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Rights and Liberties

Why the Prop 8 Gay Marriage Ban Won

By Richard Kim , The Nation. Posted November 6, 2008.


The Christian right outmaneuvered gay rights activists when it came to reaching out to California's huge minority populations.
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Amid the honks and cheers of joy in the Castro and West Hollywood, there are quiet signs of anxiety and, as state election results come in, a growing sense of anguish. Something is not right in the Golden State. Even as Californians gave 61 percent of their vote to Barack Obama, a majority of them, 52 percent, voted to discriminate against another kind of minority -- gays and lesbians. For a brief window that began in the bridal month of June, California queers had the right to marry, thanks to a state Supreme Court ruling, and some 18,000 same-sex couples said "I do." Proposition 8 -- a ballot initiative that would amend the state constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman -- now says "You can't!"

As I write, the results for the second most expensive campaign in the country after the presidency itself are not yet official. According to the No on 8 campaign, as many as 3 to 4 million absentee and provisional ballots have yet to be counted, and gay activists are rightly refusing to concede until they are. But there is little reason to expect that those votes will tip the scales. Other numbers paint an even grimmer picture. If exit polls are to be believed, some 70 percent of African-Americans voted Yes on 8, as did 53 percent of Latinos and 49 percent of Asians; each of these demographics went heavily for Obama; blacks by a 94-to-6 margin. Los Angeles County, heavily minority, went 50-50 on Prop 8. These results have shocked gay activists, who knew from earlier polls, for example, that black voters favored Prop 8, but they were seeing much smaller margins, closer to 50 percent.

The easy, dangerous explanation for this gap, and one already tossed around by some white gay liberals in the bitter aftermath, is that people of color are not so secretly homophobic. But a more complicated reckoning -- one that takes into account both the organizing successes of the Christian right and the failures of the gay movement -- will have to take place if activists want a different result next time. First, there's the matter of the Yes on 8 coalition's staggering disinformation campaign. Ad after ad told voters that without Prop 8, their churches would be forced to perform same-sex unions and stripped of their tax-exempt status; that schools would teach their children to practice homosexuality, and, perhaps most effective, that a smiling Barack Obama had said, "I'm not in favor of gay marriage." This last bit went out in a flier by the Yes on 8 campaign targeting black households.

Obama indeed does not favor gay marriage, as he said during the primary, but he also came out emphatically against Prop 8, as a late TV ad by the No on 8 campaign emphasized. Mainstream outlets like the LA Times meticulously countered the other lies as well, but too little, too late. They had taken root in many communities of color, and once lodged, proved difficult to dislodge.

This was always the intent of the Yes on 8 campaign. For years, the California Christian right apparatus, long hampered by their nativism and racism, had been unable to make inroads into the state's brown, yellow and black populations -- a demographic goldmine in a state that is more than 50 percent minority and growing. Prop 8 may prove their gold rush. From the very beginning they bought up ad space in Chinese, black, Spanish and Korean media; they hosted massive rallies for ethnic Christians. The Sunday before election day, I went to Los Angeles City Hall for the most celebratory, most diverse rally I have ever attended; it was organized by Yes on 8 Chinese advocates.

But it's only in an organizing vacuum that bald lies and racial pandering find room to thrive. Gay activists, by most accounts, were simply outmaneuvered. Andrea Shorter, a black lesbian volunteer for the No on 8 campaign, told me that the outreach to the African-American community began in earnest a week ago. "What's happened is that there's been an outcry from communities of color, including African-American communities, who say, 'Include us!' Now there's a GOTV strategy, but for some it seems last minute," she said in an interview before the election. Another No on 8 activist, Karin Wang, told me at the City Hall rally that when Asian Pacific Islander groups went to buy ads in Chinese and Korean newspapers, they were informed that the Yes on 8 had been renting space for weeks.

