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"Justifiable Homicides" Are on the Rise: Have Self-Defense Laws Gone Too Far?
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One year ago today, a 61-year old Texan named Joe Horn looked out his window in Pasadena, just outside of Houston, and saw a pair of black men on his neighbor's property. It appeared to be a burglary in action, so he called 911. But as he described what he saw to the emergency dispatcher, he began to get agitated. The police would take too long to get there, he decided. Instead, he'd stop the crime himself.
"I've got a shotgun," Horn told the 911 dispatcher. "You want me to stop him?"
The dispatcher tried to talk him down. "Nope, don't do that," he told Horn. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"
It was not OK with Horn. With the dispatcher still on the phone, he grabbed his gun, went outside, yelled, "Move, you're dead!" -- and shot the two men in the back.
The victims turned out to be two undocumented immigrants from Colombia, Diego Ortiz and Miguel de Jesus. Both died on the scene.
The killings sparked instant controversy nationwide, with some labeling it a deplorable act of vigilante justice, and others calling Horn a hero for defending his neighbor's property. Because the victims were in the country illegally, the controversy was further fueled by the ugly, ongoing fight over immigration. Protesters who arrived on Horn's block to call for justice for his victims were met with counterprotesters waving signs in support of their neighbor. "Once again, our chaotic immigration system has led to death," Bill O'Reilly fumed on Dec. 6, 2007.
This summer, Horn was officially cleared of wrongdoing, when a grand jury failed to indict him on any charges. The decision was met with dismay by the families of Ortiz and de Jesus. Diamond Morgan, Ortiz's widow, will now raise their infant son without him. "It's horrible," she said about the 911 recording. "(Horn) was so eager, so eager to shoot." "This man took the law into his own hands," Stephanie Storey, de Jesus' fiancee, told reporters. "He shot two individuals in the back after having been told over and over to stay inside. It was his choice to go outside and his choice to take two lives."
But Horn and his attorney claimed that in addition to protecting his neighbor's home, he was acting in self-defense. "He was afraid for his life," his lawyer, Tom Lambright argued. " … I don't think Joe had time to make a conscious decision. I think he only had time to react to what was going on. Short answer is, he was defending his life. "
But the 9/11 recording tells a different story:
Horn: He's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window.
Dispatcher: Don't, don't -- don't go out the door. Mr. Horn? Mr. Horn?
Horn: They just stole something. I'm going after them, I'm sorry.
Dispatcher: Don't go outside.
Horn: I ain't letting them get away with this shit. They stole something. They got a bag of something.
Dispatcher: Don't go outside the house.
Horn: I'm doing this.
Dispatcher: Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house.
Horn: I'm sorry. This ain't right, buddy.
Dispatcher: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think.
Horn: You want to make a bet?
Dispatcher: OK? Stay in the house.
Horn: They're getting away!
Dispatcher: That's all right. Property's not worth killing someone over, OK?
Horn: (curses)
Dispatcher: Don't go out the house. Don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pissed and you're frustrated, but don't do it.
Horn: They got a bag of loot.
Dispatcher: OK. How big is the bag? … Which way are they going?
Horn: I'm going outside. I'll find out.
Dispatcher: I don't want you going outside, Mr. Horn.
Horn: Well, here it goes, buddy. You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going.
Dispatcher: Don't go outside.
Horn: (yelling) Move, you're dead!
(Sound of shots being fired)
Besides being a disturbing recording, the tape is also notable for what it reveals about the moments before Horn saw Ortiz and de Jesus emerge from the window. "I have a right to protect myself too, sir," Horn argued with the dispatcher. "… And the laws have been changed in this country since September the first, and you know it and I know it."
Horn was referring to Texas's newly enacted Castle Law, signed by Gov. Rick Perry on March 27, 2007, and which had gone into effect that fall. The law, as described by the governor, "allows Texans to not only protect themselves from criminals, but to receive the protection of state law when circumstances dictate that they use deadly force." Its benefit, Perry said, is that "it protects law-abiding citizens from unfair litigation and further clarifies their right to self-defense."
It may seem like a stretch to say Horn was acting out of self-defense. As CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin observed after listening to the tape, "He does not appear to be someone who's in a panic. It's a very cool and rather chilling determination to go out and use his gun, against the instructions of the 911 operator." Nevertheless, the new statute ultimately saved Horn from prosecution. Whether or not the law was designed to protect private property as much as human life, rather than "clarifying" the right to self-defense, as Perry claims, the practical effect of Texas' Castle Law appears to be a broadening of the definition to an unprecedented -- and deadly -- degree.
"Stand Your Ground" Laws
The Castle Law is not some wild Texas invention. In fact, the "castle doctrine" is a concept that dates back to English Common Law. As Ohio State law professor and criminal justice expert Joshua Dressler explains, the castle doctrine basically dictates "that your home is your castle; it's the one place where you should be able to be free from intrusion." This idea has provided the legal basis for self-defense legislation across the country for years -- legislation that traditionally has also acknowledged a person's "duty to retreat" in the face of a threatening situation. "The law has always taken the view for self-defense that someone can use deadly force to respond to what the person reasonably believes is a threat," explains Dressler. But, he adds, "the old law tended to be that people ought not to use deadly force until absolutely necessary. They tended to require people to find non-deadly solutions."
Recent decades have seen some exceptions. One precursor to the new Texas law is a 1985 Colorado law, nicknamed the "Make My Day" law, that treats property crimes as legitimate grounds for the use of force. The law came under national scrutiny in 1990, when an 18-year-old named Laureano Jacobo Grieigo Jr. was shot in the head by a 69-year-old-man as he fled his the man's home in an unsuccessful robbery attempt. No charges were filed, and an article published in the New York Times at the time called the law an "unusual" statute "that protects people from any criminal charge or civil suit if they use force -- including deadly force -- against an invader of the home." (The same article quoted a criminologist at Florida International University, Dr. William Wilbanks, who warned that the law was ripe for abuse. "The danger is not that this kind of law will be abandoned, but that it will be extended even more," he said. ''The public sentiment is clearly behind this kind of law.")
Almost two decades later, Texas' Castle Law is part of a wave of similar legislation passed by states throughout the country, building upon the castle doctrine and broadening the right of civilians to use lethal force under the auspices of self-defense. The new laws are particularly expansive in that they go beyond the boundaries of private homes to include cars, workplaces or anywhere else a person may feel threatened. In this sense, says Dressler, "what is happening is that the castle doctrine is becoming less important."
Leading the pack was Florida. In 2005, Gov. Jeb Bush signed a law that, as written, "authorizes (a) person to use force, including deadly force, against (an) intruder or attacker in (a) dwelling, residence, or vehicle under specified circumstances." The law "provides that person is justified in using deadly force under certain circumstances," and "provides immunity from criminal prosecution or civil action for using deadly force." Formally called the "Protection of Persons/Use of Force" law, it became known as the "Stand Your Ground" law.
Heavily backed by the National Rifle Association, Florida's new law alarmed more than just gun control advocates. Many people were appalled at the fact that it could apply in public spaces. As the Christian Science Monitor reported at the time:
"Most significantly, (the law) now extends that right to public places, too, meaning that a person no longer has a duty to retreat from what they perceive to be a threatening situation before they are entitled to pull the trigger. Members of the public may now stand their ground and "meet force with force," it states, without fear of criminal prosecution or civil litigation. "It's common sense to allow people to defend themselves," said Gov. Jeb Bush (R) as he signed the new law."
Only 20 state legislators opposed the law. One Democratic critic worried that it could "turn Florida into the OK Corral," but other Democratic politicians "admitted that they did not want to appear soft on crime by voting against it." It helped that one of the driving forces behind the law was Marion Hammer, a lobbyist who argued that the law would protect women against abuse and assault. She "characterized herself as a feminist," recalls Dressler, "but … more relevantly, was a former president of the NRA."
Mere months after the passage of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, similar legislation was being proposed in more than 20 states. The NRA was happy to take the credit. "Today, the NRA is feeding the firebox of Castle Doctrine legislation in states throughout the country," an article posted on the NRA's Institute for Legislative Action Web site boasted, crediting itself with "reuniting Americans with the right to protect themselves and loved ones from danger."
"Justifiable Homicides" on the Rise
Today, there are similar new laws in at least 15 states across the country, and while it may be too early to know the effects, in Texas, the newly passed Castle Law was followed by a series of shootings that prompted questioning over the potential "sudden impact." "Does new law make them quicker to pull the trigger?" asked the Dallas Morning News in January. (At least one source said yes: "I think the Castle Law has more citizens thinking about fighting back, knowing they're protected from being sued later," said a Dallas man who shot and killed a man who broke into his garage, "where he stored thousands of dollars worth of tools.")
Anecdotal evidence aside, one recent government report suggests that the laws may be having some effect. A little-noticed study released in mid-October by the FBI found a spike in the number of "justifiable homicides" recorded in the past few years.
The FBI defines "justifiable homicides" as "certain willful killings" that "must be reported as justifiable, or excusable." This includes "the killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty" and "the killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen." According to the report, in 2007, police officers killed 391 people -- the highest number since 1994 -- and private citizens killed 254 -- the most since 1997.
