of everyone? Bush made to eat shit, or new jobs?
I'm not trying to make false juxtapositions, but I am saying that sometimes, in an emergency environment, it's not possible to do every single thing we'd like to do. And we don't even know if the steps the new administration is planning will be able to keep our economy from collapsing. The truth is that NO ONE KNOWS.
I don't think that the reluctance to prioritize prosecution and punishment for the previous administration means that the transitional government has no commitment to justice. That's a highly prejudicial way to put the problem.
My attention is focused on the economy, the plight of the old poor and the new poor, foreign policy in our relationships with Israel vis a vis Muslim and Arab countries, the possibilities of intractable war if we don't handle said relationships brilliantly, the development of new technologies that will save our environment...fifty other priorities before I need to see the country's attention and resources arrested by Bush and Cheney for any more years.
Yes, I'd LOVE to see them broke and embarrassed. But not as much as I want to see people taken care of, and our country regain its footing in the world, and I'm not naive enough to think that we can do it all.
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Posted by: SEDGFLD on Nov 30, 2008 8:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Challenging Americans
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: pana on Nov 30, 2008 4:06 PM
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Posted by: Sheldonjohns on Nov 30, 2008 6:25 PM
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My family has suffered severely over the last 35 years from the hands of shadow predators masquerading as Psychiatrists, Physicians, Social workers, Teachers, Government officials and a host of other Professions in order to enact fear and paranoia in their savage campaign to gain control of my family’s mind and behavior thru their State sponsored unethical Human Research Programs.
It is a conspiracy that is so monstrous that no one would want to believe it actually happened. These Individuals operates with total Impunity with Gestapo like powers and they hide within our Government’s Administrations throughout this Country.
Thru prayer and countless research I discovered what I believe to be the truth of what has happened to my family. Base on uncanny similarities of victims of a secret Government program, Congressional Records and testimonials that can be substantiated through the Freedom of Information Act, I believe that my family has been targeted for Human Research thru an elaborate unethical program that changes its name often called MKULTRA.
It all started in the latter part of the 60’s when the Drew daycare facility that cared for my oldest sibling Ward Johnson, convinced my mother to enroll him into Dr. Margaret Lawrence of Harlem Hospital program for kids with special needs simply because he wouldn’t play with other kids – which they claimed.
A host of social workers and Dr. Lawrence eventually convinced my mother to enroll him into a special boarding school call Childville to correct his “problem” of playing by himself because they inform her that the board of education would not accept kids that are considered anti-social.
She was instructed to hold him out of school at the age of 6 and that they will provide her with a special school that would accept him and correct his “problem” of not wanting to play with other children.
In the summer of 1970 after Ward turn 7 years old he entered into Childville, a division of the Jewish child care association of New York City - Our lives has never been the same ever since his admission into that dreadful institution. It was there she found out that Ward was a prodigious savant who had incredible abilities... A fact that Dr. Lawrence hidden from her.
Shortly after his enrollment into Childville, Ward started to exhibit severe personality changes that alarmed my mother that made her wanting to remove him from their so call “boarding school.” - It was then that the staff of Childville informed my mother that my brother no longer belong to her because she signed away her parental rights to BCW, when she enrolled him into their program and that he now belong to the New York State Foster Care System.
My mother tried to get help as she fought valiantly for her son but the rogue elements within our Government flexed their muscle and utilized every agency imaginable in the City of New York to strip away her rights as they participated in this covert unethical experimentation of my brother.
My family has been terrorized and abused by these demented officials and physicians who all swore an oath to uphold the law and to protect and serve and preserve a human life.
Suddenly problems started to occur within our household as we became victims of repeated break-ins, vicious rumors and sabotage of reputation.
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Posted by: Sheldonjohns on Nov 30, 2008 6:26 PM
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My mother was arrested after she “rescued” Ward from Childville by refusing to return him after a weekend visit - My brother’s and I was place into the custody of BCW because of the fact that she refuse to allow Childville to retain the parental rights to my brother Ward.
My brother’s and I were injected with some type of medication while in the custody of BCW after my mother's arrest in april of 1974. After that we all were diagnose with different types of physiological problems. My white blood cells became very low, Trevis started developing problems with his left eye (white mass bumps) and swelling in his left breast and Sean lost all the hair over his entire body.
Shortly afterwards, our problems escalated within our household as the vandalism intensified and we became the victim of gang stalking, rumors, harassment by housing employees and even betrayal by close friends and family members.
My mother has now become a target of psychological warfare from the conspirators as they focus their attention upon her to keep her quiet and occupied with problems.
Numerous attempts of witchcraft have been used to keep her psychological captive and manageable for their sadistic plot they had in store for her and her family. The harassment grew more bizarre and severe every time she reached out for help from the proper authorities.
She later found salvation in her newfound faith in Jehovah God, and was able to function with some sense of normalcy despite the many persecutions she experienced daily in everyday life. She had to endure further heartache when the conspirators turn their attention on her youngest son Sean whom they damaged severely with their behavioral modification program.
Trevis was severely damage by these predators as he was drugged thru the board of education, Children Services and when they rail-road him into prison - Where they expose him to untold persecutions and mind – altering Drugs. All this was done covertly without the consent of my mother.