Many gay leaders, especially those less central to the No on 8 efforts, told me that such disorder was endemic to gay efforts at large. "The campaign doesn't seem to have got its act together until a few weeks ago. It wasn't clicking. It wasn't raising money. It didn't have good ads on the air," says Rafael Mandelman of the San Francisco LGBT Democratic Club. He laments, in particular, the absence of gay couples in No on 8 materials, which mainly depicted straight celebrities and elected officials. That's a choice that was strangely mirrored by the Yes on 8 campaign, which put not anti-gay hate but heterosexual love -- its sanctity and the threat to it -- at the center of its message. At the City Hall rally on Sunday, the loudest cheers were for a young, straight Chinese couple who had exchanged their vows in front of the crowd. Their marriage, they hoped, would be made "safe" by Prop 8. It certainly was celebrated.

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Why? Because democracy and populism are inherently stupid animals.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Nov 6, 2008 1:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have a Constitution, both federal and nationally, that affords equal protection under the law.

A bunch of folks should not be able to decide to over turn that principle, based on skin color, based on hair color, based on height, based your lifestyle choices.

Prop 8 is a disgusting perversion of our Constitutional republic, and deserves to be over turned, in deference to the rights of everyone.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

At a time when the DIVORCE rate for traditional heterosexual marriages is at 50+ %,
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 6, 2008 1:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
it's amazing that some people will go all out to blame different marriage types as the cause for the cultural decline. Instead of worrying about more gay marriages, would these same people who voted yes to prop 8 in CA even consider finding ways to peacefully reduce the divorce rates of the traditional heterosexual marriages ? Besides, it's not as if same sex couples are gonna harm you in any way. CA does indeed have a long ways to go in reducing societal intolerance although I have to admit they're not as backward as OK and even moderated states such as VA.

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» addendum.... Posted by: maddasein
» RE: addendum.... Posted by: maxpayne
Ironic isn't it???
Posted by: RosieRivetor on Nov 6, 2008 1:53 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it ironic that the black population over all, so long held back and devalued would turn around and treat another minority group in a way that has hurt them for centuries. They are hypocrites considering that marriage is not necessarily a staple of that community nor are stable families. They also might remember that beside them in the 1960's were gay activists fighting for their cause and now they sell them out. When you change the language of the Constitution to include discrimination for any group, you open it up to change for all groups. This is what the Nazi's did in Germany and the black community better watch their backs cause the moral majority is coming after them next. And this time, no one will be on your side. Shame on all of you who voted Yes. This will be overturned but the renewed hatred that will result from your actions will not be for a much longer time.

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» RE: RosieRivetor Posted by: munchkinpup
» RE: Ironic isn't it??? Posted by: Tatarize
» Dear Rosie, Posted by: Kym525
It's a long road
Posted by: shoosta on Nov 6, 2008 2:45 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As seen throughout history, civil and human rights are not easily won. As a Californian, I watched the endless TV spots financed by the yes on 8 campaign. Virtually all of those spots were wrapped around misleading statements and outright lies. As we've all witnessed over the past 8 years, it is so very easy to mislead and so very difficult to bring out the truth. I think that part of the reason is that we all have prejudices and carry beliefs and opinions that have no foundation in reality. When others play upon those beliefs or prejudices, we feel a sense of vindication. Those that have a predatory bent, like the folks that perpetuate the lies and fears regarding a group of people, are in their comfort zone. I think that many who voted in favor of prop. 8 did not even realize the harm they were doing or the hate in which they are now participating. It's those people that we need to reach out to, as in the days of the civil rights movement. It's not over until all people have equal rights.

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» RE: It's a long road Posted by: KRC
» RE: It's a long road Posted by: L33tminion
» RE: It's a long road Posted by: KRC
» RE: It's a long road Posted by: munchkinpup
Hmmm, I can see the author's point, but...
Posted by: Radi on Nov 6, 2008 3:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see what the author is saying, we're often remiss in targeting racial minorities with the message that queers should have civil rights too. We fuck that up with many progressive messages: anti-war, climate change, etc.

I guess I find it a little insulting that we're basically being called racially insensitive because we find it difficult to know where to fight these battles. When we're being attacked by the Mormon church (seriously white, ya know), it's obvious to strike back broadly.