Although the report got little attention in the press, an article in USA Today quoted criminal justice experts who cited "an emerging 'shoot-first' mentality by police and private citizens" as a possible explanation.
Dressler agrees. "What's been happening is that a lot of states have broadened their homicide rules to give greater authority to citizens to use deadly force in circumstances that in the past would not have been permissible," he says. Expanding "stand your ground" style legislation "means that there are going to be, in the future, many more homicides perpetrated by citizens against other citizens -- homicides that were in the past viewed as criminal now will be seen as justifiable."
"If you talk to prosecutors, the message that they're getting is, really, don't even prosecute cases that come close to the category of what is now deemed 'just homicides.'"
Whether a killing is "just" or not is currently determined by local police departments, to whom the concept is long familiar. "Police, of course, use justifiable homicide, both in self-defense and in crime prevention," explains Dressler, "but now a couple things are happening. One is the reality that … thanks to the NRA, some fairly conservative judges, Republicans, we've really become an armed nation. Far more people possess guns today than in the more distant past, and that means that when a police officer is dealing with someone, they have much greater reason to fear that the person they're dealing with is armed." This, perhaps, helps to explain the rise in "justifiable homicides" committed by police (not to mention the rise of "non-lethal" weapons like tasers, themselves deadly weapons).
The recent FBI study is not the first time the government has tracked the number of "justifiable homicides" committed by police alongside those committed by civilians as if they were equivalent phenomena. But given that police officers are, at least in theory, trained to be uniquely authorized to use force in a law enforcement capacity, to what extent do these new laws blur the distinction between police and civilians?
"I think the creed of the NRA is that citizens/civilians have the right to use deadly force because the police don't (or cannot) protect us," says Dressler. "So, under that view, yes, the distinction is blurring."
More Homicides Will Be Seen as Justifiable
Although it may be an old concept, the notion of "justifiable homicides" is itself a slippery one. Anti-abortion extremists, for example, have used the term to describe the killing of abortion providers, on the grounds that they are defending the lives of the unborn. But perhaps more alarming is the positive connotation the term holds for some. When a Memphis paper reported earlier this year that the number of local justifiable homicides "jumped from 11 in 2006 to 32 in 2007," it quoted a firearms instructor whose (admittedly unscientific) explanation was that "the thugs have started running into people who can protect themselves." It's a rather glib way to talk about murder, and the perverse effect is to cast the killings as a positive trend. In Memphis that year, the 32 "justifiable homicides" included four killings by police officers. "All were found to be what internal affairs investigators term 'good shoots,'" according to the report, which explained that "Tennessee law gives citizens the right to defend themselves if they have a reasonable and imminent fear of harm from a carjacker, rapist, burglar or other violent assailant. They can also employ deadly force to protect another person."
But what about another person's property, as in the case of Joe Horn? If a person can shoot two men in the back and get away with it -- and, indeed, if he cites his legal right to do so -- haven't these laws gone too far?
Dressler thinks so. "My fear is that these changes in self-defense laws will lead to a lot more homicides -- and that a lot more homicides will be seen as justifiable."
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: sju on Nov 14, 2008 1:02 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America is the wild wild west and that is NOT something to be proud of.
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» Excessive force investigations should always be an option.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: xcessive force investigations should always be an option.
Posted by: kungfuma
» I'm sorry...
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: I'm sorry...
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: I love it, too
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: I love it.
Posted by: rickiey
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reelectnoone on Nov 14, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Horn will become the reason for more anti-gun crusades because of his stupidity and brutality.
When will gun owners wise up to the fact that, even though we have the right to own fire arms, the 2nd amendment does not give anyone the right to kill. If we lose those rights it will be because of people like Horn who go out on a limb to prove how stupid some people can be when they have a gun.
Owning a gun comes with responsibility. Horn and people like him fail the test...those are the very people who should never own a gun because it puts in jeopardy, that right for everyone else.
Gun owners should be up in arms that Horn was not tried for murder
Yes I am a democrat...yes I am a gun owner and support that right and never listen to NRA crap that we don't support gun ownership. That right does not include the right to commit murder.
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» Thank you for bringing sanity to the discussion REN!!
Posted by: BreeMass
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Posted by: wonkywriter on Nov 14, 2008 11:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since you are so concerned about people getting away with crimes commited, how would you feel about someone walking up to a Wall Street banker, who had just been paid $400 million in bonuses after steering his institution into a financial ditch only to be bailed out by the taxpayers, and shooting him in the back right there on the sidewalk in front of Starbucks? Or is it only the crimes of the drug addict or destitute that get your dander up?
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» RE: I love it.
Posted by: rickiey
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Posted by: truthlover on Nov 14, 2008 12:50 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember an ad that showed a series of shots:
- young black man running along a street
- as he passes, another person turns and then looks horrified
- runner throws himself at an old lady, pushing her up against a wall and terrifying her
and finally -
- a heavy load from a breaking crane cable falls right where she was just standing
You may THINK it's obvious what someone is doing, and you may be WRONG.
And that's quite apart from whether you believe theft should carry an automatic death penalty.
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» RE: There's a fundamental problem with this: Wrong
Posted by: rickiey
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Posted by: Crazy H on Nov 14, 2008 2:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Would he have been within his rights to shoot Horn in the back?
...and if a third trigger-happy neighbor had seen the shooting?
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» Honky Pride
Posted by: schiffer
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Posted by: countingdaisies on Nov 14, 2008 3:22 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I love it.
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: I loath it.
Posted by: schiffer
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Posted by: pelican beak on Nov 14, 2008 11:59 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't like what W's crew is doing, but I more strongly don't like what you seem to be advocating.
Your thinking, honky, leads to nowhere I want to go.
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Posted by: Dboy on Nov 15, 2008 2:36 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Exactly right.
dboy
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Posted by: aouie01 on Nov 14, 2008 1:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sincerely,
Aouie
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» RE: Some freedoms are lost without empowerement to secure self and property, and stand one's ground.
Posted by: reelectnoone
» Everyone should be allowed any necessary force (including deadly) to prevent evasion of arrest.
Posted by: aouie01
» Information related to use of force in making a citizen's arrest in CA.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Some freedoms are lost without empowerement to secure self and property, and stand one's ground.
Posted by: TagsNOLA
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Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Nov 14, 2008 2:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Tough one
Posted by: dcyalter
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Posted by: willie.horton on Nov 14, 2008 3:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bottom line, however, is this: there are 200+ million firearms in the USA, and millions of carry permits issued in 39 states, and that fact combined with recent "Castle Law" modifications will result in a dozen additional deaths per year... ten of which would have been legal before the laws were changed.
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Posted by: Shehova on Nov 14, 2008 6:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 14, 2008 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: schiffer on Nov 14, 2008 5:37 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is only one way a gun can solve all the problems of society as you seem to think.
Turn it on yourself.
Seriously.
Thank you, and good night.
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» RE: You are but a worm
Posted by: partisan
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Posted by: BeckyD on Nov 14, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If a man breaks into my home, how am I supposed to know if he's 'just a burglar' or if he's going to rape and murder me? Shoot first and ask questions later makes a lot of sense to me.
I think Mr. Horn was probably in the wrong - it wasn't his house, he had no reasonable fear that his life or even his property may have been threatened. He would have been better off 'shooting' them with a camera to aid the police in later identifying the thieves. But one bad example doesn't negate the principle of the law - that we have the right to be safe and secure in our own homes.
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» Problem here - shoot first only if necessary to prevent a crime (or safety concerns?)
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Problem here - shoot first only if necessary to prevent a crime (or safety concerns?)
Posted by: binxwalker
» RE: Problem here - shoot first only if necessary to prevent a crime (or safety concerns?)
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Problem here - shoot first only if necessary to prevent a crime (or safety concerns?)
Posted by: BeckyD
» I agree, but...
Posted by: BreeMass
» Please read what I actually wrote
Posted by: BeckyD
» Securing the safety of self, others and property is up to us all.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Not a problem here
Posted by: reelectnoone
» RE: Not a problem here
Posted by: babs
» If you MUST use your gun
Posted by: truthlover
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rod on Nov 14, 2008 4:11 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rod
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» One small problem...
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: One small problem...
Posted by: GK
» RE: One small problem...
Posted by: schiffer
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Posted by: HBoyer on Nov 14, 2008 4:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That was when I decided to leave Ohio and move to a state that allows home owners to protect their homes against criminals.
It is better to kill a criminal that has broken into your home than to allow that criminal to Kill You.
I am a Democrat, left wing liberal that believes in the 2nd Amendment and the right to protect your home with deadly force.
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» Preferably protections not limited to homes.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Preferably protections not limited to homes.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Preferably protections not limited to homes.
Posted by: aouie01
» This right should be extended to the homeless.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Ms Seguria is dead Wrong
Posted by: reelectnoone
» RE: Ms Seguria is dead Wrong
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» Another left-wing liberal for the right of defense
Posted by: partisan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Allstar Cookie on Nov 14, 2008 4:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Republican....am I really the only one on a so far that thinks this guy with the gun is a NUTJOB!?
His own life a wasn't in any danger....he went looking for trouble. It's like he couldn't wait to fire that thing. IDIOT.