I became “alienated” from my family because of the escalating trouble that we was having in our household and I began to rebel against my mother which force me into foster care at the tender age of 16. Once there they work feverishly to get me on mood- stabilizing medication and even threaten to withhold my allowance if I refuse to comply with their pharmaceutical regiment that they had laid out for me.
I refused to take the medication and went on to graduated with honors and started working in the construction business at the age of 18 after I finish school. I now realize that God preserved me for a purpose when he allowed me to be place into foster care and protected me from the human research predators – much like he allowed Joseph to be sold into Egypt and use him to protect his family and his people in a time of distress. Satan had Joseph brothers sell him into slavery for wickedness but God allowed it to happen for righteousness, because he had a purpose for Joseph.
My mother life seems to always be “troubled” and “busy” as she fought for the rights for her family. She didn’t even have the time to look into the huge amount of heir’s property that her late cousin (Wavy Lackey) promised her in Covington, Georgia which ended up in the hands of a powerful southern attorney by the name of Pat Campbell and an illegitimate relative name Lester Lackey.
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Posted by: Sheldonjohns on Nov 30, 2008 6:27 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or was she just a victim of double jeopardy as she and my brother’s continue to be victimized and terrorized by numerous governmental agencies? Her problems took a turn for the worse when they turn their attention to my niece Geneva Johnson who was "legally" kidnap by family court Supervising Judge Susan K. Knipps and Children Services (ACS).
The Predators decided to go after my mother and try to give her a psych history in order to discredit her. They used my niece Geneva as a ransom to try to get my mother psychologically evaluated. They endangered the welfare of my niece and exposed her to untold horrors that any child shouldn’t have to endure. These individuals would go to any extremities to prove a point that doesn’t exist.
My brother Trevis started disclosing facts about what happened to him and wanted to take civil action against his predators. They found ways to make his case disappear and out-dated as they forced him into a residential home (Pilby) and continued their illegal experiments on him until the day that he died.
Was my brother murdered to keep him from talking about the years of ritual abuse and force medication that was done to him by rogue physicians operating with total impunity from someone within our Government?
Why did the Hospitals, NYPD, Paramedics, Social Workers and the Medical Examiners office demonstrate gross-negligence and deceit, leading up to the unusual events of my brother’s death?
Was this part of their “final solution” to rid themselves of members of my family… and if so, who’s next?
Who in our Government is allowing these Hitler like atrocities to take place on unsuspecting American Citizens violating every Human, Civil and Constitutional law of God and Man?
This is domestic terrorism of the worst kind and this is why this story must be made public and the guilty must stand trial for their crimes.
My family and countless others that the Government deems to be expendable may be the beginning of what some rogue officials have in store for America's future. Please don’t forget that this is still a government for the people and by the people. We must all work together to bring this story to the light to rid ourselves of this social cancer - Because today it’s my family that is suffering and tomorrow it may be yours. Please help spread the word by forwarding and signing the Petition below to end ALL Illegal Human Research Programs In America!
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/293806954
Contact info: Sheldon Johnson 570-424-9432the_realdealoneal@yahoo.com
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» RE: The old "Lone Nut" Conspiracy Theory Classic...
Posted by: joeocho88
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Posted by: joeocho88 on Dec 1, 2008 6:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In those days,Women could not vote. African Americans could not vote, even the FREE BLACKS were harassed, and the Native Americans were being genocided off of land that was rightfully theirs.
THIS WAS GOVERNMENT FOR THE ARISTOCRACY,BY THE ARISTOCRACY and ALL BENEFITS ACCRUING TO THE ARISTOCRACY.
It was NEVER meant as a DEMOCRACY!
It took a LOT of ARM TWISTING and who knows WHAT to get a BILL OF RIGHTS that applied to ALL of us!
THIS WAS A FEUDAL SOCIETY BASED ON AGRICULTURE!
The descendants of these wealthy ARISTOCRATS and those who were devious enough to obtain the wealth to join them in their rarefied circles of power and influence CONTINUE to run this country.
No matter WHAT SUPERFICIAL LABEL they put on the outside, they have ALWAYS stuck together to maintain their power and influence and they always will.
Before you start praising Mr. Obama as being The MESSIAH or DIFFERENT from the usual, I suggest you run the genealogy and THEN tell me how DIFFERENT he really is.
I think he will be better than the open cesspools of corruption we have had but that won't take much...
WE ALL hope that he will do the right thing by us ORDINARY AMERICAN CITIZENS who are NOT in the ELITE RULING CLASS from the Northeastern region centers of power and influence.
WE ARE THE WORKER BEES FROM WHENCE THE TAX REVENUES THAT SUPPORT THESE POLITICAL SCHEMES COME AND IF WE DON'T HAVE JOBS, THEY DON"T HAVE REVENUE.
I guess they are so out of touch they FORGOT that one fact of life.
And angry, hungry people who do not have jobs might have the time to come together and realize what has happened and figure out a SOLUTION! It ALMOST happened in the 1930s but any World War that would presume to bail us out of our present economic malaise would destroy the planet...
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Posted by: Chairman Matt on Dec 3, 2008 3:30 AM
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Posted by: cori on Dec 3, 2008 5:56 PM
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Posted by: afrothetics2 on Dec 3, 2008 6:54 PM
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