Saying that liberal white gays messed up by not taking ads out in chinese and korean is one thing. But what about the people of color who are engaged in this struggle, as well? Should we blame them, too? Or can we recognize that it's not always peachy for queers to go back to their racial/language/religion based communities and ask for acceptance (and I mean ALL of us)?

We're not born with our gayness showing. We don't have an immediate constituency. We have to find it and create that solidarity in order to fight together. And it's increasingly obvious that we're some of the last folks that can be openly discriminated against. I guess the movement falls into a trap of assuming that groups which have historically had to fight for civil rights will be sympathetic to our demands.

We lost because the gay minority didn't reach the racial minorities.
And because the Christian majority appealed to the weird fears of it's populace.
And because there are still loads of bigots out there who think we're not worth equal protection under the law.

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
RE: Try Jesus Christ for crimes against humanity.
Posted by: johnbradleycopeland on Nov 13, 2008 12:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK!I'm for it! Where do I sign?

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Why Blacks Voted Yes On Prop 8
Posted by: DarrellSwain on Nov 6, 2008 4:36 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because when it comes down to it, this is not a civil rights issue. By placing this issue on the same level of the civil rights movement of the sixties and seventies, frankly, its a slap in the face to all that African Americans had to suffer through. Their's is not a choice.

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» Amen Posted by: VMRH
» Offensive to gays Posted by: YogiBear
» Rinco, you are so off-base Posted by: Kym525
» Proof Posted by: YogiBear
» Amen Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Why Blacks Voted Yes On Prop 8 Posted by: johnbradleycopeland
Proposition 8, Marriage And Gay Rights
Posted by: rinco on Nov 6, 2008 5:09 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think the Right outmaneuvered the Left. I think the Left defeated itself by never putting forward an honest case FOR same sex marriage. I don't believe such a case exists. As someone who believes in traditional values, I'm not anti-gay or a homophobe. I believe all people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. But I also believe marriage is between a man and a woman and it is the building block of our society, the family. And most Americans want it kept that way. They do not want a small minority to redefine the meaning of marriage.

The Yes on 8 side was multi-confessional, multi-ethnic and had people of all persuasions who agree on what marriage means. There was no attack on gay people. Every one agrees that domestic partnerships and benefits should not be touched. And they won't be. Those of us who believe in marriage ask for true respect and tolerance for our beliefs. I am a let and let live person in that I want other people to live their own lives. But I don't want them to force their lifestyle upon me. That is how the heterosexual American majority accepts their gay and lesbian neighbors.

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» WOW! Posted by: mjglow
» Well Said. Posted by: VMRH
» I got some bad news for you, dude: Posted by: hurricane hugo
Prop 8 may have passed...
Posted by: Starfall Deception on Nov 6, 2008 6:47 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...but there were a number of laws on the ballot in several different states that would have restricted women's reproductive rights. And they ALL failed to pass.

Now, I'm sad that Prop 8 fell through, but I feel proud that traditionally red states in the west voted down these anti-women's rights laws.

Between that and Obama willing by a landslide, I'm not too upset. It might not be tomorrow, but gay marriage will eventually fall through.

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» RE: Prop 8 may have passed... Posted by: Starfall Deception
» Actually Posted by: VMRH
Something good did come from Obama running for Prez
Posted by: acd333 on Nov 6, 2008 7:32 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The timing is perfect. Prop 8 pops up and a black candidate is running. 70% of black voters voted YES :) on Prop 8. I just wish the black community and other minorities would vote on issues, because they believe in family values and in God. Nearly all of the Latin community is Catholic which should be Pro-LIFE. I know their desire to be good Christians is greater than their desire for a free hand out. They would rather worship God, than money, so why would minorities vote Democratic? Prop 8 proves that minorities have conservative values, but yet they elect the liberal elite.

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» let me help you out there, acd! Posted by: hurricane hugo
The Ban won because the voters wanted it.
Posted by: lindat on Nov 6, 2008 7:34 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Simple as that.

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Religious Food Drive Boycott
Posted by: GayandInvolved on Nov 6, 2008 11:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we gays are approached by religious groups to donate for food drives and giving trees, WHY would we want to give to those who will in turn GIVE to those who were organized to support Prop 8?? I would like to see a national boycott of such things since the money spent by the churches COULD HAVE GONE to buy alot of turkeys this Thanksgiving. I will keep MY discretionary income in MY pocket and donate to homeless gay youth kicked out of their homes by their family-value families!!