Believe me, I know what it's like to have someone on your property that shouldn't be on your property. My wife and I live in a nice neighborhood, but over the last few summers, we've had, not only our cars broken into, but we had someone IN OUR HOUSE while we were home.
Mostly poor kids from bad areas.....looking for quick change.
The only thing this guy should have been shooting, is a camera.
Allstar Cookie
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» Enforcing laws and arresting suspects is fine, but this person will likely fail a proper screening.
Posted by: aouie01
» The case was probably not presented objectively
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: The case was probably not presented objectively
Posted by: babs
» RE: The case was probably not presented objectively
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» I think giving a verbatim account of the 911 conversation is pretty objective
Posted by: truthlover
» Neither can I!
Posted by: BreeMass
Comments are closed-
Posted by: babs on Nov 14, 2008 12:00 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
btw, Canadians have a lot of guns and lots of Americans crossing the border and living here illegally (mostly soldiers) - should they be shot? Do the border guards aim for the white ones or the brown ones?
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Posted by: bperk on Nov 14, 2008 5:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» WRONG
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: BfromCT
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: BfromCT
Posted by: americanrm
» is robbery a capital offense?
Posted by: susanh
» RE: is robbery a capital offense?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: BfromCT
Posted by: EncinoM
» In the eyes of the law
Posted by: BreeMass
» Burglary is NOT a capital crime!!
Posted by: BreeMass
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jcutler9 on Nov 14, 2008 5:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would have been devastated had my neighbors shot these burglars dead. My property is not worth that.
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» RE: on excessive force
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: on excessive force
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: on excessive force
Posted by: rickiey
Comments are closed-
Posted by: douglashoyt on Nov 14, 2008 6:05 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And you fools voted the same people back into power with the dream/hope that they will correct the problem.
You are delusional and cowards.
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Posted by: mike_burns on Nov 14, 2008 6:09 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: We Need Our Guns
Posted by: AlienSlave
» Jesus...
Posted by: BreeMass
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Posted by: jleman on Nov 14, 2008 6:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about the thieves of "Wall Street"? Or, the Federal Reserve Bank?
Maybe we could get Sarah Palin to hype up ole Horn to go on a rampage?
Congress won't impeach, so we just get ole Horn to grab his shotgun and meet ole Cheney in the middle of Main Street?
We all know the legal system in this country has been,,, compromised, when the executive branch breaks laws and then hides behind "national security" and "wartime". Congress then refuses to impeach while the Pres. pardons criminals protecting himself from prosecution.
Maybe we should just allow the world court to try them as war criminals? Or, turn the Horns of the world loose on them?
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Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Nov 14, 2008 6:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet has a long history of being anti-firearm and anti-hunting and anti-anything that involves weapons. I am pleased to see more and more commenters calling them out on their bullshit. The case cited in this one is a bit of a grey area and the article did not present all of the facts so I won't pass judgement on whether or not he acted prudently in shooting those two men. I'd wager that Alternet was very selective about which parts of the case they presented so any debate about whether he was justified or not is meaningless until we know all the facts.
Why should I, as a free citizen, be required to hold negotiations with an intruder in my home before I shoot him in the back, the chest, the head or whatever other part of him I can get a shot off at? Why should I, as a free citizen, be required to rouse my family from sleep and make an attempt to retreat from my own home instead of opening fire? Why should I, as a free citizen, be required to observe an intruder and make an accurate assessment of his potential for violence before I open fire?
There will certainly be tragic and unfortunate killings that happen as a result of these laws. These so-called "shoot first ask questions later" laws have put criminals on notice. The next person they try to terrorize might not let them get away with it. The next woman they try to rape in a parking garage might decide to shoot him in the chest instead of letting him get within 10 feet of her. The next elderly couple they try to rob might not be as infirm as they initially suspected.
A line has to be drawn somewhere but we, as a society, have to make a decision. Do we depend entirely on the government to ensure our safety or do we exercise our constitutional right to own a gun and protect ourself when needed? Obviously it will be somewhere in between but I haven't seen any evidence besides cherry-picked anecdotes that counter the mountain of evidence that arming and enabling private, law-abiding citizens reduces violent crime.
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» RE: Left wing is dead-wrong on the gun issue
Posted by: reelectnoone
» You are right that he will be a poster child
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» You reject any requirements on yourself
Posted by: susanh
» You are taking this to extremes
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» You should be willing to bear some consequences of a mistake
Posted by: susanh
» RE: You should be willing to bear some consequences of a mistake
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» I don't trust you
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: I don't trust you
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I don't trust you
Posted by: suprmark
» One problem
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: One problem
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: One problem
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: One problem
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: One problem
Posted by: babs
» RE: One problem
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» The 2nd Amendment is being DISTORTED by the phoney NRA.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: The 2nd Amendment is being DISTORTED by the phoney NRA.
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: The 2nd Amendment is being DISTORTED by the phoney NRA.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: susanh on Nov 14, 2008 9:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you think we should uphold due process in this country? Or it's okay for people with guns to just decide in the moment what the crime is, who the criminal is, and do the executing?
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Posted by: Karina on Nov 14, 2008 9:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BreeMass on Nov 14, 2008 10:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I agree. Due process is also a constitutional right.
Posted by: susanh
Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 14, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S.: When you gun toters are done foaming at the mouth standing naked with a gun and a bible, let me know.
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» I am a gun-toter.
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I am a gun-toter.
Posted by: Juven
» I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: Life of Illusion
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: Life of Illusion
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» The original poster
Posted by: Juven
» Ok, apologies to you then.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Guns or none, the constitution is already trashed or at best subverted.
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: throck on Nov 14, 2008 7:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» pretty broad statement ...
Posted by: susanh
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Posted by: lexicon on Nov 14, 2008 8:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That problem is, that the person staring down the wrong end of the gun will most likely end up dead.
Without additional facts, just relying on that 911 transcript in the article, I hear something very disturbing. that is, that it seemed that there were two legal frameworks in play, simultaneously, in that situation. The shooter was in the legal position of assuring his personal safety, but he was ALSO in the legal position of meting out SUMMARY JUDGMENT.
He was apparently NOT motivated by personal safety, but was rather motivated by the desire to supplant the judiciary, and decided that a summary execution was called for.
He had the option to not engage.
When a cop is chasing a shoplifter down the street, he refrains from pulling his service weapon, because he understands, as per his training as a component of the judicial system, that no court is going to sentence the stupid perp to a death penalty, for shoplifting and resisting arrest by fleeing. There is no imminent personal threat.
This is much the same situation.
Now, when that same assailant charges that same cop with a weapon in his hand, the cop has a valid self-defense prerogative, and is most likely justifiable.
the question is, are you REALLY protecting yourself, or are you playing judge-jury-executioner? Does anyone see a problem with that?
I have this bad feeling, that if the two "illegal immigrants" had stopped dead in their tracks, and frozen, hands in the air, they would have been shot anyway by this guy Horn. He was not there to protect anything, he was there to dispense texas-style justice.
lexicon
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» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: jeffr
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Canute on Nov 14, 2008 8:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Same things apply to these Castle Laws. In theory, sure, defend your own life. In reality, you get incidents like those exchange students who got lost and shot down on some guy's doorstep. I am sure we'll see some scary-but-harmless homeless people gunned down while raving at their personal demons and teenagers killed while sneaking home after hours.
There is a popular saying among the NRA crowd: "Better judged by twelve than carried by six." Fine. People should think twice, three, ten times before pulling the trigger. We are an emotional, impulsive, irrational, xenophobic, error prone species. The idea of possible prosecution is at least a minimal restraint on some paranoid racist peering out through his curtains. Or, for that matter, on you or me, our rational minds short-circuited by the sight of a stranger in the night. If your life is really under threat, the jury will let you go, but with a gun in your hand you need the thought of that jury in the back of your mind.
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» RE: Theory vs. Reality
Posted by: Life of Illusion
» RE: Theory vs. Reality
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Theory vs. Reality
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Theory vs. Reality
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bab5nutz on Nov 14, 2008 8:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I have no desire to see my country go gun-crazy, I do wish that the law would allow a little more leeway for self-defense. Even carrying pepper-spray here is a big no-no.
There was a liquor store owner who injured a man who was trying to rob his shop - and now he is the one on trial.
Three months ago, a friend of mine was raped and murdered when she went to rescue a cat. I wonder what the outcome would have have been if she had been carrying pepperspray?
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» RE: Here, We Need More Leeway for Self-Defense
Posted by: Jennie
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Posted by: reelectnoone on Nov 14, 2008 8:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The members of that grand jury simply add to the argument for gun bans.
He should be tried for murder. It was not self defense because he was safe inside his own home and chose to leave that safety even as police insisted he remain inside. Add to that the cowardly fact that he shot them in the back.
Let me be clear that even though I am a democrat I believe in the right to own guns. I believe we have a right to defend our own lives and the lives of our families.
I do not believe we have any right to kill just to protect property when no one is in physical danger. Not ours and not our neighbors.
Two crimes were committed that day, burglary and a double homicide. No justice was done.
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 14, 2008 8:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Suppose They Had Been Gardeners?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Suppose They Had Been Gardeners?
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» Gardeners who climb out the window?
Posted by: BeckyD
» Too bad Horn acted too prematurely just like Bush on Iraq.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Suppose They Had Been Gardeners?
Posted by: jeffr
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Posted by: gradioc on Nov 14, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Elmowilcox on Nov 14, 2008 9:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who here would like to defend the criminals right to fair trial, given that not a single one of these crimes went punished? Blame the police for not catching them? Come on. Crime, as it turns out, does pay. It got some fuck an mint 89 Mustang 5.0 for free, about three of my car stereos that NO, I didn't get to replace with insurance, several televisions, earned me a trip to the ER, jewelry..and I'll just stop there. Not one single event went punished, not one. Never a lead or even a call back from the police department. If I had been there with a gun, they'd all be dead, or I'd be dead...period. I don't care what they were going through, don't care if they had families or children, don't care if they were on drugs.
As bad as this country is at doling out punishment, it easily surpasses those failures in actually failing to punishing real criminals. When people get away time and time again, they well, continue to do crimes and get away time and time again.
I was just burglarized in broad daylight about two months ago in an apartment that I don't get to move out of for another year. Who do you feel for? The bastards that got my TV that isn't even paid for yet? I get to live, yes, but I'm frightened(dare I say, terrorized) everyday now that some fucks know that I'm not home between the hours of 8-5 and that they left behind much more than they took. Not like I can change my patterns, I'VE got a job, and we're only open certain hours of which I'm expected to be there. I've got a wife that's pregnant that could be home at any given time when they come back. They have pictures of her on the digital camera they stole. And all it takes for a thief to become a murderering rapist is for the resident to be home when they stop in for a shopping spree. It's actually not much of a stretch for these people. I've often said that thieves are as bad if not worse than murderers, because murderers often have some kind of reason for killing, whereas thieves just want something that doesn't belong to them and aren't willing to earn it and even worse will go as far as killing to get it.
Break into my home or try to steal my car and you're dead if I'm there. Call me fringe, call me radical, call me immoral. I'm tired of putting up with it. The police(apologies) are worthless at catching most real criminals. They are more likely to arrest me for my bong while investigating my burglary. End of story.
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» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: babs
» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: Elmowilcox
Comments are closed-
Posted by: On the Border on Nov 14, 2008 9:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With that said, the man used as an example at the article's outset was the worst possible example. He is absolutely guilty of willful homicide and should spend the rest of his life in prison. Only in TX would they let him walk.
And the idea that he "felt his life was in danger," as presented by his attorney, is patently absurd. He was in his house, armed with a shotgun, on the phone with 911. The guy's a murderer and ought to have been treated as such.
No property is worth a human life. But if somebody's threatening another human life, this particular liberal will do what he must. And should that happen, the law ought to be on my side.
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» Rationality...what a concept!
Posted by: BreeMass
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Posted by: SteveO on Nov 14, 2008 9:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What happens when...
Posted by: bigremo
» You didn't read the article, did you?
Posted by: susanh
» RE: You didn't read the article, did you?
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: What happens when...
Posted by: babs
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bigremo on Nov 14, 2008 9:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Knees jerking spastically....
Posted by: susanh
» RE: Knees jerking spastically....
Posted by: ellie
» Bellicose far left liberals...umm yes we can?
Posted by: susanh
» A sign of patheticness
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Knees jerking spastically....
Posted by: kungfuma
» RE: Knees jerking spastically....
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» Bang bang you're in prison
Posted by: BreeMass
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BreeMass on Nov 14, 2008 11:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lives are worth defending with deadly force. Property is not.
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» Word of the day
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» Did you not read my post?
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Did you not read my post?
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: A big difference between person and property
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: A big difference between person and property
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: A big difference between person and property
Posted by: babs
» RE: A big difference between person and property
Posted by: Elmowilcox
Comments are closed-
Posted by: inprov73 on Nov 14, 2008 12:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: truthlover on Nov 14, 2008 1:11 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SHOOTING
and
KILLING?
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» RE: There is a BIG BIG difference
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: There is a BIG BIG difference
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: There is a BIG BIG difference
Posted by: Crazy H
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Posted by: Crazy H on Nov 14, 2008 1:54 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The GOOD NEWS about castle laws
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: The GOOD NEWS about castle laws
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: The GOOD NEWS about castle laws
Posted by: Elmowilcox
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Uriahz on Nov 14, 2008 2:19 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me say this plainly: Mr Horn committed premeditated murder in the first-degree, and it is a travesty of justice that he goes unpunished. His vigilante actions, while understandable, are both illegal and unethical. If you shoot someone and they go down but they don't die, it is MURDER if you finish them off. It is. It just is-- it need not be debated. When cops shoot fleeing suspects of property crime, they are punished and the city is sued, costing taxpayers millions. And yes, that IS in fact justice. Using deadly force when it is not necessary is MURDER. Vigilantes like Horn are criminals-- they just happen to be criminals that the uneducated and irrational masses refuse to convict.
Good gun magazines address this fact, and advise citizens to act appropriately and intelligently. It is very clear that a person should have the right to protect their life and liberty, with deadly force if necessary, and without penalty. However, when you go above and beyond what is strictly necessary to defend your own body or that of others, when you use force disproportionate to the situation, you are committing a crime, just the same as any other thug. If he had tased them, or shot them with rock salt or bean bags, they'd probably still be alive, and his actions would have been appropriate to the nature of the crime.
It doesn't matter if they 'might become rapists or murderers if given the opportunity'-- there is no way to know that. A person doesn't automatically give up their humanity when they steal something. Regardless of the likely absence of feelings of guilt and recrimination, willingness to commit property crime does not indicate predisposition to violence. Shooting someone as they attempt to flee the scene is the exact same as tracking down the guy who stole your TV and shooting them in the head at a later date. Unlike breaking into your house and stealing your stuff, that killing is the act of a violent individual, who not only has no respect for law and order, but also has no respect for the sanctity of life, a person who is an obvious danger to those around them, AS EVIDENCED BY THEIR ACTIONS. And those who support such action are also a danger to the community. They exist without rational thought, and are willing to kill for no ethical reason, and dare to call that 'justice'. They have become twisted, corrupted with hatred for the criminals they fear and loathe, so much so that they themselves are no better than the desperate souls they seek out their sick vengeance upon. These are the wretched creatures that have filled out lynch mobs throughout history.
Yes, Hunt is a perfect example in the case for gun control. Him and people like him are the reason countries ban private gun ownership. Personally, I am firmly against gun control, as well as absolutely for the right to defend oneself, but the responsibility that comes with controlling a deadly weapon MUST NOT BE SHIRKED.
Hunt is a murderer, regardless of whether or not he got away with it via the ill-thought sympathies of a jury in Texas. He should be punished, not by the barbaric vigilante 'justice' of a street mob or a lone gunman, as he himself meted out that day that he murdered those two immigrants, but by the measured, consistent, and collective efforts of our justice system.
I am asking that you be intelligent, informed, and responsible when it comes to gun ownership. Life is not an action movie. This is important.
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» Addendum
Posted by: Uriahz
» RE: Addendum
Posted by: aouie01
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Posted by: sirios on Nov 14, 2008 2:57 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 14, 2008 3:34 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think all of the energy expended on this issue should be devoted to improving taser technology to the point where everybody can own the equivalent of a phaser set to "stun". That way, nobody gets hurt or killed, but the criminals are stopped in their tracks, and stay knocked out until law enforcement picks them up.
If you can get 20/20 vision with laser surgery, the technology can't be too far off. Let's put our heads together, so that we can all live long and prosper, while the thieves rot in prison.
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» RE: Justifiable
Posted by: aouie01
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 14, 2008 7:06 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: lucius13 on Nov 14, 2008 9:32 PM
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Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Nov 14, 2008 10:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Joe Horn shooting controversy refers to the events of November 14, 2007, in Pasadena, Texas, United States when local resident Joe Horn shot and killed two men burglarizing his neighbor's home. Publicized recordings of Horn's exchange with emergency dispatch indicate that he was asked repeatedly not to interfere with the burglary, because the police would soon be on hand.[1] The shootings have resulted in debate regarding self-defense, Castle Doctrine laws, and Texas laws relating to use of (deadly) force to prevent or stop property crimes. The illegal alien status of the burglars has been highlighted because of the U.S. border controversy.[2] On June 30, 2008, Joe Horn was cleared by a grand jury in the Pasadena shootings.
Joe Horn, 61, spotted two burglars breaking into his next-door Vietnamese-American neighbor's home in Pasadena, Texas. He called 911 to call police to the scene. While on the phone with emergency dispatch, Horn stated that he had the right to use deadly force to defend property, referencing a law (Texas Penal Code § 9.41., § 9.42., and § 9.43.) which justified the use of deadly force to protect property. He stated that he was going to go outside and confront the burglars. As the burglars were exiting his neighbor's home, and approaching Horn's home, Horn exited his home with his shotgun, while the 911 Operator tried to dissuade him from that action. On the 911 tape, he is heard confronting the suspects, saying, "Move, and you're dead",[3] immediately followed by the sound of a shotgun blast, followed by two more.[4] Following the shootings Mr. Horn told the 911 operator, "They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!" [5]
Police initially identified the dead men in Horn's yard as 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston of Afro Latino descent. However, DeJesus was actually an alias of Hernando Riascos Torres, 38.[3] They were carrying a sack with more than $2,000 cash and jewelry taken from the home. Both were convicted criminals from Colombia who had entered the country illegally, and were members of an organized burglary ring in Houston.[1] Police found a Puerto Rican identification card on Ortiz while Torres had three identification cards from Colombia, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic, and had been previously sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999.[6]
A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.[3] His report on the incident indicated that the men who were killed "received gunfire from the rear".[1] Police Capt. A.H. Corbett stated the two men ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze and one of the suspects ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back. Pasadena police confirmed that the two men were shot after they ventured into his front yard. The detective did not arrest Horn.