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» RE: eligious Food Drive Boycott Posted by: RudeDude42
The answer is simple
Posted by: doctorsquared on Nov 7, 2008 12:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To paraphrase Bill Clinton, "it's the religion, stupid!" If I had a nickel for every time I heard a devoutly religious minority person say something like, "it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" with regard to these types of ballot initiatives, well, then I wouldn't be worried about my student loans anymore.

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Oh please!
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 7, 2008 2:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Biased advertising? "Include us!"?

What a load of whiny crap. Those 70% of blacks deserve full resonsibility for their vote, as do the respective proportions of other groups, including whites. Nobody has to "reach out" to your "community" for you to do the right thing, or to stop you from doing the wrong thing. And if you believe what you see on TV commercials, you're an idiot.

Good point about Obama and Prop 8, though. It's a critical point about all of this stuff: You don't have to believe in gay marriage, gay love, gay sex, Broadway shows, or interior decorating to see that none of this has to do with being gay. It's about individual rights and not meddling in other people's personal lives. You don't have to believe in a particular religion to believe in freedom of religion.

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» RE: Oh please! Posted by: RudeDude42
» RE: Oh please! Posted by: Libsrule
Divisive and Irresponsible Reporting
Posted by: iwanarok on Nov 7, 2008 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of these articles in regards to the November 4th poll results, is a fool at best! I am never surprised at the self conceit that journalists apply when they excercise poor judgement and laziness in their reporting and writing! I am only going to use one example in my protest of the Author and this website for it's erroneous reporting! AlterNet.com Headline: The Christian Right outmaneuvers and Defeats Gay Rights Supporters!" The reporter goes on to say that "something is wrong in California!" These statements are absolutes, and they are wrong! The article actually proves that these statements are wrong by actually reporting a fact! 61 percent of California voted for Obama, and 52 percent voted to pass Prop 8 with their YES vote! Those statistics prove that the Author is wrong, and obviously BIAS!! It was the average of all Californians who voted, not THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT! California is certainly not 52 percent "Christian!" The so called Christian Right makes up only 10 percent of the entire US. So how could it be relatively possible that the 52 percent vote in California was "The Christian Right?" This is an example of writing used to deceive and create dissention and conflict. The Nazi party used deceptive media tactics, and look what they caused through their deceit, irresponsibility and intolerance. I am not married, I have 5 children, and my girlfriend and I have been living together for 5 years. We are married in Love and Devotion to one another! Our faith is of a true foundation of faith. One Creator, Father of All, and full of Love and Compassion. I am most definitely not a so called Christian! I don't feel one way or the other about a persons personal choice in a Love relationship! HOWEVER, I am offended by deceptive and divisive reporting! I voted YES on 8, for the simple fact that it opens the door for a massive influx of deceptive Marital Contracts that would put an additional, unnecessary and unneeded strain on State, Federal and Private Benefits Programs. It would be wrought full of abuse, and add an overwhelming strain to an already weighted issue in Government and Business! Does that make me "Christian Right?" NO WAY! It just says that I have common sense along with the majority of California Voters, and that the Author is actually full of bull! If your in love, be in love. Just don't make a case out of it. Love and intimacy are a private matter. Sit down, shut up and enjoy one another. More government involvement and regulation, is simply folly! Just like AlterNet reporting!

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JC
Posted by: jerseypaws on Nov 7, 2008 9:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sorry if anyone takes offense, but the fact is that the christian right was able to scare their proponents easier. I think an awful lot of them, by the nature of their blind faith in anything their churches tell them, are not ones to value critical thinking. Also, there seems to be many who have no idea of the difference between civil marriage - the one that EVERYONE has a right to - and religious marriage which is a church ritual. This vote really blurred the lines between the secular (the state) and the religious, which is why the founders were so right in wanting the two kept seperate. This was a matter of human rights that should have never been the subject of a vote.