The incident touched off protests, led by community activist Quanell X, that were met by counter-protests from Horn's supporters.[7][8][9][10]
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» RE: Some facts omitted by Alternet
Posted by: Life of Illusion
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Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 15, 2008 1:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He immediately phoned the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?" and George said no and explained the situation. Then they explained that all patrols were busy, and that he should simply lock his door and an officer would be there when available.
George said, "Okay," hung up, counted to 30, and phoned the police again.
"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I've just shot them all."
Then he hung up. Within five minutes three squad cars, an Armed Response unit, and an ambulance showed up. Of course, the police caught the burglars red-handed.
One of the policemen said to George: "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"
George said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"
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» RE: You can try this, this should speed up the responce time.
Posted by: Mel H.
» I never looked at it that way, but it makes alot of sence!
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 15, 2008 1:07 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Go find a neo-Nazi forum you jackass. That shit isn't even funny.
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» That shit is funny. No amnesty! Wait your turn! End of the line!
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: macdon1 on Nov 15, 2008 2:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Only Some Have the Right to Defend Themselves
Posted by: macdon1
» The NRA does not address those people. They are indeed racist.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Only Some Have the Right to Defend Themselves
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fsilber on Nov 15, 2008 7:28 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They _are_ equivalent phenomena. No law privileges policemen with a special right to use deadly force -- the law pertaining to their use of deadly force is the same law that applies to everyone. Unlike France, where gendarmes serve under martial law and are part of the military, our policemen _are_ civilians. We pay them to give full-time attention to problems that we could (but usually prefer not to) deal with ourselves. This is what it means when we say that policemen are public servants (as contrasted with those countries where police are servants of the rulers). This is what it means when we speak of practicing "self-government." This is what Abraham Lincoln meant when in the Gettysburg Address he referred to government _of_ the people, _by_ the people, and (not merely) for the people.
Anyway, if the principle of "better to free ten guilty men than to convict one innocent" applies to _any_ suspect, it most certainly applies to taxpayers defending themselves from victimization by criminals.
But if the criminals feel they are being treated too harshly, I suggest they consider going on strike.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 15, 2008 9:18 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» laughable
Posted by: Elmowilcox
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Posted by: donovan1983 on Nov 16, 2008 12:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That said, I do very strongly believe in the right to defend your personal safety and personal property, by any means necessary. Criminals thrive on knowing that their victims are essentially helpless and they use that to their advantage. I'm not a gun owner and am not a member of the NRA, but I very much support "make my day" laws, gun ownership, and concealed carry permits or laws. I don't see why a mugger doesn't deserve to get shot for trying to steal someone's wallet. And a burglar who enters a house or business very well deserves to be shot, whether it is in the immediate act of protecting one's self or to recover the stolen property after immediate danger has passed. I would hope that whomever is defending themselves would only disable the criminal rather than kill them, but if the criminal gets killed while committing his crime, well, he should have considered that risk beforehand. It's a certainty that if the consequences were more severe, there'd be fewer criminals.
Again, I don't support vigilante justice and I don't think defense extends beyond you, your family, and members of your household (if the crime happens in your home). If you see a guy robbing a 7-Eleven you don't have any right to go up and shoot the robber, that's the right and responsibility of the owner or whomever is working there at the time. And you certainly don't have the right to calmly walk out and shoot a couple guys in the back who robbed your neighbour's house.
The police don't really bother much with property crimes and criminals know it. The cops are too busy arresting a guy carrying some weed or ticketing someone who didn't signal when changing lanes than responding to someone stealing from someone's garage or breaking into a house. With these misplaced priorities, and the rather overworked nature of most larger police departments, citizens have to be left with some recourse to defends themselves and their property. Criminals should not be allowed to get away with "simple property crimes" or be allowed to roam around raping and killing just because government thinks only law enforcement should be allowed to stop it.
Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and property and those who infringe upon yours should very well be punished for it, and in a way that deters those who would consider infringing your rights to reconsider.
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Posted by: Dyolfknip on Nov 16, 2008 4:38 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had an inclination that Americans were socialized to believe "might is right" but I had no idea it was so pervasive. sick people! F***ing sick! Does the fact that they were stealing something justify that they were killed? Could you actually sleep at night knowing that you ended the lives of two people over material possessions? More often than not the only demarcation between "citizens" and "criminals" is a failing social structure and These kind of laws will only encourage people to bring guns along when they steal.
The threat and use of violence will only cause others to adopt those methods leading to a terrible "one up" kind of game and hiding behind the law for your murderous actions doesn't change the fact that you are a killer. If this doesn't bother you in the slightest I have a suggestion: stay inside, lock your doors, bar your windows and fawn over your precious possessions to which you attach so much importance and don't bother participating in society because your ideology will only magnify the existing problem. Truly, someone who can justify killing in this way was likely waiting for the perfect opportunity to do so.
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» If they stopped and put their hands up it wouldn't of happened!!
Posted by: Landbaron
» Like to see your attitude after you've been ripped off alot.
Posted by: Landbaron
» It's called suicide by homeowner.
Posted by: Landbaron
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rob-bot on Nov 16, 2008 6:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GEM-592 on Nov 17, 2008 3:53 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 18, 2008 12:32 PM
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Posted by: otto on Nov 22, 2008 6:44 PM
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Posted by: sju on Nov 14, 2008 1:02 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America is the wild wild west and that is NOT something to be proud of.
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» Excessive force investigations should always be an option.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: xcessive force investigations should always be an option.
Posted by: kungfuma
» I'm sorry...
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: I'm sorry...
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: I love it, too
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: I love it.
Posted by: rickiey
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reelectnoone on Nov 14, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Horn will become the reason for more anti-gun crusades because of his stupidity and brutality.
When will gun owners wise up to the fact that, even though we have the right to own fire arms, the 2nd amendment does not give anyone the right to kill. If we lose those rights it will be because of people like Horn who go out on a limb to prove how stupid some people can be when they have a gun.
Owning a gun comes with responsibility. Horn and people like him fail the test...those are the very people who should never own a gun because it puts in jeopardy, that right for everyone else.
Gun owners should be up in arms that Horn was not tried for murder
Yes I am a democrat...yes I am a gun owner and support that right and never listen to NRA crap that we don't support gun ownership. That right does not include the right to commit murder.
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» Thank you for bringing sanity to the discussion REN!!
Posted by: BreeMass
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Posted by: wonkywriter on Nov 14, 2008 11:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since you are so concerned about people getting away with crimes commited, how would you feel about someone walking up to a Wall Street banker, who had just been paid $400 million in bonuses after steering his institution into a financial ditch only to be bailed out by the taxpayers, and shooting him in the back right there on the sidewalk in front of Starbucks? Or is it only the crimes of the drug addict or destitute that get your dander up?
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» RE: I love it.
Posted by: rickiey
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Posted by: truthlover on Nov 14, 2008 12:50 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember an ad that showed a series of shots:
- young black man running along a street
- as he passes, another person turns and then looks horrified
- runner throws himself at an old lady, pushing her up against a wall and terrifying her
and finally -
- a heavy load from a breaking crane cable falls right where she was just standing
You may THINK it's obvious what someone is doing, and you may be WRONG.
And that's quite apart from whether you believe theft should carry an automatic death penalty.
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» RE: There's a fundamental problem with this: Wrong
Posted by: rickiey
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Posted by: Crazy H on Nov 14, 2008 2:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Would he have been within his rights to shoot Horn in the back?
...and if a third trigger-happy neighbor had seen the shooting?
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» Honky Pride
Posted by: schiffer
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Posted by: countingdaisies on Nov 14, 2008 3:22 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I love it.
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: I loath it.
Posted by: schiffer
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Posted by: pelican beak on Nov 14, 2008 11:59 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't like what W's crew is doing, but I more strongly don't like what you seem to be advocating.
Your thinking, honky, leads to nowhere I want to go.
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Posted by: Dboy on Nov 15, 2008 2:36 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Exactly right.
dboy
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Posted by: aouie01 on Nov 14, 2008 1:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sincerely,
Aouie
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» RE: Some freedoms are lost without empowerement to secure self and property, and stand one's ground.
Posted by: reelectnoone
» Everyone should be allowed any necessary force (including deadly) to prevent evasion of arrest.
Posted by: aouie01
» Information related to use of force in making a citizen's arrest in CA.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Some freedoms are lost without empowerement to secure self and property, and stand one's ground.
Posted by: TagsNOLA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Nov 14, 2008 2:55 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Tough one
Posted by: dcyalter
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Posted by: willie.horton on Nov 14, 2008 3:23 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bottom line, however, is this: there are 200+ million firearms in the USA, and millions of carry permits issued in 39 states, and that fact combined with recent "Castle Law" modifications will result in a dozen additional deaths per year... ten of which would have been legal before the laws were changed.
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Posted by: Shehova on Nov 14, 2008 6:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 14, 2008 8:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: schiffer on Nov 14, 2008 5:37 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is only one way a gun can solve all the problems of society as you seem to think.
Turn it on yourself.
Seriously.
Thank you, and good night.
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» RE: You are but a worm
Posted by: partisan
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Posted by: BeckyD on Nov 14, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If a man breaks into my home, how am I supposed to know if he's 'just a burglar' or if he's going to rape and murder me? Shoot first and ask questions later makes a lot of sense to me.
I think Mr. Horn was probably in the wrong - it wasn't his house, he had no reasonable fear that his life or even his property may have been threatened. He would have been better off 'shooting' them with a camera to aid the police in later identifying the thieves. But one bad example doesn't negate the principle of the law - that we have the right to be safe and secure in our own homes.
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» Problem here - shoot first only if necessary to prevent a crime (or safety concerns?)
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Problem here - shoot first only if necessary to prevent a crime (or safety concerns?)
Posted by: binxwalker
» RE: Problem here - shoot first only if necessary to prevent a crime (or safety concerns?)
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Problem here - shoot first only if necessary to prevent a crime (or safety concerns?)
Posted by: BeckyD
» I agree, but...
Posted by: BreeMass
» Please read what I actually wrote
Posted by: BeckyD
» Securing the safety of self, others and property is up to us all.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Not a problem here
Posted by: reelectnoone
» RE: Not a problem here
Posted by: babs
» If you MUST use your gun
Posted by: truthlover
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Rod on Nov 14, 2008 4:11 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rod
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» One small problem...
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: One small problem...
Posted by: GK
» RE: One small problem...
Posted by: schiffer
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HBoyer on Nov 14, 2008 4:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That was when I decided to leave Ohio and move to a state that allows home owners to protect their homes against criminals.
It is better to kill a criminal that has broken into your home than to allow that criminal to Kill You.
I am a Democrat, left wing liberal that believes in the 2nd Amendment and the right to protect your home with deadly force.
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» Preferably protections not limited to homes.
Posted by: aouie01
» RE: Preferably protections not limited to homes.
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: Preferably protections not limited to homes.
Posted by: aouie01
» This right should be extended to the homeless.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Ms Seguria is dead Wrong
Posted by: reelectnoone
» RE: Ms Seguria is dead Wrong
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» Another left-wing liberal for the right of defense
Posted by: partisan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Allstar Cookie on Nov 14, 2008 4:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Republican....am I really the only one on a so far that thinks this guy with the gun is a NUTJOB!?
His own life a wasn't in any danger....he went looking for trouble. It's like he couldn't wait to fire that thing. IDIOT.
Believe me, I know what it's like to have someone on your property that shouldn't be on your property. My wife and I live in a nice neighborhood, but over the last few summers, we've had, not only our cars broken into, but we had someone IN OUR HOUSE while we were home.
Mostly poor kids from bad areas.....looking for quick change.
The only thing this guy should have been shooting, is a camera.
Allstar Cookie
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» Enforcing laws and arresting suspects is fine, but this person will likely fail a proper screening.
Posted by: aouie01
» The case was probably not presented objectively
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: The case was probably not presented objectively
Posted by: babs
» RE: The case was probably not presented objectively
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» I think giving a verbatim account of the 911 conversation is pretty objective
Posted by: truthlover
» Neither can I!
Posted by: BreeMass
Comments are closed-
Posted by: babs on Nov 14, 2008 12:00 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
btw, Canadians have a lot of guns and lots of Americans crossing the border and living here illegally (mostly soldiers) - should they be shot? Do the border guards aim for the white ones or the brown ones?
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Posted by: bperk on Nov 14, 2008 5:27 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» WRONG
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: BfromCT
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: BfromCT
Posted by: americanrm
» is robbery a capital offense?
Posted by: susanh
» RE: is robbery a capital offense?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: BfromCT
Posted by: EncinoM
» In the eyes of the law
Posted by: BreeMass
» Burglary is NOT a capital crime!!
Posted by: BreeMass
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jcutler9 on Nov 14, 2008 5:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would have been devastated had my neighbors shot these burglars dead. My property is not worth that.
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» RE: on excessive force
Posted by: rickiey
» RE: on excessive force
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: on excessive force
Posted by: rickiey
Comments are closed-
Posted by: douglashoyt on Nov 14, 2008 6:05 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And you fools voted the same people back into power with the dream/hope that they will correct the problem.
You are delusional and cowards.
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Posted by: mike_burns on Nov 14, 2008 6:09 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: We Need Our Guns
Posted by: AlienSlave
» Jesus...
Posted by: BreeMass
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jleman on Nov 14, 2008 6:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about the thieves of "Wall Street"? Or, the Federal Reserve Bank?
Maybe we could get Sarah Palin to hype up ole Horn to go on a rampage?
Congress won't impeach, so we just get ole Horn to grab his shotgun and meet ole Cheney in the middle of Main Street?
We all know the legal system in this country has been,,, compromised, when the executive branch breaks laws and then hides behind "national security" and "wartime". Congress then refuses to impeach while the Pres. pardons criminals protecting himself from prosecution.
Maybe we should just allow the world court to try them as war criminals? Or, turn the Horns of the world loose on them?
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Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Nov 14, 2008 6:54 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet has a long history of being anti-firearm and anti-hunting and anti-anything that involves weapons. I am pleased to see more and more commenters calling them out on their bullshit. The case cited in this one is a bit of a grey area and the article did not present all of the facts so I won't pass judgement on whether or not he acted prudently in shooting those two men. I'd wager that Alternet was very selective about which parts of the case they presented so any debate about whether he was justified or not is meaningless until we know all the facts.
Why should I, as a free citizen, be required to hold negotiations with an intruder in my home before I shoot him in the back, the chest, the head or whatever other part of him I can get a shot off at? Why should I, as a free citizen, be required to rouse my family from sleep and make an attempt to retreat from my own home instead of opening fire? Why should I, as a free citizen, be required to observe an intruder and make an accurate assessment of his potential for violence before I open fire?
There will certainly be tragic and unfortunate killings that happen as a result of these laws. These so-called "shoot first ask questions later" laws have put criminals on notice. The next person they try to terrorize might not let them get away with it. The next woman they try to rape in a parking garage might decide to shoot him in the chest instead of letting him get within 10 feet of her. The next elderly couple they try to rob might not be as infirm as they initially suspected.
A line has to be drawn somewhere but we, as a society, have to make a decision. Do we depend entirely on the government to ensure our safety or do we exercise our constitutional right to own a gun and protect ourself when needed? Obviously it will be somewhere in between but I haven't seen any evidence besides cherry-picked anecdotes that counter the mountain of evidence that arming and enabling private, law-abiding citizens reduces violent crime.
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» RE: Left wing is dead-wrong on the gun issue
Posted by: reelectnoone
» You are right that he will be a poster child
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» You reject any requirements on yourself
Posted by: susanh
» You are taking this to extremes
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» You should be willing to bear some consequences of a mistake
Posted by: susanh
» RE: You should be willing to bear some consequences of a mistake
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» I don't trust you
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: I don't trust you
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I don't trust you
Posted by: suprmark
» One problem
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: One problem
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: One problem
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: One problem
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: One problem
Posted by: babs
» RE: One problem
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» The 2nd Amendment is being DISTORTED by the phoney NRA.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: The 2nd Amendment is being DISTORTED by the phoney NRA.
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: The 2nd Amendment is being DISTORTED by the phoney NRA.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: susanh on Nov 14, 2008 9:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you think we should uphold due process in this country? Or it's okay for people with guns to just decide in the moment what the crime is, who the criminal is, and do the executing?
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Posted by: Karina on Nov 14, 2008 9:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BreeMass on Nov 14, 2008 10:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I agree. Due process is also a constitutional right.
Posted by: susanh
Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 14, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
P.S.: When you gun toters are done foaming at the mouth standing naked with a gun and a bible, let me know.
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» I am a gun-toter.
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I am a gun-toter.
Posted by: Juven
» I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: Life of Illusion
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: Life of Illusion
» RE: I don't recall Obama ever indicating that he was pro "gun control".
Posted by: maxpayne
» The original poster
Posted by: Juven
» Ok, apologies to you then.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Guns or none, the constitution is already trashed or at best subverted.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: throck on Nov 14, 2008 7:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» pretty broad statement ...
Posted by: susanh
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lexicon on Nov 14, 2008 8:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That problem is, that the person staring down the wrong end of the gun will most likely end up dead.
Without additional facts, just relying on that 911 transcript in the article, I hear something very disturbing. that is, that it seemed that there were two legal frameworks in play, simultaneously, in that situation. The shooter was in the legal position of assuring his personal safety, but he was ALSO in the legal position of meting out SUMMARY JUDGMENT.
He was apparently NOT motivated by personal safety, but was rather motivated by the desire to supplant the judiciary, and decided that a summary execution was called for.
He had the option to not engage.