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Protecting Families???
Posted by: LoriGayFamily on Nov 7, 2008 10:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Prop 8 was largely won by out-of-state money and door to door soldiers from the Mormon church. Please go to
http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/#petition as part of a grassroots effort to get the Mormon (LDS) church tax exempt status revoked. I hate that Prop 8 passed, hate that my son cried and asked if we could no longer live as a family, and while taking this effort is not satisfying enough, it is a start. "Follow the money" was the phrase in "All the President's Men" which led to the downfall of corruption - let's all do the same here. The Mormon church's activities, often underhanded, must be understood, must be stopped. Taking away their tax exempt status is the first step - if they're largely responsible for spreading the lies, the least we can do is spread the truth.

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» RE: Protecting Families??? Posted by: maestra
» RE: Protecting Families??? Posted by: clvngodess
To all the supporters of Prop 8
Posted by: Kym525 on Nov 7, 2008 11:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At one point in time, it was against the law for people of different races to marry. The Bible was used--as it is used now--to justify why "god" didn't want the races to mix. People said things like "I believe in equality but I don't want that race-mixing stuff shoved down my throat" or "Their lifestyle is wrong" or "I don't want my children taught that blacks and whites marrying is okay." These people believed that race-mixing was a communist plot to destroy white America and that black men would be rushing to get themselves their "sacred" white women.

The same rhetoric being used against gays and lesbians is the SAME rhetoric used against interracial marriage. This time these people think children are the targets of gays and lesbians.

Mildred and Richard Loving had to literally petition the court for the right to love and marry a person of THEIR choosing. On June 12, 1967, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that, “The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men,” a “basic civil right.”

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how gay marriage personally affects THEIR lives, because mine is just peachy-keen, thank you very much. And bearing in mind that we straight people have done a pretty crappy job, if a 50% divorce rate is any indication, then perhaps gays and lesbians can show us how to do it right. I also find it somewhat ironic that so-called "conservatives" are always talking about less government interference in our lives, and yet don't seem to have a problem trying to legislate personal choices they don't like. I call that HYPOCRISY!

This is Mildred Loving's statement from 2007: "Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don’t think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the “wrong kind of person” for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people’s religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people’s civil rights.

I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard’s and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about."

For my fellow black people, BE WARNED: When you deny basic human rights to one group, yours are no longer safe either, and a black president--as much as I respect Obama--isn't going to save us.

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jay kraft
Posted by: krautie11 on Nov 7, 2008 12:50 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
hey einstein,

if the christian right is so all-powerful in its propaganda, why didn't republicans have any success at the polls? stop pretending that blacks and other minorities are helpless, dimwitted tools. face it, they just don't support gay marriage.

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» Yep Posted by: Philip Newton
And please, stop singling out black people
Posted by: Kym525 on Nov 7, 2008 1:39 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I understand the pain and the anger the gay and lesbian community feels at this moment. I share your pain and dismay and it made an awesome moment in this country's history a little sobering.

But stop hating on black folk! We weren't the ONLY group that shares the blame in this. Latinos, whites, asians--the traditionalists in these groups also voted for Prop 8!

Yes, there were a lot of blacks who voted for Prop 8--and not because they hate you--the proposition was confusing to many that I talked to, and that was obviously done purposely. Granted, there are members of the black community that oppose homosexuality--one reason we have such high rates of HIV/AIDS and the "down low", so it's obvious that we have work to do internally. Under the radar, this work is being done, but like anything else, it takes time. By the way, are you aware that Rev. Cecil Williams of Glide Memorial Church in SF has a very large gay and lesbian congegation and he was vocally AGAINST Prop 8

However, the white gay and lesbian community has its own share of race and bias, and seldom does that get talked about. I have gay male friends who've shown me personals that are so offensive--that they don't want black men, or that they do because of penis size. Gay men of color have told me of clubs they feel ostracized from going to because they are treated shabbily. There's the infamous Michigan Womyn's Festival that does not allow transgendered women to attend--so maybe you might want to clean your own house before criticising the mess in ours!

The bottom line is that division is detrimental here. Keep fighting and marching and this good sista will stand with you because it's RIGHT!!!