When a cop is chasing a shoplifter down the street, he refrains from pulling his service weapon, because he understands, as per his training as a component of the judicial system, that no court is going to sentence the stupid perp to a death penalty, for shoplifting and resisting arrest by fleeing. There is no imminent personal threat.
This is much the same situation.
Now, when that same assailant charges that same cop with a weapon in his hand, the cop has a valid self-defense prerogative, and is most likely justifiable.
the question is, are you REALLY protecting yourself, or are you playing judge-jury-executioner? Does anyone see a problem with that?
I have this bad feeling, that if the two "illegal immigrants" had stopped dead in their tracks, and frozen, hands in the air, they would have been shot anyway by this guy Horn. He was not there to protect anything, he was there to dispense texas-style justice.
lexicon
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» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Here's the fatal flaw in the gun nuts' argument:
Posted by: jeffr
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Canute on Nov 14, 2008 8:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Same things apply to these Castle Laws. In theory, sure, defend your own life. In reality, you get incidents like those exchange students who got lost and shot down on some guy's doorstep. I am sure we'll see some scary-but-harmless homeless people gunned down while raving at their personal demons and teenagers killed while sneaking home after hours.
There is a popular saying among the NRA crowd: "Better judged by twelve than carried by six." Fine. People should think twice, three, ten times before pulling the trigger. We are an emotional, impulsive, irrational, xenophobic, error prone species. The idea of possible prosecution is at least a minimal restraint on some paranoid racist peering out through his curtains. Or, for that matter, on you or me, our rational minds short-circuited by the sight of a stranger in the night. If your life is really under threat, the jury will let you go, but with a gun in your hand you need the thought of that jury in the back of your mind.
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» RE: Theory vs. Reality
Posted by: Life of Illusion
» RE: Theory vs. Reality
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Theory vs. Reality
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Theory vs. Reality
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bab5nutz on Nov 14, 2008 8:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I have no desire to see my country go gun-crazy, I do wish that the law would allow a little more leeway for self-defense. Even carrying pepper-spray here is a big no-no.
There was a liquor store owner who injured a man who was trying to rob his shop - and now he is the one on trial.
Three months ago, a friend of mine was raped and murdered when she went to rescue a cat. I wonder what the outcome would have have been if she had been carrying pepperspray?
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» RE: Here, We Need More Leeway for Self-Defense
Posted by: Jennie
Comments are closed-
Posted by: reelectnoone on Nov 14, 2008 8:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The members of that grand jury simply add to the argument for gun bans.
He should be tried for murder. It was not self defense because he was safe inside his own home and chose to leave that safety even as police insisted he remain inside. Add to that the cowardly fact that he shot them in the back.
Let me be clear that even though I am a democrat I believe in the right to own guns. I believe we have a right to defend our own lives and the lives of our families.
I do not believe we have any right to kill just to protect property when no one is in physical danger. Not ours and not our neighbors.
Two crimes were committed that day, burglary and a double homicide. No justice was done.
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Posted by: Lilly on Nov 14, 2008 8:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Suppose They Had Been Gardeners?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Suppose They Had Been Gardeners?
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» Gardeners who climb out the window?
Posted by: BeckyD
» Too bad Horn acted too prematurely just like Bush on Iraq.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Suppose They Had Been Gardeners?
Posted by: jeffr
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Posted by: gradioc on Nov 14, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Elmowilcox on Nov 14, 2008 9:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who here would like to defend the criminals right to fair trial, given that not a single one of these crimes went punished? Blame the police for not catching them? Come on. Crime, as it turns out, does pay. It got some fuck an mint 89 Mustang 5.0 for free, about three of my car stereos that NO, I didn't get to replace with insurance, several televisions, earned me a trip to the ER, jewelry..and I'll just stop there. Not one single event went punished, not one. Never a lead or even a call back from the police department. If I had been there with a gun, they'd all be dead, or I'd be dead...period. I don't care what they were going through, don't care if they had families or children, don't care if they were on drugs.
As bad as this country is at doling out punishment, it easily surpasses those failures in actually failing to punishing real criminals. When people get away time and time again, they well, continue to do crimes and get away time and time again.
I was just burglarized in broad daylight about two months ago in an apartment that I don't get to move out of for another year. Who do you feel for? The bastards that got my TV that isn't even paid for yet? I get to live, yes, but I'm frightened(dare I say, terrorized) everyday now that some fucks know that I'm not home between the hours of 8-5 and that they left behind much more than they took. Not like I can change my patterns, I'VE got a job, and we're only open certain hours of which I'm expected to be there. I've got a wife that's pregnant that could be home at any given time when they come back. They have pictures of her on the digital camera they stole. And all it takes for a thief to become a murderering rapist is for the resident to be home when they stop in for a shopping spree. It's actually not much of a stretch for these people. I've often said that thieves are as bad if not worse than murderers, because murderers often have some kind of reason for killing, whereas thieves just want something that doesn't belong to them and aren't willing to earn it and even worse will go as far as killing to get it.
Break into my home or try to steal my car and you're dead if I'm there. Call me fringe, call me radical, call me immoral. I'm tired of putting up with it. The police(apologies) are worthless at catching most real criminals. They are more likely to arrest me for my bong while investigating my burglary. End of story.
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» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: babs
» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: Where I part ways with liberals....
Posted by: Elmowilcox
Comments are closed-
Posted by: On the Border on Nov 14, 2008 9:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With that said, the man used as an example at the article's outset was the worst possible example. He is absolutely guilty of willful homicide and should spend the rest of his life in prison. Only in TX would they let him walk.
And the idea that he "felt his life was in danger," as presented by his attorney, is patently absurd. He was in his house, armed with a shotgun, on the phone with 911. The guy's a murderer and ought to have been treated as such.
No property is worth a human life. But if somebody's threatening another human life, this particular liberal will do what he must. And should that happen, the law ought to be on my side.
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» Rationality...what a concept!
Posted by: BreeMass
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Posted by: SteveO on Nov 14, 2008 9:42 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What happens when...
Posted by: bigremo
» You didn't read the article, did you?
Posted by: susanh
» RE: You didn't read the article, did you?
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: What happens when...
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: bigremo on Nov 14, 2008 9:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Knees jerking spastically....
Posted by: susanh
» RE: Knees jerking spastically....
Posted by: ellie
» Bellicose far left liberals...umm yes we can?
Posted by: susanh
» A sign of patheticness
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Knees jerking spastically....
Posted by: kungfuma
» RE: Knees jerking spastically....
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» Bang bang you're in prison
Posted by: BreeMass
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Posted by: BreeMass on Nov 14, 2008 11:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lives are worth defending with deadly force. Property is not.
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» Word of the day
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» Did you not read my post?
Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Did you not read my post?
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: A big difference between person and property
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
» RE: A big difference between person and property
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: A big difference between person and property
Posted by: babs
» RE: A big difference between person and property
Posted by: Elmowilcox
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Posted by: inprov73 on Nov 14, 2008 12:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: truthlover on Nov 14, 2008 1:11 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SHOOTING
and
KILLING?
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» RE: There is a BIG BIG difference
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: There is a BIG BIG difference
Posted by: truthlover
» RE: There is a BIG BIG difference
Posted by: Crazy H
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Posted by: Crazy H on Nov 14, 2008 1:54 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The GOOD NEWS about castle laws
Posted by: Elmowilcox
» RE: The GOOD NEWS about castle laws
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: The GOOD NEWS about castle laws
Posted by: Elmowilcox
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Posted by: Uriahz on Nov 14, 2008 2:19 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me say this plainly: Mr Horn committed premeditated murder in the first-degree, and it is a travesty of justice that he goes unpunished. His vigilante actions, while understandable, are both illegal and unethical. If you shoot someone and they go down but they don't die, it is MURDER if you finish them off. It is. It just is-- it need not be debated. When cops shoot fleeing suspects of property crime, they are punished and the city is sued, costing taxpayers millions. And yes, that IS in fact justice. Using deadly force when it is not necessary is MURDER. Vigilantes like Horn are criminals-- they just happen to be criminals that the uneducated and irrational masses refuse to convict.
Good gun magazines address this fact, and advise citizens to act appropriately and intelligently. It is very clear that a person should have the right to protect their life and liberty, with deadly force if necessary, and without penalty. However, when you go above and beyond what is strictly necessary to defend your own body or that of others, when you use force disproportionate to the situation, you are committing a crime, just the same as any other thug. If he had tased them, or shot them with rock salt or bean bags, they'd probably still be alive, and his actions would have been appropriate to the nature of the crime.
It doesn't matter if they 'might become rapists or murderers if given the opportunity'-- there is no way to know that. A person doesn't automatically give up their humanity when they steal something. Regardless of the likely absence of feelings of guilt and recrimination, willingness to commit property crime does not indicate predisposition to violence. Shooting someone as they attempt to flee the scene is the exact same as tracking down the guy who stole your TV and shooting them in the head at a later date. Unlike breaking into your house and stealing your stuff, that killing is the act of a violent individual, who not only has no respect for law and order, but also has no respect for the sanctity of life, a person who is an obvious danger to those around them, AS EVIDENCED BY THEIR ACTIONS. And those who support such action are also a danger to the community. They exist without rational thought, and are willing to kill for no ethical reason, and dare to call that 'justice'. They have become twisted, corrupted with hatred for the criminals they fear and loathe, so much so that they themselves are no better than the desperate souls they seek out their sick vengeance upon. These are the wretched creatures that have filled out lynch mobs throughout history.
Yes, Hunt is a perfect example in the case for gun control. Him and people like him are the reason countries ban private gun ownership. Personally, I am firmly against gun control, as well as absolutely for the right to defend oneself, but the responsibility that comes with controlling a deadly weapon MUST NOT BE SHIRKED.
Hunt is a murderer, regardless of whether or not he got away with it via the ill-thought sympathies of a jury in Texas. He should be punished, not by the barbaric vigilante 'justice' of a street mob or a lone gunman, as he himself meted out that day that he murdered those two immigrants, but by the measured, consistent, and collective efforts of our justice system.
I am asking that you be intelligent, informed, and responsible when it comes to gun ownership. Life is not an action movie. This is important.
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» Addendum
Posted by: Uriahz
» RE: Addendum
Posted by: aouie01
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Posted by: sirios on Nov 14, 2008 2:57 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 14, 2008 3:34 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think all of the energy expended on this issue should be devoted to improving taser technology to the point where everybody can own the equivalent of a phaser set to "stun". That way, nobody gets hurt or killed, but the criminals are stopped in their tracks, and stay knocked out until law enforcement picks them up.
If you can get 20/20 vision with laser surgery, the technology can't be too far off. Let's put our heads together, so that we can all live long and prosper, while the thieves rot in prison.
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» RE: Justifiable
Posted by: aouie01
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 14, 2008 7:06 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: lucius13 on Nov 14, 2008 9:32 PM
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Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Nov 14, 2008 10:20 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Joe Horn shooting controversy refers to the events of November 14, 2007, in Pasadena, Texas, United States when local resident Joe Horn shot and killed two men burglarizing his neighbor's home. Publicized recordings of Horn's exchange with emergency dispatch indicate that he was asked repeatedly not to interfere with the burglary, because the police would soon be on hand.[1] The shootings have resulted in debate regarding self-defense, Castle Doctrine laws, and Texas laws relating to use of (deadly) force to prevent or stop property crimes. The illegal alien status of the burglars has been highlighted because of the U.S. border controversy.[2] On June 30, 2008, Joe Horn was cleared by a grand jury in the Pasadena shootings.
Joe Horn, 61, spotted two burglars breaking into his next-door Vietnamese-American neighbor's home in Pasadena, Texas. He called 911 to call police to the scene. While on the phone with emergency dispatch, Horn stated that he had the right to use deadly force to defend property, referencing a law (Texas Penal Code § 9.41., § 9.42., and § 9.43.) which justified the use of deadly force to protect property. He stated that he was going to go outside and confront the burglars. As the burglars were exiting his neighbor's home, and approaching Horn's home, Horn exited his home with his shotgun, while the 911 Operator tried to dissuade him from that action. On the 911 tape, he is heard confronting the suspects, saying, "Move, and you're dead",[3] immediately followed by the sound of a shotgun blast, followed by two more.[4] Following the shootings Mr. Horn told the 911 operator, "They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!" [5]
Police initially identified the dead men in Horn's yard as 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston of Afro Latino descent. However, DeJesus was actually an alias of Hernando Riascos Torres, 38.[3] They were carrying a sack with more than $2,000 cash and jewelry taken from the home. Both were convicted criminals from Colombia who had entered the country illegally, and were members of an organized burglary ring in Houston.[1] Police found a Puerto Rican identification card on Ortiz while Torres had three identification cards from Colombia, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic, and had been previously sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999.[6]
A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.[3] His report on the incident indicated that the men who were killed "received gunfire from the rear".[1] Police Capt. A.H. Corbett stated the two men ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze and one of the suspects ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back. Pasadena police confirmed that the two men were shot after they ventured into his front yard. The detective did not arrest Horn.
The incident touched off protests, led by community activist Quanell X, that were met by counter-protests from Horn's supporters.[7][8][9][10]
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» RE: Some facts omitted by Alternet
Posted by: Life of Illusion
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Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 15, 2008 1:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He immediately phoned the police, who asked "Is someone in your house?" and George said no and explained the situation. Then they explained that all patrols were busy, and that he should simply lock his door and an officer would be there when available.
George said, "Okay," hung up, counted to 30, and phoned the police again.
"Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people in my shed. Well, you don't have to worry about them now because I've just shot them all."
Then he hung up. Within five minutes three squad cars, an Armed Response unit, and an ambulance showed up. Of course, the police caught the burglars red-handed.
One of the policemen said to George: "I thought you said that you'd shot them!"
George said, "I thought you said there was nobody available!"
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» RE: You can try this, this should speed up the responce time.
Posted by: Mel H.
» I never looked at it that way, but it makes alot of sence!
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 15, 2008 1:07 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Go find a neo-Nazi forum you jackass. That shit isn't even funny.
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
» That shit is funny. No amnesty! Wait your turn! End of the line!
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: macdon1 on Nov 15, 2008 2:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Only Some Have the Right to Defend Themselves
Posted by: macdon1
» The NRA does not address those people. They are indeed racist.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Only Some Have the Right to Defend Themselves
Posted by: Illiteratilumen
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Posted by: fsilber on Nov 15, 2008 7:28 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They _are_ equivalent phenomena. No law privileges policemen with a special right to use deadly force -- the law pertaining to their use of deadly force is the same law that applies to everyone. Unlike France, where gendarmes serve under martial law and are part of the military, our policemen _are_ civilians. We pay them to give full-time attention to problems that we could (but usually prefer not to) deal with ourselves. This is what it means when we say that policemen are public servants (as contrasted with those countries where police are servants of the rulers). This is what it means when we speak of practicing "self-government." This is what Abraham Lincoln meant when in the Gettysburg Address he referred to government _of_ the people, _by_ the people, and (not merely) for the people.
Anyway, if the principle of "better to free ten guilty men than to convict one innocent" applies to _any_ suspect, it most certainly applies to taxpayers defending themselves from victimization by criminals.
But if the criminals feel they are being treated too harshly, I suggest they consider going on strike.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 15, 2008 9:18 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» laughable
Posted by: Elmowilcox
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Posted by: donovan1983 on Nov 16, 2008 12:03 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That said, I do very strongly believe in the right to defend your personal safety and personal property, by any means necessary. Criminals thrive on knowing that their victims are essentially helpless and they use that to their advantage. I'm not a gun owner and am not a member of the NRA, but I very much support "make my day" laws, gun ownership, and concealed carry permits or laws. I don't see why a mugger doesn't deserve to get shot for trying to steal someone's wallet. And a burglar who enters a house or business very well deserves to be shot, whether it is in the immediate act of protecting one's self or to recover the stolen property after immediate danger has passed. I would hope that whomever is defending themselves would only disable the criminal rather than kill them, but if the criminal gets killed while committing his crime, well, he should have considered that risk beforehand. It's a certainty that if the consequences were more severe, there'd be fewer criminals.
Again, I don't support vigilante justice and I don't think defense extends beyond you, your family, and members of your household (if the crime happens in your home). If you see a guy robbing a 7-Eleven you don't have any right to go up and shoot the robber, that's the right and responsibility of the owner or whomever is working there at the time. And you certainly don't have the right to calmly walk out and shoot a couple guys in the back who robbed your neighbour's house.
The police don't really bother much with property crimes and criminals know it. The cops are too busy arresting a guy carrying some weed or ticketing someone who didn't signal when changing lanes than responding to someone stealing from someone's garage or breaking into a house. With these misplaced priorities, and the rather overworked nature of most larger police departments, citizens have to be left with some recourse to defends themselves and their property. Criminals should not be allowed to get away with "simple property crimes" or be allowed to roam around raping and killing just because government thinks only law enforcement should be allowed to stop it.
Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and property and those who infringe upon yours should very well be punished for it, and in a way that deters those who would consider infringing your rights to reconsider.
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Posted by: Dyolfknip on Nov 16, 2008 4:38 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had an inclination that Americans were socialized to believe "might is right" but I had no idea it was so pervasive. sick people! F***ing sick! Does the fact that they were stealing something justify that they were killed? Could you actually sleep at night knowing that you ended the lives of two people over material possessions? More often than not the only demarcation between "citizens" and "criminals" is a failing social structure and These kind of laws will only encourage people to bring guns along when they steal.
The threat and use of violence will only cause others to adopt those methods leading to a terrible "one up" kind of game and hiding behind the law for your murderous actions doesn't change the fact that you are a killer. If this doesn't bother you in the slightest I have a suggestion: stay inside, lock your doors, bar your windows and fawn over your precious possessions to which you attach so much importance and don't bother participating in society because your ideology will only magnify the existing problem. Truly, someone who can justify killing in this way was likely waiting for the perfect opportunity to do so.
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» If they stopped and put their hands up it wouldn't of happened!!
Posted by: Landbaron
» Like to see your attitude after you've been ripped off alot.
Posted by: Landbaron
» It's called suicide by homeowner.
Posted by: Landbaron
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Posted by: rob-bot on Nov 16, 2008 6:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GEM-592 on Nov 17, 2008 3:53 PM
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Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 18, 2008 12:32 PM
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Posted by: otto on Nov 22, 2008 6:44 PM
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