Peace!

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The protests continue
Posted by: RoamingLA on Nov 7, 2008 11:24 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Big protest rally Saturday Nov.8 at 6pm in LA at Sunset Junction. Info at www.afterprop8.org.

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Religious double standard
Posted by: georgiaorwell on Nov 7, 2008 11:57 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I still think it's possible a percentage of voters were confused about the 'yes', 'no' version with the wording with this initiative. Why can't they ever word something as simple as "Gay marriages will be granted legal status." When some misinformed voters voted yes, they might even have thought they were supporting gay rights.

A lot of people can''t believe CA passed an initiative against cruelty to farm animals and failed to support the gay marriage initiative. This is like comparing apples to oranges. Animal crates affect the animal's health, which is passed on in diseases to those who eat meat and eggs. Likewise, gay marriage promotes healthy relationships for those who practice it. Both needed to be passed, but it wasn't just the Mormons who poured time, money, and resources into defeating this measure. The Catholic Church and other fundie groups did their part in defeating this as well.

It's time we ended tax exemptions for churches that preach Christianity while practicing intolerance. I guess Big Love with the Mormons will continue to be practiced and that's ok, but let anyone else practice an alternative lifestyle and that's not ok. I don't know when or how, but this country needs to drop the hypocrisy it practices in the name of religion - wish we could send the Calvinists back to Europe and stop practicing 17th century Puritanism.

Boycott Utah (and Rome).

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
» RE: Completely ridicolous... Posted by: maestra
» RE: Completely ridicolous... Posted by: Azure23
CornetMustich
Posted by: CornetMustich on Nov 8, 2008 7:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Shame on CA(and Az & FL too).

It was just a few short years ago that President-elect Obama's very own parents would have been barred from marrying in some states in the US because they were an iner-racial couple.

But kudos to CT where beginning on 11/12 I will be officiating at the marriages(formerly civil unions) of same-sex couples now too.

Cheers,
Joe Mustich, Justice of the Peace
Washington CT 06793 USA

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» RE: CornetMustich Posted by: Aureantes
I think it was the right thing to do,
Posted by: bitsfick on Nov 8, 2008 1:56 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
because it will end up in front of the US supreme court. And as Mark Twain said the Supreme court votes their conscience, but they follow the election returns. In case you hadn't noticed Obama has a mandate, not only from America, but the world, if the supremes vote against gay marriage they run the risk of saying to world we condone intolerance. There is a new day a dawning, and I don't think they are willing to risk the fall out from that kind of dissension..

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Time to overturn prop 8
Posted by: pho on Nov 9, 2008 2:27 AM   
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This is ridiculous...time to overturn this one!

reverse 8 now

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Minorities
Posted by: Shadow8 on Nov 9, 2008 7:51 AM   
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The reasons minorities voted against gay marriage are simple: religion and bigotry. The religion aspect is easy to figure out. The bigotry aspect maybe not so much. When a group is marginalized they look for not only equity they look for someone else to marginalize. By deflecting bigotry against them to another group they can lessen the impact of it against them.

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What A Bizarre Idea To Start Out With ...
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Nov 10, 2008 1:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
putting minority rights on a referendum. It only leads to mob rule. Democracy is not two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.

I wonder what the result would have been if Black rights were put to the vote in the old slave states. Probably all those Obama voters down there would have lost their right to cast any ballot at all.

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7 reasons why gays shouldn't marry
Posted by: YogiBear on Nov 10, 2008 2:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people cannot get legally married because the world needs more children.

2. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.

3. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and it hasn't changed at all: women are property, Blacks can't marry Whites, and divorce is illegal.

4. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are always imposed on the entire country. That's why we only have one religion in America.

5. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people makes you tall.

6. Children can never succeed without both male and female role models at home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

7. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to cars or longer lifespans.

http://grove.ufl.edu/~ggsa/gaymarriage.html

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A New Approach to Same-sex Marriage Legislation
Posted by: Dayaan on Nov 10, 2008 1:34 PM   
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My proposal would mean a change in our current laws, but if same-sex marriage proponents want change, then the lawyers involved should look into this, perhaps using European legislation as a model.
I believe that the government should no longer be involved in any union called 'marriage'. In America, religious ceremonies have a legal, governmental component; ministers etc. must be licensed by the state in order to perform legal marriages. Let's separate church and state. Let the various religions mandate who can be married in their churches, synogogues or mosques and call that a marriage. If two individuals want to have the current legal benefits of marriage (health-care, death benefits, divorce laws etc.) then they must also have a civil union that guarantees those legal rights and privileges. We currently have religious annulments and governmental divorces: Catholics can legally divorce, but the Catholic church does not recognize the dissolution of the marriage unless an annulment is granted by the church. Orthodox Jews have similar restrictions.
The "Defense of Marriage Act" and similar proposed legislation effectively imposes a particular religious definition of marriage on all citizens which is against what our founding fathers intended when the Constitution was put together.
Following my proposal, civil unions would confer all the current 'marital' rights on the two consenting adults, while religions would retain the right to marry two individuals according to their guidelines. Church marriages would need to include a 'Civil Union' certificate (to replace the current 'Marriage' certificate) in order to maintain all of the current 'marital' rights and privileges. Grandfathering should be a part of any legislation: ie. marriages before such-and-so date would be equivalent to civil unions. There is no reason that a religious marriage by a licensed minister etc. couldn't also coincide with a civil union; civil union paperwork that would essentially be identical to the current marriage paperwork would be filled out and submitted to the government.
I don't know if this would require a constitutional amendment, but a lawyer versed in this area of law should.

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i will tell you why
Posted by: nofreedom on Nov 11, 2008 8:33 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
why did the proposition 8 won
i am staight i am also married and have one child
i voted against amendment 2
i also live in florida so for me to vote against it is like a spit in the ocean
i believe that all people have a right to marry
i think that gay rights activists should get to know those who are not against them and better those who are
i also voted for barrack obama but the victory wasnt on full force because so many people voted for marriage lol
when those who believe in god truly leave other who dont believe like me and anybody who is different alone and in peace then we can call this a free country

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i forgot
Posted by: nofreedom on Nov 11, 2008 8:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i forgot to say that i am also white
but dont worry obama won next time marriage will win too regardless who gets married gay or straight or two old shemales

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I support civil unions but not marriage
Posted by: tginmn on Nov 12, 2008 8:51 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe gays should be treated like human beings and with full rights. I do have a problem calling it marriage. Call me old fashion but I and many others who are not bigots just old fashion. I and many others would support gays having rights and obligations of a marriage contract if they would give up the marriage word.

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the problem is that outright lies are okay in campaigns & can only be countered at great expense
Posted by: counterpoint on Nov 12, 2008 9:18 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author correctly reported that the campaign used outright lies to scare the religious voters. While I think that some disdain is in order because you'd have to be to stupid or lazy to fall for some of this stuff the problem remains:
Apparently, in the US you can lie as much as you like as long as it's part of a campaign.
The only thing the other side can do is raise money to counter the allegations.
I wasn't raised in this country. To me this looks absurd.
Funny how they can ignore the "bearing false witness" part while focussing on some arcane crap buried deep among other bullshit in the Pentateuch no one (except some ultra-orthodox Jews) takes serious.

For an illuminating discussion of the homosexuality issue I recommend the respective articles on religioustolerance.org.

As another poster has already pointed out, the Mormon church has heavily financed the propaganda lies.
It is only fitting given the fact that this cult was created not that long ago by a convicted fraud who clearly concocted everything. Do people even know this history? Or are we too polite to point out that the emperor (aka Joseph Smith) had no clothes on, and that he was coercing very young girls to be his "brides"? No wonder he got killed by an angry mob.
Do you know the story about how they took hold in Hawaii?

Listen, here's a case of two religions, and ancient one that now has 2400 denominations (ie factions) on this continent, and a 19th century concoction, and they meet to defeat the developing norms and civil rights in a 21st century nation.

Can we please step away from having arbitrary mythology dictate our lives? How about reason and compassion, also known as humanism?

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strong beliefs on this issue in the comments
Posted by: whealeydj on Nov 13, 2008 3:10 AM   
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so those who are angry about the way the vote went need to see what if anything can be done to bring the issue back and how they can win the next time. It is an uphill battle since many people believe that homosexuality is immoral. Chicago study in the 1990s showed 3-4% are gay wheras the percentage of religious right is at least 10 times that. NPR, talk of the nation I think, had an segment with black lesbian who said the problem with lack of white gay outreach too little, too late. stop the vitriol and finger pointing and organize to do better next time.

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Nope
Posted by: Philip Newton on Nov 13, 2008 7:11 AM   
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Prop 8 passed because a majority of Californinans, including minorities, oppose the rewriting of marriage laws.

Just like the presidential candidate we supported -- Barack Obama.

Rewriting history won't change that.

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My Initial reaction to anti-gay marriage propaganda
Posted by: Bob Doublin on Nov 13, 2008 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My way of phrasing it is:

"Umm,if your marriage is SO FRAGILE that what two COMPLETE STRANGERS 2500 miles away do in their lives damages it SO MUCH, shouldn't you be seeing a MARRIAGE COUSELOR instead of a POLITICIAN???"

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Prop 8 results illegal
Posted by: cherylholmes on Nov 13, 2008 10:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it illegal for anyone to pass a law that is inherently illegal? The California Supreme Court said it's illegal in their decision. Religious freaks shouldn't be able to override a Supreme Court decision whether at a state or federal level. Prop 8 should be thrown out as unconstitutional...c

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You can still take action against prop. 8!
Posted by: CA NOW on Nov 13, 2008 1:40 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you live in California, you can tell your state legislators to pledge their vote against Prop. 8, should the California Supreme Court determine it to be a revision to the Constitution. The legal case against Prop. 8 is better than a lot of the stories out there are admitting. Here's some of the legal background.

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Of Majoritarian bullies and fascists
Posted by: socrates2 on Nov 15, 2008 12:02 AM   
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This is too freaky for words.
I am a Californian and vote. Love between two individuals is not limited by gender so any social contract that flows from that love and commitment should likewise not be limited by gender barriers arbitrarily created by a political majority.
The entire point of a pluralist democracy, which is the form our Constitutional government took last I looked, is to be governed by the will of the majority as long as the _rights of the numerical minority_ are respected.
Marriage is one more social contract in which the government becomes involved because there are rights and duties that arise as a result of this contract and government power is invoked to enforce these rights and duties.
What is the problem, my fellow Californians?
If your religion and personal mores tell you to politically discriminate against those whose theological or personal views differ from your own, I have two responses.
A. We have a very strict non-Establishment clause in the federal Constitution. That means, in essence, you _cannot impose your theology_ by majoritarian tyranny or governmental fiat on any individual.
B. If you happen to have a personal thing against same-sex marriages, that opinion is noted and respected, but using sheer numbers and the almighty power of the state to create an artificial, man-made barrier to the happiness and fulfillment of other human beings makes you a bully and a coward in the eyes of any civilized human being. And you are rightfully denounced as "fascists" and "control freaks."
You have made Adolph Hitler proud!
I end with the words of Archibald Cox, "It is the function of the courts to keep the rights of the individual beyond the reach of majoritarian tyranny."
Words to live by in our Jeffersonian republic. If any court, state or federal, has any integrity and is intellectually honest, it will once more find this type of majoritarian silliness un-Constitutional.
By the way my hetero marriage of three plus decades has never been threatened by GLBT, etc. relationships.
"'Nuff said."

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NO - The Christian right outmaneuvered gay rights activists….
Posted by: ds1st on Nov 24, 2008 1:25 PM   
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The Christian right outmaneuvered gay rights activist is not the reason Gay marriage is not sanctioned in California.

People voted their conscious in proposition 8. Gay marriage lost for a second time.

This tells me that “marriage is between a man and women” only!

a) NOT 2 women and a man
b) NOT 2 men and a woman
c) NOT 2 men
d) NOT 2 women
e) NOT a woman and a animal
f) NOT man and an animal

Time for the gay community to MoveOn!!!!!

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